Positive qualities about you

[Will2Power]

All of us seemed to have this tenacity to “never give up” when it came to our pwBPD. No matter how much they couldn’t help themselves, no matter how much abuse we endured... .we wanted to save them with our love and we wanted them to be better. Now, I know this isn’t everyone’s exact feeling. (Comment yours if it differs.)

Yesterday, I had two interviews for a counseling internship for my masters program. Both interviewers said something to the effect of this: “most young clinicians get very let down when they see that their clients make very little progress. It’s a huge let down for some, and they get very frustrated/upset.”

I just kind of smiled. I said that I was anticipating that, and that I am asset to the profession BECAUSE I anticipate that. I didn’t disclose my BPD experience, but I feel like it’s prepared me for anything in the counseling field.

Where in your occupation can you use this experience to channel your tenacity?

Now, I know I was not his therapist, but it certainly felt that way most of the time. He even used to use that in arguments. He would say “is this how you are going to be as a therapist? You are going to talk to your clients this way? You’ll suck. You’ll fail.” etc... Of course I would remind him that I was NOT his therapist.

Okay, that’s enough disclaimers... .

I started to think about how no matter what my BPD did, I never gave up on him. I tried harder at the relationship than anything else. I think there is something to be said about our innate tenacity. I think we all have this incredible ability to be pushed and pushed, but keep trying every path. “Fall down seven times, stand up eight.”

Obviously there is not such a thing as “being able to handle abuse”, but I suppose I’m trying to be optimistic about some insight I have gathered about myself. And that is, I’m a fighter, and I don’t run at the first sight of problems. While I know NC is best, and not a sign of weakness, focusing on this aspect of tenacity makes me feel kind of warrior-like.

We are all tough, altruistic people. We are loving people. We may feel weak depending on where we are in our stage of healing, but we stronger than we can see. It is admirable how hard we tried. Even if it wasn’t work related, or goal related. It was related to love... .and I think that the fact that it was related to love goes to show what authentic, selfless people we are.

Are there any other positive qualities you all have been able to figure out about yourself through your relationship?

[Insom]

Hi, Will2Power! 

It sounds like you're skilled at looking on the bright side of things!  I can relate very much to wanting to focus on positive outcomes. 

He would say “is this how you are going to be as a therapist? You are going to talk to your clients this way? You’ll suck. You’ll fail.” etc... Of course I would remind him that I was NOT his therapist.

What was it like for you to hear these put-downs? 

Obviously there is not such a thing as “being able to handle abuse”, but I suppose I’m trying to be optimistic about some insight I have gathered about myself.

Where do you think your tenacity/ability to handle abuse came from?  What prepared you for this role?

[Speck]

This is a great thread, Will2Power!

All of us seemed to have this tenacity to “never give up” when it came to our pwBPD. No matter how much they couldn’t help themselves, no matter how much abuse we endured... .we wanted to save them with our love and we wanted them to be better.

My pwBPD walked away from our marriage four times, and I allowed her to recycle me three. After the fourth time, I finally gave up. My love wasn't enough.

Where in your occupation can you use this experience to channel your tenacity?

In my occupation, I work with patients, too. I am quite protective of them and their recovery. When I clock into work, I clock myself out, so that I can be the best advocate for them that I can be. I am very mindful of this and believe that my patients deserve great care.
 

Are there any other positive qualities you all have been able to figure out about yourself through your relationship?

I would have taken a bullet for my uBPDxw. During our marriage, we did a LOT of hiking through bear country. I remember thinking several times that if we were to encounter a bear, I would have fought the bear to the death (probably mine) to give her time to escape. That's how much I loved her.


-Speck

[gotbushels]

Will2Power    thank you for sharing.

I just kind of smiled. ... .

I'm really liking this example. I like how you're turning the experience into a strength when it makes sense for you to do it.   

Where in your occupation can you use this experience to channel your tenacity?

For me, when I deal with a customer, I use the experience to see what's an issue and what's not. So pick the battles. A previous boss used to basically say everything's fine in the land of "infinite resources". This is similar to the 'pick the time' thing when handling a pwBPD.

I think there is something to be said about our innate tenacity. I think we all have this incredible ability to be pushed and pushed, but keep trying every path. “Fall down seven times, stand up eight.”

Yes I think tenacity is a strength. From there I also think it's about learning about our own limits and costs. Some fights with a pwBPD can go 6 hours or intermittently over days/weeks. One thing I learned from the members here is that in creating boundaries, you're also simultaneously making a choice to save your emotional energy for the big issues. I think it was waverider and an0ught that were talking about alternatives to SET.

On a related note, Lawson (quoting Masterson) talks about pwBPDs tending toward workaholic-style and never-present (?) fathers.

They relinquish their paternal prerogatives in exchange for complete freedom to immerse themselves in their work

In my mind, that accentuates the importance of knowing our own limits when it comes to exertion. E.g., if you have 100% attention, give 110% at work on Monday (tenacity), find you're left with 90% Tuesday, it won't help you if you spend the rest on your wife and nothing else. Of course, when children get involved this is where this will get even harder.

So sometimes I think it's less about trying to beat a situation with a given method, and more about knowing our own limits. 

[toomanydogs]

What a cool thread.

I was incredibly tenacious with my STBX. I was with him for 11 years, 10 of which we were married. I was his champion. I fought for him, defended him, explained him, and stayed with him. I was able to stay with him for as long as I did by learning all I could about mental illness in general and BPD in particular.

For some people, tenacity is another word for stubborn, and that I am. I brought that to the marriage. I'm also an ENFP (Meyer-Briggs), and I tend to champion causes. Fight for the downtrodden. I taught for 15 years at community college, where the majority of students were first-generation. I taught these students how to write when they grew up believing they had nothing to say that an instructor would want to hear.

I fought for those students just as I fought for my STBX, fought his docs, his parents, anyone I thought was a 'threat' to him.

Now that I'm wrapping up the divorce, I am seriously considering going to law school. I had wanted to be a lawyer when I went to grad school but opted against it because I wanted to be a public interest lawyer, and fight for children's rights and animal rights and all those kinds of cases that pay nothing.

Now, in retirement, I could return to law school and work pro bono without it having a devastating impact on my finances.

Cool thread. The tenacity I channel into my writing, primarily in finishing what I'm working on. 

TMD

[Jeffree]

All of us seemed to have this tenacity to “never give up” when it came to our pwBPD.

This is basically true for me.

No matter how much they couldn’t help themselves, no matter how much abuse we endured... .we wanted to save them with our love and we wanted them to be better.

However, what I was willing to endure with her was due to my attempt to try and save her bio kids first and foremost (since they were the innocent ones in this scenario) once I saw how horribly she parented them, then her relationships with her bio kids, then try and save our marriage.

I was not actually trying to save her per se, especially since she NEVER EVER thought she needed saving and it was everyone else who needed to learn how to live their lives as she thought they should. Plus, I knew she was a grown up and set in her ways, so it was only inflammatory to try and help that.

All I ever seemed to truly be doing was trying to get her to see me as I really was, instead of how she kept assizing me and turning my every action and word into the worst things possible.

Are there any other positive qualities you all have been able to figure out about yourself through your relationship?


Not really. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it really fall? Likewise, if good actions go ignored are they really good?

But I get where you're coming from, and yes we all should see the good in what we represent and are about.

J

[Lucky Jim]

Hey W2P, Agree w/all above: this is a great thread.  Yes, we Nons are a tenacious bunch.  Let's add, loyal, persistent and forgiving.  The question I ponder is: when do these good qualities become liabilities?  At what point is our loyalty misplaced?  When does our tenacity become a Lose/Lose strategy?  Is forgiveness a wise response to abuse?  Is persistence appropriate if a person is crying "Wolf"?

I have my own ideas, but would be interested to hear first from all you wise folks!

LuckyJim

[toomanydogs]

Let's add, loyal, persistent and forgiving.  The question I ponder is: when do these good qualities become liabilities?  At what point is our loyalty misplaced?  When does our tenacity become a Lose/Lose strategy?  Is forgiveness a wise response to abuse?  Is persistence appropriate if a person is crying "Wolf"?

I have my own ideas, but would be interested to hear first from all you wise folks!

LuckyJim

Hey LJ,
 For me those strengths--tenacity, forgiveness, and the rest--became liabilities when they prevented my own personality from emerging, when they kept my other strengths abandoned.
  Example: I'm a writer. When I met my STBX, I spent too much time writing his stuff not my own.
  I remember telling him he could lean on me as he got "better" but he had no interest in getting "better," because he wasn't the one who was ill (except when it suited him); all the other people in his life were the ill ones.
 About three or four years ago, I worked really hard with my T to establish firm and clear boundaries with STBX, so that I could pursue my work, my life, my friends, my health. Not his work, his illness, his despair. He was pulling me down instead of my pulling him up. And because I don't understand why anyone would prefer to be unhappy, I kept thinking he just wasn't getting it, and maybe I should be a bit louder, a bit clear, a bit more insistent.
  Naw. I needed to let go. I needed to see him as someone who was choosing not to help himself. And that was exceedingly hard.
TMD

[Lucky Jim]

He was pulling me down instead of my pulling him up. And because I don't understand why anyone would prefer to be unhappy, I kept thinking he just wasn't getting it, and maybe I should be a bit louder, a bit clear, a bit more insistent.
  Naw. I needed to let go. I needed to see him as someone who was choosing not to help himself. And that was exceedingly hard.

Nicely said, TMD.  Love that part about him pulling you down rather than you pulling him up.  So true!  There is a great quote by Kingsley Amis in which he says (I'm paraphrasing a little here): It's no use trying to save those who fundamentally would rather not be saved."  That strikes a chord w/me.

LJ

[Cromwell]

Interesting thread, triggered some flashbacks at least.

one of them being my ex saying "you should be a therapist, youve got the right voice for it"
aswell as my therapist saying I should be one.

It makes me realise that a big part of my relationship was based around providing (untrained, unqualified) free therapy to my ex. She did eventually open up to me more than anyone else and told me she couldnt cry except for when with me. (not sure how much of this was melodrama or factual).
How has the experience brought out positive qualities? Well, ive got the patience of a saint, the things that she did to me I wont go into but I have no idea I never said a bad word back, never mind become violent. those feelings did bubble under the surface towards the worst of her times. In hindsight I was more open to her and trusting than anyone id been with before, based on how deep emotionally I got. The fact that she used it all against me, told all and sundry about it, has been in some ways a total collapse of my trusting nature and something thats made me more guarded, but at the same time I got alot of my own issues out. Note for future; rather pay for a licenced professional bound by privacy laws.

Someone once said, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger, I feel that the skills I used to survive this would be close in comparison to perhaps, anti torture techniques taught to special forces groups, I think if I ever get captured by a terrorist group my chances of negotiating my release will be significantly beyond the average captive.

In the meantime, it helps me to deal with difficult customers in my part time job, just mirror them maybe thrown in a gaslight if I need to.

dont you think borderlines would be the best door to door sales reps?

good luck with your career

[Lucky Jim]

dont you think borderlines would be the best door to door sales reps?

Right, Cromwell, those w/BPD can be quite convincing, at least in the moment.  Yet when I stepped back and thought about the stuff my BPD used to say to justify her behavior, I sensed that something was off.  My BPDxW was known as the unofficial "Mayor" of our small town, for that exact reason.  She is a gregarious raconteur and was quite adept at getting people invested in her various travails.  Neighbors invited us over all the time to hear more of her amusing tales.  Yet it wasn't funny behind closed doors when the "Mayor" became a raging abuser.

LJ

[MeandThee29]

Yes, we Nons are a tenacious bunch.  Let's add, loyal, persistent and forgiving.  The question I ponder is: when do these good qualities become liabilities?  At what point is our loyalty misplaced?  When does our tenacity become a Lose/Lose strategy?  Is forgiveness a wise response to abuse?  Is persistence appropriate if a person is crying "Wolf"?

I had few, if any boundaries. I tolerated a lot as an attempt to save my marriage which ultimately unravelled anyway. One counsellor commented that if I had put up boundaries, it would have ended earlier. But it didn't.

The isolation made it worse. Now that I'm out-and-about with friends more and see normal marriages, I wonder how I had any emotional life at all. I really didn't near the end.

[Speck]

Yesterday, I had two interviews for a counseling internship for my masters program.

Hey, Will2Power! How did your interviews go for your counseling internship?


-Speck

[Will2Power]

Hey, Will2Power! How did your interviews go for your counseling internship?


-Speck

Thanks for checking in, Speck! Lots of awesome replies that I finally read... .(I wasn’t getting emails about the replies for some reason! Ugh.) I am glad I came back to check the thread! I think all of the responses are awesome and empowering. A lot of thought provoking questions and validation too.

Update: I got both offers! So now I decide: do I work with children and families, or do I work with recovering heroine addicts? Finally being able to be doing something that I believe is rewarding work will give my life a whole new meaning. Perhaps I will invest my “I need to fix you” attitude into my clients, which will exhaust my compulsion to do it outside of work. That way, I can find a partner that I can have a give and take relationship with. Not the whole reason I went into counseling, but I’m realizing it’s an added benefit now =)

[kfry2679]

Hi! I'm a licensed therapist. (Mental health field workers unite!)

At first, I beat myself up pretty hardcore for being a therapist and getting sucked into such an unhealthy world with her BPD, but I have been able to refocus and acknowledge that I was patient and kind. Even though things were so chaotic, I did not lash out at her. She had to invent reasons to paint me black (as they all do), but I didn't give her much to work with.

Patience and kindness are my two strongest virtues, I think. And I'm almost always able to see the humor in things. Those are mine. Thank you so much for sharing yours!

[Lucky Jim]

Patience and kindness are my two strongest virtues, I think. And I'm almost always able to see the humor in things.

Those are normally great qualities, but I wonder if they might work against you in a BPD r/s?  LJ

[gotbushels]

Hi kfry2679   

I want to support you while you might be looking at Lucky Jim's idea.

At first, I beat myself up pretty hardcore for being a therapist and getting sucked into such an unhealthy world with her BPD, but I have been able to refocus and acknowledge that I was patient and kind.

Well done with your acknowledgements of your good stuff.    You being a professional in this field, I can see how you might be disappointed with yourself in not doing the "best" thing in the situation. I think it was Bowen that was discussing about the difficulties of applying techniques to a therapist's own nuclear family. So I do think that it may actually be more difficult to handle these kinds of things because you go in thinking that you have these skills, "so I should have this in the bag". I hope that helps with you considering looking at this with a bit more self-compassion. 

[kfry2679]

Those are normally great qualities, but I wonder if they might work against you in a BPD r/s?  LJ

Oh they very much worked against me in the BPD r/s, but I didn't punt them even at the peak of my frustration and was still able to get out.

[kfry2679]

Hi kfry2679   

I want to support you while you might be looking at Lucky Jim's idea.
Well done with your acknowledgements of your good stuff.    You being a professional in this field, I can see how you might be disappointed with yourself in not doing the "best" thing in the situation. I think it was Bowen that was discussing about the difficulties of applying techniques to a therapist's own nuclear family. So I do think that it may actually be more difficult to handle these kinds of things because you go in thinking that you have these skills, "so I should have this in the bag". I hope that helps with you considering looking at this with a bit more self-compassion. 

Thank you so much for this! I read a Kristen Neff's book on self-compassion last year and have made it a goal to practice as often as possible.