Always Maybe - Patterns and Cycles?

[Depression = 72% of members]

thanks for the concern folks, I am seeing my therapist, in fact we increased it to 2x per week for the time being.

If i had a magic wand and she treated me how I need to be treated it would look like this.

Direct communication regarding household things, not passive aggression

Her acknowledging and apologizing for the difficulty caused by having me need to move out immediately at her whim as opposed to the fact that I was on the lease and could have legally stayed, how much of a burden this has put on me and my son. Twice, simply to satisfy her impulsive need for isolation when in an episode.

Open, civil, and non-confrontational communication, mediated if need be, to establish a relationship baseline of communication methods.

An understanding that we both have different attachment styles, and love languages, and knowing what those things mean for each others needs.

No double standards (If she yells, its due to a trigger and is thereby forgivable, if I do it I AM the trigger and that = BADMAN)

regular, consistent therapy both couples and individual.

Lastly, for her to understand that I am not here to do anything but love and support her, and that if sometimes that becomes a lot for me to handle, all i need is a day's worth of time out. I will wake the next day the same as I ever was.

for her to believe and know with ever fiber of her being that I am not going to abandon her, and that my love is quite genuine.
As opposed to what her mind thinks is the norm.

What a great list - and what you have just experienced is a reframe - part of CBT and something that is so necessary in having a relationship with anyone in stressful times.   By broadening the picture, you allow your presence to take its place in the story. While it doesn't solve the core issue of the dynamic that you are trying to resolve, it does help you not lose yourself in the process. Do you know the analogy of saving a drowning person and making sure that both of you don't go down - so you need to put on your own life vest first and so on?   This list is like a life vest. I would encourage to massage it a remove any reference to her at all in it. This is not to say that you are cutting her out of your life. It is to say that you are going to spend so quality time togother ... with ... YOU. Yes ... the man who is trying to work on the relationship is going to spend some time with the man who made the list. You TWO will "talk" to each other.  Make sense.  It will help with all of the emotional turbulence you seem to be dealing with.

Keep it up. You are doing awesome.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[Rev]

thanks for the concern folks, I am seeing my therapist, in fact we increased it to 2x per week for the time being.

If i had a magic wand and she treated me how I need to be treated it would look like this.

Direct communication regarding household things, not passive aggression

Her acknowledging and apologizing for the difficulty caused by having me need to move out immediately at her whim as opposed to the fact that I was on the lease and could have legally stayed, how much of a burden this has put on me and my son. Twice, simply to satisfy her impulsive need for isolation when in an episode.

Open, civil, and non-confrontational communication, mediated if need be, to establish a relationship baseline of communication methods.

An understanding that we both have different attachment styles, and love languages, and knowing what those things mean for each others needs.

No double standards (If she yells, its due to a trigger and is thereby forgivable, if I do it I AM the trigger and that = BADMAN)

regular, consistent therapy both couples and individual.

Lastly, for her to understand that I am not here to do anything but love and support her, and that if sometimes that becomes a lot for me to handle, all i need is a day's worth of time out. I will wake the next day the same as I ever was.

for her to believe and know with ever fiber of her being that I am not going to abandon her, and that my love is quite genuine.
As opposed to what her mind thinks is the norm.

What a great list - and what you have just experienced is a reframe - part of CBT and something that is so necessary in having a relationship with anyone in stressful times.   By broadening the picture, you allow your presence to take its place in the story. While it doesn't solve the core issue of the dynamic that you are trying to resolve, it does help you not lose yourself in the process. Do you know the analogy of saving a drowning person and making sure that both of you don't go down - so you need to put on your own life vest first and so on?   This list is like a life vest. I would encourage to massage it a remove any reference to her at all in it. This is not to say that you are cutting her out of your life. It is to say that you are going to spend so quality time togother ... with ... YOU. Yes ... the man who is trying to work on the relationship is going to spend some time with the man who made the list. You TWO will "talk" to each other.  Make sense.  It will help with all of the emotional turbulence you seem to be dealing with.

Keep it up. You are doing awesome.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SaltyDawg]

Keep your guard up.

Keep your head up too. 

Practice self-care.  I find when I am near the bottom of my emotional mess, self-care, no matter what that might look like to you, is of paramount importance.

If you are looking for a video support group that deals with BPD, I found a free one and you can attend, I did my first one yesterday.  It is structured for the 1st 1.5 hours, and then open chat after that.

Information can be found here:  https://groups.io/g/MovingForward

[OKrunch]

Thank you both for your continued support.

The end of last week we obviously quite hard. I was fool enough to chase.
After learning some very damning information, and being coldly ignored for days, it has caused a dramatic shift in my mindset.
My best friend told me she had been messaging him and he said "i definitely got a solid vibe she was being pretty flirty and seemed very interested. If I had asked to hang out she would have certainly said yes."
So if she's willing to hit on my best friend. Yea. that's where I draw the line.


I am confident in myself, my housing prospects are hopefully looking up and this will not kill me.
I will be doing my own thing, and I vow, no more chasing or false hope.

As far as I'm concerned, she deliberately left the one person who has ever taken time to understand who she is and what she struggles with. So why should I be the one to be asking to hang out? She left, she can come back. Otherwise, this is totally quittsville.

Thanks again,

Sincerely,
An Invigorated Orange,

[SaltyDawg]

That's pretty messed up with her hitting on your BF.

You see her true colors, and are willing to take definitive action as you are becoming more self-confident.

In your recovery, be sure to seek out some kind of therapy, as bottling up all this negative emotion is not healthy.  Also do self-care.

Take care.

[Rev]

Hey OKrunch - what a great thread. I brings me back to the dynamics I experienced. Ultimately, I had to leave because she was abusive and bankrupting us.

For what its worth here are my answers to your questions:

1. Whats up with the constant Maybe's? she did this a bit during 2021 also, but i had assumed this was because of rebound guy. People with mood disordered live is a disordered way. Pretty much everything happens in the moment. pwBPD live in a world of feelings based facts. The "maybe" likely comes out of emotional dysregulation and turbulence in the moment - which causes fear - and then a feeling of "I hate you - don't leave me" (also the title of a good book) - AND - so out of fear comes a "maybe".

2.  I am working with MY therapist to figure out why i cannot let go of this. But man its hard. Why do i love someone who hurts me? when she is not dysregulated she is the most caring, kind, driven and intelligent woman ever.  How is that going?  My T and coach got me to focus on where my limits were - as in what was my bottom line and then to find the fortitude to stick to it, even if I wasn't feeling it emotionally in the moment if I was having a down day. From there, I have come up with the mantra that to answer the question you are asking (which we are all asking ourselves here) you need to give your body time to catch up to your mind. There's a great book out there on adult relationships called "Attached".  Highly recommended.

3. Since we BEGAN to have an understanding of her trauma, needs and triggers, i really feel like we can overcome this. But i may just be hopeful. Hard for me to answer this, but my thoughts are that until she remains regulated for a significant amount of time then this is just temporary - see your next question.

4. The cyclical nature and rerepeated patterns of the BPD fascinate me, has anyone else seen these types of consistent patterns?  Yes - this is typical. Often pwBPD will dysregulate close to family holidays as well.

As far as your text, I agree that there is an implicit ultimatum which rarely works well - communication strategy needs to be about minimizing emotional escalation and giving your partner to literally calm down.  Think of this as not giving a child who over tired and crank more candy rather than putting on soothing music and giving them some space in a comfortable spot for them with some coloring books or lego to play with.

We have an expression here :  Don't J.A.D.E.  

Don't  JUSTIFY
Don''t  ARGUE
Don't  DEFEND
Don't   EXPLAIN.

So, if you were to rewrite your text with only factual information, leaving any of your own emotions out of your words, leaving out any expectations you might have, etc, and do that in six sentences or less, what might you write.

Thanks for this.

Again,

Great thread.

Rev

How's it going with your 2nd question from the above exchange we had a while back?

Rev.

[OKrunch]

Doing both.

It was never directly confirmed she would, but even the possibility of it is appalling to me.

Therapy tomorrow and Thursday.
Hopefully hearing good news about the apartment I looked at.


Rev - Work with therapist is going well. She is compassionate to my refusal to completely abandon hope, but she is also blunt and realistic when it comes to what I should and shouldn't tolerate in a relationship. I look forward to discussing the weekend with her tomorrow. I stand much where I did. She pushed me away, and here is where I shall remain until such time as she comes and finds me there (or doesn't).
If and when that happens, I will cordial and kind, but I will not surrender my boundaries.
Here is the main revelation I had over the weekend.
"She never FULLY chose you" - (Something my sister in law said that has resonated)
The only time I believe she was fully invested in the relationship was in the beginning, when I was still moving towards being in love. My past experiences caused me to be cautious at the outset of a relationship. So when she was fully invested in idolization, I was a bit aloof.
Once I had fully invested in the relationship and said I was in love, it feels like that was the very slow beginning of the decline (1st decline).
Since that time, she has always held something, defensively, in reserve.
In order to have a fully functional relationship, we both need to CHOOSE eachother. At the same time, and for all time.
My brother and SIL certainly have their ups and downs like any marriage, but as she put it "no matter what happens, at the end of the day we always choose eachother"

Well right now, I'm choosing my son, and myself.
If she ever decides to choose someone other than herself, she knows where to find me.
Until then, I readhere to and, stick to my mantra.

"The Mountain Doesn't Chase The Wind"

[Rev]

Doing both.

It was never directly confirmed she would, but even the possibility of it is appalling to me.

Therapy tomorrow and Thursday.
Hopefully hearing good news about the apartment I looked at.


Rev - Work with therapist is going well. She is compassionate to my refusal to completely abandon hope, but she is also blunt and realistic when it comes to what I should and shouldn't tolerate in a relationship. I look forward to discussing the weekend with her tomorrow. I stand much where I did. She pushed me away, and here is where I shall remain until such time as she comes and finds me there (or doesn't).
If and when that happens, I will cordial and kind, but I will not surrender my boundaries.
Here is the main revelation I had over the weekend.
"She never FULLY chose you" - (Something my sister in law said that has resonated)
The only time I believe she was fully invested in the relationship was in the beginning, when I was still moving towards being in love. My past experiences caused me to be cautious at the outset of a relationship. So when she was fully invested in idolization, I was a bit aloof.
Once I had fully invested in the relationship and said I was in love, it feels like that was the very slow beginning of the decline (1st decline).
Since that time, she has always held something, defensively, in reserve.
In order to have a fully functional relationship, we both need to CHOOSE eachother. At the same time, and for all time.
My brother and SIL certainly have their ups and downs like any marriage, but as she put it "no matter what happens, at the end of the day we always choose eachother"

Well right now, I'm choosing my son, and myself.
If she ever decides to choose someone other than herself, she knows where to find me.
Until then, I readhere to and, stick to my mantra.

"The Mountain Doesn't Chase The Wind"

Your therapist sounds very cool - engaged, holding you to account for what you say, not being overly directive. After all, it's not her life to live. Her job is to make sure that you are sure you're living the life you want to live, given what is real rather than what is wishful thinking.

And about choosing - Can't remember where I heard this - but it's an image about pwBPD and their inability to choose.

In the love bombing phase, there's a moment, however brief, that they actually DO CHOOSE. And because you are seeking a secure attachment, when things go wonky, it's natural to return to that moment and start again. Just like you SIL and brother do.  The choose each other over and over, based on the first choice they made.

With people who are mood disordered, that moment of first choice is not anchored in time quite the same way. And once that door closes, they are less able to go back. The deeper the condition, the more difficult it is to go back.

The mountain didn't chase after the wind. You are on a good path, even if the path will have its bumps and challenges. Eventually who she is capable of being and what you need/want for yourself will become clear enough that the choice you want to make will become self-evident.

You ... are ... doing ... awesome. And one day, you will pay this forward.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Thanks Rev.

Being "homeless" is making this much harder.
I thought I was going to get that apartment, and I didn't.
Every time i have a setback with the housing situation, it just brings all my anger about having been kicked out AGAIN so callously. We had even discussed cohabitation before she kicked me out because the relationship was "failing" again.
Looking back I can see how so many of the fights were needless or manufactured. This helped drive home her narrative that she needed to get me away ASAP.

Question for the Masses: I have spent 2 months chasing off and on, and it has obviously yielded nothing fruitful. I should have known this from last time, but emotions > Logic in times like these.
My question is this.

Is the slow growing sense of "abandonment" from an ex NOT reaching out what causes them to cycle back?
They begin to perceive that you aren't chasing, and thereby must have found better things.

I can't help but look at patterns, and the longest we've ever gone without speaking was 6 weeks. She was the one who broke contact then. Recently, before she messaged me about the pregnancy thing, we hadn't spoken for about 2.5 weeks.

I shouldn't hope for results with no contact, I get that. However I do need to know what to expect, and when.
I feel like she was "testing the waters" with my friend, because she is lonely, in the past she has always rebounded, and doesn't seem to be doing so this time, so although I don't agree with or accept that particular piece of impulsivity, I do understand it.
My thoughts are that no contact my have some results a bit faster as she is still alone (as far as I know, totally possible shes seeing someone)

Still trying to corral all my invasive thoughts and sort out which ones are constructive and which are harmfully obsessive.

I may have given up hope on anything right now, but knowing what I do about fear of abandonment, I will never truly abandon her. She knows this, so I dont need to keep reminding her.

Off to look for more housing :/

[Rev]

Is the slow growing sense of "abandonment" from an ex NOT reaching out what causes them to cycle back?
They begin to perceive that you aren't chasing, and thereby must have found better things?

Good question - and there's no set answer.  One thing that is for sure - whatever reason they would reach out to us is motivated by a need in the moment - and one that may just as soon disappear mere hours later. All depends on the person. All depends on the situation, all depends...

I hear you on the "homeless".  I couch surfed for weeks - and I really am not sure what I would have done otherwise.

Put your head down. Do what you need to do.  Hang in there.

Rev

[OKrunch]

I just can't seem to get the potential patterns out of my head (as outlined in my first post)
Just useless persistent thoughts like, "it took 7 months before we started coming together again, 9 until i moved back in, so I should be hearing from her starting in march or april"
or other such time based examples of patterns she has exhibited before.
She usually dysregulates and devalues in Late summer / Fall.
Likelihood of rebound, blah blah blah.

I can't get them out of my damn, head, as much as I am activley trying.
If something pops into my head i try to distract myself with tasks at work, etc.

Maybe its just the addiction brain chemicals. Last contact we had was Friday when she basically told me "i wont be responding, im sorry bye"

From kick out in late Sept through most of Oct, I was in no contact and was not having these problems as bad.
Ever since we had to talk about the pregnancy thing, it kicked me back to square one of detachment recovery.

Just ranting / venting.

I also can't help but keep thinking that the way she turned my "boundary" back on me is a manipulation tactic, or is she really just trying to have healthy distance to heal.

I sure wish i could put my brain on sleep mode sometimes.

[SaltyDawg]

Okrunch,

   Is sounds like that you are obsessing.  You cannot control what she does, you can only control what you do.

   If I tell you to forget her, you won't.  No more if I tell you to forget about the pink elephant that I am about to tell you to forget it as well.  You can't forget, so forget about forgetting -- it doesn't work for me, and probably not you either.

   However, you can take positive action for yourself.  I find that distraction works really well for me.  I personally would get lost in a good movie, TV series, or even a good book.

   Do self-care.  Whatever that may look like for you.  You did mention becoming 'homeless' is this figuratively, or is this literally too as the the apartment you were looking at fell through?

   If it is literally, your first priority is to get a roof over your head, and a warm bed to sleep in, as they say "Winter is Coming"... especially as you have a child to take care of.

[OKrunch]

Salty,

I am obsessing, thats the problem. Im aware of it and seeking remedies.

Distraction and self care have been things im doing. Reinvesting in hobbies, looking for housing, spending time with friends. These things all help, but do not completely make this go away.

My son is fine, he has been staying with his mother. Im currently staying in a camper on my work property.

Its my "scientific" mind, that will not relent on trying to find patterns, to project future patterns, predict, understand etc.

There is a common theme of "you cannot understand or predict what they will do" and while that is technically true of any human, there is plenty of documented evidence of cyclical habits and repeated patterns.
I even read a scholarly article discussing the comorbidity of Seasonal Depression and BPD.

I'm a fixer, a saver (previous Firefighter and EMT), and a problem solver by nature. This relationship dynamic offers a particularly challenging set of criteria for me to try and understand, even when I try to tell myself there isn't anything to understand.
Furthermore, having seen some of these patterns play out consistently, and knowing I am typically in "favorite person" status, causes me to have a craving to know, and to try and understand these patterns.

I have likened this to a woman who is married to a soldier. She chooses to undertake some of the burdens loving someone with PTSD can present. I have had several family and friends basically tell me
"Dude, just get over it, put it behind you and move on"
Despite how many times i explain, that this completely goes against my nature, nobody seems to listen.
I understand their statement is made out of compassion for me and a desire to not see me suffer, but it doesn't change what's truly in my heart. I am choosing this, just like I chose it the first time, and the first reconciliation.

I know i will continue to try to understand, and it is getting easier with time, but boy can my monkey mind get awfully chatty when its quiet at work or when I'm trying to go to bed.

really thought I wouldn't still be waking up immediately with anger and anxiety still, 3 months later. But here we are!

[Rev]

really thought I wouldn't still be waking up immediately with anger and anxiety still, 3 months later. But here we are!

This right here - let go of this. There is no one-size-fits-all timeframe. It will just take the time you take. In fact, the more you obsess about how much time it's taking, the time goes up like compounded interest.  Salty is right - do what it takes to ride this out ...  this is detox. Eventually, you will start to shift from obsessing about her, to obsessing about you. It will still be obsessing, but at least directed at working on moving towards a life you want for yourself. And then eventually that subsides.

Hang in there and continue venting.  I found it really helped in the first ... wait for it ... 12 months.

Rev

[SaltyDawg]

I am obsessing, thats the problem. Im aware of it and seeking remedies.
I get it, I am the same way.  I figured out a way to get my uBPDw to come to the self-realization that she may be a borderline.  It is a partial success [this is the exception, not the norm] but at a substantial emotional cost.

Distraction and self care have been things im doing. Reinvesting in hobbies, looking for housing, spending time with friends. These things all help, but do not completely make this go away.
Understood, keep doing this, it will be helpful.  I would also suggest exercising too.  Do stuff for you, to make yourself better.

My son is fine, he has been staying with his mother. Im currently staying in a camper on my work property.
Good - I hope the camper is warm enough for you.  At least you are saving a few bucks in rent - there is always a good side, you just may have to look for it.

Its my "scientific" mind, that will not relent on trying to find patterns, to project future patterns, predict, understand etc.
Me too, I get it.  However, don't read too much into it.  Being borderline is illogical, it won't make too much sense. 

I'm a fixer, a saver (previous Firefighter and EMT), and a problem solver by nature. This relationship dynamic offers a particularly challenging set of criteria for me to try and understand, even when I try to tell myself there isn't anything to understand.
Furthermore, having seen some of these patterns play out consistently, and knowing I am typically in "favorite person" status, causes me to have a craving to know, and to try and understand these patterns.
Me too, I am a trained advanced marine firefighter/on-scene commander, and I am also a USCG certified medical person in charge [MPIC], roughly equivalent to the station chief and an AEMT.  I get it.  Trying to logically understand the illogical and why it is illogical is not an easy task.  Favorite person status does change, and it can change, and you can influence that change too. 

I have likened this to a woman who is married to a soldier. She chooses to undertake some of the burdens loving someone with PTSD can present. I have had several family and friends basically tell me
"Dude, just get over it, put it behind you and move on"
Despite how many times i explain, that this completely goes against my nature, nobody seems to listen.
I understand their statement is made out of compassion for me and a desire to not see me suffer, but it doesn't change what's truly in my heart. I am choosing this, just like I chose it the first time, and the first reconciliation.

That is the crux of the problem.  You are a trained rescuer, and a trained fixer -- it is who you are.  Please use the DBT skill of wise mind in this matter https://dbtselfhelp.com/dbt-skills-list/mindfulness/wise-mind/ and do what is best for you.  However, do keep in mind the consequences of your actions and/or inactions.  Plan for all possible outcomes, and choose the best one for your son, and yourself.  Please consider the words of your friends, especially as your actions do not impact yourself, but that of your son too. 

Now I am going to use a firefighter analogy.  If the building/room [relationship] you are fighting, you see the smoke of the room door breathing in and out and it is starved for oxygen [attention] and you are shut out like you are now -- this is a pattern not too dissimilar of the borderline mind when it is inflamed.  What will happen when you open the door to this room [relationship] to engage the fire and fresh air is re-introduced?  A backdraft/flashover will usually occur - you get an adrenaline rush from the flames/explosion [push/pull dynamic] with a substantial risk of injury to yourself.  Also, consider what will happen if you leave the room door closed and cool the perimeter?  [boring, but safer (relative term), the fire burns itself out] - either way there is major damage to the room [relationship] - is this room worth saving and fixing?  If you decide to fix it, you will have to change everything, yourself included to make this work.

I know i will continue to try to understand, and it is getting easier with time, but boy can my monkey mind get awfully chatty when its quiet at work or when I'm trying to go to bed.

really thought I wouldn't still be waking up immediately with anger and anxiety still, 3 months later. But here we are!

See a practitioner and get some meds to help you sleep [if your job allows it], if not, drink milk [or other sleep inducing food such as dark meat poultry].  Use the supplement melatonin can also be helpful. 

[OKrunch]

Now I am going to use a firefighter analogy.  If the building/room [relationship] you are fighting, you see the smoke of the room door breathing in and out and it is starved for oxygen [attention] and you are shut out like you are now -- this is a pattern not too dissimilar of the borderline mind when it is inflamed.  What will happen when you open the door to this room [relationship] to engage the fire and fresh air is re-introduced?  A backdraft/flashover will usually occur - you get an adrenaline rush from the flames/explosion [push/pull dynamic] with a substantial risk of injury to yourself.  Also, consider what will happen if you leave the room door closed and cool the perimeter?  [boring, but safer (relative term), the fire burns itself out] - either way there is major damage to the room [relationship] - is this room worth saving and fixing?  If you decide to fix it, you will have to change everything, yourself included to make this work.

Very interesting take on the situation. I can always appreciate a good backdraft analogy haha.
I guess here is my devils advocate reframe.
There is a victim in that burning room, and I, am sitting in the burning, adjacent room with a charged line.
Time for risk benefit analysis.
Will my patient self extricate using window egress? I have no radio comm's from command outside to know if they have or not.
I completely understand the changes WE would need to make to make this work, I am willing to at least entertain and explore them.
But, it takes 2, and she needs to want that too.
__________________________________________________________

In an ironic twist, she JUST texted me as I was typing this.

"I received the package you sent. I will get your Christmas stuff to you soon. Im just going through the rest of it to make sure i get it all"

Im not sure if i mentioned it in previous posts. But i recently mailed her a tee shirt of hers i found in my laundry (that i suspect she put there on purpose. it was unusually fragrant of her...suspicous) and the engagement ring i had used in June to propose (She had put it in my belongings, and I found it when i was going through my stuff after i moved out)

I mailed the ring back because it was something i gave to her. If she doesn't want it, she can discard, sell or give it away. (it is NOT expensive, Opal, not Diamond) I firmly believe it was given back to me so i had a sentimental item to obsess over.

I have not responded. Any advice?
My plan currently is to simply reply "Ok, thanks"

[SaltyDawg]

For the backdraft scenario, if the room is breathing the smoke in/out around the door frame and the rest is pretty much sealed, the O2 levels in the room are around 10% or less, less than what consciousness life can typically support - self-extrication is impossible.  Also, the temperatures are already excessive throughout all levels of the room except perhaps the bottom 6 inches, again too hot to allow for life except and the fire has fully engulfed the room already in its more advanced stage [recovery is possible in earlier stages], and all usable O2 has been consumed by the flames and is looking for more.  It is typically a body recovery scenario at this point.  I would never send in a team without proper working comms.  Now if it was a room which the boundaries were already compromised, that would be a different backdraft scenario.

Regarding the engagement ring, they are typically returned to the person who gave it when the engagement ends.  Sending it back to her, is signaling to her that you still want her.

With regards to the return text, just stick with your plan or a simple "thank you" should do, and nothing more.

[OKrunch]

For the backdraft scenario, if the room is breathing the smoke in/out around the door frame and the rest is pretty much sealed, the O2 levels in the room are around 10% or less, less than what consciousness life can typically support - self-extrication is impossible.  Also, the temperatures are already excessive throughout all levels of the room except perhaps the bottom 6 inches, again too hot to allow for life except and the fire has fully engulfed the room already in its more advanced stage [recovery is possible in earlier stages], and all usable O2 has been consumed by the flames and is looking for more.  It is typically a body recovery scenario at this point.  I would never send in a team without proper working comms.  Now if it was a room which the boundaries were already compromised, that would be a different backdraft scenario.

Regarding the engagement ring, they are typically returned to the person who gave it when the engagement ends.  Sending it back to her, is signaling to her that you still want her.

With regards to the return text, just stick with your plan or a simple "thank you" should do, and nothing more.

Salty,

Loving the backdraft scenario.
Valid points Cap. Message recieved.
Untenable conditions noted. Moving outside for defensive ops.

Regarding the ring. I was only looking to say "this is yours, here it is back"

Thats pretty much what i had planned on a reply. thanks for the confirm.

[OKrunch]

The ring she "lost" 3 weeks after engagements, and we all looked all over the house for a month. couldn't find it. "Found" it the week she kicked me out. Coincidence? i doubt it.

[Rev]

The ring she "lost" 3 weeks after engagements, and we all looked all over the house for a month. couldn't find it. "Found" it the week she kicked me out. Coincidence? i doubt it.

No coincidence there. In fact, "possessions" play a big part of BPD behavior. My ex did the same. Hid stuff on me as I was moving, only to have "found" them later.   

 

[OKrunch]

No coincidence there. In fact, "possessions" play a big part of BPD behavior. My ex did the same. Hid stuff on me as I was moving, only to have "found" them later.   

 

Same reason I believe that one single shirt ended up in my clothes that I took when I moved out. That she packed.

her text today was kind of odd, seemingly benign. but the flat way she said "I got your package" and then moved on to something unrelated was strange.  Maybe im just looking for signs where they arent.

[Rev]

Maybe im just looking for signs where they arent.

pwBPD live in a world of "feelings based facts" - there are no "signs" per se - there are patterns of over-arching cycles (like my ex has about a two-year limit before things fall off the rails.)  But in the moment, there is no coherence - which is why (haha) they call it a disorder.

More than likely, the "sign" you are looking for is a somatic response you are having that is looking for an answer or affirmation of some kind. Once your body catches up to your mind, you will see her patterns more clearly and be less hooked by "signs".

Hang in there.

Things appear to be clearing up - even if it's hard and it may not feel like it, you are moving in the right direction. At this stage, this really is about YOU.  And ... YOU are doing great.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Rev - It definitely feels like its getting lesser. If i could get my living situation squared away things would be much easier. I'd have much more to focus on and distract myself with. Ill find something.

Christmas was a big deal in our house, her Daughter and my Son would both get pretty obsessed. Nearing that day is getting harder, and I miss my dogs so damn much.

I'm worrying that I made A mistake in sending the tee shirt and ring back.
I keep going over whether or not doing so pissed her off, or made her feel anything, or she didn't give a crap.

At the end of the day, I sent them back because I didn't want them in my presence, and they were artifacts of a happier time that was dousing the embers of my healing process. So they had to go.

[OKrunch]

Control has been the topic of the week with therapy.

I cannot control anyone's actions or reactions. Only my own. I cannot seek to mentally or spiritually coerce any actions or inaction. What will be will be.


I am confident that, despite the issues I brought to the relationship, I was improving and I was bearing a lot of her daily emotional burden. A burden I very much wish she did not need to carry.  Anger management is going very well. I understand a lot more of my root causes than I did 2 months ago.


These things, aren't, my fault. I was merely the person closest, thereby the easiest blamed and and reflected upon.

Her trauma is not her fault, but nor is it mine. Nor is it mine to fix. I can only balm it, and calm it, but she has to want that.

I have made choices. There are choices I've made about what I cannot tolerate in the future, with her or anyone else.
I have chosen to be there for her should she ever seek it, I am learning more and more about trauma responses, CPTSD/BPD, abandonment issues, and fear of commitment.
I WILL be there for her, but only if she comes to find me. I will not be in the same spot she left me, but higher up the trail, more fit, mentally sound and stoic.

I will not walk further DOWN the trail to meet her, for she has her own climbing to do.
I cannot help her clear the treeline into the alpine zone, but boy will I be happy to share the summit view with her if she does.

I know I love her, and the love of a whole family has magic superpowers in my opinion. I believe that the knowledge of communicative, open, therapy assisted family life is the best chance for her to live a normal live. to know, without a doubt, that she will always have someone in her corner. She has to find this book and learn this knowledge. I cannot teach or show her.

Each day without her is painful. She is my muse, my motivation and desire. Or at least she was, and could be again. I know the magnitude of the love I offer.

Apartment hunting is beyond frustrating. The rates and requirements are insane right now.
I have resolved to keep my head down, stick it out in the camper and hoard money like a miser.

I have set a goal of April first to have saved a 6% down payment (3.5 is the requirement for FHA loan around here), and I want to be in the process of purchasing by my birthday in Mid July.

My door will be open to her, but my boundaries will not be.

They say "If you love them, let them go, if they return its meant to be"
Well, that already happened once.
They also say, "Third time's the charm" and I guess we might test that one someday, or maybe not.
Regardless of what the end of the story ends up being, my love will never go away. It my get put in a dusty box, and it may never be opened again, But it will always be there.
ALWAYS.

I will close this post with one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite bands.

"Proudly it stands
Until the world's end
The victorious banner of love"
~ "The Maiden and the Minstrel Knight" by Blind Guardian

[Rev]

Control has been the topic of the week with therapy.

I cannot control anyone's actions or reactions. Only my own. I cannot seek to mentally or spiritually coerce any actions or inaction. What will be will be.


I am confident that, despite the issues I brought to the relationship, I was improving and I was bearing a lot of her daily emotional burden. A burden I very much wish she did not need to carry.  Anger management is going very well. I understand a lot more of my root causes than I did 2 months ago.


These things, aren't, my fault. I was merely the person closest, thereby the easiest blamed and and reflected upon.

Her trauma is not her fault, but nor is it mine. Nor is it mine to fix. I can only balm it, and calm it, but she has to want that.

I have made choices. There are choices I've made about what I cannot tolerate in the future, with her or anyone else.
I have chosen to be there for her should she ever seek it, I am learning more and more about trauma responses, CPTSD/BPD, abandonment issues, and fear of commitment.
I WILL be there for her, but only if she comes to find me. I will not be in the same spot she left me, but higher up the trail, more fit, mentally sound and stoic.

I will not walk further DOWN the trail to meet her, for she has her own climbing to do.
I cannot help her clear the treeline into the alpine zone, but boy will I be happy to share the summit view with her if she does.

I know I love her, and the love of a whole family has magic superpowers in my opinion. I believe that the knowledge of communicative, open, therapy assisted family life is the best chance for her to live a normal live. to know, without a doubt, that she will always have someone in her corner. She has to find this book and learn this knowledge. I cannot teach or show her.

Each day without her is painful. She is my muse, my motivation and desire. Or at least she was, and could be again. I know the magnitude of the love I offer.

Apartment hunting is beyond frustrating. The rates and requirements are insane right now.
I have resolved to keep my head down, stick it out in the camper and hoard money like a miser.

I have set a goal of April first to have saved a 6% down payment (3.5 is the requirement for FHA loan around here), and I want to be in the process of purchasing by my birthday in Mid July.

My door will be open to her, but my boundaries will not be.

They say "If you love them, let them go, if they return its meant to be"
Well, that already happened once.
They also say, "Third time's the charm" and I guess we might test that one someday, or maybe not.
Regardless of what the end of the story ends up being, my love will never go away. It my get put in a dusty box, and it may never be opened again, But it will always be there.
ALWAYS.

I will close this post with one of my favorite quotes, from one of my favorite bands.

"Proudly it stands
Until the world's end
The victorious banner of love"
~ "The Maiden and the Minstrel Knight" by Blind Guardian

Hey Crunch,

Just wanting you to know I read this. Hang in there.

One day at a time, you do you, and all that other stuff...

Reach out any time.

Rev

[OKrunch]

Thanks Rev, I'm doing better.

Then sun sets the same on an overcast days as it does on bright ones, despite what we can't see. It rises just as gorgeous in the morning. Spring always follows Winter.

The universe is cyclical. Life is cyclical.

The Great Magnet rolls ever onward.

[SaltyDawg]

OKrunch,

I too am reading; however, I may not comment on everything, especially if others have already said it. 

You are in my thoughts.  Hang in there, and it sounds like you have a good housing plan. 

Take Care.

[cranmango]

I'm reading, too. Much of your situation resonates with me, with strong similarities to my own. And your words today describing acceptance and growth really resonate with me.

Hang in there. Keep moving forward.

[OKrunch]

Maintaining good attitude and trying to concrete new habits.

1. Getting back on the wagon with quitting smoking. I had quite for about a month right before the breakup. Time to set that back to rights.
2. I am confident the housing situation is going to settle around here. It just requires waiting, and letting winter take its effect on the market.
3. I am going to be time blocking my days. This will prevent me from long periods of overthinking and ruminating.
4. Part of the time blocking will include excercise. Which i hate doing, but I've known its something I need to train myself to be habitual about for some time.
5. Read more. Fiction, Non-Fiction. whatever. Just read real books.
6. Improve diet, shift from easy, quick unhealthy crap, to pre-planned, healthy not-crap.
7. Wait, like a hungry leopard, and pounce upon the juicy Tapir of opportunity when it presents itself and BUY AND DARN HOUSE.

This is my action plan, as devised during 4.5 hours of driving this weekend.
----------------------------------------------------------

That being said, I did also have an interesting phone conversation with her.
She has Christmas stuff I missed in her shed when I was moving out in October.
I had texted her about this, and when we were taking care of it on Friday evening.
She didn't answer that night, but did on Saturday morning.
She said she would let me know when she would be dropping it at my work.
It was very factual and kind of business like. I closed the conversation by saying
"I miss the way we used to talk. Thanks for letting me know the plan with that stuff. I would like to chat, if you want to give me a call on Sunday, I'll be driving home and will have time to talk"
I kind of got mad at myself for "being so available" with that message, and I did not expect her to call.
Oddly enough, she did.

She asked what I needed to talk about, and if everything was ok. I said things were fine, and that I had mentioned what I did the day prior because I literally wanted to just chat. I asked her about work, her daughters dance lessons, the dogs, etc.
It was actually a nice chat.
Then she went on to reiterate that she had thought I needed something, and that she hadn't thought it was a call to just catch up. I told her I was sorry she got that impression, to which she replied "oh its ok, it was my own assumption".
She then went on to talk about the fact that she has been cold in her replies because she is trying to have space like we had talked about back at my boundary message. I said I understood, and that talking to her was just too natural, which it certainly can be. I talked about seeing the dogs, and she said she felt like there was "ulterior motive" last time I had asked, because her agreeing to do so, led to me mentioning that I cant be platonic, and we never saw each other. She made a comment about my "boundary" and said the she still thought it was a good idea, but I could also tell she did not like how it had come off ultimatum-ish (Yea, so you guys were right about that)
I said that I had no hope, expectations or wouldn't make any moves if / when we ever see eachother, but reminded her I would never be without feelings and attraction. She said "I'm not ready for that"
She went on to talk about how she was focusing on her "routines" and herself, and daughter. That taking care of the house, daughter and dogs took up all her time and energy. She said something about "Moving on" and quickly jumped in to specify it was "not moving on romantically, but in my own life". She seemed pretty legitimately concerned about how I was doing and asked several questions about my son.

So, she's still distant / hesitant and definitely still harbors some bad feelings about a lot of things. Still Aloof and distant.
However, she is not raging at me. She spoke about her normal stuff (work dogs etc) very casually and freely.
I said I would respect her space and that I was around. She said she would be by soon with the Christmas stuff.
The conversation ended civilly and didn't drag on

I have some mixed feelings about this interaction. I feel like it still leaves me in the position of less "power" (i hate that term but I don't know how else to put it), but it was a generally pleasant exchange and those always feel good with her.
I still feel as energized as I did on Thursday/Friday, but a bit more...At Peace? after that conversation.
Being at peace seems like a distany memory, so being noticibly closer to that feels like a win.

Im still doing ME, for me and ME LAD. Whether that conversation was closure, the seed of a new page, or literally nothing makes not much difference in the execution of my plans for myself.

FF Krunch clear of the scene and returning to quarters.

[Rev]

What I notice here ... same trying to figure out exactly what this relationship is - less emotionally turbulent reactions - more getting a grip on what you are available for and what you need for yourself.

Thoughts?

[OKrunch]

What I notice here ... same trying to figure out exactly what this relationship is - less emotionally turbulent reactions - more getting a grip on what you are available for and what you need for yourself.

Thoughts?

Id be inclined to agree.
I still certainly still have that need to understand, and much (still probably too much) investment on its outcomes regarding the two of us. However, today felt more fulfilling. It was more logic than emotion. The storm is settling and I am thinking more clearly because of it.

I'm thinking as much of houses as of her. If not more. It feels good to have a goal, a landmark to guide by.

I had an awesome weekend with my son, and that was more important than anything I wrote about otherwise.