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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: More than a month after police incident  (Read 439 times)
MiaP
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« on: April 23, 2018, 01:16:24 PM »

Hello,

it's been more than a month since the police incident, I wrote about it here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=322720.0

I have been feeling optimistic because I have managed to have little contact (necessary because of our 2 daughters). 

It's amazing what a few weeks without the anxiety of what will happen once I get home and just being able to relax in my own house can do! I can change the furniture if I want to, I can declutter all I want!

Unfortunately, I'm still not able to fully relax because all this time he has tried different approaches, ranging from giving me the silent treatment (which is welcome... .) and texting and emailing a lot. We did talk on one occasion (new strategy: calling the land line so that he can "talk to the girls". He told me has been going to see his therapist and taking his medication. He did seem more aware of his past behaviours, acknowledging that he scares me sometimes, apologising, he even said that he was such a monster, he was so awful to me that he understands why I had to call the police. Still, it's as if in some level he doesn't fully get how abusive his behaviour is.

I've been trying to be consistent, not replying to text messages, just wrote a couple of emails with information regarding the girls, as short and polite as possible. However, days and weeks go by and just as everything seems better he charges again, begging me to take him back. I'm honestly at a loss of what else to do to make him understand that our relationship is over.

Just an example of what he says:"I have done everything possible to give you space, I have not tried to find you at work or at home, you must give just one more opportunity".

How is one supposed to live, work, go about and have a life always looking above the shoulder?


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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 04:43:50 PM »

Excerpt
Just an example of what he says:"I have done everything possible to give you space, I have not tried to find you at work or at home, you must give just one more opportunity".

Hey MiaP, It sounds like you are making progress and doing a good job of staying firm in response to his efforts at F-O-G, as you note above, which sounds like a clumsy attempt at manipulation by claiming you "owe" him another chance.  You don't owe him anything, in my view, and suggest you continue to do what is right for you.

LuckyJim

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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2018, 12:30:33 PM »

Hello MiaP,

How is one supposed to live, work, go about and have a life always looking above the shoulder?

I'd like to echo what Lucky Jim says in that you don't owe another grown adult anything. If you feel as though you are always looking over your shoulder, then that indicates that you are scared of him, and any reunion would be unbalanced at best. Take good care of YOU and your girls.

Keep writing if it helps.


-Speck
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MiaP
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 09:41:52 AM »

Hello Lucky Jim and Speck,

he does talk as if I owe him something but I no longer feel that I do. I feel very sorry that our r/s is over because I wanted my children to have both parents present in their life. I feel sorry because I did love him and did everything in my power to help him. I did give him many chances.

I have come to the terrible realization that no matter how much I keep trying and giving, it will never be enough.

Every time he tries to use his daughters to get to me I feel a little more distant from him.

He's still trying to convince me to give him "just one more chance". I've tried diffrent ways of telling him that's not going to happen. Is it just letting time go by a good idea? Giving it time to let him understand that it just isn't going to happen?

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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 11:46:21 AM »

Excerpt
I have come to the terrible realization that no matter how much I keep trying and giving, it will never be enough.

Hello again, MiaP, Right, I came to the same realization and used to say that my Ex's motto was, "Never Enough"!  I thought that we would reach an emotional plateau when things would level out, but it proved to be a mirage that we could never attain.  It's a bottomless pit that you can't fill, as hard as you try.  At least that was my experience.  Sounds like it was yours, too.

Excerpt
he does talk as if I owe him something but I no longer feel that I do.

No, you don't owe him anything.  Suggest you be careful about this emotional arm-twisting and stay firm.  You're doing a great job at keeping your boundaries!

LuckyJim
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 12:25:00 PM »

Hi MiaP,

Your post made me think of an old article here (it's archived) which I've referred to a few times and has been helpful.  It's about leaving a BPD partner and one of the sections I remembered it has is about 'follow up protection' and I feel it might be helpful to you after reading what you're experiencing.  You may be doing all of this already, and in which case this could help you to trust your instincts and stick with it in the hopes that it ought to work in your favour.  It refers to our ex partners as "The Borderline" which isn't my personal preference for how to describe an individual who suffers from mental illness, but the content itself may be useful.  I have it bookmarked in case the day ever comes... .Here's the extract I'm referring to:

Excerpt
Follow-up Protection

"The Borderline" never sees their responsibility or involvement in the difficulties in the relationship. From a psychological standpoint, "The Borderline" has lived and behaved in this manner most of their life, clearly all of their adult life. As they really don't see themselves at fault or as an individual with a problem, "The Borderline" tends to think that the girlfriend or boyfriend is simply going through a phase - their partner (victim) might be temporarily mixed up or confused, they might be listening to the wrong people, or they might be angry about something and will get over it soon. "The Borderline" rarely detaches completely and will often try to continue contact with the partner even after the relationship is terminated. During the Follow-up Protection period, some guidelines are:

- Never change your original position. It's over permanently! Don't talk about possible changes in your position in the future. You might think that will calm "The Borderline" but it only tells them that the possibilities still exist and only a little more pressure is needed to return to the relationship.

- Don't agree to meetings or reunions to discuss old times. For "The Borderline", discussing old times is actually a way to upset you, put you off guard, and use the guilt to hook you again.

- Don't offer details about your new life or relationships. Assure him that both his life and your life are now private and that you hope they are happy.

- If you start feeling guilty during a phone call, get off the phone fast. More people return to bad marriages and relationships due to guilt than anything else. If you listen to those phone calls, as though taping them, you'll find "The Borderline" spends most of the call trying to make you feel guilty.

- In any contact with the ex "Borderline", provide only a status report, much like you'd provide to your Aunt Gladys. For example: "I'm still working hard and not getting any better at tennis. That's about it."

- When "The Borderline" tells you how difficult the break-up has been, share with him some general thoughts about breaking-up and how finding the right person is difficult. While "The Borderline" wants to focus on your relationship, talk in terms of Ann Landers - "Well, breaking up is hard on anyone. Dating is tough in these times. I'm sure we'll eventually find someone that's right for both of us." Remember - nothing personal!

- Keep all contact short and sweet - the shorter the better. As far as "The Borderline" is concerned, you're always on your way somewhere, there's something in the microwave, or your mother is walking up the steps to your home. Wish "The Borderline" well but always with the same tone of voice that you might offer to someone you have just talked to at the grocery store. For phone conversations, electronic companies make a handy gadget that produces about twenty sounds - a doorbell, an oven or microwave alarm, a knock on the door, etc. That little device is handy to use on the phone - the microwave dinner just came out or someone is at the door. Do whatever you have to do to keep the conversation short - and not personal.

Let me know if any of this sounds helpful to you and if you are interested in reading the remainder of the article (there is more content that follows this section) you can access it Here

Love and light x
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MiaP
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2018, 04:45:33 AM »

I thought that we would reach an emotional plateau when things would level out, but it proved to be a mirage that we could never attain.  It's a bottomless pit that you can't fill, as hard as you try.  At least that was my experience.  Sounds like it was yours, too.
It has tottaly been my experience. On some days it seemed as if he was happy and I would think that I had done enough, I had been supportive, I had had been appreciattive, but even those moments were just random occasions, whatever I did seldom had a logical response from him (from MPV at least).

No, you don't owe him anything.  Suggest you be careful about this emotional arm-twisting and stay firm.  You're doing a great job at keeping your boundaries!
Thank you for the encouragement, not sure I'm doing such a great job but all the suggestions here and supportment really help.
[/quote]

Harley Quinn, the article is great, exactly what I need right now.

Take care!
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2018, 11:03:40 AM »

Glad to hear it MiaP.  Do keep us posted with how things are going and how you're getting on with your detaching and healing.  It's a bumpy road and a little easier if we give each other a hand along the way.

Love and light x
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2018, 12:58:15 AM »

Hello MiaP, I was wondering how you were doing today, and found and caught up on this thread.  Hopefully with time things will get better.  Keep us posted!

WW
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MiaP
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 12:20:40 PM »

Hello,

At the moment he's still trying to convince me to give him "just one more chance”, saying we have to meet to talk face to face making me feel guilty for all sorts of reasons to get me to agree. I have maintained my position, that we will not get back together but I have kept some contact.

I think giving it time to let him understand that it just isn't going to happen is not working. I would appreciate opinions and past experiences on this.

I was hoping that time would show him that reconciliation is not going to happen and that that he will not be alone as he says, he still has a family, that he is able to spend at least some time with the girls and take good care of them even if I’m not there.

However, I feel as if I’m sending the wrong message, that perhaps in the future there is a change for reconciliation. It is not the case and that is not what I want him to think. Maybe doing this is even unfair to him because it’s as if I’m stringing him along.

I was called in to Child Protection Services, they wanted to know what the situation with the children is like. I was told that we will have to make a custody arrangement, since we have no legal custody in place at the moment. ExBPD will be called in too and let’s see what happens then, I don’t expect him to react very well.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2018, 01:03:41 PM »

Excerpt
At the moment he's still trying to convince me to give him "just one more chance”, saying we have to meet to talk face to face making me feel guilty for all sorts of reasons to get me to agree.

Hey MiaP, It's OK if you feel guilty, but that doesn't mean you should meet and/or give him one more chance.  He's manipulating you with F-O-G.  Your task is to notice what's happening, but not react to it.

Sound like Child Protection Services may be helpful.

To me it doesn't sound like you are giving him mixed messages.

Hang in there and keep us posted,
LuckyJim
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2018, 02:25:07 PM »

Hi MiaP,

Excerpt
I was hoping that time would show him that reconciliation is not going to happen and that that he will not be alone as he says, he still has a family, that he is able to spend at least some time with the girls and take good care of them even if I’m not there.

Have you verbalised any of this to him?  What do your conversations involve?  As long as you have any conversation with him which shows compassion and care about his well being, even if that entails letting him know he'll be OK without you, he will likely feel he has a shot at changing your mind. 

Do you need to discuss childcare arrangements with him directly?  What I'm alluding to is could this be handled by CPS or the court?  That would allow you to step back short term from having a reason for discussions.  However, as a parent if you are to share responsibility for care of children it is likely at some point you will want to converse. 

My advice for this is to utilise BIFF as a method of communication, which will mean that no feelings are talked about, nothing personal about you or your life and nothing outside of what needs to be addressed - namely the children.  Just having the acronym BIFF (brief, informative, friendly, firm) in my mind when I deal with my son's father allows me to keep things on track and not get drawn into anything sticky (emotionally charged).  If you've not read about this before, we have a workshop HERE which outlines the technique.  Although it is advised for hostility, persistence in attempting to get you to change or relinquish your boundaries is a violation and when he does get the message that you won't play ball, you can probably (to be fair) expect some backlash.  Whether or not this proves useful right now, I suspect that at some stage you'll be glad of it, as I am.

Love and light x       
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2018, 04:05:56 PM »

MiaP,

Do you have a lawyer who can help you with advice concerning child protective services?  Can you reach out to a local domestic violence women's group for support?  You don't necessarily have to be dealing with physical violence to be able to get support.  They likely will have a lot of experience helping women navigate through CPS.  You may also want to read the book, "Splitting," by Bill Eddy and Randi Krieger.  It is specifically about separating from someone with BPD.  There is a discussion of how people with BPD can get emotional and mislead official people like CPS representatives and the courts that I believe you would find helpful to read.

Above all, official people like to see the persons they are talking to as "problem solvers" and not emotional or acting out.  If they see you as a problem solver with the best interests of the girls in mind, who is looking for constructive solutions, things will likely go better.

How do you feel about the CPS involvement?  You seem balanced, thoughtful, and caring in your approach to these things.  I"m sure you'll do well, especially with a little extra prep and support if you can get it.

WW
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MiaP
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 07:53:02 AM »

Hello,

thank you for all the encouragement and advice.

The meeting I had at CPS went well, I had no idea what they were going to say, but I think they can be a big help. Unfortunately exBPD sees their intervention as a threat. I was told that they need the parents consent to intervene but if we do not grant them our consent the matter will be sent to court.

Have you verbalised any of this to him?  What do your conversations involve?  As long as you have any conversation with him which shows compassion and care about his well being, even if that entails letting him know he'll be OK without you, he will likely feel he has a shot at changing your mind.
I have verbalised all of this to him but I have a hard time just saying that sort of thing without feeling sorry and preocupation about him so I think you are right, no matter what I say, he keeps thinking that there is a chance because of "how" I say it. For now, I have to disscuss childcare arrangements with him directly, since we have no legal arrangement in place.

Although it is advised for hostility, persistence in attempting to get you to change or relinquish your boundaries is a violation and when he does get the message that you won't play ball, you can probably (to be fair) expect some backlash. 
At least for now he has changed his speech, he is now saying he wants joint custody and wants to take his daughter to live with him (my stepdaughter who at the moment lives with me). As I see it, it's the one thing he hadn't tried yet, getting to me throught the girls. I am terrified of what he'll try to do, afraid of spending years in court and endless fighting. On the other hand I hope this means he has gotten the message that our relationship is over.

Just ordered the book "Splitting" and I'm bracing myself for what is coming... .
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 10:07:59 PM »

Glad you ordered the book!  Let us know what you think!  One of Eddy's main points in Splitting is that we must avoid the extremes of either lying down and doing nothing, or battling aggressively.  He advocates what he calls an "assertive" approach which is in between the two extremes.  Many of us "nons" are inclined to be "too nice" in the beginning.

This is going to be hard.  I think you may have avoided fireworks for a while by deferring a final resolution of everything.  You will get to the other side.  We will support you.  You are not alone.

WW
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2018, 03:08:56 AM »

How are things going Mia?

It sounds like he has changed tactic. I might suggest that you be direct in your contact and say that you will only discuss the childcare arrangements and any other talk about custody can be directed to your lawyer. I'm interested to know if you have given BIFF a try to keep the conversation just on the arrangements for the children. How soon do you see a legal arrangement for their care being put into place?

Love and light x
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 08:35:32 AM »

Hi,

he keeps changing tactis mostly between these two extremes, sometimes I am the love of his life, other times I'm horrible and he tries to attack in ways he knows will affect me. He hadn't ever mentioned custody or anything like that before. On the one hand that terrified me but on the other maybe it means he's starting to come to terms with the fact that our relationship is over.

I have to say that the change in medication and the therapy which he started some months ago are definitely showing some results. Not sure it will be enough when CPS contact him. That's when I think the real "fireworks" (as WW called it) will begin. He was upset when I told him CPS asked me what our r/s status was and I told them we were separated!

I having been trying to keep conversation just on arrangements for the children but it's nearly impossible because he keeps talking (I don't talk anymore, but he just keeps on and on about how miserable he is, what problems he's been having, how hard it is for him... .). I have tried to keep our communication by email but I haven't succedd yet.

As for the timings, here were we live, courts work extremely slowly. It can take years to establish a custody. However, if exBPD agrees to determine the custody with the help of CPS and does not want to take the matter to court I suppose a custody agreement could be in place in a few months. 

You will get to the other side.  We will support you.  You are not alone.
Thank you all once again. I am very gratefull I found this community.
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2018, 10:40:04 AM »

MiaP, it's good to hear your update, thanks. 

How do you feel about the phone conversations with him?  What do you feel in your body when you see that he is calling, when you're on the phone, and when you get off the phone?  I am asking because what kinds of feelings and what level of feelings provide some cues as to how best to handle things.

How are the children doing?

WW
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MiaP
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2018, 11:05:55 AM »

The end of the relationship is hard for me, I know I still have a long way ahead to be emotionally healthy and to feel that I'm over this r/s. However, I feel that I can't really begin to move on until he accepts the end of the r/s.

Not sure if this makes sense but it's as if I feel ready to move to next phase in my life but something is holding me back. I can't allow myself to move on because he still hasn't fully accepted. I haven't managed to stop wondering how he's feeling because I know that what's happening in his life and the way he's feeling usually has an impact on how he reacts towards me. Have to stop obsessing about this... .

That being said, all the time since he first left the house, all the recycling, have gotten me to a point where I no longer see us as a couple in my mind, I no longer depend on him on anything related with day to day life. A couple of weeks ago I had a flat tire and in a normal situation I would have called him for help. I just changed the tire myself (something I had neve done before). Maybe it's a normal thing to do for most people but for me it was a moment when I realised he is not a part of my life anymore.

All this to say that when the phone rings I mostly feel annoyed but I no longer have that nervous feeling, like a physical reaction even that I used to have. I choose when to answer the calls, I don't reply to text messages anymore unless it's something really necessary about one of the girls and I don't feel all guilty about it.

When I do answer the phone I listen and I feel bad for him because I know that he does suffer but I've noticed I no longer feel like I have to go and do something about it.

The children are good, SD15 mostly does not want to spend time with her dad but deep down she feels very hurt to realise that he doesn't care as much as she would like him to. D4 misses her father but I'm doing my best to make sure she has contact with him.
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2018, 11:55:02 AM »

Hey MiaP, Yes, it is hard, yet I don't recommend waiting for him to accept the end before you move on because that could be a lengthy vigil.  If you feel ready to move on, then I would say that you are ready to move on.  Of course there are things holding you back, as there always are.  Changing your own tire, to me, was a big turning point.  You did it, so give yourself credit.  You can take the next step, too!   Thought

LuckyJim
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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2018, 09:49:39 PM »

MiaP, I was having the same thought as Lucky Jim.  You definitely can't have your future held hostage to when he is ready to move on.  I do totally understand your feeling, though -- I'm kind of in the same place.  But we both have to try to let go of that and not have our futures tied to the actions of others.

Congratulations on changing the tire!  I just taught two of my daughters to do it, and they were not very enthusiastic -- I got teenage eye rolls!  These days, it's so easy to call an auto service, changing a tire sometimes seems like a lost art.  Plus, those tires are heavy and the lug nuts can be tight!  I have a similar feeling learning or re-learning to do tasks that were in my wife's domain.

WW
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2018, 06:59:39 AM »

I totally agree that waiting isn't a good idea, who knows when he'll be ready or how many times he's going to change his mind... .I get it on a rational level but I'm not there yet. I'm working on it!

I feel as if it's another layer of dificulty on top of a separation.

Since we're talking about healing and moving on, has anyone read Margalis Fjelstad "Healing from a Narcissistic Relationship: A Caretaker's Guide to Recovery, Empowerment, and Transformation"? I can't find it in the book reviews section.

I read "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" and found it very helpful.
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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2018, 10:02:54 PM »

I haven't read the book you asked about, but today I just ordered "Stop Caretaking... ." because I've seen it referred to many times on the boards and figured I ought to develop an opinion on it.  Let us know what you think about the book!

WW
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