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Author Topic: FAQ: Is there an evil external force involved in a BPD relationship?  (Read 4099 times)
Mindfried
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« on: March 21, 2019, 10:49:20 AM »

I have said this all along and I understand it may not be politically correct but I believe there is some type of evil involved with BPD.

If you read everyone's experience on this board there are constant similarities involved with all of them.

There is more than a hint of evil in people with BPD. Just my humble opinion. Why do they continue to draw us back in no matter how much they mistreat us? And that is where I think there is some-type of evil involved. If we looked at this objectively after reading all these posts we are all idiots for putting up with this constant mistreatment but we do it and go back for more while they move on without a care in the world for our feelings or what they did to us.

And we miss them, and we pine for them, and we get sick to our stomachs, etc, etc, etc.

Evil.
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 11:34:55 AM »

There's a couple of series on Netflix called 'Story of Us' and 'Story of God' by Morgan Freeman. I've been watching it recently and I found some of the ideas interesting.

Many religions believe that Evil lies within us all, and this is very very true. It makes up our humanity. Good and God also lies within us all, interwoven in our humanity. It's that knife edge that we all live on which determines whether we do good or do evil.

If you think back to many humanitarian atrocities, these were committed by normal human-beings; Rwanda genocide, Nazi genocides, The Balatics, 9/11. These acts weren't necessarily committed out of emotional dysregulation but situational and society driven circumstances. When Evil is allowed to flow from humanity it can in the most heinous ways.

Emotional dysregulation is a powerful force which peels back the restraints of human kindness uncovering our inner demons.

Most of us are capable of these heinous acts even if we just don't know it yet, we shouldn't forget that.  

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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 12:20:15 PM »

I will check out both shows. It is an interesting topic to me as I have always believed there is a constant battle between good and evil that rages everyday in society. There is some type of force that constantly draws us back to the BPD partner even though we are all smart enough to know this person is not good for us in the long run. For a time, we are hurt mentally and emotionally and to the extreme physically so I try to look at all angles and the one observation I make is there seems to be an evil component to this.
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »

If we looked at this objectively after reading all these posts we are all idiots for putting up with this constant mistreatment but we do it and go back for more while they move on without a care in the world for our feelings or what they did to us.

I think that the point  is that we can only control ourselves and we can't control anyone else. I didn't go back because my ex had an influence over me I went back because I had really low self esteem, I had very poor boundaries, I didn't think that I deserved better and I wasn't assertive.

All of those qualities were there before I met my ex wife it was shaped many years before if anything influenced me it was the environment that I grew up in. I was emotionally abused which impacted my self esteem, self worth I didn't trust others and my r/s skills were poor because I had poor teachers (my parents) My exuBPDw wasn't there in my childhood I can't blame her for that.

That being said you take what you can learn from this experience so that you can become healthier and have healthier r/s's so that you don't find yourself with a similar partner in the future. Your quality of life becomes better when you practice good mental health which is not easy but worth it.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 02:32:46 PM »

Excerpt
you take what you can learn from this experience so that you can become healthier and have healthier r/s's so that you don't find yourself with a similar partner in the future.

Nicely said, Mutt.  As one becomes healthier in the aftermath of a BPD r/s, one attracts healthier partners, which can lead to greater happiness, in my view.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 02:57:11 PM »

All good points. Just looking at things from a different perspective. I don't believe anyone ever intentionally invites evil in and it comes in the disguise of overwhelming love and leaves us in a path of despair and destruction.
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 03:00:25 PM »

Excerpt
Why do they continue to draw us back in no matter how much they mistreat us? And that is where I think there is some-type of evil involved.


We go back to them because of what is within us.  Looking at it any other way, IMO, leaves us as perpetual victims with no power and no agency.  Hell no.

I do agree that we all have the capacity for evil within us.  some of us just have not had to confront that part of us yet and some have missed its existence within their self.  
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2019, 03:14:11 PM »

If that is true that we go back because it is what is within us than we would struggle with both the BPD and non BPD relationships. In my experience the BPD relationship is totally different than any relationship I experienced in the past. I have experienced break-ups before with someone I loved but never felt the same type of mental pain and anguish as the one with the BPD break-up. Roller coaster rides, constant walking on egg shells, constantly defending myself over false accusations, constant break-ups, etc but I was always drawn back in and never felt I had any control over why I was drawn back in. For me at 54 years old and well educated this was a totally different experience than anything before.
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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2019, 03:22:13 PM »

I think these relationships are 'different' because they touched things deep within our core, our deepest wounds and most vulnerable areas, and that is why they are so devastating to us.  Not because of any pull the pwBPD may have or we think they have.  IMO of course. 

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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2019, 03:30:38 PM »

Again, all good points. If you look at it that way, a person who is not deeply wounded like us from past experiences could have a relationship with a PWBPD and survive. It's an interesting discussion. I like to keep an open mind to all view points. Evil in my mind is still one of the factors and goes back to adam and eve.
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2019, 05:08:44 PM »

Thank you for posting a difficult topic. I believe we should always look first  to science, logic and conventional reasoning, but I can't help wondering if you are at least partly on to something here.

I wonder how much genetics plays a role in this. I wonder how much upbringing and trauma plays a role in this. I wonder if generational history and trauma plays a role. I wonder if nutrition and the physical environment plays a role. I wonder how much our own behaviors play a role.  I wonder how much of this is cultural. And, yes, sometimes I can't help but think there is something otherworldly, call it evil if you like, involved to some degree. I also wonder if the language of religion and the language of psychology some describe the same phenomena, but just approach it from different angles. (For example maybe the concept of inherited generational trauma is akin to generational curses.)

My upbringing was religious so I am predisposed to think spiritually as an adult. Religion also plays a big role in keeping me in my marriage. I don't fully believe all I was taught about religion as a child but, for me, some of those ideas stuck on an emotional level, even if I don't buy them intellectually anymore. They're not right for other people, but they are mine for whatever reasons.  That, along with family, children, finances and many other valid reasons, keep many of us in, or bring us back to, relationships that others might leave, without having to factor that we are under some kind of evil spell. Having said that, from what  I have seen firsthand, and have read here and in other places, that at times seems kind of spooky,  I can't help but wonder. Not that pwBPD and/or nons are evil, but maybe there is some kind of malevolent force that's acting  on both as well? It sounds far fetched, but I can't help but wonder.

If that's the case, my upbringing tells me that prayer can be a powerful help. If that's not the case, then at the very it least it can be like a meditation that eases stress. It has seemed to help me.  I will try and pray more. And, for what it's worth, Bless You All.
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2019, 09:59:23 AM »

I think these relationships are 'different' because they touched things deep within our core, our deepest wounds and most vulnerable areas, and that is why they are so devastating to us.  Not because of any pull the pwBPD may have or we think they have.  

Agree, Harri.  Confronting our wounds, and healing them, in my view, is what leads to growth in the aftermath of a BPD r/s.  

We go back to them because of what is within us.  Looking at it any other way, IMO, leaves us as perpetual victims with no power and no agency.  Hell no.

Yes to that, too, Harri.  We recycle when we still haven't healed the wounds within, in my view.  It takes a while for the hard lessons to sink in, or at least in my case it did.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2019, 10:56:46 AM »

Excerpt
Evil Genes? An Unconventional Perspective On BPD
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/resolution-not-conflict/201312/evil-genes-unconventional-perspective-BPD

"Why Rome fell, Hitler rose, and my sister stole my mother’s boyfriend."

Struggling with borderline pesonality disorder?  Or interacting often with someone whose frequent high-intensity emotions impinge on your well-being as well as theirs?  If so, Barbara Oakley’s book Evil Genes is likely to prove provocative, either positively or negatively.  Oakley suggests that the hurtful behaviors of some folks with borderline personality disorder sometimes cannot be fixed via individual or couples counseling because these patterns are hard-wired into the person’s genetic makeup.

Subtitled “Why Rome fell, Hitler rose, Enron failed and my sister stole my mother’s boyfriend,” Evil Genes may make you mad.  At the same time, the book offers a serious scientist's comprehensive review of neuroscientic, genetic and historical studies of borderline personality disorder (BPD). The result is a book that challenges psychologists like myself to consider the possibility that all BPD bad behavior is not necessarily due to childhood traumas alone.

Oakley gives evidence that genes are at the basis of some of the deceitful, manipulative and even sadistic behavior of borderline individuals.

Oaklely herself knows how to research a scientific question.  With a doctorate in the integrative discipline of systems engineering, as an associate professor of engineering at Oakland University in Michigan, and as a recent vice president of the world’s largest bioengineering society, Oakley has credentials as a scientist that lend serious credibility to her investigations.

Oakley also backs up her extensive scientific and historical explorations with her personal experience. As the subtitle of the book suggests, Oakley’s BPD sister—frequently stunned the family with outrageously selfish actions that had significantly injurious impacts on other family members.

One of the aspects of this book that I particularly like is that Oakley overcomes the conventional tendency of mental health professionals to use the term BPD to refer primarily just to women. Evil Genes utilizes this diagnosis to cover also the behavior of many men who would typically have been labeled abusive, sociopathic, narcissistic or with the label malignant narcissism without indication of the link between these behaviors and the hurtful behaviors of women who get labeled BPD.

The term BPD is clearly in flux.  How much overlap there is between BPD and not only overly-intense emotional reactions but also narcissism, paranoia, sociopathy and sometimes sadism as well is unclear. Oakley explores the relationship between these multiple factors and how they have played out in the lives are various well-known historical figures whose BPD, when they are men, has typically been characterised as malignant narcissism.

The bottom line is that I generally recommend this book to my clients when they are struggling to understand the behaviors of a mysteriously difficult-to-deal BPD parent or sibling.

The feedback I have received from my clients has been consistent. The book helps them to feel calmer and more accepting of the difficult BPD family member, and yet to be able to deal with them with increased realism.

I too like this book. Its comprehensive review of the scientific literature is very helpful. The writing style is so  engaging that it reads almost like a novel. Most importantly however Oakley sustains a surprising empathy for borderlines, in spite of, or perhaps because of, their propensity to take actions which others would regard as evil.

I’ll conclude therefore this review of Oakley’s excellent book by quoting a paragraph that for me summarizes Oakley’s dual ability to see the evil clearly that borderline individuals can do, and at the same time to see the person behind the evil with compassion.

“Both high-tech neuroscience and Carolyn’s old-fashioned journal entries have helped me to realize that Carolyn [the author’s sister], and people like her, often don’t consciously intend to be evil and certainly don’t see  themselves as evil—despite the blindingly obvious and sometimes terrible consequences of their actions. Instead, these are people who are constrained by the quirks of their neural machinery—often carved by both genes and environment—to act in self-serving, manipulative, and deceitful ways.  Evil though the consequences of their actions may be, such Machiavellians are still real people, not caricatures—they can become heartbreakingly lonely, monumentally sad, and their eyes can become filled with tears of pity—even if it is only self-pity.” (p. 331).
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2019, 11:13:16 AM »

while resentment is often justified, at a certain point, replaying it and taking it to great heights can actually hinder our recovery, or keep us stuck in that resentment.

it sounds like youre struggling with anger toward your ex, and the way that the relationship ended. i did too, for a really long time. at the same time, underneath that anger is probably very real hurt that you may not have come to terms with yet. it can be healed.

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery?

Is resentment blocking your healing and recovery?
for bpdfamily.com members disengaging from a romantic relationship

You've read the vitriol on the Internet - you may have even participated in it yourself. Here are some quotes on bpdfamily... .

"These people (with BPD) are emotional vampires... ."
"They are all the same, they suck us dry, we are only supply to them, then they move on to another innocent victim... ."
"They are all evil, pure evil... ."
"They hunt for their marks, good and giving people like us, and then they strike... ."
"Watchout, they will suck you back into the relationship - no matter how hard you try to get away... ."
"LOSERS!... ."

So, is this helping us or hurting us?  oes this sound more like healthy anger or unbridled resentment or even possibly dysfunctional coping?  How do we know when has the anger gone so far as to become detrimental to our healing? This is the topic of this workshop.

Some thoughts to kick off this discussion... .

Healthy Grieving  We all know that it is important that we grieve the end (death) of these relationships.  The grieving cycle, according to Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, M.D includes Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.  The duration, order, and a degree of each stage varies with the individuals.

Dysfunctional Resentment  Resentment is a mental process in which we repeatedly replay a feeling, and the events leading up to that feeling that angers us. With resentment, we re-experience and relive events in ways that affect us mentally, emotionally, physiologically and spiritually in destructive ways.

According to Mark Siche (author of Healing from Family Rifts), resentment happens when:

    We feel what people did to us that was unnecessarily mean, hurtful, and disrespectful or humiliating


    What people in our lives did not do for us mean, hurtful, and disrespectful or humiliating


Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful?  

So how does a little venting hurt us?  When we are resentful, we try to balance the wrongs we feel by demeaning the person that hurt us.  We bash them, feel disgust for them, feel hatred or look down in pity... .we may even wish them harm or lash out to hurt them or their reputation.

The problem for us is that we create a dysfunctional and false reality to sooth our pain.  And in doing so we cling to a futile need to be right or be superior, which overrides our capacity to heal and to make healthy changes in our lives... .usually because we don't know any other way to come to grips with the painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2019, 11:30:45 AM »

keep many of us in, or bring us back to, relationships that others might leave, without having to factor that we are under some kind of evil spell.

You sound like s pretty good person. I just wanted to zoom out with relationships in mind. I’m interpreting this discussion as romantic r/s’s and BPD ex partners are evil. Maybe somone else interprets it differently.

Can we talk about more r/s’s son, daughter, parent, grand parent etc.

Let’s say if you try your very best at raising your child, there’s always going to be curve balls thrown at you things that you don’t anticipate. You have a good r/s with your child and you start to notice BPD traits from your child.

Now would that make your child evil?
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2019, 11:43:41 AM »

it sounds like youre struggling with anger toward your ex, and the way that the relationship ended. i did too, for a really long time. at the same time, underneath that anger is probably very real hurt that you may not have come to terms with yet. it can be healed.

For what it's worth, to me it doesn't sound as if Mindfried is struggling with anger. I read these posts more as an alternative to the DSM definition of BPD (or any of the personality disorders, for that matter).

Until I met my STBX and his father, I never believed in evil. Of those two men? Hands down, the father, in my opinion, is truly evil. I define evil as the propensity to behave without conscience or acceptance for the consequences one's actions may have on others.

Believe me when I tell you, I am not angry at my STBX's father. I am too removed and too healed to be angry with him. I am still hurt at how he treated me, and yet I am grateful for how he treated me because it made me truly understand (and I'm in my mid-60s) that people are not projections of who I am. Because I don't lie does not mean others won't lie to me. Because I am direct does not mean others will be direct with me. Because I don't have a hidden agenda does not mean others don't have agendas.

In an effort to for his son into a residential treatment program, my STBX's father cut his son off financially. Shortly after my STBX filed for divorce (STBX had been supporting me), his father cut me off financially. I had no money coming in for six months except for loans from friends and family, a small amount of social security, and food stamps.

I am not mentally ill, not like my STBX, and I can tell you those six months were unbelievably stressful. And humiliating. I didn't like borrowing from people, and I sure as hell didn't like going on food stamps.

So if I had that reaction, and I am not mentally ill (STBX has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia in addition to personality disorders), I can't even imagine what my STBX went through. I think for a father to do that to his son is evil.

STBX's father approached the mental illness as one might approach a substance abuse disorder: by having an intervention. With someone as disordered as my STBX was at the time, it was a disaster, and the actions made him much much worse.

I couldn't do to a stranger what that man did to his own son, and I think it's evil to behave in such a way.

Just my two cents on a beautiful Spring morning,

TMD
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2019, 12:14:27 PM »

TMD is correct. I am not struggling with anger over my ex its been over 8 months and I have been moving on. I am just discussing other possibilities when looking at BPD and putting it up for discussion. My last post was not me, it was an article written in Psychology Today that I shared to add to the discussion. Sorry for any confusion. Since this is a discussion board I thought it would be an interesting topic.
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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2019, 12:20:23 PM »

In an effort to for his son into a residential treatment program, my STBX's father cut his son off financially. Shortly after my STBX filed for divorce (STBX had been supporting me), his father cut me off financially. I had no money coming in for six months except for loans from friends and family, a small amount of social security, and food stamps.

I think I must be missing something here. If your STBX's father was evil and thus incapable of empathy, was sadistic and cruel, was it not more cruel to continue to watch him destroy himself rather than try and get him into a residential program? Arguably the cruellest thing to do would be to provide him the financial means with which to avoid the consequences of his actions... I'm guessing he wasn't a spring chicken if you're in your 60's and yet he wasn't financially responsible for himself? If this is the case then I'm sure plenty of the moms and pops on the parenting board who are cutting off financial support to their kids in an attempt to avoid enabling their dysfunction must also be considered evil and heartless. The fact that he didn't care so much for your welfare maybe a matter for his personal boundaries seeing you as collateral damage to him sorting out his son. As I said, I might have missed something.

All humans have an innate ability to commit cruel and selfish acts. We are at heart animals. HOWEVER, we have generated systems that pull us back to a moral plumb line, to keep us straight and orderly and within the best interests of society. Outside of these societal codes of conduct we consider things as bad, wrong and to the extreme, Evil. Someone in the UK might think that it's utterly barbaric to rock up to a goat and slit it's throat and leave it to bleed out... not so much in Afghanistan. Would you eat dog... or a guinea pig? We might consider people who killed a dog as Evil. My point is that without certain key cognitive abilities we are able to suppress conscience and commit acts of cruelty both physically and mentally to other, and actually justify them as moral and for the good. I am 99.9999% sure that Hitler genuinely thought he was doing good when he ordered the extinction of the Jews... and he found hundreds if not thousands of people to help him achieve that. His and their plumb line were soo far off base and they cognitively justified it to themselves that it was okay, and actually they were doing good. EVIL RESIDES IN ALL OF US. Some people use Christian teaching as their plumb line, some use Islam, some use Facebook... and more importantly most are able to keep that plumb line with some degree of consistency... but some aren't... and some really really really aren't able to, which allows them to do heinous things which are so far removed from what is considered socially normal we consider them to be Evil.

Is this genetic, in part I think it's likely, but it's also conditional. Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Good kids get sexually abused by their fathers and spent the rest of their lives reliving the trauma every single hour of every single day... and they can't stick to the plumb line of civility and we call those people Evil... and yes... they might sexually abuse their own son as their father did to them.

A good film to watch is The Shack... Christian... but good on whatever level you want to take it.

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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2019, 12:25:51 PM »

Here is the OP for reference:

I have said this all along and I understand it may not be politically correct but I believe there is some type of evil involved with BPD. If you read everyone's experience on this board there are constant similarities involved with all of them. There is more than a hint of evil in people with BPD. Just my humble opinion. Why do they continue to draw us back in no matter how much they mistreat us? And that is where I think there is some-type of evil involved. If we looked at this objectively after reading all these posts we are all idiots for putting up with this constant mistreatment but we do it and go back for more while they move on without a care in the world for our feelings or what they did to us. And we miss them, and we pine for them, and we get sick to our stomachs, etc, etc, etc. Evil.

My objection to the word evil is the idea, above, that pwBPD have some invisible pull or control of us that leaves us helpless and we are just drawn back into their evilness with no chance of escaping.  

The conversation around evil has now changed a bit and that is fine, but lets not forget how this conversation started.  
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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2019, 01:02:14 PM »

I think I must be missing something here. If your STBX's father was evil and thus incapable of empathy, was sadistic and cruel, was it not more cruel to continue to watch him destroy himself rather than try and get him into a residential program?

  To get his son into a residential program, in my opinion, should have been attempted by making direct contact with his son, not simply cutting him off. Mental illness is not the same as substance abuse, and my STBX was diagnosed, at the very least, with a thought disorder, and possibly with schizophrenia.

  Being cut off in that way caused my STBX to decline further. And, in my opinion, and I say this as a parent, STBX's father needed a hands-on approach to his son and not try to "fix" him 2500 miles away.

  I see this behavior as cruel and having nothing to do with trying to get his son better, or even stabilizing. My opinion--and it's harsh--is that my STBX's father knows nothing of the required emotional work of parenting and believes throwing money at his son and then taking it away as he sees fit is his role as father.

  
Arguably the cruellest thing to do would be to provide him the financial means with which to avoid the consequences of his actions...

Nobody ever made my STBX accept the consequences of his actions. Not his father, not his mother, and not his psychiatrists.

An example: My STBX had a problem with substance abuse and went to a residential program where he called one of the staff members the 'N' word. His father's response was that the facility should expect that kind of behavior.

Another example: My STBX routinely called me and a woman who worked for him the "C" word. His psychiatrist said we should get used to being called the "C" word, so it wouldn't hurt.  His father responded that he was sorry that his son was calling people the "C" word, but wasn't that to be expected?

People to my STBX's father are expendable and should accept their role as being recipients of abuse. I think that's evil.

 I am 99.9999% sure that Hitler genuinely thought he was doing good when he ordered the extinction of the Jews...

I don't agree with you. I think Hitler saw Jews, intellectuals, gypsies, and so on as expendable. I don't think he was capable of empathy. To me that makes him evil. And the people who saw what he was doing and did nothing, it makes them evil as well.

I think Hitler felt justified in dehumanizing people, but I don't think he saw  what he was doing as good.

I think those who go after the powerless are evil, and I think those who allow others to go after the powerless are culpable, as well.

Interesting discussion.

TMD
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2019, 01:04:59 PM »

Okay Harri,

Fair enough you don't like the word evil. Can you relate to any of this below. The point I am trying to make is there is more here than psychological issues at play when it comes to BPD IMO. It's kind of like alternative medicines. If we just looked to traditional medicine and not alternatives would we be better off.  Just putting an alternative viewpoint out there for thoughts and discussion.

Excerpt
https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikita-mor/2017/02/13-signs-youre-in-what-is-known-as-a-karmic-relationship/
Eastern Philosophy believes almost every person goes through one or more karmic relationships during their lifetime. Karmic relationships are not meant to last, and they are usually the biggest life lessons in love.

Karmic relationships are different from twin flame and soulmate relationships. In a spiritual context, karmic relationships are viewed from the lens of personal growth. Here are some of the signs of a karmic relationship.

1. They repeat patterns. If you’re on and off in your relationship, that is major sign it’s a karmic one. If you seem to be experiencing the same kinds of relationship problems, that is also a big red flag. Such relationships repeat the same patterns and remain stagnant, because the only way you can grow from them is by letting go.

2. They are selfish. Karmic relationships do not respect healthy boundaries in their partners. They serve only their own self-interest and needs. They are the perfect template for forming abusive or co-dependent relationship complexes. While one person is very invested, the other person views it more as a convenience.

3. They are addictive. They are characterised by highs and lows of passionate intensity. One or both partners are more in love with the idea of love, based on superficial reasons such as good looks, popularity, social or professional status.

4. They are controlling. They are obsessive and all about ownership of your partner. The other person becomes the center of your universe, and the main source of your happiness. You put them on a pedestal, and are unable to see their flaws.

5. They feel destined. You think that you cannot live without this person, and feel like you both are somehow meant to be together. You cannot fathom why it keeps failing, and you keep trying and hoping to get it right. They are extremely hard to resist, and keep drawing you in, until you learn what you need to from it.

6. There is an instant connection. Such relationships are marked by an immediate attraction. This person feels perfect to you. It feels like you have known them before, and you become instantly attached to them.

7. They create dependency. You begin to feel consumed by the relationship, and it begins to occupy your thoughts all the time. You can’t help handing them all the power. You become mentally, physically and emotionally dependent on this person.

8. They bring out your worst fears. They bring to the surface all the things you are deathly afraid of. Fear of abandonment, fear of commitment, fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of emotional engulfment, and all the skeletons hiding in your closet.

9. They are irrational. They hold a mirror to your worst vulnerabilities and ugly insecurities. You start acting unlike yourself, and do things that you wouldn’t normally do.

10. They reveal your dark side. They show you your most undesirable and difficult characteristics that you were previously unaware of. They painfully remind you how human you actually are.

11. They are tumultuous. Such relationships are incredibly volatile, erratic and unpredictable. The best thing you can do for yourself is to identify such a relationship, and learn to let it go for your own good.

12. They push your buttons. The main purpose of these relationships is for you to learn how to properly love yourself and others, such that you stop trying to control your circumstances, become the master of your own ego, and focus on working on yourself.

13. They do not last. This person is not your forever person, how much ever you want to hope, wish and believe in your fairy-tale ending. Contrary to what you see on television and media, such relationships are born out of conflict and end in conflict. They are extremely unhealthy, and usually do not last. TC mark

https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikita-mor/2017/02/13-signs-youre-in-what-is-known-as-a-karmic-relationship/

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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2019, 01:26:46 PM »

TMD,

Let me link what you have said to what I wrote. You and your father in-law have different plumb lines... different values. He might think that chucking money at things solves problems (until he doesn’t) because maybe it has worked for him in the past, and maybe it worked for his father. Maybe he has poor parenting skills. You believe that he should have come to your Ex and worked with him... that’s kinda 2 different sets of values right there... I can even see how they are gender values in that it might not come naturally to nurture his adult son. Either way you are both adhering to a set of values and both attempting in your own ways to do the right thing.

Is your father in-law wrong for suggesting that you should get used to being called a C? Maybe not, maybe what he should have said was “if you insist on staying with my son and by all means don’t as you’re free to go whenever you please, you’re going to have to get used to being called a C and look through that as part of the disorder. My son has limited control over his emotions and often this results in abusive language... your choice!” Although not nice, I can see his point about a mental institution likely expecting to be verbal abused... they do physical restraint training to protect them and their patients, I’d be surprised if they didn’t expect to be called a N or a C before getting punched in the face.

You judge your father in-law as evil because his values and the behavioural manifestation of those values is different to your own. You judge your Ex as Evil because he is unable to align his behaviour to any values and in fact those values are likely to fluctuate... because he is diagnosed with a serious mental disorder, and yes, that behaviour is sometimes very much out of societal norms in a zone we might refer to as evil.

99.99999999% of people act with good intentions for the presevatipn of something important to them... that something might be themselves. There are very few true psycopaths that actually take pleasure in other people’s physical or mental pain.

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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2019, 01:35:41 PM »

Eastern Philosophy believes...

In the Buddhist perspective, people are not labeled as evil.  

My challenge to you is to examine the benefits and risks of playing the "evil" card. The biggest downside in doing this for me is that it paints my experience in terms of us/them, good person/bad person, fault/no fault.

If these are learning experiences...  we must have our eyes open to learn.

For example:

1. They repeat patterns.
We have a role in this. Why did we do it?

2. They are selfish - one person is very invested, the other person views it more as a convenience.
I'm not sure this is common, but if it is, why did we stay?

3. They are addictive.
This is on us.

4. They are controlling. The other person becomes the center of your universe, and the main source of your happiness. You put them on a pedestal, and are unable to see their flaws.
This is on us.

5. They feel destined. You think that you cannot live without this person, and feel like you both are somehow meant to be together.
This is on us.

6. There is an instant connection. This person feels perfect to you... you become instantly attached to them.
We have a role in this.

7. They create dependency. You can’t help handing them all the power. You become mentally, physically and emotionally dependent on this person.
This is on us.

8. They bring out your worst fears. They bring to the surface all the things you are deathly afraid of. Fear of abandonment, fear of commitment, fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of emotional engulfment, and all the skeletons hiding in your closet.
Our fears are our issues.

9. They are irrational. They hold a mirror to your worst vulnerabilities and ugly insecurities. You start acting unlike yourself, and do things that you wouldn’t normally do.
This is on us.

10. They reveal your dark side. They show you your most undesirable and difficult characteristics that you were previously unaware of. They painfully remind you how human you actually are.
This is on us.

11. They are tumultuous. Such relationships are incredibly volatile, erratic and unpredictable. The best thing you can do for yourself is to identify such a relationship, and learn to let it go for your own good.
Our fears are our issues.

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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2019, 01:39:03 PM »

I think we agree more than disagree here.  

It is not that I do not like the word evil.  My statements were based on your idea that we are somehow at the whim of this evilness that is within other people and are, in essence helpless and "drawn in" with chance.  That is how I took your comment in your opening post.  The conversation has since evolved.  

I do believe that evil exists.  I believe that we all have the capacity within us to do evil acts.  I am, however, very cautious in how I use the word.  Perhaps it is down to a determination within me to overcome and heal from a life time of abuse at the hands of my mom and dad.  I am not helpless anymore and I see no purpose in thinking that I was drawn in and helpless in the face of their dysfunction... even though as a kid I was in fact helpless.   I was not helpless when I got into a relationship with my ex.  I got into my relationship with my ex because of the wounds I carried and certain traits that I still have but did not know how to temper.

Thanks for sharing the info on karmic relationships.  Again, i think we agree on a lot of aspects in this conversation.  I object to the idea that we have no part in it or that we are somehow better than others.  We played a huge part in our relationship and not just as innocent bystander.  We are not helpless.  We are responsible.

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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2019, 01:57:53 PM »

All good points. Relationships are two way streets and yes we take full responsibility for our actions and for staying. The main point that I was trying to get across was does evil draw us back in. Is there something more at play than. We are all smart individuals but some how no matter how hard we try and no matter how much we get help, no matter how much we are well aware these relationships are toxic, we all seem to be drawn back in. Just food for thought and an interesting topic of discussion. For me there was some type of hold that I could not let go no matter how hard I tried.
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2019, 02:40:53 PM »

does evil draw us back in.

i dont think so. speaking for only myself, what drew me back in was one part love, part my own fear of abandonment, part fear of abandoning her/guilt, as well as my commitment and investment. we were together about three years and it was my first adult relationship. that was a lot to give up.

some of the reasons for relationship recycling are discussed here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=95860.0

it also, of course, was too good to leave, too bad to stay. i remember telling her a few times that i felt that the relationship was 90% bad and 10% good. if that was really true, there must have been something about that 10% that was very powerful, and i dont think that was just something she had or created.

people with BPD arent powerful as we often paint them out to be. a personality disorder is not a life or relationship advantage, its a serious skills (relationships and coping) and functioning (life, ability to navigate, cognitive function) deficit.

Excerpt
We are all smart individuals

you might be giving me too much credit . at the end of the day, i was as immature and dysfunctional as she was. i had a lot to learn.
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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2019, 05:09:37 PM »

Hello everyone,

If i may interject, we can play semantics all day.

I agree fully with "us" being drawn into and staying because of our issues, that's the point of this board if I'm not mistaken to evoke a self perception, self analysis, the looking glass self, healing from our own issues, learning what they are, giving us the ability NOT to have such unhealthy relationships, NOT to seek them out, NOT to make excuses to be involved in them and rationalizing the idea of a scale, good parts vs bad parts of the rs in order to justify in our own minds.

Fine, we are speaking of "us".

I gather that this thread is about intentions...

Can we say my first paragraph was about our intentions towards ourselves and others? 

Are we allowed to discuss the pwBPD's intentions, are we calling calculating bad or destructive behavior evil, for lack of a better term, one that does indeed have an agreed upon meaning across society, not necessarily a source of it.

Can people be evil in their intentions?  Open ended question.  My response is yes.  Evil is not to be blamed for our response to evil, in of itself, bad intentions, calculating, knowing you are causing pain, hurt, desperation and damage cannot be thrown out the window because of a disorder, I have to believe that the intentions of doing something bad, especially bpdfamily type bad may be referred to as evil.

Sounds like I'm having a grand old time with my rs, doesn't it?
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2019, 05:56:35 PM »

Are we allowed to discuss the pwBPD's intentions, are we calling calculating bad or destructive behavior evil, for lack of a better term, one that does indeed have an agreed upon meaning across society, not necessarily a source of it.

We can certainly talk about pwBPD traits and our partners intentions.

are we calling calculating bad or destructive behavior evil, for lack of a better term, one that does indeed have an agreed upon meaning across society, not necessarily a source of it.

We are a psychology based community and we encourage the use of scientific terminology because it is defined and there is research on much of it - science.

What is the meaning of evil? Does it have an agreed upon meaning? It's not a psychology term.

The OP is describing evil, in part, as an unexplained power over him. is that part of your definition?

Good discussion, guys.
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2019, 06:03:09 PM »

Is your father in-law wrong for suggesting that you should get used to being called a C? Maybe not, maybe what he should have said was “if you insist on staying with my son and by all means don’t as you’re free to go whenever you please, you’re going to have to get used to being called a C and look through that as part of the disorder. My son has limited control over his emotions and often this results in abusive language... your choice!” Although not nice, I can see his point about a mental institution likely expecting to be verbal abused... they do physical restraint training to protect them and their patients, I’d be surprised if they didn’t expect to be called a N or a C before getting punched in the face.

The best I can say is we disagree. And it wasn't my FIL who told me I should get used to being called a "C", it was my STBX's psychiatrist. The point I was making was in response to yours regarding my FIL pushing my STBX to have natural consequences to his actions by cutting him off financially. I was letting you know that the cutting off wasn't for him to have natural consequences. That is not what my in-laws do.

I was pointing out that his family and his psychiatrist enabled his verbally abusive behavior. Interestingly enough, his cognitive behavioral therapist did not enable the verbal abuse. Nor did the T ever suggest that anyone be expected to be the recipient of verbal abuse.

Would you as supportive of physical abuse?

And I don't think my husband is evil. Probably, for that matter, I don't even think my FIL is evil. I do, however, believe that my FIL's actions within his career and his family are evil because they result in people being hurt, sometimes badly. And I believe that my FIL is fully aware that his actions result in people being hurt.

FIL's values are not mine. You are right about that. But I think it is naive to maintain that 99.9999999% of people have good intentions. It is that naivete that got me believing what my FIL said and ignoring what he did.

But like I said, initially, the best I can say here is you and I disagree. We have had different experiences that have shaped what we think and how we view the world, but I do think a discussion of what constitutes evil is valuable and quite interesting.

Have a nice weekend,
TMD
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2019, 06:32:34 PM »

Skip,

Thanks, I knew my "stuff" wouldn't fly far here.

Agreed, we can discuss our pwBPD intentions, yes, good.

Science and evil don't mix, not quantitative or measurably qualitative, agreed.

I was loosely stating that we all know what the word conjures up when we mention it and how it applies to people and actions.  In this sense the word evil being used as an adjective only.

Unsubscribed power over someone, no, not part of my definition.


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