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Author Topic: Could all of these problems be avoided simply by how we date?  (Read 1871 times)
Husband321
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2018, 09:37:42 AM »

If the r/s is all happy and fun then why would we need to self examine?

Touching on what Cromwell said... .About how society today basically normalizes cheating etc... .

As an example, my father had me at a later age and grew up in war torn Germany. One of 13 children. He came to the USA and met my mother.  A very beautiful woman.

They were married 35 years until she passed. Now, honestly, how much do you think he delved into introspection? "Working on himself"... If I asked him today about depression it would be something he never even heard of. yet he had the tools, as did my mom, to rate children, be together everyday, and have a lifelong relationship.

And of course, I grew up in a home with one phone. If you talk, everyone is sitting around listening, ... There was no privacy, secrecy, etc. No secret apps where you see the 1000 hottest guys and girls in your neighborhood when you hit martial speed bumps. Cheating and divorce was of course frowned upon.  

I think part of the reason some of us stay in these relationships, is because when we look around, so many men I know at least, are divorced, horror stories about wife cheating, them cheating, wife vanishing, screwed with child support and cant see kids. Facebook is mentioned in 80% of divorces etc.

Even if we become much closer to perfect, and pick a much better mate, is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?  Or is that having an expectation that it too high, because people need to be happy 24/7, privacy, anonymity, and cheating is soo easy, and yes, divorce, and cheating is normalized.

I looked at my ex like "Well at least she just left her ex husband and the kids and didn't cheat and THEN screw him for 15 years of alimony and child support". As that is what I have seen happen to most people I know. And what was their husband's huge fault? The woman was not "happy" and met someone else on the internet... Along with legal financial incentives that facilitate finding "happiness".
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2018, 10:28:29 AM »

Excerpt
Touching on what Cromwell said... .About how society today basically normalizes cheating etc... .

I agree things have changed, but I don't think society normalizes cheating. I just think there is less stigma attached to it than years ago. That's different to normalizing it.

Excerpt
As an example, my father had me at a later age and grew up in war torn Germany. One of 13 children. He came to the USA and met my mother.  A very beautiful woman.

They were married 35 years until she passed. Now, honestly, how much do you think he delved into introspection? "Working on himself"... If I asked him today about depression it would be something he never even heard of. yet he had the tools, as did my mom, to rate children, be together everyday, and have a lifelong relationship.

That was exactly my experience too. My mum and dad stayed together from 18 years old until she died aged 62. My father misses her every day. However, my father had a nervous breakdown and suffers from depression. He was a serviceman in the US Air Force but feels his depression has always been there like a black dog waiting to bite him. My parents raised 5 kids too and I know they did the best they could with the tools they had.

Excerpt
And of course, I grew up in a home with one phone. If you talk, everyone is sitting around listening, ... There was no privacy, secrecy, etc. No secret apps where you see the 1000 hottest guys and girls in your neighborhood when you hit martial speed bumps. Cheating and divorce was of course frowned upon.  

Once again, I had a similar experience growing up. How is it then that we have both ended up on these boards? Do you really think it's just because we have met a range of detestable partners, or could there be something in us that perhaps was damaged in childhood? I know the answer to that in my case. In fact, my parents fought so damn much I often wished they would divorce. I don't say that lightly or with humour. It was often a tense and toxic atmosphere in my house.

Excerpt
I think part of the reason some of us stay in these relationships, is because when we look around, so many men I know at least, are divorced, horror stories about wife cheating, them cheating, wife vanishing, screwed with child support and cant see kids. Facebook is mentioned in 80% of divorces etc.

There's no doubt that social media makes it easier to meet people, but I don't think it necessarily makes people cheat. I think the unhappiness has to be there in order for people to cheat. As I said before, there is certainly less stigma attached to cheating these days and perhaps we are a worse society because of it. However, does that really explain why we got involved with BPDs and stayed in the relationships?

Excerpt
Even if we become much closer to perfect, and pick a much better mate, is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?  Or is that having an expectation that it too high, because people need to be happy 24/7, privacy, anonymity, and cheating is soo easy, and yes, divorce, and cheating is normalized.

Good question. Divorce isn't easy though. It is expensive and painful. I don't think anybody would divorce lightly. Perhaps people are less inclined to stay in unhappy relationships these days.

Excerpt
I looked at my ex like "Well at least she just left her ex husband and the kids and didn't cheat and THEN screw him for 15 years of alimony and child support". As that is what I have seen happen to most people I know. And what was their husband's huge fault? The woman was not "happy" and met someone else on the internet... Along with legal financial incentives that facilitate finding "happiness".

Are you saying that it's always women who cheat? I don't think the statistics would agree with that. Also, who are they cheating with? Men have to come into that equation too.

You sound angry Husband321 and I totally understand. I have often thought I was old fashioned and too romantic for this world. However, I am also culpable and have behaved poorly towards women I have not had the same emotional attachment to as my ex. It is a tough world in terms of love at the moment and many young people I know complain that alot of their partners just want to hook up without commitment. However, because I am a romantic at heart, I do believe it is possible to find love. We just have to get over our hurt and get back out there and play the love game again. Perhaps armed with some info about who to avoid next time?



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Husband321
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2018, 11:11:48 AM »


Good question. Divorce isn't easy though. It is expensive and painful. I don't think anybody would divorce lightly. Perhaps people are less inclined to stay in unhappy relationships these days.


Yes... .And that is partially my point...

I do not think 1 person on earth was raised "perfectly" with zero issues from childhood. They can even be minor that have an effect on us. Or major. "ad worked too much" "Mom worked too much" "Parents fought" "I was bullied" "We moved around a lot" "ad died" "Mom died""ivorce" ""poverty" "too much money" "drugs and alcohol" "sexual abuse" "Parents too demanding" "parents didn't care much" "adultery" etc etc etc

If your parents DID divorce, you may have been 10 times worse off today. It's impossible to say. Or better.

And I do not think 1 marriage on earth, in history, was a straight upward line from meeting towards extacy. Getting better and better each day.

It's always  series of ups and downs... The question is how do we handle the downs?

Do we say "Oh, well he/she isn't making me happy... Ill tell everyone and look outside my marriage". "ill have an affair". Or do we realize that life is not always about "being happy", and if you marry someone, barring extreme circumstances, what we feel is 100% normal. Life is not all about fun, vacations, sex, and bliss.

It seems much more so today, people choose the former options, and not the latter.

And it's not just about "why did we get involved with BPD's"

Hindsight is always 20/20. These people did not carry a sign. Many of us never even heard of it before. And no matter who you end up with, everyone else can always say "oh, how didn't you see that coming".

And that is also my point... Who do we avoid? Even with balanced people, The questions come after a few years when the love phase wears off, and then you really have to work on resisting temptation and adjusting to regular life.


It's a bit like "Today, to have a lasting marriage I have to fight all of these forces... Divorce laws that provide an incentive to divorce. How easy it is to cheat. Constantly working on myself and my flaws. finding a partner that does the same" etc

Where as in the past none of these things even existed, and I can't say people are "happier" today either.  As according to skip 30% of us are depressed.









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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2018, 11:27:06 AM »

Times certainly have changed, a few stories I had from growing up regarding adultery that were relayed to me already in childhood. (my grandparents both met in Germany and married within the forces.

One guy who decided to sleep with the wife of a Gurkha has his arm chopped off with a machete. The level of introspection that went into that was what he told my grandmother "when man touches your wife, must chop".  (exact words and intonation repeated here)

Pretty succinct, no requirements for therapy or anger management. An almost 100% solution to avoid a repeatance.

another version where the cheating wife was placed on top of a cooker stove.

I dont condone this level of violence or to say that "back in the day" it was better. What I will say is the contrast to back then and now on how there is literally no societal form of disgrace in adultery or cheating it is moving towards becoming not normalised but 'not a big deal' and casually and cooly coming as no surprise when mentioned.

I was brought up to believe that to make a marriage vow was more than just performing some ritual, or getting some good snaps for facebook.

It is a cultural issue, but as Skip said, if it is a big enough deal the solution is to move to either a country or a community which is more in line with traditional values that match the "bygone era".

As far as I went, I beat the guy up, which is inline with sub-cultural expectations of where I live and the social circles I was in at the time, my behaviour was functional. Her cheating in her mind was also acceptable and as shawnlam famously once said "the same as going for a cup of coffee" for her there was no big deal about it and that is why she is unable to empathise with those she has hurt who she gave the heavy impression they were loved more than anything else in the world, etc etc.

My fault was of being too trusting and believing without taking the time to test. If I had to comfort an elderly person who had their life savings swindled by an elaborate con artist, I would not tell them they needed to go to therapy or begin heavy introspection to their faults, id apply common sense and reassure them they are not "stupid" they were trusting and were vulnerable.

To resonate what Skip said, it is about adapting but id go further and say that moving to a culture which is more serious about the values we hold also makes sense. For me, the cheating was not the deal breaker, it was to have been drawn in with heavy love bombing and then to face out of nowhere that behaviour, it was a proverbial blow to the back of the head, came as a shock and entirely unexepected for maximum dramatic effect. Wether or not she was back in my bed a week later, semi-remoarseful for her impulsivity - it was a sticky plaster on a very deep wound that rather than carry on through, common sense was to drop her there and then. Why I didnt is the extent of introspection required to ensure I dont repeat that mistake in future, thats important and I certainly wont trust again so easily, yet I wont go down a path that also seems popular in our modern times of rushing to a therapist, spiritualist or psychic hotline, assemble a team of postmodernist know-it-alls to persuade me that im not getting with the times and that my views are not modern anymore all the whilst conveniently pocketing a nice slice of my monthly paycheque as I defer to their assumed superior intellect. Its not just an identity crisis inherent in borderlines, it seems that the trends change on a monthly basis depending on what the celebs dictate for the sheeple to follow on their twitter.

Lets face it society tries to make out that it promotes individualism, yet how can we much of individuals if millions of people are doing exactly the same thing, watching the same banal stuff and emulating it? Racing to a therapist because all the celebs do it. No thanks.
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2018, 11:27:54 AM »

Excerpt
Or do we realize that life is not always about "being happy", and if you marry someone, barring extreme circumstances, what we feel is 100% normal. Life is not all about fun, vacations, sex, and bliss.

I have spent much of my life very unhappy... .in relationships. Had I not been so co-dependent then I would have left them.

However, I do agree with you that we have to try and work on our relationships. After I got married 6 years ago, my BPD ex came back into my life. This was a woman who I had a very strong sexual attraction towards and made me feel in a way that my wife never did. Had my ex wanted me to commit to her (fat chance since she has been married for 30 years) I would have done. And that would have been the worst decision of my life.

I am still married and trying to work on my r/s with my wife. There are many good things about the r/s but one of the problems is that it lacks excitement. It's because we are both preoccupied with our own lives. Should I leave? Probably. We don't have a sex life and sleep in separate rooms. However, I feel a bit like you, that nobody tries hard enough to make marriages work and she wants to be with me and loves me. We will in all likelihood jog along together with no passion but a stoic commitment to each other because I don't want to leave because I no longer believe in this wild passionate state of being in love (limerence) but I do believe in working at a r/s and staying together like my parents did. I am not particularly happy, but I am not unhappy either. Yet, something in the back of my mind niggles and says shouldn't I be happier? I think that is precisely what you are talking about isn't it? There is no easy solution to my situation, but I would not run off with somebody i met on the internet because I have learnt from the pain with my ex. Plus I know I am also not reliable and my own emotions are not to be trusted. In many ways, my drama free, slightly boring r/s is probably saving me from my own worst excesses and poor judgement.
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2018, 12:01:33 PM »


As far as I went, I beat the guy up, which is inline with sub-cultural expectations of where I live and the social circles I was in at the time, my behaviour was functional. Her cheating in her mind was also acceptable and as shawnlam famously once said "the same as going for a cup of coffee" for her there was no big deal about it and that is why she is unable to empathise with those she has hurt who she gave the heavy impression they were loved more than anything else in the world, etc etc.

My fault was of being too trusting and believing without taking the time to test. If I had to comfort an elderly person who had their life savings swindled by an elaborate con artist, I would not tell them they needed to go to therapy or begin heavy introspection to their faults, id apply common sense and reassure them they are not "stupid" they were trusting and were vulnerable.

To resonate what Skip said, it is about adapting but id go further and say that moving to a culture which is more serious about the values we hold also makes sense. For me, the cheating was not the deal breaker, it was to have been drawn in with heavy love bombing and then to face out of nowhere that behaviour, it was a proverbial blow to the back of the head, came as a shock and entirely unexepected for maximum dramatic effect.

Pretty much exactly what I am trying to say...

I would think most of us here did not meet a drug addicted prostitute who opened up about herself on date one, and we set out to change her as that is all we can get in a mate.

We met someone who presented themselves to be someone else, who love bombed us, who definitely seemed to be genuine, who seemed to be honest, then had no problem serial cheating as if they are shaking hands or having a cup of coffee...

Then it is presented that WE have all these issues for being trusting and not testing enough.

In one post relationship conversation with my ex, I lamented "I am surprised we even made it that long". And she said , (perhaps BS) "it's because you are the strongest person I ever met"

And in a way it is true. I not only handled my life, work, and family, I took on all of her problems. (Which I should not have)... But perhaps many of us nons are stronger and "better" than others  as we end up with BPD's, and our big flaw is not being "co dependent", or various other issues, but it is that we have such a strong character that we CAN handle more than others... Similar to the con artist , the BPD is the bad/flawed person, not the trusting and stable non.

And unrelated... .

But is anyone else scared of future "marriage" in this society?

In Scandinavian nations the default notion is "joint" custody, and a small amount of child support is awarded for children basic needs...

It's not some perverse notion of awarding one parent the "primary", and transferring the income of one parent to the other, including pension, retirement, alimony etc.  "Ok you make 10k a month, so your wife who monkey branched and cheated gets $3500 to raise your son with her new man"







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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2018, 12:28:28 PM »

Interesting Cromwell,

Excerpt
Lets face it society tries to make out that it promotes individualism, yet how can we much of individuals if millions of people are doing exactly the same thing, watching the same banal stuff and emulating it? Racing to a therapist because all the celebs do it. No thanks.

What is promoted most highly in all Hollywood films? The family. Most films' plots are about keeping the family together. It is always regarded as the worst possible thing that can happen when an 'intruder' comes in and breaks up the family. In more recent films such as The War Of The Worlds the broken family was catered to but the real parents still retained the most important place in the structure.

I think the family is a big part of the individualistic world that America promotes. We are brought up to believe there is one true love for us all out there and when we meet them our lives will fall into place and we will live happily ever after. It is nothing more than a fairy story but we all buy into it time and again because the unbearable lightness of being is terrible and without a significant other to give our lives meaning, what the hell are we all here for? Relationships are pursued to stave off existential angst.
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2018, 12:36:04 PM »

Interesting Cromwell,

What is promoted most highly in all Hollywood films? The family.

It's funny how people see things differently... I would have said the overall media theme is "men are dumb", alternative lifestyles, fantasy, cartoons,war, divorce, etc. I can't think of one movie with a strong and capable man leading his traditional family.

Who is probably the most famous woman in America? And role model for young women? A woman famous for being urinated on in a sex tape who has a big bottom. Kim Kardashian.
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2018, 12:50:26 PM »

And unrelated... .

But is anyone else scared of future "marriage" in this society?

Asides from tax advantages I see no purpose for it in the traditional sense, I deemed marriage beyond the romantic spiritual commitment as being more of a social based commitment to raise children in security, the stigma attached of being a divorce-e or adultery being at that time an effective way to dissuade break up. Problem is it was deemed too effective, resulting in woman feeling like chattel and trapped legally to break away from abusive and domineering husbands. Yet, the pendulum has swung fantatically into the other corner, no middle ground, its now not worth the paper printed on and statistically most are destined to failure. The same as bankruptcy was a social stigma, we now have "accelerated bankruptcy" with little penalty attached, it is also far easier and quicker to effect a divorce than it once was. During my grandparents time, adultery was the only valid legal reason for divorce, to enter into a marriage on that basis was to enter into a serious commitment. Those who try to also normalise that kids from 'broken' homes (probably not the politically correct term either), is alright, because there is now such a high percentage in society, its normal and not a big deal.

Theres already people having sex with human like dolls, wait until the day comes that a marriage is broken because the wife cheated with an android or via versa - give it 5 or 10 years.

Im not 'afraid' of marriage as such Husband123 but theres going to be a range of contingency management, prenuptials and insurances. Its important what you said many times, take sufficient time to know the partner, the ones that fail are a result of lack of this. There is this societal pressure to have everything, instantly, with little restraint on impulsivity. That is down to a lack of deterrent or punishment. Here in the UK, 40% is deduced from after-tax income regardless of anything else for child maintenance. In contrast to Scandanavian countries we have a budget deficit in the trillions diametric to theirs in credit, all I can suggest is they can afford to socialise shoulder the outcome of individuals breeding choices better than we can.
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2018, 01:09:50 PM »

Excerpt
It's funny how people see things differently... I would have said the overall media theme is "men are dumb", alternative lifestyles, fantasy, cartoons,war, divorce, etc. I can't think of one movie with a strong and capable man leading his traditional family.

The landscape in Hollywood is changing there is no doubt, but to be honest it is about time. Women had to put up with being painted as dumb ever since movies began. I'd say the current time is simply redressing the balance.

However, I don't think all men are portrayed as dumb in current movies, it's just simply there are more movies about strong females. Interestingly, I've often thought that my ex presented as a damsel-in-distress in order to attract more male attention. Perhaps it is learned behaviour from her childhood when she would be on display for her father's friends. There must be nothing worse than that kind of betrayal from somebody who is supposed to protect you.
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« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2018, 01:27:07 PM »

some of my problems could have been avoided by how i dated, sure.

mind you, i wasnt seduced by hot sex or looks. i didnt meet my ex on a dating site.

i had come from a series of really immature relationships and heartbreak. as much as i thought i knew about what makes a healthy relationship, or really even my understanding of the nature and course of relationships, i was seriously far off, but i did a little better each time.

she was my first real adult relationship at twenty one. it stands to reason that we were both pretty immature, though i know and knew twenty one year olds that werent getting into the messes that i was or responding to and coping with heartbreak the way i was.  

to detail how my immaturity played out would be longer than this thread can contain. highlights include taking a hammer to some cds, shouting and pounding on her door when she locked me out of her apartment and standing in front of her car threatening to "beat the _____ out of it", using threats of a breakup (literally hundreds of times) to get my way, calling her names (screaming) like "psycho" and "crazy" and "I HATE BEING YOUR BOYFRIEND", lying, going outside the relationship, pulling away and neglecting the relationship instead of having the fortitude to end it, and probably hundreds of ways that i treated her or myself that did not align with my values.

who here thinks thats the stuff of an emotionally mature guy who had nothing to learn.

as far as dating goes, the girl i saw after that was a serious piece of work, and the one after that was questionable... .i over pursued with both. over pursuing, by the way, not a good relationship skill.

30% of us are depressed.

70-80% of members at bpdfamily are depressed. its 30% of the general population that has some form of mental illness, be it anxiety/depression or another mood disorder, or a full blown personality disorder (5-10% of the population).

i think the point behind that is that its not about other people or external forces or cultural norms. its about who we are, where we are going, and whether or not we have the skills and tools to navigate a difficult and challenging world; whether we thrive or we get our butts kicked. the person i am today would never have gotten into the mess(es) that i did and perpetually struggled. the person i am today has a lot more confidence, street smarts, more peace of mind, and a better, more sound internal compass.

how often do we read on this board the notion that people with personality disordered traits refuse or are incapable of introspection, growth, self improvement, and blame others and outside forces?

well?
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« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2018, 02:23:39 PM »

Excerpt
how often do we read on this board the notion that people with personality disordered traits refuse or are incapable of introspection, growth, self improvement, and blame others and outside forces?

once removed - this is the key to it all for me. When we are in pain we cannot hear another person's point of view. When we reside in our fantasy of what our life should be, rather than what it actually is, the less capable we are of taking on board reality.

When I came onto these boards, I knew intellectually all of the above. I have been in a 12 step programme for 20 years. There is a saying, 'When you point the finger at somebody there are three fingers pointing back at you.' The problem for me has been my own emotional dysregulation. That is what I never knew about and what always made me behave in the childish way you describe above. There are so many things I could have done differently with my ex which would have saved me an awful lot of stress and probably not triggered her anxiety as regularly and comprehensively as I did. Pouring out my heart in long-winded and blaming diatribes at her in the hope that she would tune into my core values and stop doing what she was doing, springs to mind. This was a futile exercise. For a start I was compromising my own core values because I was cheating on my wife. When you inhabit the world of moral muckiness, then you get moral muckiness back. I expected her to be reliable, loving and honest towards me and yet neither of us were behaving that way towards our partners.

I have more sympathy for my younger self when I encountered my ex the first time around. I was much younger and trying to get off alcohol. I encountered this woman who seemed to be the answer to all of my prayers and dreams and would love me forever like I was prepared to love her. It was an exercise in immaturity and fantasy on my part to ignore the evidence of my own eyes and ears. She lied to me about being single and when she finally told me, had I been a more fully rounded individual, I would have gotten out of there never to return. I didn't. I invited the drama into my life because I thought she was a sexual Goddess and I couldn't resist her. The second time round 8 years later it was the same thing. I couldn't resist her physically. But I was older, apparently wiser and I should have known better. I was married myself and my moral compass was skewed. I told myself my ex was the true love of my life and if she wanted me finally, after all these years, I would correct the mistake I made by getting married and we could be together after all. That was an act of insanity. My refusal to look at the evidence before my eyes and the history of our fraught r/s was discarded in favour of living in my fantasy world where I could have the woman of my dreams. The trouble has always been that being anywhere near my ex has been almost painful, I am so attracted to her. If that happened again and I perceived the woman was crazy or a liar, I would now run a mile. A very painful lesson learnt and one that I may never get the opportunity to put into practise again. Nevertheless, I am wiser for the experience.
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« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2018, 03:37:20 PM »

And of course, I grew up in a home with one phone. If you talk, everyone is sitting around listening, ... There was no privacy, secrecy, etc.

Did you know that the divorce rate was doubled in your fathers generation from his fathers? Some people in his generation hearkened back to the good old days of the 20's and 30's", just as you are doing.

134 years ago, Friedrich Nietzsche declared “God is Dead". After the Enlightenment, the idea of a universe that was governed by physical laws and not by divine providence was now reality. He spoke of a huge cultural change.

In 58 AD, the Bible speaks about the depravity and evil in the book of Roman's and of lost men doing bad things in the name of God. This was considered to be an explosion of human depravity.

My point is that the answer to thriving in today's world is not to wring our hands about change... .that is the fodder of victimization and helplessness and bitterness.

We actually live in a much easier world today. The world wars claimed the lives of 6% of the worlds population. In the 14th Century, plague claimed the lives of 60% of the population of Europe.

Now, honestly, how much do you think he delved into introspection? "Working on himself"... .

You have been here for 1.5 years and are deeply locked on the idea that self-awareness is about blame (it is not) and self-awareness is a waste of time. You feel that you were powerless to see, early on, that your wife had deep issues. You feel that the lure of sex and money and idealization are insurmountable forces.

You and I may have been naive to fall into the relationships we did. That was yesterdays issue. Today's issue is to ask ourselves the question - "If I know more bout human nature, would I have made better decisions in my life" - I think the answer is yes. And a huge part of understanding human nature is to understand ourselves.

But I have an even more fundamental question for you. Not wanting to learn more about human nature and become more self-aware is your right. You can make that choice. My question is, why do you want to encourage others to make this same choice?

Even if we become much closer to perfect, and pick a much better mate, is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?  Or is that having an expectation that it too high, because people need to be happy 24/7, privacy, anonymity, and cheating is soo easy, and yes, divorce, and cheating is normalized.

Much closer to perfect... .

Interesting choice of words. Is this your image of yourself?

Is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?

Again, interesting choice of words. Is this the primary measure of success?

One thought. In the 60's, sociologists saw the "family" as a functional necessity - survival. A bread winner, a child rearer, a nest for the young.  

Today's socialist's suggest that relationships, because things are so good in society, have evolved to be more about a partner that helps us with self actualization - achieve our goals.
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« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2018, 04:09:38 PM »

I dont think my future choice of long term commited relationship is even up for debate - I cant - rather than wont - be able to go through that again; a partner that requires being rescued, my carrying that burden throughout, the guilt of then discarding because i reach my limitations, realise it is a hopeless cause and my quality of life and wellbeing is wrecked too far.

Once was enough, and the crucial thing that sustained all this was emotional involvement happening at a pace that outstripped the pace of actually getting to know her properly - that meant - getting to the stage where I am now nearly 4 years from the day we first met. This is the point in time of realistically being of the ability to accept wether or not it would be love, not via the first few months of love bombardment however much it 'felt' iconicly romantic or wishful thinking. Of course if I had got anywhere near to a sufficient enough time to experience what I went through, I wouldnt have enmeshed myself into a situation I couldnt walk out of.

It seems like I was victim of a strategy of - bombard him full on - overwhelm his senses as quick as possible, get him emotionally involved and secured. Thereafter, can act out and show true colours which he would otherwise in the space of sufficient time have discovered and likely discarded easily due to not being hooked in. When my ex cheated on me 3 months in, she had she thought someone else available should I walk away, she hedged her bets. To her surprise or not, I stayed with her and it was that juncture that I parlayed away all sense of self esteem. from there on i became a possession to be toyed with and I dont know where 3 years of my life went from that point on.

i guess I should feel angry rather than guilty, I should feel really angry with myself for having that level of feelings for someone who didnt care from the outset about anyones wellbeing or needs fulfillment but her own. It shouldnt be more complex evaluation then that, yet part of my intuition tells me it is - and thats the part that is hard to shake off. External issues cant change this away, sure I could blame the government why it doesnt institutionalise those with such severe mental illnesses, I wouldnt have encountered her if it wasnt for their choice to adopt a "care in the community" policy - yet that doesnt change the fact I did meet her, did get emotionally invested and now have to pick up the pieces of it as best I can.
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« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2018, 04:40:52 PM »


But I have an even more fundamental question for you. Not wanting to learn more about human nature and become more self-aware is your right. You can make that choice. My question is, why do you want to encourage others to make this same choice?

Much closer to perfect... .

Interesting choice of words. Is this your image of yourself?

Is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?

Again, interesting choice of words. Is this the primary measure of success?

One thought. In the 60's, sociologists saw the "family" as a functional necessity - survival. A bread winner, a child rearer, a nest for the young.  

Today's socialist's suggest that relationships, because things are so good in society, have evolved to be more about a partner that helps us with self actualization - achieve our goals.


Why do I encourage others?

A.  I think I learn by putting forth my view, and then over time if I come across another view that proves me wrong, and I can make logical sense of, I learn and take something away from it.

B. I think when people are enmeshed in a BPD relationship, they might come to a site like this and read a different section. Such as "improving a BPD relationship"

Once there, you are not thinking of running... The tone is not that you need to fix yourself. You are getting advice on how to make this relationship work. As if it is possible.  In a way that may add to the overall confusion... I am being gaslighted at home, and while asking for advice I learn I am doing and saying the wrong things to make it work.  So on 2 fronts, I am wrong. You are not being told "GTFO and away from that crazy woman. There is no hope. "

So when I briefly saw a therapist after to make sense of all this, it was like a weight was lifted when she pointed out "You are a compassionate , trusting, faithful and loving man. You are not the one with the illness... SHE IS. You cannot make her happy. You were taken in by a con and a trixter."


As I stated before, everyone on earth has some childhood issue. Is it worth the time to try and somehow fix every single possible issue and drive yourself insane in order to have a relationship? Ok, we picked wrong, but now learned what red flags are, lets move on and not make the same mistake again.

50 yr marriage

Yes, I do measure that as success.  Why else are we taking those vows?  if we don't really mean forever anymore, maybe we should change what we say.
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« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2018, 06:06:52 PM »

there is an old saying, bend the tree when it is young.

Ive left it a bit late into my mid-30s for "self-development" of a significant, structural fixing nature. If "self" development involves being persuaded to adopt a new persona more in line with someone elses perception of what the correct, appropiate or functional form I need to adapt to in order to put up with society. The rate of how it changes would involve forever needing a therapist because at the moment the accepted dogma of bringing up kids is diametric to how i was brought up, and would be clearly labelled as having suffered an 'abusive' childhood - back then it was just the norm.

what will next years dogma involve - being persuaded it is child neglect not to be the one to choose what colour wallpaper for the room but allow the child the right to do so - therefore avoiding the likelihood they will suffer distress and require future counselling.

Ive brought up my step son and had to go through the ridiculousness of various encounters; the head of his school who complained that he had "assaulted" the "victim" who had began to bully him to the extent he couldnt sleep at night. The end result, my step son was never bullied again, problem solved, and the victim might even have thought twice to do it to someone else in the future.

When I met my first girlfriend via the internet, in the mid 90s, my approach then was labelled as 'strange', geeky. It was a great relationship, it was trend setting. Now everyone does it.

I came to these boards to revert back to my self, not to be persuaded that I lived in some cocoon that needs to burst into a butterfly. Im happy and content with who I am, who I was, I encountered heartbreak to a level that brought about deep emotional pain, that pain has been dissipated by compassion and finding others who can relate. Do I want to go beyond that and start tweaking, getting bogged down into analysis paralysis a quest at finding some fault that may or not may exist, if it doesnt to be persuaded that it does, or that it must be there otherwise this wouldnt have even happened in the first place? Im not convinced although the nature of this relationship revealed aspects of my character that others had not - perhaps given me the experience not to be so trusting in future, that there are disturbed people out there to guard against.

Is it not simple enough to say I made an error in judgement, a mistake, have learned from it and will avoid it happening again? is that not sufficient enough?

So far on these boards ive had it implied that im a narcissist, even psychopath. If I was either of these things I would already have all the skills that wouldnt even have led me to this board. The way I see 'external forces' the mass media and other elements shaping society, it has became a breeding ground for narcissim and my ex with BPD seems sufficiently enabled to carry on what she is doing without much if any recourse for her actions.

It is travesty that the people I can relate to most in life are coincidentally the ones that seem always to be the most hurt. Is the cure for that that they adapt and become more like those who have hurt them in the first place, the first stage for that to happen is to neutralise words such as "abuse" discourage "anger" and promote a mentality that the abuser is also a victim.

Im not convinced and being labelled with a personality disorder of my own and an implied reluctance to change as a result, so be it, its too late to change 3 decades of values and personality, however 'dysfunctional' to this modern era some might deem fit to criticise.

On my 3rd visit to my therapist I was told "you would make a great father" - quite how she managed to get to that in sub-2hours of knowing me im not sure. i dont undervalue the need for therapists, trauma counsellors, but this generational era of calling for help for every nuance of lifes tribulations didnt happen in the past - why? closer knit families where more interaction between family members took place. More personal responsibility given at earlier ages, parents were role models, now replaced by pop culture figures. I wouldnt be here if I would have stuck firmly to the values already ingrained or followed my parents teachings. I dropped the ball, i tried to adapt, become more tolerant and new-era, thats the reason im here today. My parents would have characterised my ex as a mentally insane "rat". That might not be my opinion, but if I woud have followed their succinct evaluation I woud have spared myself 4 years of problems. Just like my step son avoided the potential of years of bullying at school by one pop into the snot locker of his tormentor.
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« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2018, 08:32:41 PM »


I wouldnt be here if I would have stuck firmly to the values already ingrained or followed my parents teachings. I dropped the ball, i tried to adapt, become more tolerant and new-era, thats the reason im here today. My parents would have characterised my ex as a mentally insane "rat". That might not be my opinion, but if I woud have followed their succinct evaluation I woud have spared myself 4 years of problems. Just like my step son avoided the potential of years of bullying at school by one pop into the snot locker of his tormentor.

Skip asked why I would deter people from trying to better themselves.

I think sometimes  total bluntness works better than getting wrapped up into some mental vortex of trying to figure out how disordered people think. And how to appease them.

As Cromwell alluded to, if I had listened to the values I grew up with, and just asked my father for advice, he would have just said something like "Are you crazy? You slept with her within 2 hours? And she yells at you? Get rid of that trashy slut". Thats it... Solved... Period... Many years saved.

For me, that would have put things into perspective. And also saved me lots of time, pain, and energy...   I sometimes look at him like he is the old school, outdated person who doesn't know all the fancy terms, psychological jargon, etc. But what he did in life worked. 

But in current society, it is sort of "normal" for women to give their body to total strangers. Risking their eggs, pregnancy, disease etc. In that way, now, men and women are the same... But in the eyes of the law, courts, etc, women are of course still the protected sex.
It would make me a sexist to assume women who sleep with total strangers are somehow , de facto, disordered in one way or another. I lost my way.

So, when you encounter a BPD you may come to a site like this.  You are told how to validate her. How to fix the relationship. How to get her back. How to learn a new language. How to love. Mentally, it makes you think "Well this seems to be the route to go... I am doing something wrong. It is me". You spend more time trying to fix the relationship...

Then when it inevitably fails, because a BPD will not change, you enter the different section of the boards.  And it is more or less like, in plain English "ude, what the heck is wrong with you for being with this person. Fix yourself. You have issues ". 

And back to what Skip asked... .

I think it might be better for nons who got mixed up with a BPD to get back on the correct road by realizing they are not the problem. It was the disordered, manipulative, cheating liar they fell for. As opposed to walking around day to day thinking "How can I improve my co dependence/being to nice/not being nice enough/childhood issues/narcissism/ and apply this to my next relationship," wherein she will of course have her own set of issues, as we all do.

I also find it is not helpful to mention BPD, and include all types together.  Saying some are "high functioning", "low functioning", "male BPD" etc. Many of the people who might be giving advice date a hard working stable guy with mood swings, and conclude that is "male BPD", and it is all the same. Sometimes it seems a bit too PC to really give people good advice.












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« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2018, 09:52:26 PM »

Is this a fair summary of your thoughts:

Essentially your primary purpose here is to critique the site, the professionals behind the healing platforms, the seniors here, who don't get it like you do - and set them all straight. 

Furthermore, you want to point out the the real issue is a societal one, largely with women, and good guys like yourself get caught it the trap because sex is irresistible. The world would be a better place if women of 2018 weren't so immoral.

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« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2018, 01:19:43 AM »

Husband321,

You sound angry and I totally get why. However, you encountered a woman who was disordered, that does not mean all women are sluts and society condones that behaviour. Should I look at every r/s I’ve ever had through the prism of my ex’s behaviour, or do I conclude  that she has certain traits that I am trying to understand and by doing so improve my own emotional intelligence?

Some people on these boards are not able to walk away from the pwBPD in their lives. There are people who are married with children, some who are parents and others who may have traits themselves and need to first become aware of the traits and then figure out how to deal with them while in a r/s with a disordered partner. There are complexities, it’s not a one size fits all situation. I don’t think for me behaving like John Wayne would allow me to exist in 2018 with any degree of success. While that kind of black and white, no nonsense behaviour may protect you from involvement with a disordered woman I would suggest those attitudes may preclude you from any kind of r/s at all in this day and age. Worst of all, that kind of finger pointing blame of the world and all the women in it approach effectively prevents you from ever examining yourself and what attracts you to a pwBPD. I’ve found the revelations about my own character the most enlightening of all. To carry the Hollywood analogy further, we all see ourselves as the hero in our own private movies of our lives but all heroes have a moral need and something lacking in their psychological make up that prevents them from fulfilling their desires. Just a thought.
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« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2018, 08:23:40 AM »

Skip asked why I would deter people from trying to better themselves.

I think sometimes  total bluntness works better than getting wrapped up into some mental vortex of trying to figure out how disordered people think. And how to appease them.

Depends on our definition of 'bettering'.

I fully respect and value your opinion, and all id say is that part of being a confident self-assured person is to hold beliefs that cant easily be shaken.

Sure im not narrow minded, open to learning and persuasion. Ive picked up helpful advice, knowledge and information here - what I havent as of yet been persuaded and in fairness not many posts have amounted to challenging the thought that im structurally deficient of character or personality in some way that led me into this mess - as opposed to having made a mistake - due to the circumstances at the time.

I think its only to be expected that others havent went through the same thing and there is a danger there of transferring over their experience too much.

Even when it comes to cultural differences, im not aware most of the time where the person is that im trying to advise on a course of action, not aware of their religious beliefs, age, social class, financial sources, disabilities that might influence my advice. So for someone to act as if they seemingly know me enough to diagnose a deficiency that I need to work on - out of thin air - or just by default that I came to a support group - i put that down as saying more about them then it does me.

Anyway, we all have our own opinions and do our best to find the tools that work for ourselves whatever the goal is, getting better now or future relationships, being in a relatioship with BPD might be the common thread but beyond that, our scenarios are very much unique as much as ourselves. No Contact seems so simplistic as to be obvious, it was a tool I had to learn here and it has worked - and thats all I care about. Some people it doesnt, they need to maintain some contact at a distance - it helps them - again different people, lives and experiences. There is no panacea tool of one size fits all approach, only suggestions to consider take on board.
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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2018, 08:47:19 AM »

Cromwell,

I take your point but I would like to ask you a sincere question. Assuming  we are all coming on here for help and support, is not part of that support being encouraged to look at our own part in our respective situations?

The way I see it we can’t control our significant others’ behaviour so the only thing we can do is adjust our own behaviour accordingly to lessen the blow of the disorder we have been exposed to. In my case understand how my own emotional life was making things worse. That isn’t to say we are in any way to blame but rather we need the tools on here to make our lives a little more bearable. I suppose for me part of that tool kit is self examination to explore where I might unwittingly be exacerbating the problem. Aren’t we all learning emotional intelligence on here?

RF
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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2018, 09:02:38 AM »

Is this a fair summary of your thoughts:

Essentially your primary purpose here is to critique the site, the professionals behind the healing platforms, the seniors here, who don't get it like you do - and set them all straight.  

Furthermore, you want to point out the the real issue is a societal one, largely with women, and good guys like yourself get caught it the trap because sex is irresistible. The world would be a better place if women of 2018 weren't so immoral.



I would say I made a mistake , and that everyone has different experiences.  A different life.

I spent a lot of time "bettering myself".  Mainly , even before my son was born, how to be a good parent and everything that entails. And there is a lot involved with child psychology. I am very proud that I never had to even raise my voice yet at my seven yr old, and he is developing in a very happy way.

Spend a lot of time trying to be healthy.  Running a business.  Taking care of a home inside and out. Employees. .  Reading various books etc. Those  things all better myself.

The vulnerability I had, at the time, was that I had a lot on my plate as a single 50/50 dad.  So when I met this sexy woman who was a personal trainer, who claimed constantly she just wants a "simple" life, who was helping me constantly around the house, and who then was amazing with my son,and intelligent,  I was hooked.  

So I can see why I became hooked. if she was "real", I don't think I would have had any underlying issues that would prevent me from a long term relationship.

There is a lot about BPD on the net.  And sometimes the old caveman ideas seem to make you feel better, and heal quicker.  Someone might say "yeah man.  Those BPD girls are amazing in bed.  But they can't stop lying and manipulating. Just be glad she is gone".  As opposed to blaming myself , wondering why I trusted her, delving into my childhood, thinking I am too nice, or perhaps don't love enough etc.  Even being told to fee sorry for her.

Sometimes overanalyzing IS what keeps us with a BPD.  And then blaming ourselves also keeps us entrapped in a way.  





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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2018, 10:53:14 AM »

I have read many books on the so called bad men to avoid for relationships, and the books were not all that helpful in the long run. These books tend to focus on demonizing men, and making the women victims. What has helped me is to take a look at myself and how I am more vulnerable at certain times to making less healthy choices. As I have become more self aware and comfortable in my own my skin, I find myself attracting better people into my life, and the not so nice people just don't want to be around me because I am not such an easy target. Knowing who I am really helps me to see through others' facades. 
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« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2018, 11:41:52 AM »

Cromwell,

I take your point but I would like to ask you a sincere question. Assuming  we are all coming on here for help and support, is not part of that support being encouraged to look at our own part in our respective situations?

The way I see it we can’t control our significant others’ behaviour so the only thing we can do is adjust our own behaviour accordingly to lessen the blow of the disorder we have been exposed to. In my case understand how my own emotional life was making things worse. That isn’t to say we are in any way to blame but rather we need the tools on here to make our lives a little more bearable. I suppose for me part of that tool kit is self examination to explore where I might unwittingly be exacerbating the problem. Aren’t we all learning emotional intelligence on here?

RF

Hi RF

Im in agreement here, I stayed around hoping she would change herself, that her behaviours were transitory - this was rooted in a lack of knowledge of the condition she had as well as the negative behaviour not being a continual theme but appearing - observed only through time as - cyclical.

If it had been a daily nightmare of crazy behaviour it would have been simple for me to disconnect, emotionally and practically, it wasnt so and it was only through experiencing it and trying to endure it over time that it eventually got to the point where I realised there is a pattern going on that seems destined to repeat itself, regardless of whatever I try to do.
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« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2018, 08:50:56 AM »



We don't have to go back to the 1950's lifestyle to have values. We can have values and still meet people on Match.com or in the grocery.


Well, my premise was that we could avoid BPD women by simply getting to know a partner BEFORE having sex.  Would you agree?  Sure, some might slip through the cracks , but I do believe , by all accounts, a true BPD woman is very impulsive sexually.  I know in my case , it never would have even made it 3 consecutive non sexual dates as she NEEDS that instant bond, and would have found it elsewhere.

Men used to have to marry to have sex.  Then they would have premarital sex after dating.  Then perhaps even quicker sex, but without technology chances are they were sleeping with people they atleast knew, or someone they know, knew.

The scarier part in today's world is that if you meet a girl online, a total stranger, and have sex quickly, it is very likely she does that all the time. No matter what she says. So we can learn tools to validate them, prevent fights etc.  But preventing a BPD woman from getting that rush of excitement with total strangers  is nearly impossible.

So I do believe , if many of us guys just avoided the early sex/ lovebombing trap, we wouldn't be here.  Not all. But probably most.

And even if you meet a non disordered girl, who has sex quickly, then she will be attached.  It means something to her.  So similar to a BPD they will be all over you.  Texting you in the morning.  Wondering where you are.  Wondering if you are exclusive etc.  Talking about the future etc.  Are those red flags?  Or is that normal?
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« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2018, 10:08:48 AM »

Excerpt
Then it is presented that WE have all these issues for being trusting and not testing enough.

Who exactly is presenting this?  That is not a message I ever received from my therapist nor from this board.  You are generalizing based on your own personal experience.

Excerpt
Is it worth the time to try and somehow fix every single possible issue and drive yourself insane in order to have a relationship?

First, who is being driven insane?  Are you being driven insane and then projecting that onto the rest of us?  Second, who has implied that you must “fix every single possible issue?”  I don’t know that can be done.  If the question is really, “Is it worth the time to learn about myself so that I can have healthier relationships in the future?”  Then yes, a resounding yes, it is worth my time.  Especially considering that by relationships, I mean all of them.  Relationships with my coworkers, my friends, my child, and my family.  I value them all, and they are worth it.

Excerpt
Yes, I do measure that as success.  Why else are we taking those vows?  if we don't really mean forever anymore, maybe we should change what we say.

Do you mean the royal “we?”  You keep speaking in absolutes, using words like “always” and “every” and “we” as if there are no gray areas and your experience is universal.  If you’ve discovered your truth, that’s wonderful.  What do you really wish to achieve now by evangelizing that truth as if it is a universal one?  Some of us didn’t take any vows at all and have no intention of ever doing so.  It was your choice to marry and you chose the vows you stated.

Excerpt
"Are you crazy? You slept with her within 2 hours? And she yells at you? Get rid of that trashy slut".

Is this to say that she’s a trashy slut because she yells at you?  Or is she a trashy slut because she slept with you within 2 hours?  Because you were there, too.  If she’s a trashy slut, then so are you, dude.
 
Excerpt
I think it might be better for nons who got mixed up with a BPD to get back on the correct road by realizing they are not the problem. It was the disordered, manipulative, cheating liar they fell for.

You imply mutual exclusivity where none exists.  A non can be part of the problem while at the same time acknowledging that she fell for a disordered, manipulative, cheating liar.  Knowing that my ex was all of those things does not preclude me from learning something about myself.

Excerpt
And even if you meet a non disordered girl, who has sex quickly, then she will be attached.

Really?  How many non-disordered girls did you poll to come up with that generalization? 
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« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2018, 10:42:42 AM »



And even if you meet a non disordered girl, who has sex quickly, then she will be attached.  It means something to her.  So similar to a BPD they will be all over you.  Texting you in the morning.  Wondering where you are.  Wondering if you are exclusive etc.  Talking about the future etc.  Are those red flags?  Or is that normal?

I read a bit into narcissim, but just cursory search not sure of the academic validity, I think likely written by NPD 'survivors'. What was interesting was that it described this constant checking on your where-abouts as a feature of it. Id see this as a red flag, I couldnt care less what label to attach to it, but there certainly is something wrong with that heightened level of "checking" up, i find it in hindsight very controlling and related to a need to control rather than what I had seen it as initially - a highly interested friend, thereafter "missing me" constantly due to loving me. I see it in a different light now and would be cautious of it in future, it "felt" boundary push but I never conciously profiled it at as such, as with many things I gave the benefit of the doubt, trusted and saw it as part of being heavily loved by another.

Its not just the too quick sex id look out for either, I think my ex met me at a time where I gave her enough drama from my own life to keep her going. I was in a very different state to my normal personality, as I got better, came off drugs and alcohol, avoided dangerous and stress laden behaviour and moved towards offering both of us stability - this is when she not so much lost "interest" and started cheating to find it, its a case of this need for that drama, arguments - drug use anything at all that lifts the mood or detracts from that baseline of emptiness. I translated that at the time as a girlfriend who wanted a full-on exciting life, although again, it was an incorrect if understandable wrong conclusion to come to.

30% of population may have mental illness, it means 7 out of 10 do not. Of that 30% the bulk will be depression related. I still consider I met a statistical anomaly and learned from experience, its now a matter of just using that experience in the future coming across suspected types. Its not put me off marrying etc, but perhaps it saved me from what could have been an easy failed marriage. Thats the way I look at it Husband.
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« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2018, 10:56:19 AM »

Who exactly is presenting this?  That is not a message I ever received from my therapist nor from this board.  You are generalizing based on your own personal experience.

First, who is being driven insane?  Are you being driven insane and then projecting that onto the rest of us?


I would say by overanalyzing people drive themselves insane. And it is more or less a metaphor.

You are thinking red flags in your previous  relationship were a guy who doesn't get annual physicals and who is also shy. Those  were your "red flags". To me that is over analyzing.

I am saying a red flag, perhaps larger, could be a woman who never saw you before in her life wanting to pull her pants down and have you inside of her. No worry about disease. Pregnancy etc. in that vulnerable position she could also be easily harmed in any ways.  It's more or less a dangerous thing to do for a girl.
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JNChell
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Dissolved
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« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2018, 10:57:01 AM »

This has been a very interesting thread. I find all perspectives here have validity in their own individual right.

When I showed up here, I was a real mess. I’ve gotten emotionally charged on here at times and responded in ways that I shouldn’t have to other members. I feel that it’s important at times to remember why we’re here. It’s to support each other. We’re all at different levels in our pain and healing. Importance should be placed on that here. Mindfulness.

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“Adversity can destroy you, or become your best seller.”
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
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« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2018, 11:24:14 AM »

We are taking about learning and growing.

I would say as little as a couple years ago I would believe that having sex  quickly could be totally normal, and could lead to a great ltr.  

But I have found, that women who immediately are trying to drop their panties for any stranger have major issues.

A. Do they walk around that horny? Is that some type of issue?
B. Are they using sex to hook you to hang out more? Is that sort of BPD?
C did they truly bond with you that quickly? Is that BPD?
D are they addicted to quick hook ups and thrill seeking behavior?

I think most of us guys know it. None of us would tell our parents or close friends "yes mom. I met her on the internet and we had sex in 2 hours. She is a great girl". What do you think people who care about us would say?

I also think it almost always women calling out other women as sluts. It was my female friends who were like "you slept with her on the first date? Of course she is a slut"
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