So Completely Confused 4.. The Next Generation

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hey everybody,

I replied to my last thread on the Deciding / Conflicted board, but I wasn't getting many replies and I'm in need so I figured a new thread would get more views; I apologize to the mods in advance if this is causing any difficulties (please let me know if you'd like me to do anything).

This is TheRiddler again, I thought I'd post an update.  (The original post is https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271227.msg12573862#msg12573862.)

I'm having a really rough time.  It's been about 1.5 years since we broke up and I haven't contacted her, and I was doing fine but for some reason or another I've hit a really bad patch.  (There was no formal NC but I wasn't in any mental state to communicate with her after the break up for a LONG while.)

I've been thinking about my ex again, and my crazed obsession with whether she and I will ever have a chance again, and I just can't cope.  I've been in touch with her mother, as those who've read my previous threads might remember I had been, and she's been dating though I don't know how serious any of it is (and she didn't know, either).  I'm dating as well, though I haven't been particularly happy with anyone I've found, but that's another topic.

I have an absolute OBSESSION over whether she and I could try for a fresh start some day.  It may work, it may not work, but I just would like the opportunity.  Of course, anywhere I go to get any kind of answers (my therapist, my psychiatrist, her mom, my family), can't tell me anything.  If I read internet relationship forums, I'm confronted with awful, horrifying posts about how, "People break up for a reason," and "one chance per person per lifetime," and all of that kind of extremist crap that puts me into a complete downward spiral, where I am now.  I know no one can really tell me, but there's so much information out there and so much of it is conflicting I just get sick and I can't function.

I honestly don't know if I'd want to be in a relationship with her; but I do know I would give it a try.  She hasn't attempted to contact me (though her mom told me my ex had looked me up on social media), I'm afraid to contact her because I'm in a really vulnerable spot.  I hear on these forums about people reaching out and others not, about boomerangs and cut-offs, and cut-offs who sometimes boomerang when they're able, and it makes my head spin.  I have intense OCD, and it's something I'm caught on.

I was wondering, gang: Is there a gentle way you could help me think about this to get unstuck?

[TheRiddler]

Hey everybody,

I replied to my last thread on the Deciding / Conflicted board, but I wasn't getting many replies and I'm in need so I figured a new thread would get more views; I apologize to the mods in advance if this is causing any difficulties (please let me know if you'd like me to do anything).

This is TheRiddler again, I thought I'd post an update.  (The original post is https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271227.msg12573862#msg12573862.)

I'm having a really rough time.  It's been about 1.5 years since we broke up and I haven't contacted her, and I was doing fine but for some reason or another I've hit a really bad patch.  (There was no formal NC but I wasn't in any mental state to communicate with her after the break up for a LONG while.)

I've been thinking about my ex again, and my crazed obsession with whether she and I will ever have a chance again, and I just can't cope.  I've been in touch with her mother, as those who've read my previous threads might remember I had been, and she's been dating though I don't know how serious any of it is (and she didn't know, either).  I'm dating as well, though I haven't been particularly happy with anyone I've found, but that's another topic.

I have an absolute OBSESSION over whether she and I could try for a fresh start some day.  It may work, it may not work, but I just would like the opportunity.  Of course, anywhere I go to get any kind of answers (my therapist, my psychiatrist, her mom, my family), can't tell me anything.  If I read internet relationship forums, I'm confronted with awful, horrifying posts about how, "People break up for a reason," and "one chance per person per lifetime," and all of that kind of extremist crap that puts me into a complete downward spiral, where I am now.  I know no one can really tell me, but there's so much information out there and so much of it is conflicting I just get sick and I can't function.

I honestly don't know if I'd want to be in a relationship with her; but I do know I would give it a try.  She hasn't attempted to contact me (though her mom told me my ex had looked me up on social media), I'm afraid to contact her because I'm in a really vulnerable spot.  I hear on these forums about people reaching out and others not, about boomerangs and cut-offs, and cut-offs who sometimes boomerang when they're able, and it makes my head spin.  I have intense OCD, and it's something I'm caught on.

I was wondering, gang: Is there a gentle way you could help me think about this to get unstuck?

[gotbushels]

Hi TheRiddler 

It seems you're having a rough time. Many of us are here hoping to support each other for recovery and healing. 1.5 years and obsession sounds difficult to undergo.

It seems from Cosmonaut's third quotation from you at this post, that part of the confusion is from the information that you're looking at. That might add to the uncertainty you seem to be feeling about how to handle the information about the disorder. There is a lot of strange information out there. I saw some just yesterday actually. Perhaps I can help here--here is the discussion on online resources.

Perhaps dealing with things in a piecemeal fashion would be easier for you TheRiddler. It seems from the previous thread that there was quite a lot going on. There is also quite a lot going on here. That's understandable. I'd like to help. It's hard going through all these things when you're trying to get somewhere in your life. It doesn't help when you're knotted or feeling stuck.

I'm not going to pretend to know what level of obsession you are feeling. Judgment-free, gently, and I'm sincerely curious:

Where do you feel most stuck? Can you describe it?

You mentioned obsession. That's quite a high level of want. Can you describe why and the feelings around it?

Perhaps looking at those would be worthwhile. If you have comments on Cosmonaut's links at the end of the previous thread, go ahead and add them here.

I hope you find peace from this struggle.

[C.Stein]

I was wondering, gang: Is there a gentle way you could help me think about this to get unstuck?

I think the first question you have to ask is ... .why?  Why is this bothering you now?  Why do want to reconcile?  What has changed with her that gives you the impression a reconciliation wouldn't end up the same as before?  What does she do for you that adds to and enriches your life?  What does she do that tears you down and emotionally damages you? 

These are a few questions you need to answer.  Hope is not enough here.  There is a critical need for realistic expectations for a relationship with a borderline.  Understanding what it takes to be in an intimate relationship with a borderline is crucial for any chance of "success".  What are your expectations here if you were to reconcile?  How do you see the next 10 years of your life were you to reconcile with her?

These are some of the questions I ask myself when I think about a "reconcile" even though there is no chance of it.  The answers have a sobering affect on me ... .a healthy slap in the face which brings me back to reality and away from fantastical thoughts that "maybe" it could work. 

The fact I have to constantly remind myself of is nothing will change because she won't change without help and considerable effort on her part.  This is not something I feel will ever happen with her because she is incapable and/or unwilling to face the truth.  It will not matter how much I adjust/change myself to accommodate her borderline issues, there needs to be adjustments/changes on her side as well.  Then there is the issue of trust and respect ... .not minor issues by any means at all.

How about your ex?  What is she doing to address her condition?

[TheRiddler]

I appreciate the responses, today was another set back.  I received a message from her mother that said that from what she's heard from my ex, she thinks we're two very different people.  She also said we're at very different places right now; my Mom took that to mean I'm still thinking about my ex and my ex is dating someone. 

I'm trying to date other people too, and for the most part the last 1.5 years haven't been spent ruminating about her.  Ex's mom also said in the letter she doesn't think my ex and I being together right now is in the cards, and all of this sent me into a screaming, crying mess.  Honestly, I'm calmer now and realize if she's seeing someone at the moment it's not in the cards, but my mind takes over and says she'll most likely be married to this guy, and every other horrible thing it can suggest to me.  I make it as bad as it can be in my mind, and I can't stop crying and screaming and carrying on.  I feel the most acute, severe pain I can't even begin to describe. 

The ex's mom also doesn't know she has BPD, as far as I know.

I feel in some way over the last 1.5 years I got by partially with the idea that she and I could have a chance at some point in the future.  I now feel that hope is completely dashed, though I sincerely hope I'll get people responding that I'm purposefully seeing the worst case scenario.  I find a weird solace in the idea that lots of BPD relationships don't last long, though I also feel that by thinking that way it'll make hers either end up in a marriage, or she won't get married but she won't want anything serious to do with me.


gotbushels:

I hope the above answers your question about the obsession, and you're right, it is a lot of want.  I can't explain it; I know she's not the best person in the world, but I'm not either.  I think it could work with communication.  Let me know if that answers your question.


C.Stein:

I can't tell you why it's bothering me now; it just came out of nowhere in a tremendous wave of obsession and pain.  I haven't spoken to her in quite a while so I don't know if anything's changed, and though I'm sure she realizes there's something wrong with her I doubt she'd seek help for it.  Yet, I feel this way.  As far as life enrichment, that's a tougher question because it's so tough to quantify.  We did argue (which I continue to completely blame on myself), but we also had quite a bit in common and got along more often than not.  Also, I feel infinite, just overflowing guilt for the breakup, that yeah it takes two to tango, but it was mostly my fault and I screwed up huge.  I tried everything to fix it once I was made aware of issues (she's a resentful waif) and it just wasn't enough, and I feel like a complete failure.  Again, let me know if I can elaborate.

I have an occasional urge to get her contact info, reach out and ask if she's completely written me off, but could I believe her?  I ask myself, "does she even have BPD"?  I wouldn't do that though because I'm in no mental space to handle more news I'll construe as bad.

I feel I screwed up really big guys, and I need real help.   I'm trying to think more positive thoughts, that she'll be available at some point and we can slowly start talking again.  I could really use some positive info, it's been a rough, rough day.

[Leonis]

Don't think about her!

Or, you may do dumb things such as having unprotected sex during the most unsafe day with her like I did. Then, you'll be wondering if you may have added another innocent soul to the chaos even though your ex claims that she's cutting all contacts off.

Don't be me. Go on and find happiness elsewhere.

[TheRiddler]

Respectfully, I'm not planning on having sex with her. 

I just want to see if there could ever be anything between us again.

[Meili]

Let's start here:

I haven't spoken to her in quite a while so I don't know if anything's changed"

If you haven't spoken to her in quite a while, how do you even know who she is at this point? Let's say that she has changed, that change has just as much chance of being for the worst as it does for the best. How do you know if she's even someone that you'd like at all at this point? What would you tell your best friend in this situation?

Would you remind your best friend that he said this:

I received a message from her mother that said that from what she's heard from my ex, she thinks we're two very different people.  She also said we're at very different places right now

Does that not indicate some sort of change?

I have an occasional urge to get her contact info, reach out and ask if she's completely written me off, but could I believe her?

I'm sorry to be blunt about this one, it's even worse knowing that you're having/had a really bad day, but I really know of no other way to put it:
Is it possible that after 1.5 years and not having contact for "quite a while" (what does that mean exactly anyway?) that you might actually have your answer to that question? Again, what would you tell your best friend in this situation?

All of the questions raised have been designed in hopes of getting you to look at the reality of everything and bring you back to the present. I know that it's hard. I know that the pain is excruciating. I know that these r/s get us all scrambled mentally. But, being in the present helps. Being MINDFUL can help soothe the chaos and pain though.

[TheRiddler]

I think that was a bit unnecessarily harsh, Meili.   If you're going to reply again, please be more tactful.

I always hear about recycles on this board, and now I don't know what to think.

I would also remind my best friend that this is her mom talking, and not her, and she herself said she was only guessing.

[Meili]

I apologize for being even a little bit harsh, I certainly didn't mean to be overly harsh.

Let's back up a minute. What is it that you want? Let's forget about her, what she may or may not be doing, and how she may or may not be feeling. Let's focus on you.

[TheRiddler]

I appreciate that.

Unfortunately, this is me at the moment.  I'm dealing with it the best I can.  I was fine for a solid year after the breakup, and this comes out of nowhere. 

What I want, is an opportunity to speak to her again when she's not seeing someone and I'm more centered, and see what could happen.

[C.Stein]

I can't tell you why it's bothering me now; it just came out of nowhere in a tremendous wave of obsession and pain.  I haven't spoken to her in quite a while so I don't know if anything's changed, and though I'm sure she realizes there's something wrong with her I doubt she'd seek help for it.  Yet, I feel this way.  As far as life enrichment, that's a tougher question because it's so tough to quantify.  We did argue (which I continue to completely blame on myself), but we also had quite a bit in common and got along more often than not.  Also, I feel infinite, just overflowing guilt for the breakup, that yeah it takes two to tango, but it was mostly my fault and I screwed up huge.  I tried everything to fix it once I was made aware of issues (she's a resentful waif) and it just wasn't enough, and I feel like a complete failure.  Again, let me know if I can elaborate.

I understand the feelings of guilt and having generally more good than bad.  I also feel guilt for my breakup when in reality it was a road she put us on about a year before I was thrown away and I did nothing to stop it.   While I accept responsibility for my part in letting her do this it was mostly her actions and choices that destroyed our relationship and me in the process.  Perhaps what I should feel guilty about is staying in an unhealthy relationship with someone who had repeatedly shown she did not respect or care for me, despite her words that said otherwise.  Six months before the trash bin I was holding on to futile hope when my gut was telling me that the last straw had been put on the camels back. 

What gets me though is the depth of it all.  In retrospect there was no real depth to our relationship.  It was a false sense of depth but when exposing it to the light of day it has become obvious that there was a fundamental lack of emotional depth to our relationship.  This wasn't always the case, for me at least, but as time went on the more damage her behavior did to me emotionally, the more closed and distant I became.  This brings me to enrichment ... .how did she enrich my life?  Like you, I struggle to answer this question and that alone speaks volumes.  Did she build me up or tear me down?  There were times when I felt she did enrich my life, bringing new experiences and joy into my life, being supportive and encouraging at times.   But there was always the undertone of fear and anxiety that never went away and that is something I must never forget.  Emotionally she tore me to shreds and that is not enrichment or healthy.

So how about you?  How thick was the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and why do you feel you are still in it?

[TheRiddler]

At the time of our relationship, I didn't know she had BPD.  But looking back, I think it was probably pretty moderate to heavy; I realize that sounds ridiculous.  I don't know, it's tough to gauge.  She did all kinds of things I mention in my previous thread, but a few highlights are the emotional blackmail ("if you don't marry me, maybe my next bf will", endless arguments, bringing up things I thought we'd settled on from the past to create huge, crying arguments around, belittling me in front of her friends (though I thought it was just good-natured ribbing at the time, I think back and she really didn't like me being the center of attention around her friends), and other things I'm forgetting. 

I feel I'm still in it because like my old therapist used to say (I'm not seeing her anymore), this relationship is unresolved to me.  I don't expect a BPD to give me closure, but I don't think I did anything bad enough to warrant never giving me another chance.  (Obviously it's not up to me.)  Don't ask me why I'd want another chance, I'm not quite sure on that myself, but that's something I'm working on.  What's more immediate to me, is just feeling like a part of the world has been shut off because I'll never be able to see her again.  I know that's dramatic, but it's how I feel; I know my happiness doesn't depend on her and all of that, but I'm just stuck.

Is reaching out to her when she's single that bad of an idea (her mom would let me know)?  I also don't want to give up any "power" I have by being the one to reach out, which is why I've stayed NC, so I guess I don't know what to do.  I know from extensive therapy and different doctors and such, I tend to respond best to practical solutions or information, if at all possible, so I'd appreciate some practical things I could do to try to figure any of this out.

[Herodias]

I think you need to start watching lots of u-tube videos on the subject of co-dependancy and magnetic attraction. You are "obsessed" in your own words and being in that place is really bad. It means you are addicted... .addiction to anything- even a person is bad. You would be wise to work on yourself, then if she comes around in the future you will be in a better frame of mind. I understand because I felt that way about mine. I still think about mine, but the longer time apart, the more I am able to put things in perspective. I was obsessed over mine and had it real bad the first time we broke up. I couldn't think of any thing else... .I ruined my own vacation, I couldn't eat, it was awful. Now I am so mad at myself for getting involved in the first place. Give it time and work on you... .you can't make someone want to be with you and why would you want to. Stop talking to her Mother... .you are only feeding her ego and pushing her away as I am sure the Mother is telling her that you are asking. Just talk it out with yours. Your relationship is unresolved in your own mind... .she seems to have moved on and when that happens, our egos are hurt. Work on you- I cannot stress that enough. Solve your issues now, so you will be better at relationships in the future. If you do not, you may repeat what you have not learned. 

[TheRiddler]

Hey Herodias,

I think that's good advice, and I am working on me.  The thing is, I have moved on in some ways, and not in others, so it's complicated.  According to her Mom (who wouldn't share what I'm saying with her, I know the woman very well), she thinks I've moved on as well.  It's been a year and a half, so we're both in different places.  I got over her once.  A year ago at this time, I was doing just fine 5 months after the break up.  This is a new development, and a set back of sorts. 

And to be clear, our relationship isn't unresolved, it's completely over; that's not to say another one couldn't happen in the future. 

I thought a lot of the time borderlines recycle; I've read that all over this board.  Is that no longer true?  I know it doesn't happen all the time, but it seems to happen more often than not.  I feel like I'm the only one trying to support me in this discussion with positivity, which is what I could use.  I give myself enough "harsh truth."  I don't want to be lied to, but I don't want to be crushed either, you know?

[Herodias]

Yes, these feelings come and go... .particularly if you haven't met anyone that fills that empty spot. They tend to recycle when they don't have anyone else... .so it may or may not happen. Mine did it in the beginning, we broke up once then got married then split up three more times... .the last one being the end. Things got worse every break up. I do not wish to go through that again and even with the knowledge I have here, I don't want to be with someone that embarrasses me or that I cannot trust at all. If I were you, as I have been there... .I had to stop focusing on the good things I missed and focus on the bad. We don't want to do that, but it is necessary, because that is the whole person. Focus on the bad and ask yourself why you want that in your life... .I think if you keep working on you, you will not feel compelled to have someone who is mentally ill as a partner and you will be able to meet someone you are more compatible with. You said you are "not perfect" either. None of us are, but is that a reason to settle for a bad relationship? It sounds like you feel like you are not good enough. It is good to be positive and look at reality.  Listen, mine would have recycled after getting another woman pregnant! What kind of life would that be for me? Reality stinks, but it is what it is, as mine said... .Keep working on you and you will be just fine. It's normal to have set backs in our heads.

[atomic popsicles]

I totally get wanting the opportunity to try again.  I know it feels like you are getting negativity, but most of the folks here have been through it, and realized it isn't good for them. I think you aren't there yet, and maybe you don't need to be. Who knows?

I'm new to all this, but I think we can be thrown back into any stage of grief at any time. I can totally see myself in your position in a year. You want to see if it can work this time. If you do that, can you handle the hurt if it doesn't? Only you know if it's a risk you should take. I can't take the risk, even in a year, and that is a hard pill for me. I know, though, that it will likely end up worse if I do.

 What are your goals for a relationship? It may be her mother is telling you that her goals are not the same. It sounds like you trust her mother. What did you think when you got that warning? That's a pretty strong warning. Even so, only you know what you should do. I hope you find some peace! I know it is so hard.

[gotbushels]

I have an occasional urge to get her contact info, reach out and ask if she's completely written me off, but could I believe her?  I ask myself, "does she even have BPD"?  I wouldn't do that though because I'm in no mental space to handle more news I'll construe as bad.

Sure I got these urges too. "Completely written off" sounds like you're a piece of factory equipment TheRiddler:) If you feel this way, that's fine too, but a more accurate description could be that she's in some part decided that the relationship (read, not "you" cannot give her what she's looking for.

She may or may not have BPD. Curiously, why would it be bad for you if she's diagnosed BPD?

I feel I screwed up really big guys, and I need real help.   I'm trying to think more positive thoughts, that she'll be available at some point and we can slowly start talking again.  I could really use some positive info, it's been a rough, rough day.

A lot of us have felt like we've screwed up at some point TheRiddler. Some serious, some not so serious. It takes time for pain to disperse--I encourage you to try to be kind to yourself. What are you doing to enjoy yourself? Self-care is one of the best ways we can help ourselves to heal. To skip this step can be self-sabotaging.


Did you get a chance to see the link Meili recommended? It's one of the best tools on the site. I'd encourage you to start with that and post if it's useful to you. Here's a related video on what you can look forward to.

gotbushels:
I hope the above answers your question about the obsession, and you're right, it is a lot of want.  I can't explain it; I know she's not the best person in the world, but I'm not either.  I think it could work with communication.  Let me know if that answers your question.

Sure, it does. None of us can be the "best" in the world TheRiddler, we usually appear somewhere in between. My relationship could have worked with communication too. It did actually, for a while, so I can understand your thinking. I don't think that's the way you want to be going though.

Would you mind defining where you are right now using this poll?

Also, which of the ten beliefs do you think is holding you back most?

Take your time. I'd recommend you start with the mindfulness. It can carry over while you're processing other things.

I hope you get some rest.

[TheRiddler]

She most certainly has BPD (detailed in previous thread), and it makes me feel better that she does because it relieves me of shame and guilt.

The idea about recycling is holding me back the most; if I don't have some hope, I don't feel ill get through this again.  People's responses about how she probably won't reach out scare me.

[Leonis]

The idea about recycling is holding me back the most; if I don't have some hope, I don't feel ill get through this again.  People's responses about how she probably won't reach out scare me.

Honestly, being recycled just seems annoying unless you can somehow treat her with indifference. Then again, if you could treat her with indifference, you wouldn't be in pain.

[TheRiddler]

Yeah, I can see that. 

[TheRiddler]

This thread is really helping me: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=156203.0;all

[TheRiddler]

Problem guys, need support

I don't have a fb account but hers is public so I was able to find pictures of the new guy on the guy's Instagram and it really hurt.

I think they've been going out a couple months and can't help but feel they're going to get married, then I'll feel she doesn't have a disorder and the demise of the relationship was all my fault.

I have a tendency to think up the worst possible scenarios and they scare me to death.

I feel I'm never going to have a chance, and I'm never going to get over this.

I suspected there was a guy so seeing him wasn't that big of a deal, but I still feel it's absolutely over, and I keep reading threads about how some never recycle and its just a cascade of hopelessness.

[Leonis]

Problem guys, need support

I'm not the type to completely dismiss professional opinions. Your ex may not be full-blown BPD, but you'd probably described enough details to your therapist for her to make that suggestion. With that in mind, you know she will NEVER have normal close relationships with ANYONE as long as she doesn't seek help on her own.

From my experience with my ex. Yes, she'll probably move on to the next person. Whether that's already happened or she's going to take another two-year break before dating again, it doesn't matter.

So what if they get married? Is it going to last? If it does, is it going to be a functional relationship? My ex's parents are still together despite of a completely dysfunctional relationship for over 30 years. My ex straight up told me she would have married the guy before me, but probably would have divorced him because of the myriads of issues he apparently had.

You don't want to be recycled. It'll only complicate the existing situation. For example, there's actually a good chance my ex could be pregnant by me because of my poor choices. We started having unprotected sex for two months after our breakup in April, with one of the last encounters during the middle of her cycle. It's only been one month since that happened and I'm concerned. She hasn't said anything.

If you read around, things tend to get worse the longer you are involved. Get your confidence up. You deserve better.

[TheRiddler]

Thank you; I'm terrified.  And my therapist had a colleague who worked directly with Marsha Linehan and after hearing my situation was sure she's BPD.

[gotbushels]

Hi TheRiddler   
If you're looking for things that can potentially hurt you, please consider that it has a chance of hurting you. The little behaviours of your own like checking up on her and her life may need to be managed if they are harming you in some way.
I have hope for you. Try to be kind to yourself 

[Meili]

What are you terrified of? I know that might sound like a dullard question, but what is it that really scares you?

I've done the whole recycle thing. It isn't fun and the pain hurts worse each time. So, if you have that opportunity, and decide to participate, you probably need to go into it with your eyes wide-open with regard to what you're dealing with. Also, you would need to be really secure in yourself so as to not allow her actions to affect you so much.

Interestingly enough, the very things that you would need to do to protect yourself are the very things that people find attractive. Cyber-stalking isn't attractive. Not to mention that it causes us pain.

[TheRiddler]

Yes, I know that now.  I was looking for support.

[Meili]

Sorry TR, I guess that we didn't validate what you are feeling, probably making things worse. That was not the intent.

I've done the whole cyber-stalking thing. I know how upsetting it can be, especially when still harboring the desire to have the good times back.

[once removed]

hi TheRiddler 

Yes, I know that now.  I was looking for support.

this is a good way to express your needs. how can we best support you?

[TheRiddler]

I appreciate that.

It doesn't mean there couldn't be an opportunity to talk in the future, but it just makes me anxious.

Once removed: thank you

I just would like to feel that just because I was dumb enough to see that, that doesn't mean it'll last or that we can't reconnect at some point.