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Author Topic: Could all of these problems be avoided simply by how we date?  (Read 1883 times)
Husband321
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« on: August 01, 2018, 12:47:08 PM »

I read a lot of these stories, and often times Non's seem to be hard on themselves.  Blaming themselves for being with a BPD and putting up with so much, for so long... And then even feeling bad about it afterward... .And longing for them at times...

In my view it is quite natural to fall for a BPD.

A. Meet a girl you find attractive.
B. Instant sex. or rather quickly.
C. Mirroring
D. Promises, mixed with all sorts of lies about their past, present,  and who they are. 

So naturally, it is easy to succumb and fall for someone who is an expert, consciously, or subconsciously, at acting like this.

It is also natural to try and help, or try and fix a relationship.

It is also natural to experience loss and deep sadness when they are gone... THEY are the ones with the mental disorder. Not us.

So, what if we dated how people dated long ago?

1.Has anyone here been fixed up with a BPD from a friend, or family member?

2. Has anyone here actually got to know a BPD on several dates BEFORE anything sexual happened?

3. Has anyone here asked questions about the past, family, and parental relationships of their BPD long before sex occurred?


If I had to bet, I would guess most people with a BPD met them on the internet. At a bar. Often times someone new in town. A complete stranger, and they proceeded to have sex with them quickly.  During which time our reptilian brain kicks in, and we look past everything to get sex, love, attention etc.

So I don't think it is any deep psychological problem us non's have, or anything that needs to be "fixed', other than how we choose to date and find a relationship.

I made the same mistake. I think if I would have just went on 5 to 10 non sexual dates, (probably 2), just having normal conversations, all of her stories would have made no sense, it would be easy to tell she is a liar, and all of this would have been avoided.
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2018, 12:57:07 PM »

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'll start with confessing my sordid history. :/ I had met my exBPD fiancé previously but knew him only slightly. We ran into each other at a bar one night and ended up hooking up. Saw him again a few nights later and same thing. Fantastic sex, love bombing, early intimacy and saying he loved me. And so on, you know how that story goes... .

I'm actually reading a book recommended by my T called Boundaries in Dating, since I have boundary issues--who knew? It has a Christian focus, which may turn some off, but it makes great points about establishing and protecting your boundaries, your values, etc., in the dating relationship. I haven't gotten to where they talk about sex yet, but since it's a Christian book, I can imagine what that chapter will say, . Still, great points about getting to know a person before getting too involved, finding out what their values are, being sure that you don't compromise yourself in any way within the relationship. 
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2018, 04:24:02 PM »

I dated my ex for 3 months before we were physically intimate.  I didn't keep count of the number of dates, but we saw each other at minimum twice a week, sometimes more and often for several hours at a time.  

The sex plays a part, definitely, but based on my own personal experience, not having sex early in the relationship didn't change the outcome.  The love bombing and idealization was there.  I still ignored or discounted or simply plain didn't see the red flags.  He was an exciting man. I didn't have reason to question any of the things he was telling me about his past.

That said, I do think things changed after sex.  That's when his jealousy and possessiveness really kicked into high gear.  It was as if that was the one thing left for him to accomplish to feel like he had me on the hook.  And I guess he did because it took 2 years for me to be free of him.
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2018, 04:47:35 PM »

If I had to bet, I would guess most people with a BPD met them on the internet. At a bar. Often times someone new in town. A complete stranger, and they proceeded to have sex with them quickly.  During which time our reptilian brain kicks in, and we look past everything to get sex, love, attention etc.

So I don't think it is any deep psychological problem us non's have, or anything that needs to be "fixed', other than how we choose to date and find a relationship.

I made the same mistake. I think if I would have just went on 5 to 10 non sexual dates, (probably 2), just having normal conversations, all of her stories would have made no sense, it would be easy to tell she is a liar, and all of this would have been avoided.


spot on. Hooked up online, never knew her at all via anyone else, sex within 2 hours of meeting.

But that is the type of relationships I was after at the time, no strings attached and I had no problems, there was also no 'apparent' problems with her, until a commited relatonship started. What I find valuable is that there was a complete lack of background information to go on, I recall early on saying to her before the relationship "I like that you always want to be with me, but find it hard to believe that you have no other friends". To which she told me thats just how it is. That should have been a possible red flag for me but I didnt take it on board - I was happy to be with this fun-loving, highly attractive, sex bundle of joy to the point of being blinkered to all else. I never suspected any reasons to lie but if I had done some cursory background checking, her backdrop was one of a litany of haphazard, chaotic relationships that I was just the new best source that came along.

I wasnt so much hooked in by the sex to the point of it being something I couldnt/didnt get elsewhere, what I got hooked on was a complete seductive package that really should have been screaming "too good to be true". I dont think I would do anything different in terms of dating in the future except to keep those boundaries firm and not let someone transgress them because id rather give them the benefit of the doubt each time. In short, she displayed what I look for in dating and relationships; great rapport. The problem is, it wasn't genuine rapport it was expertly staged and learning from the condition I understand how easy it was to fall for it. Again, healthy boundaries would have saved the day and will in future; I wouldnt hesitate to go No contact quickly in the future regardless of how much I like/lust for the girl.

In summary, there isnt really anything I would re-write the dating rule book, just that I was led off course and dropped my values and rules and paid the price for it that time around. The worst part is, she wasnt even very good at being manipulative, I just shrugged it off as 'she must just not want to feel embarrassed or be put in a difficult situation so is lying instead. I couldnt differentiate between lies designed to make someone appear more desirable than they are, than those that lead to serious issues downstream.
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2018, 05:49:06 PM »

Conclusion:

      No one on this website has any issues to work through

Proof:

      We all had sex too early in the relationship, and our partner mirrored us.

Are these connected?

BTW. 29% of the population has a mental illness or addiction. 72% of our members have depression. A high percentage of members here have attachment issues. Many members tossed common sense to the wind when we were shown love.

Are you suggesting that all these things happened to us because we had sex too soon?
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Husband321
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2018, 08:27:02 AM »

Cromwell, yes exactly.

I had sex with her also within a few hours of meeting. And yes.  It wasn't the "sex", it was the entire seductive package. That's a good way to put it.  And also similarly, she was not good at being a manipulator at that point, more or less I was not wanting to dig and play detective as it was already so much fun.

Skip,

I didn't say NOBODY on the site has issues.  Or that every case is identical.

I would say :

A. The dynamic between a female non and a male BPD is much different than the dynamic between a male non and a female BPD. Too much to go into for the purpose of this thread, but it might be a good topic for another. So it's hard to comment on those.

B. It seems relationships with a BPD do not get better unless the BPD gets help, so it might be good to look at prevention of being involved with these types at all.

So for a non who has not dated a BPD before, I am not sure which part of the process makes them to blame, or point out character flaws within themselves, other than dating incorrectly.

A. An attractive girl wants you sexually, and she also seems to want what you want through conversations.  That's normal to have sex with her.

B. As the relationship develops, you start to notice issues she might have. You already are feeling rushes of dopamine, and she feels great to be around. So it's normal to stay. In most relationships people always put their best foot forward initially. It's very normal to want to fix things, and also believe the things you are being told by your lover are true.

C. She discards you.  She never had the same level of feelings she professed too. For any normal human this also hurts, can cause depression, and sadness.

I think if someone is dumping someone at the first sight of problems they probably have their own, worse set of issues.

So no, I don't believe simply because you fell for a BPD means that you have issues to fix. Many of us learn nothing from it all, other than how to be more careful in the future.  It's biologically normal to become attached, to a degree, after sex and dating.

Was it my fault that my ex was abused as a child? Or abandoned. Or that she became a compulsive liar and cheater long before me?  

What is my fault is that I let my guard down, did not know people like her exist, and I should have gotten to know her first, BEFORE all the sex and lovebimbing, as that can fundamentally change the mindset and clear thinking abilities of any man.  

Let's also not forget that they can hide things very well. It a toxic mix of lies through omission, love, sex, "poor me", not even knowing if she is BPD, and what to believe or what not to.

BPD women are usually very impulsive sexually. So I do believe, in most cases, simply getting to know someone, for a time period, would greatly reduce the number of "victims" of BPD women before it is too late.  As that is their main hook.  Great sex, lies, Love bombing. I don't think many of these BPD women would even want to stick around for a series of non sexual getting to know you dates.


I think if most of us look back at the beginning, us men atleast, and realize we probably overlooked many red flags as that is what we are biologically programmed to do as humans once we are having sex for the sake of procreation.

Not that we are consciously wanting to procreate, but that's how we are subconsciously wired. I wouldn't want to be "that guy" who can repeatedly have sex with a woman and NOT form a bond. To me that would be abnormal.






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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2018, 12:39:21 PM »

I think if most of us look back at the beginning, us men atleast, and realize we probably overlooked many red flags as that is what we are biologically programmed to do as humans once we are having sex for the sake of procreation.

Not that we are consciously wanting to procreate, but that's how we are subconsciously wired.

Very creative.  

Do you think it would help to read up on relationship psychology to help with  your various theories on why we all have nothing to learn from these experiences?

I know pointing out the disconnect in your theory doesn't help, so I won't. But there is a trend in most of these ideas of causal fallacy - "when railroad guard gates go down, it makes trains come" - type of thing.

I think adding more knowledge would help you craft better theories.

So for a non who has not dated a BPD before, I am not sure which part of the process makes them to blame, or point out character flaws within themselves, other than dating incorrectly.

Trying to increase our understanding of human behavior, or become more self-aware of why we things that cause us heartache, or why these relationships take us down, is not about blame and character flaws.

It's about learning. Growing.

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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2018, 01:11:46 PM »

Very creative.  

Do you think it would help to read up on relationship psychology to help with  your various theories on why we all have nothing to learn from these experiences?

I know pointing out the disconnect in your theory doesn't help, so I won't. But there is a trend in most of these ideas of causal fallacy - "when railroad guard gates go down, it makes trains come" - type of thing.

I think adding more knowledge would help you craft better theories.

Trying to increase our understanding of human behavior, or become more self-aware of why we things that cause us heartache, or why these relationships take us down, is not about blame and character flaws.

It's about learning. Growing.



I have learned, that if looking for a partner, to take things slower. Which is what I am saying by not jumping into bed with girls you don't know.

So that to me would be learning and growing.

Have I learned anything that would lead to a successful relationship with a BPD? No.

Do I need a massive amount of introspection wondering why I fell for a hot girl, while having great sex, that was  very seductive with a very good story? No it could happen to anyone. 

Are you saying great sex with a hot girl who professes love does not cloud a mans jusgmebt?  I think it has throughout all of history.




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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2018, 02:29:51 PM »

Been seeing a woman for a year.  She is 31.  I am 40.

I was her soulmate etc.   helped her through many things including a custody battle.  She kept pushing for engagement.  Marriage.  Living together.  

In the past at times she would go cold.  Go back to her ex (for the kids) which would last 2 days.  

I looked past this.  She is attractive.  Loving.  Wealthy.  And I got sucked in.

We married 3 weeks ago.  I sensed a change.  She just became rude.  istant.  Nagging.  Condescending etc.

So we bickered for a couple of day.  Sunday night we made up and were looking for a new home together.  A month earlier she got a tatto "property of" with my name on her ass.

I got to work Monday and she is texting me she is planting a garden at our house etc.   I get home and she is gone.  Took all her stuff.  Put it in a storage garage.  Got a hotel

I have learned, that if looking for a partner, to take things slower.

Do I need a massive amount of introspection wondering why I fell for a hot girl, while having great sex, that was very seductive with a very good story? No it could happen to anyone.

It sounds like you don't "need a massive amount of introspection".
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2018, 05:36:25 PM »

It sounds like you don't "need a massive amount of introspection".

Correct.  I had a very attractive woman getting my name tattooed and giving me very large sums of money to be with her. Professing the deepest love, then vanishing.  It was madness

I feel that situation is 1 in a million and I didn't really learn much from it. Other than to take things slower. If every woman was her I would definitely need some major help in how to have a relationship and be happy in one.

As of now I have a sane gf and business, life, parenting is back to normal and doing very well.
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2018, 08:15:38 PM »

in the state of mind I was in at the time, the worlds expert on BPD could have given me a flowchart to go through during the relationship, I was too apathetic at the time to care, too arrogant and careless to rely on anyone else's judgement but my own - all my past relationships were fine, manageable and dealt without anything near that level of drama, destruction and intensity, yet I was unwittingly out of my depth and that can only be explained by being vulnerable at the time and being in the circumstanes where I was receptive to boundary crossing behaviour. Infactuation was a factor, a strong one, but far from being a pillar that kept it going.

The one thing I would change if I come across anomalies during dating is that if red flags arise and im not sure wether they should be relationship breaker and automatic discards, is communication. I regret not being more assertive and forcing open some dialogue, asking to explain confusing statements. Sure, she could have just clammed up as a result but that in itself would have been enough for me to lose interest, the dissipation of the "great rapport" that presented itself as a result of not discussing things that should have been, regardless of how uncomfortable they were subject matter wise.

if I find myself 'in love' in the future, and there is a tattoo that says "property of Cromwell", theres going to be a discussion expected following the themes of "possessiveness" and "objectification" alongside  idiosyncratic "romantic gestures". Failure to participate in such discussion is failure to progress the relationship further, and no guilt will be on my part as to the pain involved in laser removal procedure.

its easy to say good rapport and good company, when no communication takes place during red flag moments. I think if a person has sufficient assertiveness and emotionally well adjusted, it takes far more than just amazing sex to sweep aside all other sensibilities.


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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2018, 10:52:28 PM »


its easy to say good rapport and good company, when no communication takes place during red flag moments. I think if a person has sufficient assertiveness and emotionally well adjusted, it takes far more than just amazing sex to sweep aside all other sensibilities.



Of course... .

Let me put it this way...

If we didn't have sex with these women within a couple hours, and planned a date down the road,  odds are a few things would have happened.

A. They would have met someone else to love  bomb off the internet.
B. They would flake out on the next date
C. We would spend time talking to them, and probably realize things are just off.
D. They wouldn't have that opportunity to start texting how they miss you, how much they like you, etc.

They can bring an intensity that is overwhelming, and simply not normal. It's much harder to have serious conversations and think of red flags once in the midst of that.




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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 03:33:46 AM »

I dated my ex for 3 months before we were physically intimate.  I didn't keep count of the number of dates, but we saw each other at minimum twice a week, sometimes more and often for several hours at a time.  

The sex plays a part, definitely, but based on my own personal experience, not having sex early in the relationship didn't change the outcome.  The love bombing and idealization was there.  I still ignored or discounted or simply plain didn't see the red flags.  He was an exciting man. I didn't have reason to question any of the things he was telling me about his past.

That said, I do think things changed after sex.  That's when his jealousy and possessiveness really kicked into high gear.  It was as if that was the one thing left for him to accomplish to feel like he had me on the hook.  And I guess he did because it took 2 years for me to be free of him.

We waited 3 months too, I’m not sure it helped. The first 3 months were amazing. When it became intimate things changed rapidly and the first red flags appeared. By that point I was so in love she could have had a 10ft red flag sticking out of the top of her head and I wouldn’t have noticed.
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2018, 05:36:52 AM »

Husband321, there's a lot of truth in your premise. Waiting a bit allows the friendship to develop and stay out front of the passion.

Casually dating several people at once is helpful so we don't put all our eggs in the basket of one person we barely know. A lot of these r/s seem to become exclusive very quickly.

Meeting people through friends is also better, whether a fix up or more spontaneously, so we have people in common and can ask about them. It's easy for people to deceive through internet. When we do meet people through internet sites, we can hold off on intimacy until we meet their friends and family... .you pick up on a lot about someone based on their relationships with others.

There is no guarantee, we still have to keep our eyes open and trust our gut, but why not stack the odds in our favor by having as much insight into a person's character as possible?

The other part of the equation is, know your boundaries and if they're not honored, take it seriously and react quickly. People who don't respect others' boundaries are usually this way from the get-go.

These ideas not only help avoid overly dramatic or destructive r/s, they are good for assessing long term compatibility... .assuming that's what someone would like.
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2018, 06:55:10 AM »

Husband321, there's a lot of truth in your premise. Waiting a bit allows the friendship to develop and stay out front of the passion.

Casually dating several people at once is helpful so we don't put all our eggs in the basket of one person we barely know. A lot of these r/s seem to become exclusive very quickly.


Yes.  I think when sex occurs quickly several things change.

A. Atleast for me, you lose the ability to date others. Hard to be having sex with a girl and tell her you are dating others.

B. Things are speeded up. Being in love.  Wanting to live together. Commitment. She talked about living together on the second or third date.

C. I also had a nonchalant feeling about the whole situation. "Well things don't make sense, but the sex is great and she is a lot of fun"

D. Dating should be a bit like an interview where you go over important topics to see if you are compatible.  "o you want kids. Tel me about your family.   Tell me about your friends. What are your career goals. What happened in your last marriage.  " etc.    Not all just "wow.  I love you.  I never met anyone like you.  The chemistry is amazing. Never have I felt like this before" etc.

Looking back I can see how low my boundaries were. Even knowing better, I totally got swept up into this mix of love, sex, commitment, with barely knowing the person. 

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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2018, 09:05:01 AM »

By boundaries, I assume you mean life values as per... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I think you are on to something here.

You didn't just date her, you married her after a year of chaos. The red flags were were blatant, as you have said:

She lost custody of her own children.
She ran back to her ex husband a several times during the relationship.
The stability of your parenting was broken.
Your relationship was rocky.
Your life was on a roller coaster.

You liked "sex, hot, money".  You accepted all that for "sex, hot, money".  So much, you asked her to marry you. She moved out a few weeks after you married.

Surely you have the opportunity to see who she was, what her values were, how she handled stress, how she affected your life.

I think the lesson, as you say, is that you valued "sex, hot, money" much more than character, stability, intelligence, partnership, compassion.

This is not a uncommon theme as you pointed out earlier. We have all seen this in the young cute country girl who goes to the big city and gets caught up up in the stripper trade. Or the aspiring actresses who goes to the Hollywood film scene or LA music trade or New York dance... .

But is it the stripper club, Hollywood, LA music or New York dance that is the problem? Is it the bottle of beer?

Or is it the person who imbibes.

The same way, it is the general dating protocols or police policy (prior thread) or modern social norms (prior thread) that cause our problems. The theme in all of your threads is to put the relationship problems off on universal forces that you have no control over. In this thread that force is your reptilian brain. In other threads it has been social policy, or modern societal norms.

We don't have to go back to the 1950's lifestyle to have values. We can have values and still meet people on Match.com or in the grocery.

The true commitment we have to our values is clear when we see how we acted when they are tested.

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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2018, 10:17:18 AM »

By boundaries, I assume you mean life values as per... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I think you are on to something here.

You didn't just date her, you married her after a year of chaos. The red flags were were blatant, as you have said:

She lost custody of her own children.
She ran back to her ex husband a several times during the relationship.
The stability of your parenting was broken.
Your relationship was rocky.
Your life was on a roller coaster.

You liked "sex, hot, money".  You accepted all that for "sex, hot, money".  So much, you asked her to marry you. She moved out a few weeks after you married.


It's always difficult to explain an entire relationship within paragraphs.

A. When we met she didn't have money.  She inherited about a million from father.
B. She proposed to me.  Came home from work and she got me a ring.
C. She never "lost" custody of kids.  She left.  (This was spun as being a martyr as he had a better support network and she didn't want his money)
D. She was amazing with my son.  One of the reasons I also looked past red flags.
E. She was a reknowned personal trainer.  Excellent at her job. (When she had a business)
F. Her supposed dream was to live on a farm with a nuclear stable family.

Now here is the thing.  For someone like you, or most people on these boards,it's blatantly obvious and you are BPD experts.

Many nons never even heard of this.  So we are blindsided and not fully prepared.

Of course, after she proposed and left I didn't want to take her back. She returns the next day to have sex, explain she can't live with someone etc. 2 weeks later she wants to put her entire inheritance in my name and I just give her a debit card as she spends too much money and it is ruining our love. So I took her back.


And on top of that she was very intelligent , but highly
Manipulative.   After our final break in December she befriended her ex husbands new wife, convinced her that her husband is bad, and they ended up getting a place together.  Until she also painted her black. But she was very adept at convincing people that she is this sweet, kind woman who just had bad luck with men.

So back to the main point.  Of course 2 nons can have sex on a first date.  All I am saying is that if I was not sexual with her, I would have seen things more clearly.  as would probably most of us on here.

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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2018, 10:43:54 AM »

For someone like you, or most people on these boards,it's blatantly obvious and you are BPD experts.

I'm not an expert. I'm just a member who has been here longer than you.    I never heard of BPD until I was 3.5 years into a relationship.  My ex was bigger than life in many ways and she was an incredible person. She also had demons.

I thought at first that I was blindsided. That I was reasonable in my actions.

In time I came to realize that 29% of the population is struggling with a mental illness or substance issues. I also came to realize that my understanding of human nature was woefully inadequate to navigate this world.

As I improved my understanding of human nature, I came to see that I wasn't playing the "A" game myself. That what I was looking for was a bit superfiscal. That conflicts in my life could be reduced if I took the time to understand people better. And maybe the hardest thing - that my ability to love, as good as I though it was, was not all that good. I could be a much better friend and lover.

This took a "massive amount of introspection" to use your words and many of us are on that journey. The "experts" here are not experts. They are graduates of their own personal inventories - self awareness.

It's not for everyone. But those that have made the journey swear by it. It has changed my life.

But, it's not for everyone.
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2018, 11:05:21 AM »

I firmly believe we are attracted to people that are where we are in terms of emotional maturity at the time of the attraction, and that we have a range of emotional maturity within ourselves at any given time. So when we are on the low end, we might be more susceptible to being with an unsafe person, and when we are feeling more grounded and comfortable in our own skin, we would be more likely to be attracted to a more mature person and reject someone who is emotionally unstable.
I have been in therapy for years, and I truly believe that I cannot blame the men I got into bad relationships with. I choose each and every one of them, and stayed in the relationship because of who I was at the time. As I keep improving my sense of self and values, I find that my relationships change with everybody, in that I attract better people in all areas of my life, and become more wary of people that are phony: a put on niceness in the beginning that does not seem real that I see if I am paying attention. My best friends are all people that I have had major disagreements with and we known how to disagree without ruining the friendship.
As the child of a mother with BPD, I know my weak point comes when life is really difficult when I tend to look for people to love me that are similar to the mother and family members who scapegoated and rejected me. My high point, which is most of the time now, is making friends with people who are comfortable with themselves and have integrity, and this can be challenging as I have to bring my very best self to the table which I can usually do because these type of people value harmony not drama like people with BPD.
I am thinking about dating, and if I do, it is going to be with someone I feel could be a good friend. Yes, I am attracted sometimes to the bad boys, and the sex could have been exciting and fun, and the emotional price is not worth it. I agree in taking time to know a person, and really seeing the person for who he is, and not inventing some wild fantasy about this person that does not exist, which can happen when there is a hot sexual attraction and not a real caring connection based on mutual respect for the others feelings. Women are lucky in that we can fall in love with someone we were not initially attracted to physically. My understanding is that most men usually know whether they like a woman from the beginning and their feelings are not likely to change, which makes the slow approach to dating harder for most men.
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2018, 11:10:39 AM »

There is a talk of not reading into 'external' forces and I think I grasp the concept behind it.

Yet there are sociological forces out there that have enabled my ex as much as I have done.

If we were back in the 60s and to commit adultery would have the same level of social stigma and pariah status as it once did, pwBPD would have to double-think to restrain that urge/impulse.

urge/impulse trait does not equal being an automoton that just couldnt help behaving a certain way, and use a disorder as an excuse for it.

Society is changing rapidly - who doesnt have some sort of label nowadays, apparently I have a PD too, apparently im mildly depressed.  I like Husband incorporating some of that into discussion, Howard Becker wrote on Labelling theory, to crudely summarise; getting a label ascribed promotes the likelihood of acting out in that way. Label a young person who commits a few minor crimes a juvenile delinquent and they will go on to behave that way as society has expected it.

Ive got the external forces that encourage that I should take prosac, yet I havent accepted the label. I could easily wake up each day, behave in incosiderate ways and perpetually just say "oh, thats because im depressed". The night my ex cheated on me she was acting really stressed before she left when I said "whats wrong?" she replied

"BPD".
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2018, 12:43:41 PM »

Husband321, not to try and torpedo your theory with one example, but my dating experience with my high functioning upwBPD was mostly traditional and old fashioned. It began in the pre-online-dating 90's. We were introduced by mutual friends. Sexual activity began slowly. (By today's standards at least it was slow. I came from a strong religious background, so any any pre-marital sexual activity came with some guilt baggage for me,  making me feel like we were moving very quickly at the time.) She was great with my family and friends and always said and did the "right" things. There was definitely a sense of "she is too good to be true." In hindsight there were some small red flags, but being on the receiving end of idealization made them easy to overlook, and she had the capacity to keep that going a very long time to the point to when  I was well committed to the relationship. (My thinking at the time, "What's a eye roll here and a nasty comment there, out of the blue, when 99% of the time things are great and this is the best looking most agreeable person I have ever been with? No one is perfect, and every one has their down moments, right? Of course. I've got my faults too. Relationships all have some of that."

So, I think people have gotten entangled into BPD relationships long before the current dating culture. There may not have been a name for it at the time, but it has probably been going on forever.  To answer your question, I don't think all these problems could be avoided simply by how we date. I think dating culture/practice is part of the puzzle, but not the whole thing.  More self-awareness and more awareness of of personality disorders in general would be of great help before dating though, I'm with you there.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2018, 12:47:52 PM »

If we were back in the 60s and to commit adultery would have the same level of social stigma and pariah status as it once did, pwBPD would have to double-think to restrain that urge/impulse.

The word "Normal" is a statistical term. Just like DSM is a statistical manual. Normal is an area with in a broader area. As the broader area changes, so does the definition of normal.

So yes, if you lived in the 50's or on a reservation, or in Serbia, normal would be different. If you move to an Amish community, you can achieve what you are suggesting to be better. You gf might not fare well there. But then again, would you? As you said earlier, you slept with her friends as revenge because you thought she might have been unfaithful. That would not fare well either in Amish country.

I think, from a practical perspective, its best to accept the reality you are in... .adapting is healthy.

Match.com can be really unhealthy. No doubt. But one can adapt and find healthy there. There are many stories of good relationships. Many bad. But like it or not, its a big part of our culture now.
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2018, 03:39:38 PM »

Husband321, not to try and torpedo your theory with one example, but my dating experience with my high functioning upwBPD was mostly traditional and old fashioned. It began in the pre-online-dating 90's. We were introduced by mutual friends. Sexual activity began slowly. (By today's standards at least it was slow. I came from a strong religious background, so any any pre-marital sexual activity came with some guilt baggage for me,  making me feel like we were moving very quickly at the time.) She was great with my family and friends and always said and did the "right" things. There was definitely a sense of "she is too good to be true." In hindsight there were some small red flags, but being on the receiving end of idealization made them easy to overlook, and she had the capacity to keep that going a very long time to the point to when  I was well committed to the relationship. (My thinking at the time, "What's a eye roll here and a nasty comment there, out of the blue, when 99% of the time things are great and this is the best looking most agreeable person I have ever been with? No one is perfect, and every one has their down moments, right? Of course. I've got my faults too. Relationships all have some of that."

So, I think people have gotten entangled into BPD relationships long before the current dating culture. There may not have been a name for it at the time, but it has probably been going on forever.  To answer your question, I don't think all these problems could be avoided simply by how we date. I think dating culture/practice is part of the puzzle, but not the whole thing.  More self-awareness and more awareness of of personality disorders in general would be of great help before dating though, I'm with you there.

No problem.   I am sure some coke addicted strippers changed their ways and became excellent moms and wives.  I wouldn't say that is the best way to find a wife however.

I like your post because you can relate. For example,

A. What if when you met your wife you knew she was placing ads in your local newspaper, with her photo, looking for anonymous sex?

B. What if you knew she would take polaroids of herself naked and hand them to strangers?

C. What if a condition to marry her was she needs her own phone line, and you can never know who she talks to?

I am assuming those would be big red flags.  But by today's standards that is tinder, selfies, and cell phones.  That is the new normal. Then you can go up the scale to BPD. Although at first all seem a bit similar

I agree with skip that this is the society we live in, and we have to adapt.  The question is how?

There is so much anonymity possible today, that was previously impossible.  I would categorize many women as "BPD lite" if we compare them to women of just a few decades ago.

That is the challenge.  How not to get sucked into a Jekyll and Hyde relationship whether they are BPD or not.

And I also wonder if something fundamentally changes within women once they cross certain boundaries themselves. And I hope this isn't taken as some sexist rant.

But once they have no problem bedding strangers, showing their naked body before meeting, (once again BPD or not), I wonder if they are fully able to become excellent housewives and mothers who do not need the constant adrenaline rush, and can be content with the mundane day to day tasks many of us have to do.



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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2018, 04:15:08 PM »

Our relationship was slow to build, but I was so confused by growing up in an NPD household that I didn't see the warning signs.

I've said this before here, but a mutual friend observed that if we were ever going to have marriage problems, it would be because he was so rigid. And he had a largely absent father and was one of many children, so not a lot of parental attention. Both are risk factors for BPD of course.

The BPD was low key and manageable at first. I changed jobs so that I rarely travelled because he didn't do well when I was gone. I dropped most of my evening and weekend activities because he wanted me home. But I had work, and it was OK.

The problem came when babies arrived, and I stayed home with them. He didn't like having only part of my attention, and I realized then that his attention was largely on work and projects. It was a lonely, empty time for me, but in time it got better once they slept through the night, and I got part-time work.

Then the BPD went full-bore, and what a rollercoaster it was. About a year before he left, I went for therapy, and she asked all of the right questions. She predicted that we were headed for separation and told me to prepare. He left, tried to commit suicide, came home, and then left again. Thankfully now the kids are in college. And here we are.
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2018, 03:09:59 PM »

 Husband321, I agree with much of what you’re saying here. We’re in a place of pain right now and it’s hard to receive advice from folks that are farther on down the line. We want to be validated in the here and now. I understand and agree with much of what you say

I also think that it would be wise to listen to folks like Skip. Also, you should weigh your thoughts and feelings against that.

Brother, we are here because we’re broken by someone. I hear your argument.

Keep moving forward.






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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2018, 03:41:43 PM »

My ex lover is a beautiful, sexy, wealthy woman who enticed me into making a 200 mile trip to meet her (after meeting online). She didn't mention she was married until we had slept together. Thus began 2 versions of our r/s. One lasting 2 years and another (after an 8 year gap) lasting 6 years and started up again not long after i got married myself. It has been the most painful and revealing r/s of my life.

When I first came on these boards 18 months ago, I thought my ex lover was totally to blame for everything that went wrong in the r/s. I thought she was a manipulative, lying, femme fatale who couldn't care less about my pain. The only thing she was interested in was keeping me on the hook. Then it was suggested to me that we meet our emotional equals.

I have come to understand that the vulnerability I felt in the r/s was similar to the vulnerability she felt in the r/s. I now understand that this kind of vulnerability is also partly to do with childhood wounds/trauma in my own life which means I have been unable to cope properly in relationships for a very long time and I didn't understand why. It turns out that the keeping me on the hook thing that my ex was doing was identical to what I was doing to her. Why? Because we both fear abandonment.

I knew nothing about BPD when I first came here. I have done some extensive reading around the topic and while I am quite sure that my ex has many of the traits that would make up a diagnosis (not that I'm a doctor, so my assertion may not be reliable), I am equally certain that I have some of the traits too, perhaps just not to the same extreme level as my ex.

What has this revelation made me do? I now seek to avoid conflict with my ex. I suddenly realised mid argument that the whole conversation around my hurt feelings was utterly futile. I was not going to change her behaviour and if I wanted to be on good terms with her, then attacking her and creating anxiety in her was exacerbating her mental health issues and triggering any personality disorder she has. I also discovered that by bringing an end to the drama and trying different ways of turning down the volume on my own hurt feelings and extreme emotions, that I am able to function much better. I am back talking to my ex and feel happier. I have no intention of ever seeing her again but right now we both need the contact.

I no longer look upon a pwBPD as some hurtful alien creature who has set out to destroy me. I see somebody not dissimilar to me: a deeply flawed individual trying to do her best having been handed some fairly tough cards to play in life. In short, I got in touch with my empathy and it has helped me not just with my ex but with all of my relationships.

I came in here thinking the problem was her. I have now discovered that the problem is also me.



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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2018, 04:39:37 PM »


What has this revelation made me do? I now seek to avoid conflict with my ex. I suddenly realised mid argument that the whole conversation around my hurt feelings was utterly futile. I was not going to change her behaviour and if I wanted to be on good terms with her, then attacking her and creating anxiety in her was exacerbating her mental health issues and triggering any personality disorder she has. I also discovered that by bringing an end to the drama and trying different ways of turning down the volume on my own hurt feelings and extreme emotions, that I am able to function much better. I am back talking to my ex and feel happier. I have no intention of ever seeing her again but right now we both need the contact.

I no longer look upon a pwBPD as some hurtful alien creature who has set out to destroy me. I see somebody not dissimilar to me: a deeply flawed individual trying to do her best having been handed some fairly tough cards to play in life. In short, I got in touch with my empathy and it has helped me not just with my ex but with all of my relationships.

I came in here thinking the problem was her. I have now discovered that the problem is also me.

Excellent insights. You've gotten to a point of understanding. I came to same sorts of conclusions. I feel deeply sorry for him in his isolation and pain, but I can't interact any more with him one-on-one.
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2018, 12:07:16 AM »

My ex lover is a beautiful, sexy, wealthy woman who enticed me into making a 200 mile trip to meet her (after meeting online). She didn't mention she was married until we had slept together. Thus began 2 versions of our r/s. One lasting 2 years and another (after an 8 year gap) lasting 6 years and started up again not long after i got married myself. It has been the most painful and revealing r/s of my life.

When I first came on these boards 18 months ago, I thought my ex lover was totally to blame for everything that went wrong in the r/s. I thought she was a manipulative, lying, femme fatale who couldn't care less about my pain. The only thing she was interested in was keeping me on the hook. Then it was suggested to me that we meet our emotional equals.

I have come to understand that the vulnerability I felt in the r/s was similar to the vulnerability she felt in the r/s. I now understand that this kind of vulnerability is also partly to do with childhood wounds/trauma in my own life which means I have been unable to cope properly in relationships for a very long time and I didn't understand why. It turns out that the keeping me on the hook thing that my ex was doing was identical to what I was doing to her. Why? Because we both fear abandonment.

I knew nothing about BPD when I first came here. I have done some extensive reading around the topic and while I am quite sure that my ex has many of the traits that would make up a diagnosis (not that I'm a doctor, so my assertion may not be reliable), I am equally certain that I have some of the traits too, perhaps just not to the same extreme level as my ex.

What has this revelation made me do? I now seek to avoid conflict with my ex. I suddenly realised mid argument that the whole conversation around my hurt feelings was utterly futile. I was not going to change her behaviour and if I wanted to be on good terms with her, then attacking her and creating anxiety in her was exacerbating her mental health issues and triggering any personality disorder she has. I also discovered that by bringing an end to the drama and trying different ways of turning down the volume on my own hurt feelings and extreme emotions, that I am able to function much better. I am back talking to my ex and feel happier. I have no intention of ever seeing her again but right now we both need the contact.

I no longer look upon a pwBPD as some hurtful alien creature who has set out to destroy me. I see somebody not dissimilar to me: a deeply flawed individual trying to do her best having been handed some fairly tough cards to play in life. In short, I got in touch with my empathy and it has helped me not just with my ex but with all of my relationships.

I came in here thinking the problem was her. I have now discovered that the problem is also me.


Let me ask this... .As this seems to be a re occurring theme I can't yet grasp... (But I am guessing this was another online quick sexual hook up that led to more)

Let's say you met this beautiful wealthy woman after your 200 mile drive, and she was not married, and not BPD... .

Do you feel you were healthy enough to have a functional relationship and life with her?

Or do we get sucked into relationships with these "crazy" , lying, manipulators who bring out all sorts of dormant/ bad sides in us, that then need to be fixed? Or we then think need to be fixed? Push/pull, up/down, love/hate, elaborate stories, lies, and excuses... Whom is programmed to know how to deal with these types, in real time.  Of course, looking back is far easier.

It seems we are then "co dependent", "too nice", "narcissistic", "afraid to be abandoned", "need to work on ourselves", "need to learn" etc.

Who on earth does not have any issues AT ALL that someone out there cannot bring out?.  

Is it better to live life being confident with whom we are and using a bit more common sense? Or is it better to try and somehow analyze every part of ourselves, and in a way blame ourselves for falling for someone who spent a life time mastering the art of lying, deception, mirroring, manipulation, etc.




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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2018, 01:18:01 AM »

This was part of your response to another poster, but it struck me so I’d like to elaborate.

Is it better to live life being confident with whom we are and using a bit more common sense? Or is it better to try and somehow analyze every part of ourselves, and in a way blame ourselves for falling for someone who spent a life time mastering the art of lying, deception, mirroring, manipulation, etc.

Maybe it just depends on where a person is with themselves. I think that in being truly confident with ourselves, common sense is as easy as taking a breath. I’m speaking from personal experience when I say that I thought I had unbreakable confidence for a stretch of my life, but I allowed it to be crushed by others. I’d have to conclude that my confidence wasn’t all that good if I allowed this to happen.

I think it’s important to analyze things when we are feeling troubled. This separates us from the people that lead us to this support group. The hard part and crux of this can be being too hard on ourselves. Blaming ourselves. How does that help our confidence?

I don’t believe that the people that hurt us have perfected an art form. I believe that they are surviving through perpetual victomhood. This is probably the only grey area of their life. Stuck between being a victim and survivor.

The anger is an important part of the process, Husband321. It gets better. It begins to fade and the weight of it becomes lighter. I know that it doesn’t feel that way right now. Embrace the anger for as long as you need to, but be mindful to know that you will need to let it go at some point. Don’t get stuck in it.
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2018, 04:00:03 AM »

Hi Husband321,

To some degree any r/s is fraught with tensions over time. Therefore at some point we all have to examine ourselves and see if some of our behaviours are unreasonable or codependent or unhealthy. It’s just when we get involved with our BPDs the conflict is so extreme and their behaviour so erratic and hurtful that the self examination becomes necessary to mitigate our pain.

Prior to meeting my BPD I had a very painful push/pull r/s in which my behaviour was not unlike that of a BPD. She told me she loved me very early on and it was clear that she wanted a full on r/s at the age of 32. I was not ready for that and felt engulfment. I didn’t have the emotional intelligence to discuss it with her so I pushed her away and had affairs. I couldn’t understand my own behaviour and it took me many years to recover from my guilt.

When I met the BPD she seemed to be very much on my wavelength. I had met my emotional equal. That should have made me run a mile because my emotional equal was not healthy. I was attracted to her because she had similar traits to me. That is the point I am making.  I never would have recognised what those traits were had there not been issues in the r/s . We only recognise these things through pain. If the r/s is all happy and fun then why would we need to self examine?
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