I have separated from my husband - this is not the first time

[momtario]

So, boundaries seem to be an issue for me, and always have. There's this need that I have to believe the best of others, even when they are incapable of living up to it.

I have hurt myself very badly a lot this week by talking to my recent xBPDh. He's grasping at every ounce of vitriol he can, and pushing buttons until he hits a nerve.

Because we have children together, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to implement no contact. Any advice?

[Grey Kitty]

If he still has interactions with your children, you probably can only limit contact severely, instead of eliminating it.

I have hurt myself very badly a lot this week by talking to my recent xBPDh. He's grasping at every ounce of vitriol he can, and pushing buttons until he hits a nerve.

I suspect he will do that until you disconnect the buttons he is trying to push. In fact, long after that.

Don't see him face to face (if at all possible!), especially with just the two of you or just the two of you plus your kids.

Don't talk to him on the phone. Communicate by email and/or text message. Send him to voice mail.

And keep the email/text conversations to business that needs to be done. Are you familiar with the BIFF format?

Healing yourself so you aren't so vulnerable to his button pushing will be a long path. I think the first step is not letting him see any results from his attempts, not engaging with him when he does hurt you, or when he tries but it doesn't really get to you.

[momtario]

Thank you Grey Kitty. I'm definitely on board with all of your suggestions, particularly not letting xN/BPDh see when he's gotten to me.

What is the BIFF format? I've never heard of it -- still very new to the breakup scene.

I'm trying to not see him face to face. Staying in the women's shelter is helping with that for the time being. I'm worried about when I go back to work after my leave of absence. It's a very public place (retail), and he's made a point of passive-aggressively telling me he can go in there whenever he wants, by texting me descriptions of what my coworkers are wearing (with no other context; just "[name] is wearing [description of outfit] today."

And after the phone conversation we had last weekend, I won't be making that mistake again.

He is only allowed to see the children with professional supervision at the moment. He's painted himself into a tight corner with child protection, because he's been lying and manipulative with them, and with me about them.

With my long history of not leaving I was at least self aware enough to recognize I couldn't stick to it without the safety net of knowing that Children's Aid would remove the kids if I didn't do it myself. I told them about a tiny percentage of the child abuse, which was more than enough. Now, I'm at the shelter until I know I can bring myself to phone the police if he shows up.

It's going to take a long time for me to get used to not 'adulting' for him. Even longer to recover from the ending of my 11 year marriage. As bad as it was, it was my entire adult life thus far. The hardest part will be trying to hold onto enough of myself while healing from the abuse, and to help my children do the same.

[momtario]

Examining the beliefs that are keeping me from completely detaching from my (still very recent) xN/BPDh is going to be difficult and painful. I've had a lot of contact since leaving two weeks ago, and while I'm getting better at stepping back to protect myself and enforce my boundaries, I'm still giving the impression that there's a relationship to be saved -- which at this point, there is not. Having looked into the article Surviving a Breakup when Your Partner has Borderline Personality, I've determined that these are the beliefs that are keeping me stuck:

7) Belief that if you say it louder you will be heard

We often feel that if we explain our point better, put it in writing, say it louder, or find the right words ... .we will be heard. People with BPD hear and read just fine. Everything that we have said has been physically heard. The issue is more about listening and engaging. When the relationship breaks down and emotions are flared, the ability to listen and engage diminishes greatly on all sides. And if we try to compensate by being more insistent it often just drives the interaction further into unhealthy territory. We may be seen as aggressive. We may be seen as weak and clingy. We may be seen as having poor boundaries and inviting selfish treatment. We may be offering ourselves up for punishment. It may be denial, it may be the inability to get past what they feel and want to say, or it may even be payback. This is one of the most difficult aspects of breaking up - there is no closure.

9) Belief that you need to stay to help them.

You might want to stay to help your partner. You might want to disclose to them that they have borderline personality disorder and help them get into therapy. Maybe you want to help in other ways while still maintaining a “friendship”. The fact is, we are no longer in a position to be the caretaker and support person for our “BPD” partner – no matter how well intentioned. Understand that we have become the trigger for our partner’s bad feelings and bad behavior. Sure, we do not deliberately cause these feelings, but your presence is now triggering them. This is a complex defense mechanism that is often seen with borderline personality disorder when a relationship sours. It’s roots emanate from the deep core wounds associated with the disorder. We can’t begin to answer to this. We also need to question our own motives and your expectations for wanting to help. Is this kindness or a type of “well intentioned” manipulation on your part - an attempt to change them to better serve the relationship as opposed to addressing the lifelong wounds from which they suffer? More importantly, what does this suggest about our own survival instincts – we’re injured, in ways we may not even fully grasp, and it’s important to attend to our own wounds before we are attempt to help anyone else. You are damaged. Right now, your primary responsibility really needs to be to yourself – your own emotional survival. If your partner tries to lean on you, it’s a greater kindness that you step away. Difficult, no doubt, but more responsible.

10) Belief that they have seen the light

Your partner may suddenly be on their best behavior or appearing very needy and trying to entice you back into the relationship. You, hoping that they are finally seeing things your way or really needing you, may venture back in – or you may struggle mightily to stay away. What is this all about? Well, at the end of any relationship there can be a series of breakups and make-ups – disengaging is often a process, not an event. However when this process becomes protracted, it becomes toxic. At the end of a “BPD” relationship, this can happen. The emotional needs that fueled the relationship bond initially, are now fueling a convoluted disengagement as one or both partners struggle against their deep enmeshment with the other and their internal conflicts about the break up. Either partner may go to extremes to reunite - even use the threat of suicide to get attention and evoke sympathies. Make no mistake about what is happening. Don’t be lulled into believing that the relationship is surviving or going through a phase. At this point, there are no rules. There are no clear loyalties. Each successive breakup increases the dysfunction of relationship and the dysfunction of the partners individually - and opens the door for very hurtful things to happen.

[VitaminC]

That's great work, momtario, in identifying them!  Half the battle.

Now for the question of how to make yourself not believe those things anymore?

No. 8, for me, was easy, once I realised that I didn't want to fix someone else, even if I had that magical power. Which I don't. So I accepted my limitations - both the power to do something and the desire to want to sacrifice what I'd have to - I felt that one fall away.

No. 7 & 9 took a little longer. Because I'm "stubborn", or so I've always been told. I can be insistent and demanding and combative. I also am a great hoper and optimist. I believe in the power of change. I give people a lot of rope. Blah blah. All true and fine, but once I examined the evidence more closely I saw that:
 
a) I had tried many different ways and at many different times to say things differently. And I had not been heard. It hadn't made the slightest difference, not in the long term.
b) I had seen my exBPD "seeing the light" and then seen him, and myself, revert to old behaviours. Multiple times. I had to accept that it would go on like that for ever, if I let it.

I had to keep checking back on the evidence to remind myself. I kept photographs, emails, text messages - all of it. I re-read them whenever I got confused and, even if it hurt, I was better off with that in my face than those sticky false beliefs.

Is there a way you can use whatever contact you do have to have with your ex to keep proving something similar to yourself? To keep putting more things into those clear plastic bags they use in court room dramas and keep labeling them "Exhibit A" and all the way through the alphabet. Add letters if you need to!

[Grey Kitty]

    Yes, that is a lot to heal and recover from. I can hardly imagine how hard it must be for you to stay strong right now. I wish there was something I could do directly. You will find more strength than you know you have. 


Here's a topic to answer your first question, from the coparenting board:

BIFF - Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm

I'm worried about when I go back to work after my leave of absence. It's a very public place (retail), and he's made a point of passive-aggressively telling me he can go in there whenever he wants, by texting me descriptions of what my coworkers are wearing (with no other context; just "[name] is wearing [description of outfit] today."

This is stalking--he is doing it to threaten you. And it is working--you ARE concerned!

Can you get some kind of protection order to keep him away from you outside of required exchanges? There is a good chance that there would be legal/law enforcement resources that could help you here.

Please talk to the folks at the DV shelter about this--they would know much more and probably have contacts and resources to start the process.

Or post on the legal board here--Others have had this sort of problem before.

[Mutt]

Hi momtario,

If he still has interactions with your children, you probably can only limit contact severely, instead of eliminating it

I'm sorry to hear that   I'd just like to add to what Grey Kitty said about limited or low contact, what topics does he bring up? Does try to talk about the marriage? Does he ask about personal things about you? Does he mostly keep the conversation about the kids?

[momtario]

No. 7 & 9 took a little longer. Because I'm "stubborn", or so I've always been told. I can be insistent and demanding and combative. I also am a great hoper and optimist. I believe in the power of change. I give people a lot of rope. Blah blah. All true and fine, but once I examined the evidence more closely I saw that:
 
a) I had tried many different ways and at many different times to say things differently. And I had not been heard. It hadn't made the slightest difference, not in the long term.
b) I had seen my exBPD "seeing the light" and then seen him, and myself, revert to old behaviours. Multiple times. I had to accept that it would go on like that for ever, if I let it.

All of this resonates with me.   I have to recognize, I suppose, that although it's mostly different messages I'm trying to find the right way to say, the problem isn't the message when the cognition of the listener is the same.

And as for seeing the light, I do hear you on this. Before leaving, I had to recognize and fully accept that I had no choice but to act on the assumption he would never really change. He has, of course, taken several solid steps toward real change in the last two weeks, but the phrase too little, too late comes to mind. I also know better than to trust that change is lasting.

I used to be a grand and relentless optimist, as well. Then I had an epiphany -- I was simply putting my head in the sand in the hopes that a problem would go away if I refused to look at it for long enough. It's still difficult to stamp the optimism out, but I'm managing.

[momtario]

   Yes, that is a lot to heal and recover from. I can hardly imagine how hard it must be for you to stay strong right now. I wish there was something I could do directly. You will find more strength than you know you have.   

Thanks 

This is stalking--he is doing it to threaten you. And it is working--you ARE concerned!

Can you get some kind of protection order to keep him away from you outside of required exchanges? There is a good chance that there would be legal/law enforcement resources that could help you here.

Please talk to the folks at the DV shelter about this--they would know much more and probably have contacts and resources to start the process.

Or post on the legal board here--Others have had this sort of problem before.

I would have the option of a peace bond, because I've never had him charged. Having seen the way the justice system treats plaintiffs in cases like mine, I've no desire to have him charged, either -- not to mention, it would have a terrible impact on the kids. If child protection sees fit to charge him, I'll cooperate, but I'm not putting myself out there on purpose. Okay, that was a tangent, back to the peace bond. It would bar him from attacking me, which is illegal regardless. I could see if it would also be able to bar him from going to the store I work in aside from on a certain day or at a certain time.

I'm sorry to hear that   I'd just like to add to what Grey Kitty said about limited or low contact, what topics does he bring up? Does try to talk about the marriage? Does he ask about personal things about you? Does he mostly keep the conversation about the kids?

Thanks, Mutt. He rapid-cycles in his texts. We're still very recently separated and he's trying everything, but starting to settle into only asking about the kids. I've made it clear there are lines of conversation I'm not engaging him in. Before yesterday, he was repeatedly:

• trying to engage in conversation about the future
• talking about the marriage
• asking for clarification on why I left
• calling me a kidnapper
• making veiled threats of kidnapping our children back
• asking me to clarify what the FCS social worker said to me (and what was said to him
• begging
• threatening
• accusing
• offering me emotional support
• blaming me for everything
• pretending nothing's happened
• trying to get me into marriage counseling

He also makes a point at times of trying to discuss some of the worse abuse, using backhanded apologies and insisting that if I talk to him about it he can make it better.

[VitaminC]

It's still difficult to stamp the optimism out, but I'm managing.

Maybe you don't need to stamp it out? Maybe you can just put that laser beam of optimism onto something else. Yourself, other people in your life? Plant that seed in healthier soil, that's how think of it.

[Mutt]

Hi momtario,

He'll probably veer off course with your conversations and talk about things that are not about the kids, you probably already know this, keep in mind when you're talking to him that we can't control someone else but we can control how we react. That said, if he's trying to offer emotional support, think about what your boundary is and if what he is saying is valid and if it's not valid does it warrant a response? So, if you want to have emotional support from him, don't validate it by responding to it, keep sticking to your boundaries and eventually he will get the picture that it's off limits to try to offer emotional support and he'll try less. I say try less because he will test your boundaries from time to time but just keep defending them, the attempts at testing your boundaries will become more infrequent. I hope that helps.

[Skip]

my recent xBPDh... .

As I understand it, you two have a long standing "on-again, off-again" marriage and you are currently separated for 2 weeks. xBPDh indicates that you are divorced and he is diagnosed. This might confuse members who are trying to help. Are you are still married?

I have done an awful lot of reading lately, and I have come to the conclusion that if you remove his overlapping traits of NPD from the DSM-IV BPD traits, my H could not be diagnosed with BPD.

That being said, I am fairly certain of the NPD, because he has all but one of the NPD traits.

So maybe recently separated uNPDh might be clearer. 

if he doesn't get what he wants when he wants it, there is hell to pay for everyone. Mostly verbal, but there is always the threat of physical and that's usually enough to shut everyone up

Can you walk back the story to 2011 and what has happened since? A few months back, the two of you were back together and making progress.

What has happened with the marriage since 2011? Do you have the ability or desire to stay out (e.g., income, daycare) in the long term or is this a temporary separation (like in the past) while you guys sort it out?

With my long history of not leaving I was at least self aware enough to recognize I couldn't stick to it without the safety net of knowing that Children's Aid would remove the kids if I didn't do it myself.

What has been going on with respect to abusive behavior? What happened that caused you to go to a shelter.

Now, I'm at the shelter until I know I can bring myself to phone the police if he shows up.

Can you explain?

Before yesterday, he was repeatedly:

• trying to engage in conversation about the future
• talking about the marriage
• asking for clarification on why I left
• calling me a kidnapper
• making veiled threats of kidnapping our children back
• asking me to clarify what the FCS social worker said to me (and what was said to him
• begging
• threatening
• accusing
• offering me emotional support
• blaming me for everything
• pretending nothing's happened
• trying to get me into marriage counseling

He also makes a point at times of trying to discuss some of the worse abuse, using backhanded apologies and insisting that if I talk to him about it he can make it better.

This is a pretty typical response (no judgement either way) in the weeks after a spouse leaves. Has he now calmed down?

Because we have children together, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to implement no contact. Any advice?

No contact doesn't seem like a good idea and is likely to inflame matters. You have been down this path many times so it is reasonable that he will do the same things that helped reunite you in the past. What you need is peaceful communication via a safe medium, like email (which also creates a record) and, at least temporary, a request to give each other space (for 1 week, 2 weeks, other) to think. Reduce the threat that something is imminent and he will calm down - everyone will be safer.

It sounds like the discussions are now about the children. That's good.

My questions are in blue

[formflier]

 If child protection sees fit to charge him, I'll cooperate, but I'm not putting myself out there on purpose.  

Are you in the United states?  I'm not aware of child protection making decisions to charge people.

Through your shelter or other methods, do you have access to a family law attorney?  

FF

[momtario]

Hi, Skip.

As I understand it, you two have a long standing "on-again, off-again" marriage and you are currently separated for 2 weeks. xBPDh indicates that you are divorced and he is diagnosed. This might confuse members who are trying to help. Are you are still married?

We did separate once, before we were married (college, pre-kids). And almost a second time (first pregnancy prevented). I've never actually left the marriage before. I've had 'one foot out the door' several times, and even tried a brief in-home separation, but a myriad of factors (finances, poor support system, a lack of willingness to ask for help, fear of the unknown, fear of the danger during separation, pregnancy, then postpartum illnesses, and yes, sometimes genuine love) kept me in the marriage.

We're not divorced, but this is going to be a long term separation, almost certainly ending in divorce. I didn't realize the x implied a completely ended relationship. I've been referring to him as my ex husband in shelter, to help me wrap my head around it. 'Change your thoughts, change your life.'

So maybe recently separated uNPDh might be clearer.

That's true. Sometimes it seems to be one and sometimes the other, but with the amount of overlap, and the fact that he's not dx (yet - his GP has referred him to an intensive inpatient program that will hopefully get him the dx and help he needs) sticking to NPD (as that's where his illness seems to lie on the spectrum) would help for the sake of clarity.

I'm going to have to come back to the rest of your questions this afternoon. 2011 and 2012 are not pre-coffee topics and I'm going to engage in self care by stepping away before ruining my day.

[formflier]

I've been referring to him as my ex husband in shelter, to help me wrap my head around it. 'Change your thoughts, change your life.'
 

Since you are still figuring this out, perhaps it might be best to refer to him as your children's father.

Then, if someone presses you for the status of relationship... .answer honestly "I'm trying to figure that out... ."

I like the idea around changing your thoughts to change your life.  I believe there are better ways to go about that change.

1.  Accept and understand the facts and feelings as they are.
2.  Seek wisdom from others as you make deliberate choices about your future.

Hang in there.  I'm glad you are taking steps towards a healthier you and a healthier relationship.

FF

[momtario]

Hi formflier,

I'm in Canada and the Children's Aid Society (our child protection, for the purpose of this board where many are american, I usually just say child protection) is the main piece of the Family and Children's Services (FCS).

FCS works with families through voluntary service agreements. These do not involve court, but are ongoing contracts where the parents agree to take certain steps to work toward a goal of bringing children and parents together in more healthy ways.

The CAS will open a child protection case if any party in the voluntary service agreement breaks their contract or otherwise proves themselves unwilling or unable to meet the demands of the agreement. These do involve the courts, at which point charges are at the judge's discretion.   

In order to make the needed changes, I had no choice but to accept my feelings and shove them aside, acting solely on the facts that my children's father is sick and abusive, and is unlikely ever going to make any significant lasting positive change. And then I took the needed steps to make change myself, by taking control of the things I could control, and letting others sort out the things I can't.

[momtario]

Do you have the ability or desire to stay out (e.g., income, daycare) in the long term or is this a temporary separation (like in the past) while you guys sort it out?

I have both the desire and the ability to stay out. I have a part time job and a social program top-up, and as of November 1st, I have a decent 4 bedroom low income duplex to live in. There's daycare subsidy available, offered inside the children's school, and we're connected with child therapists. Perhaps most importantly, I have all of the correct supports in place for myself, thanks to the shelter and significant FCS involvement. 

[momtario]

Can you walk back the story to 2011 and what has happened since? A few months back, the two of you were back together and making progress.

And now to take us back into 2011 and 2012. It may take a few tries, because it's very hard for me to maintain focus on those memories, but I will try. 

In the fall of 2011, I had a wake-up call that I was not the cause of the abuse toward myself or our children (mostly the oldest daughter). (RS)uNPDh was very abusive, mostly verbally (swearing, put downs, name calling, etc) toward D12. (She was 7 at that time). The put downs and manipulation extended to me, but he's only once or twice gone so far as to call me names.

He would hit walls, dogs, people, doors, he would throw things, and several times in early 2012, he shoved, Once it was hard enough that when I hit the wall, I hit my head fairly hard, but not hard enough to cause unconsciousness. Most of the time, all it would take was a look and he got his way.

He had started accusing me of having affairs, and one afternoon, he couldn't find his keys, and told me he 'knew I had hidden them because he found out I was having an affair.' I wasn't, and I hadn't hidden his keys. It was our youngest daughter (2 at the time), not wanting him to go to work that day. Anyways, that was the fight that led me to bpdfamily.com and things started making (at least a little bit of) sense.

When I started attempting to assert boundaries, I was pretty bad at it. He was worse at respecting them. Unfortunately, attempting to become less enmeshed and develop some personal space only served to convince him that I was definitely having an affair. By that point in our marriage, a pattern of sexual abuse (including sexual assault and rape) had been established as the most effective way to squash any chances of me growing as an individual.

With the help of members here, I developed enough sense and self esteem to see that the children and I were worth more than the abuse we were receiving, and was able to identify a few steps that should be taken to end it.

I'm going to have to come back to this again later or another day.

[empath]

Momtario, thank you for sharing the parts of your story that you have written. It is a very difficult road that you have been on, especially with children. When you have child protection agencies involved, we have many emotions, but at the same time, we have to do the best for our children. You are strong to do what you have done - getting help for yourself and ultimately for the children. I'm glad that you are attending to your own needs and are aware of the things that make things worse for you.

It would probably be a good idea to get a peace bond - as you most likely know, after a person leaves is the most dangerous time in an abusive situation. Since the abuse has been directed toward the children, they should be protected through that as well. That should limit his ability to contact you.

[momtario]

All of the abuse culminated in one huge blowup of a day, on Good Friday 2012. The children were all home and, as usual, were expected (by RS-uNPDh) to spend the entire day cleaning. After a significant amount of push-back from the kids, there were a few instances of physical violence, including him holding our oldest D down so he could scream at her. It ended when later, he was still screaming at her, and she was crying that she needed to pee, and whether she really had to go or was just trying to hide from her father, I stepped in and sent her to the washroom, thinking that would put enough of a pause on things to end them.

His reaction was terrifying. He shouted in my face (no words, if I recall correctly) and then slammed his fist into the door frame a few inches from my face. He then turned, lifted the baby gate from the bottom of the stairs over his head (smashing a lightbulb) and then threw the gate across the room, almost hitting our second oldest daughter, who was 5 at the time. Then he stormed out and I called a friend to come pick the children and I up so we wouldn't be there when he got home.

That was the day I started looking for apartments, and I had one pretty much lined up when later that week I took a pregnancy test and confirmed that I was pregnant with a 4th child.

I'll come back to this again when I can.

[Skip]

One of the things that we said was really important in helping you this time around was keeping things very balanced/factual and staying away from "over-statement" or selectively telling your story. It's hard saying this because I don't want to minimize what you have been through, and  at the same time, it's really important to avoid telling the story that you want members to hear - versus a balance recounting of what is going on. As you noted, you only told the Family Services what you wanted them to hear - for us on an anonymous board - you have a place that you can face the facts in a balanced and self reflective way. Let's do that.

Going back to the "ex-husband" example... .we understand that you are feeling "done" with your husband today. I think we can relate with how you feel today. I can see some truth is using "exhusband", at the same time, saying he is an exhusband is misleading to readers and not true. If he were an exhuband members would expect that a custody evaluation had been completed and his long term visitation was formalized, and was based on an indepth independent analysis, for example. At this point, as I understand it, you have not filed for divorce.  See what I'm saying?

When responding to the question "what happened since 2012", it's far more construction to give us a chronicle of what happened in the last 4 years - good and bad. Going back to 1 event from 2012 which is reported here (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=172455.msg12022578#msg12022578) is not answering the question - it's selectively telling your story. Additionally, your recounting of that event sounds even more aggressive than it sounded in 2012 (both are clearly bad). Let's not do that.

The question is, what has been going on for the last 4 years - good and bad. It's a complex story and as you said days before the 2012 event and even before leaving recently that things were doing much better, It's a complex story.  You've long been conflicted about staying or leaving - its a theme that runs through all your posts here, and you now have an opportunity to work it through with the members here - but they need a complete picture. It will take some discipline to step above the emotions of the day, I know, but it will change the nature if these discussions to one that is more constructive for your family.

Fair?  

[momtario]

Hi Skip,

Thanks for clarifying -- when you said walk it back to 2011, I thought you had meant that you wanted the members here now to have an overview of everything.

As I'd said, a semi-unexpected pregnancy led me to the decision not to leave, and things did get a lot better. I've been told I'm very lucky, because for a lot of abused women, things tend to get a whole lot worse during pregnancy. A few weeks after S3 was born, I was considering leaving before things could get bad again (as was my plan), but I became very ill with postpartum OCD and postpartum depression. The silver lining there was that I was able to truly accept that I needed help, myself.

My GP put me on antidepressants which helped me to clear my head a bit, and I started really working on some of the issues that I brought into my relationship. The issues that I have as a result of my relationship, however, remain untouched. With the help of a counselor, I was able to get a grip on my intrusive thoughts, and turn my depression around, to the extent where I was able to function again. I suppose the CBT that I use to accept and dismiss my intrusive thoughts from my OCD has helped with managing the PTSD symptoms. I'm off on another tangent, and I apologize. When I'm writing is when I tend to have a lot of "aha" moments.

The point to all of that is that my (RS) uNPDh saw that the counseling and medication was helping me to feel a lot better, and he started asking a few questions that implied he was thinking of seeking help himself. When S3 was about 11 months old, I became dangerously ill with mastitis, and was hospitalized with septicemia. (RS)uNPDh went from high functioning to low functioning very rapidly over the following weeks, and finally sought help for himself. He started seeing a pdoc and a counselor, and was dx with major depression, then bipolar, and more recently, a large question mark. Pdoc went on sabbatical and he's currently on a waiting list for a RTC to hopefully get a correct dx.

It's been a long road for him, trying medication after medication, going on short term disability to long term disability, to losing his job, but he was trying, which was enough for me at the time. When his medication was in perfect balance, things would go fairly well in the sense that there was no physical abuse. I took the stance that a husband who was low functioning and relatively non-violent and actively trying to get better was far better than a high functioning but violent and avoidant husband.

(TW - SI)

When D12 was 10, however, there was an incident where (RS)uNPDh slapped her in the back of the head. She then told me she was considering suicide and had gone as far as checking to see what a belt around her neck would feel like. That was a huge wake up call that pushed me into action. I got her in to see a counselor, who did a duty to report with FCS, which was our first involvement with them. Things were really starting to look up for a long time, because we got support for appropriate parenting, and the FCS and children's therapists were involved for almost a year. (RS)uNPDh seemed to be doing really well with the new tools he had learned, and I was definitely benefiting from using the parenting tools. Then everyone patted themselves on the back for a job well done, and went our separate ways.

It took about 6 months for selfish parenting to creep back into (RS)uNPDh's behaviour, and about a year before the actual abuse started again. Even then, things were a lot better than they had been, so I was pulled (too easily) back into trying to manage his moods for him. Like all codependents, I thought I was helping him, but it turns out I was doing the exact opposite. I became his mother, and did all of the "adulting" for both of us. He reverted to toddlerhood, and started taking tantrums and raging when he didn't get his way. Which for some reason that I haven't figured out yet, caused me to just make sure he was getting his way. And it worked, for a while. On some level, I knew it wasn't healthy, so I started considering coming back to bpdfamily.com, not wanting to waste what should have been an incredible opportunity to make real lasting changes for our family. After all, he wanted to change, and I was the one holding us in our old patterns. I needed to learn to let (force?) him be an adult on his own.

He was struggling with staying awake for more than an hour or two at a time, and our GP decided to try a different medication that might not sedate him quite so heavily. This was in June or July of this year. I returned home from work to discover that he had pushed D12's head against the tv stand several times, then took a pillow, covered her torso with it, and proceeded to punch her several times through the pillow. That was when I went back to FCS.

Over the course of the summer, I was working very hard on myself, trying to decide how I wanted to live the rest of my life, and trying to confront the more difficult aspects of myself, my husband, and our marriage. Our FCS worker wrote up a voluntary service agreement (VSA) for us, and we signed it. In it was a detailed plan to prevent (RS)uNPDh from having the opportunity to harm our children further while I was trying to pay all of the bills for our family on my minimum wage job, which meant picking up as many hours as they would allow.

The VSA detailed that our children would be placed in subsidized daycare, and at times when the daycare was closed, (RS)uNPDh would rely on family members or on going to community events to allow him to never be alone with the children.

(RS)uNPDh destroyed the daycare application, and refused to take the children out of the house for increased supervision and/or public visibility.   

[momtario]

The incident with the pillow was really the one that got the ball rolling, because as I was describing it to the new child therapist that D12 is going to be seeing, I had a moment where I pulled my head out of the sand and realized that it made absolutely no sense for me to be in a marriage with someone that was at risk of doing something like that to our child.

On the advice of an old friend, I started seeing an outreach counselor from the shelter to help me sort out some of my thoughts and feelings surrounding everything from the last several years, and it came as a bit of a surprise to me that I was one of the higher risk cases she's had, but if you look at the lists of things that go into assessing dangerousness in abusers, and you plug the facts in, it's a pretty high level of risk. The Mosaic Method assessment was a 9 out of 10.

I realized that I had to remove my feelings from the equation, and act on the facts that lasting change was unlikely, and that it was irresponsible of me to remain in a house with someone that is at high risk of seriously harming myself and my children.

The outreach counselor really advocated for me with FCS, and helped me to tell the social worker the everything that was really happening. I had decided to leave, but didn't think things would happen quite as quickly as they did. I'd just gone through with applying for social housing that afternoon, and after going into only a few details, my FCS social worker asked if I was willing to leave that night, because he wasn't comfortable allowing (RS)uNPDh to be alone with the children. That was a Tuesday, and I told him I needed a few days to wrap my head around things, but that I would go to the shelter at the slightest hint of a threat. So we (shelter outreach worker, shelter outreach children's worker, FCS social worker, and myself) developed a plan to get together Monday morning the next week, gather the children from school, and head to the shelter.

By Thursday, I couldn't do it anymore. The stress of knowing what my plan was and not acting on it was making it impossible for me to eat or sleep, and I started having panic attacks again. So I got together with my outreach counselor and moved the plan up to the Friday morning, and set about saying goodbye to my old life.

The next morning, I told (RS)uNPDh that I was heading out to work, and that's the last time I saw him, or my house, or my dogs (who I still plan to collect when it's safe to do so).

A custody evaluation is unnecessary at this time, because FCS has determined that for the foreseeable future, (RS)uNPDh is only to have access to the children under heavy supervision in the FCS office's access center.

Special occasions like birthdays and Christmas, 2 responsible family members has been the agreed supervision. Tomorrow is D9's 10th birthday, so hopefully her visit with her Dad will go well.

I haven't filed for divorce yet because it's a lot fewer hoops to jump through if you wait a year before doing so. I am working on getting approved for legal aid, and then finding a lawyer, and then having legal separation papers drawn up.

I purposefully told the FCS worker enough details to ensure that I had no choice but to leave and stay gone, because I know I tend to sit on the fence between leaving and staying. I gave myself the push that I required to take serious action. And it will be a long time with a lot of things changing before I'm allowed to consider going back. If I do return to the marriage at this point, my children will be removed from the home.

[momtario]

Now, I'm at the shelter until I know I can bring myself to phone the police if he shows up.

Can you explain?

If he were to show up at my new place, I could let him in if the children were not with me. Given the circumstances involving his extensive abuse (physical, verbal, emotional, neglect) toward the children, if they were at home, I would not be allowed to let him in. If he were to refuse to leave, I would have no choice but to call the police to have him removed.

This is why I keep refusing his (seemingly reasonable and generous) offer to leave what was our home for me to live there. The deed is in his name, and if he isn't actively abusing anyone, he would have the right to be there as well. Also, if he were, we're far out of town, and police response would be anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes.  

This is a pretty typical response (no judgement either way) in the weeks after a spouse leaves. Has he now calmed down?

He's no longer threatening to kidnap the kids, but he is still doing some attempts at manipulation. I've stopped responding to most of it, because repeating myself seems unnecessary.

No contact doesn't seem like a good idea and is likely to inflame matters. You have been down this path many times so it is reasonable that he will do the same things that helped reunite you in the past. What you need is peaceful communication via a safe medium, like email (which also creates a record) and, at least temporary, a request to give each other space (for 1 week, 2 weeks, other) to think. Reduce the threat that something is imminent and he will calm down - everyone will be safer.

It sounds like the discussions are now about the children. That's good.

I've tried requesting space, and the best I can do now is attempt to enforce that boundary by only responding to talk about the children. I've been sucked into conversations about us in an attempt to explain my stance, but as I said above, it seems pointless to repeat myself at this point. He's a very intelligent person, and I have no doubt he's read and understood (on an academic level, if not an emotional one) the things I've been saying. This goes back to the beliefs that are keeping me stuck, and that there are no "right words" to make him understand. Hopefully time will help.

[momtario]

Going back to 1 event from 2012 which is reported here (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=172455.msg12022578#msg12022578) is not answering the question - it's selectively telling your story. Additionally, your recounting of that event sounds even more aggressive than it sounded in 2012 (both are clearly bad). Let's not do that.

It was completely telling my story (and selectively telling only the bad parts of the bigger picture), because in 2012 when I wrote this, I wasn't ready to tell the whole thing. What I did tell was bad enough. I went back and read the advice I received after posting that day, and I wish I had taken it then. I wish I had been ready to take it then. But I was not, and all I can say to that at this point is that it may have taken me four years, but I've followed it now and it definitely started with the advice I received on the boards then.

[Skip]

extensive abuse (physical... .

Again, let me encourage you to back away from sensationalizing or "feelings" terms and be specific. Extensive physical abuse, like extensive injuries means something very different that slapping on the back of the head in 2012, almost pinning your daughter down, and covering her will a pillow and punching the pillow in 2016.

"Felony rape" is different that "semi-unexpected pregnancy".

Divorces is different than "separated for two weeks".

Here's why. If your husband felony raped you (vs "semi-unexpected pregnancy" and was regularly inflicting extensive physical damage on your daughter (vs being a hot head husband that was verbally intimidating at times and who escalated to non-injurious physicality with your daughter on 2 occasions in 4 years), the advice members are going to offer is going to be different and have a vastly different focus.

Right now the story is confusing and there are conflicting statements.

We don't want to get in the middle of this dispute and validate one side against the other - we want to help you process this crisis in a mature way and do what is best for you and your family. To help we need a very realistic understanding of what is going on. We won't judge.

If I do return to the marriage at this point, my children will be removed from the home.

You implied earlier that if you told them the whole story / truth that it may have implicated you as putting the children in harms way and they would be taken away from you.

Is this true? Can you paint us a clear picture of what has been going on?

[formflier]

My family was involved with CPS over one summer.  I was the one that "called them".

The key was that both my wife and I (separately and together) did extensive counseling/therapy and did a therapeutic separation.

CPS monitored all of this.  In the end, CPS "found nobody at fault"... .(nothing actionable) and case was closed.

Couple big picture observations.

If your CPS experience is used to "prove" who is right/wrong... .good/bad... .your entire family will loose.

If your CPS experience encourages each of you to figure out how to be healthier parents and a better spouse, perhaps you will find a healthier future.

Can you examine your thinking from this point of view:

What type of counseling experiences would CPS recommend that would help us be better parents and get us to the point where we have their blessing to live together again as a family?

Note:  CPS can't "force" you to stay together.  You won't "have to" stay together.  I'm certain that whatever your family looks like in the future, if you focus on being a better parent (under professional guidance), the relationships will be better as well.

CPS ended up being a net positive for my family.  My wife is still ticked off about it from time to time.  I don't engage on the topic and it quickly dies out.  

Focus on making this a positive experience for your family.  

FF

[momtario]

Again, let me encourage you to back away from sensationalizing or "feelings" terms and be specific. Extensive physical abuse, like extensive injuries means something very different that slapping on the back of the head in 2012, almost pinning your daughter down, and covering her will a pillow and punching the pillow in 2016.

"Felony rape" is different that "semi-unexpected pregnancy".

Divorces is different than "separated for two weeks".


Right now the story is confusing and there are conflicting statements.

We don't want to get in the middle of this dispute and validate one side against the other - we want to help you process this crisis in a mature way and do what is best for you and your family. To help we need a very realistic understanding of what is going on. We won't judge.

Sorry for being unclear. It's difficult for me still to think about, let alone discuss, some of these things, and I did say it might take a few tries.

By extensive abuse, I meant the extensive amount of cumulative abuse over the last 9-10 years. It's involved several specific incidents of physical assaults on the children that I've gone into in this thread and others. The injuries were never extensive or severe, but the risk of serious injury as a direct result of the physical abuse, has been.

I'm working on a timeline of incidents that I can remember, to provide FCS. It sickens me that it's become typical enough, that I don't always remember every time (RS)uNPDh hit one of the kids.

To give an overview of the child abuse (items marked with * were present to some degree during better times as well), there has been:
-hitting (mostly body/arms/legs)
-slapping (back of head, across the face, arms)
-punching (to my knowledge, only that once with closed fists, but he hit her several times and it left marks, even through the pillow)
-shoving heads into furniture
-stepping on feet hard enough to bruise
-generally being rough and physical in parenting (non-play) situations
-shoving bodies, hard
-*frequently pinning children (particularly D12) down so they had no choice but to listen to him
-*squeezing
-pinching
-pulling hair
-poking and jabbing as regular parts of "discipline"
-threatening physical violence (words, gestures, holding up objects to throw at or hit with)
-hitting with objects
-throwing objects at children (books, shoes, remote controls, popcans, etc.)
-*name calling
-*pitting children against each other
-*making D10 hit/kick/slap/bite D12
-*parentifying D12
-*constant (or near constant) criticism
-screaming and raging
-*day-sleeping soundly while caring for children, including while alone with S3 at age 2
-*attempts to isolate the children, particularly D12
-*attempted to prevent S3 from signing up for school because S3 is his emotional caretaker
-saying things a responsible adult would know are harmful to children (as an example, "I really hate you sometimes, you know"

Regarding the felony rape(s) and semi-unexpected pregnancy, they weren't mutually exclusive. The rapes were a large part of why I was planning to leave, and the resulting pregnancy that I wasn't expecting or planning for (but knew was a possibility) was what led me to stay.

Regarding FCS, and whether the children would be removed from the home, when I went to them in late June, my fear was that the children would be taken if I told them everything. I was trying to help (RS) uNPDh, not to leave him. In that case, staying would have been was exposing the children to his abuse.

After deciding I was definitely leaving, that same threat of having the children taken away if I didn't protect them became not a fear, but a tool to remain committed to my decision. Taking into account all of the complexities involved given the domestic violence and spousal abuse, FCS has agreed that I am now acting as the protective parent so I can keep the children (under the condition that I continue to protect them from (RS)uNPDh). The way our social worker worded it to (RS)uNPDh was that "the children were removed from the home due to a threat caused by him and that I went with the children as the protective parent and legal guardian."   

[momtario]

FF, thanks for the response, and for sharing your own positive experiences with CPS. 

They've "offered" (have you heard the term voluntold?) several counselling options to improve our parenting skills. Previously, we did complete some of them, and I at least found it to be really helpful.

There's a group offered by FCS called Caring Dads and (RS)uNPDh is supposed to be taking it. It deals less with everyday parenting troubles, which we covered in the previous courses and groups, and more with taking responsibility for actions that harm your children. Hopefully he's able to benefit from it.

[formflier]

I'm all for the groups and programs.  What I see in your posts are relational issues that are big and run deep.  Likely those issues will appear resistant to change.

With that in mind, I would ask your shelter or CPS if there is a way to get you involved with a family therapist.  Hopefully this person would have a PhD and have years of experience.   

The family therapist we used was in his upper 60s, had a PhD and spent most of his adult life in Psychology. 

Groups and programs are a good step but my hope for you is that to find something beyond groups.

FF