Police, again

[Verbena]

Max, you knew she was severely mentally ill and both verbally and physically abusive long before you married her.  There was almost no chance you could have ever helped her, and you tried very, very hard.  

Please don't spend another minute alone with her. You literally may not survive this if you do.  She is fast approaching the point of no return and will be capable of absolutely anything.  

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

Max, you knew she was severely mentally ill and both verbally and physically abusive long before you married her.  There was almost no chance you could have ever helped her, and you tried very, very hard.  

Please don't spend another minute alone with her. You literally may not survive this if you do.  She is fast approaching the point of no return and will be capable of absolutely anything.  

That's what I am wrestling with now.  I actually just got off the phone with her T, to inform the T that an OOP has been suggested to me and that I have been working with DV advocates, and that an OOP is about my only option to protect myself.  T understood where I was coming from, but did let me know that W did reach out to her last night and again this morning.  

Just to edit this to clear op confusion - I haven't changed my mind about the OOP and keeping it secret for the right time to serve.  But I did discuss this with her T, and said that I felt a separation is necessary at least for a few weeks, with only limited contact through a mediator.  I'm just glad I can go through the OOP process immediately to protect myself, and then later decide when and where to have it served.

[Verbena]

Max, your wife reaching out to her therapist last night after she assaulted you and again this morning means nothing.  She is always calling her therapists.  Don't let that sway you against doing what you need to do.  Her therapists can't help her any more than you can. 

A "separation of at least a few weeks" and "limited contact only through a mediator" is what you're thinking now, but a few days from now you could be right back where you were just days ago--living with her, trying to avoid another physical assault, dodging her pleas to have a baby.  If you get the protection order served right away, you will avoid all that.  I truly don't believe this is going to get better.

I've never been in a situation anything like this, and I feel for you. 

[maxsterling]

Max, your wife reaching out to her therapist last night after she assaulted you and again this morning means nothing.  She is always calling her therapists.  Don't let that sway you against doing what you need to do.  Her therapists can't help her any more than you can. 

A "separation of at least a few weeks" and "limited contact only through a mediator" is what you're thinking now, but a few days from now you could be right back where you were just days ago--living with her, trying to avoid another physical assault, dodging her pleas to have a baby.  If you get the protection order served right away, you will avoid all that.  I truly don't believe this is going to get better.

I've never been in a situation anything like this, and I feel for you. 

Thanks for those words.  you are right, her reaching out to her T really means nothing, but explains why she wasn't harassing me all night on the phone.  And you are also right - IF I am going to meet with her and a mediator, serious boundaries need to be discussed.  This isn't just an "I'm sorry let's move on."

My feeling is at minimum - 1) physical separation for a period of time lasting at least weeks 2) she get involved in a therapy program that specifically targets her anger and rage issues.  3) Any more violence, verbal violence, or threats of violence will result in OOP.  I will not let her know I have that ready to serve, but I will. 

[Cat Familiar]

After being assaulted many times by my ex-husband, I was afraid of doing anything that might "set him off." He had threatened suicide and had used that as leverage against me leaving.

Finally when I realized I had to end the marriage and he was issuing his suicide threats, I called a suicide hot line and asked how to approach the situation. I had just buried my father so I was familiar with funeral protocol and choices. I was advised by the hot line operator to ask specifically how he intended to commit suicide and what he would like me to do with his body if he did.

So I did exactly that in an unemotional way and asked the myriad questions needed for a funeral. It was truly one of the weirdest moments in our relationship, but he never again threatened me with suicide. (However his next girlfriend called me and said he was holding her "hostage with suicide threats." These pwBPD just don't change their playbook.)

I felt in danger when I broke up with him and a friend took me to a shooting range and loaned me a handgun, which I kept under my bed for a year. I hated having it, but I was determined to protect myself and if it came down to him or me, I knew what my decision was.

There was a time when I came home to the smell of gas in my house. I don't know if he did that inadvertently or intentionally, but it was certainly disconcerting.

I managed to extricate myself from his clutches and now, many years later, he has a warrant for his arrest in this state, so I doubt I will ever see him again. He was arrested for domestic violence with his next wife and with her, fled the state before he was arraigned. (They keep doing the same things, over and over.)

So Max, please don't think this will pass and that she will miraculously turn into the person you can imagine her to be. You gave her plenty of opportunities. What you see is what you get.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm glad you can get the OOP and keep it secret 'till you need it.

Max, please post on the legal/divorce board... .or even ask the moderators to move this post there. The senior folks there know a lot more about protective orders and such things.

I'm a little confused about your gameplan, besides staying with friends for a few days--that one is EXCELLENT! Don't go home until you have a good safety plan in place!

It would seem to me that an OOP (when activated) with no contact for a year is pretty much the end of your marriage. You don't sound like you clearly are ready for that... .

... .do you want the OOP as a way of getting her out of your house? Are you thinking she won't leave otherwise?

Could she file an OOP against you first? I dunno, but my thought about what she *might* do is that she's going to reach into the same toolbox she always does, although she might get a bigger version than before. You've mentioned assault, overdoses, suicide attempts, verbal abuse as prior behavior.

I do not recall her making significant false accusations at you. I do no recall her taking legal actions against you (or anybody else). If she hasn't done such things before, then it doesn't seem very likely now.

One other part that should NOT be in your safety plan: Her T, Her P, Her other P, the MC.  Their job is her wellbeing, or your marriage's wellbeing, NOT YOURS.

You come first today, and this week. Involve people who can protect YOU. Only when you have everything you can possibly line up to protect yourself in order worry about what she needs.

     Hang in there!

[maxsterling]

Max, please post on the legal/divorce board... .or even ask the moderators to move this post there. The senior folks there know a lot more about protective orders and such things.

Good idea - Moderators?  Please move this if you feel it is more appropriate topic for another board.

I'm a little confused about your gameplan, besides staying with friends for a few days--that one is EXCELLENT! Don't go home until you have a good safety plan in place!

It's not really a game plan, more just "thinking out loud" about what I would want to discuss in any possible future meeting - in other words, just a mental exercise as to what I would need if I were to continue in this marriage.

It would seem to me that an OOP (when activated) with no contact for a year is pretty much the end of your marriage. You don't sound like you clearly are ready for that... .

   

True.  And likely could lead to her attempting suicide, doing something rash that gets her arrested, or at minimum moving out of state.  And yes, I am not clearly ready for the marriage to be over.  I put a ton of work and love into this.  I feel extremely heartbroken.

... .do you want the OOP as a way of getting her out of your house? Are you thinking she won't leave otherwise?

As a last resort, for sure.  Nice to know that option exists.  My preference would be for her to find her own other place to live for awhile, while things could be sorted out more peacefully. 

Could she file an OOP against you first? I dunno, but my thought about what she *might* do is that she's going to reach into the same toolbox she always does, although she might get a bigger version than before. You've mentioned assault, overdoses, suicide attempts, verbal abuse as prior behavior.

I do not recall her making significant false accusations at you. I do no recall her taking legal actions against you (or anybody else). If she hasn't done such things before, then it doesn't seem very likely now.

Yes, she could.  That's the main reason for me to file one ASAP, even if I don't serve it immediately.  The judge may see through her BS and dismiss her complaints, or I may contest it, but yes, she could take this route.  As you mentioned, I see her possibly threatening this, but unlikely she will go that far when she actually researches it.

One other part that should NOT be in your safety plan: Her T, Her P, Her other P, the MC.  Their job is her wellbeing, or your marriage's wellbeing, NOT YOURS.

For sure.  My safety plan are my friends, my T, the DV people I have been in contact with, my Alanon sponsor and friends, and my family. 

You come first today, and this week. Involve people who can protect YOU. Only when you have everything you can possibly line up to protect yourself in order worry about what she needs.

     Hang in there![/quote]

[formflier]

 

Max,

I think it is good you are talking to her T... .

If there is a chance for her... .and your r/s to get better... .it will be for you to step back... .and let her work with the professionals.

Watch her actions... .results... .not the promises.

My input is that everything in this thread is ok to stay on this board (for now).

This is a real life struggle of a guy who wants to stay... .

Max,

I see you have a post on legal... .they seem to be guiding you well.

FF

[F50Lurker]

Please, serve the OOP NOW - before another episode.  I have read all of your posts, Max.  This is never going to change or get better.  Please, please cut your losses and get away from her right away. We are all supportive of you.

[Cat Familiar]

Max, I know you're not ready to pull the plug on your marriage and I understand that. You've put so much energy into the marriage and trying to help your wife. What I'm wondering is what you imagine your marriage to be in the coming weeks, months, years. And I hope you ask yourself if this is truly what you want your life to be like.

[Notwendy]

I am not a moderator, but I think people can post on different boards. I mostly stay on this board, as I choose to stay, but sometimes I can relate to a topic on undecided or child of a BPD and will participate in that.

At this point, I don't see Max choosing to stay no matter what, but neither is he certain about leaving. I don't see him as completely decided one way or the other, but his situation is severe and he has to protect himself. Max I am not trying to read your mind, or tell you what you are thinking, I'm saying this as how I see it.

I see the posting on other boards as a way to get opinions and information, and to weigh all your options. I think that Max has found a lot of support on the staying board and may not want to lose that connection at a time when he is in distress.

However, since the staying board consists of people who stay, we can not be of much help to Max as far as the logistics of leaving and healing from this relationship. Max, since you are considering all your options, I think the other boards can also be of value to you.

Leaving is not a topic for this board, but really choosing means to look at all your options and choose, not feel restricted to one option. Also we have to consider the spectrum of BPD. BPD relationships can be similar in ways but one person's choice may not work for someone else.

I don't think it is a good idea to remain undecided for a long time as that can be a place to be stuck in, but I also think there is a way for Max to keep ties with the people who have supported him, even if it means we post on undecided or leaving to support whatever he decides.

[maxsterling]

I am not a moderator, but I think people can post on different boards. I mostly stay on this board, as I choose to stay, but sometimes I can relate to a topic on undecided or child of a BPD and will participate in that.

At this point, I don't see Max choosing to stay no matter what. I don't see him as completely decided one way or the other, but his situation is severe and he has to protect himself. Max I am not trying to read your mind, or tell you what you are thinking, I'm saying this as how I see it.

I see the posting on other boards as a way to get opinions and information, and to weigh all your options. I think that Max has found a lot of support on the staying board and may not want to lose that connection at a time when he is in distress.

However, since the staying board consists of people who stay, we can not be of much help to Max as far as the logistics of leaving and healing from this relationship. Max, since you are considering all your options, I think the other boards can also be of value to you.

Leaving is not a topic for this board, but really choosing means to look at all your options and choose, not feel restricted to one option. Also we have to consider the spectrum of BPD. BPD relationships can be similar in ways but one person's choice may not work for someone else.

I don't think it is a good idea to remain undecided for a long time as that can be a place to be stuck in, but I also think there is a way for Max to keep ties with the people who have supported him, even if it means we post on undecided or leaving to support whatever he decides.

That's the way I feel.  All boards on this site can offer advice, no matter what position we happen to be in.  I can also say that the decision to stay or leave is not one that comes easily or quickly.  I had previously made the decision to stay, still may continue with that decision (even though leaving is looking inevitable), but I think my best advice still comes from the folks on this board, because I am still living with and married to my wife.

[maxsterling]

I did just do something for myself - I switched my phone off.  No need to feel the buzz if my W emails or texts - I need time for myself.  If MC calls back - I can talk to her tomorrow.  Also gonna go to al-anon tonight right after work, then maybe take the day off tomorrow after my meeting with social services.

[Notwendy]

Your best advice may be here, except that we can not advise you to leave. Keep that into consideration in case you want to consider that option. The posters who have made that decision can advise you better than those who have not made it. 

Max, I think the most important decision to support is the one you make after considering your options.

[maxsterling]

Max, I think the most important decision to support is the one you make after considering your options.

"considering my options" - exactly.  Don't make quick decisions without considering my options!  And right now, one of my options is staying.  Another is a court order.  Another is some other kind of separation.   I posted about divorce or feeling "done" a few weeks ago.  I downloaded, read through, and partially filled it out.  But acting on it at that time may not have been my best option.  Is it now?  Who knows. 

[maxsterling]

I'm excited about meeting the family advocacy person tomorrow. I am hopeful it will get me clarity.

I called W's therapist to let her T know I was considering OOP and may want to talk to wife about alternative places to live.  Somehow W found out I called, and was POed.  SO, I turned my phone off, and left it in the car. 

The more I think about it and talk about it with friends and share with alanon folks, the more I am leaning towards just having the OOP served soon and wipe my hands of this. 

[Verbena]

Max, are you still at your friend's house?  Have you been back to your house to collect any of your belongings?  If you do need to do that, do you have a plan in place to protect yourself?  Lots of questions I know, when your brain is full of questions already.  

I hope you get some sleep tonight.   

[Sunfl0wer]

It is possible things have changed... .and my info is outdated or for specific location, however... .

Max,

You sound like you are not currently perusing the OOP because you have decided there are too many barriers, (the list you gave) then you state you are being a nice guy by giving her time. 

I am uncertain about the objective factual accuracy of your objections.

It is my understanding that there are actually few conditions needed for a "temporary" OOP, just that you are fearful and feel she is a threat to you.  After that... .the next step that has a bit more conditions, is the permanent... .or longer termed OOP after a hearing.

In your situation, it sounds likely that you can... .

1. just call the police after her next yell... .(does not have to be punches etc.)

2. Remove yourself from the home as proof you are afraid to return

3. Get your temporary order within 24hrs at the courthouse

This is actually simple!

The only issue you should actually be worried about as a barrier... .is if you do not undeniably state with clear certainty... .

1. You are afraid for your well being, your life

If you do not make this clear... .you CAN be denied.

You have more power than you are giving yourself credit for.

As for doing her a favor by being "nice."  You are doing her NO favor to "wait/see" for her next dysregulation and she is in jail for stabbing you, killing you etc.   removing her from her trigger: you, actually IS a favor.

Please speak to the DV pple... .let them hold your hand in the process... .see if someone can accompany you please!  I am worried!  

[Sunfl0wer]

An order of protection would be easy to get.  It lasts a year.  She and I would be prohibited from ALL contact.

I am certain that someone has likely advised you of your responsibilities re OOP.  Yes, you get one because a person may do harm to you, breaking the protection yourself, essentially nullifying it all and the progression to further protection of the non temp order.  You do have a responsibility to uphold your end of the OOP by resuming NC.  I am sure someone has told you that it means you also cannot reach out to her for any reason at all... .not her sickness, injury, illness, etc.  There is no "conditional" OOP,... .you have to remain NC in every way possible.  You also have to be willing to report that she violated the order, even if she calls you, txt you, etc.  (whatever the terms are)

I can only imagine the greatness of difficulty that this would be for you.  I am sorry that you are in such a tough position, likely feeling great pressure from many areas... .so sorry!

[maxsterling]

Verbena - yes, at a friend's house.  And oddly, she has done little to blow up my phone.  I'm wondering if someone advised her that the phone/email abuse could be used against her?

As for OOP - I will go in tomorrow with my mind as open as possible and get as much advice as possible.  Sunfl0wer - I think you misinterpreted me.  There is no "temporary" OOP.  What I mean is, I would file, it would be on record, paperwork done, and any time during the next year I could have her served with it.  So, the next abusive incident, The police could remove her.  Or, should the timing strike right in my brain, I could serve her.  It only means I have already spoken to a judge and gotten the OOP approved through the court. 

The reason to not serve her tomorrow - well - I am in a safe place "for now".  So i will go into tomorrow with an open mind, ask plenty of questions, and know that I don't have to make up my mind immediately.

[Michelle27]

Frankly, I think you've given her more than enough chances to change the behavior, or at least take responsibility for it.  Why wait to have her served?  Waiting just, IMO, puts off the inevitable next attack, and why wait for that?

[maxsterling]

Frankly, I think you've given her more than enough chances to change the behavior, or at least take responsibility for it.  Why wait to have her served?  Waiting just, IMO, puts off the inevitable next attack, and why wait for that?

Well, that's been the advice of all the DV advocacy people I have talked to. 

[Verbena]

And oddly, she has done little to blow up my phone.  I'm wondering if someone advised her that the phone/email abuse could be used against her?

This is interesting. 

If you had just left, but not called the police first, she would have almost certainly blown up your phone with verbal abuse and threats.  She claims to not remember tearing your house apart and assaulting you a few weeks ago when you had her arrested.  It looks like she remembers the screaming and name calling and knocking you down this week. 

[Cat Familiar]

You never even got the "remorse" part of the abuse cycle. It seems like she just wanted to forget it as though it never happened.

The remorse part was what always got me hooked back in: the promises to never do it again, the apologies, the "honeymoon phase." 

She doesn't seem to want or have the ability to take responsibility for her behavior.

[formflier]

Well, that's been the advice of all the DV advocacy people I have talked to. 

How do you feel about that?

FF

[maxsterling]

Well, I got the OOP from the judge. Relatively easy process.  I thought I would have to provide all kinds of proof, but my testimony was good enough.  I can have her served at any time.  She will be then escorted from my house (already determined the house is mine), and allowed to return one more time to collect her things.  She's allowed to contest it, but as the social worker explained - that rarely goes anywhere.  His experience is that these situations never get better, and looked at W's cycle the past few years of her life, and asked me what I thought it would look like 3 years from now.  His experience is that in cases like mine, victims will wind up having the order served eventually, usually sooner rather than later.

[CastleofGlass]

Glad you have this ready to go Max. Truly hoping good things for you during this process. Keep your head up and maybe find a good outlet to relax some.

[sweetheart]

Max I'm really glad that you have been able to put yourself first, and listen to professionals telling you to look after yourself because it won't get any better.

I hope you get back to your garden soon.

[ColdEthyl]

Max, everyone here has already given you the best of advice, so I just have hugs for you

 

[KateCat]

Such reassuring news, max!