Terrible time with Live in GF...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Brighter...acknowledging here must be a positive step here I think and hope.

No judgements from me about repetition. I too, altho this is my first deep relationship with a BP...see many patterns in my choices via others I get involved with.  The scary thing is that while I have known for a long time my patterns...like you, the savior, the hero...the only one who can be this for her etc...I still find myself in those things with  what are seemingly very different females...what I thought to first to be the case "this person is very different" then turned back into the same old same old...in varying degrees of course. And then onto this actual BP and it fit like a hand in a glove...

all those seemingly different characters always stemming from the same source...which is my pattern and problem of course. That's what I need to work on more. All of that is on me...and even with self knowledge of my patters, it was like a unconsciously saw behind the facade to the real thing as was driven by that...

[cash05458]

Brighter...acknowledging here must be a positive step here I think and hope.

No judgements from me about repetition. I too, altho this is my first deep relationship with a BP...see many patterns in my choices via others I get involved with.  The scary thing is that while I have known for a long time my patterns...like you, the savior, the hero...the only one who can be this for her etc...I still find myself in those things with  what are seemingly very different females...what I thought to first to be the case "this person is very different" then turned back into the same old same old...in varying degrees of course. And then onto this actual BP and it fit like a hand in a glove...

all those seemingly different characters always stemming from the same source...which is my pattern and problem of course. That's what I need to work on more. All of that is on me...and even with self knowledge of my patters, it was like a unconsciously saw behind the facade to the real thing as was driven by that...

[cash05458]

I guess I have a question for all who read and have experience...do they actually have real conscience about what they do to us? I mean, for instance...mine is now emotionally dependent on another and has practically destroyed me these last three weeks with not only cruelty, but no seeming care in the world or any concern...do they later feel actual guilt about that? Or is it merely, upon say trying to return that they are merely trying to "save" themselves or actually feel real sorrow and shame at their behaviors towards you...

Is the guilt even there? Or later do they feel actual guilt as to how they treated the other even if it's done and gone fore ever? Is the guilt real or is it just the continuation of self serving behavior?

I would like to hear what folks with experience more than I think about that if they might be so kind... 

[brighter future]

Cash,

I think it depends on the severity of their BP disorder and if there is a lot of comorbidity.

My BPD ex-wife also has strong Narc traits. This is an awful combination, and she shows no remorse for anything. She manipulates everyone, including our own child. She's also a habitual liar, and I think she actually believes the lies that come out of her own mouth. The only people that stay in her life for any length of time is her immediate family. I believe she's dated 4-5 men since our divorce, and all of them have left her. She has frequent issues with immediate family and has periods of time where they don't speak for whatever reason. When we had the forensic evaluation by the psychologist, he described my ex-wife in his report and testimony as "a very difficult individual to get along with that has great difficulty in relationships with other people."

In the case of my uBPD ex-g/f, she showed remorse a good part of the time for her behavior and actions and how they affected others. She even admitted to me that "most of the problems in my life are self-inflicted." One time she even said, "My kids are the way they are because of me. I did this to them." About a year before our breakup, she said "I worry one day I'm going to do something terribly wrong in this relationship and hurt you. Then I will completely shut down, and you won't be able to bring me back."  It's like she was predicting the future because that's what ended up happening. In all reality, she knows that she ultimately does these things and was warning me. I didn't listen at the time  because I thought all of the love and care that I gave her would prevent that from happening.

[cash05458]

Brighter, with mine she gave no such "warnings"...certainly not verbal and clear...altho now that I look back at the rage attacks adn her cruelty therein, I prolly should have seen what she was finally capable of...I just put it down to anger tho I knew something was very wrong with her extreme anger in the rage attacks...taht she has been married 5 times as well was obviously a red flag...at one point she couldn't actually remember exactly how many times she had been married...finally figured it out after a few days..."yes, it wasn't 4 times, it was 5"...that should have said so much to me...frankly tho, I never expected anything like this from her in my worst nightmares...

[crushedagain]

Mine had quiet BPD and was tormented by feelings of shame and guilt. She had her share of meltdowns, but it was not directed at me per se. It was more like crying fits where I had to comfort her, and then I'd find out that she was crying because she thought she was a bad person, or that she was worried I was going to leave her, or whatever insecurity it was at the moment.

During these times of sadness and neediness, she was glued to me. She had to go everywhere I went, she was like my shadow. She always wanted to be touching me, liked to sit in the middle of my truck seat rather than in the passenger seat even. She was hypersensitive. If she cooked me a meal and I asked for a condiment she would chastise herself and say "I ALWAYS FORGET SOMETHING!" I would say, "no, sweetie, it's wonderful, thank you so much," but it didn't matter.

I knew something was seriously wrong with her when we'd get into a minor disagreement and she would open hand slap herself across the face and scream "you idiot!" to herself. It was so sad. I would grab her and say "don't ever do that to yourself again, I love you. You are wonderful." It was heartbreaking. She used to pick sores onto her hands at times, and pull her hair out in places. She had gorgeous hair and skin, too. She was a beautiful gal who I really loved.

Then she'd go cold on me at other times and I could feel the chill. She didn't want to hold hands, eat together, anything. This, in hindsight, was the engulfment syndrome kicking in. At the time I had no idea what was going on, because literally nothing had changed in the relationship. I was completely clueless. At these times she had a take it or leave it attitude where she wasn't worried about losing me, because she had one foot out the door. She was almost trying to sabotage the relationship. She may make a snide comment to me here or there, but that was it. Nothing terrible, just being difficult and bitchy. It's a trip when I look back on it.

[Gemsforeyes]

I agree with BF, it likely does depend on the extent of co-morbidity.  Both my exH and my exBF had huge doses of Narc characteristics... exH, way more Narc than BPD (in hindsight, but confirmed by our former MC).

In my opinion, With those Narc traits, any remorse they may feel would have everything to do with what THEY’VE now got to do for themselves... NOT how anything has impacted or hurt you.  At all.  Narcissists feel no empathy, where pwBPD generally do.

And where things can get the most twisted is when a co-morbid attempts to return and you’ve finally found the strength to refuse.  If, big IF...your refusal actually comes as a shock to them... all of their self-serving, poor me “tools” I’ve talked about before come out and you COULD end up apologizing for everything cruel that THEY’VE done.  To you. 

Doesn’t mean you need to let them back in... but go ahead and apologize if that stops the RAGE.  This can work... “I’m truly sorry things didn’t work out for us.  I have issues I need to work on FOREVER, and I wish you the best.”  But the real fact is, you don’t owe this person a second to “explain” their cruelty.  Not one second.

You’ve got to pay close attention.  When a “partner” has this deeply hurt you, this deeply betrayed you, this deeply violated everything they KNEW about you... well sometimes you’ve got to realize you may not want to know this person any longer.  I vividly recall the day I received that feeling.  I hold tightly to it.

Warmly,
Gems

[cash05458]

Gem, I believe you are right about Narc. traits with my now ex...well, not that you are right about her, but I see that that is the case..otherwise, I can't understand what is going on and has gone on...the acts have been and are so entirely cruel...and I have explained to her what they have done to me...to no avail, she charges on...it is so entirely blatant and obvious. No matter what effects, she will do what she is now doing. As it's now just over three weeks of this, some of the "shock" is wearing off...not all of it of course...but some...I am not so stunned now as over this time...it started to clear a few days ago...still totally painful and overwhelming but not so "oh my god this can't be happening"...it's happened and happening. I need to take aboard that THIS is who she really is.I think I am living in my picture from before all of this. I want to stop that.

But you are right, I need to fully see what this person has done as it's so extreme and make sure if she should ever try to return that I will not listen. I need this person out of my life. I no longer see her the same as I did...I can't separate her from these acts. I didn't see her that way before. I now do. This IS who she is.
Actually, at this point, I can't see her returning anyhow...or if she does, it won't be a for a long time. I think I am just another in her long line of 5 husbands...and I have no idea what really occurred at the end with those...but would imagine likewise to this. Play the game for a set number of years...find something new then destroy the old and move to the new one and over evaluate and lovebomb the new one and repeat.

I have such a think head, am in so much pain that it makes it hard to FULLY get that in there...but I am working on it and hopefully getting there. This place, and you, have helped so much.  I really deeply appreciate everyone's responses... 

[once removed]

when my ex and i broke up, i wanted her back. i hung on for a few months.

the final straw, really, was when she stole from me. it turns out she had my debit card that i thought was missing. she used it for around 60 dollars. i despise thieves; she knew that.

when that happened, i cried like a baby.

part of it was just the pain. part of it was that i knew there was no turning back.

there are no loyalties in a divorce. one or both sides often do things that hurt the other.

is it the real them, vs the them youve been seeing all of that time? its probably more complicated than that.

was my ex a person that was capable of stealing from me, all of that time? she was. i had to grapple with that. she was also the lovely person id spent three years with, capable of some of the most tender of human kindnesses id ever seen.

remorse? i dont know. im sure she had some feelings of shame. im sure she also justified what she did. not unlike really, the way i thought during, and after the relationship.

in order to navigate this, you have to let go of both the good and the bad parts of your partner.

[cash05458]

Once, thank you...I am not sure at this moment how to let both the good and bad parts go? Perhaps its so fresh...I don't know...and I am curious as to what you mean  doing that will help navigate this...could you explain a bit more what you mean please?

[once removed]

what i mean is that i did so much focusing on either the good or the bad, in spite of myself.

in trying to get over her, id focus on the bad. the wounded part of me, and the part of me that wanted to be with her, would remember the good.

our exes were somewhere in the middle of the person who was so special, so unique, so wonderful, and so hateful, so toxic, such a pain in the ass. my ex was the person who stole from me. she was also the person who did so many wonderful things for so many people. she was the most thoughtful gift giver ive ever met.

and in letting go of that, i had to accept that our relationship was fundamentally broken. that there were parts of her i could not accept, and there were parts of me she could not accept. at the same time, there were parts of her id love to find in another partner. not to find her in someone else. but that certain qualities about her that were great, that simultaneously existed with qualities i couldnt accept, were findable in someone else.

a lot of what im speaking to is the latter stages of detaching. youll get there.

more relevant to you, is the idea that someone you have shared your life with and been so close to could do such hurtful things. and im here to tell you that thats very possible, regardless of psychopathology or traits of mental illness. divorce is often very ugly. the conflict isnt over, its manifesting, and it feels very justified.

getting back together would mean coming to terms with that, and how, and whether, its resolvable. letting go would mean coming to terms of the magnitude of it all, understanding that the relationship is fundamentally broken, and committing to grieving it.

[cash05458]

Thank you Once,

Yes, I am not yet detached...don't know if you read my original posts about what has actually occurred...but I won't go back over the details and bore everyone...I do know in my head that the things she has done have made this not fixable...but then I still long...which is confusing to me...I guess more than anything, that I have been so easily replaced...which makes me feel worthless...and that the man is simply thru facebook and on phone/cam and they have never met...even more so...she openly has told me she loves him and not me...and they met less than a month ago online...she has also openly told me she doesnt want to fix this...I dont know what else I need to hear at that point...so why still so upset and in so much pain like this?

Like yours and the theft, I know there is no way I would ever look at us again in same way no matter if we did ...it's not me being a hard a++...its more that I just know it can never be repaired...

[once removed]

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