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Author Topic: FAQ: Is there an evil external force involved in a BPD relationship?  (Read 3965 times)
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« on: March 21, 2019, 10:49:20 AM »

I have said this all along and I understand it may not be politically correct but I believe there is some type of evil involved with BPD.

If you read everyone's experience on this board there are constant similarities involved with all of them.

There is more than a hint of evil in people with BPD. Just my humble opinion. Why do they continue to draw us back in no matter how much they mistreat us? And that is where I think there is some-type of evil involved. If we looked at this objectively after reading all these posts we are all idiots for putting up with this constant mistreatment but we do it and go back for more while they move on without a care in the world for our feelings or what they did to us.

And we miss them, and we pine for them, and we get sick to our stomachs, etc, etc, etc.

Evil.
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 11:34:55 AM »

There's a couple of series on Netflix called 'Story of Us' and 'Story of God' by Morgan Freeman. I've been watching it recently and I found some of the ideas interesting.

Many religions believe that Evil lies within us all, and this is very very true. It makes up our humanity. Good and God also lies within us all, interwoven in our humanity. It's that knife edge that we all live on which determines whether we do good or do evil.

If you think back to many humanitarian atrocities, these were committed by normal human-beings; Rwanda genocide, Nazi genocides, The Balatics, 9/11. These acts weren't necessarily committed out of emotional dysregulation but situational and society driven circumstances. When Evil is allowed to flow from humanity it can in the most heinous ways.

Emotional dysregulation is a powerful force which peels back the restraints of human kindness uncovering our inner demons.

Most of us are capable of these heinous acts even if we just don't know it yet, we shouldn't forget that.  

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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 12:20:15 PM »

I will check out both shows. It is an interesting topic to me as I have always believed there is a constant battle between good and evil that rages everyday in society. There is some type of force that constantly draws us back to the BPD partner even though we are all smart enough to know this person is not good for us in the long run. For a time, we are hurt mentally and emotionally and to the extreme physically so I try to look at all angles and the one observation I make is there seems to be an evil component to this.
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »

If we looked at this objectively after reading all these posts we are all idiots for putting up with this constant mistreatment but we do it and go back for more while they move on without a care in the world for our feelings or what they did to us.

I think that the point  is that we can only control ourselves and we can't control anyone else. I didn't go back because my ex had an influence over me I went back because I had really low self esteem, I had very poor boundaries, I didn't think that I deserved better and I wasn't assertive.

All of those qualities were there before I met my ex wife it was shaped many years before if anything influenced me it was the environment that I grew up in. I was emotionally abused which impacted my self esteem, self worth I didn't trust others and my r/s skills were poor because I had poor teachers (my parents) My exuBPDw wasn't there in my childhood I can't blame her for that.

That being said you take what you can learn from this experience so that you can become healthier and have healthier r/s's so that you don't find yourself with a similar partner in the future. Your quality of life becomes better when you practice good mental health which is not easy but worth it.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 02:32:46 PM »

Excerpt
you take what you can learn from this experience so that you can become healthier and have healthier r/s's so that you don't find yourself with a similar partner in the future.

Nicely said, Mutt.  As one becomes healthier in the aftermath of a BPD r/s, one attracts healthier partners, which can lead to greater happiness, in my view.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 02:57:11 PM »

All good points. Just looking at things from a different perspective. I don't believe anyone ever intentionally invites evil in and it comes in the disguise of overwhelming love and leaves us in a path of despair and destruction.
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 03:00:25 PM »

Excerpt
Why do they continue to draw us back in no matter how much they mistreat us? And that is where I think there is some-type of evil involved.


We go back to them because of what is within us.  Looking at it any other way, IMO, leaves us as perpetual victims with no power and no agency.  Hell no.

I do agree that we all have the capacity for evil within us.  some of us just have not had to confront that part of us yet and some have missed its existence within their self.  
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 03:14:11 PM »

If that is true that we go back because it is what is within us than we would struggle with both the BPD and non BPD relationships. In my experience the BPD relationship is totally different than any relationship I experienced in the past. I have experienced break-ups before with someone I loved but never felt the same type of mental pain and anguish as the one with the BPD break-up. Roller coaster rides, constant walking on egg shells, constantly defending myself over false accusations, constant break-ups, etc but I was always drawn back in and never felt I had any control over why I was drawn back in. For me at 54 years old and well educated this was a totally different experience than anything before.
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 03:22:13 PM »

I think these relationships are 'different' because they touched things deep within our core, our deepest wounds and most vulnerable areas, and that is why they are so devastating to us.  Not because of any pull the pwBPD may have or we think they have.  IMO of course. 

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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 03:30:38 PM »

Again, all good points. If you look at it that way, a person who is not deeply wounded like us from past experiences could have a relationship with a PWBPD and survive. It's an interesting discussion. I like to keep an open mind to all view points. Evil in my mind is still one of the factors and goes back to adam and eve.
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 05:08:44 PM »

Thank you for posting a difficult topic. I believe we should always look first  to science, logic and conventional reasoning, but I can't help wondering if you are at least partly on to something here.

I wonder how much genetics plays a role in this. I wonder how much upbringing and trauma plays a role in this. I wonder if generational history and trauma plays a role. I wonder if nutrition and the physical environment plays a role. I wonder how much our own behaviors play a role.  I wonder how much of this is cultural. And, yes, sometimes I can't help but think there is something otherworldly, call it evil if you like, involved to some degree. I also wonder if the language of religion and the language of psychology some describe the same phenomena, but just approach it from different angles. (For example maybe the concept of inherited generational trauma is akin to generational curses.)

My upbringing was religious so I am predisposed to think spiritually as an adult. Religion also plays a big role in keeping me in my marriage. I don't fully believe all I was taught about religion as a child but, for me, some of those ideas stuck on an emotional level, even if I don't buy them intellectually anymore. They're not right for other people, but they are mine for whatever reasons.  That, along with family, children, finances and many other valid reasons, keep many of us in, or bring us back to, relationships that others might leave, without having to factor that we are under some kind of evil spell. Having said that, from what  I have seen firsthand, and have read here and in other places, that at times seems kind of spooky,  I can't help but wonder. Not that pwBPD and/or nons are evil, but maybe there is some kind of malevolent force that's acting  on both as well? It sounds far fetched, but I can't help but wonder.

If that's the case, my upbringing tells me that prayer can be a powerful help. If that's not the case, then at the very it least it can be like a meditation that eases stress. It has seemed to help me.  I will try and pray more. And, for what it's worth, Bless You All.
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2019, 09:59:23 AM »

I think these relationships are 'different' because they touched things deep within our core, our deepest wounds and most vulnerable areas, and that is why they are so devastating to us.  Not because of any pull the pwBPD may have or we think they have.  

Agree, Harri.  Confronting our wounds, and healing them, in my view, is what leads to growth in the aftermath of a BPD r/s.  

We go back to them because of what is within us.  Looking at it any other way, IMO, leaves us as perpetual victims with no power and no agency.  Hell no.

Yes to that, too, Harri.  We recycle when we still haven't healed the wounds within, in my view.  It takes a while for the hard lessons to sink in, or at least in my case it did.

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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2019, 10:56:46 AM »

Excerpt
Evil Genes? An Unconventional Perspective On BPD
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201312/evil-genes-unconventional-perspective-BPD

"Why Rome fell, Hitler rose, and my sister stole my mother’s boyfriend."

Struggling with borderline pesonality disorder?  Or interacting often with someone whose frequent high-intensity emotions impinge on your well-being as well as theirs?  If so, Barbara Oakley’s book Evil Genes is likely to prove provocative, either positively or negatively.  Oakley suggests that the hurtful behaviors of some folks with borderline personality disorder sometimes cannot be fixed via individual or couples counseling because these patterns are hard-wired into the person’s genetic makeup.

Subtitled “Why Rome fell, Hitler rose, Enron failed and my sister stole my mother’s boyfriend,” Evil Genes may make you mad.  At the same time, the book offers a serious scientist's comprehensive review of neuroscientic, genetic and historical studies of borderline personality disorder (BPD). The result is a book that challenges psychologists like myself to consider the possibility that all BPD bad behavior is not necessarily due to childhood traumas alone.

Oakley gives evidence that genes are at the basis of some of the deceitful, manipulative and even sadistic behavior of borderline individuals.

Oaklely herself knows how to research a scientific question.  With a doctorate in the integrative discipline of systems engineering, as an associate professor of engineering at Oakland University in Michigan, and as a recent vice president of the world’s largest bioengineering society, Oakley has credentials as a scientist that lend serious credibility to her investigations.

Oakley also backs up her extensive scientific and historical explorations with her personal experience. As the subtitle of the book suggests, Oakley’s BPD sister—frequently stunned the family with outrageously selfish actions that had significantly injurious impacts on other family members.

One of the aspects of this book that I particularly like is that Oakley overcomes the conventional tendency of mental health professionals to use the term BPD to refer primarily just to women. Evil Genes utilizes this diagnosis to cover also the behavior of many men who would typically have been labeled abusive, sociopathic, narcissistic or with the label malignant narcissism without indication of the link between these behaviors and the hurtful behaviors of women who get labeled BPD.

The term BPD is clearly in flux.  How much overlap there is between BPD and not only overly-intense emotional reactions but also narcissism, paranoia, sociopathy and sometimes sadism as well is unclear. Oakley explores the relationship between these multiple factors and how they have played out in the lives are various well-known historical figures whose BPD, when they are men, has typically been characterised as malignant narcissism.

The bottom line is that I generally recommend this book to my clients when they are struggling to understand the behaviors of a mysteriously difficult-to-deal BPD parent or sibling.

The feedback I have received from my clients has been consistent. The book helps them to feel calmer and more accepting of the difficult BPD family member, and yet to be able to deal with them with increased realism.

I too like this book. Its comprehensive review of the scientific literature is very helpful. The writing style is so  engaging that it reads almost like a novel. Most importantly however Oakley sustains a surprising empathy for borderlines, in spite of, or perhaps because of, their propensity to take actions which others would regard as evil.

I’ll conclude therefore this review of Oakley’s excellent book by quoting a paragraph that for me summarizes Oakley’s dual ability to see the evil clearly that borderline individuals can do, and at the same time to see the person behind the evil with compassion.

“Both high-tech neuroscience and Carolyn’s old-fashioned journal entries have helped me to realize that Carolyn [the author’s sister], and people like her, often don’t consciously intend to be evil and certainly don’t see  themselves as evil—despite the blindingly obvious and sometimes terrible consequences of their actions. Instead, these are people who are constrained by the quirks of their neural machinery—often carved by both genes and environment—to act in self-serving, manipulative, and deceitful ways.  Evil though the consequences of their actions may be, such Machiavellians are still real people, not caricatures—they can become heartbreakingly lonely, monumentally sad, and their eyes can become filled with tears of pity—even if it is only self-pity.” (p. 331).
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2019, 11:13:16 AM »

while resentment is often justified, at a certain point, replaying it and taking it to great heights can actually hinder our recovery, or keep us stuck in that resentment.

it sounds like youre struggling with anger toward your ex, and the way that the relationship ended. i did too, for a really long time. at the same time, underneath that anger is probably very real hurt that you may not have come to terms with yet. it can be healed.

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery?

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery?
for bpdfamily.com members disengaging from a romantic relationship

You've read the vitriol on the Internet - you may have even participated in it yourself. Here are some quotes on bpdfamily... .

"These people (with BPD) are emotional vampires... ."
"They are all the same, they suck us dry, we are only supply to them, then they move on to another innocent victim... ."
"They are all evil, pure evil... ."
"They hunt for their marks, good and giving people like us, and then they strike... ."
"Watchout, they will suck you back into the relationship - no matter how hard you try to get away... ."
"LOSERS!... ."

So, is this helping us or hurting us?  oes this sound more like healthy anger or unbridled resentment or even possibly dysfunctional coping?  How do we know when has the anger gone so far as to become detrimental to our healing? This is the topic of this workshop.

Some thoughts to kick off this discussion... .

Healthy Grieving  We all know that it is important that we grieve the end (death) of these relationships.  The grieving cycle, according to Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D includes Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.  The duration, order, and a degree of each stage varies with the individuals.

Dysfunctional Resentment  Resentment is a mental process in which we repeatedly replay a feeling, and the events leading up to that feeling that angers us. With resentment, we re-experience and relive events in ways that affect us mentally, emotionally, physiologically and spiritually in destructive ways.

According to Mark Siche (author of Healing from Family Rifts), resentment happens when:

    We feel what people did to us that was unnecessarily mean, hurtful, and disrespectful or humiliating


    What people in our lives did not do for us mean, hurtful, and disrespectful or humiliating


Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful?  

So how does a little venting hurt us?  When we are resentful, we try to balance the wrongs we feel by demeaning the person that hurt us.  We bash them, feel disgust for them, feel hatred or look down in pity... .we may even wish them harm or lash out to hurt them or their reputation.

The problem for us is that we create a dysfunctional and false reality to sooth our pain.  And in doing so we cling to a futile need to be right or be superior, which overrides our capacity to heal and to make healthy changes in our lives... .usually because we don't know any other way to come to grips with the painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2019, 11:30:45 AM »

keep many of us in, or bring us back to, relationships that others might leave, without having to factor that we are under some kind of evil spell.

You sound like s pretty good person. I just wanted to zoom out with relationships in mind. I’m interpreting this discussion as romantic r/s’s and BPD ex partners are evil. Maybe somone else interprets it differently.

Can we talk about more r/s’s son, daughter, parent, grand parent etc.

Let’s say if you try your very best at raising your child, there’s always going to be curve balls thrown at you things that you don’t anticipate. You have a good r/s with your child and you start to notice BPD traits from your child.

Now would that make your child evil?
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2019, 11:43:41 AM »

it sounds like youre struggling with anger toward your ex, and the way that the relationship ended. i did too, for a really long time. at the same time, underneath that anger is probably very real hurt that you may not have come to terms with yet. it can be healed.

For what it's worth, to me it doesn't sound as if Mindfried is struggling with anger. I read these posts more as an alternative to the DSM definition of BPD (or any of the personality disorders, for that matter).

Until I met my STBX and his father, I never believed in evil. Of those two men? Hands down, the father, in my opinion, is truly evil. I define evil as the propensity to behave without conscience or acceptance for the consequences one's actions may have on others.

Believe me when I tell you, I am not angry at my STBX's father. I am too removed and too healed to be angry with him. I am still hurt at how he treated me, and yet I am grateful for how he treated me because it made me truly understand (and I'm in my mid-60s) that people are not projections of who I am. Because I don't lie does not mean others won't lie to me. Because I am direct does not mean others will be direct with me. Because I don't have a hidden agenda does not mean others don't have agendas.

In an effort to for his son into a residential treatment program, my STBX's father cut his son off financially. Shortly after my STBX filed for divorce (STBX had been supporting me), his father cut me off financially. I had no money coming in for six months except for loans from friends and family, a small amount of social security, and food stamps.

I am not mentally ill, not like my STBX, and I can tell you those six months were unbelievably stressful. And humiliating. I didn't like borrowing from people, and I sure as hell didn't like going on food stamps.

So if I had that reaction, and I am not mentally ill (STBX has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia in addition to personality disorders), I can't even imagine what my STBX went through. I think for a father to do that to his son is evil.

STBX's father approached the mental illness as one might approach a substance abuse disorder: by having an intervention. With someone as disordered as my STBX was at the time, it was a disaster, and the actions made him much much worse.

I couldn't do to a stranger what that man did to his own son, and I think it's evil to behave in such a way.

Just my two cents on a beautiful Spring morning,

TMD
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2019, 12:14:27 PM »

TMD is correct. I am not struggling with anger over my ex its been over 8 months and I have been moving on. I am just discussing other possibilities when looking at BPD and putting it up for discussion. My last post was not me, it was an article written in Psychology Today that I shared to add to the discussion. Sorry for any confusion. Since this is a discussion board I thought it would be an interesting topic.
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 12:20:23 PM »

In an effort to for his son into a residential treatment program, my STBX's father cut his son off financially. Shortly after my STBX filed for divorce (STBX had been supporting me), his father cut me off financially. I had no money coming in for six months except for loans from friends and family, a small amount of social security, and food stamps.

I think I must be missing something here. If your STBX's father was evil and thus incapable of empathy, was sadistic and cruel, was it not more cruel to continue to watch him destroy himself rather than try and get him into a residential program? Arguably the cruellest thing to do would be to provide him the financial means with which to avoid the consequences of his actions... I'm guessing he wasn't a spring chicken if you're in your 60's and yet he wasn't financially responsible for himself? If this is the case then I'm sure plenty of the moms and pops on the parenting board who are cutting off financial support to their kids in an attempt to avoid enabling their dysfunction must also be considered evil and heartless. The fact that he didn't care so much for your welfare maybe a matter for his personal boundaries seeing you as collateral damage to him sorting out his son. As I said, I might have missed something.

All humans have an innate ability to commit cruel and selfish acts. We are at heart animals. HOWEVER, we have generated systems that pull us back to a moral plumb line, to keep us straight and orderly and within the best interests of society. Outside of these societal codes of conduct we consider things as bad, wrong and to the extreme, Evil. Someone in the UK might think that it's utterly barbaric to rock up to a goat and slit it's throat and leave it to bleed out... not so much in Afghanistan. Would you eat dog... or a guinea pig? We might consider people who killed a dog as Evil. My point is that without certain key cognitive abilities we are able to suppress conscience and commit acts of cruelty both physically and mentally to other, and actually justify them as moral and for the good. I am 99.9999% sure that Hitler genuinely thought he was doing good when he ordered the extinction of the Jews... and he found hundreds if not thousands of people to help him achieve that. His and their plumb line were soo far off base and they cognitively justified it to themselves that it was okay, and actually they were doing good. EVIL RESIDES IN ALL OF US. Some people use Christian teaching as their plumb line, some use Islam, some use Facebook... and more importantly most are able to keep that plumb line with some degree of consistency... but some aren't... and some really really really aren't able to, which allows them to do heinous things which are so far removed from what is considered socially normal we consider them to be Evil.

Is this genetic, in part I think it's likely, but it's also conditional. Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Good kids get sexually abused by their fathers and spent the rest of their lives reliving the trauma every single hour of every single day... and they can't stick to the plumb line of civility and we call those people Evil... and yes... they might sexually abuse their own son as their father did to them.

A good film to watch is The Shack... Christian... but good on whatever level you want to take it.

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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 12:25:51 PM »

Here is the OP for reference:

I have said this all along and I understand it may not be politically correct but I believe there is some type of evil involved with BPD. If you read everyone's experience on this board there are constant similarities involved with all of them. There is more than a hint of evil in people with BPD. Just my humble opinion. Why do they continue to draw us back in no matter how much they mistreat us? And that is where I think there is some-type of evil involved. If we looked at this objectively after reading all these posts we are all idiots for putting up with this constant mistreatment but we do it and go back for more while they move on without a care in the world for our feelings or what they did to us. And we miss them, and we pine for them, and we get sick to our stomachs, etc, etc, etc. Evil.

My objection to the word evil is the idea, above, that pwBPD have some invisible pull or control of us that leaves us helpless and we are just drawn back into their evilness with no chance of escaping.  

The conversation around evil has now changed a bit and that is fine, but lets not forget how this conversation started.  
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 01:02:14 PM »

I think I must be missing something here. If your STBX's father was evil and thus incapable of empathy, was sadistic and cruel, was it not more cruel to continue to watch him destroy himself rather than try and get him into a residential program?

  To get his son into a residential program, in my opinion, should have been attempted by making direct contact with his son, not simply cutting him off. Mental illness is not the same as substance abuse, and my STBX was diagnosed, at the very least, with a thought disorder, and possibly with schizophrenia.

  Being cut off in that way caused my STBX to decline further. And, in my opinion, and I say this as a parent, STBX's father needed a hands-on approach to his son and not try to "fix" him 2500 miles away.

  I see this behavior as cruel and having nothing to do with trying to get his son better, or even stabilizing. My opinion--and it's harsh--is that my STBX's father knows nothing of the required emotional work of parenting and believes throwing money at his son and then taking it away as he sees fit is his role as father.

  
Arguably the cruellest thing to do would be to provide him the financial means with which to avoid the consequences of his actions...

Nobody ever made my STBX accept the consequences of his actions. Not his father, not his mother, and not his psychiatrists.

An example: My STBX had a problem with substance abuse and went to a residential program where he called one of the staff members the 'N' word. His father's response was that the facility should expect that kind of behavior.

Another example: My STBX routinely called me and a woman who worked for him the "C" word. His psychiatrist said we should get used to being called the "C" word, so it wouldn't hurt.  His father responded that he was sorry that his son was calling people the "C" word, but wasn't that to be expected?

People to my STBX's father are expendable and should accept their role as being recipients of abuse. I think that's evil.

 I am 99.9999% sure that Hitler genuinely thought he was doing good when he ordered the extinction of the Jews...

I don't agree with you. I think Hitler saw Jews, intellectuals, gypsies, and so on as expendable. I don't think he was capable of empathy. To me that makes him evil. And the people who saw what he was doing and did nothing, it makes them evil as well.

I think Hitler felt justified in dehumanizing people, but I don't think he saw  what he was doing as good.

I think those who go after the powerless are evil, and I think those who allow others to go after the powerless are culpable, as well.

Interesting discussion.

TMD
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2019, 01:04:59 PM »

Okay Harri,

Fair enough you don't like the word evil. Can you relate to any of this below. The point I am trying to make is there is more here than psychological issues at play when it comes to BPD IMO. It's kind of like alternative medicines. If we just looked to traditional medicine and not alternatives would we be better off.  Just putting an alternative viewpoint out there for thoughts and discussion.

Excerpt
https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikita-mor/2017/02/13-signs-youre-in-what-is-known-as-a-karmic-relationship/
Eastern Philosophy believes almost every person goes through one or more karmic relationships during their lifetime. Karmic relationships are not meant to last, and they are usually the biggest life lessons in love.

Karmic relationships are different from twin flame and soulmate relationships. In a spiritual context, karmic relationships are viewed from the lens of personal growth. Here are some of the signs of a karmic relationship.

1. They repeat patterns. If you’re on and off in your relationship, that is major sign it’s a karmic one. If you seem to be experiencing the same kinds of relationship problems, that is also a big red flag. Such relationships repeat the same patterns and remain stagnant, because the only way you can grow from them is by letting go.

2. They are selfish. Karmic relationships do not respect healthy boundaries in their partners. They serve only their own self-interest and needs. They are the perfect template for forming abusive or co-dependent relationship complexes. While one person is very invested, the other person views it more as a convenience.

3. They are addictive. They are characterised by highs and lows of passionate intensity. One or both partners are more in love with the idea of love, based on superficial reasons such as good looks, popularity, social or professional status.

4. They are controlling. They are obsessive and all about ownership of your partner. The other person becomes the center of your universe, and the main source of your happiness. You put them on a pedestal, and are unable to see their flaws.

5. They feel destined. You think that you cannot live without this person, and feel like you both are somehow meant to be together. You cannot fathom why it keeps failing, and you keep trying and hoping to get it right. They are extremely hard to resist, and keep drawing you in, until you learn what you need to from it.

6. There is an instant connection. Such relationships are marked by an immediate attraction. This person feels perfect to you. It feels like you have known them before, and you become instantly attached to them.

7. They create dependency. You begin to feel consumed by the relationship, and it begins to occupy your thoughts all the time. You can’t help handing them all the power. You become mentally, physically and emotionally dependent on this person.

8. They bring out your worst fears. They bring to the surface all the things you are deathly afraid of. Fear of abandonment, fear of commitment, fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of emotional engulfment, and all the skeletons hiding in your closet.

9. They are irrational. They hold a mirror to your worst vulnerabilities and ugly insecurities. You start acting unlike yourself, and do things that you wouldn’t normally do.

10. They reveal your dark side. They show you your most undesirable and difficult characteristics that you were previously unaware of. They painfully remind you how human you actually are.

11. They are tumultuous. Such relationships are incredibly volatile, erratic and unpredictable. The best thing you can do for yourself is to identify such a relationship, and learn to let it go for your own good.

12. They push your buttons. The main purpose of these relationships is for you to learn how to properly love yourself and others, such that you stop trying to control your circumstances, become the master of your own ego, and focus on working on yourself.

13. They do not last. This person is not your forever person, how much ever you want to hope, wish and believe in your fairy-tale ending. Contrary to what you see on television and media, such relationships are born out of conflict and end in conflict. They are extremely unhealthy, and usually do not last. TC mark

https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikita-mor/2017/02/13-signs-youre-in-what-is-known-as-a-karmic-relationship/

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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2019, 01:26:46 PM »

TMD,

Let me link what you have said to what I wrote. You and your father in-law have different plumb lines... different values. He might think that chucking money at things solves problems (until he doesn’t) because maybe it has worked for him in the past, and maybe it worked for his father. Maybe he has poor parenting skills. You believe that he should have come to your Ex and worked with him... that’s kinda 2 different sets of values right there... I can even see how they are gender values in that it might not come naturally to nurture his adult son. Either way you are both adhering to a set of values and both attempting in your own ways to do the right thing.

Is your father in-law wrong for suggesting that you should get used to being called a C? Maybe not, maybe what he should have said was “if you insist on staying with my son and by all means don’t as you’re free to go whenever you please, you’re going to have to get used to being called a C and look through that as part of the disorder. My son has limited control over his emotions and often this results in abusive language... your choice!” Although not nice, I can see his point about a mental institution likely expecting to be verbal abused... they do physical restraint training to protect them and their patients, I’d be surprised if they didn’t expect to be called a N or a C before getting punched in the face.

You judge your father in-law as evil because his values and the behavioural manifestation of those values is different to your own. You judge your Ex as Evil because he is unable to align his behaviour to any values and in fact those values are likely to fluctuate... because he is diagnosed with a serious mental disorder, and yes, that behaviour is sometimes very much out of societal norms in a zone we might refer to as evil.

99.99999999% of people act with good intentions for the presevatipn of something important to them... that something might be themselves. There are very few true psycopaths that actually take pleasure in other people’s physical or mental pain.

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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2019, 01:35:41 PM »

Eastern Philosophy believes...

In the Buddhist perspective, people are not labeled as evil.  

My challenge to you is to examine the benefits and risks of playing the "evil" card. The biggest downside in doing this for me is that it paints my experience in terms of us/them, good person/bad person, fault/no fault.

If these are learning experiences...  we must have our eyes open to learn.

For example:

1. They repeat patterns.
We have a role in this. Why did we do it?

2. They are selfish - one person is very invested, the other person views it more as a convenience.
I'm not sure this is common, but if it is, why did we stay?

3. They are addictive.
This is on us.

4. They are controlling. The other person becomes the center of your universe, and the main source of your happiness. You put them on a pedestal, and are unable to see their flaws.
This is on us.

5. They feel destined. You think that you cannot live without this person, and feel like you both are somehow meant to be together.
This is on us.

6. There is an instant connection. This person feels perfect to you... you become instantly attached to them.
We have a role in this.

7. They create dependency. You can’t help handing them all the power. You become mentally, physically and emotionally dependent on this person.
This is on us.

8. They bring out your worst fears. They bring to the surface all the things you are deathly afraid of. Fear of abandonment, fear of commitment, fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of emotional engulfment, and all the skeletons hiding in your closet.
Our fears are our issues.

9. They are irrational. They hold a mirror to your worst vulnerabilities and ugly insecurities. You start acting unlike yourself, and do things that you wouldn’t normally do.
This is on us.

10. They reveal your dark side. They show you your most undesirable and difficult characteristics that you were previously unaware of. They painfully remind you how human you actually are.
This is on us.

11. They are tumultuous. Such relationships are incredibly volatile, erratic and unpredictable. The best thing you can do for yourself is to identify such a relationship, and learn to let it go for your own good.
Our fears are our issues.

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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 01:39:03 PM »

I think we agree more than disagree here.  

It is not that I do not like the word evil.  My statements were based on your idea that we are somehow at the whim of this evilness that is within other people and are, in essence helpless and "drawn in" with chance.  That is how I took your comment in your opening post.  The conversation has since evolved.  

I do believe that evil exists.  I believe that we all have the capacity within us to do evil acts.  I am, however, very cautious in how I use the word.  Perhaps it is down to a determination within me to overcome and heal from a life time of abuse at the hands of my mom and dad.  I am not helpless anymore and I see no purpose in thinking that I was drawn in and helpless in the face of their dysfunction... even though as a kid I was in fact helpless.   I was not helpless when I got into a relationship with my ex.  I got into my relationship with my ex because of the wounds I carried and certain traits that I still have but did not know how to temper.

Thanks for sharing the info on karmic relationships.  Again, i think we agree on a lot of aspects in this conversation.  I object to the idea that we have no part in it or that we are somehow better than others.  We played a huge part in our relationship and not just as innocent bystander.  We are not helpless.  We are responsible.

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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 01:57:53 PM »

All good points. Relationships are two way streets and yes we take full responsibility for our actions and for staying. The main point that I was trying to get across was does evil draw us back in. Is there something more at play than. We are all smart individuals but some how no matter how hard we try and no matter how much we get help, no matter how much we are well aware these relationships are toxic, we all seem to be drawn back in. Just food for thought and an interesting topic of discussion. For me there was some type of hold that I could not let go no matter how hard I tried.
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2019, 02:40:53 PM »

does evil draw us back in.

i dont think so. speaking for only myself, what drew me back in was one part love, part my own fear of abandonment, part fear of abandoning her/guilt, as well as my commitment and investment. we were together about three years and it was my first adult relationship. that was a lot to give up.

some of the reasons for relationship recycling are discussed here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95860.0

it also, of course, was too good to leave, too bad to stay. i remember telling her a few times that i felt that the relationship was 90% bad and 10% good. if that was really true, there must have been something about that 10% that was very powerful, and i dont think that was just something she had or created.

people with BPD arent powerful as we often paint them out to be. a personality disorder is not a life or relationship advantage, its a serious skills (relationships and coping) and functioning (life, ability to navigate, cognitive function) deficit.

Excerpt
We are all smart individuals

you might be giving me too much credit . at the end of the day, i was as immature and dysfunctional as she was. i had a lot to learn.
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2019, 05:09:37 PM »

Hello everyone,

If i may interject, we can play semantics all day.

I agree fully with "us" being drawn into and staying because of our issues, that's the point of this board if I'm not mistaken to evoke a self perception, self analysis, the looking glass self, healing from our own issues, learning what they are, giving us the ability NOT to have such unhealthy relationships, NOT to seek them out, NOT to make excuses to be involved in them and rationalizing the idea of a scale, good parts vs bad parts of the rs in order to justify in our own minds.

Fine, we are speaking of "us".

I gather that this thread is about intentions...

Can we say my first paragraph was about our intentions towards ourselves and others? 

Are we allowed to discuss the pwBPD's intentions, are we calling calculating bad or destructive behavior evil, for lack of a better term, one that does indeed have an agreed upon meaning across society, not necessarily a source of it.

Can people be evil in their intentions?  Open ended question.  My response is yes.  Evil is not to be blamed for our response to evil, in of itself, bad intentions, calculating, knowing you are causing pain, hurt, desperation and damage cannot be thrown out the window because of a disorder, I have to believe that the intentions of doing something bad, especially bpdfamily type bad may be referred to as evil.

Sounds like I'm having a grand old time with my rs, doesn't it?
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2019, 05:56:35 PM »

Are we allowed to discuss the pwBPD's intentions, are we calling calculating bad or destructive behavior evil, for lack of a better term, one that does indeed have an agreed upon meaning across society, not necessarily a source of it.

We can certainly talk about pwBPD traits and our partners intentions.

are we calling calculating bad or destructive behavior evil, for lack of a better term, one that does indeed have an agreed upon meaning across society, not necessarily a source of it.

We are a psychology based community and we encourage the use of scientific terminology because it is defined and there is research on much of it - science.

What is the meaning of evil? Does it have an agreed upon meaning? It's not a psychology term.

The OP is describing evil, in part, as an unexplained power over him. is that part of your definition?

Good discussion, guys.
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2019, 06:03:09 PM »

Is your father in-law wrong for suggesting that you should get used to being called a C? Maybe not, maybe what he should have said was “if you insist on staying with my son and by all means don’t as you’re free to go whenever you please, you’re going to have to get used to being called a C and look through that as part of the disorder. My son has limited control over his emotions and often this results in abusive language... your choice!” Although not nice, I can see his point about a mental institution likely expecting to be verbal abused... they do physical restraint training to protect them and their patients, I’d be surprised if they didn’t expect to be called a N or a C before getting punched in the face.

The best I can say is we disagree. And it wasn't my FIL who told me I should get used to being called a "C", it was my STBX's psychiatrist. The point I was making was in response to yours regarding my FIL pushing my STBX to have natural consequences to his actions by cutting him off financially. I was letting you know that the cutting off wasn't for him to have natural consequences. That is not what my in-laws do.

I was pointing out that his family and his psychiatrist enabled his verbally abusive behavior. Interestingly enough, his cognitive behavioral therapist did not enable the verbal abuse. Nor did the T ever suggest that anyone be expected to be the recipient of verbal abuse.

Would you as supportive of physical abuse?

And I don't think my husband is evil. Probably, for that matter, I don't even think my FIL is evil. I do, however, believe that my FIL's actions within his career and his family are evil because they result in people being hurt, sometimes badly. And I believe that my FIL is fully aware that his actions result in people being hurt.

FIL's values are not mine. You are right about that. But I think it is naive to maintain that 99.9999999% of people have good intentions. It is that naivete that got me believing what my FIL said and ignoring what he did.

But like I said, initially, the best I can say here is you and I disagree. We have had different experiences that have shaped what we think and how we view the world, but I do think a discussion of what constitutes evil is valuable and quite interesting.

Have a nice weekend,
TMD
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2019, 06:32:34 PM »

Skip,

Thanks, I knew my "stuff" wouldn't fly far here.

Agreed, we can discuss our pwBPD intentions, yes, good.

Science and evil don't mix, not quantitative or measurably qualitative, agreed.

I was loosely stating that we all know what the word conjures up when we mention it and how it applies to people and actions.  In this sense the word evil being used as an adjective only.

Unsubscribed power over someone, no, not part of my definition.


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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2019, 01:26:29 AM »

This is a great discussion. It really makes you think “Nurture vs Nature”  What lenfan and Skip had to say really has made me think.
Many times I  have felt my XDIL is evil but if I peel back the layers and I am honest with myself I know her mother was that way, and now my SGD is that way. It has to be a little of both, “nurture and nature”. What I find very interesting is the fact that there seems to be so many  people who sufer from this, or is it that we are just more aware of it?  It seems every time I tell someone our story they say it’s happening to them or they know someone who is going through It too.
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2019, 09:41:44 AM »

What I find very interesting is the fact that there seems to be so many  people who sufer from this, or is it that we are just more aware of it?  It seems every time I tell someone our story they say it’s happening to them or they know someone who is going through It too.

when i told my story to a friend of mine, he suddenly concluded that every single one of his exes had BPD 

clinical BPD affects approximately 2-2.5% of the population. what theres a lot more of out there is BPD traits, immaturity, dysfunctional relationships.
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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2019, 10:06:23 AM »

once removed,

You hit the nail on the head, as we know more about the triats, we suddenly try to associate them with past experience of certain behaviors.

The clinical #'s you quoted are actual diagnose stats, what do you think is the real % of people in society that are BPD that are not taken into account?  Especially given the rarity of them seeking help without some major circumstance leading them to do so?

Outside of BPD, the traits (immaturity, insecurity etc.) aren't they just what they are?

I can look back at most women and blame some traits they have had only to make myself feel better, I think it's kinda natural to cast blame...reality is, 1 finger at them and 3 at myself.

I would do that and say they had this deficiency or that undeveloped trait, now I am so engulfed with BPD and a pwBPD, it adds a different spin, more of a lopsided view that I eventually need to shake, I'm using it as a filter, a looking glass unnecessarily.
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2019, 10:24:18 AM »

The clinical #'s you quoted are actual diagnose stats, what do you think is the real % of people in society that are BPD that are not taken into account?  

This is a decent resource:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66448

There are two highly publicized data points. 1.9% which was an early projection. 5.9% which came from a large NIH study. No one tracks diagnoses on a national level - there is no national database like there is for STDs.

The NIH study also concluded:
      Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) that prevalence in men is the same as women.
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) BPD was more prevalent among Native American men, younger and separated/divorced/windowed adults, and lower income and education.
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) BPD was less prevalent among Hispanic men and women, and Asian women.
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) the study details many other conclusions such as BPD prevalence was greatest among people with bipolar disorder (50%), panic disorder, or drug dependence.  Smokers were also more likely to have BPD.
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) 24% had comorbidity with another personality disorder.  The rates of NPD/BPD and ASPD/BPD were higher among women.
 Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) the greatest decline was seen after 44 years old.

Based on surveys, we estimate that that 60% of the partners described on these boards are below the threshold for a clinical diagnosis, but have traits.

Nina Brown makes an interesting comment in her book on NPD. She says that few of us are dealing with people that would qualify for a diagnosis... but that people with traits can be very difficult nonetheless.
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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2019, 10:34:17 AM »

The clinical #'s you quoted are actual diagnose stats, what do you think is the real % of people in society that are BPD that are not taken into account?  Especially given the rarity of them seeking help without some major circumstance leading them to do so?

i take the numbers at face value.

i think that part of the confusion when it comes to BPD is that you can be much lower on the spectrum (wouldnt qualify for a diagnosis) and at the same time even be a lot more difficult person than someone with clinical BPD. i know one person with clinical BPD, she is constantly in and out of crisis and on suicide watch, its very sad, and people tend to give her a wide berth. i know lots of people that are "BPDish", attractive people that are high functioning but can be very difficult for those close to them, immature, and are train wrecks in romantic relationships. clinical BPD is usually much more obvious, the level of dysfunction much higher.

its that level of dysfunction, typically coupled with a major circumstance (eating disorder, suicide attempt, highly dangerous impulsive behavior, that kind of thing) that involves clinical BPD and tends to lead to a diagnosis.

most of us are dealing/dealt with someone with subclinical BPD.

Excerpt
Spectrum of Severity  It is important to know that personality disorders are spectrum disorders, meaning that there is a broad range or spectrum of severity.

    High Functioning  At the less severe end of the spectrum, where many of our family members would be classified, the severity might be better described as personality style or traits of BPD or NPD. Surely you know someone that is pretty narcissistic, but not dysfunctional or mentally ill .

    Low Functioning  At the more severe end of the spectrum are people in crisis, some suicidal, some unable to hold employment, some estranged from their families, addiction problems, etc.

How much conflict we experience is not necessarily a measure of the severity of the disorder or an indication of the challenges to recover. A person with only a few traits can be very hurtful or destructive in relationships. At the same time, a person with a severe disorder can be less so; more internally focused or avoidant.
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« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2019, 12:55:49 PM »

Thank you Skip and once removed,

Your words, info give me perspective.  When I started looking into what the issue was and I ended up here, I saw things in black and white regarding whether she is/she isn't.  A desperate measure for an ah-ha moment which fluctuates between she is a disorder, she has parts of the disorder/disorders or she is just a woman with "issues"...

I would try to rubber stamp it in order to say, ok problem found, now we/I can fix it.  Confusion, disappointment and frustration...blame the disorder/blame the woman...shouldn't be blaming anything really.

I would have to say she has traits of both NPD/BPD, some extreme, some not.  The total emotionless showing of someone that lacks empathy, almost zero empathy is something most difficult to ignore/rationalize, she knows it, has probably heard it from other guys in short term rs that were disastrous.

I think only total lack of empathy which appears to be more NPD than BPD can lead to the sheer cruelty that I've endured.  Almost like a total lack of conscience.

Evil behavior...
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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2019, 04:22:11 PM »

I agree with Harri. We go back because of what is in us. Maybe there is evil attached to BPD. The parents that raised them. Looking further back, their parents’s, etc. BPD isn’t evil. You were susceptible to it just like the rest of us. Let’s get real here. pwPBD are unwell, not evil. They don’t like who they are. They want to, but they can’t. They have a very limited tolerance for empathy. Evil is a big word. The mother of my son is not evil. Again, that’s a big word. I’ve not read the whole thread. Please explain evil.
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2019, 12:46:48 PM »

The evil part for me was constantly being drawn back in without a rational explanation in my mind. No matter how much I tried to cut the cord the pull was to powerful to let go.
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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2019, 01:01:04 PM »

Mindfried, I get where you’re coming from. These people aren’t evil. They don’t know how to be who they wish to be. They depend on others to do that for them. We didn’t know that going in. We’re also not capable of propping them up. That’s up to them. Some pretty dark stuff can happen further down the spectrum. Evil resides there. It doesn’t here.

What are you currently trying to get through? How are you feeling?
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2019, 01:57:50 PM »

Thank you JNChell. I am good. Not trying to work through anything anymore. I thought a lot about this and thought it was a good topic of discussion. The one takeaway to me is we continue to live in a blameless society. People are responsible for their actions. Unless you have been determined to be insane, which from my readings BPD people are not they should be held responsible for their actions. I am responsible for my actions and my ex udBPD was responsible for hers.

There is good and evil inherent in all of us. IMO there is an evil factor, even if it is slight with the experience I had in a BPD relationship. When one person screws with another persons mind there is evil involved. You may not agree and take offense to the word. What would you call and still hold that person responsible for their actions?
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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2019, 02:24:30 PM »

Thanks for bringing up a blameless society. Up to you if you want to move forward with that.
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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2019, 02:32:04 PM »

I wouldn’t say that we’re a blameless society there’s plenty of social justice.

Where do you want to be on this chart Mindfried?

From Victim to Survivor toThriver
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« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2019, 02:48:26 PM »

I would say after the BPD relationship I was a survivor and now a thriver. I did strive to be a thriver but the BPD relationship took its emotional toll on me for a while and I feel I have come out on the other side and starting to truly thrive.
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« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2019, 02:57:54 PM »

Every body is different and has a situation that is unique to them. I didn’t know about emotional abuse and being a victim of emotional abuse the thought crossed my mind just after we split but I wasn’t going to assume this role of being a victim. No way.

You’re talking about being powerless, wanting to blame your ex there’s a time for that and there’s a time to move on from victim to survivor to thriver.

With all due respect I don’t think that you’re quite there yet, I’m not saying that you can’t attain it but I’d take a hard look at myself and really think about what I control, what choices that I have and who has power over that.
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« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2019, 03:29:24 PM »

Thank you Mutt on your assessment but with all due respect back at you, you don't know me or what I do on a daily basis or where I have come from. I posted an opinion on a message board for a topic of discussion. I looked at things from a different perspective. I looked at BPD from a spiritual  side as I posted a topic about karmic souls and one from the side of an unknown force that draws us back in and I felt it was evil. Anyone and I mean anyone who screws with another persons mind and is not diagnosed as insane has an evil component to them. You can agree or disagree. It's just my opinion. I am happy, healthy, conflict free, at peace, helpful and empathetic of others, have a healthy relationship, etc. Just posting here to try to help others and they have helped me.
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« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2019, 04:55:10 PM »

Anyone and I mean anyone who screws with another persons mind and is not diagnosed as insane has an evil component to them. You can agree or disagree.

That is probably a better description of the philosophy at Quora    Most of us are here to discuss and learn from one another. When put the priority on exploring all sides of a topic rather than debating it.  I hope that helps (as a general statement).

M. Scott Peck (MD, assistant chief of psychiatry and neurology in the office of the surgeon general in Washington, D.C.) wrote a book called "People of the Lie" (1998). Late in his career Peck became a clergyman and he tried to link the Biblical concept of evil to a psychology condition. The book is famous and controversial.

Peck describes evil people as being aware of their conscience, but actively choosing to ignore it, as opposed to a sociopathic person who appears to be devoid of conscience altogether. In other words, an evil person knows that they are doing evil, while a sociopath does not, even though their actions may be very similar.

Peck describes evil as “militant ignorance”. Evil people are obsessed with maintaining their self-image of perfection through self-deception. In addition, evil people will be very selective about who they inflict their evil upon, while going to great lengths to maintain an image respectability and normality with everyone else. As a result, evil people are often well liked by the majority, and their victims come across as being overly sensitive, having a persecution complex, or even being crazy.

Evil people, unable to face the painful reality of their character, will often place themselves in positions of power, or moral superiority.

Dostoyevsky felt that all men are capable or both good and depraved. A man is inherently and simultaneously good and evil. In Crime and Punishment, Dostoyevsky explores a life of a man who commits murders and the struggles with who he is. The murder made perfect practical sense. He did it and was not caught. Everything was perfect, except it wasn't and the man struggled.

These are pretty lofty philosophical constructs.

To Peck, Hitler is evil as he killed 11 million people. Stalin killed 3 million. It's easy to say they are evil.

A members boyfriend killed his Cat in a fit of anger. Evil?

Some hackers hacked this website several years ago and we spent thousands to recover in 24 hours. Evil?

One of my ex girlfriends broke up with me on Christmas eve as we were waiting to take a flight at the airport. Evil?

My current girlfriend is lovely. But, I have seen her act in spite a few times. Evil?

Dostoyevsky might ask - when you look in the mirror, do you see  that you have been evil?



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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2019, 03:20:48 AM »

Beautifully written Skip. I've copied and pasted that to keep.

The Shack, addresses this very point when the main character meets 'Judgement'.


Date: 2017Minutes: 8:18

The Shack - Judgment

Looping back a bit to the high functioning low functioning point that was made earlier. Would we deem a low functioning pwBPD as sick and helpless, but we might deem a high functioning pwBPD as Evil... the differentiating point being that the low functioning suicidal, self harming, alcoholic is visibly destroying themselves but the high functioning is destroying the people closest to them. Even in the latter case, that very same person may well be regarded as a victim by others seeing their life from a different perspective.

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« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2019, 06:01:57 AM »

I can only speak from experience. S4’s mom is not an evil person. I’ve been in several toxic relationships. None of these women are evil. If they are, then I am as well. S4’s mom is surviving and will most likely never thrive. I hope that I’m wrong about that. She is doing what she feels she has to do to get by and is living in the ways that she learned. Our Son loves her deeply. She knows what she knows and isn’t interested in expanding on that.

Skip broadened this topic very well. Evil is a big word. We should use it responsibly.
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« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2019, 02:24:57 PM »

Let’s say if you try your very best at raising your child, there’s always going to be curve balls thrown at you things that you don’t anticipate. You have a good r/s with your child and you start to notice BPD traits from your child.

Now would that make your child evil?

I hope I didn't imply that any person, especially a child, was evil in and of themselves. I was thinking of "Evil" more in terms of an outside malevolent force, as opposed to the kind of evil that may reside in us all to some degree or another. The original post questioned whether evil was "involved' in some way. The word "involve" could encompass many things and to many different degrees. I think the original poster might be on to something with speculation in that direction, but I don't know what it is. I just think the concept of evil is worth considering in this context, even if we ultimately dismiss the notion.

So, in the scenario you outline, I absolutely do not think what you describe would make my child evil.   At some point though I would probably wonder if there was some kind of outside "evil" involved in my child's situation and consider whether or not prayer or some other spiritual response would be a helpful tool.  Maybe it's all hocus-pocus. But, I do wonder if there's something to it.
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« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2019, 04:34:45 PM »

What strikes me about this thread is the danger of lumping everyone suffering from BPD into one homogenized group.  People who suffer from BPD are just as individual as we are. 

Did Dream Come True illicit some traits which might be predictable for someone suffering from BPD?  Of course.  Could you tell me anything else about her from simply knowing I suspect she suffers from BPD?  No.

When I read the title of this thread I did a quick dive into the likelihood of BPD having a comorbidity with psychopathic traits.  NPD is, from my reading a common comorbidity, but I had not considered psychopathy until seeing this thread.  It is as fascinating as anything else one can read -there have been some good studies.

My point being are some people with BPD evil?  Without a doubt.  Why?  Because there are millions of people who suffer from BPD and I would bet my last dollar at least one of these people is evil (just playing the odds here) 

People are people.  Some people are evil.  I do not believe having BPD would be any sort of a predictor for evil behavior.

I have spent a lot of time on Quora reading what people suffering from BPD have to say.  It was important for me to 'walk a mile' in Dream Come True's shoes.  To try to see the world through the lens she had thrust upon her during her tragic childhood.  To read about people railing against this disorder from the inside -devastated because they pushed another loved one away. 

Most of us got our clocks cleaned in these relationships -but I never saw any evil. I saw a young woman doing whatever she could to stop her pain momentarily -even if these actions would eventually bring much greater pain.

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« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2019, 04:51:23 PM »

Wicker Man, I had a wonderful conversation today with a woman that has Dissociative Identity Disorder. It’s a PD. She’s a wonderful woman to talk to.

I agree. Lumping everyone into a basket is dangerous and irresponsible. I’d like to narrow it down further. It’s not people suffering from BPD. It’s people suffering from trauma in their own way. Just my take from what I’ve learned.
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« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2019, 12:15:06 AM »

Wow. I came to this board a few years ago after being puzzled by my then girlfriend, now wife, soon to be ex-wife’s, bizarre behaviour.

I was amazed by the similarity in everyone’s story about their relationships with their BPD person and remarked to my sister that it’s almost like some entity is controlling them all.

Good to see a healthy discussion on the subject.
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« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2019, 04:49:37 AM »

Well said Wicker Man. BPD is a debilitating heartbreaking mental illness. Only once have I heard my partner try to describe the deep dark hole inside himself, his abject fear of loss, he described it as “his incompleteness as a person, but couldn’t describe what was missing, as he said how can you explain nothingness. I cried for him, still do. Naturally it was a once only discussion, once in 4 years, all the rest of the time it’s my fault and there’s nothing wrong with him. . It’s not a bloody lifestyle choice, it’s a mental illness, no one wants it. Sufferers of BPD are not evil, I think that’s actually a hideous thing to say. I have been hurt so much and so badly but never ever would I call him evil. There are so many different degrees of BPD, some much worse than others, all difficult and painful for themselves and their families, husbands, wives, children, lovers but Evil, no I don’t believe it. They are ill, not idiots, imagine the extra pain you are piling on if you describe them as evil, it’s inhuman. In fact I think whoever thinks to describe these poor souls as evil is in fact evil themselves. Sorry, maybe a bit strong that’s how I feel.
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« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2019, 10:05:59 AM »

I looked up Evil on Wikipedia and they describe elements that are commonly associated with personal forms of evil involve unbalanced behaviour involving anger, revenge, fear, hatred, psychological trauma, expediency, selfishness, ignorance, destruction or neglect. We all have our own personal experiences in relationships. You can determine for yourself if you have experienced any of the above traits or elements.
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« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2019, 11:17:08 AM »

When I began reading this thread I looked up evil in the OED

evil
ADJECTIVE

1. Profoundly immoral and wicked.
‘his evil deeds’
‘no man is so evil as to be beyond redemption’

For me the concept of evil comes down to intent.  I cannot be mad at Dream Come True, because it would be like being mad at a cat for being a cat.  I have no anger -just plenty of sadness for her.

She was, from my observation, just trying to make it through the day.  Yes... her coping mechanisms were dysfunctional, confusing and sometime incredibly painful -but I saw neither evil nor forethought or any sort of planning in her behavior for that matter. --No intent.

If there had been any sort of Machiavellian evil plan she would have simply waited 1 more week before ending our relationship -I was one week away from sending a large money transfer to buy her and her grandparents a house.  Then a break up would have done me life altering harm.

I have always looked at this as proof positive that there was no grand design to the mayhem she creates.  She is, in my opinion, a leaf blown about in an emotional tempest often beyond her control or even conception.

After our relationship was done she posted on Instagram a picture of a 'Hello I'm' sticker (like one people would wear at a conference).  Instead of her name it said 'trying my best'.  I really believe she was.

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« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2019, 11:53:38 AM »

Wicker Man, I can relate to the conclusion of our exes just trying to make it through the day. Surviving in the only ways that they knew how. I also believe that it is too ingrained, and perhaps too frightening for them to step outside of that box, and that any encouragement or coercion to do so is met with hostility. I’m not trying to minimize or undermine other’s experiences, I’m simply relating.

I imagine that there is an element of evil when the spectrum and comorbity come into play and where an individual is with themselves in relation. Being made to think that they’re evil or bad is what put them there. Trauma is a wild beast. Conforming to it can cause things like BPD. Not conforming to it can cause things like C-PTSD. IMHO, trauma and it’s effects need to be recognized. How can we raise awareness? I don’t have a solid answer, but I think that we can find one as a community.
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« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2019, 12:19:35 PM »

I think for clarity purposes, there are different levels of severity for BPD. I believe that a person with a high level or severe BPD is truly suffering from mental illness and not intentionally evil. From my observation, in my relationship, my ex was very high functioning and aware. So based on that and based on her constant and endless mind games I felt there was an evil component involved. I take responsibility for constantly going back to her over a 4 year period but I also felt there was something more going on in the spiritual world that kept drawing in me back in, in addition to the psychological aspect. I am not placing blame on her, I just looked at things from a different perspective and other possibilities and feel there was an outside source/force involved. Maybe evil, maybe something else. Evil is the word I came up with and looking at my original post I stated it would not be politically correct. My adult children had shared a few vacations with my ex and myself and after the final break-up they, along with their friends who were also on vacation said they nicknamed her Satan. They made independent observations of her behaviour. I am not saying this is right, I am saying it is something to think about and consider in your own relationship and situation.
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« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2019, 12:31:14 PM »

I just looked at things from a different perspective and other possibilities and feel there was an outside source/force involved. Maybe evil, maybe something else.

It's a loaded word for sure, Mindfried.

Stepping away from the word (sometimes that helps). The Wikipedia entry you cited makes the point that there are multiple definitions and that always makes dicusuuions hard when a word has vast meanings (e.g., boundaries, abuse, etc.).

Is the core of what you are saying is that you believe that that there was an outside source/force involved . The force caused her to do hurtful things. The force pulled you back into the relationship multiple times after you left.

Do I have that right?

Have you experienced this in other aspects of your life?
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« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2019, 01:04:56 PM »

Yes evil is a loaded word and means different things to different people. No I have not experienced this in any way shape or form throughout my life in anyway what so ever. This was a totally new experience for me. I believe her actions towards me had an evil component to them. Like I have previously stated anyone who screws with someones mind on an hourly, daily , weekly, etc basis has to take some type of responsibility. If evil is not the appropriate word than I am open to other explanations other than full psychological ones. I do take responsibility for constantly going back to her but again there was something different about not being able to cut the cord with her no matter how hard I tried. This is just my personal experience but like I said many of the posts and experience are similar so it is food for thought.
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« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2019, 01:09:08 PM »

PC aside, how does a dog react to new people that has been abused? How does the same dog react to the person that is holding it’s leash? Is the dog evil, or is protecting itself in its own perceived way? I’d say it’s protecting itself. It’s uncertain, so it doesn’t take any chances. It simply bites to eliminate any chance of being hurt.
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« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2019, 01:27:19 PM »

Thank you JNChell. I understand your point, I just think a dogs brain and a humans brain are different. I am no longer there anymore in regards to cord cutting. As I have stated I have moved on and this was a topic of discussion to consider alternative views. I am perfectly clear you do not like the word evil in relation to someone with BPD. You feel because of some type of trauma the person with BPD suffered they are not responsible for their actions and their actions are a result of that trauma. You feel the reason we stay is because of our own issues that we must explore and face and the BPD person should bear no responsibility.
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« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2019, 01:44:11 PM »

I didn’t say that the person with BPD should bare no responsibility. I said the opposite. This thread has grown a great amount of fruit. It’s been very insightful, you think? It’s been kept open by the moderators. That says something. You and I have a different view. That’s all. I think that’s ok. I don’t know how to compare my relationship with your’s. I think that that is ok too. Maybe comparing notes is a good option.

We can argue over evil until our eyes are bloodshot, or we can lay down our swords and agree that we see things differently. Friendships are under the flag of understanding another person. I think that we’ve both made our points.
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« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2019, 01:50:37 PM »

Is the core of what you are saying is that you believe that that there was an outside source/force involved . The force caused her to do hurtful things. The force pulled you back into the relationship multiple times after you left.

Do I have that right?

Do you agree with this. I'm paraphrasing what you said earlier. Do you feel there was an out force acting on you?  Acting on her?

To me, this is the most significant question. It's not about semantics.

It speaks to our lives going forward - how we navigate the world in the future.
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« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2019, 02:05:44 PM »

Yes Skip based on my experience with her I do believe there was an outside force at work on both ends. I have never experienced anything like it in any way shape or form in my life time. I believe there was the psychological aspect as well.

JNChell yes I agree we see things differently and that is okay. I am not looking to argue or debate. Our experiences with our exes are mostly likely similar in some ways and different in others. Differing opinions is what makes the world go round. Like I have repeatedly said this discussion is to look at things from an alternative perspective. IMO we should look at things from all angles or perspectives.

I appreciate the administrators such as yourself keeping the discussion up as it seems to be an important one.
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« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2019, 02:14:14 PM »

the question to me, if there is an outside force that can have that power over us, becomes: what stops it from happening again?
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« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2019, 02:24:53 PM »

Once removed: Do you believe in God? God is an outside force that cannot be seen but billions of people believe in.

Positive and negative energy cannot be seen but billions of people believe in it.

Just because you cannot see something does not mean its not there.

JNChell I believe there was an evil component to her for lack of a better word but not the type of evil that would kill , physically harm or commit heinous crimes. She was a law abiding citizen.
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« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2019, 02:29:44 PM »

Yes Skip based on my experience with her I do believe there was an outside force at work on both ends. I have never experienced anything like it in any way shape or form in my life time.

Thanks. I asked the question for a reason. And no, I'm not trying to talk you out of your belief - I'm exploring with you.

Do you believe in God?

In Torah the metaphor for evil is darkness. Like darkness, Evil has no power of its own. From where, then, does it derive the power to cause so much pain in the world?

Many religious scholars feel that the power comes from us. We are all exposed to evil on a regular basis. Evil often makes a lot of sense. I need money. There is something I can steal and get away with it. Why not?

That battle is within us... everyday in some cases.

Does this fit or make sense for what you experienced from her?

Does this fit or make sense for the what your experienced with yourself?

PS. I'm not Russian or Jewish - btw - I'm reaching across the span for the common theme.
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« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2019, 02:45:37 PM »

Skip the day I met her I shook her hand and we both felt a transfer of energy go through us from the handshake. After months of developing a friendship we went out on a date and she brought up how she felt energy transfer between us. No BS I told her I felt the same thing. I am the most sceptical person you would know when it comes to these things but I cannot deny what I felt that day and unbeknown to me until our first date she felt the same exact thing. She brought it up unsolicited by me. There were many things similar to this that went on throughout our relationship such as calling about or texting the same things simultaneously. Our kids shared same birthdates. Her ex husbands birthday is on the same day my father passed away. There is alot of stuff that made me take pause to question. I am fully aware that there is good and evil inherent in us and it is us who feeds our own demons. I am pasted this relationship but I do enjoy the board and learning more about others experiences and sharing my own in hopes of helping those in emotional pain. I was deeply deeply wounded and I am no kid.
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« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2019, 02:56:28 PM »

I was deeply deeply wounded and I am no kid.

As were so many of us. I appreciate your thoughts. We are all here to learn and grow.
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« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2019, 03:02:29 PM »

Once removed: Do you believe in God? God is an outside force that cannot be seen but billions of people believe in.

i do. so i also believe in an outside force. i believe in evil too.

my question though is, if human beings (your ex, my ex, whomever) have that kind of ability, do we have any power or say over whether all of this happens again?
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« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2019, 03:19:11 PM »

Yes I believe we all have a say and ultimately that is why the relationship ended for good. If an evil component was involved it was beaten in the end and if it happens again I would hope I have the life experience and tools to get out and not let it have the same effect that it did in the past.
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« Reply #71 on: March 27, 2019, 03:28:15 PM »

i think we can all agree on that. hear hear!
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« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2019, 04:05:15 PM »

I think we need to talk about it with like minded people. We can talk to therapists which is fine but I do not think there is any substitute for people who suffer from the same issues and who can shed light and share experiences. Thank you all I think this has been a very informative and productive discussion.
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« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2019, 05:31:57 AM »

Hello everybody peeps,

Is this perception of an evil force actually our own predisposition to splitting. We take the good parts of a situation, relationship or event and say, "that's real, that's us connecting", then we take the negative elements, and in a cognitive dissonance way (since it conflicts with our perceived idealised view of the individual) reject that these came from the same person. Since we have to apportion 'blame' and 'shame' for these behaviours to someone or something and can't find anything tangible (on the basis we can't apportion them to our partners) we apportion them to an evil 'spirit'. We have in essence split the relationship/event. Acceptance that the bad and the good come from the same individual and the same relationship, and that although we struggle to comprehend the motivations which lead someone to behave in such a way, that good person we idealise is also capable of behaving in incredibly destructive ways. Ultimately we haven't yet perfected the lens with which we are able to "see through their eyes" with.

For me, BPD was like an enigma machine, it explained behaviours and allowed me to adjust my lens such that I could see through her eyes. I could see how at times we connected VERY DEEPLY and at times it would appear that our relationship was thriving. However, at the same time I can see how our relationship in her eyes was disastrous, how I appeared abusive and how I appeared abusive to our children TO HER. Similarly, I can see how and why she behaves in response to this in the way she does. It's behaviour that I might consider being wrong or even evil, but it's her and her unique way she see's her emotional landscape and responds accordingly. The hardest part to work out is how she can maintain the distance between her fantasy (who she thinks she is and how she thinks she behaves) and reality (actual behaviour, facts and events)... that gap is where maybe evil resides.

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« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2019, 10:48:12 AM »

Hi Enabler,

I think everyone has made good points and came at this interesting topic from different perspectives and different types of relationships. I think the struggle has been with the word Evil and how we interpret it as it relates to BPD. All good points and a good way to look at it in your post.
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« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2019, 11:43:37 AM »

There were many things similar to this that went on throughout our relationship such as calling about or texting the same things simultaneously.

Our kids shared same birthdates.

Her ex husbands birthday is on the same day my father passed away. There is alot of stuff that made me take pause to question.

I am fully aware that there is good and evil inherent in us and it is us who feeds our own demons.

Hello Mindfried & 99,

I've been following this thread for weeks now… so here is my two cents… as you describe above, matching birthdays/events = numbers… I wrote somewhere the other day, about how I think… the universe we live in, perfect order and all, is all about "numbers"… I have had, in my life the same as you describe, as in; the same numbers, or sequence of numbers, reappearing over and over… I remember before cell phones (first marriage)… picking up the phone to call my wife, and it had no dial tone, because she was doing the same at the other end, at the exact same time… weird?… basically dial, no ring, and she was right there, this happened numerous times… also the "gut instinct"… I'd get "feelings" about something, and it would come true (to an extent)… this still happens to me even today… then there is "dé jà vu"… this happens to me all the time, sometimes transference of dreams…

For example… last Friday, I'm driving back to LaGuardia to catch a plane, from Newburgh… I'm "downtown"… following my iPhone gps… and I'm sitting there at a light, and I look over, and see row houses, apartments, and a vacant lot, its all half torn down, "bad neighborhood"… and that look of that lot, and the wall of the tenant beside it… I was like whoa… I dreamed about this, weeks and week sago… I was walking through and area exactly like this in my dream .. it was vivid… hmmm, riddle me that!

I had never been in this area before in my entire life, in fact that work trip where I arrived and returned to LaGuardia, was the very first time I'd ever been to New York in my life… so yeah, wow...

One more and I'll quit… as far as evil, being in a person, as in perhaps some form of possession… in 2006, I got back from Japan, wife at the time (now ex)… had left me, left our home, and taken the kids to my moms… and she had run off with OM, who had just gotten out of prison… he was her sisters, husbands cousin… yeah I know, sounds like a country song… continuing… so in the midst of all this, I reached out to her… and said "lets get you some help"… this could be a very long story, but not now… she has (had) many many issues, she was abused as a child, I'll stop right there… so I take her to go see a counselor, therapist, an old high school mate of mine, her mother was the counselor… so wife goes to see her, at my behest… it only lasts one session… total meltdown… wife flees… its to much, she freaked out… so I go to see Mrs. "B"… Mrs. "B sits me down, closes the door… this is a Christian Counseling Center… she looks ashen… my heart begins to race… and she says to me…

"Red, I've known you since you were in kindergarten with my daughter… I knew your Grandparents… and I think I know you… this woman, you've been married to, had these kids with… you need to just let her go, I know you don't want to, but I'm telling you, you need to let her go… she was just here, in this office, and she actually scared me… she took her file/notes from right here off my desk, said "she cant do this" and she left, and she took the file, which is indeed strange… now I have to tell you, I've been doing this for over thirty years, and this has only happened a few times, but Red, I felt something here, with her, a presence, a presence of pure evil … ok, do you understand… tell me that you understand Red… (I did)... (then Mrs. "B" says)… LET HER GO!"… Mrs. "B" took my hand and squeezed it, and started praying, right then and there… her eyes shut tight… then she said to "get those kids and get out of here"… and I left her office… I was pretty shook up… even now.

That was in January of 2006… its a true story… take it for what's its worth…

So yes, I believe… there is evil in this world, and it takes victims… my ex wife was, and still is to this very day, still a victim… that family... her family, was evil… all of them… "generational"… I will say one more thing… I think that God gives us missions to fulfill on this earth, my ex was a mission… fwiw… my very existence, how I got here (born) was a total accident, a fluke… never should have happened… I think I took the "last available train" to even have gotten here… even lived so to speak… another long story… this is why I abhor abortion… I'll leave that right there.

I had a gf after the divorce, before I met my current wife… she was a redhead… she was something else… her anniversary (previous marriage)… was the same day as my ex wife's birthday (numbers again)… my current wife, her ex anniversary, previous marriage, is the same day as a very "prominent" event/date in my own life… again; math you see… numbers… its all about numerology… I also think that God has a huge sense of humor… I do.

Red5

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« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2019, 12:47:22 PM »

Hi Red,

Recurring numbers have to do with your guardian angel trying to communicate with you. Such at 11 11, 222, 333, 444, 555 etc. You can look it up and you will see what they are trying to tell you. Look up recurring numbers and you will see what I mean.

Pure EVIL-Wow. I don't think my ex was pure evil but I do think like you, you have to experience it for people to understand.
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« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2019, 01:17:48 PM »

Hi Red, Recurring numbers… 555,

Triple Nickel, or '555' ~> means "Angels overhead", or "near".

~Red5

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« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2019, 02:19:15 PM »

Skip, as I understand, evil might be described as an absence of good in the Hebrew scriptures.

Personally, I come from a Christian background and think that there are outside forces that seek to influence people to act in certain ways. (authorities in the spiritual realms) - there is more going on than just what we can perceive with our natural senses. The choice of whether or not to act on those forces always lies within the individual.

I have had friends who have commented to me that my h had a presence of "pure evil", too - they don't think he's a safe person for me to be around. He is an ordained deacon in his former church (long story), and as part of that ordination process, we had to go through a week-long intensive healing prayer ministry. Our ministers mentioned the struggles with a demonic force that he seemed to have. After the week, we were talking about it, and h said he NEVER wanted to go back. He also didn't complete the aftercare to keep those forces at bay. 

About 6 months later, h became very unstable. There was a situation the catapulted us into a new reality. I had a deep sense that there was an evil presence that was intent on death and destruction that was making my h's mental health even worse.

All that said, I don't think that people are just pawns of these forces or that there is not a greater power at work. I also think that there are biological and social factors that are often enough to produce symptoms of BPD in a person.
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« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2019, 03:17:54 PM »

Personally, I come from a Christian background and think that there are outside forces that seek to influence people to act in certain ways. (authorities in the spiritual realms) - there is more going on than just what we can perceive with our natural senses. The choice of whether or not to act on those forces always lies within the individual.

...a presence of "pure evil",

...struggles with a demonic force.

...wanted to go back...complete the aftercare to keep those forces at bay.  

...a deep sense that there was an evil presence that was intent on death and destruction that was making mental health even worse.

I have come to believe that some of us, have a "sixth" sense… we have over time, or else been "blessed" with this ability, to "feel"… feel unseen things around us.

Ever pass someone in the store, on the street… and the hair on the back of your neck stands up… ever feel like someone or something is watching you, "just got a feeling" about something.

I am going to go out on a limb here… this may sound a bit "garish'… but I've been in a certain person(s) presence, and it came over me… this person is not long for this world… and a few weeks, months later, they passed... this has happened several times now to me… and quite frankly it scares the $hit out of me ; (

I don't like this… but its there, like a shadow…

As I said… this has happened to me several times over the last decade… at least after I divorced my first wife… ie' I disengaged from her ever present negative "energy"… and I was on my own for a while (five years)…

As empath wrote; there is more going on than just what we can perceive with our natural senses.

This is very true, to me anyways.

I've always been very superstitious as well…

I have started to wonder about (our) souls too, our "inner light"… do they (we) have different ages… meaning our soul, our "energy"… my first wife, I always felt she was much older than me as far as her soul, her energy always seemed "older" to me, when in fact I was older (earthy) than her, by about two years… may sound a bit crazy… my current wife, I feel her soul energy is much younger than mine.

This is just what I feel, cant really "explain it"… it just "is".

Ever come across a complete stranger, say at the bar/lounge at the airport, waiting for your flight to board, and you strike up a conversation with this total and complete stranger… and its though you've know this person before... the conversation just… "flows"… as if you have known each other your whole lives… all very strange (?).

… is there a connection, other than you both "just like to talk"?

Yes, there is way (wayyyy) more going on in this electric, mathematic universe than we can see with our physical senses…

Quick story… I had a cousin to pass away this past summer, she lived in California (we will call her Gina), I live in North Carolina… her Dad, my Uncle, Uncle "E", a Vietnam Veteran who flew jet fighters (Phantoms) in the Air Force, have always been close… he is pushing eighty now… my cousin was his oldest daughter of three… so this time frame… a Saturday morning, early, I am sleeping on the couch in the office at home, and at about seven thirty AM, I bolt wide awake, it was electric… my skin was tingling, I was like what the heck… and immediately… it comes over me that something is wrong, something's happened, and my Uncle "E", the Phantom II pilot… came into my mind full force… I was almost shaking… I had this overwhelming feeling that something has happened to him… bad, I thought, well he is older now… as all my Uncles and Aunts are, so… hmmm, this isn't good ; (

I got up, and walked out onto the back patio… trying to shake this off… about then, my cell rings… its another cousin, she lives in Florida, we will call her Kelly, she says "I hate to be the one to tell you "boot" (this is what she calls me, she used to be in the Navy, and gives he $hit about being a Jarhead)… Kelly says… Gina passed away about twenty minutes ago", (she had lung cancer)… to add more, my cousin's brother (we will call him Gary) is a hospice nurse, and he had been with her, as she had requested, up until the very end, as was my Uncle "E", right there with her.

So, I looked at the clock, noted the time, a little before eight AM east coast time.

I asked Kelly, "what time did Gina actually pass away?, Kelly says about four thirty AM I think, west coast time "boot";… "why"… she asked… I didn't say anything, I told her thank you for telling me, and that I'd pass it along… we hung up~

So there you go… that proves a lot to me… maybe, as we get older, that sense No.6 gets stronger… all I know is that I "felt a disturbance in the force" so to speak, and it woke me from a deep sleep, at about the same time as our beloved Gina slipped away, and I can only imagine the hurt, and extreme anguish that cousin Gary and Uncle "E" must have felt at that very moment, at the same time… it was transmitted out across our families "energy"… our family on has always been very close, sixteen grandchildren, eighteen great grand children... from eight children, the legacy that my Grandparents left us… we were taught love, and compassion, and fear of the Lord… Gary was also present, and listened as Granny's sweet but quite old heart beat its last, and she slipped off into to glory, she was ninety-one… back home in 1997… we are all right there, hanging onto her… after she had gone, we went outside, it was night time, and we picked some azalea blooms off, and placed them around her, they were her favorite… so you see there is a strong bond at work here…

One more line, and I'll shut up… evil, darkness, demonic forces… absolutely hate light, love, nurturing warmth, and absolute pure goodness… evil will seek to destroy this, if it cant, it will runaway... always and without fail… ever heard an old time Preacher "evoke" the name of Jesus… this is powerful stuff here we are talking about… very powerful,

That's all I got to say about that,

Red5

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« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2019, 12:47:02 PM »

Not sure what is happening to my post...  

 
Excerpt
evil, darkness, demonic forces … absolutely hate light, love, nurturing warmth, ... and absolute pure goodness … evil will seek to destroy this, if it cant, it will runaway ... always and without fail …

Yes...  destroy, eliminate, or run away and hide ...   It also hates truth spoken in love...  

I know the shadow, too...  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 12:53:31 PM by Harri, Reason: fixed quote » Logged
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« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2019, 08:11:42 AM »

The person with this disorder has a brain that is programmed with these behaviors and various coping mechanisms.  BPD tactics are very effective so I believe it gets reinforced within themselves as normal.

They are not evil in and of themselves.  My exBPDgf is actually a quite caring woman until you get close to her. 

Could an external evil entity be using a BPD to test and torment you? Possibly, yes

Is a BPD evil? Yes or no, it depends on the individual. 

It naturally seems quite evil to us.  We don't think the way they do.
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« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2019, 10:16:04 AM »

Is a BPD evil? Yes or no, it depends on the individual. 

It naturally seems quite evil to us.  We don't think the way they do.
The same could be said about any of the other clusters...over the centuries, many of these were not understood, hence what we read about throughout history… ie' possessions, exorcism were used to "explain", or "treat"… then over the years, many of these folk wound up in "sanitariums", or "asylums"… hidden away, and lost, invisible to society… albeit very interesting to read about today, yet all in all, an extremely sad history of the mentally, and emotionally misunderstood, "Lucy" is declared insane and sent to an asylum, where she endures traumatic shock treatments for her mental breakdown", we certainly have come a long way in the last two hundred years (?).

*paranoid personality disorder
*schizoid personality disorder
*schizotypal personality disorder

*antisocial personality disorder
*borderline personality disorder
*histrionic personality disorder
*narcissistic personality disorder

*avoidant personality disorder
*dependent personality disorder
*obsessive-compulsive personality disorder

Red5

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« Reply #83 on: April 03, 2019, 10:24:14 AM »

"Possessed" people no more
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« Reply #84 on: April 03, 2019, 08:06:40 PM »

Excerpt
that gap is where maybe evil resides.

Enabler posted some food for thought here. The “gap”. The gray area between black and white. At least that’s how I’m interpreting it. Maybe it’s a void. A blank space in development. Shifting back and forth without reason. Constantly hitting two walls without being able to slow down in between emotions.

Maybe that gap is made by trauma. Maybe that void is hard to step into to face the hard stuff. Some people can. Others can’t.

People become this way for a reason. It can be a multigenerational thing. I wonder why some turn out better than others.


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Brave heart. Braver brain.


« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2019, 03:33:04 PM »

Hey guys. Interesting little thread here. I'd like to chime in!

I'd like to clarify I do not believe in God, if that makes any difference. However, I fully respect those who chose to do so. In my mind, religion, spirituality and belief are strictly personal matters.

There's evil in everybody, and that can be a good thing, too. Now, people with BPD are no more outright malevolent than people without BPD, HOWEVER their personality disorder entails that they fear abandonment and that they are insecure and immature (at least, in terms of instictual reactions). This means that they are more likely to act selfishly or immaturely than the average person. In short, they are less capable of "controling" their "evil" than the average person. This, however, does NOT make them more evil than the average person.

To quote the thread title directly.

In my opinion, no, there is no "evil external force" involved in a BPD relationship.

I can't speak for anybody else, but me? I'm here for a reason.

And I realize than more than a victim, I've been a "conspirator" in my relationship with the person with BPD. I needed to feel needed. So, I felt safe. Why would a woman be with me other than that she needs me?

Had I had been a healthy individual, I would have paid close attention to the red flags and wouldn't have been with that person in the first place. So, I think healthy individuals rarely, if ever, get caught up in such relationships; the red flags stick out like a sore thumb.

Seems more like a ton of internal forces are at play here, rather than external ;)

But who knows?
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« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2019, 07:30:36 PM »

Seems more like a ton of internal forces are at play here, rather than external ;)

But who knows?

Just an exert, but very well said. Inside is where the heart of the matter for everything rests. Great post, Beneck.
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« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2019, 08:38:17 PM »

I used to think my exUBPDbf was evil.  I thought he planned all of his emotional manipulations to hurt me.  I had never experienced anything like it before.  When I began to learn as much as I could about the disorder for me it was the beginning of the gift of forgiveness. I was able to detach.  I no longer see it as evil.  Just people hurting very deeply inside. If there is one thing I know, hurt people, hurt people.

We had a chemistry between us for sure and he agrees with this. I saw him a few weeks ago and do you know what he said to me?  "If it makes you feel better this isn't easy for me either."  He is struggling too and he has empathy for me. If you listen to some accounts of what relationships are like for them they are just too painful.  We are a mass of triggers for them.  They have a higher emotional baseline with emotional wounds from an abusive childhood which were never resolved.  I do believe that emotions are energy that can get trapped inside us until we learn to acknowledge them and release them.  They will come out sideways and create all sorts of problems.  I used to experience this myself.  I would have sideways anger that would come out to an innocent bystander.  I started to become aware of this through recovery. 

Do I miss him?  Yes!  I miss the laughter we shared, I mostly miss the way I felt around him. With him I felt uninhibited.  I was able to let my guard down around him. I am still trying to understand why I felt like I could let my guard down around him. That doesn't happen with too many people for me.  That is what I miss the most.  Is missing someone evil?  No.  Not for me.  It's being human.  It's knowing that I loved someone with all my heart. 

The pull that was there for me was part being afraid to be alone, part afraid that I won't find someone that I can connect to again like I connected to him and part of my own comfortable co dependent role in relationships.  That's another story I am a work in progress.  Plus, I grew up around BPD so this probably felt normal to me with an instant connection much like I feel with my sister who has BPD diagnosed. She practically raised me. 

One day I know I am going to look back and say phew,  I dodged a bullet.  However, I am very grateful for the lessons that I have learned from this relationship.  I grew from it and I am a better person for it.  These are all good things. 

Keep focusing on the positive and all the lessons to be learned.

Tsultan

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« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2019, 05:30:40 AM »

The same could be said about any of the other clusters...over the centuries, many of these were not understood, hence what we read about throughout history


Precisely.

I've some friends who have been a couple for over 20 years. 

As my male friend's alcohol issues grew in magnitude, he became much more narcissistic.  Every single thing he does to my other friend is premeditated for effect.   She ALWAYS reacts exactly as he plans she would.  Nothing has changed in their relationship dynamic over the entire period other than their dysfunction growing worse.

What matters is what we allow others to do to us that we would never do to others. 

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