Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
January 27, 2021, 02:14:35 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
  Help!   Groups   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
84
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Could all of these problems be avoided simply by how we date?  (Read 1885 times)
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« on: August 01, 2018, 12:47:08 PM »

I read a lot of these stories, and often times Non's seem to be hard on themselves.  Blaming themselves for being with a BPD and putting up with so much, for so long... And then even feeling bad about it afterward... .And longing for them at times...

In my view it is quite natural to fall for a BPD.

A. Meet a girl you find attractive.
B. Instant sex. or rather quickly.
C. Mirroring
D. Promises, mixed with all sorts of lies about their past, present,  and who they are. 

So naturally, it is easy to succumb and fall for someone who is an expert, consciously, or subconsciously, at acting like this.

It is also natural to try and help, or try and fix a relationship.

It is also natural to experience loss and deep sadness when they are gone... THEY are the ones with the mental disorder. Not us.

So, what if we dated how people dated long ago?

1.Has anyone here been fixed up with a BPD from a friend, or family member?

2. Has anyone here actually got to know a BPD on several dates BEFORE anything sexual happened?

3. Has anyone here asked questions about the past, family, and parental relationships of their BPD long before sex occurred?


If I had to bet, I would guess most people with a BPD met them on the internet. At a bar. Often times someone new in town. A complete stranger, and they proceeded to have sex with them quickly.  During which time our reptilian brain kicks in, and we look past everything to get sex, love, attention etc.

So I don't think it is any deep psychological problem us non's have, or anything that needs to be "fixed', other than how we choose to date and find a relationship.

I made the same mistake. I think if I would have just went on 5 to 10 non sexual dates, (probably 2), just having normal conversations, all of her stories would have made no sense, it would be easy to tell she is a liar, and all of this would have been avoided.
Logged
WindofChange
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart two months
Posts: 243



« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2018, 12:57:07 PM »

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'll start with confessing my sordid history. :/ I had met my exBPD fiancé previously but knew him only slightly. We ran into each other at a bar one night and ended up hooking up. Saw him again a few nights later and same thing. Fantastic sex, love bombing, early intimacy and saying he loved me. And so on, you know how that story goes... .

I'm actually reading a book recommended by my T called Boundaries in Dating, since I have boundary issues--who knew? It has a Christian focus, which may turn some off, but it makes great points about establishing and protecting your boundaries, your values, etc., in the dating relationship. I haven't gotten to where they talk about sex yet, but since it's a Christian book, I can imagine what that chapter will say, . Still, great points about getting to know a person before getting too involved, finding out what their values are, being sure that you don't compromise yourself in any way within the relationship. 
Logged

Be kind always.
WindofChange
Starfire
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 84


« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2018, 04:24:02 PM »

I dated my ex for 3 months before we were physically intimate.  I didn't keep count of the number of dates, but we saw each other at minimum twice a week, sometimes more and often for several hours at a time.  

The sex plays a part, definitely, but based on my own personal experience, not having sex early in the relationship didn't change the outcome.  The love bombing and idealization was there.  I still ignored or discounted or simply plain didn't see the red flags.  He was an exciting man. I didn't have reason to question any of the things he was telling me about his past.

That said, I do think things changed after sex.  That's when his jealousy and possessiveness really kicked into high gear.  It was as if that was the one thing left for him to accomplish to feel like he had me on the hook.  And I guess he did because it took 2 years for me to be free of him.
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2018, 04:47:35 PM »

If I had to bet, I would guess most people with a BPD met them on the internet. At a bar. Often times someone new in town. A complete stranger, and they proceeded to have sex with them quickly.  During which time our reptilian brain kicks in, and we look past everything to get sex, love, attention etc.

So I don't think it is any deep psychological problem us non's have, or anything that needs to be "fixed', other than how we choose to date and find a relationship.

I made the same mistake. I think if I would have just went on 5 to 10 non sexual dates, (probably 2), just having normal conversations, all of her stories would have made no sense, it would be easy to tell she is a liar, and all of this would have been avoided.


spot on. Hooked up online, never knew her at all via anyone else, sex within 2 hours of meeting.

But that is the type of relationships I was after at the time, no strings attached and I had no problems, there was also no 'apparent' problems with her, until a commited relatonship started. What I find valuable is that there was a complete lack of background information to go on, I recall early on saying to her before the relationship "I like that you always want to be with me, but find it hard to believe that you have no other friends". To which she told me thats just how it is. That should have been a possible red flag for me but I didnt take it on board - I was happy to be with this fun-loving, highly attractive, sex bundle of joy to the point of being blinkered to all else. I never suspected any reasons to lie but if I had done some cursory background checking, her backdrop was one of a litany of haphazard, chaotic relationships that I was just the new best source that came along.

I wasnt so much hooked in by the sex to the point of it being something I couldnt/didnt get elsewhere, what I got hooked on was a complete seductive package that really should have been screaming "too good to be true". I dont think I would do anything different in terms of dating in the future except to keep those boundaries firm and not let someone transgress them because id rather give them the benefit of the doubt each time. In short, she displayed what I look for in dating and relationships; great rapport. The problem is, it wasn't genuine rapport it was expertly staged and learning from the condition I understand how easy it was to fall for it. Again, healthy boundaries would have saved the day and will in future; I wouldnt hesitate to go No contact quickly in the future regardless of how much I like/lust for the girl.

In summary, there isnt really anything I would re-write the dating rule book, just that I was led off course and dropped my values and rules and paid the price for it that time around. The worst part is, she wasnt even very good at being manipulative, I just shrugged it off as 'she must just not want to feel embarrassed or be put in a difficult situation so is lying instead. I couldnt differentiate between lies designed to make someone appear more desirable than they are, than those that lead to serious issues downstream.
Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2018, 05:49:06 PM »

Conclusion:

      No one on this website has any issues to work through

Proof:

      We all had sex too early in the relationship, and our partner mirrored us.

Are these connected?

BTW. 29% of the population has a mental illness or addiction. 72% of our members have depression. A high percentage of members here have attachment issues. Many members tossed common sense to the wind when we were shown love.

Are you suggesting that all these things happened to us because we had sex too soon?
Logged

 
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2018, 08:27:02 AM »

Cromwell, yes exactly.

I had sex with her also within a few hours of meeting. And yes.  It wasn't the "sex", it was the entire seductive package. That's a good way to put it.  And also similarly, she was not good at being a manipulator at that point, more or less I was not wanting to dig and play detective as it was already so much fun.

Skip,

I didn't say NOBODY on the site has issues.  Or that every case is identical.

I would say :

A. The dynamic between a female non and a male BPD is much different than the dynamic between a male non and a female BPD. Too much to go into for the purpose of this thread, but it might be a good topic for another. So it's hard to comment on those.

B. It seems relationships with a BPD do not get better unless the BPD gets help, so it might be good to look at prevention of being involved with these types at all.

So for a non who has not dated a BPD before, I am not sure which part of the process makes them to blame, or point out character flaws within themselves, other than dating incorrectly.

A. An attractive girl wants you sexually, and she also seems to want what you want through conversations.  That's normal to have sex with her.

B. As the relationship develops, you start to notice issues she might have. You already are feeling rushes of dopamine, and she feels great to be around. So it's normal to stay. In most relationships people always put their best foot forward initially. It's very normal to want to fix things, and also believe the things you are being told by your lover are true.

C. She discards you.  She never had the same level of feelings she professed too. For any normal human this also hurts, can cause depression, and sadness.

I think if someone is dumping someone at the first sight of problems they probably have their own, worse set of issues.

So no, I don't believe simply because you fell for a BPD means that you have issues to fix. Many of us learn nothing from it all, other than how to be more careful in the future.  It's biologically normal to become attached, to a degree, after sex and dating.

Was it my fault that my ex was abused as a child? Or abandoned. Or that she became a compulsive liar and cheater long before me?  

What is my fault is that I let my guard down, did not know people like her exist, and I should have gotten to know her first, BEFORE all the sex and lovebimbing, as that can fundamentally change the mindset and clear thinking abilities of any man.  

Let's also not forget that they can hide things very well. It a toxic mix of lies through omission, love, sex, "poor me", not even knowing if she is BPD, and what to believe or what not to.

BPD women are usually very impulsive sexually. So I do believe, in most cases, simply getting to know someone, for a time period, would greatly reduce the number of "victims" of BPD women before it is too late.  As that is their main hook.  Great sex, lies, Love bombing. I don't think many of these BPD women would even want to stick around for a series of non sexual getting to know you dates.


I think if most of us look back at the beginning, us men atleast, and realize we probably overlooked many red flags as that is what we are biologically programmed to do as humans once we are having sex for the sake of procreation.

Not that we are consciously wanting to procreate, but that's how we are subconsciously wired. I wouldn't want to be "that guy" who can repeatedly have sex with a woman and NOT form a bond. To me that would be abnormal.






Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2018, 12:39:21 PM »

I think if most of us look back at the beginning, us men atleast, and realize we probably overlooked many red flags as that is what we are biologically programmed to do as humans once we are having sex for the sake of procreation.

Not that we are consciously wanting to procreate, but that's how we are subconsciously wired.

Very creative.  

Do you think it would help to read up on relationship psychology to help with  your various theories on why we all have nothing to learn from these experiences?

I know pointing out the disconnect in your theory doesn't help, so I won't. But there is a trend in most of these ideas of causal fallacy - "when railroad guard gates go down, it makes trains come" - type of thing.

I think adding more knowledge would help you craft better theories.

So for a non who has not dated a BPD before, I am not sure which part of the process makes them to blame, or point out character flaws within themselves, other than dating incorrectly.

Trying to increase our understanding of human behavior, or become more self-aware of why we things that cause us heartache, or why these relationships take us down, is not about blame and character flaws.

It's about learning. Growing.

Logged

 
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2018, 01:11:46 PM »

Very creative.  

Do you think it would help to read up on relationship psychology to help with  your various theories on why we all have nothing to learn from these experiences?

I know pointing out the disconnect in your theory doesn't help, so I won't. But there is a trend in most of these ideas of causal fallacy - "when railroad guard gates go down, it makes trains come" - type of thing.

I think adding more knowledge would help you craft better theories.

Trying to increase our understanding of human behavior, or become more self-aware of why we things that cause us heartache, or why these relationships take us down, is not about blame and character flaws.

It's about learning. Growing.



I have learned, that if looking for a partner, to take things slower. Which is what I am saying by not jumping into bed with girls you don't know.

So that to me would be learning and growing.

Have I learned anything that would lead to a successful relationship with a BPD? No.

Do I need a massive amount of introspection wondering why I fell for a hot girl, while having great sex, that was  very seductive with a very good story? No it could happen to anyone. 

Are you saying great sex with a hot girl who professes love does not cloud a mans jusgmebt?  I think it has throughout all of history.




Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2018, 02:29:51 PM »

Been seeing a woman for a year.  She is 31.  I am 40.

I was her soulmate etc.   helped her through many things including a custody battle.  She kept pushing for engagement.  Marriage.  Living together.  

In the past at times she would go cold.  Go back to her ex (for the kids) which would last 2 days.  

I looked past this.  She is attractive.  Loving.  Wealthy.  And I got sucked in.

We married 3 weeks ago.  I sensed a change.  She just became rude.  istant.  Nagging.  Condescending etc.

So we bickered for a couple of day.  Sunday night we made up and were looking for a new home together.  A month earlier she got a tatto "property of" with my name on her ass.

I got to work Monday and she is texting me she is planting a garden at our house etc.   I get home and she is gone.  Took all her stuff.  Put it in a storage garage.  Got a hotel

I have learned, that if looking for a partner, to take things slower.

Do I need a massive amount of introspection wondering why I fell for a hot girl, while having great sex, that was very seductive with a very good story? No it could happen to anyone.

It sounds like you don't "need a massive amount of introspection".
Logged

 
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2018, 05:36:25 PM »

It sounds like you don't "need a massive amount of introspection".

Correct.  I had a very attractive woman getting my name tattooed and giving me very large sums of money to be with her. Professing the deepest love, then vanishing.  It was madness

I feel that situation is 1 in a million and I didn't really learn much from it. Other than to take things slower. If every woman was her I would definitely need some major help in how to have a relationship and be happy in one.

As of now I have a sane gf and business, life, parenting is back to normal and doing very well.
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2018, 08:15:38 PM »

in the state of mind I was in at the time, the worlds expert on BPD could have given me a flowchart to go through during the relationship, I was too apathetic at the time to care, too arrogant and careless to rely on anyone else's judgement but my own - all my past relationships were fine, manageable and dealt without anything near that level of drama, destruction and intensity, yet I was unwittingly out of my depth and that can only be explained by being vulnerable at the time and being in the circumstanes where I was receptive to boundary crossing behaviour. Infactuation was a factor, a strong one, but far from being a pillar that kept it going.

The one thing I would change if I come across anomalies during dating is that if red flags arise and im not sure wether they should be relationship breaker and automatic discards, is communication. I regret not being more assertive and forcing open some dialogue, asking to explain confusing statements. Sure, she could have just clammed up as a result but that in itself would have been enough for me to lose interest, the dissipation of the "great rapport" that presented itself as a result of not discussing things that should have been, regardless of how uncomfortable they were subject matter wise.

if I find myself 'in love' in the future, and there is a tattoo that says "property of Cromwell", theres going to be a discussion expected following the themes of "possessiveness" and "objectification" alongside  idiosyncratic "romantic gestures". Failure to participate in such discussion is failure to progress the relationship further, and no guilt will be on my part as to the pain involved in laser removal procedure.

its easy to say good rapport and good company, when no communication takes place during red flag moments. I think if a person has sufficient assertiveness and emotionally well adjusted, it takes far more than just amazing sex to sweep aside all other sensibilities.


Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2018, 10:52:28 PM »


its easy to say good rapport and good company, when no communication takes place during red flag moments. I think if a person has sufficient assertiveness and emotionally well adjusted, it takes far more than just amazing sex to sweep aside all other sensibilities.



Of course... .

Let me put it this way...

If we didn't have sex with these women within a couple hours, and planned a date down the road,  odds are a few things would have happened.

A. They would have met someone else to love  bomb off the internet.
B. They would flake out on the next date
C. We would spend time talking to them, and probably realize things are just off.
D. They wouldn't have that opportunity to start texting how they miss you, how much they like you, etc.

They can bring an intensity that is overwhelming, and simply not normal. It's much harder to have serious conversations and think of red flags once in the midst of that.




Logged
toughday

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 40


« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 03:33:46 AM »

I dated my ex for 3 months before we were physically intimate.  I didn't keep count of the number of dates, but we saw each other at minimum twice a week, sometimes more and often for several hours at a time.  

The sex plays a part, definitely, but based on my own personal experience, not having sex early in the relationship didn't change the outcome.  The love bombing and idealization was there.  I still ignored or discounted or simply plain didn't see the red flags.  He was an exciting man. I didn't have reason to question any of the things he was telling me about his past.

That said, I do think things changed after sex.  That's when his jealousy and possessiveness really kicked into high gear.  It was as if that was the one thing left for him to accomplish to feel like he had me on the hook.  And I guess he did because it took 2 years for me to be free of him.

We waited 3 months too, I’m not sure it helped. The first 3 months were amazing. When it became intimate things changed rapidly and the first red flags appeared. By that point I was so in love she could have had a 10ft red flag sticking out of the top of her head and I wouldn’t have noticed.
Logged
spacecadet
formerly Wisedup22
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 136



« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2018, 05:36:52 AM »

Husband321, there's a lot of truth in your premise. Waiting a bit allows the friendship to develop and stay out front of the passion.

Casually dating several people at once is helpful so we don't put all our eggs in the basket of one person we barely know. A lot of these r/s seem to become exclusive very quickly.

Meeting people through friends is also better, whether a fix up or more spontaneously, so we have people in common and can ask about them. It's easy for people to deceive through internet. When we do meet people through internet sites, we can hold off on intimacy until we meet their friends and family... .you pick up on a lot about someone based on their relationships with others.

There is no guarantee, we still have to keep our eyes open and trust our gut, but why not stack the odds in our favor by having as much insight into a person's character as possible?

The other part of the equation is, know your boundaries and if they're not honored, take it seriously and react quickly. People who don't respect others' boundaries are usually this way from the get-go.

These ideas not only help avoid overly dramatic or destructive r/s, they are good for assessing long term compatibility... .assuming that's what someone would like.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2018, 06:55:10 AM »

Husband321, there's a lot of truth in your premise. Waiting a bit allows the friendship to develop and stay out front of the passion.

Casually dating several people at once is helpful so we don't put all our eggs in the basket of one person we barely know. A lot of these r/s seem to become exclusive very quickly.


Yes.  I think when sex occurs quickly several things change.

A. Atleast for me, you lose the ability to date others. Hard to be having sex with a girl and tell her you are dating others.

B. Things are speeded up. Being in love.  Wanting to live together. Commitment. She talked about living together on the second or third date.

C. I also had a nonchalant feeling about the whole situation. "Well things don't make sense, but the sex is great and she is a lot of fun"

D. Dating should be a bit like an interview where you go over important topics to see if you are compatible.  "o you want kids. Tel me about your family.   Tell me about your friends. What are your career goals. What happened in your last marriage.  " etc.    Not all just "wow.  I love you.  I never met anyone like you.  The chemistry is amazing. Never have I felt like this before" etc.

Looking back I can see how low my boundaries were. Even knowing better, I totally got swept up into this mix of love, sex, commitment, with barely knowing the person. 

Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2018, 09:05:01 AM »

By boundaries, I assume you mean life values as per... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I think you are on to something here.

You didn't just date her, you married her after a year of chaos. The red flags were were blatant, as you have said:

She lost custody of her own children.
She ran back to her ex husband a several times during the relationship.
The stability of your parenting was broken.
Your relationship was rocky.
Your life was on a roller coaster.

You liked "sex, hot, money".  You accepted all that for "sex, hot, money".  So much, you asked her to marry you. She moved out a few weeks after you married.

Surely you have the opportunity to see who she was, what her values were, how she handled stress, how she affected your life.

I think the lesson, as you say, is that you valued "sex, hot, money" much more than character, stability, intelligence, partnership, compassion.

This is not a uncommon theme as you pointed out earlier. We have all seen this in the young cute country girl who goes to the big city and gets caught up up in the stripper trade. Or the aspiring actresses who goes to the Hollywood film scene or LA music trade or New York dance... .

But is it the stripper club, Hollywood, LA music or New York dance that is the problem? Is it the bottle of beer?

Or is it the person who imbibes.

The same way, it is the general dating protocols or police policy (prior thread) or modern social norms (prior thread) that cause our problems. The theme in all of your threads is to put the relationship problems off on universal forces that you have no control over. In this thread that force is your reptilian brain. In other threads it has been social policy, or modern societal norms.

We don't have to go back to the 1950's lifestyle to have values. We can have values and still meet people on Match.com or in the grocery.

The true commitment we have to our values is clear when we see how we acted when they are tested.

Logged

 
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2018, 10:17:18 AM »

By boundaries, I assume you mean life values as per... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I think you are on to something here.

You didn't just date her, you married her after a year of chaos. The red flags were were blatant, as you have said:

She lost custody of her own children.
She ran back to her ex husband a several times during the relationship.
The stability of your parenting was broken.
Your relationship was rocky.
Your life was on a roller coaster.

You liked "sex, hot, money".  You accepted all that for "sex, hot, money".  So much, you asked her to marry you. She moved out a few weeks after you married.


It's always difficult to explain an entire relationship within paragraphs.

A. When we met she didn't have money.  She inherited about a million from father.
B. She proposed to me.  Came home from work and she got me a ring.
C. She never "lost" custody of kids.  She left.  (This was spun as being a martyr as he had a better support network and she didn't want his money)
D. She was amazing with my son.  One of the reasons I also looked past red flags.
E. She was a reknowned personal trainer.  Excellent at her job. (When she had a business)
F. Her supposed dream was to live on a farm with a nuclear stable family.

Now here is the thing.  For someone like you, or most people on these boards,it's blatantly obvious and you are BPD experts.

Many nons never even heard of this.  So we are blindsided and not fully prepared.

Of course, after she proposed and left I didn't want to take her back. She returns the next day to have sex, explain she can't live with someone etc. 2 weeks later she wants to put her entire inheritance in my name and I just give her a debit card as she spends too much money and it is ruining our love. So I took her back.


And on top of that she was very intelligent , but highly
Manipulative.   After our final break in December she befriended her ex husbands new wife, convinced her that her husband is bad, and they ended up getting a place together.  Until she also painted her black. But she was very adept at convincing people that she is this sweet, kind woman who just had bad luck with men.

So back to the main point.  Of course 2 nons can have sex on a first date.  All I am saying is that if I was not sexual with her, I would have seen things more clearly.  as would probably most of us on here.

Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2018, 10:43:54 AM »

For someone like you, or most people on these boards,it's blatantly obvious and you are BPD experts.

I'm not an expert. I'm just a member who has been here longer than you.    I never heard of BPD until I was 3.5 years into a relationship.  My ex was bigger than life in many ways and she was an incredible person. She also had demons.

I thought at first that I was blindsided. That I was reasonable in my actions.

In time I came to realize that 29% of the population is struggling with a mental illness or substance issues. I also came to realize that my understanding of human nature was woefully inadequate to navigate this world.

As I improved my understanding of human nature, I came to see that I wasn't playing the "A" game myself. That what I was looking for was a bit superfiscal. That conflicts in my life could be reduced if I took the time to understand people better. And maybe the hardest thing - that my ability to love, as good as I though it was, was not all that good. I could be a much better friend and lover.

This took a "massive amount of introspection" to use your words and many of us are on that journey. The "experts" here are not experts. They are graduates of their own personal inventories - self awareness.

It's not for everyone. But those that have made the journey swear by it. It has changed my life.

But, it's not for everyone.
Logged

 
zachira
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Posts: 2059


« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2018, 11:05:21 AM »

I firmly believe we are attracted to people that are where we are in terms of emotional maturity at the time of the attraction, and that we have a range of emotional maturity within ourselves at any given time. So when we are on the low end, we might be more susceptible to being with an unsafe person, and when we are feeling more grounded and comfortable in our own skin, we would be more likely to be attracted to a more mature person and reject someone who is emotionally unstable.
I have been in therapy for years, and I truly believe that I cannot blame the men I got into bad relationships with. I choose each and every one of them, and stayed in the relationship because of who I was at the time. As I keep improving my sense of self and values, I find that my relationships change with everybody, in that I attract better people in all areas of my life, and become more wary of people that are phony: a put on niceness in the beginning that does not seem real that I see if I am paying attention. My best friends are all people that I have had major disagreements with and we known how to disagree without ruining the friendship.
As the child of a mother with BPD, I know my weak point comes when life is really difficult when I tend to look for people to love me that are similar to the mother and family members who scapegoated and rejected me. My high point, which is most of the time now, is making friends with people who are comfortable with themselves and have integrity, and this can be challenging as I have to bring my very best self to the table which I can usually do because these type of people value harmony not drama like people with BPD.
I am thinking about dating, and if I do, it is going to be with someone I feel could be a good friend. Yes, I am attracted sometimes to the bad boys, and the sex could have been exciting and fun, and the emotional price is not worth it. I agree in taking time to know a person, and really seeing the person for who he is, and not inventing some wild fantasy about this person that does not exist, which can happen when there is a hot sexual attraction and not a real caring connection based on mutual respect for the others feelings. Women are lucky in that we can fall in love with someone we were not initially attracted to physically. My understanding is that most men usually know whether they like a woman from the beginning and their feelings are not likely to change, which makes the slow approach to dating harder for most men.
Logged

Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2018, 11:10:39 AM »

There is a talk of not reading into 'external' forces and I think I grasp the concept behind it.

Yet there are sociological forces out there that have enabled my ex as much as I have done.

If we were back in the 60s and to commit adultery would have the same level of social stigma and pariah status as it once did, pwBPD would have to double-think to restrain that urge/impulse.

urge/impulse trait does not equal being an automoton that just couldnt help behaving a certain way, and use a disorder as an excuse for it.

Society is changing rapidly - who doesnt have some sort of label nowadays, apparently I have a PD too, apparently im mildly depressed.  I like Husband incorporating some of that into discussion, Howard Becker wrote on Labelling theory, to crudely summarise; getting a label ascribed promotes the likelihood of acting out in that way. Label a young person who commits a few minor crimes a juvenile delinquent and they will go on to behave that way as society has expected it.

Ive got the external forces that encourage that I should take prosac, yet I havent accepted the label. I could easily wake up each day, behave in incosiderate ways and perpetually just say "oh, thats because im depressed". The night my ex cheated on me she was acting really stressed before she left when I said "whats wrong?" she replied

"BPD".
Logged
lenfan

*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 42


« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2018, 12:43:41 PM »

Husband321, not to try and torpedo your theory with one example, but my dating experience with my high functioning upwBPD was mostly traditional and old fashioned. It began in the pre-online-dating 90's. We were introduced by mutual friends. Sexual activity began slowly. (By today's standards at least it was slow. I came from a strong religious background, so any any pre-marital sexual activity came with some guilt baggage for me,  making me feel like we were moving very quickly at the time.) She was great with my family and friends and always said and did the "right" things. There was definitely a sense of "she is too good to be true." In hindsight there were some small red flags, but being on the receiving end of idealization made them easy to overlook, and she had the capacity to keep that going a very long time to the point to when  I was well committed to the relationship. (My thinking at the time, "What's a eye roll here and a nasty comment there, out of the blue, when 99% of the time things are great and this is the best looking most agreeable person I have ever been with? No one is perfect, and every one has their down moments, right? Of course. I've got my faults too. Relationships all have some of that."

So, I think people have gotten entangled into BPD relationships long before the current dating culture. There may not have been a name for it at the time, but it has probably been going on forever.  To answer your question, I don't think all these problems could be avoided simply by how we date. I think dating culture/practice is part of the puzzle, but not the whole thing.  More self-awareness and more awareness of of personality disorders in general would be of great help before dating though, I'm with you there.
Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2018, 12:47:52 PM »

If we were back in the 60s and to commit adultery would have the same level of social stigma and pariah status as it once did, pwBPD would have to double-think to restrain that urge/impulse.

The word "Normal" is a statistical term. Just like DSM is a statistical manual. Normal is an area with in a broader area. As the broader area changes, so does the definition of normal.

So yes, if you lived in the 50's or on a reservation, or in Serbia, normal would be different. If you move to an Amish community, you can achieve what you are suggesting to be better. You gf might not fare well there. But then again, would you? As you said earlier, you slept with her friends as revenge because you thought she might have been unfaithful. That would not fare well either in Amish country.

I think, from a practical perspective, its best to accept the reality you are in... .adapting is healthy.

Match.com can be really unhealthy. No doubt. But one can adapt and find healthy there. There are many stories of good relationships. Many bad. But like it or not, its a big part of our culture now.
Logged

 
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2018, 03:39:38 PM »

Husband321, not to try and torpedo your theory with one example, but my dating experience with my high functioning upwBPD was mostly traditional and old fashioned. It began in the pre-online-dating 90's. We were introduced by mutual friends. Sexual activity began slowly. (By today's standards at least it was slow. I came from a strong religious background, so any any pre-marital sexual activity came with some guilt baggage for me,  making me feel like we were moving very quickly at the time.) She was great with my family and friends and always said and did the "right" things. There was definitely a sense of "she is too good to be true." In hindsight there were some small red flags, but being on the receiving end of idealization made them easy to overlook, and she had the capacity to keep that going a very long time to the point to when  I was well committed to the relationship. (My thinking at the time, "What's a eye roll here and a nasty comment there, out of the blue, when 99% of the time things are great and this is the best looking most agreeable person I have ever been with? No one is perfect, and every one has their down moments, right? Of course. I've got my faults too. Relationships all have some of that."

So, I think people have gotten entangled into BPD relationships long before the current dating culture. There may not have been a name for it at the time, but it has probably been going on forever.  To answer your question, I don't think all these problems could be avoided simply by how we date. I think dating culture/practice is part of the puzzle, but not the whole thing.  More self-awareness and more awareness of of personality disorders in general would be of great help before dating though, I'm with you there.

No problem.   I am sure some coke addicted strippers changed their ways and became excellent moms and wives.  I wouldn't say that is the best way to find a wife however.

I like your post because you can relate. For example,

A. What if when you met your wife you knew she was placing ads in your local newspaper, with her photo, looking for anonymous sex?

B. What if you knew she would take polaroids of herself naked and hand them to strangers?

C. What if a condition to marry her was she needs her own phone line, and you can never know who she talks to?

I am assuming those would be big red flags.  But by today's standards that is tinder, selfies, and cell phones.  That is the new normal. Then you can go up the scale to BPD. Although at first all seem a bit similar

I agree with skip that this is the society we live in, and we have to adapt.  The question is how?

There is so much anonymity possible today, that was previously impossible.  I would categorize many women as "BPD lite" if we compare them to women of just a few decades ago.

That is the challenge.  How not to get sucked into a Jekyll and Hyde relationship whether they are BPD or not.

And I also wonder if something fundamentally changes within women once they cross certain boundaries themselves. And I hope this isn't taken as some sexist rant.

But once they have no problem bedding strangers, showing their naked body before meeting, (once again BPD or not), I wonder if they are fully able to become excellent housewives and mothers who do not need the constant adrenaline rush, and can be content with the mundane day to day tasks many of us have to do.



Logged
MeandThee29
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 882


« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2018, 04:15:08 PM »

Our relationship was slow to build, but I was so confused by growing up in an NPD household that I didn't see the warning signs.

I've said this before here, but a mutual friend observed that if we were ever going to have marriage problems, it would be because he was so rigid. And he had a largely absent father and was one of many children, so not a lot of parental attention. Both are risk factors for BPD of course.

The BPD was low key and manageable at first. I changed jobs so that I rarely travelled because he didn't do well when I was gone. I dropped most of my evening and weekend activities because he wanted me home. But I had work, and it was OK.

The problem came when babies arrived, and I stayed home with them. He didn't like having only part of my attention, and I realized then that his attention was largely on work and projects. It was a lonely, empty time for me, but in time it got better once they slept through the night, and I got part-time work.

Then the BPD went full-bore, and what a rollercoaster it was. About a year before he left, I went for therapy, and she asked all of the right questions. She predicted that we were headed for separation and told me to prepare. He left, tried to commit suicide, came home, and then left again. Thankfully now the kids are in college. And here we are.
Logged
JNChell
a.k.a. "WTL"
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Dissolved
Posts: 3519



« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2018, 03:09:59 PM »

 Husband321, I agree with much of what you’re saying here. We’re in a place of pain right now and it’s hard to receive advice from folks that are farther on down the line. We want to be validated in the here and now. I understand and agree with much of what you say

I also think that it would be wise to listen to folks like Skip. Also, you should weigh your thoughts and feelings against that.

Brother, we are here because we’re broken by someone. I hear your argument.

Keep moving forward.






Logged

“Adversity can destroy you, or become your best seller.”
-a new friend
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2018, 03:41:43 PM »

My ex lover is a beautiful, sexy, wealthy woman who enticed me into making a 200 mile trip to meet her (after meeting online). She didn't mention she was married until we had slept together. Thus began 2 versions of our r/s. One lasting 2 years and another (after an 8 year gap) lasting 6 years and started up again not long after i got married myself. It has been the most painful and revealing r/s of my life.

When I first came on these boards 18 months ago, I thought my ex lover was totally to blame for everything that went wrong in the r/s. I thought she was a manipulative, lying, femme fatale who couldn't care less about my pain. The only thing she was interested in was keeping me on the hook. Then it was suggested to me that we meet our emotional equals.

I have come to understand that the vulnerability I felt in the r/s was similar to the vulnerability she felt in the r/s. I now understand that this kind of vulnerability is also partly to do with childhood wounds/trauma in my own life which means I have been unable to cope properly in relationships for a very long time and I didn't understand why. It turns out that the keeping me on the hook thing that my ex was doing was identical to what I was doing to her. Why? Because we both fear abandonment.

I knew nothing about BPD when I first came here. I have done some extensive reading around the topic and while I am quite sure that my ex has many of the traits that would make up a diagnosis (not that I'm a doctor, so my assertion may not be reliable), I am equally certain that I have some of the traits too, perhaps just not to the same extreme level as my ex.

What has this revelation made me do? I now seek to avoid conflict with my ex. I suddenly realised mid argument that the whole conversation around my hurt feelings was utterly futile. I was not going to change her behaviour and if I wanted to be on good terms with her, then attacking her and creating anxiety in her was exacerbating her mental health issues and triggering any personality disorder she has. I also discovered that by bringing an end to the drama and trying different ways of turning down the volume on my own hurt feelings and extreme emotions, that I am able to function much better. I am back talking to my ex and feel happier. I have no intention of ever seeing her again but right now we both need the contact.

I no longer look upon a pwBPD as some hurtful alien creature who has set out to destroy me. I see somebody not dissimilar to me: a deeply flawed individual trying to do her best having been handed some fairly tough cards to play in life. In short, I got in touch with my empathy and it has helped me not just with my ex but with all of my relationships.

I came in here thinking the problem was her. I have now discovered that the problem is also me.



Logged

MeandThee29
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 882


« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2018, 04:39:37 PM »


What has this revelation made me do? I now seek to avoid conflict with my ex. I suddenly realised mid argument that the whole conversation around my hurt feelings was utterly futile. I was not going to change her behaviour and if I wanted to be on good terms with her, then attacking her and creating anxiety in her was exacerbating her mental health issues and triggering any personality disorder she has. I also discovered that by bringing an end to the drama and trying different ways of turning down the volume on my own hurt feelings and extreme emotions, that I am able to function much better. I am back talking to my ex and feel happier. I have no intention of ever seeing her again but right now we both need the contact.

I no longer look upon a pwBPD as some hurtful alien creature who has set out to destroy me. I see somebody not dissimilar to me: a deeply flawed individual trying to do her best having been handed some fairly tough cards to play in life. In short, I got in touch with my empathy and it has helped me not just with my ex but with all of my relationships.

I came in here thinking the problem was her. I have now discovered that the problem is also me.

Excellent insights. You've gotten to a point of understanding. I came to same sorts of conclusions. I feel deeply sorry for him in his isolation and pain, but I can't interact any more with him one-on-one.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2018, 12:07:16 AM »

My ex lover is a beautiful, sexy, wealthy woman who enticed me into making a 200 mile trip to meet her (after meeting online). She didn't mention she was married until we had slept together. Thus began 2 versions of our r/s. One lasting 2 years and another (after an 8 year gap) lasting 6 years and started up again not long after i got married myself. It has been the most painful and revealing r/s of my life.

When I first came on these boards 18 months ago, I thought my ex lover was totally to blame for everything that went wrong in the r/s. I thought she was a manipulative, lying, femme fatale who couldn't care less about my pain. The only thing she was interested in was keeping me on the hook. Then it was suggested to me that we meet our emotional equals.

I have come to understand that the vulnerability I felt in the r/s was similar to the vulnerability she felt in the r/s. I now understand that this kind of vulnerability is also partly to do with childhood wounds/trauma in my own life which means I have been unable to cope properly in relationships for a very long time and I didn't understand why. It turns out that the keeping me on the hook thing that my ex was doing was identical to what I was doing to her. Why? Because we both fear abandonment.

I knew nothing about BPD when I first came here. I have done some extensive reading around the topic and while I am quite sure that my ex has many of the traits that would make up a diagnosis (not that I'm a doctor, so my assertion may not be reliable), I am equally certain that I have some of the traits too, perhaps just not to the same extreme level as my ex.

What has this revelation made me do? I now seek to avoid conflict with my ex. I suddenly realised mid argument that the whole conversation around my hurt feelings was utterly futile. I was not going to change her behaviour and if I wanted to be on good terms with her, then attacking her and creating anxiety in her was exacerbating her mental health issues and triggering any personality disorder she has. I also discovered that by bringing an end to the drama and trying different ways of turning down the volume on my own hurt feelings and extreme emotions, that I am able to function much better. I am back talking to my ex and feel happier. I have no intention of ever seeing her again but right now we both need the contact.

I no longer look upon a pwBPD as some hurtful alien creature who has set out to destroy me. I see somebody not dissimilar to me: a deeply flawed individual trying to do her best having been handed some fairly tough cards to play in life. In short, I got in touch with my empathy and it has helped me not just with my ex but with all of my relationships.

I came in here thinking the problem was her. I have now discovered that the problem is also me.


Let me ask this... .As this seems to be a re occurring theme I can't yet grasp... (But I am guessing this was another online quick sexual hook up that led to more)

Let's say you met this beautiful wealthy woman after your 200 mile drive, and she was not married, and not BPD... .

Do you feel you were healthy enough to have a functional relationship and life with her?

Or do we get sucked into relationships with these "crazy" , lying, manipulators who bring out all sorts of dormant/ bad sides in us, that then need to be fixed? Or we then think need to be fixed? Push/pull, up/down, love/hate, elaborate stories, lies, and excuses... Whom is programmed to know how to deal with these types, in real time.  Of course, looking back is far easier.

It seems we are then "co dependent", "too nice", "narcissistic", "afraid to be abandoned", "need to work on ourselves", "need to learn" etc.

Who on earth does not have any issues AT ALL that someone out there cannot bring out?.  

Is it better to live life being confident with whom we are and using a bit more common sense? Or is it better to try and somehow analyze every part of ourselves, and in a way blame ourselves for falling for someone who spent a life time mastering the art of lying, deception, mirroring, manipulation, etc.




Logged
JNChell
a.k.a. "WTL"
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Dissolved
Posts: 3519



« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2018, 01:18:01 AM »

This was part of your response to another poster, but it struck me so I’d like to elaborate.

Is it better to live life being confident with whom we are and using a bit more common sense? Or is it better to try and somehow analyze every part of ourselves, and in a way blame ourselves for falling for someone who spent a life time mastering the art of lying, deception, mirroring, manipulation, etc.

Maybe it just depends on where a person is with themselves. I think that in being truly confident with ourselves, common sense is as easy as taking a breath. I’m speaking from personal experience when I say that I thought I had unbreakable confidence for a stretch of my life, but I allowed it to be crushed by others. I’d have to conclude that my confidence wasn’t all that good if I allowed this to happen.

I think it’s important to analyze things when we are feeling troubled. This separates us from the people that lead us to this support group. The hard part and crux of this can be being too hard on ourselves. Blaming ourselves. How does that help our confidence?

I don’t believe that the people that hurt us have perfected an art form. I believe that they are surviving through perpetual victomhood. This is probably the only grey area of their life. Stuck between being a victim and survivor.

The anger is an important part of the process, Husband321. It gets better. It begins to fade and the weight of it becomes lighter. I know that it doesn’t feel that way right now. Embrace the anger for as long as you need to, but be mindful to know that you will need to let it go at some point. Don’t get stuck in it.
Logged

“Adversity can destroy you, or become your best seller.”
-a new friend
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2018, 04:00:03 AM »

Hi Husband321,

To some degree any r/s is fraught with tensions over time. Therefore at some point we all have to examine ourselves and see if some of our behaviours are unreasonable or codependent or unhealthy. It’s just when we get involved with our BPDs the conflict is so extreme and their behaviour so erratic and hurtful that the self examination becomes necessary to mitigate our pain.

Prior to meeting my BPD I had a very painful push/pull r/s in which my behaviour was not unlike that of a BPD. She told me she loved me very early on and it was clear that she wanted a full on r/s at the age of 32. I was not ready for that and felt engulfment. I didn’t have the emotional intelligence to discuss it with her so I pushed her away and had affairs. I couldn’t understand my own behaviour and it took me many years to recover from my guilt.

When I met the BPD she seemed to be very much on my wavelength. I had met my emotional equal. That should have made me run a mile because my emotional equal was not healthy. I was attracted to her because she had similar traits to me. That is the point I am making.  I never would have recognised what those traits were had there not been issues in the r/s . We only recognise these things through pain. If the r/s is all happy and fun then why would we need to self examine?
Logged

Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2018, 09:37:42 AM »

If the r/s is all happy and fun then why would we need to self examine?

Touching on what Cromwell said... .About how society today basically normalizes cheating etc... .

As an example, my father had me at a later age and grew up in war torn Germany. One of 13 children. He came to the USA and met my mother.  A very beautiful woman.

They were married 35 years until she passed. Now, honestly, how much do you think he delved into introspection? "Working on himself"... If I asked him today about depression it would be something he never even heard of. yet he had the tools, as did my mom, to rate children, be together everyday, and have a lifelong relationship.

And of course, I grew up in a home with one phone. If you talk, everyone is sitting around listening, ... There was no privacy, secrecy, etc. No secret apps where you see the 1000 hottest guys and girls in your neighborhood when you hit martial speed bumps. Cheating and divorce was of course frowned upon.  

I think part of the reason some of us stay in these relationships, is because when we look around, so many men I know at least, are divorced, horror stories about wife cheating, them cheating, wife vanishing, screwed with child support and cant see kids. Facebook is mentioned in 80% of divorces etc.

Even if we become much closer to perfect, and pick a much better mate, is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?  Or is that having an expectation that it too high, because people need to be happy 24/7, privacy, anonymity, and cheating is soo easy, and yes, divorce, and cheating is normalized.

I looked at my ex like "Well at least she just left her ex husband and the kids and didn't cheat and THEN screw him for 15 years of alimony and child support". As that is what I have seen happen to most people I know. And what was their husband's huge fault? The woman was not "happy" and met someone else on the internet... Along with legal financial incentives that facilitate finding "happiness".
Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2018, 10:28:29 AM »

Excerpt
Touching on what Cromwell said... .About how society today basically normalizes cheating etc... .

I agree things have changed, but I don't think society normalizes cheating. I just think there is less stigma attached to it than years ago. That's different to normalizing it.

Excerpt
As an example, my father had me at a later age and grew up in war torn Germany. One of 13 children. He came to the USA and met my mother.  A very beautiful woman.

They were married 35 years until she passed. Now, honestly, how much do you think he delved into introspection? "Working on himself"... If I asked him today about depression it would be something he never even heard of. yet he had the tools, as did my mom, to rate children, be together everyday, and have a lifelong relationship.

That was exactly my experience too. My mum and dad stayed together from 18 years old until she died aged 62. My father misses her every day. However, my father had a nervous breakdown and suffers from depression. He was a serviceman in the US Air Force but feels his depression has always been there like a black dog waiting to bite him. My parents raised 5 kids too and I know they did the best they could with the tools they had.

Excerpt
And of course, I grew up in a home with one phone. If you talk, everyone is sitting around listening, ... There was no privacy, secrecy, etc. No secret apps where you see the 1000 hottest guys and girls in your neighborhood when you hit martial speed bumps. Cheating and divorce was of course frowned upon.  

Once again, I had a similar experience growing up. How is it then that we have both ended up on these boards? Do you really think it's just because we have met a range of detestable partners, or could there be something in us that perhaps was damaged in childhood? I know the answer to that in my case. In fact, my parents fought so damn much I often wished they would divorce. I don't say that lightly or with humour. It was often a tense and toxic atmosphere in my house.

Excerpt
I think part of the reason some of us stay in these relationships, is because when we look around, so many men I know at least, are divorced, horror stories about wife cheating, them cheating, wife vanishing, screwed with child support and cant see kids. Facebook is mentioned in 80% of divorces etc.

There's no doubt that social media makes it easier to meet people, but I don't think it necessarily makes people cheat. I think the unhappiness has to be there in order for people to cheat. As I said before, there is certainly less stigma attached to cheating these days and perhaps we are a worse society because of it. However, does that really explain why we got involved with BPDs and stayed in the relationships?

Excerpt
Even if we become much closer to perfect, and pick a much better mate, is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?  Or is that having an expectation that it too high, because people need to be happy 24/7, privacy, anonymity, and cheating is soo easy, and yes, divorce, and cheating is normalized.

Good question. Divorce isn't easy though. It is expensive and painful. I don't think anybody would divorce lightly. Perhaps people are less inclined to stay in unhappy relationships these days.

Excerpt
I looked at my ex like "Well at least she just left her ex husband and the kids and didn't cheat and THEN screw him for 15 years of alimony and child support". As that is what I have seen happen to most people I know. And what was their husband's huge fault? The woman was not "happy" and met someone else on the internet... Along with legal financial incentives that facilitate finding "happiness".

Are you saying that it's always women who cheat? I don't think the statistics would agree with that. Also, who are they cheating with? Men have to come into that equation too.

You sound angry Husband321 and I totally understand. I have often thought I was old fashioned and too romantic for this world. However, I am also culpable and have behaved poorly towards women I have not had the same emotional attachment to as my ex. It is a tough world in terms of love at the moment and many young people I know complain that alot of their partners just want to hook up without commitment. However, because I am a romantic at heart, I do believe it is possible to find love. We just have to get over our hurt and get back out there and play the love game again. Perhaps armed with some info about who to avoid next time?



Logged

Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2018, 11:11:48 AM »


Good question. Divorce isn't easy though. It is expensive and painful. I don't think anybody would divorce lightly. Perhaps people are less inclined to stay in unhappy relationships these days.


Yes... .And that is partially my point...

I do not think 1 person on earth was raised "perfectly" with zero issues from childhood. They can even be minor that have an effect on us. Or major. "ad worked too much" "Mom worked too much" "Parents fought" "I was bullied" "We moved around a lot" "ad died" "Mom died""ivorce" ""poverty" "too much money" "drugs and alcohol" "sexual abuse" "Parents too demanding" "parents didn't care much" "adultery" etc etc etc

If your parents DID divorce, you may have been 10 times worse off today. It's impossible to say. Or better.

And I do not think 1 marriage on earth, in history, was a straight upward line from meeting towards extacy. Getting better and better each day.

It's always  series of ups and downs... The question is how do we handle the downs?

Do we say "Oh, well he/she isn't making me happy... Ill tell everyone and look outside my marriage". "ill have an affair". Or do we realize that life is not always about "being happy", and if you marry someone, barring extreme circumstances, what we feel is 100% normal. Life is not all about fun, vacations, sex, and bliss.

It seems much more so today, people choose the former options, and not the latter.

And it's not just about "why did we get involved with BPD's"

Hindsight is always 20/20. These people did not carry a sign. Many of us never even heard of it before. And no matter who you end up with, everyone else can always say "oh, how didn't you see that coming".

And that is also my point... Who do we avoid? Even with balanced people, The questions come after a few years when the love phase wears off, and then you really have to work on resisting temptation and adjusting to regular life.


It's a bit like "Today, to have a lasting marriage I have to fight all of these forces... Divorce laws that provide an incentive to divorce. How easy it is to cheat. Constantly working on myself and my flaws. finding a partner that does the same" etc

Where as in the past none of these things even existed, and I can't say people are "happier" today either.  As according to skip 30% of us are depressed.









Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2018, 11:27:06 AM »

Times certainly have changed, a few stories I had from growing up regarding adultery that were relayed to me already in childhood. (my grandparents both met in Germany and married within the forces.

One guy who decided to sleep with the wife of a Gurkha has his arm chopped off with a machete. The level of introspection that went into that was what he told my grandmother "when man touches your wife, must chop".  (exact words and intonation repeated here)

Pretty succinct, no requirements for therapy or anger management. An almost 100% solution to avoid a repeatance.

another version where the cheating wife was placed on top of a cooker stove.

I dont condone this level of violence or to say that "back in the day" it was better. What I will say is the contrast to back then and now on how there is literally no societal form of disgrace in adultery or cheating it is moving towards becoming not normalised but 'not a big deal' and casually and cooly coming as no surprise when mentioned.

I was brought up to believe that to make a marriage vow was more than just performing some ritual, or getting some good snaps for facebook.

It is a cultural issue, but as Skip said, if it is a big enough deal the solution is to move to either a country or a community which is more in line with traditional values that match the "bygone era".

As far as I went, I beat the guy up, which is inline with sub-cultural expectations of where I live and the social circles I was in at the time, my behaviour was functional. Her cheating in her mind was also acceptable and as shawnlam famously once said "the same as going for a cup of coffee" for her there was no big deal about it and that is why she is unable to empathise with those she has hurt who she gave the heavy impression they were loved more than anything else in the world, etc etc.

My fault was of being too trusting and believing without taking the time to test. If I had to comfort an elderly person who had their life savings swindled by an elaborate con artist, I would not tell them they needed to go to therapy or begin heavy introspection to their faults, id apply common sense and reassure them they are not "stupid" they were trusting and were vulnerable.

To resonate what Skip said, it is about adapting but id go further and say that moving to a culture which is more serious about the values we hold also makes sense. For me, the cheating was not the deal breaker, it was to have been drawn in with heavy love bombing and then to face out of nowhere that behaviour, it was a proverbial blow to the back of the head, came as a shock and entirely unexepected for maximum dramatic effect. Wether or not she was back in my bed a week later, semi-remoarseful for her impulsivity - it was a sticky plaster on a very deep wound that rather than carry on through, common sense was to drop her there and then. Why I didnt is the extent of introspection required to ensure I dont repeat that mistake in future, thats important and I certainly wont trust again so easily, yet I wont go down a path that also seems popular in our modern times of rushing to a therapist, spiritualist or psychic hotline, assemble a team of postmodernist know-it-alls to persuade me that im not getting with the times and that my views are not modern anymore all the whilst conveniently pocketing a nice slice of my monthly paycheque as I defer to their assumed superior intellect. Its not just an identity crisis inherent in borderlines, it seems that the trends change on a monthly basis depending on what the celebs dictate for the sheeple to follow on their twitter.

Lets face it society tries to make out that it promotes individualism, yet how can we much of individuals if millions of people are doing exactly the same thing, watching the same banal stuff and emulating it? Racing to a therapist because all the celebs do it. No thanks.
Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2018, 11:27:54 AM »

Excerpt
Or do we realize that life is not always about "being happy", and if you marry someone, barring extreme circumstances, what we feel is 100% normal. Life is not all about fun, vacations, sex, and bliss.

I have spent much of my life very unhappy... .in relationships. Had I not been so co-dependent then I would have left them.

However, I do agree with you that we have to try and work on our relationships. After I got married 6 years ago, my BPD ex came back into my life. This was a woman who I had a very strong sexual attraction towards and made me feel in a way that my wife never did. Had my ex wanted me to commit to her (fat chance since she has been married for 30 years) I would have done. And that would have been the worst decision of my life.

I am still married and trying to work on my r/s with my wife. There are many good things about the r/s but one of the problems is that it lacks excitement. It's because we are both preoccupied with our own lives. Should I leave? Probably. We don't have a sex life and sleep in separate rooms. However, I feel a bit like you, that nobody tries hard enough to make marriages work and she wants to be with me and loves me. We will in all likelihood jog along together with no passion but a stoic commitment to each other because I don't want to leave because I no longer believe in this wild passionate state of being in love (limerence) but I do believe in working at a r/s and staying together like my parents did. I am not particularly happy, but I am not unhappy either. Yet, something in the back of my mind niggles and says shouldn't I be happier? I think that is precisely what you are talking about isn't it? There is no easy solution to my situation, but I would not run off with somebody i met on the internet because I have learnt from the pain with my ex. Plus I know I am also not reliable and my own emotions are not to be trusted. In many ways, my drama free, slightly boring r/s is probably saving me from my own worst excesses and poor judgement.
Logged

Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2018, 12:01:33 PM »


As far as I went, I beat the guy up, which is inline with sub-cultural expectations of where I live and the social circles I was in at the time, my behaviour was functional. Her cheating in her mind was also acceptable and as shawnlam famously once said "the same as going for a cup of coffee" for her there was no big deal about it and that is why she is unable to empathise with those she has hurt who she gave the heavy impression they were loved more than anything else in the world, etc etc.

My fault was of being too trusting and believing without taking the time to test. If I had to comfort an elderly person who had their life savings swindled by an elaborate con artist, I would not tell them they needed to go to therapy or begin heavy introspection to their faults, id apply common sense and reassure them they are not "stupid" they were trusting and were vulnerable.

To resonate what Skip said, it is about adapting but id go further and say that moving to a culture which is more serious about the values we hold also makes sense. For me, the cheating was not the deal breaker, it was to have been drawn in with heavy love bombing and then to face out of nowhere that behaviour, it was a proverbial blow to the back of the head, came as a shock and entirely unexepected for maximum dramatic effect.

Pretty much exactly what I am trying to say...

I would think most of us here did not meet a drug addicted prostitute who opened up about herself on date one, and we set out to change her as that is all we can get in a mate.

We met someone who presented themselves to be someone else, who love bombed us, who definitely seemed to be genuine, who seemed to be honest, then had no problem serial cheating as if they are shaking hands or having a cup of coffee...

Then it is presented that WE have all these issues for being trusting and not testing enough.

In one post relationship conversation with my ex, I lamented "I am surprised we even made it that long". And she said , (perhaps BS) "it's because you are the strongest person I ever met"

And in a way it is true. I not only handled my life, work, and family, I took on all of her problems. (Which I should not have)... But perhaps many of us nons are stronger and "better" than others  as we end up with BPD's, and our big flaw is not being "co dependent", or various other issues, but it is that we have such a strong character that we CAN handle more than others... Similar to the con artist , the BPD is the bad/flawed person, not the trusting and stable non.

And unrelated... .

But is anyone else scared of future "marriage" in this society?

In Scandinavian nations the default notion is "joint" custody, and a small amount of child support is awarded for children basic needs...

It's not some perverse notion of awarding one parent the "primary", and transferring the income of one parent to the other, including pension, retirement, alimony etc.  "Ok you make 10k a month, so your wife who monkey branched and cheated gets $3500 to raise your son with her new man"







Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2018, 12:28:28 PM »

Interesting Cromwell,

Excerpt
Lets face it society tries to make out that it promotes individualism, yet how can we much of individuals if millions of people are doing exactly the same thing, watching the same banal stuff and emulating it? Racing to a therapist because all the celebs do it. No thanks.

What is promoted most highly in all Hollywood films? The family. Most films' plots are about keeping the family together. It is always regarded as the worst possible thing that can happen when an 'intruder' comes in and breaks up the family. In more recent films such as The War Of The Worlds the broken family was catered to but the real parents still retained the most important place in the structure.

I think the family is a big part of the individualistic world that America promotes. We are brought up to believe there is one true love for us all out there and when we meet them our lives will fall into place and we will live happily ever after. It is nothing more than a fairy story but we all buy into it time and again because the unbearable lightness of being is terrible and without a significant other to give our lives meaning, what the hell are we all here for? Relationships are pursued to stave off existential angst.
Logged

Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2018, 12:36:04 PM »

Interesting Cromwell,

What is promoted most highly in all Hollywood films? The family.

It's funny how people see things differently... I would have said the overall media theme is "men are dumb", alternative lifestyles, fantasy, cartoons,war, divorce, etc. I can't think of one movie with a strong and capable man leading his traditional family.

Who is probably the most famous woman in America? And role model for young women? A woman famous for being urinated on in a sex tape who has a big bottom. Kim Kardashian.
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2018, 12:50:26 PM »

And unrelated... .

But is anyone else scared of future "marriage" in this society?

Asides from tax advantages I see no purpose for it in the traditional sense, I deemed marriage beyond the romantic spiritual commitment as being more of a social based commitment to raise children in security, the stigma attached of being a divorce-e or adultery being at that time an effective way to dissuade break up. Problem is it was deemed too effective, resulting in woman feeling like chattel and trapped legally to break away from abusive and domineering husbands. Yet, the pendulum has swung fantatically into the other corner, no middle ground, its now not worth the paper printed on and statistically most are destined to failure. The same as bankruptcy was a social stigma, we now have "accelerated bankruptcy" with little penalty attached, it is also far easier and quicker to effect a divorce than it once was. During my grandparents time, adultery was the only valid legal reason for divorce, to enter into a marriage on that basis was to enter into a serious commitment. Those who try to also normalise that kids from 'broken' homes (probably not the politically correct term either), is alright, because there is now such a high percentage in society, its normal and not a big deal.

Theres already people having sex with human like dolls, wait until the day comes that a marriage is broken because the wife cheated with an android or via versa - give it 5 or 10 years.

Im not 'afraid' of marriage as such Husband123 but theres going to be a range of contingency management, prenuptials and insurances. Its important what you said many times, take sufficient time to know the partner, the ones that fail are a result of lack of this. There is this societal pressure to have everything, instantly, with little restraint on impulsivity. That is down to a lack of deterrent or punishment. Here in the UK, 40% is deduced from after-tax income regardless of anything else for child maintenance. In contrast to Scandanavian countries we have a budget deficit in the trillions diametric to theirs in credit, all I can suggest is they can afford to socialise shoulder the outcome of individuals breeding choices better than we can.
Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2018, 01:09:50 PM »

Excerpt
It's funny how people see things differently... I would have said the overall media theme is "men are dumb", alternative lifestyles, fantasy, cartoons,war, divorce, etc. I can't think of one movie with a strong and capable man leading his traditional family.

The landscape in Hollywood is changing there is no doubt, but to be honest it is about time. Women had to put up with being painted as dumb ever since movies began. I'd say the current time is simply redressing the balance.

However, I don't think all men are portrayed as dumb in current movies, it's just simply there are more movies about strong females. Interestingly, I've often thought that my ex presented as a damsel-in-distress in order to attract more male attention. Perhaps it is learned behaviour from her childhood when she would be on display for her father's friends. There must be nothing worse than that kind of betrayal from somebody who is supposed to protect you.
Logged

once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 11517



« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2018, 01:27:07 PM »

some of my problems could have been avoided by how i dated, sure.

mind you, i wasnt seduced by hot sex or looks. i didnt meet my ex on a dating site.

i had come from a series of really immature relationships and heartbreak. as much as i thought i knew about what makes a healthy relationship, or really even my understanding of the nature and course of relationships, i was seriously far off, but i did a little better each time.

she was my first real adult relationship at twenty one. it stands to reason that we were both pretty immature, though i know and knew twenty one year olds that werent getting into the messes that i was or responding to and coping with heartbreak the way i was.  

to detail how my immaturity played out would be longer than this thread can contain. highlights include taking a hammer to some cds, shouting and pounding on her door when she locked me out of her apartment and standing in front of her car threatening to "beat the _____ out of it", using threats of a breakup (literally hundreds of times) to get my way, calling her names (screaming) like "psycho" and "crazy" and "I HATE BEING YOUR BOYFRIEND", lying, going outside the relationship, pulling away and neglecting the relationship instead of having the fortitude to end it, and probably hundreds of ways that i treated her or myself that did not align with my values.

who here thinks thats the stuff of an emotionally mature guy who had nothing to learn.

as far as dating goes, the girl i saw after that was a serious piece of work, and the one after that was questionable... .i over pursued with both. over pursuing, by the way, not a good relationship skill.

30% of us are depressed.

70-80% of members at bpdfamily are depressed. its 30% of the general population that has some form of mental illness, be it anxiety/depression or another mood disorder, or a full blown personality disorder (5-10% of the population).

i think the point behind that is that its not about other people or external forces or cultural norms. its about who we are, where we are going, and whether or not we have the skills and tools to navigate a difficult and challenging world; whether we thrive or we get our butts kicked. the person i am today would never have gotten into the mess(es) that i did and perpetually struggled. the person i am today has a lot more confidence, street smarts, more peace of mind, and a better, more sound internal compass.

how often do we read on this board the notion that people with personality disordered traits refuse or are incapable of introspection, growth, self improvement, and blame others and outside forces?

well?
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2018, 02:23:39 PM »

Excerpt
how often do we read on this board the notion that people with personality disordered traits refuse or are incapable of introspection, growth, self improvement, and blame others and outside forces?

once removed - this is the key to it all for me. When we are in pain we cannot hear another person's point of view. When we reside in our fantasy of what our life should be, rather than what it actually is, the less capable we are of taking on board reality.

When I came onto these boards, I knew intellectually all of the above. I have been in a 12 step programme for 20 years. There is a saying, 'When you point the finger at somebody there are three fingers pointing back at you.' The problem for me has been my own emotional dysregulation. That is what I never knew about and what always made me behave in the childish way you describe above. There are so many things I could have done differently with my ex which would have saved me an awful lot of stress and probably not triggered her anxiety as regularly and comprehensively as I did. Pouring out my heart in long-winded and blaming diatribes at her in the hope that she would tune into my core values and stop doing what she was doing, springs to mind. This was a futile exercise. For a start I was compromising my own core values because I was cheating on my wife. When you inhabit the world of moral muckiness, then you get moral muckiness back. I expected her to be reliable, loving and honest towards me and yet neither of us were behaving that way towards our partners.

I have more sympathy for my younger self when I encountered my ex the first time around. I was much younger and trying to get off alcohol. I encountered this woman who seemed to be the answer to all of my prayers and dreams and would love me forever like I was prepared to love her. It was an exercise in immaturity and fantasy on my part to ignore the evidence of my own eyes and ears. She lied to me about being single and when she finally told me, had I been a more fully rounded individual, I would have gotten out of there never to return. I didn't. I invited the drama into my life because I thought she was a sexual Goddess and I couldn't resist her. The second time round 8 years later it was the same thing. I couldn't resist her physically. But I was older, apparently wiser and I should have known better. I was married myself and my moral compass was skewed. I told myself my ex was the true love of my life and if she wanted me finally, after all these years, I would correct the mistake I made by getting married and we could be together after all. That was an act of insanity. My refusal to look at the evidence before my eyes and the history of our fraught r/s was discarded in favour of living in my fantasy world where I could have the woman of my dreams. The trouble has always been that being anywhere near my ex has been almost painful, I am so attracted to her. If that happened again and I perceived the woman was crazy or a liar, I would now run a mile. A very painful lesson learnt and one that I may never get the opportunity to put into practise again. Nevertheless, I am wiser for the experience.
Logged

Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2018, 03:37:20 PM »

And of course, I grew up in a home with one phone. If you talk, everyone is sitting around listening, ... There was no privacy, secrecy, etc.

Did you know that the divorce rate was doubled in your fathers generation from his fathers? Some people in his generation hearkened back to the good old days of the 20's and 30's", just as you are doing.

134 years ago, Friedrich Nietzsche declared “God is Dead". After the Enlightenment, the idea of a universe that was governed by physical laws and not by divine providence was now reality. He spoke of a huge cultural change.

In 58 AD, the Bible speaks about the depravity and evil in the book of Roman's and of lost men doing bad things in the name of God. This was considered to be an explosion of human depravity.

My point is that the answer to thriving in today's world is not to wring our hands about change... .that is the fodder of victimization and helplessness and bitterness.

We actually live in a much easier world today. The world wars claimed the lives of 6% of the worlds population. In the 14th Century, plague claimed the lives of 60% of the population of Europe.

Now, honestly, how much do you think he delved into introspection? "Working on himself"... .

You have been here for 1.5 years and are deeply locked on the idea that self-awareness is about blame (it is not) and self-awareness is a waste of time. You feel that you were powerless to see, early on, that your wife had deep issues. You feel that the lure of sex and money and idealization are insurmountable forces.

You and I may have been naive to fall into the relationships we did. That was yesterdays issue. Today's issue is to ask ourselves the question - "If I know more bout human nature, would I have made better decisions in my life" - I think the answer is yes. And a huge part of understanding human nature is to understand ourselves.

But I have an even more fundamental question for you. Not wanting to learn more about human nature and become more self-aware is your right. You can make that choice. My question is, why do you want to encourage others to make this same choice?

Even if we become much closer to perfect, and pick a much better mate, is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?  Or is that having an expectation that it too high, because people need to be happy 24/7, privacy, anonymity, and cheating is soo easy, and yes, divorce, and cheating is normalized.

Much closer to perfect... .

Interesting choice of words. Is this your image of yourself?

Is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?

Again, interesting choice of words. Is this the primary measure of success?

One thought. In the 60's, sociologists saw the "family" as a functional necessity - survival. A bread winner, a child rearer, a nest for the young.  

Today's socialist's suggest that relationships, because things are so good in society, have evolved to be more about a partner that helps us with self actualization - achieve our goals.
Logged

 
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2018, 04:09:38 PM »

I dont think my future choice of long term commited relationship is even up for debate - I cant - rather than wont - be able to go through that again; a partner that requires being rescued, my carrying that burden throughout, the guilt of then discarding because i reach my limitations, realise it is a hopeless cause and my quality of life and wellbeing is wrecked too far.

Once was enough, and the crucial thing that sustained all this was emotional involvement happening at a pace that outstripped the pace of actually getting to know her properly - that meant - getting to the stage where I am now nearly 4 years from the day we first met. This is the point in time of realistically being of the ability to accept wether or not it would be love, not via the first few months of love bombardment however much it 'felt' iconicly romantic or wishful thinking. Of course if I had got anywhere near to a sufficient enough time to experience what I went through, I wouldnt have enmeshed myself into a situation I couldnt walk out of.

It seems like I was victim of a strategy of - bombard him full on - overwhelm his senses as quick as possible, get him emotionally involved and secured. Thereafter, can act out and show true colours which he would otherwise in the space of sufficient time have discovered and likely discarded easily due to not being hooked in. When my ex cheated on me 3 months in, she had she thought someone else available should I walk away, she hedged her bets. To her surprise or not, I stayed with her and it was that juncture that I parlayed away all sense of self esteem. from there on i became a possession to be toyed with and I dont know where 3 years of my life went from that point on.

i guess I should feel angry rather than guilty, I should feel really angry with myself for having that level of feelings for someone who didnt care from the outset about anyones wellbeing or needs fulfillment but her own. It shouldnt be more complex evaluation then that, yet part of my intuition tells me it is - and thats the part that is hard to shake off. External issues cant change this away, sure I could blame the government why it doesnt institutionalise those with such severe mental illnesses, I wouldnt have encountered her if it wasnt for their choice to adopt a "care in the community" policy - yet that doesnt change the fact I did meet her, did get emotionally invested and now have to pick up the pieces of it as best I can.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2018, 04:40:52 PM »


But I have an even more fundamental question for you. Not wanting to learn more about human nature and become more self-aware is your right. You can make that choice. My question is, why do you want to encourage others to make this same choice?

Much closer to perfect... .

Interesting choice of words. Is this your image of yourself?

Is this society conducive to a life long 50 year marriage?

Again, interesting choice of words. Is this the primary measure of success?

One thought. In the 60's, sociologists saw the "family" as a functional necessity - survival. A bread winner, a child rearer, a nest for the young.  

Today's socialist's suggest that relationships, because things are so good in society, have evolved to be more about a partner that helps us with self actualization - achieve our goals.


Why do I encourage others?

A.  I think I learn by putting forth my view, and then over time if I come across another view that proves me wrong, and I can make logical sense of, I learn and take something away from it.

B. I think when people are enmeshed in a BPD relationship, they might come to a site like this and read a different section. Such as "improving a BPD relationship"

Once there, you are not thinking of running... The tone is not that you need to fix yourself. You are getting advice on how to make this relationship work. As if it is possible.  In a way that may add to the overall confusion... I am being gaslighted at home, and while asking for advice I learn I am doing and saying the wrong things to make it work.  So on 2 fronts, I am wrong. You are not being told "GTFO and away from that crazy woman. There is no hope. "

So when I briefly saw a therapist after to make sense of all this, it was like a weight was lifted when she pointed out "You are a compassionate , trusting, faithful and loving man. You are not the one with the illness... SHE IS. You cannot make her happy. You were taken in by a con and a trixter."


As I stated before, everyone on earth has some childhood issue. Is it worth the time to try and somehow fix every single possible issue and drive yourself insane in order to have a relationship? Ok, we picked wrong, but now learned what red flags are, lets move on and not make the same mistake again.

50 yr marriage

Yes, I do measure that as success.  Why else are we taking those vows?  if we don't really mean forever anymore, maybe we should change what we say.
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2018, 06:06:52 PM »

there is an old saying, bend the tree when it is young.

Ive left it a bit late into my mid-30s for "self-development" of a significant, structural fixing nature. If "self" development involves being persuaded to adopt a new persona more in line with someone elses perception of what the correct, appropiate or functional form I need to adapt to in order to put up with society. The rate of how it changes would involve forever needing a therapist because at the moment the accepted dogma of bringing up kids is diametric to how i was brought up, and would be clearly labelled as having suffered an 'abusive' childhood - back then it was just the norm.

what will next years dogma involve - being persuaded it is child neglect not to be the one to choose what colour wallpaper for the room but allow the child the right to do so - therefore avoiding the likelihood they will suffer distress and require future counselling.

Ive brought up my step son and had to go through the ridiculousness of various encounters; the head of his school who complained that he had "assaulted" the "victim" who had began to bully him to the extent he couldnt sleep at night. The end result, my step son was never bullied again, problem solved, and the victim might even have thought twice to do it to someone else in the future.

When I met my first girlfriend via the internet, in the mid 90s, my approach then was labelled as 'strange', geeky. It was a great relationship, it was trend setting. Now everyone does it.

I came to these boards to revert back to my self, not to be persuaded that I lived in some cocoon that needs to burst into a butterfly. Im happy and content with who I am, who I was, I encountered heartbreak to a level that brought about deep emotional pain, that pain has been dissipated by compassion and finding others who can relate. Do I want to go beyond that and start tweaking, getting bogged down into analysis paralysis a quest at finding some fault that may or not may exist, if it doesnt to be persuaded that it does, or that it must be there otherwise this wouldnt have even happened in the first place? Im not convinced although the nature of this relationship revealed aspects of my character that others had not - perhaps given me the experience not to be so trusting in future, that there are disturbed people out there to guard against.

Is it not simple enough to say I made an error in judgement, a mistake, have learned from it and will avoid it happening again? is that not sufficient enough?

So far on these boards ive had it implied that im a narcissist, even psychopath. If I was either of these things I would already have all the skills that wouldnt even have led me to this board. The way I see 'external forces' the mass media and other elements shaping society, it has became a breeding ground for narcissim and my ex with BPD seems sufficiently enabled to carry on what she is doing without much if any recourse for her actions.

It is travesty that the people I can relate to most in life are coincidentally the ones that seem always to be the most hurt. Is the cure for that that they adapt and become more like those who have hurt them in the first place, the first stage for that to happen is to neutralise words such as "abuse" discourage "anger" and promote a mentality that the abuser is also a victim.

Im not convinced and being labelled with a personality disorder of my own and an implied reluctance to change as a result, so be it, its too late to change 3 decades of values and personality, however 'dysfunctional' to this modern era some might deem fit to criticise.

On my 3rd visit to my therapist I was told "you would make a great father" - quite how she managed to get to that in sub-2hours of knowing me im not sure. i dont undervalue the need for therapists, trauma counsellors, but this generational era of calling for help for every nuance of lifes tribulations didnt happen in the past - why? closer knit families where more interaction between family members took place. More personal responsibility given at earlier ages, parents were role models, now replaced by pop culture figures. I wouldnt be here if I would have stuck firmly to the values already ingrained or followed my parents teachings. I dropped the ball, i tried to adapt, become more tolerant and new-era, thats the reason im here today. My parents would have characterised my ex as a mentally insane "rat". That might not be my opinion, but if I woud have followed their succinct evaluation I woud have spared myself 4 years of problems. Just like my step son avoided the potential of years of bullying at school by one pop into the snot locker of his tormentor.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2018, 08:32:41 PM »


I wouldnt be here if I would have stuck firmly to the values already ingrained or followed my parents teachings. I dropped the ball, i tried to adapt, become more tolerant and new-era, thats the reason im here today. My parents would have characterised my ex as a mentally insane "rat". That might not be my opinion, but if I woud have followed their succinct evaluation I woud have spared myself 4 years of problems. Just like my step son avoided the potential of years of bullying at school by one pop into the snot locker of his tormentor.

Skip asked why I would deter people from trying to better themselves.

I think sometimes  total bluntness works better than getting wrapped up into some mental vortex of trying to figure out how disordered people think. And how to appease them.

As Cromwell alluded to, if I had listened to the values I grew up with, and just asked my father for advice, he would have just said something like "Are you crazy? You slept with her within 2 hours? And she yells at you? Get rid of that trashy slut". Thats it... Solved... Period... Many years saved.

For me, that would have put things into perspective. And also saved me lots of time, pain, and energy...   I sometimes look at him like he is the old school, outdated person who doesn't know all the fancy terms, psychological jargon, etc. But what he did in life worked. 

But in current society, it is sort of "normal" for women to give their body to total strangers. Risking their eggs, pregnancy, disease etc. In that way, now, men and women are the same... But in the eyes of the law, courts, etc, women are of course still the protected sex.
It would make me a sexist to assume women who sleep with total strangers are somehow , de facto, disordered in one way or another. I lost my way.

So, when you encounter a BPD you may come to a site like this.  You are told how to validate her. How to fix the relationship. How to get her back. How to learn a new language. How to love. Mentally, it makes you think "Well this seems to be the route to go... I am doing something wrong. It is me". You spend more time trying to fix the relationship...

Then when it inevitably fails, because a BPD will not change, you enter the different section of the boards.  And it is more or less like, in plain English "ude, what the heck is wrong with you for being with this person. Fix yourself. You have issues ". 

And back to what Skip asked... .

I think it might be better for nons who got mixed up with a BPD to get back on the correct road by realizing they are not the problem. It was the disordered, manipulative, cheating liar they fell for. As opposed to walking around day to day thinking "How can I improve my co dependence/being to nice/not being nice enough/childhood issues/narcissism/ and apply this to my next relationship," wherein she will of course have her own set of issues, as we all do.

I also find it is not helpful to mention BPD, and include all types together.  Saying some are "high functioning", "low functioning", "male BPD" etc. Many of the people who might be giving advice date a hard working stable guy with mood swings, and conclude that is "male BPD", and it is all the same. Sometimes it seems a bit too PC to really give people good advice.












Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2018, 09:52:26 PM »

Is this a fair summary of your thoughts:

Essentially your primary purpose here is to critique the site, the professionals behind the healing platforms, the seniors here, who don't get it like you do - and set them all straight. 

Furthermore, you want to point out the the real issue is a societal one, largely with women, and good guys like yourself get caught it the trap because sex is irresistible. The world would be a better place if women of 2018 weren't so immoral.

Logged

 
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2018, 01:19:43 AM »

Husband321,

You sound angry and I totally get why. However, you encountered a woman who was disordered, that does not mean all women are sluts and society condones that behaviour. Should I look at every r/s I’ve ever had through the prism of my ex’s behaviour, or do I conclude  that she has certain traits that I am trying to understand and by doing so improve my own emotional intelligence?

Some people on these boards are not able to walk away from the pwBPD in their lives. There are people who are married with children, some who are parents and others who may have traits themselves and need to first become aware of the traits and then figure out how to deal with them while in a r/s with a disordered partner. There are complexities, it’s not a one size fits all situation. I don’t think for me behaving like John Wayne would allow me to exist in 2018 with any degree of success. While that kind of black and white, no nonsense behaviour may protect you from involvement with a disordered woman I would suggest those attitudes may preclude you from any kind of r/s at all in this day and age. Worst of all, that kind of finger pointing blame of the world and all the women in it approach effectively prevents you from ever examining yourself and what attracts you to a pwBPD. I’ve found the revelations about my own character the most enlightening of all. To carry the Hollywood analogy further, we all see ourselves as the hero in our own private movies of our lives but all heroes have a moral need and something lacking in their psychological make up that prevents them from fulfilling their desires. Just a thought.
Logged

Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2018, 08:23:40 AM »

Skip asked why I would deter people from trying to better themselves.

I think sometimes  total bluntness works better than getting wrapped up into some mental vortex of trying to figure out how disordered people think. And how to appease them.

Depends on our definition of 'bettering'.

I fully respect and value your opinion, and all id say is that part of being a confident self-assured person is to hold beliefs that cant easily be shaken.

Sure im not narrow minded, open to learning and persuasion. Ive picked up helpful advice, knowledge and information here - what I havent as of yet been persuaded and in fairness not many posts have amounted to challenging the thought that im structurally deficient of character or personality in some way that led me into this mess - as opposed to having made a mistake - due to the circumstances at the time.

I think its only to be expected that others havent went through the same thing and there is a danger there of transferring over their experience too much.

Even when it comes to cultural differences, im not aware most of the time where the person is that im trying to advise on a course of action, not aware of their religious beliefs, age, social class, financial sources, disabilities that might influence my advice. So for someone to act as if they seemingly know me enough to diagnose a deficiency that I need to work on - out of thin air - or just by default that I came to a support group - i put that down as saying more about them then it does me.

Anyway, we all have our own opinions and do our best to find the tools that work for ourselves whatever the goal is, getting better now or future relationships, being in a relatioship with BPD might be the common thread but beyond that, our scenarios are very much unique as much as ourselves. No Contact seems so simplistic as to be obvious, it was a tool I had to learn here and it has worked - and thats all I care about. Some people it doesnt, they need to maintain some contact at a distance - it helps them - again different people, lives and experiences. There is no panacea tool of one size fits all approach, only suggestions to consider take on board.
Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2018, 08:47:19 AM »

Cromwell,

I take your point but I would like to ask you a sincere question. Assuming  we are all coming on here for help and support, is not part of that support being encouraged to look at our own part in our respective situations?

The way I see it we can’t control our significant others’ behaviour so the only thing we can do is adjust our own behaviour accordingly to lessen the blow of the disorder we have been exposed to. In my case understand how my own emotional life was making things worse. That isn’t to say we are in any way to blame but rather we need the tools on here to make our lives a little more bearable. I suppose for me part of that tool kit is self examination to explore where I might unwittingly be exacerbating the problem. Aren’t we all learning emotional intelligence on here?

RF
Logged

Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2018, 09:02:38 AM »

Is this a fair summary of your thoughts:

Essentially your primary purpose here is to critique the site, the professionals behind the healing platforms, the seniors here, who don't get it like you do - and set them all straight.  

Furthermore, you want to point out the the real issue is a societal one, largely with women, and good guys like yourself get caught it the trap because sex is irresistible. The world would be a better place if women of 2018 weren't so immoral.



I would say I made a mistake , and that everyone has different experiences.  A different life.

I spent a lot of time "bettering myself".  Mainly , even before my son was born, how to be a good parent and everything that entails. And there is a lot involved with child psychology. I am very proud that I never had to even raise my voice yet at my seven yr old, and he is developing in a very happy way.

Spend a lot of time trying to be healthy.  Running a business.  Taking care of a home inside and out. Employees. .  Reading various books etc. Those  things all better myself.

The vulnerability I had, at the time, was that I had a lot on my plate as a single 50/50 dad.  So when I met this sexy woman who was a personal trainer, who claimed constantly she just wants a "simple" life, who was helping me constantly around the house, and who then was amazing with my son,and intelligent,  I was hooked.  

So I can see why I became hooked. if she was "real", I don't think I would have had any underlying issues that would prevent me from a long term relationship.

There is a lot about BPD on the net.  And sometimes the old caveman ideas seem to make you feel better, and heal quicker.  Someone might say "yeah man.  Those BPD girls are amazing in bed.  But they can't stop lying and manipulating. Just be glad she is gone".  As opposed to blaming myself , wondering why I trusted her, delving into my childhood, thinking I am too nice, or perhaps don't love enough etc.  Even being told to fee sorry for her.

Sometimes overanalyzing IS what keeps us with a BPD.  And then blaming ourselves also keeps us entrapped in a way.  





Logged
zachira
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Sibling
Posts: 2059


« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2018, 10:53:14 AM »

I have read many books on the so called bad men to avoid for relationships, and the books were not all that helpful in the long run. These books tend to focus on demonizing men, and making the women victims. What has helped me is to take a look at myself and how I am more vulnerable at certain times to making less healthy choices. As I have become more self aware and comfortable in my own my skin, I find myself attracting better people into my life, and the not so nice people just don't want to be around me because I am not such an easy target. Knowing who I am really helps me to see through others' facades. 
Logged

Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2018, 11:41:52 AM »

Cromwell,

I take your point but I would like to ask you a sincere question. Assuming  we are all coming on here for help and support, is not part of that support being encouraged to look at our own part in our respective situations?

The way I see it we can’t control our significant others’ behaviour so the only thing we can do is adjust our own behaviour accordingly to lessen the blow of the disorder we have been exposed to. In my case understand how my own emotional life was making things worse. That isn’t to say we are in any way to blame but rather we need the tools on here to make our lives a little more bearable. I suppose for me part of that tool kit is self examination to explore where I might unwittingly be exacerbating the problem. Aren’t we all learning emotional intelligence on here?

RF

Hi RF

Im in agreement here, I stayed around hoping she would change herself, that her behaviours were transitory - this was rooted in a lack of knowledge of the condition she had as well as the negative behaviour not being a continual theme but appearing - observed only through time as - cyclical.

If it had been a daily nightmare of crazy behaviour it would have been simple for me to disconnect, emotionally and practically, it wasnt so and it was only through experiencing it and trying to endure it over time that it eventually got to the point where I realised there is a pattern going on that seems destined to repeat itself, regardless of whatever I try to do.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2018, 08:50:56 AM »



We don't have to go back to the 1950's lifestyle to have values. We can have values and still meet people on Match.com or in the grocery.


Well, my premise was that we could avoid BPD women by simply getting to know a partner BEFORE having sex.  Would you agree?  Sure, some might slip through the cracks , but I do believe , by all accounts, a true BPD woman is very impulsive sexually.  I know in my case , it never would have even made it 3 consecutive non sexual dates as she NEEDS that instant bond, and would have found it elsewhere.

Men used to have to marry to have sex.  Then they would have premarital sex after dating.  Then perhaps even quicker sex, but without technology chances are they were sleeping with people they atleast knew, or someone they know, knew.

The scarier part in today's world is that if you meet a girl online, a total stranger, and have sex quickly, it is very likely she does that all the time. No matter what she says. So we can learn tools to validate them, prevent fights etc.  But preventing a BPD woman from getting that rush of excitement with total strangers  is nearly impossible.

So I do believe , if many of us guys just avoided the early sex/ lovebombing trap, we wouldn't be here.  Not all. But probably most.

And even if you meet a non disordered girl, who has sex quickly, then she will be attached.  It means something to her.  So similar to a BPD they will be all over you.  Texting you in the morning.  Wondering where you are.  Wondering if you are exclusive etc.  Talking about the future etc.  Are those red flags?  Or is that normal?
Logged
Starfire
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 84


« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2018, 10:08:48 AM »

Excerpt
Then it is presented that WE have all these issues for being trusting and not testing enough.

Who exactly is presenting this?  That is not a message I ever received from my therapist nor from this board.  You are generalizing based on your own personal experience.

Excerpt
Is it worth the time to try and somehow fix every single possible issue and drive yourself insane in order to have a relationship?

First, who is being driven insane?  Are you being driven insane and then projecting that onto the rest of us?  Second, who has implied that you must “fix every single possible issue?”  I don’t know that can be done.  If the question is really, “Is it worth the time to learn about myself so that I can have healthier relationships in the future?”  Then yes, a resounding yes, it is worth my time.  Especially considering that by relationships, I mean all of them.  Relationships with my coworkers, my friends, my child, and my family.  I value them all, and they are worth it.

Excerpt
Yes, I do measure that as success.  Why else are we taking those vows?  if we don't really mean forever anymore, maybe we should change what we say.

Do you mean the royal “we?”  You keep speaking in absolutes, using words like “always” and “every” and “we” as if there are no gray areas and your experience is universal.  If you’ve discovered your truth, that’s wonderful.  What do you really wish to achieve now by evangelizing that truth as if it is a universal one?  Some of us didn’t take any vows at all and have no intention of ever doing so.  It was your choice to marry and you chose the vows you stated.

Excerpt
"Are you crazy? You slept with her within 2 hours? And she yells at you? Get rid of that trashy slut".

Is this to say that she’s a trashy slut because she yells at you?  Or is she a trashy slut because she slept with you within 2 hours?  Because you were there, too.  If she’s a trashy slut, then so are you, dude.
 
Excerpt
I think it might be better for nons who got mixed up with a BPD to get back on the correct road by realizing they are not the problem. It was the disordered, manipulative, cheating liar they fell for.

You imply mutual exclusivity where none exists.  A non can be part of the problem while at the same time acknowledging that she fell for a disordered, manipulative, cheating liar.  Knowing that my ex was all of those things does not preclude me from learning something about myself.

Excerpt
And even if you meet a non disordered girl, who has sex quickly, then she will be attached.

Really?  How many non-disordered girls did you poll to come up with that generalization? 
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2018, 10:42:42 AM »



And even if you meet a non disordered girl, who has sex quickly, then she will be attached.  It means something to her.  So similar to a BPD they will be all over you.  Texting you in the morning.  Wondering where you are.  Wondering if you are exclusive etc.  Talking about the future etc.  Are those red flags?  Or is that normal?

I read a bit into narcissim, but just cursory search not sure of the academic validity, I think likely written by NPD 'survivors'. What was interesting was that it described this constant checking on your where-abouts as a feature of it. Id see this as a red flag, I couldnt care less what label to attach to it, but there certainly is something wrong with that heightened level of "checking" up, i find it in hindsight very controlling and related to a need to control rather than what I had seen it as initially - a highly interested friend, thereafter "missing me" constantly due to loving me. I see it in a different light now and would be cautious of it in future, it "felt" boundary push but I never conciously profiled it at as such, as with many things I gave the benefit of the doubt, trusted and saw it as part of being heavily loved by another.

Its not just the too quick sex id look out for either, I think my ex met me at a time where I gave her enough drama from my own life to keep her going. I was in a very different state to my normal personality, as I got better, came off drugs and alcohol, avoided dangerous and stress laden behaviour and moved towards offering both of us stability - this is when she not so much lost "interest" and started cheating to find it, its a case of this need for that drama, arguments - drug use anything at all that lifts the mood or detracts from that baseline of emptiness. I translated that at the time as a girlfriend who wanted a full-on exciting life, although again, it was an incorrect if understandable wrong conclusion to come to.

30% of population may have mental illness, it means 7 out of 10 do not. Of that 30% the bulk will be depression related. I still consider I met a statistical anomaly and learned from experience, its now a matter of just using that experience in the future coming across suspected types. Its not put me off marrying etc, but perhaps it saved me from what could have been an easy failed marriage. Thats the way I look at it Husband.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2018, 10:56:19 AM »

Who exactly is presenting this?  That is not a message I ever received from my therapist nor from this board.  You are generalizing based on your own personal experience.

First, who is being driven insane?  Are you being driven insane and then projecting that onto the rest of us?


I would say by overanalyzing people drive themselves insane. And it is more or less a metaphor.

You are thinking red flags in your previous  relationship were a guy who doesn't get annual physicals and who is also shy. Those  were your "red flags". To me that is over analyzing.

I am saying a red flag, perhaps larger, could be a woman who never saw you before in her life wanting to pull her pants down and have you inside of her. No worry about disease. Pregnancy etc. in that vulnerable position she could also be easily harmed in any ways.  It's more or less a dangerous thing to do for a girl.
Logged
JNChell
a.k.a. "WTL"
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Dissolved
Posts: 3519



« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2018, 10:57:01 AM »

This has been a very interesting thread. I find all perspectives here have validity in their own individual right.

When I showed up here, I was a real mess. I’ve gotten emotionally charged on here at times and responded in ways that I shouldn’t have to other members. I feel that it’s important at times to remember why we’re here. It’s to support each other. We’re all at different levels in our pain and healing. Importance should be placed on that here. Mindfulness.

Logged

“Adversity can destroy you, or become your best seller.”
-a new friend
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2018, 11:24:14 AM »

We are taking about learning and growing.

I would say as little as a couple years ago I would believe that having sex  quickly could be totally normal, and could lead to a great ltr.  

But I have found, that women who immediately are trying to drop their panties for any stranger have major issues.

A. Do they walk around that horny? Is that some type of issue?
B. Are they using sex to hook you to hang out more? Is that sort of BPD?
C did they truly bond with you that quickly? Is that BPD?
D are they addicted to quick hook ups and thrill seeking behavior?

I think most of us guys know it. None of us would tell our parents or close friends "yes mom. I met her on the internet and we had sex in 2 hours. She is a great girl". What do you think people who care about us would say?

I also think it almost always women calling out other women as sluts. It was my female friends who were like "you slept with her on the first date? Of course she is a slut"
Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2018, 11:56:25 AM »

The whole slut shaming culture is ridiculous. I’ve had sex quickly (bar one) with almost every woman I’ve had a r/s with. Many of them weee loyal, loving and exclusive. In my experience a lot of men are sluts and not to be trusted. I know men who are in long term relationships who have 3 or 4 other women on the go. How would you describe them?
Logged

Lady Itone
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 238



« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2018, 12:25:13 PM »

A gentle reminder, men:

Women enjoy sex too. If we go to bed with you early on in the relationship, it's not necessarily to "hook" you, and it's not necessarily because we don't respect ourselves, and we won't necessarily turn into a stage 5 clinger afterwards. Promiscuity can be a red flag in either gender, but just as often, it is not.

I go to bed with people I'm interested in because a good sex life is a priority to me. I'm not going to date someone for months only to find out they suck in the sack.

Excerpt
Quotes from Husband321
 
"I am saying a red flag, perhaps larger, could be a woman who never saw you before in her life wanting to pull her pants down and have you inside of her. No worry about disease. Pregnancy etc. in that vulnerable position she could also be easily harmed in any ways.  It's more or less a dangerous thing to do for a girl."

"I do believe , by all accounts, a true BPD woman is very impulsive sexually.  I know in my case , it never would have even made it 3 consecutive non sexual dates as she NEEDS that instant bond, and would have found it elsewhere."

"The scarier part in today's world is that if you meet a girl online, a total stranger, and have sex quickly, it is very likely she does that all the time. No matter what she says. So we can learn tools to validate them, prevent fights etc.  But preventing a BPD woman from getting that rush of excitement with total strangers is nearly impossible."

I assume you aren't literally dealing with "girls" but grown-up women. So, what is your personal responsibility in this? Would you tell a woman it is a red flag that a "boy" who never saw her before in his life is willing to pull his pants down and get inside her? Shouldn't he be just as worried about disease or getting someone pregnant, etc? What I'm saying is, if it's a red flag that SHE had sex before the 3rd date, isn't it a red flag that YOU had sex before the 3rd date?  

You loved this woman's sexiness. Nothing wrong with that. You use the word sexy to describe her constantly. So why then would you decide that such sexiness is a bad thing now that you're not benefiting from it anymore?

In the future, if you don't want to have sex early on, don't. There's plenty of women out there who prefer to wait. But if you're entering into a relationship with a sex goddess, you have to deal with the fact that very sexual women tend to be, well, very sexual. And maybe not only with you.

Peace.

Logged

Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2018, 12:36:17 PM »


In the future, if you don't want to have sex early on, don't. There's plenty of women out there who prefer to wait. But if you're entering into a relationship with a sex goddess, you have to deal with the fact that very sexual women tend to be, well, very sexual. And maybe not only with you.

Peace.


Yes. I agree. Sort of what I am saying. They may not be long term marriage material.

And I am not talking about a first date where you know the person. Or even after 2 or 3 dates.

I mean the internet stranger who is willing to drop panties immediately. They can be fun , if kept to that level.  Not long term material.

What do they say? Sexy, single or sane.  But you can only have 2.

A lot for this thread. But obviously male and females are vastly different in many ways. Unless there is a thriving "sugar mommy" industry, any regular guy can be a male prostitute for women because there is so much demand, and women court men.

Post an ad looking for sex as a woman . You will get 500 replies. No matter what you look like. Try that as a guy.  You might get one if lucky.

Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2018, 12:37:37 PM »

The whole slut shaming culture is ridiculous. I’ve had sex quickly (bar one) with almost every woman I’ve had a r/s with. Many of them weee loyal, loving and exclusive. In my experience a lot of men are sluts and not to be trusted. I know men who are in long term relationships who have 3 or 4 other women on the go. How would you describe them?

I would describe them as insecure.  Liars. Addicts. Flawed people.
Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 11517



« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2018, 12:51:27 PM »

What do they say? Sexy, single or sane.  But you can only have 2.

i dont know what has led you to that conclusion Husband321, but that seems like a reasonable place to dig.
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2018, 12:53:50 PM »

i dont know what has led you to that conclusion Husband321, but that seems like a reasonable place to dig.

Somewhat of a joke, but also a little truth behind it. I can't take credit for inventing that saying.
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2018, 02:55:33 PM »

Husband with regards to one way of solving the problem;

Venue

Where did you have sex on the first date with her? Her place, Yours?

If im looking for more than casual sex, want to build up rapport for potential longer term relationships, I always prefer to meet for lunch somewhere as the initial start.
Logged
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2018, 03:14:42 PM »

Husband with regards to one way of solving the problem;

Venue

Where did you have sex on the first date with her? Her place, Yours?

If im looking for more than casual sex, want to build up rapport for potential longer term relationships, I always prefer to meet for lunch somewhere as the initial start.

Yes. It was my house.  2 days later I went to her house to meet her mom.

I'm not trying to "blame her" for that.  I was definitely not turning her down and I played my part.
 
I think when I had my first gf I was 18. She was 16. I found out she kissed a guy a year prior.  Her and I dated for many months and didn't have sex.  But when I found out she kissed a guy, I felt pretty sick.

Then I find myself at the other end of the spectrum.  Thinking it is normal to have sex with a future partner within a couple hours.  Whom I never even met before.

So I am personally trying to figure out if there is some logic to "dating correctly", that would help weed out women with issues.  If that makes any sense. Or if there is a possible correlation. Logically I can see one.




Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2018, 03:55:46 PM »

Excerpt
A gentle reminder, men:

Women enjoy sex too. If we go to bed with you early on in the relationship, it's not necessarily to "hook" you, and it's not necessarily because we don't respect ourselves, and we won't necessarily turn into a stage 5 clinger afterwards. Promiscuity can be a red flag in either gender, but just as often, it is not.

I totally agree with this. I don't know anybody in my world who judges either gender for enjoying sex. Those kind of attitudes went out in the dark ages quite frankly!
Logged

Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2018, 03:59:38 PM »

Yes. It was my house.  2 days later I went to her house to meet her mom.

I'm not trying to "blame her" for that.  I was definitely not turning her down and I played my part.
 
I think when I had my first gf I was 18. She was 16. I found out she kissed a guy a year prior.  Her and I dated for many months and didn't have sex.  But when I found out she kissed a guy, I felt pretty sick.

Then I find myself at the other end of the spectrum.  Thinking it is normal to have sex with a future partner within a couple hours.  Whom I never even met before.

So I am personally trying to figure out if there is some logic to "dating correctly", that would help weed out women with issues.  If that makes any sense. Or if there is a possible correlation. Logically I can see one.

Ive had sex within 5 minutes of meeting some women, but the fact is, I advertised myself as wanting NSA hook ups and prior to meeting there will have been conversation , sexting phone calls, sharing of pictures as a pre-cursor. Perhaps this is where technology comes into play where it didnt from when you were younger? In that respect, things have changed broadly and this is common place - if that dating style is what you are after, which I was at the time. Its basically just a meat market and if in the midst of that you happen to start to like the woman and she likes you, it can develop into more from that - if both agree to it. To use the word 'natural' its along the lines of how if a guy wants an attractive woman one route is to become her friend first, and that can develop if she ends up liking his personality without necessarily liking his looks as much. This doesnt work as well in reverse for women befriending men.

So I highlighted "whom I never met before" - before I got into a long term relationship with my ex, she had been a casual sex partner for 6 months, and we kept in touch and got to know each other more. Its all up to you how much you want to do this - its equally ok to just say "see you next time", and get a text when she was available. There doesnt need to be any personal connection. In hindsight, this would have spared me what I went through - but no-one has a crystal ball, the sexual chemistry was great and the rapport otherwise was too. If she was open and honest, she would have in a reasonable space of time said she had BPD, some might say its none of my business, I think from everything ive experienced and learned as a result; it is a significant declaration to make to a potential long term relationship and let them have a choice of what they are getting into. Thats the part where I feel manipulated. I can understand to some extent her choosing to hide it - the stigma attached - if I would have put it into a search engine - found a board like this and not already been emotionally enmeshed - I wouldnt have even started with her.

Dating has to be open and honest from both sides, ive had nice women but the rapport from their side was bad; like trying to interrogate a prisoner of war - that could be explained by shyness - but those are the ones I have discarded - they are wasting time that can be spent dating elsewhere who will be open as a route to becoming intimate.

Sex can happen at any time and is not what id call a red flag, but i do fully appreciate where you are getting at, in the absence of having a real personality on offer, there is a need to over-compensate on the sexual part. Id say if you want to avoid being trapped like before, focus beyond the sex but dont feel bad about it, ensure more caution is taken to get to know the woman and get them to reveal sufficient personality and genuine rapport - as opposed to mirroring. I think it should be easy to do after what youve been through - I wouldnt worry about it. Again, the statistics of it happening to me again are low in the first place, if I was to encounter BPD or other troublesome disorders, ive done enough homework and had enough experience to screen them.

Someone else said about techniques to make us "less attractive as a victim" - thats not so much about changing our own personalities as it is external factors - you mentioned you had a lot of stress in your life that made you vulnerable at the time - for me that is a perfectly valid explanation. I was in a vulnerable position too - if I hadnt been, I would have exercised more care and caution than I was able to at the time.

Dont let it jade your outlook so that it puts broad sweeping generalisations - I think doing so can be a natural response to the trauma but in time a more realistic survey of the landscape returns.
Logged
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2018, 04:03:00 PM »

Excerpt
Yes. It was my house.  2 days later I went to her house to meet her mom.

I'm not trying to "blame her" for that.  I was definitely not turning her down and I played my part.

I think this is very telling Husband.

Excerpt
I think when I had my first gf I was 18. She was 16. I found out she kissed a guy a year prior.  Her and I dated for many months and didn't have sex.  But when I found out she kissed a guy, I felt pretty sick.

Then I find myself at the other end of the spectrum.  Thinking it is normal to have sex with a future partner within a couple hours.  Whom I never even met before.

Was alcohol involved in any of this? It was usually a factor for me when I was younger. It loosens the inhibitions for sure.

Excerpt
So I am personally trying to figure out if there is some logic to "dating correctly", that would help weed out women with issues.  If that makes any sense. Or if there is a possible correlation. Logically I can see one.

Love is a risk. You can never be sure of anybody but perhaps don't jump into bed in a couple of hours next time and see if it makes a difference.
Logged

WantToBeFree
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 66


« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2018, 12:35:18 AM »

I think you have a good theory, however, I think a lot of it is coming from a hindsight perspective.  It's soo easy to look back at what we did wrong, but so hard to do it right the first time through.

For me, my uBPD stbEx WAS a set up from a friend/family member.  In my case, this hurt me more.  I felt like he had to be a good guy if my really good friend was setting me up with her cousin who she adored and "vouched" for him so-to-speak.  Now my case may be a little unique because I have long since parted ways with my friend/cousin-in-law because she was very unstable and out there, and I guess I didn't really know her as well as I thought I did prior to becoming a part of her family.  And I am since speculating that perhaps she is BPD as well, or at least is dealing with a lot of mental health issues herself. 

However, I don't think her being mentally well would have really made a difference.  Family sticks their head in the sand, they don't always want to admit bad things about their loved ones, so she could have been perfectly stable and still set me up with him. 

Secondly, I fell in love with the idea of marrying my good friend's cousin.  I fell in love with the idea of it, the "cute story" it would make one day to tell our grandkids and I ignored red flags because of this.

I think it also depends on where you are in life.  When I met my stb ex, I was 28, a year out from a break up that I was still licking my wounds over, and THAT relationship had been the first thing I would consider to be a serious relationship in a very long time, so I was starting to worry I would never find the one.  My biological clock was ticking, I was afraid I'd never get married and have kids. As it was, my stb ex and I didn't get married till we were 31, started trying for a baby at 32, but due to infertility and losses, we didn't have our one and only living child until we were 34, almost 35.  For women that want to have kids, the pressure is very real to find someone and make it work, no matter how much your gut is telling you that this is wrong, and you should leave.

Plus, there is the plain old syndrome of having rose colored glasses on.  Things that we can see so clearly as being red flags and bad things now, we rationalized and excused because we liked/loved them so much and wanted to make it work.  My stb ex was abusive, but of course, his abuse was not evident and obvious right away, so by the time I recognized it for what it was, I was in too deep. 

Now that I am almost 40, I'm done having kids, I've had the big fairytale wedding and really have no desire to ever get married again, I really truly think I can go into any future relationship with my eyes wide open, spot any red flags right away, and get the hell out before it's too late.  I don't NEED to be with anyone, I have my daughter and that's all I need.  A man would just be someone to spend time with, have fun with and have someone to go places with, so anyone not worth their salt will be gone before they know what hit them.  BUT... .I say all that now, but who really knows when you are "in love" and so intoxicated by a person and so attracted to them.  It really is so hard to think clearly and view things objectively.  I hope and pray we can all go on to find happy, healthy relationships in the future. 
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2018, 08:23:37 AM »

Hi WantToBeFree

I share nowadays much of the same outlook, I can relate, dreams never materialised in the complete form that were hoped for - but the end result is having gone through and reaching a new perspective, for myself it led to knowing better of what I want for my future, being content with what I have now as a solid ground. Sounds to me that you overcame the emotions at the time and have a clear idea of what you want in the future, my own experience actually helped to cast new perspective on how realistic my dreams were in the first place. I undertand the pressures that might have over-ridden judgement - that biological clock, I had my own vulnerabilities that aggravated and influenced sound decision making - they have been valuable learning experiences that in time I have become grateful for, they enhance the future as opposed to becoming entrenched in past regrets. Thanks for sharing what you went through.
Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2018, 09:05:21 AM »

As a side note, I think very few women are like men in that they can admit they cheated.  Men might be like "yeah.  I was dumb. I screwed up". Where as most women will not be able to do that.  It will always be the husbands fault that drove them to cheat.

FACT CHECK Studies show that women are far more likely to confess affairs then men.
Logged

 
Husband321
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 370


« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2018, 09:36:13 AM »

FACT CHECK Studies show that women are far more likely to confess affairs then men.

"My husband was really abusive, cheated on me constantly, and ignored me,  so I had to get away".

Is that confessing an affair? Not even sure what that means. Confessing to who? When? Why? Is that taking ownership of the affair too?

I am talking about the woman who destroys a family through cheating. I have never once heard "I really messed up by cheating.  It is my fault "

Would be interesting to read exactly what these studies mean

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1211104/Think-men-unfaithful-sex-A-study-shows-WOMEN-biggest-cheats--theyre-just-better-lying-it.html
Logged
WonderingGirl

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 27


« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2018, 10:06:33 AM »

I read a lot of these stories, and often times Non's seem to be hard on themselves.  Blaming themselves for being with a BPD and putting up with so much, for so long... And then even feeling bad about it afterward... .And longing for them at times...

In my view it is quite natural to fall for a BPD.

A. Meet a girl you find attractive.
B. Instant sex. or rather quickly.
C. Mirroring
D. Promises, mixed with all sorts of lies about their past, present,  and who they are. 

So naturally, it is easy to succumb and fall for someone who is an expert, consciously, or subconsciously, at acting like this.

It is also natural to try and help, or try and fix a relationship.

It is also natural to experience loss and deep sadness when they are gone... THEY are the ones with the mental disorder. Not us.

So, what if we dated how people dated long ago?

1.Has anyone here been fixed up with a BPD from a friend, or family member?

2. Has anyone here actually got to know a BPD on several dates BEFORE anything sexual happened?

3. Has anyone here asked questions about the past, family, and parental relationships of their BPD long before sex occurred?


If I had to bet, I would guess most people with a BPD met them on the internet. At a bar. Often times someone new in town. A complete stranger, and they proceeded to have sex with them quickly.  During which time our reptilian brain kicks in, and we look past everything to get sex, love, attention etc.

So I don't think it is any deep psychological problem us non's have, or anything that needs to be "fixed', other than how we choose to date and find a relationship.

I made the same mistake. I think if I would have just went on 5 to 10 non sexual dates, (probably 2), just having normal conversations, all of her stories would have made no sense, it would be easy to tell she is a liar, and all of this would have been avoided.


 

Hi,
I have been reading through your post, and I admit I still have more to read. But I have found it to be really interesting, and I can certainly see some connections, but like some I want to share my story too.

I did meet SO online, We talked for months online before we met. I kind of egged on more sexual stuff then he did. Not once in our talking did he ever try to talk sexual to me. He told me a whole ton of information about his life. All of which turned out to be true, and not exaggerated or anything. He was more nervous then me, and that is saying a lot. I knew he was on house arrest for a previous domestic (one time thing), but due to the reasoning my friends egged me on. They did not think the domestic for the reason he had it was that bad. It was the truth, at least.  He has never really lied to me, that I know of. I met his dad the first night we met. We did have sex the firs time we met. We spent about 12 hours together. We spent every night I did not have my son together, and eventually that progressed to every night, and me kind of officially moving in.

I knew who family sucked, as I saw it with my own eyes. Nothing was ever hidden from me. I knew of his past. as time went on, He was the one who said he loved me first, I was still to anxious to be there. He had mostly depression spouts our first year together, and im just seeing the anger recently. He tells me he is a bad person. He is very self aware of his actions, but I am the one who choose not to walk away. He is pretty high functioning BPD compared to some I have read on the board though.
Logged
Cromwell
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1856



« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2018, 10:09:56 AM »

42.5% of people know that 78.6% of statistics, studies and academic research is 55.3% absolutely correct.

Id pay to be an observer on the day my ex would get a telephone survey on cheating and what her genuine responses would be.

If the goal is pre-set to try and find fault, there is a treasure trove of resources out there to present as validation. It always works both ways though.
Logged
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8427


« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2018, 10:18:56 AM »


Husband321, that is a color article from the Daily Mail.

The title says: A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats.

The data cited in article: Affairs, 20 per cent for men, 15 per cent for women

The expert cited in article: He was just arrested for harassing his girlfriend who has been secretly cheating on him. As for the study - there was none. The "expert" has no study/work in this field.  
https://www2.mmu.ac.uk/hpsc/our-staff/browse/department-of-psychology/profile/index.php?id=814
Logged

 
RomanticFool
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1063


« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2018, 12:50:16 PM »

Husband321,

If you’re basing your entire philosophy of women being cheats on an extremely right wing newspaper’s perspective, I suggest your views may be slightly skewed. It’s like going to Fox News for objectivity.

RF
Logged

once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 11517



« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2018, 05:10:19 PM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its posting limit and has been locked.
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2021?

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2020 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
40days_in_desert
Ahquei3s
alphabeta
Amethyste
Angie59
ArtistGuy70
AskingWhy
assumezero
At Bay
Avanzando
Baglady
Beneck
bigredneck
Bittlecat
Boll Weevil
calmboom
Cat Familiar
Chosen
Dnmtnbkr
drained1996
Eggshellsbroken
FaintTheGoat
FaithHopeLove
FindingMe2011
Forgiveness
freespirit
GaGrl
ggGreg
Gift to Myself
gotbushels
Harri
hopeandchoices
I Am Redeemed
Imatter33
Jazzy48
jdc
jones54
Jonthan
Katrinalove
Kwamina
l8kgrl
LLgreen
Longterm
lorymac
lovenature
loyalwife
lucidone
Manifest32f
MariannaR
Meridius
Methuen
mgirl
Minttea
Mommydoc
Mutt
narcdaughter2
needPeace
NorseWoman
Notgoneyet
oceanheart
oftentimes
Omega1
once removed
Only Human
otherlife
palynne
PeacefulMom
Pedro
pest947
podsnapG
ProudDad12
pursuingJoy
Radcliff
Raul
Recycle
Resiliant
Rev
Rosheger
Sad4Her
SamwizeGamgee
Sandalwood
SBBayArea
SCM
SerendipityChild
SES
Silverhope
Skip
songbirdtwo
StillStuck
Swimmy55
Teno
townhouse
truthbeknown
turtleengine501
Ventak
vinnie77
Violet00
wavewatcher
wendydarling
WhatJustHappened?
Whichwayisup
whirlpoollife
Wicker Man
WindofChange
worn_out
WTL
zachira
zaqsert

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!