Need advice

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Here's probably more reality.

The teacher showed up at parent's night at school because it's her job.

You two went out at age 14 and she could care less about that now.

Your wife is justifying her behavior.

What should a wife do if someone is flirting with her husband? Well not what your wife did. That's a boundary for the husband. Being polite isn't flirting. Talking to a female isn't flirting. If the conversation becomes obvious it's more than just being polite and talking to you - and it appears to have crossed a line, just excuse yourself from it and move on. Nobody has to cause a scene or threaten someone.

It sounds to me as if you are buying into some twisted thinking here.

[Notwendy]

Here's probably more reality.

The teacher showed up at parent's night at school because it's her job.

You two went out at age 14 and she could care less about that now.

Your wife is justifying her behavior.

What should a wife do if someone is flirting with her husband? Well not what your wife did. That's a boundary for the husband. Being polite isn't flirting. Talking to a female isn't flirting. If the conversation becomes obvious it's more than just being polite and talking to you - and it appears to have crossed a line, just excuse yourself from it and move on. Nobody has to cause a scene or threaten someone.

It sounds to me as if you are buying into some twisted thinking here.

[15years]

It sounds to me as if you are buying into some twisted thinking here.

This is more than likely, but the other alternative could as well be close the truth. It could also be that she's creating a narrative retroactively to fit the event and paint her in a better light. When it happened I could only see her as a crazy person.

But you're right, it doesn't change much either way. And maybe she's reading into situations correctly at the start but twist it into something more dramatic than it was. Like a princess story where the teacher was the nasty witch trying to steal the prince right in front of her. And the princess is the only one noticing what is happening. I don't think anything can stop her from viewing the world like that.

[I Am Redeemed]

Your wife's theory sounds paranoid.

Is it possible that this teacher came to parents' night on purpose just to catch a glimpse of a teenage romantic interest? Well, yes, theoretically, that is something that could actually happen.

Is it probable that this is what actually happened? No.

People with paranoid thinking can come up with ideas that technically could actually happen (like being monitored by the government or followed by someone). These distortions aren't as outlandish as, say, believing that an outside entity is controlling your thoughts. Paranoid distortions of thought are usually things that are actually humanly possible, yet are very farfetched and are not reflections of reality.

If you've ever read formfliers story here, his wife had some really paranoid ideas about him having secret lovers; I think she even once believed he had a secret love child that he put on his insurance or something like that.

It's more likely that your wife has some really paranoid perception that anyone who you may have had a slight romantic interest in, no matter how long ago, is still focused on you, still attracted to you, and would actually go to extreme lengths to have any contact with you.

She is the one who is overly focused on the former romantic interests. If that teacher actually invented a reason to come to parents night just to see you and then pretended not to know who your wife was, that would be an indication of some really unstable behavior. Your wife can probably imagine this level of unstable behavior because it's actually on the level of the behavior she exhibits.

Most people would have a hard time imagining that a special Ed teacher would invent a reason to attend parents night just because she found out that someone she was romantically interested in at age 14 was going to be there with his family.

However, you are correct in that it's unlikely that she will stop viewing the world like this.

[Cat Familiar]

Occam’s razor suggests the simplest explanation is the most likely one.

Wouldn’t it make sense that the special education teacher was there on parent night because she needed to talk to parents about their children?

Yeah, it’s ego gratifying to think she’d make a special trip to check you out after all these years, but how would she know who your wife is?

[15years]

I know it sounds crazy and it probably is.

No she was at work at the second floor, came down for 30 seconds and then went back up. To get attention from me? Maybe not likely after all.

Usually i snap out of the twisted thinking on Monday mornings at work but this weekend was special, a lot of monologue and little fighting. I never said i agreed on her view but minute by minute it's getting less acceptable to not agree.

[formflier]

If you've ever read formfliers story here, his wife had some really paranoid ideas about him having secret lovers; I think she even once believed he had a secret love child that he put on his insurance or something like that.
 

Hmmm...seems like the time to jump in here.

My wife has a unique Biblical name, it is rare that I ever hear of someone else having that name.  So...imagine our/my surprise when  a "militant breast feeder"  that happened to be in the same McDonald's playland as us called her baby by my wife's name.  My wife approached her and verified the child's name was the same...I focused on minding my own business and not checking out whatever was left hanging out (FF definition of militant breast feeder...shirt comes off, kid gets fed, no blanket... other one is left hanging out even though the child isn't using it at the moment)

Anyway...this was really early in my  "journey" with paranoia and I unfortunately "fed the monster" with denials and alternate explanations...essentially trying to argue my way out of whatever had come up.

Well..."sneaking the kid" on insurance became a thing because my wife "realized" that if the child had her name...and was my child, that I could "sneak" health care to this child...um..sorry, my child... Because "Susie Smith" was already on Tricare insurance.  So all we had to do is submit under than name and it got paid and...and...my wife finally figured out where all my love children were...how I was able to carry on as I did (because of course there were more she would find)

I could go on and on...I'll end this post here and be back with some thoughts for you.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I would encourage you to use the point of view of "am I feeding the monster" or "feeding the fire"?

A good follow up question is "what feeds the fire"?

Denials and logic that "squish" the paranoid theory will actually "work" for a short time but almost always the theory comes back bigger and worse after a brief period of time for the paranoid person to  "sort though" all the proof.

So...what I used to do and what you should NOT get anywhere close.

"Oh FF, I know you were doing the nasty with Blondie over there and now I've caught you.  You made her holler last Friday night, when you claimed to be out of the country."

Well...I would bring out "proof" that I actually was out of the country (brief military deployments) and essentially "prove" that FF and his magnificent mustache were in no way...like literally impossible to do what she "knew".    So..many times should would drop her claim, of often saying.."well ok then...bu you "wanted" to"  

Pause things for a week and the next "theory" was bigger...worse and would be harder to disprove.  But I  eventually would.


All of that "logic" was "fuel" or "food" that I was feeding to the monster..fire...whatever.

A better course of action

FFw:  Blah blah blah.. FF got private treatment from nurse blondie...blah blah

FF:  Oh my...

(option 1 use humor)
FF:  Hey...why not put on your nurse uniform and "treat" me right now..?

(option 2  hand it back to her)
FF:  That sounds important to you.   What can I do to reassure you?

(option 3  be shocked when shocking things are said)

FF:  I simply don't know what to say.  (said in shocked way).   I'll have to give this some thought.

Do you get the vibe?  

Also please understand she didn't get this way overnight.   So even if you grew a magnificent mustache like FF and was perfect in responding...this is going to take a long time to dig out of.

There are no guarantees  how "well" she will get, but I do guarantee that if you keep "feeding" it...it will eventually consume everything  in your world...NO GOOD OUTCOME from buying into..feeding...any of that.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I'll end my posts for now with "current status".

She has mostly recovered (that I'm aware of) and we have a fulfilling relationship.

Funny this thread comes up the day after paranoia...kinda shows up for the first time in forever.

Enter "23 and me".   When I heard my wife was going to submit the test...I internally groaned.  But also realized I had time to prepare.  Glad I did.

And...for the record, there is some "interesting" history in her family, lots of uncles and aunts aren't "full" brother and sister to her father  and while I think I know the real stories...I wouldn't be surprised if there is more  to know.  (Lots of messing around back in the day)

Anyway..I've heard before that she believed she was "bought and sold"  (like her parents bought her...or alternatively were paid to take her from her real parents)...but it's been years since it has come up.

Well...23 and me showed all the interesting history and near as I can tell "revealed" more shenanigans from a couple generations ago.  Well...she became convinced that  since xy and z are shown on the test, I can't possibly be "fully" from my parents, but I could be "fully" from these others.  (interesting twist..her parents refuse to take the test, as done her older sister.  The twin brother she has did take it..and...wait for it...the big REVEAL...psyche!  he is her real full brother...shocker I know)

Well...over the course of the day more theories emerged.  Note...I wasn't asked for advice...then finally she texted..

"what do you think?"

FF texted back:

"I wish I knew more about this kind of thing to better understand the possibilities and "likelihoods"...all new stuff to me"

See...no  "fuel" there.  Today (in person conversation) she kinda said something like "I wish I knew more about this" and I responded with something along the lines of "these things take time to understand".

And there you go...no drama, no monster feeding.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

One example of disordered thinking is making something about you. Most people are usually thinking about their own agenda- their families, their job.

Special education teacher has an office in the school building. You mentioned she mostly was in her office, and then came down briefly but then went to her office again.

Professional behavior assumes confidentiality. A student's learning issues are confidential. She isn't going to discuss a students' personal learning issues in a meeting in front of everyone or approach a parent unless she had permission to do that. She can address general issues to the group or to parents, but not discuss their child's specific needs. Did she even approach any parent? If she did, it would have been established with the parent. She would not have approached you, not because she's ignoring you or not remembering you but that she didn't have your consent to speak in that meeting. In general when someone who has a professional position with a client sees them in a public setting, they don't approach them unless that person approaches them first. You didn't and so she didn't either.

She was acting according to her professional standards. It was your wife's behavior that was out of line. Assuming your adolescent "romance" was so unforgettable she's still thinking about and she secretly planned to check you out is a pretty far out idea. More likely, she isn't thinking of you at all. Maybe she had some work to catch up on. If I needed to do some catch up work in the evening, I'd choose a night where other teachers and parents were there- because it's safer. She had all kinds of reasons to go there that night that had nothing to do with you.

Even if she did recognize you, if I were in her situation and ran into 14 year old crush with his wife, I would not approach him out of consideration for her. She wouldn't know me. She'd wonder how we knew each other. But if he spoke to me I would say hello and let him introduce me to her- and I'd go with whatever he said. Likely he'd say " this is my classmate from school" and leave it at that. We don't need to discuss it further. That's boundaries. The teacher was acting appropriately.

Your wife's obsession with what you did as a teen is way out of line.

[ForeverDad]

It was parent teacher night.  If the special ed teacher works there then she had good reason to be there.  Period.

I have been listening to this all weekend and the more I listen the more I start seeing her view clearer than mine, which is a standard development in our debates.

People with BPD are typically excellent manipulators.  They've had decades of practice.  You are letting your spouse manipulate you.  All weekend?  I would have been agreeing 2+2=22.

2. My wife is expected to be nice and tolerate this...

"Tolerate"?  Odds are, this is all in her head.  This summer I just had a school reunion.  I didn't recognize anyone.  Not that I had a girlfriend then, but that was years and years ago.  If anyone was pining for me it wouldn't suddenly be after all these years.  Of course, your school days were more recent than mine, but still.

Your spouse knows how to tie you up into metaphorical knots... very, very well.

If you're so easily convinced of her perceptions, why are you here?

[Notwendy]

My wife is expected to be nice and tolerate this...

Yes, she's actually expected to tolerate normal encounters like this because, she's supposed to be an adult and behave like an adult. What she thinks she's supposed to tolerate isn't happening. It's in her imagination.

[15years]

People with BPD are typically excellent manipulators.  They've had decades of practice.  You are letting your spouse manipulate you.  All weekend?  I would have been agreeing 2+2=22.
...
Your spouse knows how to tie you up into metaphorical knots... very, very well.

If you're so easily convinced of her perceptions, why are you here?

Can you develop what you mean by "metaphorical knots"? I have been wanting to call it something other than manipulation. Maybe this is it.

I would encourage you to use the point of view of "am I feeding the monster" or "feeding the fire"?

This is something I've been working on. Although I was beginning to believe her view at the end of this weekend, I didn't JADE or feed the fire that much, I mostly just nodded and said things like "It's impossible to know for me".

It gets harder when she makes it about me.

"You don't like eggs!" - How would you respond instead of saying "I do like eggs!"?

One example of disordered thinking is making something about you. Most people are usually thinking about their own agenda- their families, their job.

Exactly.

I think she often feel like nobody cares about her. She deals with that by turning it around, thinking that people purposely manipulate her into feeling like she isn't important, while they really do think she is one of the most important persons in their lives.

She can't handle being one in the crowd.

Your wife's theory sounds paranoid.
...

Thanks for commenting this, it was helpful to read last night.

[15years]

I had a session with my T today. She has worked as a school counsellor for 20 years before her current work assignment, and her professional opinion was that the event most likely won't have any repercussions, and that the teacher can continue to work with our child (there was no doubt about that according to her). However, she found it very alarming and unusual that my W actually involved my ex, usually it stays in the family.

She said that what could happen is:
a) the teacher calls the police, but that would be unusual.
b) the teacher talks to her boss who could be in contact with my W if the teacher wishes her to, also unusual.
c) the teacher brings this up with my W personally, but that would take a lot of courage from the teacher and isn't expected of her.
d) nothing, which is the most likely scenario.


Of course, from a more personal perspective, if my W has gotten the taste for this kind of behavior, it's easier to repeat it.

[formflier]

It gets harder when she makes it about me.

"You don't like eggs!" - How would you respond instead of saying "I do like eggs!"?

 

I'm going to push back on this.  

It should be easier...seriously, waaay easier.

So...let's examine what makes it harder in your particular case. (hint:  You assume you must answer)

"You don't like eggs.."

"Interesting... not sure I've ever thought about eggs much."

or

"I see...interesting"

or use humor

"That's eggsactly what I was thinking..."

But...under NO CIRCUMSTANCES...zero none never ever...let hades freeze  over should you actually address the content/question that "comes at you."

Note:   You will need to figure out (usually by tone and attitude), when  she is "after" something due to paranoia and when she wants to know if you are out of milk...because she is making a grocery list.  (in other words...answer the grocery list question, never...ever...answer when the paranoid lawyer puts you on the stand)

Did I mention NEVER?

And...is she going to freak after trying for an entire weekend to "get a rise out of you" and not succeeding...?  yep.  

However, once she realizes that you no longer will get up on the witness stand, that behavior will subside.  It will take a while.

And if you wait 6 months to "get off the stand"...she will freak more and it will take longer to get to baseline.

Said another way...this is your choice, not hers.  She can't help herself...you  can.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

My wife did of course But it could still be the case. My wife's behavior was affected by her disorder, that's clear. But what if she's correct in her reading of the situation? I think she could be.

It doesn't matter.

An expert on treating PDs wrote that the path out of having a personality disorder is learning to inhibit the use of old, now habitual set of beliefs and life strategies and replacing them with more constructive responses.

Codependent thought patterns and behaviors are also habitual sets of beliefs and life strategies.

Codependent behaviors can make a person with BPD sicker.

Her behaviors are more problematic; codependent behaviors are problematic in a different way, though no less problematic. You become two sides of the same coin. Both are unhealthy.

Are you looking for evidence that she is justified in how she responds to perceived slights or threats?

Why would that matter?

Are you looking for evidence that you deserve to be treated like garbage?

I mean that as a sincere question. Do you feel she is *right* for treating you badly?

Only she knows how horrible you really are, therefore you deserve what she dishes out.

Anything like that?

[15years]

I'm going to push back on this.  

It should be easier...seriously, waaay easier.

So...let's examine what makes it harder in your particular case. (hint:  You assume you must answer)

"You don't like eggs.."

"Interesting... not sure I've ever thought about eggs much."

or

"I see...interesting"

or use humor

"That's eggsactly what I was thinking..."

But...under NO CIRCUMSTANCES...zero none never ever...let hades freeze  over should you actually address the content/question that "comes at you."

Note:   You will need to figure out (usually by tone and attitude), when  she is "after" something due to paranoia and when she wants to know if you are out of milk...because she is making a grocery list.  (in other words...answer the grocery list question, never...ever...answer when the paranoid lawyer puts you on the stand)

Did I mention NEVER?

And...is she going to freak after trying for an entire weekend to "get a rise out of you" and not succeeding...?  yep.  

However, once she realizes that you no longer will get up on the witness stand, that behavior will subside.  It will take a while.

And if you wait 6 months to "get off the stand"...she will freak more and it will take longer to get to baseline.

Said another way...this is your choice, not hers.  She can't help herself...you  can.

Best,

FF

Very good. Luckily, I feel that I have been practicing not answering the paranoia/disordered comments and questions for the last few months and I have noticed progress in myself, so it's easier to take in your suggestions. Comments are easier, direct question harder, because I feel more guilty/fearful not asking them. But I'm practicing sitting with that feeling. Discussions that's somewhere between twisted and honest opinions is also hard to not engage in.

[15years]

It doesn't matter.

An expert on treating PDs wrote that the path out of having a personality disorder is learning to inhibit the use of old, now habitual set of beliefs and life strategies and replacing them with more constructive responses.

Codependent thought patterns and behaviors are also habitual sets of beliefs and life strategies.

Codependent behaviors can make a person with BPD sicker.

Her behaviors are more problematic; codependent behaviors are problematic in a different way, though no less problematic. You become two sides of the same coin. Both are unhealthy.

Are you looking for evidence that she is justified in how she responds to perceived slights or threats?

Why would that matter?

Are you looking for evidence that you deserve to be treated like garbage?

I mean that as a sincere question. Do you feel she is *right* for treating you badly?

Only she knows how horrible you really are, therefore you deserve what she dishes out.

Anything like that?

I can't decide if due to my experience, I'm allowed to completely invalidate everything that feels disordered (by excusing myself from the discussion), or if I despite my experience should consider what she is saying (listening and deciding if she has a point). The risk of listening is losing my sense of reality. The risk of not listening is being unfair.

[Notwendy]

I can't decide if due to my experience, I'm allowed to completely invalidate everything that feels disordered (by excusing myself from the discussion), or if I despite my experience should consider what she is saying (listening and deciding if she has a point). The risk of listening is losing my sense of reality. The risk of not listening is being unfair.

Your wife has some demeaning views about men, but these are also demeaning views about women as if women have some kind of ulterior motive at a school function rather than to discuss their children's education or that women don't have any boundaries when it comes to respecting someone's marriage and their own.

Reality is that most women go to school functions because they are interested in meeting their child's teachers and learning how their child is doing in school. Most teachers go to school functions in the evening because it is their job. They'd most likely want to be home doing something else but it is a work requirement to be there.

[15years]

My wife is afraid of the grown-up world and wants to interpret everything as being about people's emotions and private motives. Maybe because she herself is preoccupied with these sorts of questions or that she can never step out of herself and take on a role, which I think is required in some social and professional situations. Taking on a role all the time can become a problem, but to some degree, it's healthy and necessary. Does this sound about right? Being professional herself would be something very personal and an emotional act.

[15years]

Now an example of the paranoia, she is messaging me about my username on a website I've been a member on forever. She's thinking that my ex-girlfriends can find me and stalk me, due to them remembering my username on other old inactive websites. I don't even remember if I had that same username on those websites. Basically she wants me to delete my profile. Also because she thinks that staying engaged at this website is "holding on to the past" (her exact words).

This is the type of "ultimatum-driven" arguments that I'm often faced with. Other than ignoring the subject, what can I say?

Is a simple "i notice that you are concerned, but I don't see this as a risk" too engaging?

[Notwendy]

How long are you going to put up with this? It doesn't seem to stop and anything you do to placate/diminish it doesn't stop it.

You just got past her going off on a teacher who most likely could care less that she dated you at 14.

Now, everyone on social media is after you?

It is very unlikely that your ex girlfriends are after you.  This is distorted thinking that every time you even look at a woman, even on TV, it's going to lead to something. It may be possible someone might be after you but if they were, it would be your job to defend your marriage. It's not up to her.

We can't change anyone's thinking. Doesn't matter what you say.

[15years]

Would it be too validating to answer her at all? Is the best alternative to steer away from the subject. Or be quiet? It feels like what I imagine sitting down for coffee in a tornado would feel like

Please be as blunt as you want - When you say "How long are you going to put up with this?" - what do you have in mind?

[Notwendy]

Being constantly accused like this would eventually result in me being angry and refusing to discuss the topic.

But this is just me. I can't decide for you and what you want to do about it.

Adults don't behave like this, otherwise there'd be ugly scenes at every high school reunion. Sometimes there may be, but mostly when we run into old crushes and old friends, we reminisce a bit and then move on to what is going on in our lives now and nobody's marriages are threatened.

[15years]

I know all this now... the stupid thing here is the decision to go home to this every day.

I decide to stay where I'm feeling uneasy and stay away from where I imagine I would be at ease.

[GaGrl]

Being constantly accused like this would eventually result in me being angry and refusing to discuss the topic.

But this is just me. I can't decide for you and what you want to do about it.

Adults don't behave like this, otherwise there'd be ugly scenes at every high school reunion. Sometimes there may be, but mostly when we run into old crushes and old friends, we reminisce a bit and then move on to what is going on in our lives now and nobody's marriages are threatened.

This bears repeating...

Adults don't behave like this.

Mentally healthy people don't behave like this.

Your wife has developed a level of paranoia that is dangerous to her, to you, to your narriage, to your children. It cannot be sustained without damage to everyone in the family.

Your wife indicates she needs to change nothing about her beliefs and behavior.

Your only power in the marriage is what you can change about yourself and your behavior.

[ForeverDad]

Your wife has developed a level of paranoia that is dangerous to her, to you, to your marriage, to your children. It cannot be sustained without damage to everyone in the family.

You know it, we all know it.  What next?  Rather, what do you do next?

I know all this now... the stupid thing here is the decision to go home to this every day.

I decide to stay where I'm feeling uneasy and stay away from where I imagine I would be at ease.

Have you noticed how your dilemmas are worsening?  Like that frog in the warming pot, will you instead save yourself before you're cooked?

Please be as blunt as you want - When you say "How long are you going to put up with this?" - what do you have in mind?

Your question was concerning how to answer and calm the Beast.  Bluntly, she will not allow any wise solutions from you.  Anything you try, if it even works, is likely only to work until the next incident.  It is literally "walking on eggshells".  She exhibits no signs of improving.  This will only get worse.

The decision is whether you can get ahead of this, either that or let her take you down and destroy you.  Oh, have you noticed changes to your posts lately?  She has managed to crowd out posts about your concerns for your children and your parenting.

[formflier]

 
Is a simple "i notice that you are concerned, but I don't see this as a risk" too engaging?

NOOO!

The bold is "invalidating"  (that's bad!)

Do you see how that is a yes/no argument?

Stay far far away from yes no arguments.


"I see the concern..." is probably a good answer.  When she presses you to delete the websites or something do not say yes or no.

"That's obviously important, I need to give it some thought.."

Then stop engaging...just stop.

The fire will burn out if you STOP feeding it.

Best,

FF

[Riv3rW0lf]

Oh, have you noticed changes to your posts lately?  She has managed to crowd out posts about your concerns for your children and your parenting.

This bears repeating.

Also, I would trust the wisdom of Formflier, who, as per his own description, has an epic mustache (I have to say I read most of his posts now with the voice of Sam Elliott since I've read his recent stories on another thread, am I the only one here doing that?). No but seriously though, I agree with him. You absolutely have to STOP feeding the fire and disengage from yes/no statements leading to her exerting control over you and bringing you down.

With any chance, this can free up space to start thinking again about the real victims and vulnerable beings in your family i.e., your children. They need you to be your best self. Cannot stretch that enough.

Have you given more thought on the PTSD aspect of yourself?

[formflier]

I wish I could get Sam Elliot status...he is like top of the mountain.

Naval Aviation Mustache!

Best,

FF



uhh...sorry for the Hijack...

Seriously though, when she wants to "put you on the stand"...just don't get up there.  That's 100% your choice.

[15years]

I'm worried about tonight. Based on how she acted yesterday and this morning before I went to work, I think this will be a bad night. Kids will be there, and they will be expecting us to watch a kid's movie and have snacks, like we usually do on Fridays. Last time which was two weeks ago was horrible. Trying to have a feel-good family event doesn't go well together with a dysregulated pwbpd.



I've been changing focus on my posts lately because I again think about and plan moving out all the time. Interesting that you have noticed.

I've been developing my communication with S6 lately, I'm more bravely and honestly talking about his mother's behavior. I feel like I'm on the right path, still careful not to alienate her, but also not hiding that I do feel that her behavior is negatively affecting the family, and I've been focusing on communicating to him that her behavior is on her, it's not anyone else's fault.



The problem with yes/no arguments is that no answer is hard to do. It's like I get stuck in her web, it's a no-win situation. Will try to remember this response tonight: "I see the concern... That's obviously important, I need to give it some thought.."

On a larger scale though, I know that separating us (and divorcing) is the only real solution. I have a new Therapist now who has a very deep understanding of personality disorders. She's helping me go through the practical and emotional part of a separation, so it's getting closer. It's insane how many free support options there are in a relatively small city in one of the Nordic countries. This is the fourth place I've visited, and they have all been really good. The only downside is that there are usually a limited number of visits, and with no option to pay for extra visits.