You should watch

[B53]

This guy is great. He has a series on YouTube

I hope I copied the link correctly. It should be called:

Dating a borderline- Your relationship is not what you think it is- the illusion of intimacy

https://youtu.be/jtFBJF48y0Y

[Cromwell]

Hi B53

how are you doing today?

2:56 to 3:33

"listen when it comes to recovery, if you have been in a relationship with a borderline or if you are in a relationship with a borderline, you are by definition a codependent which means you have a very serious mental illness yourself and if you have been in a relationship with a borderline that lasted longer than a couple of weeks then by definition you are in denial as the red flags are there from the beginning, because it was for me."

was wondering what you felt about this part.

[B53]

Hmmm, I am very familiar with codependency and will admit there was a bit of codependency and rescuing involved. I have had lots of counseling and was in a good place when I met him. I didn’t rush into this relationship even though he would of liked it. I did love him , but often wondered if I was in love with him. I felt a little guilty feeling that way. I don’t feel I was that enmeshed. I have no problem identifying my feelings and I communicated them well. I never felt responsible for his actions and I questioned where they were coming from. He did not affect my mood, that was the other way around. I tend to be a passive person but he did not dominate me.I’ve been told that I am a very strong person more than once. I certainly didn’t look to him for my self esteem and told him that often when he devalued me and was aware that his idealization was over the top, though I will admit I liked it, who wouldn’t.
 I knew something was wrong, I just didn’t know what. Our first incident was about me supposedly giving him a look. I told him that I had  no idea what look he was talking about and promised him he would see it again, since I can control my looks and if that was an issue then he should move on. Usually when something came up, he would go home and not call me for a week or two and I never once called him. I didn’t know it was BPD, but I told him that I wasn’t playing that game and if he didn’t call me, then it would be over. I never once accepted blame for anything I didn’t do. He said I never would admit that I was wrong and I told him I would, if I was wrong. After each incident, we would talk it out, pointing out how way out of portion his reaction was and he always apologized. Though now I realize that he probably didn’t get what he did wrong he just knew that it was his way back in.I learned early on that defending myself was useless. I often watched his behavior with curiosity and waited until it ran its course. He was the one who initiated couples counseling, unfortunately we had a terrible counselor. No one knew what we were dealing with at that time. That fact that he was willing to seek out help was the reason I continued. He was trying. I was the one who search and found BPD and told him he had to go to therapy or it was over. He was very agreeable to go.

Now was that a healthy relationship, certainly not and in my gut I always knew it wasn’t going to last. It’s funny because I never took pictures of him. I may have one or two. In every other relationship I have had, I usually had a picture of us in a frame in my bedroom.

Now the last two episodes did get to me. For the first time what he said hit me below the belt. I realize that if we continued I was going to start to go down hill and when he broke up with me I let it end. I wasn’t willing to loose myself.

I have thought about it a lot and it’s starting to be more clear as to why I have been having a difficult time. What I never realized until recently is that the good times were not love. I did think he loved me, but now I know it’s not true. That has been a hard pill to swallow. I thought that he would get better with counseling and realize that he might, but it won’t be anytime soon. We had months of drama free times and because of Covid, during those times we did everything together and had a routine, that worked. I am alone now, in a big empty house (which I own) and with COVID, I can’t visit my family and friends. I am sad and lonely and mourning the loss of the relationship. Not matter how good or bad it was, it is a normal reaction, when you loose someone. That particular YouTube was very healing for me. Seeing the picture of the little girl in the grown up dress was the perspective that I needed. From now on I will picture him as a child in a grownup mans suit. A visual I will use when I get sad.

Now you might disagree and say that just being in the relationship makes me a full blown codependent. I can live with that. The fact is, the label doesn’t matter to me. I’m doing better every day and have no doubt that I have a happy future ahead.

Now your thoughts.

[Cromwell]

Hi  B53
 I did think he loved me, but now I know it’s not true. That has been a hard pill to swallow.

B53 - hard pill to swallow? The "love" "love" "love" thing. and to discover it was fake - is a horrendous catastrophe.

So if a video brings some comfort, I found similar on my journey, I can understand. It is part of some of our journeys. I do not believe you are codependent, just to make that clear that im on your side, it has always been my stance (I can show you previous posts of mine to confirm) that a person is not a codependent when they are able to live outside a relationship.

thoughts on loneliness, it does not apply to me today, but it took time to advertise to the world "hey, want a friend who is interested in sports, music, art, sex" or "hey, im grieving the heartbreak of a girl I attached to emotionally and have nothing to offer more than depressed musings". Possibly it may have helped to better appreciate certain art and music, always a plus side so they say.

but I want a new relationship now, I realised this is where my true desires are, not paintings and audio vibrations to the ear drum. So, I chat to women, get their numbers and it is a step in the right direction. Some are half my age, possibly borderline, im not trained in such things, besides it matters not - I know I can have fun time, company, sex, you name it without any risk of attaching viz a viz the "love" thing.

unnecessarily feeling the need to attach via 'love' and then risk this devastating situation emotionally we both found ourselves in - therapy, recovery, heartbreak, trying to understand thinking that will help, more heartbreak, loop, etc.

I realise how tough it is post-relationship although it is nearly 3 years ago and actually some of it is fading away in signficance, I have to sometimes force myself to remember how scary a time it was. Thank you for reading my assortment of jumbled thoughts B53.

[B53]

I am a very visual person, so being able to bring that picture up in my head will help me keep my perspective. I actually feel so much better today, than I have felt in awhile.

The reason I know about codependency is because I went to CODA meetings for five years. I’ve been a preschool teacher for 29 years and raised 3 children, which both tend to be codependent in nature. Im not dismissing that there wasn’t some codependency in that relationship, on both sides but I wasn’t completely sucked in, though it was heading in that direction. I alway sensed there was something off and like I said, I never had the feelings for him like I did in past relationships. I never went through the infatuation stage with him.  It’s a stage  in relationships that most people love, but I don’t. It’s fake and it’s not until it’s over that you actually see who that person really is. Though, it is the fist stage of a loving relationship and I was aware of my lack of feelings. I had a double major in college, education and psychology. I have always been fascinated in what makes people tick  and I was curious about what was going on. I was excited that I figured out what was wrong and I have to admit, I wanted to be part of the challenge to fix him, but not at the cost of sacrificing myself. I actually think without the BPD we were a pretty good match. He said he is going to beat this and he has jumped in with both feet. Unfortunately I don’t have enough years ahead of me to gamble on that and I don’t have it in me to keep dealing with the cycles until that happens, if it’s going to.

It’s frightening to me that BPs have done such a number on people’s heads that they still haven’t gotten over it years later.  It’s kind of like a slot machine. You win, then you loose, loose, loose and when you’re ready to give up, you win again. That’s how people loose a lot of money and their sanity.

I have always enjoyed the company of men more than women and have always had a lot of men friends. Unfortunately when I start to date the new guy usually doesn’t like that I hang out with other men ( which I can’t blame him) so I now try to avoid that type of relationships. I’m still close to my high school guy friends, but they are married and I am friends with their wives too.

I still want to find that special one. I’m not into FWB. I need to sort through this and take care of loose ends before I can move on.
It’s funny,I have never minded being alone and feeling lonely is new to me. There is a difference when it’s a choice, but with Covid it is something that is forced on us, with no end in sight. No longer having someone here to interact with, I feel the void, hence loneliness. I do zoom and FaceTime with my family and friends, but it’s not the same. I still plan to go visit my daughter and grandchildren for Christmas, if I feel it is safe.

Thanks for writing back.

[Lucky Jim]

Hmmm, I am very familiar with codependency and will admit there was a bit of codependency and rescuing involved.

Hey B53, Most of us Nons have codependent tendencies, because you sort of have to be a caretaker/rescuer to be in a r/s with a pwBPD.  It runs with the territory.  Took me a long time to figure out that care-taking is unhealthy for both the care giver and care recipient, because it allows the care recipient to avoid taking responsibility for his/her own issues.  For the care giver, it provides an excuse to avoid confronting his/her own issues and feels good play the role of White Knight.  At least that's my take on the dynamic, which creates a strong bond even though it's unhealthy.  Does that ring a bell in terms of your r/s with your Ex?

LJ

[Cromwell]

B53 you are more than welcome, It is nice when our moods get a lift and find some happiness. Ive been doing quite well, sometimes I feel the need to drop by and have a chat, or say something and it is nice to get a reply, and im alright again. So thanks, and look forward to hearing how you get on. Take care

[B53]

When a codependent jumps out a window, somebody else’s life flashes before them

I definitely will admit that there were elements of codependency in this relationship. If it wasn’t before his diagnoses, it definitely kicked in after. After his diagnosis my feelings changed, I felt sorry for him, he lives in pain. I could no longer write off his behavior as him being a Ahole. Of course I wanted to be there for him. When he walked out, I had no desire to chase after him. I’m sure he would take me back if I wanted. The relationship was unhealthy and I was getting in the way of his recovery. This is for the best!
What differs for me is that, he didn’t come close to the best relationship I have had. He didn’t have that irresistible attraction that everyone writes about. There was a compatibility and routine. We went through some personal difficulties together.  I was content, until I wasn’t. Like I said, there is a void, a loss a big empty house. Just because the relationship was bad, doesn’t mean you don’t grieve it.

I would say this is the best day that I have had since it happened. I got back to a project I had started. I expect I’ll have some bad days but I think I may be over the worst of it, as long as he leaves me alone. Hopefully his therapist will reinforce that.

Thanks for taking your time to listen and support me. This site is very valuable for a lot of people.

[Lucky Jim]

I think I may be over the worst of it,

Great news, B53.  Keep up the good work!  Some backsliding is normal, so don't be surprised if you have a few tough days as you work through the detaching process.

LJ

[Cromwell]

B53, thanks for continuing to share, it helps very much.

# I’m sure he would take me back if I wanted

do you think the loneliness, if it got too much, could get to that point?

[B53]

Thanks for getting back to me. I’m always interested in what you have to say. I’ve been thinking a lot about both of your (LJ’s and Cromwell’s)thoughts and advice and find you both to often be very insightful. I’ve been thinking  about how much of a role codependency played in my relationship and concluded that I am in denial. There was something that happened early on in the relationship that was out of our control  that did change the dynamics somewhat. I’m happy to tell you about it, but I’m not sure how interested you are.

There have been some moments of sadness, but for the most part I had a good day and was very productive ( I’m putting a new floor in my laundry room). In the past, I have always enjoyed my alone time and seldom got lonely or bored and that part of me is starting to return. I see a light at the end of the tunnel, but it’s still a little dim.

I would not go back to my ex due to loneliness, that would be disastrous. I don’t want to say I would never go back because I have learned to never say never, so I’ll say it’s highly unlikely.  Maybe if he had some inpatient therapy, I might entertain the thought, but what are the chances of that happening?

Later,
B53

[Cromwell]

Hi B53

Im interested to hear what happened earlier in the relationship, it sounds important if you feel like sharing.

At the moment I relate strong to keeping busy, I have little choice a lot of work, it has distraction as a plus point, i still try to find time to do a bit of therapy here with the hope that it long term adds up.

Yesterday i panicked that I'd fallen behind on work only to discover im way ahead as if it was been done by some magic pixie. But it's being on autopilot and studies have shown that stress correlates to increase in performance. So that's what it feels like and maybe its better than if I had less to do.

Its nice to talk here with folk and feel a sense of ongoing connection and support, as you say, through the good and not so good days.

I have to concentrate hard on work i do it affects people's lives, I put them in my mind first and foremost and it helps to remind me for all the issues i have it is an ex relationship and there are also other important things in the present that deserve my time, interest and responsibility.

One goal I have is to live a 'normal' balanced life. I just don't fully know what that might resemble

Thanks for listening.

How are things going today?

[B53]

I had a pretty good day, but I had sad moments, more then the last two days. His sister-in-law, texted me this morning, to wish me a happy Thanksgiving. She had no idea that we broke up over a month ago.

 

Hope your day went well!

 

 I have said in several of my post, my relationship didn’t have the total craziness that I typically read about. I question that maybe in part it was because most people are writing about woman BPD and also they are much younger. I’ve been thinking a lot about why I stayed. I’ve said, it wasn’t love at first sight. I am an introvert and I like my alone time and until lately I have never been bored or lonely.  I’m usually attracted to extraverts because they have something to say when I am at a loss for words and I’m always up for what ever adventures they come up with. It’s not that I am boring, I know how to have fun. I also have to admit there is something more exciting about a bad boy, compared to the nice guy. All my friends and family thought my ex was such a nice guy. I contributed my lack of initial attraction to being with an introverted nice guy. Something new to me. I took my time getting to know him and slowly started to appreciate him and liked having both independence and loving attentiveness (now known as idealization). Before I would sleep with him I made him get an STD test. He hadn’t had a physical for a few years. During his physical he found out that he had early stage prostate cancer. Luckily we live in the suburbs of Baltimore where we have access to some of the best hospitals in the world. After learning his options, he decided to go to the University of Maryland for proton treatment, instead of radiation. It is relatively new but the outcome has been very positive. Some insurance companies won’t even cover the cost, his did.  It was a nine-week program, not including the prep work. We had plans to take a three-day hiking/back pack trip in the Grand Canyon and explore some of the tourist places, which we had to cancel. He took medical leave from work. He was offered to be part of a study group which aimed much stronger amounts of protons to the area in only five treatments and he went with it. I went with him to all his appointments. He has been cancer free for over a year. It was the main focus of our summer. So the first two BP episodes, I thought were misunderstandings while we were learning about each other and the ones that happened during the summer I thought were due to worrying about the cancer. Also he was not getting along with his 24-year-old daughter who was living with him, while applying to grad school and she decided to move out. I realize now , that she most likely  wasn’t the problem. So dealing with all that, had to effect the relationship. When it continued after that and I was walking away, he suggested couples counseling. He always took responsibly and was willing to go for help. He even admitted that he acted passive aggressive. I have never known a man to ever admit to that, I thought he was a unicorn.  When he went into individual therapy, he got the DBT workbook and participated and did every assignment and did everything the therapist suggested he do. He said “I’m going to beat this”. He was really trying. Most of the stories on this site talk about their BPD being in denial, not willing to seek help, cheating, lying and using their partners financially, and he didn’t do any of that. He did a lot of nice things that made my life so much easier. That is not to say, that the bad times weren’t really bad or I wouldn’t be writing this. His last text said that he realized how much pain he was causing me and he didn’t want to keep hurting me and he knew he had a lot of hard work a head to get better. He was going to focus on that.

 

Here is another problem. My sister,  brother and I inherited the family beach house. My brother wanted out. My sister bought him out. I did not want to own the house with my sister owning 2/3 and me owing 1/3. My sister is the type that would throw it up in my face anytime a decision would be made. I would be miserable. The house needed a total update so that we could rent or Airbnb it to cover the expenses. So I put in more money and my ex put up some, so I own 3/8, she owns 4/8 and he owns 1/8. He can fix most anything and we spent the summer doing the work and my sister paid for the materials and new appliances. They both make big bucks. I’m comfortable, but I’m a preschool teacher so I had to do a lot of sweat equity. So now my ex will always be connected to my family. I don’t know how it is going to work while we finish the renovations, but after that I wont have to ever be there when he is and my sister can be the go between.
So that’s my life. Was it worth the read?

I’m not sure if you told me how long you have been out of your relationship. What was the last straw.
I so understand autopilot. I was like that way before all this.

[Cromwell]

Hi B53

It was worth the read,

every shared experience does to `dilute my own thoughts of what actually is a hallmark or classic bpd-relationship, is it smashed plates on the wall and Older guy, Younger woman.

What I can say is, when the relationship is over, so does all of that, what the challenge that was left is dealing with a mix of resolving what has flowed through. I did not get financially tethered, so its something I cant relate I think. She owed me a small sum of money, I wrote it off as insignificant in the terms of - not worth fighting for. weighing up, bit like the r/s itself.

#the last straw

I woke up one morning and it was just a case of "cant be bothered with this anymore". I did not decide to try and figure out what her text meant, it was as veiled, cryptic as the others. I did not care to try and solve or debate or ask Qs. "are you drunk" etc.

My issue I believe has been focused on having trust carpet bombed and induced depression as a result, the relationship then continued on with push/pull with being in a state of low-energy to want to fight, or express emotion, I just drifted a long and became more of the passive object. It had the plus side that anything new she did, did not properly "hit", I was heartbroken if I never fully appreciated I was rationally, so anything new made little difference. The downside is it limited my scope for finding a way towards getting into healthier place, connect again with the rest of the world. It was her, my job, and increasingly isolated life elsewhere.

So what its all in the past. today I have the return of Joie de vivre, im doing my best but not trying too hard to "catch up" (there is no such thing it is not possible) but certainly when I relate today, I feel happier, healthier and the memories have not faded as such as have been altered - there is no ptsd trauma, it took nearly 3 years but within that time has been many good days. Sometimes going through a lot of upset has given me something to relate to and also appreciate more. One of my work colleagues passed away from cancer, it has stirred me emotionally but also directed my thoughts towards my own mortality. how I view each day, each moment as valuable.

not so much autopilot today, its been strange I keep looking at my deadlines and realise that im doing well, why is there anxiety? I can take a day off like today and maybe autopilot is not what it was during the r/s, I might just be simply "good" at what I do and in the right place, with the right match of people that brings out a more productive/efficient behaviour. Added more leisure time in, and getting more work done, it sounds like it should not work when thinking of "time" but somehow it is. So im just going with that flow and letting go, hard to do, trust to let go and things will be alright.

it is worth the read B53 and I look up to you for the courage you have had to share this experience and give myself and others the honour to reply and learn from it. As I still post here, reply and meet new folk, i guess it has morphed to become a story that did not stop just because the relationship ended it keeps becoming something more and with it, different outcome each day it goes on. So thank you and take care. 

[B53]

Thanks for your story. I’m sorry about the loss of your colleague.

I’m curious as to how old you are. If you rather not say, that’s fine. Your thoughts flow far more than others and it makes me wonder, if that is due to age or the perspective you’ve gained over time.

I really hope that this experience is not going to stay with me that long, but only time will tell.  Compared to my marriage, this was a piece of cake. My father was verbally abusive to my mom and since that was the view of love I grew up with, I went on to marry two verbally abusive men. I have been divorced for almost 20 years and don’t believe I will marry again. My sister still remains in hers extremely abusive marriage. After five years of counseling I learned that not all men yell, though I still seem to attract them like a magnet. Have you taken the Myers Briggs personality test? I had already taken it several times, though I did take it again when I saw it on the site. I am a INFJ which is one percent of the population, but it is twenty percent of the people here. There seems to be a correlation.
What bothers me is that outside this blog, I still know so few people in happy relationships, where they are still in love with each other. Out of the twenty people I work with, I would say only three are really happy. I still believe that it’s possible to find love and happiness and I don’t have enough years ahead of me to dwell on the past, though I need to process and make peace with all this so, I don’t bring it with me to my next relationship.

Since my school is closed, I feel like I’m living the movie Groundhog Day.

I hope this is a good day for you and that you are enjoying it!
B53

[Cromwell]

Hi B53,

Im soon 38, B53, my parents told me "life begins at 40" and looking up to them, I translated that into being "young" is under 40 and then maturity magically arrives. Last 2 years have been for sure an accelerated rate of pace of change.

#I still believe that it’s possible to find love and happiness and I don’t have enough years ahead of me to dwell on the past, though I need to process and make peace with all this so, I don’t bring it with me to my next relationship.

This sounds like where I got to eventually, although in many respects I found a lot of inner peace in terms of accomplished in life, and I feel in a place of advantage. Basically, what happens im open and receptive to but I dont feel like running out of time or pressured. How do you feel about satisfied with self love? I found it took this experience to compel it to be discovered, or perhaps it just started to grow organically. Im not sure, it is not only new but I wonder if id ever felt such a thing otherwise.


I enjoyed doing that test, first time, it says mediator INF-P-T
its quite scary how close I relate to the results, eye opener. thanks very much for something to do in covid lockdown boredom
I did POMS-2 before, scored zero

thanks and I might watch the film today, it feels good to say that rather than watching it being superflous. It "was" groundhog day for a long time, it isnt anymore, so I do know that feeling

[Coasteroflove]

Hey there! I kind of feel like I am stalking your conversation thread, but I am really interested in following this post with you two. I joined this community a year or more ago (I'll have to look) because I was in a super toxic relationship. I knew something wasn't right and I am the type that wants a name to something. This way I can research and discover for myself. Anyway, I could go into the details but really it is a classic bpd situation. I was infatuated. We had history that we reconnected after 25 years. In my head for awhile he was the love of my life. I am a codependent through and through, so his type is my dream (always working on this problem). I sit here with a successful 8 months away from him and yet I think and somewhat obsess several times a day about him. It blows my mind the number it has done on my head. I have never been like this. I find it has made it that more difficult because you confuse the obsession with real love and I am constantly reliving the bad times over and over to just remind myself. I recently discovered he went back to his previous partner before me. This is someone that he spoke very harshly about and their relationship had a lot of damage involved. It immediately provoked a rash of feelings all over again. The main one being "Did he change for her and not me?" I remembered this site and have been reading (and watching the videos) all day today. It has helped immensely. I am embarassed to speak too much on it anymore as I feel like I am only whining and should be over this at this point. So I am encouraged to see others struggle for long times as well. I know I am on the right path. My reality for today is that his illness is what took him back and it is no longer my anxiety and problem to withstand. Thanks for letting me creep 

[Coasteroflove]

Quick question: You referenced trying to decode her messages and wondering if she was drunk. This was a regular occurrence in our relationship. Is that a trait of bpd? He took Ambien and drank, I always chalked it up to that. I tried desperately to get him to stop. Which was ridiculous in of itself, I know. Then one time he apparently had not been taking Ambien for awhile and he still sent really weird messages.

[Cromwell]

Hi Coasteroflove

Are the ruminations less frequent over the 8 months. It took me one year, not 11 months, to find peace from the thought train. It was a neuroscientist who told me "give yourself a year" and that turned out (I had my doubts) to be surreal in accuracy.

Probably a lot of other factors help a long the way, I figured out I had mild depression, anxiety, started to work on those. Ruminations are known symptoms of both. So was this as simple as "im obssessed with my ex" because I think of the relationship more than Id like? Id say, not, it was more complex.

#whining

if you want to, feel free to, maybe we will encourage more to join in

I have this feeling that some would like to, maybe embarrassment is the barrier to it. For all we know there is an army of whiners out there whod really benefit and maybe enjoy and feel better for it. There wouldnt be anything to be embarrased about, it would be perfectly normal. If it got really popular maybe get monthly awards for "the best whiner" and so on, maybe some arguments that "my whining is better than yours". some outside chattering "how did he.she get this month award, sure they did the most whining but mines was far more intense!"

possible right? as much as a decoder tool to decrypt strange messages. maybe a psychologist with combined cryptography will make one and we would know the answers we wanted. Imagine if it turned out an answer like "i just felt better to see my text received, two ticks" that the message itself was non importance but you gave it such, and yet we got on this thought train on all these other strands of enquiry.

[B53]

Hi Coasteroflove. Glad you joined in. All are welcome here! It’s great that there is something written here that can bring you some peace.

Cromwell,
I just submitted a post and it didn’t show up

[Cromwell]

If it was longish post sometimes ive found it times out B53. Either way thanks and like to add that ive Read more of the personality profile. I know its accurate because "your personality type needs at least half an hour to wake up"

I think if i never got that text first thing opening my eyes id probably still be together, that was the last straw i dont do morning wake up calls my brain doesn't function before 10.30am.

Hope your doing well today

[B53]

Cromwell,
I'll give this another try. I'm using my computer instead of my ipad. I'm a slow typer.

Yeah, my personality type fit me. It must be the codependent type since it's rare, except for here.

 Well, I'm surprised that you are so young. I have children your age. You must be an old soul. Yes, you are at a good age. Old enough to have learned some life experiences and young enough to still look good, have lots of energy and hopefully you're in good health. I'll give you my motherly advice, put away as much money as you can for your future because it will be here sooner than you think and take care of your body. All the heavy things you lift and the sprains and broken bones come back to bite you in the butt. I can still scramble the rocks and hike five miles but it hurts the next day.

Your experience with BPD may be a blessing in disguise. You will go into your next relationship with your eyes open and you are working on discovering yourself and working on self love. This experience has been a setback for me, but for the most part, I like who I am. I think I bring a lot into friendships and relationships. If it wasn't for me my ex might not have found out he had cancer at the early stage, he wouldn't be getting help for BPD and he wouldn't know how good he looks with a beard. Isn't it always about them. LOL

I went to a numerologist years ago. She talked about past lives, soulmates and life lessons. I'm not sure if I believe in past lives, but it does make sense as to why bad things happen to good people. She told me that the lesson I was to learn in this life was to stand up for myself. It certainly has been a reoccurring theme. Maybe we are right where we are suppose to be. Maybe the great guy I'm suppose to meet wasn't ready yet and I needed to help my ex first. Timing is everything.

When I mentioned groundhog day, I was really referring to waking up everyday in this house and not being able to go anywhere.

One thing that has helped me out in my past breakups. was that I would find a new hobby. I learned how to throw (that's the term used)pots on a pottery wheel and another time I learned how to dance the east coast swing and two-step. I met people that I am still friends with today. When we are all set free again, I might join a hiking club or do volunteer work.

Someone asked me once if there was a song that I would choose to represent my life. I would choose Kenny Roger's the gambler. You have to know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em, know when to walk away, know when to run. The BPD would be in the run part.

What is pom's-2?

Hope your day is going well.
B53





 

[Cromwell]

Hi again B53

really enjoyed Kenny Rogers song, could relate to it on a few different levels

Ive picked this one I hope it sends a bit of hope and joy maybe some irony humour for what we all going through maybe it reminds me of the agoraphobia (I never had before) it hit me when I went no contact, strange when I think back, maybe I shouldn't i went out bit by bit and got over it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItVEhL-T7qQ&list=PLpzSBTze6PhTvLCaTm334oCqlGbHAdRXy&index=8

met a Numerologist? it sounds special one of those moments that whatever message will be remembered. One of my first jobs was to chaffeur a psychic to and from her shop, occassionaly she gave a few things as gifts, crystals and small trinkets. I was and still fascinated by the occult, might be from my mother, she has bipolar and in her moments finds herself connected to the spirit world. i used to feel as if I humoured her at times but I actually enjoy she has a compedium of accumulated knowledge from numerology through to tarot reading and it is always interesting to hear and learn something from it.

POMS2 is a mood questionnaire,  I did only the "totally agree" or "totally disagree" boxes for every question, nothing in between, or neutral. I did it for fun as part of college work doing a survey on campus. Somehow I ended up scoring zero and the tutors face went pale. What can I say, I was in a mischevious mood at the time

One thing that has helped me out in my past breakups. was that I would find a new hobby. I learned how to throw (that's the term used)pots on a pottery wheel and another time I learned how to dance the east coast swing and two-step. I met people that I am still friends with today.

 |iiiiwas it stressful to start or is dancing something you can get involved in easily? I know I will try to learn to dance one day, it is something I want to do but afraid. My ex was an amazing dancer, it was some of her happiest moments she told me, the times I tried to dance with her, once it involved dislocating my knee. i let her do the dancing from then, I chose the music.

when it happened, I dealt with myself but what I cant forget is the attention she gave, the concern, the comfort. it was a love-aura which I have rarely seen anything close to in any medical staff I work with. Its like if she had the medical know how, she would be the 'ideal' nurse beyond textbook ideal. but idk, that shift in mood on the wrong day, something like the one out of stephen kings misery. not an exaggeration, that split. I dont believe she would have went to that length, but I just didnt know anymore and it is not knowing raised that climate of fear to overwhelming limits. This is where Kenny Rogers song applies, and what I did. Immensely hard call, walk away, it left sometimes regrets,  id like to share this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjzscuZa5UY because yes I see myself today in good shape, it stands to reason that ive moved on, but some days those lyrics apply and im not sure why or what, or if it is still a form of regret, I feel that way and ive learned to just accept it for "whatever" it is.

youve inspired me though B53, I think im ready to push myself into trying even more hobbies, get out the comfort zone again, that stuff worked before and does work.

long message thanks for the chat, I appreciate it so much and your kindness and advice. very happy and grateful for starting this topic its been a stressy but rewarding day and it couldnt have been a better time to have a good talk with someone easy going. So thanks again and take care. Cromwell

[B53]

I have enjoyed our chats. I was concerned a little because we got off topic, but then I think the purpose of these blogs are to help each other get through this and it shouldn't matter how we do it.

There was something else the numerologist said that was a little eerie. I asked her about the guy I was with at the time. When we first started going out, he said to me on several occasions, "I can take care of you", which I replied, "thanks, but I can take care of myself". So, she said he was a soul connection and we had been together in many passed lives. She said in one past life, there was a military invasion and he decided  to pack up the family and flee. He took a wrong turn and the carriage turned over and everyone was killed. She said that he came into this life feeling he needed to take care of me. She his said his life lesson was unconditional love, you are offering it, but he is resisting it. He said to me once that he didn't know why I loved him, everyone always loved him for a reason and when it was ending he said that I didn't need him enough. She said that we will meet again in our next life. Personally, I feel one life was enough. I'm not saying she was for real, but it is a true story.

You are and old soul. The songs you chose came out when I was young. There are many songs that I could pick to represent my BP relationship, but the top two would be Brick by Ben Folds Five (she's/he's a brick and I'm drowning slowly) and Bizarre Love Triangle by Frente  is a good one. My favorite breakup movie is Forgetting Sarah Marshall

If you can hear a beat, then you can learn to dance. It's just learning steps and all it takes is practice. If you give up on things easily, then you probably won't like it. It's so much fun once you get it. I like the country two-step, but there are not very many places to go around here, unless you want to drive a hour or so. Now if you live in Texas or Nashville, you won't have a problem.

I'm sorry to hear about your agoraphobia and I'm glad that you are doing better. I can see how this type of emotional drama could cause that. My daughter suffers from anxiety and panic attacks. I had to take three weeks off work last year around this time to help here out.

I have a question, what does the SO in the box to the left of posts mean? Also I thought I saw something while searching that said a post was closing because it was too long, could that be correct

[Cromwell]

I reckon it maybe shorthand for "significant other" not entirely sure on that though B53.

Topic closed, too long?' happens sometimes ive not really thought much of it.

Sorry for going off topic and also I reflected on my post, I very much hope it did not sound dismissive of numerology I apologise if it did.

I'm sorry to hear about your agoraphobia and I'm glad that you are doing better. I can see how this type of emotional drama could cause that.

Thanks, although im not sure id give my ex that as a trophy or blame. felt stalked by her throughout the relationship as much as during the split ups. I feel I understand it better now, the meaning of 'stalked' but with context of BPD to go with it - I never had that back then. So by the time no-contact day arrived, sitting around at home for a month is going grey-rock, I started here first reading then joining in. I didnt just stop contact with her, the friends which I had became also "hers" - work colleagues eventually too. The process of it happening, I saw nothing problematic, it became a problem and my world overnight became very small and isolated. Down to a handful plus my family who have been the rock through this. So spending too much time indoors is a bit weird to finally have to go outside, and the anxiety from the relationship was heightened to go with that. I was fortunate and now more grateful in hindsight to reach out and given a support scaffold to start work on. I was so rare in life a "reacher-outter", it felt it was the last card to use that was left. In other words, I still feel a sense of surreal to be here, hundreds of posts in.  

 Im sorry your daughter has that level of anxiety and pleased to hear she has you.

Im not much of a wordsmith B53, "chat" might sound too lackadaisical for what we are both doing here. maybe "hard work" should substitute.

  

Personally, I feel one life was enough.

was wondering if you felt like sharing what the real you thought of the numerologists findings? (instead of the persona)  

Thanks enjoyed listening to those songs, I had not heard before. I dont have one for my ex anymore, I did, they became dissociated over time. Hope you are finding stuff to keep the covid boredom at bay. Ive started to read a lot more, joined a zoom reading club. I will look into finding a dance instructor B53, something for now to look foward to, thanks for the encouragment. all the best.

[B53]

Cromwell,
The day was going so well, then my worst fear came true. The dreaded email. It was short. He said that his therapist told him it was over. He said it wasn't unexpected, but disappointing.He said that I'll be on his health insurance until the end of the year. He wants to stop by after the holidays and get the rest of his stuff. I told him that I was more than disappointed but I have to accept the reality that our relationship was based on attachment and not real love. That there was the possibility that he could recover, but unless he was willing to get inpatient treatment, there is no way to tell how long it would take. That he has broken up with me four times in the last six months and I don't see that ending anytime soon. I told him that I will be away over the holiday and he can come get his stuff then. At the end I sent him the copy of part of an article that tells about why the BPD relationship is not love. I know my words were wasted, but it was really for me, not him. I knew that I was going to receive this email at some point because there were still lose ends. I really don't want to piss his off, until I get the health insurance taken care of. I asked him not to write back. I will be surprised if he starts bothering me, though I have been surprised before. His therapist said to let her know if he does. What I thought was a little strange was that when I ended it with his therapist, she said goodbye and sounded like we would talk again. Maybe she was just being polite.

I'm sad, but I hold the image of the last time he left and took his stuff and left the key. I try to think of the good times and see him as a child in the oversized suit. Right now, I am feeling sorry for myself and negative self talk of why couldn't of it worked out. I'm tired, I just want to find peace. Then there is a part of me that is glad it's finally over.

I know how it feels to have your ex being involved in other parts of your life. You're lucky to have family. My family is a mess. My mother was a narcissist and she had a covert way of pitting her children against each other. Apparently I was perceived as the favorite, which doesn't make me the favorite sibling. They can't see that she didn't love any of us. My brother and sister wanted so badly to hear her say that she loved them, I realized fairly young that it wasn't happening.Which is why I probably was the favorite, I left her alone. My sister has called me twice in six weeks (she's so supportive) and of course she mentioned that she's been talking to my ex about the beach.

Well I'll get back to you on the numerology thing when I'm thinking a little straighter.
 
 BTW I was reading one of the posts where the them was about thoughts of revenge. As you can probably tell by now, I have a song for everything. This is the best revenge song.
 Pray for you by Jaron and the Long Road of Love
 
Thanks for reading my rant.

[Enabler]

Hey B53,

Sorry to hear you've received 'the email' even if you knew it was coming. I have to admit I'm triggered by email now as I've received quite a few of 'the email's' and they never seem to be news I want or like.

Reading your posts and various discussions with Cromwell I wanted to circle back on a couple of things I picked up on. Firstly, your codependancy, and secondly your perception of love or not love.

The term codependancy is batted around a lot these days and sometimes I believe it's poorly applied to people. To me codependancy is where an individual is reliant on a another persons dysfunction for something or a sense of self. A mother who doesn't want her son to leave so buys drugs for him, if he were to leave (and maybe get clean) she would be lonely. A husband who buys drink for his wife feeding her alcoholism because it gives him a sense of superiority over her when she's drunk and chaotic. Left to buy her own drink she might get sober and realise she can do better than him and leave, he would be lonely and believes he won't find anyone else. When people use the term codependancy they see acts of kindness as somehow 'with agenda', like a transaction. To me there is another set of people and actually these people are not so sick after all, they just need a little bit of training to value their own effort, value themselves and learn to allocate their own resources better. Some call this group caretakers or enablers. I guess it depends on the nuances and motivations and it's a fine line. If I think about what a healthy relationship looks like, in an ideal world I see the following (using stick people as examples:

Healthy relationship -    ||   two people standing strong on their own two feet... but sometimes one has needs support   /|   and sometimes the other person needs support    |\   and maybe sometimes they both need to support each other /\ . Each person brings different skills to the relationship and in an ideal world those skills compliment each other such that over time the support each other offers to the relationship is equitable. BOTH parties show kindness, caring and supportive behaviour actually even when the other person doesn't deserve it. Both parties are outward looking and in many respects looking to put the other person before themselves in acts of loving generosity... and you see if both parties are doing that there's no net loss to either party, for what they are giving away in some areas they are receiving in others since both parties are giving away their surplus. It's a symbiotic relationship.

Unhealthy relationship - One party is persistently reliant on the other |\ or /|  . There might be short periods where the supportive party forces the supported partner to stand up   | |  but this is often met with resentment or punishment, similarly when the supportive partner needs support the supported partner may feel uncomfortable and run away  / ...<run>...|  . Another outcome could be where the supportive partner spends so much time supporting the other they both end up flat on the floor as the supportive partner finally breaks _ _ . This is a sacrificial or parasitic relationship. 

I suppose the point I am getting at is that I see you talk about some of your amazing qualities as a person you have as negatives or part of a sickness. When in actual fact they are things to be treasured, things that are ABSOLUTELY necessary for a strong healthy relationship. These are the corner stones of agape love. The trick is to find someone whom will do 2 things... not take too much of you, and permit you to take some of them. Both parties should give, both parties should benefit and both parties should thrive. The sum should be greater than the parts.

To my second point... Love or not love and is there a clear delineation between the two. People have attempted to define love for centuries, people way smarter than me, so I'll not try and break new ground there other than to describe what I think constitutes agape love. You've raised 3 kids I see, so you know that loving a baby is different from loving a teenager in a practical sense (demonstrating your love) but much the same from a fundamental perspective.   In a practical sense you loved your babies enough to want to change their nappies or to feed them, but as your children grew older you loved them enough to buy them new clothes... BUT, you also loved them enough to allow them to be them, you loved them enough to be able to let them do things that were uncomfortable for you or against what you would want, because you knew they had a rite to be who they wanted to be. You were able to deal with your own discomfort putting them before you. This to me is the defining point where those with personality disorders be that NPD or BPD fall down. They're not fully capable of putting others needs before their own. I'm not sure I'd say that they are not capable of love or what happens is not love, but it certainly seems to me that if you're constantly searching for things to love you (and meet your needs) and be shown love by others, you're never likely to experience love, since love requires one to give to others, to place others before yourself. Love becomes a transaction  where the currency is rescue and the reward might be momentary adoration. My love for my kids at the moment is being demonstrated by standing back and allowing them to make a complete mess of the kitchen whilst they try and cook cakes... and then helping them clear up the mess afterwards. Your Mum probably loves you, she just loves you in her own particular way, unfortunately it would seem she's so all consumed by her own needs she feels she has little in the way of surplus to give away to others, or what surplus she does have she is entitled (because of her endless hardship) to keep for herself.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings

New-Life

[B53]

New-Life,
Thanks for your rambling. It was informative and insightful. I received an email back fro my ex. And this what he wrote.

I’ve come to learn how powerful your words can be to me and so I have only read the first 2 lines of your email which will be the context of my response.  I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  My side of our relationship was based on love.  I loved you then and I love you now.  As incomprehensible as it is, that was how my mind expressed love.  It’s how I received love as a child and so it was what was developed in my childhood brain.  Over the past 33 days, I’ve been immersed in an self-imposed program or journey of deep thinking, self-reflection and learning.  As painful as it is to admit, I’ve come to realize that I did the same thing to you that my parents did to me.  And you reacted in the same way as I did.  You rose up and revolted against me.  So I can understand your pain.  I have a lot of my own pain, and I also carry the pain of you & XXX & of many other people that I’ve hurt along the way.  I can only rightfully allow myself to at most be disappointed.  I brought this on myself.  I’ve let you down so many times now that I really can’t let myself think that the odds are good for you to be willing to keep believing in me.  So as much as I want to, I can’t be the one to make the decision about where the relationship goes from here.  You have to be the one to decide if you want to believe in me.  I’ve been journaling most of this journey that I’ve been on and I’m willing to share with you some of what I’ve written about the highs and lows along the way if it might help. 
with real love XXX

You wrote
  BOTH parties show kindness, caring and supportive behaviour actually even when the other person doesn't deserve it. Both parties are outward looking and in many respects looking to put the other person before themselves in acts of loving generosity... and you see if both parties are doing that there's no net loss to either party, for what they are giving away in some areas they are receiving in others since both parties are giving away their surplus. It's a symbiotic relationship.

This to me is the defining point where those with personality disorders be that NPD or BPD fall down. They're not fully capable of putting others needs before their own. I'm not sure I'd say that they are not capable of love or what happens is not love, but it certainly seems to me that if you're constantly searching for things to love you (and meet your needs) and be shown love by others, you're never likely to experience love, since love requires one to give to others, to place others before yourself. Love becomes a transaction  where the currency is rescue and the reward might be momentary adoration.

I think that what he said kind of proves your point. He couldn’t even finish reading what I had to say. He couldn’t take the discomfort. He expects me to read what he has to say, but is unwilling to let me be heard.

It would seem that his email would be difficult and the best would be NC, but for me it is just reinforcing the reason we are ending this.

It’s interesting that he knows that it has been 33 days, I had no idea how long it’s been.

Your thoughts?
Thanks, B53

[Cromwell]

Hi B53

The day was going so well, then my worst fear came true. The dreaded email. It was short.

Sounds like you expected one to arrive, and it eventually did, but that it arrived today came as a bit of a surprise to how the day otherwise was going.

I can recall vividly the first text I got after such a long time, 9 months no contact. That was 2 years ago, if I was asked to describe it - so many other memories have faded, that one is vivid-recall. (how I "felt") from seeing it, to opening it, to reading the content. So I relate to think that today might very likely be a very big thing to go through.

I'm tired, I just want to find peace.

 it can be a lot to go through all at once, energy sapping and in the midst of it my own experience - being reactive was so common for me. sometimes it seemed to work out ok, other times I felt pressured to, sort of brain stalled but responding like a learned automatic reflex and the end result was mixed results, except for a feeling of being each time overwhelmed, not in control of the pace, vulnerable emotionally.

If this is familiar in any way, I'd like to give friendly reminder - you have these options - to delay, distance, rest and take what can feel too much into bitesize amounts. If there is this pressure, that you have the option to let it gradually vent to a state you feel better about. There is time later to reflect too.  

here for you B53, all of us, a few clicks away whenever that may be. see you later.   Cromwell

[B53]

Thanks Cromwell,
It’s nice to know, that there are people who care. When I was writing my ex the email that I sent him, I went on line looking for an article to quote about how  BP love. It was strange as well as ironic. It didn’t seem to matter how I worded my search, the articles that kept coming up seemed to include how successful therapy was for BPD. In the past I might have taken it as a sign.

Did you read the email that my ex wrote that I put in my response to New-Life? I would like to know  your thoughts on it. 

I didn’t sleep well last night and I’m feeling sad. I would like to believe that we could end this all maybe feeling sad but realizing it is for the best on both sides. I don’t think that it is going to happen. I expect there may be a tantrum from him, when it finally sinks in.

[Enabler]

Hey B53,

Imparting information from someones messages more than what they say on face value is tricky, I could read this one way, Cromwell another and you another. I'm sure you don't need me to say this but this is one data point you have among many. I sense you have hope and you're looking for glimmers of change in your ex... maybe signs that he's safe for you again. Self reflection is one thing, willingness and ability to make changes is a different story. The relationship didn't work because he is him and you are you.

I’ve come to learn how powerful your words can be to me and so I have only read the first 2 lines of your email which will be the context of my response.  I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  My side of our relationship was based on love.  I loved you then and I love you now.  As incomprehensible as it is, that was how my mind expressed love.  It’s how I received love as a child and so it was what was developed in my childhood brain.

He is triggered by your emails, possibly because they invalidate his view of himself and his role in the relationship. Like all of us do, he has a view or narrative about himself and the way he is and you are challenging that. You are challenging what Love looks like to him. The next bit to me is interesting and he makes a very good point about perspective. So, my STBexW's Mum doesn't like other people having success, it would appear it just makes her feel jealous and enraged. So, imagine you're her daughter, if you do well in a test you get sneered at, if you're sick however you get pampered and hugged and shown affection. Pity = Love. So my W has and likely always will attract love through being a victim rather than being successful... as she learnt at a young age that success was punishable with contempt and being a victim received affection. He has a sense of understanding about himself here.

Over the past 33 days, I’ve been immersed in an self-imposed program or journey of deep thinking, self-reflection and learning.  As painful as it is to admit, I’ve come to realize that I did the same thing to you that my parents did to me.  And you reacted in the same way as I did.  You rose up and revolted against me.  So I can understand your pain.

He's trying self help, this might work, it might not but it's likely to be more powerful if it's done with a professional... but he and only him can push that agenda and he has to be willing to want to push through the painful parts of long term therapy.

He is identifying that the bullied became the bully... and your reaction to his bullying was the same as his. In some ways you could say that his is identifying that he has responsibility here.

I have a lot of my own pain, and I also carry the pain of you & XXX & of many other people that I’ve hurt along the way.  I can only rightfully allow myself to at most be disappointed.  I brought this on myself.  I’ve let you down so many times now that I really can’t let myself think that the odds are good for you to be willing to keep believing in me. 
So as much as I want to, I can’t be the one to make the decision about where the relationship goes from here.  You have to be the one to decide if you want to believe in me.  I’ve been journaling most of this journey that I’ve been on and I’m willing to share with you some of what I’ve written about the highs and lows along the way if it might help.
with real love XXX

He's asking, not telling, you to have faith in his long term change.

What are you thoughts on what would constitute realistic evidence of commitment to long term change? As a reactive-non I've written a few emails like this claiming that things would be different, that I wouldn't shout (back) and get angry (back) when the crazy making arrived... but I think I only gained inner calm and perspective on what was happening and my contribution to the relationship after several years of therapy and time here.

NL

[B53]

New-Life,
Thanks, I needed  perspective and I have come to a similar conclusion. I agree that I do have a glimmer of hope, but I also know in reality that the chances of a good outcome are slim to none. He has always taken responsibility for his actions after the fact. He takes responsibility that the relationship failed because of him. I have no doubt that in less than three months he would walk out and leave me again. BPD is still driving the bus.  At the moment, he is anything but safe. I’m not sure how I would ever know if he was better and by the time this happens, hopefully I will have moved on and will be having a much better life. Maybe if he went to inpatient therapy then I might consider it.

He is in therapy and the therapist has experience with BPD and abuse. She spent time working at Sheppard Pratt, which at one time was a world renowned mental health hospital. I’m not sure it still is. He is also in a DBT program. I was included in his initial consultation with her. I spoke first and gave her examples of the dynamics of our relationship. He sees her once a week, which I don’t think is enough for his recovery to move very quickly.

I think the fact that he couldn’t read my whole email is very telling. It shows his inability to empathize with me.  He doesn’t want to know how I think or feel. On the other hand he doesn’t even doubt that I wouldn’t read his email. It’s always about him. He also said that he loved me in the past the way he learned from his parents. He was abused, that wasn’t love. He is unable to do the give and take you were talking about before. There is nothing in it for me.

His email just reinforces that I’m doing the right thing. This may help me, not set me back. I have experienced relationships that were loving and I have come to recognize how much is lacking. The pain of moving on will  be a lot easier than living in a relationship we’re love is not returned.

Getting feedback from others is very helpful. Thanks again.
B53

[Enabler]

Just to say,

I’ve come to learn how powerful your words can be to me and so I have only read the first 2 lines of your email which will be the context of my response.

I'm not 100% sure this means he didn't read your whole email, but maybe that the first 2 lines were enough for him to write a response on... maybe. I personally would struggle to not read the whole message from a supposed loved one.

A relationship doesn't have to be black and white, on or off, therapy isn't fast and it takes time. Once a week is what the professional feels is appropriate. Work... or thinking... or change... or "dealing with" happens between sessions. If him "getting better" is part of your decision making process then you will need to be realistic about that and work out whether or not this is going to fit with your needs.

NL

[B53]

NL
He didn’t read the rest of the email, but when I didn’t respond, then he read it and got back to me, but in the mean time I had written one back.
 
In the first email I said that for me to return he would have to go to inpatient recovery. He responded that inpatient would cost 50K and ask if there was something he could do that insurance would cover.

In the next email I said that I believe that he loved me the best way he knew how and that he was wonderful when it came to meeting my physical needs but he was unable to meet my emotions needs and I gave him examples. An example being- one of the arguments had something do with me ( as we know, most of the time you have no idea what it is you did wrong, and I’m still not sure I understand this one) hitting him while I slept and something to do with the covers. I pointed out that he was concerned about my reaction to him, but he was never concerned about what he was doing to me and not only was he interrupting my sleep, but he was leaving me coverless, therefore I was cold. I also know that I didn’t hit him, I just forcefully pulled to get the covers back. I also pointed out that he would expect me to read his emails, but because he didn’t want to read something that I said, that he wouldn’t like, he didn’t give me the same consideration I gave him and read mine. Once again it all being about him.

Then I told him that I think his therapist is wonderful and doing a great job, but an hour a week, a course in DBT and a workbook was not going to quickly address the problem. That he does not yet have the skills to handle even normal relationship issues and in three months I would be alone again picking up the pieces of my broken heart. He would have to decide what is his price for happiness. I feel that he needs to have a complete and detailed assessment. I said that I am not a therapist and I would listen to the professionals, but maybe something along the lines of exploring the different areas of neuroplasticity and then have a detailed plan put in place. I also said that I would not even consider continuing our relationship without some professional guidance.
 
He said that he understood and would respect my wishes and not bother me again. It’s not like him to give up so easily so I think he is going to discuss the idea of more extensive programs with his therapist. So he will actually leave me alone or he will come back with options. If he does, I will make a decision based on the information presented and if he doesn’t, I will continue with detaching and moving on. So that’s how I left it.
Once again, what are your thoughts?

Thanks again for your input.
B53

[Enabler]

B53,

What's the need for urgency? What's the need for on or off?

You are where you are an he is where he is and for now it would seem that is the best place for you both to take stock and consider your own involvement in the relationship.It's very very difficult to see all the moving parts when you're still in the fight, and I'm going to suggest you're still in the fight.

One of the biggest things about T is being able to come to conclusions yourself about you. Admitting things to yourself, things that you have been denying for many many many years is key part, radically accepting your impact on others. I would stop pushing the agenda of back together, stop pushing the agenda of inpatient T. Instead if you feel inclined offer caring support. Neither of you seem to be in a place where you can effectively offer each other what they need. He likely needs a non-judgemental ear and someone who's not going to be triggered by a vast amount of baggage. You need someone to take ownership, be stable and attentive to YOUR emotional needs. He's not in that place now and rightfully so he's focusing on his treatment and his emotional needs. You might consider the same. You can be as mad as a mad dog at the way things went. You could swear, curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go.

When I say let go, I don't mean let go of all hope and all aspirations you have for him. I mean let go of the need to be one thing or the other. Be open to yourself that NEITHER OF YOU are in the right place at the moment. But, maybe one day you both will be, and time (lots of it) may tell. If he chooses not to read your emails, maybe that's what he needs to do. If you want to tell him anything, tell him where you're at, tell him nothing about him, he needs to take those steps himself.

Maybe he gave up because he's moving to a different place. Not a nasty place, just a place where he knows it's unwise for him to go. Maybe he's learning a few things from his T... that's what I mean about the gap between T sessions, it's all helping. There's a difference between being taught, and learning.

NL

[B53]

NL,
I understand what you’re saying and I know things take time, but I don’t have the time that you do. I need to be realistic.  I’m  67 years old and I don’t have the time to sit around and wait. My dad died at 83 and my mom at 89. Both of them were not very mobile in the last 5 or more years of their life. So I would say I probably can count on having at least 15 more good years left, may be more. I don’t think at 40 that you are able to comprehend what it means to be so close to the end of your life.   I’ve been told that “ I look good for my age” and the last three guys that I have dated have been 4 years younger, but time is affecting me at a far more accelerated rate than you. I do well on my own and I’m sure I can have a happy fulfilling live alone, but I would like to share these years with someone. People in relationships actually live longer than people who aren’t. I will not wait around if I am not in some way actively involved in his recovery and I would need to  have support while I do it. I agree that us getting back together should be done at a slow rate. I can’t stand by just to be supportive and not have a goal. I’m either all in or all out.

It’s fine if “ that’s where he needs to be” and if that’s true, that is a good thing that he is able to come to that conclusion. That would be growth. The purpose of my email was to tell him where I stand and was not meant to be judgmental and he didn’t take it as such. I wouldn’t jump back into this relationship. I would need counseling to help me go forward and learn how we both need to connect in a positive way. I don’t think that a total evaluation would not be helpful, no matter what our outcome is. Inpatient is what is actually suggested to have a successful recovery.

The anger that I feel,  is towards his parents who physically abused him and left him to deal with the fallout. I have zero anger towards him or what he did to me. If he could control it, he would have. It was not personal and it was not taken that way. I have been his biggest fan and have been supportive. I tell him things to try to get him to understand, not to judge him.

I actually believe this relationship is over. I thought what I asked for was a lot to expect and didn’t believe he would even consider it. It was kind of a way to say that I needed to much from him for it to work. A way to say that ending it would be the best for both of us.

B53

[Enabler]

I tell him things to try to get him to understand, not to judge him.

I agree with everything you've said and you are very very clear about your position and seem to have a great handle on what your needs are and that given the time frame you have in mind those would be wasted years. You're right, I don't see time in the same way that you do, however my father died at 69, his at 70 and my other grandfather at 72 so odds are I have another ~30yrs and of the last 23 years I have spent ~9yrs treading water waiting for my W to come back to me. It's tough to say that was/is a waste of time as good things including my 3 D's have come out of it. But things certainly could have been different.

Regarding the comment I highlighted above. This is ultimately the point... your intention is honourable, to get him to understand, and this comes from a caring place. BUT, he very likely doesn't see it this way. Often pwBPD can't deal with dichotomous thinking i.e. balance two things at once... good people do bad things, bad people do good things. They tend not to think in the grey. So rather than hearing "you did a bad thing but you're a good person" he probably hears "you're a bad person" and then maybe extrapolates out all the things that bad people are. Your intentions are great, but it's incredibly difficult to communicate these things in a way that is genuinely helpful to a pwBPD or BPD traits. He will be super sensitive to shame of any form. He needs to come to those conclusions himself.

It now seems like you've got an opportunity to decide what moving forward looks like. Do you support him as a friend, or do you cut ties and walk away? What do they both look like for you both? Is supporting him as a friend even possible?

NL

[B53]

NL
I wouldn't be able to be just friends. He would always push for more. I would feel like I was in limbo. Can't stay, can't go. I need to detach. Also if I started dating again, he would go ballistic.

His replied to my email, thanking me for my heartfelt response. I think he does understand what I am saying. When he hasn't switched to that crazy guy, he seems rational. He is able to talk about how his thinking was distorted and he comes to conclusions. When we started having problems he bought an hour glass. He said that the next time something comes up, that we will wait an hour and then come back and talk, but he was not able to do it, because he doesn't have that kind of control on his emotions. I don't know if he can see gray areas with me, but he does with others. He will say that he doesn't like the way someone acts, but will say he is still fond of them. I have mentioned many times in my writings, that he is a little different than the BPDs that I read about in these posts. He would go several months without acting out, there was never any lying or cheating, he finishes projects and doesn't have replacements waiting on the side. He didn't date at all until his daughter went away to college. He has had the same job for 20 years and he spent 20 years in the military before that. He gets along well with his colleagues. He idealized and devalued, but it seemed to me that he often reacted when things were too good (engulfment).

I know he was looking for inpatient or out patient programs because he said that without insurance it would cost 50K and would maybe a program that offers less, that he could afford be ok. I don't think he has dismissed the possibility, though his therapist might intervene.

I was doing well, detaching. I was reminding myself that he has the emotional level of a child. When he first contacted me, I wanted nothing to do with reconciling. Then the walls came down and I starting thinking about the good things, which I hadn't thought about for awhile and wondered if there could be hope, though I knew it was magical thinking. Yesterday I felt sad and emotional most of the day. I woke up feeling more together today and am back in a good place again.There is always a underlying feeling of sadness that hasn't gone away since this all started.I feel communication has ended and he will leave me alone at least for awhile.

How are things going with you?
B53

[Enabler]

B53,

Your emotions are likely too fluctuate and those waves are all part of the growth process, you will likely find them oscillate less and less and you'll get back to happy quicker each time. I remember my T telling me that I was like a floppy rubber band when I first saw him in 2016, every time I'd receive an emotional blow I'd flap around all over the place for several weeks before getting myself back together. I think I'm down to an hour or so now. I still get the emotional shocks but the impact is way shorter.

Today I have some random anxiety. I go deaf in my ears and have a ringing sound, also have an upset stomach and a bit apprehensive... I can't put my finger on what exactly it is, I have a mediation session with my STBexW on Tuesday and she has announced that she will be sending me revisions to her divorce deal and comments on mind on Monday... not much time to digest. I also have a T appointment tonight, first in 6 weeks. These are the obvious things but there's nothing specific and usually there's something specific I'm running through my head an ruminating heavily on... so this is odd.

What have your boundaries been like with him when bad things happen in the past? You say bad things happen infrequently but clearly it's unpleasant enough to warrant you being unhappy with it. What have you done in the past to train him that when bad stuff happens or even looks like it's going to happen, you're not going to be there?... and when I say "you're not going to be there", I don't mean abandon him, I mean much like the hour glass, you're going to force a time out.

NL

[B53]

NL
I'm so sorry that you feel anxious. That is a truly awful feeling. I think everything that you mentioned would make me anxious. Every time I have feeling new or old I start googling. There is alway something written about everything. Even if I don't find what I'm looking for, I find something that peeks my interest and keeps me busy. I think I mentioned earlier that my daughter gets panic attack. I always feel so helpless, the only thing I can do is be there. Is the ringing in your ear always a sign? Do you meditate? I heard it's really good. I was thinking about trying it again, it's been years. Do you ever listen to the Ted Talks? I'm sure there are several on anxiety. You have been so helpful to me, I want to be supportive. I can listen.

Once your divorce is over, will you have to see her again?

When he goes off, I don't argue back and I just stay away until the nice guy comes back and then we talk about it. Unfortunately that can last a week or more. Also in the last 6 mos., when it happens he breaks up with me. He said that he told his T that there is voice in his head that tells him that it isn't what he really wants to do, but the words still come out. He turns into someone else. He even looks different, especially his eyes.

So I didn't think I would hear from him again, but I did. He asked if there was any chance at all that we could get back together. He said other than work his main focus is getting better. He said he wants to show me that he can be the man I deserve. The reason that I stayed as long as I did, was because he was always willing to do what I ask to make things better. We even went to counseling, which he initiated, but the guy was awful, he had no idea what he was dealing with. If I asked him to stand on his head he would do it.

My answer will probably be, more intensive counseling, couples concealing and individual counseling for me, which he would have to pay for because I am on fixed income and that wouldn't fit in my budget. Also our first meet up would probably need to be done with a counselor and we need to have a plan in place to move forward. Most articles about BPD always say it is treatable. There is a Podcast called From Borderline to Beautiful and it is run by a recovering BP.

Am I a fool to even consider this?

I hope you feel better.  It's interesting how logical one can be, when the problem Isn't theirs. I'm here for you!

B53

Do you know what our time difference is?


 

[Enabler]

So, I'm going to use the example of kids again, it's a common experience for both of us. I have 3 girls as you know, and D7 is a boundary basher. If there's a fence, she'll be shaking it to see if it falls over. I've deduced over the past few years that although natural for most kids to do this, we've trained her to make it an art form. Typically in the house, D7 would try her luck with a boundary, the boundary would be be met with resistance, she would shake harder, the boundary would fall over... next time resistance would be higher, but ultimately the fence would fall. This in turn promoted an ever escalating cycle of resistance, and conflict till it reached the point where a 6yr old was telling their parents they were a  . This has pretty much ceased in my home since my W moved out and I was able to hold the boundary consistently and without drama. Both are as important as each other.

So I can't tell you if you're a fool for even considering continuing the relationship with him. In some respects when I consider what you have said and how his issues are a known known (especially by him) and treatment is occurring there's no telling what the outcome could be. Whatever that outcome is, I think it is very important to consider your own actions in the drama. It's easier said than done and often when I look back at my own past I wonder what else I could have done differently. My wife has left twice before, each time she came back I felt grateful that she did, I bent myself into all sorts of shapes trying to accommodate her... but then I didn't know then what I know now. My W had resolved her side of the relationship and had "gotten her way" but I felt to afraid and too scared of losing her to address what I wasn't getting from her. Drawing parallels with my D7, I was training my W to escalate conflict such that my boundaries would fall over. She came away believing it was her with poor boundaries and that I was the only one with errant behaviour. Things are different for you clearly, you don't react, he goes away and it seems much clearer who the dysfunctional person is... BUT, how is it that he has come and gone multiple times? How are you going to demonstrate that YOU will not tolerate this kind of behaviour. There's a fine line between good boundaries and punishment. Without effective, clear and firm boundaries, how will you train him that this is unacceptable? I suppose the question is, could you ever let him back in without making this just a continuation of the escalating cycle of conflict, leave, beg, comes back?

Great session with T last night, hearing is back to normal. Yippee

NL

[B53]

NL,
I'm glad your feeling better! Did you ever figure out what was bothering you?

I woke up feeling depressed. I wrote him and told him what I needed for me to consider going back. Right now I don't care either way what he decides.

I'm not sure boundaries that I make will change the cycle. Nothing matters when he is in that place. The only thing that will change it is, him learning how to stop it before it gets to that point. That is why I am insisting on therapy that is focused on that alone. I don't know if I know how to set the boundaries I need, that is why I won't proceed unless there are many support systems in place. I need help to set boundaries that are clear and precise. He won't be able to color me as the bad guy, if someone else is involved. I told him that the longer I sit here alone the more likely I will detach and move on. I'm not waiting around. It's either now or never.

I have been thinking about my FOO. They don't get me. They can only see me in relation to who they are, what they need. It's hard to admit to yourself that your family really doesn't care about you. You can't get blood from a stone.

I hope you have an enjoyable day!
B53

[Enabler]

I'm not sure boundaries that I make will change the cycle. Nothing matters when he is in that place. The only thing that will change it is, him learning how to stop it before it gets to that point.

Lets go back to D7... I was part of that cycle. She couldn't break the cycle herself nor did she have any incentive to. No doubt she felt powerful (for a change as the little one of the family) when she was raging round the house calling me and anyone else a  ... but I could break the cycle. Like it or not, almost not T under the sun is going to return to you a perfectly functioning emotionally flatlining individual. If you are to be part of this process, you are part of his learning, his training. I'm not sure you can wish that another person changes so completely without any changes yourself.

Might I also advise a pause...

I woke up feeling depressed. I wrote him and told him what I needed for me to consider going back. Right now I don't care either way what he decides.

You woke up emotional, you then wrote something to an emotional person no doubt full of emotions. I'm guessing you hoped that that emotional message would be taken as constructive and not emotional. You didn't care either way how he takes that message... but later on you might be less emotional and think differently. One thing that I have learnt in the last 4 years is that I respond too quickly. My response (actually lets call them reactions) are filled with emotions and that only goes to trigger my STBex. If I could recall the emails I wrote in the first year of our issues I might be in a different boat now. I read them now and don't disagree with the content in the slightest, I don't disagree with the emotions either... but, vs the outcomes I had in mind at the time they were utterly inappropriate. I implore you to write these emails... but hold them for AT LEAST 24 hours, then review them when you know you're at an emotional baseline. Edit then send if you still think it's appropriate and aligns with your objectives.

Like I said before, I'm not sure now is the time to tell him what YOU need is, coercing him into a specific type of T is unlikely to be fruitful... who would he be doing the T for? You... or Him... he HAS to do it for Him for it to have any chance of success.

Who in particular do you think of when you say your FOO doesn't get you?

NL

[B53]

NL
You made a really good point. When he said that he was doing it for me, I told him he needed to do it for him not me and then I turned around and asked him to do it for me. The email that I responded to was from yesterday. My response was emotional, but it was more about me. Kind of a pity party about how I was feeling about life at the moment. Like how absent my sister and daughter have been. I'm there for them, but they are no where to be seen when I need someone. He knows the family dynamics. The only one who has been a true friend is my sister in law, who by the way is British. Her family is still there. She actually just face timed me. She is married to my brother who doesn't speak to me. She tells me that I have been nothing but kind and the issue is theirs. Like I said earlier, it has to do with me being the favorite. I said that I need to make friends that are supportive and caring and I'm sure he could see that he could be included in that group. I said that I have to start taking care of me more and befriend people who appreciate what I have to offer.

I have said what I have to say and I'm done. I'm at the point that what I say from now on will just be repeating what has been already said. He is not totally void of empathy, but your right, he will probably process what I said differently than  how it was intended. Rehashing it is not going to make it any clearer. I did say that what I want should be presented to his therapist or a professional because I don't really know what's best for him and if what I want is not doable, then I will accept that. I know that there is no cure and no matter how much work he does, there will be times that he will react in his old ways. I could deal with that if it was only occasionally.

To be honest, I am making this hard to do on purpose. I know it would probably be the best for me to move on. It would take a lot of jumping through hoops to change my mind. If that is actually done then I would follow through. I don't think the therapist will back me up and may feel the plan he has in place is the best. Then at this point there is nothing in it for me and I can move on feeling that I didn't just slam the door in his face.

My (FOO) family of origin would include parent's, siblings and children. Mostly I am speaking of my sister. She is covertly mean to me. Everything she does comes with a price. When my daughter was a teenager (at the age when you rebel against your parents)she went to my sister to complain about me and instead of supporting me as a parent, she joined in the bashing. She never had children and she always wanted them, but decide to marry a rich man instead. He made it clear before they were married, that he didn't want anymore. He has two grown sons. I think the fact that I have 3 children was painful for her. What's interesting, is when my daughter needs help she comes to me.

I feel like you are being a good listener to me and giving me helpful advise and I'm not giving you much support. I don't want to be just a taker. Is there anything more that you would like to share with me?

Thanks for continuing to  respond! Your feedback means a lot.
B53

[Enabler]

Hey B53,

No need to worry about me, this is your thread so you're allowed to keep it about you and only you. 

You seem to be moving towards a decision albeit one where you've proposed something near impossible such that the final decision is taken out of your hands. You might want to think about that and consider how that might be transferring a bit of guilt. I don't think you have any need to feel guilty about walking away from this situation, especially since he has in effect walked away multiple times before. It might be better for you to be honest with him and yourself and live with that rather than propose ultimatums that you believe he could never deliver on.

FOO is a tricky one. It's great that your SIL is understanding and a good source of support. She likely see's both sides of the story and see's the complexity of it all. Maybe she see's the futility of her husbands position minus the emotional baggage that holds him in the conflict. Still, it's peculiar to have a better relationship with your SIL than your brother and I'm sure you wished it was the other way round.

Your daughter... now, this I might be able to shed some light onto. My father passed away in 2015. Mum is good and perfectly capable, but collapsed or appeared to collapse because of the her a lack of validation. My father was a strong, proficient problem solver and Mum and him worked well together. He said "that was great" and she continued about her business. Seemingly those 3 words meant a lot to her because when he was no longer around to say "that was great" she all of a sudden lost all confidence that she could do anything. She'd have an enormous flap over the simplest of tasks and call quite a lot to just hear me or one of my sisters say "that was great". I never saw this in her in the past. Now, before you say "this isn't at all like me", that's not my point. My point is that I hate having to say "that was great" to Mum as mentally I see her as strong and capable and perfectly apt at sorting herself out. I don't acknowledge her 'irrational' need for me to tell her that what she's doing is "great", and her calling me to ask me what I consider inane questions just so she has the confidence to do things feels downright irritating. This is a guess but I suspect that for the vast majority of your life you've been strong, capable and confident in your daughters eyes. You've never really asked or needed anything from her and it's likely just been one way with regards too emotional and physical support. You asking for emotional support from her is as weird to her now as it would have been for her when she was 10yrs old... and weird for her to give it. If she's anything like me, she has a fixed view of her Mum as strong and capable and in no need at all of emotional support. We might be older and in bigger bodies, but we've still got a pretty fixed view of how and what our parents are like. Young children are naturally narcissistic, especially towards their primary caregivers. In some respects I'm sure that even in the healthiest of adults, a little bit of this is retained.

NL

[Skip]

I think we should all have a healthy skepticism of "amateur youtube medicine".

Few of us would go to youtube to get a diagnosis of skin cancer - and if we did - most of use would not rely on it for much.

I think this you-tuber is very since and seems well intentioned. He videos aren't loaded with ads and he is not selling "BPD Survivor" book. That said, he doesn't have more insight into the disorder or the partners psychic than most new members here - he is really sharing a lot of older concepts and Internet lore on BPD.  BPD and the relationship we have all had with people with BPD tendencies are very complex and nuanced and that take a deeper dive to understand and be able to move forward with confidence.

The message in these videos (and his avatar on many of his graphics) are rooted in the concept of infant trauma and arrested emotional development as a and infant or toddler.

BPD is not necessary a by product of trauma. It is well known BPD traits appear to be heritable - they run in families. There are several notable studies of twins where one has BPD and one doesn't, that suggest that the traits can be inherented in as much as 60% of people with BPD.

The old "adult stuck in a "toddler" level of emotional development" was more of a metaphor than a literal thing...  in this video it very literal and it suggest that pwBPD are stuck in a 90 day old infants level of emotional development. Does it seem realistic that your partner emotions didn't develop after infancy - or in this example, they didn't develop after 90 days of life?


Date: Jan-2020Minutes: 0:58
How the Borderline Infects You With Their Mental Illness - Borderline Personality Disorder

The video also makes the point that he is only talking about people with full-blown BPD and then describes his ex-friend as successful, pretty, smart, etc. People with severe ("full-blown") have significant struggles in life, hospitalizations, work problems, addictions, etc. Many of the partners we have operate well below that level of dysfunction seen in clinical BPD including the speakers girlfriend and would not be considered clinically BPD based on his description of her..

His title, "How the Borderline Infects You With Their Mental Illness - Borderline Personality Disorder" is hard to reconcile.

His understanding and attachment of sociopathy as a symptom of BPD is a bit off. It is not typical. Studies show that 15% of people with BPD have anti-social traits.


Date: Jan-2020Minutes: 0:61
How the Borderline Infects You With Their Mental Illness - Borderline Personality Disorder

His understanding of "co-dependency" is also off as Cromwell pointed out.

I don't think any of this is malicious. The speaker is very self reflective and he is finding his way through via youtube clips just as members here are finding their way by posting.

The difference here is dialog and feedback. We work on our understanding of this disorder collectively.

[B53]

NL
You, always make good points. My SIL feels like my brother is a tortured soul. He has used his FOO story as an excuse for everything that is wrong in his life. My mom/mum didn’t like men. She certainly didn’t like my father. She did what at the time, very women is suppose to do, get married and have children. She raised showed dogs and most of her friends were gay men and women. My brother wanted to hear her say that she loved him, which never happened. He was six years older than my sister and seven years older than me. My mom was 21 when he was born. My dad had returned from the war and my parents lived with my grandparents until I was born, while my dad went to school. He was doted on by my grandparents. After I was born his whole life change. They moved, he had two sisters and my dad started working hard on his career, leaving him with my narcissistic mother. I asked my SIL if he was happy now that he banished me from his life. She said he is even more miserable then ever. I like the saying, don’t let other people rent space in your head. I think his head is very crowded.

I understand what you are saying about my daughter. I don’t expect her to be involved in helping me get through the breakup by hearing my feelings and listening to my woes. I just feel that she could call and see how I’m doing. The grandchildren FaceTime me one or twice a week, but mostly what she does, is to make sure the camera is  pointed in the right direction, so I can see them. It does mean a lot, that she does that and I should see that as her reaching out.

Now my ex. Yes, I would say that the situation does involve some level of guilt. The one thing about our forum is that it is about leaving and detaching. The BP partners are out of control and few seek  counseling and if they do, they don ‘t stick with it. Life is one drama after another. There is never a story of a BP getting help and things getting better and if there was, it wouldn’t be talked about here. The main theme here is save yourself, NC  and work on healing and move on. But if you do enough research, almost every article you read says that with the right help, they can go on and lead successful happy lives. If they get the proper therapy, many will no longer, meet the criteria. It doesn’t mean that their thinking will ever be the same as a nonBp, but they will be able to think through their thoughts and respond differently. My ex and I didn’t live a life of continuous drama, where there was one crazy thing after another going on. He was not paranoid about everything I did. In retrospect, I actually believe he is triggered by engulfment. Every time I started to feel deep love for him, it would start. It challenges his beliefs that he is lovable and he makes up stories in his head to prove he is right, therefore he can’t trust me.The weekend before the last episode we went hiking, had a great dinner and a fun evening. I told him, that it was the best day ever. Then it started.

So if that part of him would change, then I would want to be with him. I think he is giving it everything he’s got. But I am not holding onto the hope, that this could happen. I feel it would take extensive work, more than he is doing now. Maybe an unattainable task and unattainable solution. But if my a miracle it could happen, then I am there. The amount of time he has, gets less as time goes on. I am feeling better with each day and the further away the thoughts and memories are, the more the door closes and it will eventually be shut. I think by the time COVID ends, I will be ready to start my new life. I have been through breakups before and this one is moving along as it should. I don’t have the feeling like others, that there will never be a relationship as good as this. All the relationships I have had, have had the same amount, if not more excitement and fun as this one.

I look forward to you challenging the perspective of my thoughts.

Thanks, B53



Skip,
I appreciate your critique of this guy’s video. I don’t disagree that what he is saying isn’t off. I actually only watched two. Maybe his comparison of adult/child is incorrect. The place I was in when I started this post, is far from where I am not. At the time the two images were helpful. When I would start thinking about my ex as if he felt and thought like me, the child image helped focus on the fact, that he doesn’t. It helped me think about who he is, not what I was wishing he had been.
Thanks for your input!
B53

[Enabler]

B53,

Lovely point about those clips. Sometimes it's not the detail we concentrate on in these "tutorials" (thankfully) and it's more small points or concepts. In many respects pwBPD or BPD traits are similar to others and for that matter it feels tough to make a distinction  between them and us.,... I've certainly heard a lot of people tell me I shouldn't label my STBexW... but if it helps encapsulate that basket of "things" that defines "differences" then maybe it is helpful. I certainly know that until I discovered PD's I thought there was a clear distinction between crazy people and non-crazy people... crazy people being the ones that were in straight jackets and locked in padded cells and non-crazy was everyone else. I didn't give much thought to those people that seemed to cause great amounts of discomfort in my life, and more importantly what it was about those people that caused the discomfort. I sat next to an extremely difficult man for 8 years in my last job, he was firm wide known as horrible to deal with... yet no one once mentioned NPD. On reading about NPD it was a perfect encapsulation of him. Had I have known about NPD, I most likely could have learnt ways to "deal" with him, instead I bumbled on through trial and error just trying to survive. He certainly processed information in a different way, and I can't count the number of times he would act in a childish manner and I would mutter "grow up" or "child"... yet never thought to enquire why his behaviour resembled a child.

Re your daughter, does she know that you want to speak to her? Have you told her? Thinking personally, I can think of 2 motivations why I encourage my kids to speak to their grandmother... 1) I figure she doesn't need to speak to me as there's not much to tell her, she likes speaking to the kids and they like speaking to her 2) I have little in common with my Mum, I can't be overly natural with her and accepting she needs a "fix" of someone to talk to, I thrust a communication device in my kids hands as they don't much mind. We spend a lot of our lives trying to differentiate ourselves from our parents, sometimes it feels unnatural to reverse that and all of a sudden have endless amounts to say to each other.

NL

[B53]

NL,
To be fair to my daughter, I think  it upsets her when I’m sad. She also loves my ex.
So, you didn’t address the elephant in the room. Do you think that there is ever a time to continue a relationship with a BP who  has embraced recovery and has successfully done work in self  realization?  Or do you believe, they are a lost cause and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction? Is there ever a time to give them another chance? I’m not saying that I am, just want to know your thoughts.
B53

[brighter future]

NL,
To be fair to my daughter, I think  it upsets her when I’m sad. She also loves my ex.
So, you didn’t address the elephant in the room. Do you think that there is ever a time to continue a relationship with a BP who  has embraced recovery and has successfully done work in self  realization?  Or do you believe, they are a lost cause and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction? Is there ever a time to give them another chance? I’m not saying that I am, just want to know your thoughts.
B53

B53,

Based on my experiences with my BPD ex-wife, I would say that an individual who does not suffer from comorbidity has a better chance at recovery than someone that does. In the case of my ex-wife, she has BPD, OCD, Annorexia Nervosa, Bulimia Nervosa, Dissociative Disorder, anxiety disorder, etc.

While our divorce/custody battle was in full swing, a forensic custody evaluation was ordered by the court. A Phd psychologist was chosen as the court's expert because the court is not well versed in mental illness.  My attorney advised me to participate in the evaluation as she was banking on a normal evaluation for me and a disordered evaluation for my ex-wife.

My attorney's strategy was a good one. When the evaluation finally concluded, I received a normal evaluation (except for situational anxiety due to the legal drama). My ex on the other hand received a very negative evaluation, and the psychologist recommended that I be the primary residential parent. In the forensic report and in his court testimony, he stressed that it was highly unlikely that my ex-wife could be treated because of the comorbidity. When you have multiple disorders, it makes treatment and recovery extremely difficult and in most cases impossible. The psychologist was pretty much spot on with his recommendations and predictions (this evaluation concluded in late 2015). My ex is once again in inpatient treatment and has been gone for nearly two months. This is her 7th inpatient stay in 7.5 years. I've lost count of all of her outpatient stints. Even though my ex-wife and I have been divorced for nearly 6 years, my daughter, myself, and other family members that are close to me are still have to deal with the typical BPD drama from my ex-wife. I've come to accept the fact that I will be dealing with this negative behavior until my child turns 18, which is in several more years. Hopefully by then, I can put more distance between the ex and myself. The sad thing about this whole ordeal is my ex-wife can't be an effective and stable parent for our child. She's so wrapped up in her disorders, and she can't see our child as a separate person. The psychologist noted that she sees our child as an extension of herself and has even tried to project mental and physical ailments onto our child.  It's either that, or she out of the picture for months in inpatient therapy.

Does your ex have any other known disorders? If not, I believe she might have a better chance at recovery if she truly wants it. I wish you all the best in your journey.

[B53]

Brighter Future,
Thanks for your reply. He was physically abused as a child, so he probably has PTSD, never something he has mentioned as an issue. He also has ADD, which he taken medication for, almost 40 years. The medication works.
He said that when he is triggered, I become the critical parent, which he mentioned in the email above. That realization was after six months of counseling. Before the the breakup, he had three months of therapy and he already seem calmer. For example he came to me and said that there weren’t any eggs in the refrigerator and in the past that would have pissed him off (not at me). But he was able to think through it and got something else to eat and was ok with it.To him, he felt like it was a step forward. He also was always in a hurry when driving to get to his destination. He has never displayed road range. Now he has slowed down and he said that driving is more enjoyable. He is working on triggers, but I think that is going be his hurdle. He is not an all around crazy person and doesn’t act out a lot, except when something that either his daughter or I triggered.  His relationship with his daughter has improved tremendously. Like I said above, it’s often starts when things get too good, engulfment. He has never had issues with coworkers or other people in his life. He said they would be shock, if they saw it.
I was in the process of getting counseling, to learn skills in how to respond to him., but he broke up with me before that happened. Of course he wanted to get back together, but I had enough and thought it would take years.
 When he is in a fit and starts putting me down, my response was, that I didn’t look to him for myself esteem, which was true. Most of what he said was so ridiculous and untrue, so I couldn’t take it personally. Though he said a few things that hit below the belt.

It would take A LOT, for me to go back, but if he could REALLY get better, in a shorter amount of time, I might consider it.
B53

[Enabler]

B53,

What I think you're asking is whether or not you are allowed to have hope. Whether that hope is utterly futile and therefore foolish. As you know there are stages of grief and one of those stages is bargaining. Maybe, you're at that stage, maybe you're not... you've mentioned you're on a bit of a rollercoaster and from reading your posts it does seem that way. I don't want to stop you from moving through the phases by encouraging you to have hope and thus put you in a never ending loop of hope/anguish. We can always see hopeful things when we want to see them in as much as the opposite is true when we're depressed. Part of letting go is accepting that although there are things to be hopeful about, on balance the situation is not worth holding on to. It's unusual to have a situation that is all bad and therefore some element which isn't going to stimulate the sense of loss.

Life and people aren't perfect as you know. I can't remember which film it was I copied this down from but I have it in my notes:

Sure, in the beginning, it feels like it... it could be magnificent. And then you start to see, well, they got a couple of little flaws. You know? And that's okay. Because in the real world all you can do is hope to live with the little tiny perfections you find in the very flawed people you come across.

One of the primary hurdles with regards to change is genuinely accepting you have a problem. Accepting it, and typically sharing it with someone (preferably someone who is going to take it seriously and not excuse the problem away). Who can tell whether or not your Ex has seriously and genuinely accepted that he has a problem or whether or not he is going through the motions, maybe even enjoying the exploration with his T and improvements he's seen with regards to his outlook on life. T is like an onion, there's layers protecting the core pain, each session might pull back a layer, some vulnerability occurs, but each layers is dealt with getting closer and closer to the core of the issue. For some people the core "trauma" may well be locked away so deep it's out of the conscious mind. For others, like your Ex, they can talk about their trauma, but maybe they don't/didn't know how the trauma was being relived and replayed in their current life. You ex seems as though he is on a journey to exploring both his past and how it's interplaying with his current. That has to be positive for him, and could be life changing for him which would be awesome.

Self actualisation can take many many twists and turns. People can spend lifetimes thinking they're nailed it this time, yet in reality they got close to the core or peeled a layer of the onion and rather than dealing with it, they veer away from that pain smothering themselves in self justification and self delusion that they have "dealt" with it. This potentially leaves them battling the original wound and an even heavy defensive mechanism which is "I've done the work and I'm good now". 

I'm inclined to think that journeys of personal discovery are best done alone or with a neutral individual (maybe therapist). Partnership journeys are different and they tend to be complicated and muddied by unshared experiences. I sense that he needs to go to his wilderness to discover himself on his own. There's always hope if you want to look for it. This could be seen as more hopeful.

Small story... My Father was diagnosed one Friday with Small cell lung cancer, he was told he had an 80% chance he'd be dead in 3 months. He went home, told us kids and we were all devastated. On the Monday he got a call from the hospital and told to come in... On the Tuesday he was told there had been a development and actually he had an aggressive Lymphoma not small cell lung cancer and that with the right treatment and correct isolation from infections he had an 80% chance of living past 5 years. He had great hope, he did the chemo... then the trial drugs... the the radiotherapy... he died twice before finally passing away 18 months after diagnosis. Hope led him to live the final 18 months of his days in relative isolation, a stark contrast from the rest of his 68.5 years on earth. His hope was real and based on the probability outcome of his diagnosis, but for every 80 that live past 5 years, there's 20 that don't.

NL

[once removed]

It would take A LOT, for me to go back, but if he could REALLY get better, in a shorter amount of time, I might consider it.

When he said that he was doing it for me, I told him he needed to do it for him not me and then I turned around and asked him to do it for me. The email that I responded to was from yesterday. My response was emotional, but it was more about me. Kind of a pity party about how I was feeling about life at the moment

if you are at the point that "he fixes this/himself" or its over, then the relationship is pretty well shot.

because when a relationship has broken down this far, you really cant count on that. both parties are in wildly different places, emotionally speaking, and in terms of what they think is wrong with the relationship.

testing him to do so is mostly prolonging the agony, and the inevitable.

if you want to save this, more than likely, there is a chance, but it will require a very different approach.

[B53]

NL and OR,
Thanks, good input! I like to hear the truth and be called out when there is something I need to hear, even when I don't like it. 
I am 100% sure that he is accepting the problem. He has done a lot of reading and research. There is a podcast called, From Borderline to Beautiful, which is led by a recovering BP. I had him listen to, two particular podcasts. One was called, The FP or favorite person. She said, that the FP should be called the favorite host. She talked about how BPs set up their FP to fail. She said that their behavior is tyrannical, which is not love. It was pretty good and brutally, to the point. The other podcast was called, Why is everything always my fault? She pointed out, that BP people have a hyperbolic temperament and they think in hyperbolizes. She said that their brain thoughts were different from normal people. She talked about their inability to show empathy. And yes, everything is, most likely their fault. After listening he was almost in tears. He said, I don't even know who I am anymore. I didn’t know that there was something wrong with my way of thinking. It was an aha moment.
I did respond to several of his emails (not wise on my part) and when he didn't stop, I pointed out his lack of empathy and crossing boundaries. He listened. I think that was, causing, as you said, a never ending loop of hope/anguish. I agree that it is his journey, but I also think that if he is not in a relationship, he will never learn how to address his triggers. Not saying that relationship person, should be me. I read once, that if you put a BP alone on an Island they wouldn't act BP, because it’s all about interpersonal relationships as apposed to bipolar, who will still have symptoms. I had a double major in college, education/phycology. I never planned to do anything with the phycology, but I have always had a fascination, of how people work. I have taught four year olds for 29 years, so I know how to deal with childish temper tantrums. I think I did fairly well holding my own, for quite a while. I actually was looking forward to being involved with his recovery. It would have been a challenge and a learning experience. Learning how to constructively communicate with people, is a great skill to have. It would make me a better person OR totally codependent. When he packed up all his stuff and left the key, I finally just let him go. I was starting to react in a way that took years of therapy to overcome and I feared that I might start sliding backwards, and nothing is worth that. Then we would just be hurting each other. I’m not really convinced that he can change a lifetime behavior at his age and maybe it’s time for me to look for someone who is capable of loving me, without so much drama. Normal relationships are work enough. I’m telling myself that things are happening just the way they should. If it is meant to be, then it will and if not, then there is someone better waiting for me.

Yes, it would require a different approach and like I have said before, I would have to sit down with a professional to get an idea what I was in for. In my last email, I told him that it’s not my business to interfere with his therapy and that it is between him and his therapist. I know he is not ready to let go and he will show up for air again at some point. The more time away, the better prepared I will be to handle it. I haven’t heard from him for a few days and I’m starting to feel better and am looking forward, instead of backwards.



There was a podcast I listened to, that related to the story you told about your father. There was an older women, and her daughter was told that her mother’s cancer had taken a turn for the worst and she had less than a year to live. The family decided not to tell her and let her think she would get better. They threw a party and family members came from all over to say their goodbyes. She was told that the party was for another family member. More than five years later, she was still alive. So maybe sometimes positive thinking works.

Thanks again.
B53

[Enabler]

B53,

Are you starting to believe that you have the skills and experience to "fix" him? Or at the very least the ability to learn those skills? I would caution you on this.

There is a stark difference between supporting someone on their journey and being an active member of their mental health team. Kinda the difference between listening about how someone feels after chemo... and deciding what chemo concoction to try. Yes there are skills you can and will need to learn but that isn't necessarily oncology. Being able to genuinely empathise with him is a start, and that has less to do with being able to determine the outcome and more to do with being able to be an understanding ear.

NL

[B53]

NL
This was the way I was feeling before we broke up. I don’t think I can fix him. He will never be truly fixed. No matter what I or anyone else does, he will still have BP.

Yes, I do believe I can learn skills. At school we have to take continuous education courses. There is a program that is popular, called Mariposa. It’s a form of inductive discipline. It centers on empathy. You put words to feelings. It de-escalates conflicts between children. It does work in most situations, but I felt it was sometimes over used at school. Some kids, I think you just need to say, cut the PLEASE READ, not actually in those words.

It plays into my fascination of human behavior. The problem is, that I’m involved and I would have to keep my emotions in check, which might be impossible to do, because it is aimed at me. The guy I dated before him was a narcissist, though at the time I didn’t know there was a name for his behavior. When someone told me that he sounded like a narcissist, I looked it up. He could of been a poster child. It also described my mother. I figured out relatively early on, that his actions and words didn’t match. Before I ran, I played with his head a bit, he was so predictable. Both, funny and sad at the same time. Narcissists deserve to be messed with and NC drives them crazy. BP is different, they are not trying to hurt others, they are just trying to find a way to alleviate their pain, we are just collateral damage. That is what makes this so difficult for me, if he was manipulating me for his gain, it would be easy to throw is butt to the curb. Underneath it all, he is a kind person. He is the type, who stops to help people on the side of the road, gives money to the homeless. He gave his diabetic brother a kidney. He did a lot to make my life better and for that I will always be grateful.

Once again, thanks. I hope things are going well for you!
B53

[B53]

I see you can’t use swear words.

[Cromwell]

Hi B53

Some kids, I think you just need to say, cut the PLEASE READ, not actually in those words.

The "PLEASE READ" link goes to 404 error page not found. Not sure what to make of it. Probably a bug or glitch or some sort.

BP is different, they are not trying to hurt others, they are just trying to find a way to alleviate their pain, we are just collateral damage. That is what makes this so difficult for me, if he was manipulating me for his gain, it would be easy to throw is butt to the curb.


to borrow one of Carl Jungs words, "hintergedanken" (hopefully slips through the automated swear word filter   or 'hidden motive'

the whole point is, when it comes to identifying manipulation - if it is hidden, it is hidden. From the person themselves, to the person it is directed towards.

Therefore, I have no way of knowing if my ex with BPD was manipulating me, or even via versa. If it is hidden, thats kinda the whole point?

So in terms of it being a reason of difficulty in detaching I feel I had to put it to one side.

[Enabler]

the whole point is, when it comes to identifying manipulation - if it is hidden, it is hidden. From the person themselves, to the person it is directed towards.

Therefore, I have no way of knowing if my ex with BPD was manipulating me, or even via versa. If it is hidden, thats kinda the whole point?

My W and her OM like to use the word obfuscate 'make obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.'   It might be more appropriate than the work lie since it's not just a case of telling an untruth, it's an active attempt to cover and prevent a truth from being found. For me, being able to see through my W's years of 'obfuscation' was the way for me to realise and thus identify her manipulative behaviour. It may well have been cognitively hidden from her (or not), but it certainly was hidden from me since there was an active process by which truth was concealed.

[Cromwell]

some people are drawn to puzzles, enigmas, mystique - attractive qualities seeked out in a partner.

The truth is something I found to be a fools errand, but even if it was delivered to me, and my ex, and the chaos it creates (shame summoning = more problems?), "yes Cromwell, I did do this, but it was the BPD" or "yes but you made me do it because you did x,y,z)

and how can argue against that "truth" 

its possible to get to the stage of no longer important, dont need to know, dont want to know.

2.5 years apart have no doubt helped, but not time itself - a lot has happened, life does not stand still because a relationship ends.

B53 bomber style hit already "time conscious" thats a real payload to drop. people dont talk about it.

commonly accepted facts: time is finite not infinite

the variables involved at figuring out the truth are: infinite

[B53]

Cromwell, NL

Your points are valid.

My truth is, that I don't think he will ever be able to stop being triggered, over feeling slighted by some unconscious behavior, that I may, or may not do. I'm not going to say that he will never change, because I have eaten that never word, too many times. But I will say, close to never.

Take me out of the picture and let me play devil’s advocate, though I will use myself as an example. Who isn't manipulative, that's not just a BP trait, it's a human trait. We want what we want and most people will find a way to manipulate the situation to get it. It is just that some people do it in a blatant, hurtful way and others do it covertly. If it causes someone harm, that
is a different story. You could say, that him begging me to come back, could look like manipulation, because it plays on my heartstrings, but it’s only manipulation if he gets me to do something I don’t want to do, the other is free will. I would say that I am a rather skilled manipulator. Like flirting my way out of a speeding ticket, in my younger days. Being all comfy on the couch and saying in a pouty way, "I need to go pick up a prescription at the CVS. I reeeeally don't want to get up and go." 80 percent of the time, my SO will do it for me. When my kids were young, I would tell them, “lets see how long it takes you to run around the house, I will time you.” Then I would challenge them to beat their record. Beating their record becomes their only goal. It tires them out and they fall asleep faster at bed time. Relatively harmless, but manipulative, none the less.


My next point is, that most people on this site, when they talk about their BPD's, recovery is never on the table and there is never a circumstance, that makes it worth giving them another chance. Now, I know the people here are mentally beaten up and traumatized and a shell of their former self. They have trouble letting go, because the BP in their life, has such control over them, it’s hard to break away (not a judgment, an observation). Many people stay with their abuser for many reasons. I stayed with my abusive ex-husband as long as I did, because I couldn’t support my three kids. I ended up getting five, part -time jobs, but it was worth it. We feel their pain and we want to help, like others did for us. Pay it forward. But here’s the thing; no one ever encourages them, to try to get their BP to acknowledge that they need help, get into therapy and give it time to see if things get better. Basically because most of their stories are horrendous and it is futile and ending it, is probably for the best. But isn't that painting all BP's black. Throwing them in one big BP pile. The truth is a small group actually do get better, as the podcast, From Borderline to Beautiful, proves. You may get this kind of advice on another forum, but this forum is for detaching and the only advice is to run, save yourself and NC. Is it possible to be on this forum and have no other option? Not all BP's are at the same level and meet the same criteria. Someone who meets nine, isn’t same as some one who meets five. There is high functioning and low functioning and in between. Maybe the BPD’s with less destructive traits, could be put in a different category and different advice could be given to their distraught partner. I don't think I have said too many negative things about my ex, here, something that I have not read about anywhere else. If I say that my ex doesn't do that, then I’m told I'm in denial and if I want to participate in his recovery, then I am codependent and it may be very well true, that I am both of theses, but could there be any room here for another option? Does it have to be, one size fits all?

I don’t know, maybe this thought would make this forum ineffective.

Be kind, don’t beat me up too much, though I want to know your thoughts.

B53

PS, this is my Christmas advice, I give myself. The years I am in a relationship I would give my SO a nice gift. The years without a SO, can be sad, no partner, no gift. So on these years. I take the money that I would have spent on them and buy myself a nice gift. Best part is, that I always get the gift I want. Point is, be good to yourself!

[Cromwell]

this forum is for detaching and the only advice is to run, save yourself and NC. Is it possible to be on this forum and have no other option?

But here’s the thing; no one ever encourages them, to try to get their BP to acknowledge that they need help, get into therapy and give it time to see if things get better. Basically because most of their stories are horrendous and it is futile and ending it, is probably for the best. But isn't that painting all BP's black. Throwing them in one big BP pile. The truth is a small group actually do get better, as the podcast, From Borderline to Beautiful, proves.

Hey B53,

my thoughts are that I can see how you might be feeling this way and I have seen some members say go no contact - but id dispute that it is mainstream advice, certainly not "everyone" and no other option. There some experienced members here and my belief is that they recommend to try and keep some contact. It does depend though, my situation I was told it was better not to.

Then eventually, as no one can control fate and luck - I met her by chance and we ended up having 3 weeks of texting and it brought a lot of unexpected healing and closure, so my thoughts are that it helped and im glad I got that opportunity, at least a few other members I know have experienced and reported similar. 

my thoughts are the longer I have been here, the sheer number of different relationship with BPD perspectives ive heard, the more balanced my view became. We also have biases to watch out for, even I will have my own as a result of the experience. Its easy to actually safeguard others from them, by simply not telling others what to do - I wont tell you more than "do what you want B53"

PS, this is my Christmas advice, I give myself.  I take the money that I would have spent on them and buy myself a nice gift. Best part is, that I always get the gift I want.

ive saved a lot by stopping to buy gifts, but its not the £ it is the regret, and who wants to feel the person to regret giving a gift? its awful.

the last 2.5 years ive bought so much for myself and regret none of it.

[B53]

Cromwell,

Thanks for your response. Sometimes I feel, like the BP reactions I read about, seem so similar even though their story is different. I can relate to their pain, but not always to their experiences. I feel like I am in a different category that doesn't fit here. I think it could be the generation gap. Even thought I lived during the free love time, of the 70’s, it was very different. I was with my ex for almost six months before we slept together. I don’t think there would have been as much recycling back then and it is not something I think I would tolerate, even now. But it didn’t happen, so I don’t know for sure.

I had a really good weekend. I had been going back and forth about whether or not to put Christmas lights outside. I am not going to be here, no one is coming to visit and I was in the dumps and didn’t care about the holiday. Then I thought that I have put up lights every year I have lived here and my house always looks pretty at Christmas. I told myself that I need to embrace the things I love, not sadness. Yesterday, during the day, my thoughts focused on my back and forth struggles I write about here. I know my bad experiences were real, but were my good experiences real?  I say yes to both. I say he didn’t manipulate me, any more than I did him and never once did I ever catch him in even the smallest white lie. My conclusion was, why am I wasting my time trying to figure this out. I made my decision and I need to be to confident, that it was the right one. The past is over and the future hasn’t happened. I have now and it’s up to me as to how I want to spend that time. So I forced myself to put up the lights and decorated my house. It felt good to be productive. That evening while sitting on the couch with the TV on in the background, surfing the internet, it felt like all the heaviness just lifted. I felt like my old self. I was actually hungry for the first time in a month and a half. My high blood pressure is close to or in the normal range.Today, I took my three mile walk, cleaned my whole downstairs and front porch, vacuumed out my car and took a table apart that my daughter wants me to bring, when I come to visit and I loaded it in my car. It feels so good to be back! So if he emails me, begs me to come back, I will deal with it when it happens. I don’t know what I’ll do and until then I don’t have to have an answer, to something that hasn’t happened. I need to be strong enough to make the correct decision, not one based on emotions. I give you and the others here credit, for helping me sort through it all.

When I said that I give myself a present when I don’t have an SO, there isn’t a person or face attached, so I don’t feel regret.  I forget that not everyone has to budget, so they can treat themselves whenever they want. I’m glad that you treat yourself well!

B53

[Enabler]

But here’s the thing; no one ever encourages them, to try to get their BP to acknowledge that they need help, get into therapy and give it time to see if things get better.

I think I did, just maybe not in the way you were considering it. I don't think healing can occur whilst you are together, because you are part of the historic system he needs to heal from, and I don't think you can be together in the different way that might allow him to decouple and recouple with you in the way he needs to.

It maybe that other more experienced members realise the probability of there being a happy ending is low, and/or the investment by you may not lead to any certain outcome vs going your own way.

I have by my own admittance been too hopeful for too long but then I see differences in your situation than my own... but all relationships are different even if there is commonality.

NL

[B53]

Thanks NL,
You did mention trying to be friends. I know that wouldn’t work because it would be too emotional and too easy to slip back into the old routine. Right now, we are both where we should be. I don’t write off giving it another try, but I realize that life could be better with someone who can love freely and life isn’t such a struggle. I am an introvert and love my alone time, but when it is not my choice, I feel trapped. I think if we were in the old normal, I might not even be looking back. Friday I am leaving to go to visit my daughter, her husband and grandchildren. I loved raising my children, but being a grandparent is the best. Their parent’s deal with the ups and downs and I get the fun and love. I’m looking forward to it.

You’re in the better position, daughter’s love their dads, but they are tough on their moms. My daughter still has no problem telling me if she doesn’t like what I’ m wearing or what I’m doing. My friends daughters are the same. It’s so true, when they say, they grow up fast.

Hope your day I’s going well.
B53

[Cromwell]

Hi B53

sounds like a very relaxing chill out time. good to hear. Things have been busy here and id use that as an excuse to what most folk (except for my ex) cant help but comment on "chaos", but my home, my workspace has always surface appeared as so (I know where every thing is and have proven it when ive had to).

I have a sort of budget since the past 2 months and it has worked in the sense ive stuck to it, but i manage somehow by not having one too, it is automatic and much of my life is intuitive. I do have helpers though, but thats intuitive too, I got a phone call this morning from a friend to tell me if I was awake that my exam starts in half an hour. I wasnt, but somehow I knew circumstances would lead me to doing it.

and in terms of BPD linkage, my ex just seamlessly became part of the environ including perhaps from what ive came to read now and if I accept the theory - unhealthily enmeshed. To be accurate, I go with this but the 'truth' is evasive and its also something I feel cant even be expressed in words as much as feelings, not to the full complexity that they are. attempts to get close, attempts from the other side to "relate" to "similarity" but theres still a vast gulf. yet somehow we manage all to help one another, we try, maybe thats what its about by itself - I think it is and I believe it made/makes a positive difference in the here and now. At least Ive found a lot of joy and sense of healing since you have joined here and had this opportunity to share experience to thank you for immeasurably.

[Enabler]

B53,

You know when you see lovers holding hands and spinning around in circles (normally on a lawn in films), counterbalancing each other back and forth, back and forth. This seems like how this thread has gone. As you go one way I give the contrarian opinion, as you go the other way I counteract you and pull you back. I'm not sure you're in a better position than you were at the beginning and maybe I have that effect on people. I'm a natural contrarian albeit in an attempt to find some sort of middle ground since I find "falsehood" in black or white. I started the thread trying to pull you back to a position where making a definitive choice was not a now thing, I've counteracted your argument that you should run for the hills and never look back with reasoning that you could support you Ex rather than feel the need for no contact... then when you discussed being part of his recovery program I pulled you back away from that suggesting it might not be helpful for you to be that close whilst attempting to benefit him.

I feel there's a state to be in now, which doesn't require absolutes. Your time pressures say there are. You're more seasoned  than I, but I'm not going to let age determine my perception of your wisdom. There's something I mutter to myself when doing DIY... "Measure twice, cut once" ... the same can be said for relationships... take the time to measure, take the time to recover and take stock without the compunction for the next move... then cut well.

If I'm not helping you centre then I'm not helping you.

NL

[B53]

NL,

 You have been extremely helpful. I think you gave me just what I needed. I needed the back and force to come to that middle ground. I thought that my last post expressed that I have finally reached that place, but maybe it didn’t read that way. 


I don’t know how to cut and paste from what I write on posts, so Ill do it on my computer.

 My last post-  Yesterday, during the day, my thoughts focused on my back and forth struggles I write about here. I know my bad experiences were real, but were my good experiences real?

My conclusion was, why am I wasting my time trying to figure this out. I made my decision and I need to be to confident, that it was the right one. The past is over and the future hasn’t happened. I have now and it’s up to me as to how I want to spend that time.

That evening while sitting on the couch with the TV on in the background, surfing the internet, it felt like all the heaviness just lifted. I felt like my old self.

It feels so good to be back! So if he emails me, begs me to come back, I will deal with it when it happens. I don’t know what I’ll do and until then, I don’t have to have an answer to something that hasn’t happened. I need to be strong enough to make the correct decision, not one based on emotions. I give you and the others here credit, for helping me sort through it all.

YOU DID WELL, THANKS!
B53

[B53]

Cromwell,

Thanks! I’m glad my pain was able to bring you Joy (only kidding). There was a time, not to long ago, when reading and responding to this post was the only thing that helped get me through a day. You and others were empathic, while still challenging my thoughts and keeping me in touch with reality. Something my head knew all along, but my broken heart wasn’t ready to acknowledge. It is difficult answering you, because I fear that my post is coming to an end. I think that I have just about expressed all the feelings I have felt.  As usual, I will use one the many metaphorical proverbs, that I love so much; You can’t beat a dead horse.  If you have anything else that you feel should be brought up, please do, because I would love to continue our “chat”.

I love Berne Brown, unlike others with celebrity status (Dr. Phil), she is humble and not afraid to admit that she stills struggles with being human. Someone has put one of her Ted Talks at the top of this forum. I feel it’s worth the watch and if you like it, she has other great stuff out there. So I will end with two of her quotes, because I couldn’t decide which one to pick.
 
“Owning our story can be hard but not nearly as difficult as spending our lives running from it. Embracing our vulnerabilities is risky but not nearly as dangerous as giving up on love and belonging and joy—the experiences that make us the most vulnerable. Only when we are brave enough to explore the darkness will we discover the infinite power of our light.” – Brené Brown

 “Our job is not to deny the story, but to defy the ending—to rise strong, recognize our story, and rumble with the truth until we get to a place where we think, Yes. This is what happened. And I will choose how the story ends.” – Brené Brown

B53

I did send you a private email, a while back and don't know if you saw it or it got lost in your box. It was about your numerology question. I realized after I sent it, that you wanted my thoughts not more personal info., though I think some thoughts were included, can’t remember.  If you want to discuss that more, great, and if not, that’s good too.

[Cromwell]

Thanks B53 its nice to hear, hows it going?

I feel when it comes to talking it depends what frame of mind, what a source of anxiety I use to have, still do a little is to avoid a situation where somehow something is said that does more harm than good. So to hear feedback that its made a positive difference, yes, I feel joy from it and at the same time I have my understanding of the pain, in the sense ive gone through my own, still do sometimes.

I like what new-life has to say about being a contrarian, I noticed also you mentioned playing devils advocate. Its risky but seems all three of us know whats going on, point out where the poles are to find the equator sort of charting.

another beneficial thing I found to tell a story is learn how to rest, stress management, sleep, nutrition (you mentioned this as an improvement and blood pressure) i was wondering where the metaphor came from, is B53 a bit fatigued at the moment? or is it just me projecting? or both. I could do with a break but this is the advantage of group support, there is a lot of us, sometimes it has been the most innocuous of things ive said in a message and it has been pointed out, made me then become aware, valuable. I think it stands to reason the more posting, sharing, the higher the chance of getting these gems.

generally though, since day one the pain has been dampened by the "chats" the companionship, to tie in with how I feel about those quotes from Berne, both excellent I can see how it was hard to choose just one.

numerology. maybe if you wish there is one thing id like to mention, somehow I have more attention and memory for numbers than names. not so great now, but might be my advantage in the dystopian future when we are "citizen 29550-3 step forward" type thing

I should have warned you in advance, part of chats with me is the ability to put up with poor jokes.

Its nice to hear some proverbs too, here in the UK it is "flogging a dead horse" and ive been told at times to "stop" which didnt help much, wild horses couldnt stop me flogging a dead horse  

B53, I will stop myself there, im a chatter-box when you want/need feel like it, so message me or post anytime. Take care and thanks. Crom