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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: “When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”  (Read 1022 times)
heartandwhole
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« on: August 05, 2016, 02:09:38 AM »

The above is a quote attributed to Maya Angelou, and it's got me thinking about how many of us overlooked signs about who the person we were in a relationship with really was.

In my case, I dismissed inconsistencies and strange behavior as due to his trauma. I noticed but ignored the red flag of mentioning his childhood abuse in probably the second email exchange we ever had. I was told that he had been diagnosed with BPD and thought, "It can't be that bad" and didn't do enough research into it. I laughed when he said, very early in our contact, that he thought we was a narcissist.    I could go on, as I'm sure all of you can. We had gut feelings. We had moments of clarity. There were times when we knew that something was not right; that we were heading down the wrong path.

The question I would like help with is this: How can we avoid these traps going forward? I think it has to do with trusting ourselves. Do you think so?

What keeps us from listening to, and taking action on that alarm bell the first time it goes off ?

heartandwhole
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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2016, 02:25:33 AM »


What keeps us from listening to, and taking action on that alarm bell the first time it goes off ?


Existentialism.
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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2016, 02:50:29 AM »

Dear Heartandwhole,

Like so many of us, I deeply understand your questionning. My personnal answer is that deep inside of me, I feel strong enough to cope with it, no matter what… which is not true, sadly! Even more, I feel responsible for our relationship, like if it depended mainly on me.

Also, the fact that my SO and I live wonderful moments together fills me up with hope, until the next crisis.

One thing is for sure, the bell will ring louder and louder if you keep on ignoring it. Focus on yourself, on your feelings and sensations. I am sure that your body sends you messages, respect them as much as you can.

I am also sure that you are a strong, loving person, don't doubt about it and use these precious ressources for yourself first.
Take care
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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2016, 03:59:19 AM »

Because we are too good. Because we trust, we believe people. We have faith.

This is our strength. This is our weakness.
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2016, 04:01:01 AM »

 I Think that quote is very useful, but how do you apply that with a pwBPD? They show you many different persona because they don't know who they are themselves. The realization that the many sides they show you *are* all part of the person is the difficult part.

Apart from that, very useful. When someone treats me bad I think it must be a misunderstanding. When someone disappoints me I think what the heck, let them try again. This is my problem.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2016, 05:00:54 AM »

I was just thinking about this today heartandwhole,

I saw from the very beginning not only the red flags, but he was also quite candid back in the early days, almost like trying to warn me away or let me know what I was in for.

I was actually drawn by his darkness and his negativity. 

I'm not sure why, I just felt so drawn into the darkness of him. 

He gave me many warning signs, many gut instincts, yet I chose to ignore them all because I felt attracted to the dangerous side of him.

I'm still trying to work out why.
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2016, 06:51:31 AM »

How can we avoid these traps going forward?

I'm going with boundaries and values.  If we get clear on our values, really clear, and what we will and won't accept from people, and establish and enforce boundaries to protect those values, we build a strong core.

And boundaries that are too strong create our own personal prison, too porous and folks can march right in and violate those values; boundary setting is an art and a skill, and we get better at everything we practice.

And emotions are strong in intimate relationships, so the more we can condition the ability and habit of setting and enforcing boundaries beforehand, the more automatic and reflexive they'll be when we're deep in a relationship.

And having graduated from borderline school, a boot camp of interpersonal relationships, we're well versed to meet the challenge if we stay sharp and focused.  And everything gets better with practice.
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2016, 06:56:43 AM »

Because we are too good. Because we trust, we believe people. We have faith.

This is our strength. This is our weakness.

what she said +1 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2016, 06:58:36 AM »

Perhaps because we naively think that WE will be the ones to stand by their side and "love them back to health."  In my case he was pretty upfront about his various diagnoses, and I thought because I was a psychologist, I could handle them and help him overcome.  Ha!  Joke's on me, 8 years later.
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2016, 07:12:36 AM »

So true, chillamom,

"Love them back to health" is what I believed, I could show and teach him Love, and I'd stand by him through thick and thin.  I did the best I could.  He just never grew, no matter how much love and care I gave him, he stayed exactly the same. I kept trying, because I believed I could change him, I could fix him. 

I know now that is not possible. 

I'm five weeks NC.  It really is moment by moment.  Some moments I am so strong and can see through the fog and know we had no future, ever. Then well it can swing 180 degrees, so quickly, from feeling positive to utterly overwhelmed with sadness and desperate longing for him.




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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2016, 07:33:01 AM »

Why did we ignore the blips on the radar screen, why did we just knock on the glass and ignored it as a blip and not as a warning sign to take things serious.

Many moments and situation are clearly in my mind.

And instead of seeing them as odd, as a sign of an unstable personality, of trouble ahead, they generated sympathy in me. At times it seemed funny. At times it seemed serious but i thought i was strong enough to proove what no-one else ever before was able to proove.

That love excuses everything, and can overcome everything.

Ofcourse at the very start these small blips had to be discounted since the honeymoon phase was so surreal, perfect and intense. That a person that would invoke such strong feelings in me would probably not be like any other person in that regard... .And i could't look ahead what these small blips would grow into. When these blips would evolve into destructive actions that would turn that initial fairytale into a nightmare.

Simply put... .you didn't have the experience yet, you had high hopes and not enough knowledge of the underlying reality




 
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2016, 07:43:47 AM »

I'm five weeks NC.  It really is moment by moment.  Some moments I am so strong and can see through the fog and know we had no future, ever. Then well it can swing 180 degrees, so quickly, from feeling positive to utterly overwhelmed with sadness and desperate longing for him.

Yeah, yesterday with my therapist i discussed this... .i actually for a moment jokingly considered that i may have ultra rapid cycling bipolar, as it really goes up and down over a 4 day cycle.

But then we came up with a nice anology. When you walk up the stair, your body moves left and right as it balances to put your feet on the next steps one after the other.
That you are moving left and right emotionally is a good sign, it means you are rising on that stair, climbing out of the pit. Its just your mind balancing it's way out of this... .
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2016, 08:00:01 AM »


love excuses everything, and can overcome everything.


when she warned me her life was a mess, I only replied "I don't give up so easily"
of course I gave up when I was submerged
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2016, 08:16:34 AM »

Wow... .just wow

I cant agree with all of you more.  The signs were all there so early on.  And yet I always thought I love her and my love will be enough.  I am better than all those other men who failed her.  She has known only pain and they just brought her more.  I am strong enough to help her carry the hurt away.  She just needs to be truly and deeply loved and everything that is broken in her and her life will be better.  I CAN FIX THIS... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) never before has there been anything in the world that was to broken to fix until I met her.  And now I find myself stuck, do I walk away from someone that I love but is broken beyond repair or do I stay and do my best to hold the two of us together at the same time.

Despite all the hurt, I still care and still want to help and care for her... .
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2016, 09:38:38 AM »


Despite all the hurt, I still care and still want to help and care for her... .

I want it to, but i think by this time she has made such a mess of things that she herself can't get over it either.

And BPDs they dont process events, and the responsability they have in those events fully. They don't process the underlying emotions and thus have only two options: rage or run.
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2016, 01:44:35 PM »

I would say that in my case it was because both my ex and I were deeply conflicted. It's one thing to say to trust yourself and your instincts, but when you're torn in two by your instincts and deepest desires, you ultimately have to choose one consistent path forward and work hard to follow it, even if it means learning to let go of some of your deepest desires and not trusting some of your strongest instincts. Sometimes that's what's needed to evolve and grow as a person. The alternative for me was to remain caught in the push/pull and escalating chaos and heartache of my relationship with my ex.

She was conflicted because she couldn't trust me. She loved me and knew I loved her, but would become gripped by jealousy, suspicion, overwhelming fear that I would leave her. And so she raged, undermined me, lied, set up replacements ... .I was conflicted because I loved her but was increasingly unhappy and wanting to leave the relationship. And so the game of suspicion and counter-suspicion was set in play ... .she sensed I had thoughts of leaving, I would deny it and stress how much I loved her, she would want me to prove it and she would provoke drama to test me, I would be hurt and get thoughts of leaving, she would sense it and provoke drama, ... .etc etc, until the bad times noticeably outweighed the good.

I like the Maya Angelou quote because it captures a (partial) truth about our relationships that we can see in hindsight. But I also think life isn't so simple. We don't have an eternal internal essence that can be revealed so clearly. People are complicated, conflicted, sometimes change quite dramatically, sometimes don't change at all, ... .And so I would say that I stayed with my ex even as things got increasingly painful and it became obvious we wouldn't work out, all because we were conflicted and my ex showed me different sides of her personality, and she was all of them, not just the angry and suspicious side of her.

That said, I couldn't agree more with fromhealtoheel's response -- setting boundaries and knowing ourselves and the values we want to live by, that's key to not letting ourselves be torn in two (or more) directions in a relationship, to not trying to follow multiple, incompatible life paths at once. I think, by the end, I was hoping my ex would see how much I truly did love her by seeing how torn and hurt I was. And I was hoping that we could acknowledge our love even as we recognised it wasn't working, and at least leave things on a positive note. But she told me in various ways (including explicitly in words) that she didn't believe in leaving things on a good note. One of the lessons I draw is that it's not doing anyone any favours for me to let myself be torn in two like that. And I end up feeling I lack integrity. So, all of that to say I really like fromhealtoheel's response. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2016, 02:20:27 PM »

 

Hello heart and whole I had bit of epiphany today helped along by my therapy. As a child I had to accept my boundaries beibg broken left right and centre by emotionally immature parents. I was not able at that point to do anything about it I had to accept it for survival. I needed to believe in their love. I had to focus on their good - and this was done in my little head b4 i had language to describe what was happening. Therefore in the relationship with my BPD ex the man I havr never felt anything like about anyone else before - who I adored with all my heart and soul - I was willing to overlook what others may have run from. I do not regret it though. I never felt so understood and connected my whole life. He cant be all bad therefore - just like my parents arn't just misguided - not awake - but these types of people can cause so much damage and pain - not even maliciously - ghey r just blinkered from understanding the full effects of yheir behaviour. Maya Angelou also said always do ur best and when u know better do better. Im sure given the chance they would learn and do better but society is cut throat and there is not enough support or services for meaningful interventions that can help people devlop better emotional and behavioural awareness. There are a lot of defeated sensitive artists walking wounded just not cut out for this world. Im glad I felt a love so deep. Im learning so much all the time. Who knows what will happen in future but Im back on the track of focusing on my creativity xxx
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2016, 04:48:30 PM »

cherryblossom,
I just want to say that I found your reply beautifully balanced and very moving. Thank you for that. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2016, 05:22:36 PM »

Thanks freisen, i did it on my phone so lots of spelling and bad grammar- glad it made sense to you x
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2016, 04:33:29 PM »

There were strange things, but they were small dots to me, only after I saw the picture composed of all the dots. The problem is, you can't write of anybody because one little thing, but the next time I'll be more prepared for the pattern of behavior. A couple of months before the whole thing escalated the social worker at my work told me he saw traits of BPD. I read some stuff, adopted a few tricks and thought everything would be OK if I avoided some triggers.

That's was naive to say the least, but I didn't know the extent of her deceit and the severity of this illness. Now a couple of months later I understand it all a lot better. I'm almost feeling sorry for my replacement (well not really, best friend that sabotaged my relationship) in the sense that he is even more naive and gullible than I was. He told a friend that he never talked like this with a girl and that he didn't understand what we were talking about. Well that's the mirroring... .She's a totally different person with him than she was with me. I just realized I could have seen this before, with me she painted a different picture than what I heard about her r/s with the ex in the past (he was painted black all the way).

This is something I hope to notice earlier if it happens again.
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woundedPhoenix
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2016, 04:47:47 PM »

I read some stuff, adopted a few tricks and thought everything would be OK if I avoided some triggers.

Yeah. I thought the same thing, make sure i don't trigger her. Problem is... .You don't control all triggers, you don't control her reality.
And you can't be 24/7 on guard so that there is no trigger, cause you know what happens then?

-> Someone else - out of pure stupidity - creates one that blows up in YOUR face.
-> Or they eventually create a situation that becomes a trigger to THEMSELVES.

The two core events that sent her into devaluation where these two, it was not even caused by me directly... .
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2016, 05:15:21 PM »

My r/s with suspected BPD/NPD ex ended several years ago, but I'm still processing it. No contact, but I still have frequent dreams of him. He provided many red flags early on, some before we became involved, but I glossed over them, which really means I was in denial; I wanted him, what I thought he had to offer as a partner. Soon after we began dating, a red flag included one in which he said he "punished me" for what I now know was a boundary I set on our first date and said "no" to something he wanted.  I look back at that moment (3-4 weeks in) and can now envision myself walking away from him and not looking back.  It actually helps me to mentally go back in time with situations and see how I would change my reaction and responses as part of taking care of myself. It was all for him back then. I didn't put my own needs first, I didn't even know what those needs were.

I didn't know anything about these types of mental illnesses until afterwards; it affected me in the deepest way, depression, anxiety, etc. I never want to go through that for anyone. I researched, went to therapists and taught myself to understand personality mental illnesses. I was charmed and blown away by him. I know so much after this disasterous r/s ended (I ended it after he painted me black and went LC for what I thought was the most unreasonable reason I'd ever heard and by then I'd heard plenty from him about why he was mad at me and walked away and went silent). I have pretty clear ideas of what to look for if and when I ever date again. I know I HAVE to be cautious and very observant and to take it very slow.
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2016, 07:54:07 AM »

Thanks everyone, for the great responses. It seems that many of us believed that our love would conquer the BPD demons. I think this often comes from a very caring and loving place, but I also wonder sometimes if it also subtly implies that we are the "better/more evolved" partner, putting the pwBPD in a one-down position? That is the shadow side of helping, in my view.

4) Belief that love can prevail

9) Belief that you need to stay to help them.

I'm also not one to give up easily, as  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post)  pgri8684 said. That can keep us cycling for a long time, right? Sometimes walking away is the healthier thing to do, but once we've committed our hearts, that can be really difficult.

I didn't put my own needs first, I didn't even know what those needs were.

Bingo!  Thought I really relate to this statement,  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post)  Reader9. And I think it was at the crux of my reactive patterns to pwBPD.

The boundary violations: that is something I have become very observant of. I do really well enforcing boundaries (and noticing very quickly when they are being pushed) with people I'm not intimate with. The trouble starts in closer relationships where I feel more responsible for the person's feelings  Idea Takes me right back to FOO. 

So, as  Bullet: contents of text or email (click to insert in post)  fromheeltoheal says, I think exploring values and core needs going forward will help a lot in avoiding the traps of rescuing, inappropriate caretaking, etc. Plus, experience helps so much! We can't unring the bell; we can't pretend we don't know what is out there. It's painful but also liberating.

heartandwhole




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When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2016, 10:25:42 AM »

When my then-girlfriend told me of her past relationship history, I remember asking her "do you know the story of The Scorpion and The Frog?"  She did, but her response was "I'm not a scorpion; I was un-medicated and selfish and I don't want to be that person and if you hang in there I'll prove it to you."  And I hung in.  And she did prove it for a very long time.

What's so perverse to me is that one of my core life philosophies is that people don't change; people may grow, people may regress, but at a certain age people are who they are, and you can take it or leave it but don't enter into a relationship with them hoping to change them.  And, with her, I had no designs on changing her, it was all up to her.  Further, because she hadn't been medicated I abandoned my core philosophy because this was an exception to the rule, or so I thought (bzzzzt.  WRONG!).

All those years, all those memories, all of them a giant detour in her life journey that has led her back to the woman who existed before we met, albeit without the partying (something I think most of us outgrow anyway).  It's what she's stated she wants, and to think that so much time passed yet here she is wanting to go back to being that person she told me she hated being.  It's truly incredible.





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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2016, 12:06:57 PM »

Wow... .just wow

I cant agree with all of you more.  The signs were all there so early on.  And yet I always thought I love her and my love will be enough.  I am better than all those other men who failed her.  She has known only pain and they just brought her more.  I am strong enough to help her carry the hurt away.  She just needs to be truly and deeply loved and everything that is broken in her and her life will be better.  I CAN FIX THIS... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) never before has there been anything in the world that was to broken to fix until I met her.  And now I find myself stuck, do I walk away from someone that I love but is broken beyond repair or do I stay and do my best to hold the two of us together at the same time.

Despite all the hurt, I still care and still want to help and care for her... .

I relate to this.  My ex was an addict, and I thought that because I understood mental illness and addiction, because I was so stubborn and so strong, that I would succeed where all before me failed.

I don't kick myself for trying to help her, or for seeing the side of her that deserves a shot at redemption.  I kick myself for being so arrogant as to assume that I could stubborn or love away her crazy.
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2016, 12:26:34 PM »

Excerpt
When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.

What if it's not so black and white? What if people are human and make mistakes?

I can look back at my own life and all the mistakes that I made - and they don't represent who I am today. I've learned, I've made amends, I've grown. All humans have the capacity for this.

Understanding this about myself also gave me compassion for my ex through her mistakes, but when I realized that her mistakes were happening repeatedly and were actually arising from her lack of moral character, everything about the way I felt about her changed. Even though I now understand that her lack of moral character arises from her disorder, I had to make a decision about how much I'm willing to forgive; how far I'm willing to go. Ultimately, I decided that there are limits. But I didn't reach that "limit" the first time she screwed up.

I love Maya Angelou, but life isn't always so simple.
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woundedPhoenix
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2016, 01:54:11 PM »

In my case he was pretty upfront about his various diagnoses, and I thought because I was a psychologist, I could handle them and help him overcome.  Ha!  Joke's on me, 8 years later.

I know 4 different psychologists who tried and failed... .My own therapist says by now i know more about BPD then she does. It goes to show that even with all the knowledge and skills you are never prepared.

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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2016, 02:08:20 PM »

When my then-girlfriend told me of her past relationship history, I remember asking her "do you know the story of The Scorpion and The Frog?"  She did, but her response was "I'm not a scorpion; I was un-medicated and selfish and I don't want to be that person and if you hang in there I'll prove it to you."  And I hung in.  And she did prove it for a very long time.

All those years, all those memories, all of them a giant detour in her life journey that has led her back to the woman who existed before we met, albeit without the partying (something I think most of us outgrow anyway).  It's what she's stated she wants, and to think that so much time passed yet here she is wanting to go back to being that person she told me she hated being.  It's truly incredible.

Yeah, it's like regression. In my r/s she prooved it for 4 straight years that she had outgrown her ":)ark, A-moral and Selfish" side. And after that, this slowly came back. She hid it from me for a long time, but it was working its way up in the background. In the end it seemed that being a good person didn't have the payoff she had hoped for... .that everyone betrayed her goodness and that she was better off before... .
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« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2016, 04:20:09 PM »

The scorpion and the frog is a perfect fable to describe BPD, by the way.  Before I started dating my BPDex, I asked a friend about her, and his only comment was to relate the tale of the scorpion and the frog to me.

I listened, but a year later we started talking again and we got together.

I should have listened better.
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