BPD devaluation

[NCEA]

I think it's really important to learn to recognize distorted behavior early , especially small remarks designed to lower your self esteem, so next time it happens you can cut the pysco out of your life before real damage is made.

What remarks or insults did they use with you in order to damage your self esteem?

- while trying to make her feel better after a long day at work: "your teeth are yellow" (out of the blue)

- "you only want to enlarge your business to make more money"

- after being complement by a gay friend "not so much of a complement, she's gay"

- calling me flat out "an idiot" after some small mistake I made. Unprovoked, in the middle of an otherwise nice day.

- "you need space" after expressing my love to her.

[Confused108]

Oh Man yup delt with this crap too. I was told when I first did a FaceTime with her after seeing her 28 years later I looked like ___. Then when I would tell her I loved her at the end she woul just say I know.  I we spoke about her Exs I was the one who was putting them down!  At the end when she dumped me told me on the phone she never loved me ever romantically ... .just as a friend. I was told by her that she was diagnosed bipolar at 14. But the mood swings and her behavior was changing like every day to every min. It was insane. So yep I know exactly what your talking about. And to b honest  I didn't know anything about BPD . I wish I did bc my ex matches all 9 symptoms to be diagnosed. Just wish I knew about this sooner. She would have been history before she said a word to me!

[thisworld]

Oh i personally prefer advanced level double-sided compliment- insults that sound good but leave you with a bad feeling (luckily mother is a narc, and i worked on this kind of abuse, otherwise i could be devastated) . for these, you catch the victim  when their guard is down (sex is ideal for this). Then you come up with something like "oh these calves will be fantastic when you workout a bit", "wow baby, love your love handles" (holding my bum and pathetically insisting that my bum is not my bum, it's my love handles:)) once challenged, the stage of broken heartedness follows (a manipulative tactic known as feigning innocence) and you've gotta apologize for misunderstanding them and hurting them. Priceless.

İ once printed out a list of invalidations from a site about how psychopaths talk and rejoiced that every single sentence was used in our home.

[kc sunshine]

I just got this one from our last conversation:

"I'm having a much better holiday season now that I'm out of a traumatic relationship." (she was talking about ours, knowing that I am hurting from the breakup I didn't want)

[kc sunshine]

She also would repeat back to me things I would say in a cloying baby voice-- I guess she did this with other partners as well because she said her others complained to her about it as well.

[C.Stein]

When I said goodbye to my ex, the last thing she said to me when I asked her to please not forget me was ... ."How could I, your stuff is everywhere."  My "stuff" were the things I gave her.  Those literally were the last words she said to me.

I also told her how much I loved her on a number of occasions that same day ... .didn't even get a response, just a cold-hearted emotionless look.

[thisworld]

She also would repeat back to me things I would say in a cloying baby voice-- I guess she did this with other partners as well because she said her others complained to her about it as well.

Argh, ifantilizing, minimizing.   İ wonder what they would do if we played along and cried or something. Probably we would be told "oh' dont be silly". How ironic.

[MakingMyWay]

The one that got to me most was her telling me to shut up, even if we were talking in a positive way. She would tell me to shut up in the harshest voice. It usually wouldn't get to me, but I was so broken that it really bothered me. Still makes me shudder thinking about it. Another was calling me a child and saying I was "silly" which was intended to be a compliment. When I told her how excited I was for Christmas while we were still together, she'd call me childish.

[Confused108]

Unreal all these responses . I totally forgot that she said I became "overwhelming" for her and became obsessed with her too! I said I'm overwhelming and obsessed bc I'm in love with you? Sick my friends... .just sick!

[thisworld]

İ think these have an immediate effect (crashing your confidence) but a long- term one as well (isolation). Because some invalidations come in the form of "jokes", which we never get of course because we are too sensitive, we start resenting them in social situations, groups. İts onw thing to be insulted in the comfort of your home and quite another at a party with friends. Once we start getting scared of the latter, we are all theirs. Very dangerous.

[Mutt]

NCEA,

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

I used to react to my ex wife and her criticism and I do have boundaries with her when she starts to swear but once I understand the behaviors I don't attention to what she says. I think it's sad that someone is so critical and hard on themselves. I would want to live through life feeling so rigid and hard on myself. Her feelings about herself, projections and blame shifting doesn't define my self worth.

[Teereese]

İ think these have an immediate effect (crashing your confidence) but a long- term one as well (isolation). Because some invalidations come in the form of "jokes", which we never get of course because we are too sensitive, we start resenting them in social situations, groups. İts onw thing to be insulted in the comfort of your home and quite another at a party with friends. Once we start getting scared of the latter, we are all theirs. Very dangerous.

So true. My stbxh rather enjoyed backhanded, biting "jokes" in public. Crushing. It is very dangerous and isolating.

[fromheeltoheal]

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

Yes.  And remembering that we all split and project, and borderlines take it to the extreme.  Also, a handy way for a borderline to simultaneously deal with the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment is to be in control in the relationship: attack someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave while also controlling the emotional distance in the relationship to avoid feelings of engulfment.  Beat-down people are easier to control, and the prognosis isn't good for our self esteem if we go down that rabbit hole.

Interesting, I went on a date recently with a gal who started throwing out disparaging comments, giving me sht, making humor at my expense.  I don't mind humor at my expense as long as I'm laughing, someone is laughing with me and not at me and it's playful, but this gal went too far and I confronted her with it (New behavior! Woot!), and turns out she's not like that at all, she's a nice girl, she was just nervous because she says I intimidated her.  What the heck?  It's cool to be intimidating to someone gorgeous I guess, must mean she likes me, but point is, that was temporary behavior by someone I don't know well, easily resolved with a conversation; contrast that with a systematic attack waged by someone afraid, full of self loathing and flailing, the contrast is stunning, and even more stunning is I never would have recognized the contrast when I was deep in it.  Live and learn... .

[NCEA]

Wait ... .You don't know her. Of course she'll justify it somehow , "I'm nervous" but it might be a red flag. Keep a watchful eye. She's good looking and you're giving her free passes already.

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

Yes.  And remembering that we all split and project, and borderlines take it to the extreme.  Also, a handy way for a borderline to simultaneously deal with the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment is to be in control in the relationship: attack someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave while also controlling the emotional distance in the relationship to avoid feelings of engulfment.  Beat-down people are easier to control, and the prognosis isn't good for our self esteem if we go down that rabbit hole.

Interesting, I went on a date recently with a gal who started throwing out disparaging comments, giving me sht, making humor at my expense.  I don't mind humor at my expense as long as I'm laughing, someone is laughing with me and not at me and it's playful, but this gal went too far and I confronted her with it (New behavior! Woot!), and turns out she's not like that at all, she's a nice girl, she was just nervous because she says I intimidated her.  What the heck?  It's cool to be intimidating to someone gorgeous I guess, must mean she likes me, but point is, that was temporary behavior by someone I don't know well, easily resolved with a conversation; contrast that with a systematic attack waged by someone afraid, full of self loathing and flailing, the contrast is stunning, and even more stunning is I never would have recognized the contrast when I was deep in it.  Live and learn... .

[NCEA]

Do you have that list of invalidations to copy here?

Oh i personally prefer advanced level double-sided compliment- insults that sound good but leave you with a bad feeling (luckily mother is a narc, and i worked on this kind of abuse, otherwise i could be devastated) . for these, you catch the victim  when their guard is down (sex is ideal for this). Then you come up with something like "oh these calves will be fantastic when you workout a bit", "wow baby, love your love handles" (holding my bum and pathetically insisting that my bum is not my bum, it's my love handles:)) once challenged, the stage of broken heartedness follows (a manipulative tactic known as feigning innocence) and you've gotta apologize for misunderstanding them and hurting them. Priceless.

İ once printed out a list of invalidations from a site about how psychopaths talk and rejoiced that every single sentence was used in our home.

[fromheeltoheal]

Wait ... .You don't know her. Of course she'll justify it somehow , "I'm nervous" but it might be a red flag. Keep a watchful eye. She's good looking and you're giving her free passes already.

Nope, night and day.  After the pain ignoring my gut feel put me in I'm tuned into it full time these days, very handy for identifying when something is 'off'.  Had I done that with my ex we wouldn't have made it past the second date.  This girl is grounded and whole.

[NCEA]

Yes. Too bad that they ARE monsters (self proclaimed, she used that word, along with Nazi), so the tape is actually playing the truth. One thing she loved about me was that I was trying to teach her to accept herself . That was before I realized what she was. Biggest mistake of my life, that's the last thing she needs.

NCEA,

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

I used to react to my ex wife and her criticism and I do have boundaries with her when she starts to swear but once I understand the behaviors I don't attention to what she says. I think it's sad that someone is so critical and hard on themselves. I would want to live through life feeling so rigid and hard on myself. Her feelings about herself, projections and blame shifting doesn't define my self worth.

[bAlex]

I was told "you're too soft". For loving her and being good to her! These people are a joke! They fail at life by default! 

[NCEA]

I have another one, out of nowhere she called me in text by my middle name , which is how I sometime introduce myself to total strangers because my first name isn't in English. I told her it was a game, she said "no I just felt like it".

Honestly , BPD are simply women on turbo. All women are like this to some extent , it's just that disordered women go all the way because they can't control themselves. I know how it sounds but I'm saying this from tons of experience.

[thisworld]

I'm not sure that we are allowed to put links to other blogs. But if you google psychopathsandlove (a website) and write invalidation next to it, I hope it will take you to that site. Some of these are lines that we all use everyday but they are nevertheless invalidating. If this is more or less the only kind of emotional reaction you get systematically, that boils down to emotional abuse. I literally got every and each of them (and I'm not even from an English speaking culture, so it's almost like a universal script)

[C.Stein]

I'm not sure that we are allowed to put links to other blogs. But if you google psychopathsandlove (a website) and write invalidation next to it, I hope it will take you to that site. Some of these are lines that we all use everyday but they are nevertheless invalidating. If this is more or less the only kind of emotional reaction you get systematically, that boils down to emotional abuse. I literally got every and each of them (and I'm not even from an English speaking culture, so it's almost like a universal script)

I read that article and a few others.  It was very eye opening for me, both with regard to my ex's behavior and my own.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[thisworld]

You are welcome C.Stein,

I think these relationships teach us certain things about ourselves. In a previous relationship, when I realized how invalidating I could be, too, I felt guilt-ridden. All of a sudden, it all seemed like my fault. I think there was an element of perfectionist codependency in it. I had the chance to correct my style, actually. Nothing changed. My partner just started using this to say "you are invalidating, you are invalidating". I was manipulated with this for a while.

Are you guilt-ridden like that or do you feel validated?

I know that validation works with my BPD ex to a degree, it lessens crisis during communication. However, it doesn't solve problems beyond that. 

[wakingfirst]

Ha!  Thisworld, love the list of invalidating statements!  My ex was big on 'No one else reacts this way, it must just be you'. 

Another thing he used to say a lot, during arguments: "Yeah, I think we're about done with this." And that was it.  Argument over, because he said so.

[thisworld]

Another thing he used to say a lot, during arguments: "Yeah, I think we're about done with this." And that was it.  Argument over, because he said so.

Yes, yes and yes! In situations where someone else would obviously apologize as well! Double invalidation. 

[burritoman]

I heard a lot of it throughout the relationship, but the coldest treatment happened near the end.

"Yeah, I'm dating a woman." - In response to me showing sensitivity.

"You don't realize how much you suck sometimes."

"Be a man! Make a decision!"

"You'll be fine. In five years you'll be fine." - At the time my father was in an extended stay in the hospital, and I was coming to terms with his impending death. This is also coming from a girl who lost her father when she was young, so I figured she'd at least offer some sympathy to me.

[bAlex]

I heard a lot of it throughout the relationship, but the coldest treatment happened near the end.

"Yeah, I'm dating a woman." - In response to me showing sensitivity.

"You don't realize how much you suck sometimes."

"Be a man! Make a decision!"

"You'll be fine. In five years you'll be fine." - At the time my father was in an extended stay in the hospital, and I was coming to terms with his impending death. This is also coming from a girl who lost her father when she was young, so I figured she'd at least offer some sympathy to me.

I realised near the end and also after the breakup that she absolutely hated any form of emotional response. She saw any grievance on my part as weakness and it only put her off me even more. In fact I was shamed by her for feeling hurt.

[kc sunshine]

Oh man, did anyone else read the invalidating statements and see themselves in it? It was hard not to invalidate during her flashes of rage. I've got a lot to learn.

Invalidation is different than devaluation though, no? She devalued a lot. 

[Fr4nz]

Yes. Too bad that they ARE monsters (self proclaimed, she used that word, along with Nazi), so the tape is actually playing the truth. One thing she loved about me was that I was trying to teach her to accept herself . That was before I realized what she was. Biggest mistake of my life, that's the last thing she needs.

This is black&white thinking: they are NOT monsters, they are people with a mental illness.

Sure, among them there are bad people, but they are not monsters.

[C.Stein]

You are welcome C.Stein,

I think these relationships teach us certain things about ourselves. In a previous relationship, when I realized how invalidating I could be, too, I felt guilt-ridden. All of a sudden, it all seemed like my fault. I think there was an element of perfectionist codependency in it. I had the chance to correct my style, actually. Nothing changed. My partner just started using this to say "you are invalidating, you are invalidating". I was manipulated with this for a while.

Are you guilt-ridden like that or do you feel validated?

I know that validation works with my BPD ex to a degree, it lessens crisis during communication. However, it doesn't solve problems beyond that. 

I haven't given much thought to validation vs. invalidation.  Like most people I probably did a mix of the two and I do have guilt and remorse.  When she would freak out for no reason I know I tried to be more validating than not, but if she kept on pushing I probably started to be more invalidating than not.  I know there are things I could have done differently, not reacted in certain ways, spoken in more validating ways, been more patient and understanding.  If I had know then what I know now ... .

Thing is, regardless of how I acted/reacted/spoke the behavior of my ex probably wouldn't have changed.   Time after time I gave her the benefit of the doubt, a second chance, and she never learned anything, even after I made it clear to her what she was doing.  I could have validated her until the cows came home and she would still do the things that hurt me and our relationship.  As long as she is comfortable using my emotions against me to get what she wants (consciously doing it or not) the damage will still be the same.   Then there the other non-manipulative things she did without thought to the consequences, in particular the consequences to me.  It is a toxic combination that leads to nothing good.

A fundamental need in any close and intimate relationship is feeling emotionally safe.  When someone uses your emotions (love) to manipulate you (mostly through fear) it is almost impossible to feel safe with that person or to trust them with your heart (emotional well being).   Couple that with serving up your emotions on that persons sacrificial alter of self-centered need and what is left but pain?   She wanted so much to be emotionally close and intimate yet her behavior prevented that from ever happening on any deep level.  Over time I became more distant, more guarded as a result of this, and it frustrated her and me.  I stopped trying to communicate with her about it, probably because I was getting nowhere and I was afraid of destabilizing her and sending her into one of her 2-3 day bouts of self-loathing and depression.  At this point I am not sure if those times weren't also an attempt to manipulate me ... .probably a little of both.  Anyhow this is one of the things I regret and feel guilty for the most ... .the breakdown of communication.  While it shouldn't have been all my responsibility to communicate she clearly was incapable of it so it had to be me to initiate it.  When I stopped I let us both down.

The most basic of trust needed in a relationship is that of your emotional well being.   You need to trust the person you have given your heart to won't use or sacrifice your heart/emotions for their own benefit.  Even as I write this I think she is better than this and she is capable of so much more, yet the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  When it mattered the most (to her) my emotional well being was not even considered.  So am I a fool to believe she can rise above this type of behavior?  I believed it for 2 years and she didn't rise above it.  Can/will it ever change?  I still want to believe it can even if by all appearances I am dead to her.

Yes this may all be due to BPD or learned behavior, or both, but for her I honestly don't think she fully grasped the impact of her behavior on me or likely even cared.  As long as she got what she wanted the ends always justified the means.  I do feel in rare moments she can see how damaging her behavior is but it isn't enough for her to stop apparently or to be more cognisant of her behavior in the moment.   

Just about any action could be justified/blamed to make them right in her eyes.   During our last fight, which was a result of her attempting to emotionally blackmail/manipulate me once again, when I pointed out what she did the response was jaw dropping and pushed me over the edge in a big way.  Thing is I had pointed this behavior out to her right in the beginning of our relationship and numerous times afterwards and two years later she was still doing it and still didn't believe she was attempting to emotionally manipulate me into a course of action.

So I do and don't feel validated.  What I do feel mostly is betrayed and stupid for not seeing everything more clearly when I was in the relationship.

[NCEA]

What does it mean really mental illness?

Dysfunctional, out of control, enjoy harming others, lack of empty... .So what's not a monster here exactly? She used that word, not me.

Yes. Too bad that they ARE monsters (self proclaimed, she used that word, along with Nazi), so the tape is actually playing the truth. One thing she loved about me was that I was trying to teach her to accept herself . That was before I realized what she was. Biggest mistake of my life, that's the last thing she needs.

This is black&white thinking: they are NOT monsters, they are people with a mental illness.

Sure, among them there are bad people, but they are not monsters.