Update on divorce, etc.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Or even that you would pay for "completion" of a program or something like that. 

Everyone has the right idea...minimize "free cash" that she does what she wants with.

Maximize paying for healthy services directly.

Perhaps another thing to consider.

I'm assuming she gets the house.  It would be cleaner if the house was sold and she was in charge of her own housing, but she could screw that up as well.

I wonder...

If she gets the house and if you are still on the hook for paying her cash, could it be put in there that you paying mortgage, taxes, insurance directly "counts". 

It's obvious you care about her well being and want her to have "the best chance".

Last:  In accordance with the idea of her getting the house and perhaps you paying directly, I wonder if instead of quit claiming to her, you give her a "life estate". 

Should she ever want to move or if she pre-deceases you, the property reverts to you by deed (not by will).

It's worth a shot.



Best,

FF

[formflier]

Or even that you would pay for "completion" of a program or something like that. 

Everyone has the right idea...minimize "free cash" that she does what she wants with.

Maximize paying for healthy services directly.

Perhaps another thing to consider.

I'm assuming she gets the house.  It would be cleaner if the house was sold and she was in charge of her own housing, but she could screw that up as well.

I wonder...

If she gets the house and if you are still on the hook for paying her cash, could it be put in there that you paying mortgage, taxes, insurance directly "counts". 

It's obvious you care about her well being and want her to have "the best chance".

Last:  In accordance with the idea of her getting the house and perhaps you paying directly, I wonder if instead of quit claiming to her, you give her a "life estate". 

Should she ever want to move or if she pre-deceases you, the property reverts to you by deed (not by will).

It's worth a shot.



Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Or even that you would pay for "completion" of a program or something like that. 

Everyone has the right idea...minimize "free cash" that she does what she wants with.

Maximize paying for healthy services directly.

Perhaps another thing to consider.

I'm assuming she gets the house.  It would be cleaner if the house was sold and she was in charge of her own housing, but she could screw that up as well.

I wonder...

If she gets the house and if you are still on the hook for paying her cash, could it be put in there that you paying mortgage, taxes, insurance directly "counts". 

It's obvious you care about her well being and want her to have "the best chance".

Last:  In accordance with the idea of her getting the house and perhaps you paying directly, I wonder if instead of quit claiming to her, you give her a "life estate". 

Should she ever want to move or if she pre-deceases you, the property reverts to you by deed (not by will).

It's worth a shot.



Best,

FF

I like the idea of switching my thinking around. If I get more in this settlement or judgment, it is more money for me to decide what to do with. It doesn't preclude me from helping her. It just gives me control over that. Not sure if that's exactly what you were suggesting in a previous post, but I had not really thought about it that way.

On the house, no, she does not get it. If this goes to court, it will be sold, probably sooner than she wants. She has no income and could not get a mortgage for the house. There is also a considerable amount of equity in the house (somewhere north of $200k). This was all part of what was discussed at mediation. We made an offer to give her all of the equity in return for a much shorter and less generous alimony payment. She did not want that. I don't think she wants to move right now, and I am willing to keep her in the house for some period of time, maybe a year. We also proposed that, with the mortgage payments and any increase in equity coming back to me when it does sell. She was more interested in that, but still insisted on alimony in futuro, which is a non-starter for me. According to my L, that is absolutely my worst possible day in court and is just not going to happen. So if she insists on that, we'll just go to trial.

The other factor, which I think I've mentioned but who knows how long ago, is that stbx has an expensive chronic medical condition. She needs health insurance. She is legitimately worried about paying for her health care needs. It's all currently covered by my employer-based insurance. My wonderful state did not expand Medicaid, so she won't qualify for that. And because she has no income, she doesn't qualify for any subsidies on the health care exchange. And because of the Trump tax changes, alimony no longer counts as income. So there is a real worry about how to pay for insurance that will cover her very expensive medical needs. (She gets treatment once a month, and our insurance is billed ~$12,000/month, every month.) 

[formflier]

I like the idea of switching my thinking around. If I get more in this settlement or judgment, it is more money for me to decide what to do with. It doesn't preclude me from helping her. It just gives me control over that. Not sure if that's exactly what you were suggesting in a previous post, but I had not really thought about it that way.
 

You got the basic gist of my idea. 

There will be some amount of money/value that the courts or a settlement will "direct" towards her.  Of that part that is "mandatory", you want to "control" as much of that as possible.  So..instead of giving her $1k per month cash payment that she can blow on silly things at her whim...if you can have the settlement say $1k per month paid towards her house or health insurance or (you get the picture)..so she doesn't fritter it away.

I'm a real estate guy and over the years it's been very good to me.  So that is where the "life estate" idea comes from.

She gets to live there and when that is over or if she moves and gives up the right to live there, you are back in control of the house and can sell it, and hopefully pocket much more equity that has built up.

So..might want to compare the alimony that you believe you will be "stuck with" to the monthly mortgage payment on the house.  If that is close...this idea might be worth pursuing. 

Granted...something like this is not a clean break...so...   look at it from that angle as well.

Back to the original point.  Minimize the "mandatory part" and that maximizes the amount of income and value that you can choose to use to help her..or not.

Hey...over to you on your comfort level to discuss figures here, but if you were offering her $200k to "go away" (the equity in the house), it seems to me she is set to get  substantial amount out of this, even from a judge.  Am I correct about this?

Again..over to you how much in the weeds you want to go.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

How much would health insurance cost her independently? How can that be packaged with the alimony and house equity into something that works for her?

What actions has she taken to get Social Security Disability and Medicare/Medicaid? Can part of your settlement proposal include X dollars for a lawyer to assist her with disability filings?

Yes, this is definitely about changing your perspective. You are a kind person and want to help provide a plan and path for her to achieve health and independence in X years, with some assurance that she will follow the path -- NOT that you will hand over funds expecting her to use those funds wisely (how has that worked in the past?).

Is there a possibility that you will offer reasonable support (health insurance in the interim prior to obtaining disability, lawyer fees to obtain disability, DBT program fees to improve mental and emotional functionality) but that she will fail to avail herself of that support? Yes. But if you hand over alimony and cash equity with no plan or path, she'll be in even worse shape 6-7 years down the road having had no incentive to improve.

[ForeverDad]

And be careful to set limits (including expiration date) to any offer.  Her natural inclination will be to delay hoping for more and more concessions.  Trials are expensive and so if she delays that much then cancel any prior offers since they would have included incentives to avoid trial.

Remember, this is to be handled similar to undoing a business merger... emotions are to be set aside.

[formflier]

I somehow assumed she was on SSDI or some kind of disability?  Is this the case?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I somehow assumed she was on SSDI or some kind of disability?  Is this the case?

Best,

FF

No, she's not, and likely would not qualify for it. Her medical situation is complicated. The quick version is that she was sick for a couple of years about 10 years ago. After seeing every doctor around, she was eventually diagnosed with a rare kind of cancer and started the treatment she is still on. It helped with all of the symptoms and she lives a more or less normal life (physically). There has never been any pathology to confirm it was/is cancer, and they have never found a tumor. We have seen experts across the country--some are willing to say it is cancer, others are not. Whatever it is, the monthly treatment does help, and it is expensive. But I don't think there's any way she qualifies for SSDI. She claims that she wants to work, but doesn't think she can work full time. And she thinks that if she loses health insurance, she will be sick again, and won't be able to work at all. If this goes to trial, her health will probably be the biggest part of figuring this out.

The problem with her staying in the house for any period of time is that our current life is not sustainable. I work two jobs, deposit both paychecks into our joint account, and she spends every bit of it, or it is spent on the mortgage, her car, her bills, etc. I've lived off leftover money from an insurance payment and credit cards for a long time. I currently live rent-free and get a lot of free meals on campus. That's obviously not a viable long-term plan. I did that to try to get to the end of this. (She was surprised when the mediator informed her that I could have not given her anything and forced a temporary order that would have been a lot less generous than I've been.)

Anyway, for me, there is thinking about how to just survive the next however long, and then thinking about the longer-term future. In a lot of ways, a trial and a clean break will be easier for me. I can survive the next three months. But I think that's bad for her, and something that is bad for her is likely to be bad for me in terms of what she directs at me. There are firewalls I can put up, but it'd be worth it to me to figure out something that she can somewhat get on board with.

She did send me an email a little while ago that was mostly reasonable (and by "reasonable" I just mean not completely off the rails) and talked about her "goals" in this. She wants to stay in the house for now. She doesn't want to be forced out. She wants her car. She wants to be able to buy a (smaller) house for herself whenever she decides to move. She wants to get a part-time job and doesn't expect me to "fully" support her. She seems to still think I should provide support forever. I don't see any way to satisfy all of those "goals," but maybe there's some creative way to make some of it happen.

I don't really want to bet on it, but I do think she will get a full-time job at some point in the not-to-distant future and be successful in it. She is very good at what she does, and I think she will "feel" much better and more able when all of the divorce stuff is done.

[stolencrumbs]

How much would health insurance cost her independently? How can that be packaged with the alimony and house equity into something that works for her?

What actions has she taken to get Social Security Disability and Medicare/Medicaid? Can part of your settlement proposal include X dollars for a lawyer to assist her with disability filings?

Yes, this is definitely about changing your perspective. You are a kind person and want to help provide a plan and path for her to achieve health and independence in X years, with some assurance that she will follow the path -- NOT that you will hand over funds expecting her to use those funds wisely (how has that worked in the past?).

Is there a possibility that you will offer reasonable support (health insurance in the interim prior to obtaining disability, lawyer fees to obtain disability, DBT program fees to improve mental and emotional functionality) but that she will fail to avail herself of that support? Yes. But if you hand over alimony and cash equity with no plan or path, she'll be in even worse shape 6-7 years down the road having had no incentive to improve.

I don't know about insurance costs. COBRA, which she could do for 36 months, is about $1200/month. Premiums for private insurance would be less, but the out-of-pocket costs would be more. She will meet the out-of-pocket maximum every year, and private insurance plans I've seen have out-of-pocket maximums at $10-12k/year, which is about three times what our out-of-pocket maximum currently is. But I need to look more closely at the numbers on this.

For reasons I went over a bit in the previous post, I don't think she'd qualify for SSDI.

I think you're right about the perspective shift and trying to structure a proposal in a way that would actually help her. I don't think she'd take it, but that doesn't mean I can't put it on the table at some point.

[stolencrumbs]

Remember, this is to be handled similar to undoing a business merger... emotions are to be set aside.

Roger that.

[formflier]

Yeah as I read all that and hear you talking about a clean break...I think  the most likely outcome is "trial and done".

How many social security lawyers has she spoken with?  How many times has she applied for social security?  (and that was her choice.right?)

How many jobs has she applied for?

Ultimately it all comes down to her choice.

Note:  I'm on SSDI.  The average person passing me and perhaps some of my acquaintances might be surprised by this.  I was a bit surprised  when it was granted but I will tell you the SSDI rules are weird, I don't even begin to say I understand them. 

I've also "defended" the status one time since I was initially granted.  Basically they came and said "we don't think you are disabled anymore, so prove it again".

I was granted 100% Permanent and Total from the VA and was advised to investigate SSDI.  I showed my file to a social security lawyer and he said it was a "solid case", perhaps not a "slam dunk".  It went through and was approved first time.

Anyway...if one or two SSDI lawyers (there are ones out there that almost exclusively do this) look at it and say don't bother..then I probably wouldn't bother. 

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I find it very strange that a cancer diagnosis can not be confirmed.

You might need to subpoena medical records for depositions.

[I Am Redeemed]

I find it very strange that a cancer diagnosis can not be confirmed.

You might need to subpoena medical records for depositions.

My thoughts exactly. This has been going on for ten years?

[stolencrumbs]

My thoughts exactly. This has been going on for ten years?

Yeah, like I said, it's complicated. It will definitely be an issue at trial. Her diagnosis is for neuroendocrine cancer. The oncologist who diagnosed her is a bit of a maverick. He diagnosed her through process of elimination and by seeing if the treatment worked. He eliminated through testing everything he could, then started treatment, and her symptoms improved dramatically. He is convinced it is cancer. These tumors (if they are there) are very, very small--like tip of a needle small. So they're hard to find if they're there. They are also very slow-growing. And research suggests that the treatment halts their growth and shrinks them. So this Dr.'s theory is that she has cancer and the treatment is keeping it from advancing/growing.

The specialist we saw, who is like one of six people in the world who specializes in this, was not prepared to call it cancer. He had about a dozen other patients like stbx. They had all the symptoms, treatment was effective, but no tumors ever showed up on any scans (and these were experimental scans designed to detect these tumors). He believed there was "something" going on with these people, but he wasn't prepared to call it cancer. He kept her as a patient and we traveled to see him every year.

I guess more importantly for the divorce, none of the Dr.'s, whatever they call it, think that it renders her unable to work or is likely to shorten her life. They do all think she should continue this treatment.

I don't really know what to think. pwBPD are often heavy consumers of health care, and stbx is definitely that, across the board. And she definitely "liked" having the cancer diagnosis. If you don't give any details and just tell people you were diagnosed with cancer, you get a lot of sympathy. And it makes a handy excuse for not doing things. I was heavily involved in her health and Dr.'s visits and such. I do think there is something real going on, and there is something wrong. I don't know what it is and I don't know how "bad" it really is and how much it's badness is amplified by the BPDness that accompanies it.

[mart555]

My thoughts exactly. This has been going on for ten years?

Sounds like my ex wife's medical condition. Specialist after specialist that came up with undefined diagnostics, knee braces, finger splints, asthma puffers, medications for all sorts of stuff, would have to sleep 12 hours a day, couldn't do much around the house...    Now thanks to the miracle of separation, she no longer needs any of that stuff (or maybe some medication).  I brought up the term "Munchausen syndrome" during a family visit with the family doctor (alone. while updating her on my  divorce ordeal) and she said "that's definitely a possibility"...  I fell in the trap for 15+ years.  And the more distant I was, the "sicker" she got..   

[formflier]

Still...how many jobs has she applied for/attempted?

How many disability applications?

Disability lawyers consulted?

Hmmm...So, there is no objective test of any kind...whatsoever, that "shows" or "proves" this cancer exists?

What about the "symptoms"?  Are those objectively provable?  I get it that the cause might not be..but are the effects provable?

How many years now has she been doing this really expensive treatment?  Has the treatment been varied or any attempt made to "wean her off" during that time?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

In the long run, it might be worth a consultation (or two) at a facility such as M.D. Anderson or Sloan Kettering or one of the Mayo Clinics.

This needs to be resolved. It just doesn't sound "right."

If one of the premier cancer clinics in the world can't classify her as having cancer, perhaps there is an autoimmune condition at play -- who knows? Whatever it might be...you need to pin down what is going on before any commitment on your part to financially embroil yourself in undefined health issues.

How often did she use the health card when there was conflict in the relationship?

Munchausen's is most definitely a possibility...the ultimate Victim position.

(I have a friend who is wealthy and has supported his ex-wife for over 20 years because she has MS. She lives in his owned mansion in a country club community and will NEVER re-marry due to her overly generous alimony and housing arrangements. Their daughter is long gone to college. She goes to a local university medical center for interferon treatments every three weeks and maintains that she is unable to work. She hasn't worked since she moved in with him over 27 years ago.)

[I Am Redeemed]

What "treatment" is it, and how can the effectiveness of this treatment be measured when combined with alcohol and other medications...do I remember that your wife also has taken adderall?

[ForeverDad]

I work two jobs, deposit both paychecks into our joint account, and she spends every bit of it, or it is spent on the mortgage, her car, her bills, etc.

  Putting your paychecks into the joint account will of course get all the money spent.   Why not shift your paychecks to a personal account and then pay the bills from your account?  Then you dole out a reasonable but limited amount of spending money periodically into the joint account.  (Beware, if she has a credit card then she'll keep spending everything.  I hope your credit cards aren't joint accounts, they may be hard to close if she refuses to stop racking up charges.)

I did that, actually I was forced into that, by her own actions.  I had previously bought vehicles with funds from my retirement account.  Well, our marriage was crashing into the rocks and nearly over.  I bought a replacement vehicle and applied for a loan from my retirement again.  This time when I asked her to sign the required J&S disclaimer, that she recognized the loan impacted inheritances, she refused to sign.  Big reaction when I told the dealer that, of course.  So I went to my mortgage bank and got a loan there, at a much higher rate of course.  The bank's condition was that I start a checking account with them for automatic payment deductions.  So I decided to deposit my paychecks there rather than our joint account.  Oh did she rant and rage!  But I refused to retreat.  The marriage did implode a couple months later and we separated then divorced.  It would have been high conflict no matter how I tried to smooth over.  I look back and shifting to a personal account was for the best, the marriage was crashing anyway.

You feel she will start working after the divorce?  My 'feeling'?  She will then drag out the divorce as long as she can.  Based on past years, work is the last thing she wants to do.  And why should she, she gets to leech off you.

[mart555]

I look back and shifting to a personal account was for the best, the marriage was crashing anyway.

You feel she will start working after the divorce?  My 'feeling'?  She will then drag out the divorce as long as she can.  Based on past years, work is the last thing she wants to do.  And why should she, she gets to leech off you.

I confirm that the joint account can turn suuuuuuuuuuuuuuper messy when you divorce.  It was a nightmare.

I concur with ForeverDad about her wanting to work after the divorce.  It's unlikely.. so plan accordingly.

[formflier]

"high conflict" didn't show up until later in my marriage, but when it did the joint account and money agreements/budgets were a favorite place for FFw to be dysfunctional (hows that to say it politely)

Our money is pretty much completely separate now and any agreement is a "right now" thing so there is no time element for emotions to shift.

Oh the nuclear winter went on for a long time over this, but I believe it was one of the things that "stabilized" my relationship...certainly removed opportunities for conflict.

Anyway..long way of saying I'm surprised there is no "filter" on the money going to her and paychecks are instantly within her grasp as soon as deposited.  That being said, if trial is months away I wonder about the wisdom of a change this close to trial.  I'm sure L can guide you.

Have you raised this issue with your L?


Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Still...how many jobs has she applied for/attempted?

How many disability applications?

Disability lawyers consulted?

Hmmm...So, there is no objective test of any kind...whatsoever, that "shows" or "proves" this cancer exists?

What about the "symptoms"?  Are those objectively provable?  I get it that the cause might not be..but are the effects provable?

How many years now has she been doing this really expensive treatment?  Has the treatment been varied or any attempt made to "wean her off" during that time?

Best,

FF

She claims to have applied for a lot of jobs. I have no way to confirm that. I would guess she has applied to some.

She has never applied or, to my knowledge, considered applying for SSDI.

There is not an objective way to confirm without a tumor or something to run pathology on.  There are lots of blood and urine tests to measure various levels of things. Some of hers were elevated and some weren't.

The symptoms she had were real. This cancer is associated with something called "carcinoid syndrome." The cancer doesn't always cause "syndrome," but it can. She had pretty much all the symptoms of carcinoid syndrome. The effects were provable.

She has been on this treatment for about 10 years now. She has stopped twice, and both times the symptoms came back within a month or so. Patients with this kind of cancer pretty much just stay on this treatment for the rest of their lives. It's one shot once a month.

I don't really care whether she wants to call it cancer or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. Again, to me, the more important thing is what that diagnosis means for her even if it is cancer. And no doctor has ever said anything about it affecting her ability to work.

[stolencrumbs]

In the long run, it might be worth a consultation (or two) at a facility such as M.D. Anderson or Sloan Kettering or one of the Mayo Clinics.

This needs to be resolved. It just doesn't sound "right."

If one of the premier cancer clinics in the world can't classify her as having cancer, perhaps there is an autoimmune condition at play -- who knows? Whatever it might be...you need to pin down what is going on before any commitment on your part to financially embroil yourself in undefined health issues.

How often did she use the health card when there was conflict in the relationship?

Munchausen's is most definitely a possibility...the ultimate Victim position.

(I have a friend who is wealthy and has supported his ex-wife for over 20 years because she has MS. She lives in his owned mansion in a country club community and will NEVER re-marry due to her overly generous alimony and housing arrangements. Their daughter is long gone to college. She goes to a local university medical center for interferon treatments every three weeks and maintains that she is unable to work. She hasn't worked since she moved in with him over 27 years ago.)

We have been to the experts. One of her doctors is a neuroendocrine specialist at Vanderbilt's cancer center, and she has also seen doctors through the NIH as part of a clinical trial. There really are very few people in the world who know a whole lot about this particular cancer and associated conditions. It is rare and not particularly well-understood.

[GaGrl]

I did not realize you still had a joint account.

Here's my take on her current situation --

She has no motivation or incentive whatsoever to negotiate a settlement. Why should she?

She lives in the house, and you pay the mortgage and utilities.
She drives a car that you pay for, including maintenance and gas.
She receives expensive treatments for an undefined medical condition, and you pay the health insurance premiums.
She buys groceries and clothes and personal care (hair, nails) and entertainment and pays for them from a joint account.
And so on...

Nothing has changed for her since you left, and she has no expectation that anything will or should change, so why should she negotiate in good faith? She can go on like this for years.

The joint account situation could be your first opportunity to disrupt her status quo so that she better accepts the need to move toward negotiation or, at least, understands the implications of a trial.

You don't have to close the joint account. Just open an account in your name only, have your direct deposit go into the individual account, and transfer to the joint account only what your STBX can legitimately show she needs. In fact, if you took on paying the mortgage, utilities, etc. she would need only groceries and personal expenses.

Might this feel somewhat controlling? Yes. And it could be uncomfortable for you. She will react negatively. But taking on a position of more oversight and control of YOUR finances is appropriate in light of her inability to engage in meaningful negotiation leading toward an October trial.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with all who’ve said you need to end your automatic deposit into the joint account ASAP. She still has the potential to run up your joint credit card account. My ex did that after lying that he had taken his name off the account—doesn’t work like that, but I believed him.

Another thing to consider is that lawyers are still people with values, even when on the opposing side. That you’d want to make an offer supporting her mental health, providing her medical insurance, and making sure she doesn’t fritter away her money foolishly, will likely engage her attorney to a degree as an ally.

[formflier]

Definitely chat with your L about the incentives and how that will work if nothing changes until divorce decree.

That will be a MASSIVE shock to her.

I would think on a human level that incremental is best...but perhaps they have other advice.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I don't know what to do about the joint account. I had essentially budgeted for me to be able to live without any of it until mediation. Well, that's passed and I'm pretty much out of money that's not in the joint account. It will be a massive shock to her if that changes. As I said, she was shocked when the mediator informed her that I was not at all required to do what I have been doing. The mediator was shocked when I described the current setup. And really that's been the setup for years. I've definitely fed her sense of entitlement to all the money I earn. She is, post mediation, at least saying she recognizes that I need money that is my own, and that we can figure that out. I'm doubtful, but there is some recognition there that wasn't before.

Her very deepest-seated fear is to feel "poor," to lose her house, and to lose her car. She grew up very poor, going from place to place with her alcoholic mother. She never had any security and can't describe any childhood home or bedroom she ever had. So having a house that is hers is hugely important to her psychologically. The same goes for feeling like she has money to buy things. She really doesn't spend impulsively (at least not very often), and she has always held on tenaciously to any money in savings (which she did tell me in mediation that she has continued to do that. She has some money stashed away.) What I know about her is that "losing" her house and money she currently has access to without some plan for the future will be very, very bad. That may be what happens, and ultimately it's not my responsibility to fix this. On the worst outcome for her, she's going to have a nice chunk of change to start a new life. But if there's some way to ease that transition over the next year or so, I'm willing to do that.

Getting into the weeds a little bit, one current thought I have is this. We could tap into some of the equity in the house now, either by refinancing or a HELOC. It'll cost some money in fees, and we probably won't own the house long enough to really break even on that, but it could have some upfront benefits. We could take money and pay off her car. That would eliminate that payment every month and she could quit worrying about losing that. We could pay off debts that have accumulated over the last couple of years. That would eliminate monthly payments on that. That frees up a good bit of cash every month--probably enough that I could continue for a year or so to continue to support her and support myself. It would give her a year in her house with her basic needs taken care of to figure out what she is going to do. On the health care front, my L's suggestion is to delay the final decree. He has done this with other clients for 9-12 months. That would allow her to stay on my insurance while she figures out what to do. Then in a year, we sell the house, split the equity, and move on. Obviously this would all need to be in a well-crafted agreement with real deadlines and real consequences for not meeting them. 

Alimony will still be an issue, and I don't really see that being resolved, so we may end up in court to litigate that no matter what. She keeps telling me that alimony in futuro can be modified, so that if she does get a job, we can have the alimony changed. I'm not going for that. Period. But, rehabilitative alimony can also be modified. So maybe there's a way to shift the burden back to her. If we agree on X years of rehabilitative alimony that is conditioned on her being able to work, then the burden of modifying it if she ends up unable to work falls back to her. Maybe that can be conditioned on qualifying for SSDI or some other more objective measure of her ability to work. I really do believe she will work in the future, and/or will meet somebody else (sorry future dude). But maybe it's a salve of some sort if she knows she can petition for a change in alimony if her health really does deteroriate to the point that she is unable to work.

I don't know. Just things I'm thinking about, and you guys don't charge $250/hour to throw them out there.
 

[formflier]

So..how many people do you need to hear from that what you are doing is overly OVERLY generous and creating weird incentives.

Probably better to sell her car and buy something she can afford with cash left over...that will be cheaper to insure.

Listen..I would encourage you ask yourself as you read your threads..is this guy trying to put off the day of "change".

There was this hope that mediation would help...I think it opened your eyes and gave you knowledge. 

I gotta say the heloc idea scares me.  Because once all those debts and cars are paid off...why not charge them back up?

Much better to deal with home equity in a sale and let her sink or swim.

If you are out of money/budget.  Take what you need from the joint account and from now on deposit it elsewhere.

What is stopping her from applying for a job today?  What does she do with her time?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So..how many people do you need to hear from that what you are doing is overly OVERLY generous and creating weird incentives.

Probably better to sell her car and buy something she can afford with cash left over...that will be cheaper to insure.

Listen..I would encourage you ask yourself as you read your threads..is this guy trying to put off the day of "change".

There was this hope that mediation would help...I think it opened your eyes and gave you knowledge. 

I gotta say the heloc idea scares me.  Because once all those debts and cars are paid off...why not charge them back up?

Much better to deal with home equity in a sale and let her sink or swim.

If you are out of money/budget.  Take what you need from the joint account and from now on deposit it elsewhere.

What is stopping her from applying for a job today?  What does she do with her time?

Best,

FF

I don't know. I don't really think I'm putting off change. I do realize I would be being overly generous. I'm fine with that, especially if more sacrifice in the next year can put me in a better place after that.

On the credit issue, none of our credit is joint. She's not on the mortgage, she's not on any of my credit cards, she's not on the car loan, etc.

There currently isn't money to "take." She wrote a check for a couple grand to her lawyer out of our joint account. I can survive another month. I've talked with my L about this and I'll figure something out if we don't come to some kind of agreement soon.

I don't know what she does. She does a lot of volunteer work in town. She claims she had an opportunity to convert one of her volunteer gigs into a part-time job with benefits, but that my OP kept her from getting the job. I'm 99% sure that's BS, but that's her claim. She also claims she applies to jobs "all the time." Pretty sure that's BS, too. In the current job market, if she wanted a job, she could have one. It might not be the job she wants, but she could get a job. 
 

[mart555]

So..how many people do you need to hear from that what you are doing is overly OVERLY generous and creating weird incentives.

Maybe it's something that comes with time?  At first my ex was playing nice and all, I thought that everything would be fair, things would go smooth and whatnot. Then I realized that what she considered "fair" wasn't the same as we had discussed and it went horribly wrong. 

Had she signed the deal I offered 2 years ago, she'd have the kids 50-50, alimony, spousal support, and a bunch of other stuff.  She wanted more and things went downhill.   It took me a few months to realize that the "PLEASE READstorm" that happened was actually a blessing. 

[stolencrumbs]

Maybe it's something that comes with time?  At first my ex was playing nice and all, I thought that everything would be fair, things would go smooth and whatnot. Then I realized that what she considered "fair" wasn't the same as we had discussed and it went horribly wrong. 

Had she signed the deal I offered 2 years ago, she'd have the kids 50-50, alimony, spousal support, and a bunch of other stuff.  She wanted more and things went downhill.   It took me a few months to realize that the "PLEASE READstorm" that happened was actually a blessing. 

My trajectory has been the opposite. She hasn't even pretended to play nice for a long time, and has never put anything remotely reasonable forward. We're now approaching the end of this and I think she is realizing she is likely to do much worse at trial and is at least making some noises about playing nice. I want to figure out some offer that I'm okay with that is likely better than what she will get from the judge, and give her the chance to take it.