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Author Topic: Need help reinforcing my boundaries.  (Read 1648 times)
Riv3rW0lf
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2023, 03:53:17 PM »


And there is a certain level of helplessness that comes with this.


A lot of wisdom in all the posts on this board.

I just wanted to say that contacting this helplessness, this incapacity to save my mother from herself, is ironically, at the same time, what has empowered me the most.
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Couscous
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« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2023, 04:28:13 PM »

Personally speaking, I would want to hold off accepting helplessness over a situation like this until I had had at least a couple of family therapy sessions — but that’s just me.
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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2023, 05:17:25 PM »

Very interesting.  It feels more like empowerment, not helplessness, to me, at least right now.  We all know we can’t “control” our family member with BPD, but it doesn’t mean we don’t have moments of feeling helpless, to me that ‘s just being human in a difficult situation.  But for me that “in that moment” I described feeling was one of acceptance,  that I didn’t need to  “do” anything other than observe…. And a sense of confidence that it would be all right, that I would do what I needed to do, to protect my mother, if needed.  It felt good.

Thanks for the Jordan Peterson link Couscous. He is quite an amazing speaker, and I agree my sister is not consistently a good faith actor.   I find reflective listening, which is what he describes,  does work with her, but only in the short run.  Validating her works also, but again only in the short run.

When she dysregulates, there is not much I can do but step away.  The return on investment is no longer there for me.  I did ALL the work in our relationship in the past and never got anything but a short term false sense of peace.  I would walk away if my mother wasn’t still alive and we were not legally bound as CoTrustees.  I am 100% certain of that.  Because I love and care about her, it took a lot of therapy to emotionally detach, but I now know it is the healthy place for me. I am trying to think of her more like a difficult person at work, who I can deal with, have empathy for, but I can also maintain a professional boundary, such that they don’t drain me.  Harder for sure with a family member, which is why my #1 weekly goal for me week for the last 3 weeks has been “maintain boundaries”.   I appreciate the responses, it really helps me self reflect. 
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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2023, 05:24:03 PM »

Personally speaking, I would want to hold off accepting helplessness over a situation like this until I had had at least a couple of family therapy sessions — but that’s just me.

Yeah... On my end, my BPD mother made it quite clear she has no intention of attending family therapy with me, which I proposed at numerous occasions over the past year. So I let go... And the feeling of helplessness morphed into liberation and empowerment. I do believe I did my best.
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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2023, 05:52:23 PM »

Yeah... On my end, my BPD mother made it quite clear she has no intention of attending family therapy with me, which I proposed at numerous occasions over the past year. So I let go... And the feeling of helplessness morphed into liberation and empowerment. I do believe I did my best.

Yep, same with me and my sister. She claimed she wanted to attend family therapy and relentlessly hounded me on this for months, but I had the feeling that she was not acting in good faith, so I declined. But a couple of months later I was feeling mentally strong enough to face her in the therapy room and told her that I was now willing to do so, and what do you know, she changed her mind...

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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2023, 10:47:42 PM »

My sister went on a nasty text rampage today and I decided to block her phone number.  My son blocked her on my phone once after a bad interaction, but I unblocked it the next day. So this is a first for me.  It is likely the beginning of NC.  I can’t take it anymore.  I am done.  My therapist agrees with my choice and encouraged me to just “ go silent” /no announcement and to see how I feel after a few days. 

She is verbally abusive and her toxicity is very unhealthy for her and me.  I am choosing myself and my mom.  I have tried to think through all the worst case scenarios, and have decided I am prepared and ready for all of them.  I am sad about it, but I know  I have carried this relationship as far as I can.  I am feeling some guilt as I know I have enabled her at times in the past, and that my “ over functioning” contributes to our dysfunction.   But I also know  that I don’t have these issues with anyone else in my life, and that I have done my best. 

Any advice on going NC appreciated.

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zachira
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2023, 12:19:43 AM »

Mommydoc,
I feel like I understand what if feels like to have to go NC with your only sister, as I have done with mine and you are now doing with yours. Sometimes we just get to the point, in which no matter how hard we try the abuses never stop and continue to escalate, and we have to go no contact. As far as advice, I would say that the best advice my therapist ever gave me was to observe how I felt inside when in the presence of a disordered person instead of observing their actions. I have modified this advice to focus inward when I am feeling overwhelmed with thinking about how my sister's abusing me has impacted my life. I regularly meditate so that I do not get so overwhelmed with strong feelings in intensity and length of time. You have developed many coping skills to manage the intensity of the relationship with your sister, and surely will continue these practices to deal with the feelings that come up over the NC. Most likely, you will go through some periods of grief and anger, though it seems you have been grieving the sister you never had for a long time, so maybe you will be more relieved than anything. You also have legal issues still to resolve with your sister as I still have with mine, and you have put things in place so professionals can directly deal with your sister and you don't have to have any direct contact with her. I am wondering if you have any thoughts on how you will handle any contact with your sister if she comes to visist your mother. It sounds like you do not think she will be visiting your mother again. Keeping you in my thoughts and wishing you peace as you cherish the time you have left to spend with your mother.
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2023, 06:08:47 AM »

I think NC is the right choice at times but I think we also have to consider our ability to maintain it, because, if we are not able to do that, we may end up in the push pull pattern- NC, break NC, NC which can be a part of the dysfunction in the relationship. In addition, it can result in a reaction, escalation of drama with the other person. I think we need to be able to decide- no contact regardless of their behavior.

NC is also difficult when we want to keep contact with someone who is attached to that person. At one point, a counselor suggested I go NC with my BPD mother- maybe a good idea in theory- but I tried to continue contact with my father, and him being connected to her made that impossible to have that situation.

After he passed away, I decided on LC, as there are several connections in the family still, and while my mother's circle distanced me at the time, there were connections beyond that.

For the moment - the two of you are connected by your mother and your mother's finances and in this situation, some contact  between the two of you will be necessary. LC may be the more manageable situation for the moment.

The family dynamics seemed to change when my father passed away and I realized that he had been the "glue" between relationships. My connection to him was a part of the connection to my mother, and I think, vice versa as she functionally disowned me at the time. My mother dislikes my father's family ( it was mutual ) and he was the reason they maintained a cordial relationship with her- so that contact changed.

I could have gone NC at the time, but the idea of doing it when my mother was now elderly and on her own didn't seem OK with me but I felt the need for emotional distance at the time and chose LC. I don't know what I would have considered had my mother been younger and also if she had remarried. Your sister is in a different situation.

This behavior- disown, stop speaking to me, raging, is part of the push pull behavior. Following this is the pull, being nice. It was a counselor who raised the idea that the opposite of dysfunctional behavior is still dysfunctional, and a reaction to their behavior- the idea- to seek middle ground and stay calm while their emotions change. At the time of the drama when my father was ill, I didn't know this. They'd get angry at me, I'd assume they meant it and kept a distance. Then they got angry at me for keeping a distance.

My mother's BPD behavior escalated around the time my father was ill. For one, the dynamics between them changed- he was now not doing all the things he did to meet her emotional needs. She was dealing with her own emotions- which are normal for the situation and pwBPD have difficulty with their own emotions and she was projecting them. I was also dealing with my own emotions and not aware of BPD dynamics at the time.

I am not excusing your sister's behavior but I think it makes sense in context of her having BPD. She herself is dealing with her own emotions surrounding this difficult time with your mother. She is also likely feeling the strain of financial issues. Her increase in BPD behavior is explainable.

That doesn't mean you have to tolerate it. My mother's behavior was emotionally and verbally abusive to the point where nobody should tolerate that. I know now that, while keeping at a distance was absolutely necessary for me and the right thing to do at the time, it also resulted in my parents being more angry. The alternative, to have no boundaries with my mother's behavior also was not a reasonable choice.

You have a lot going on right now and the first thing is self care of course. Considering that some contact between you and your sister is necessary, you may want to consider LC- non reacting, emotionally distant for now- not tolerating her abuse but also not making any declarations of NC to her. For me, LC resulted in an eerie distance between me and my mother, as I think that drama is how she relates to people and without drama, there doesn't seem to be a relationship in the same way.

Speak to your sister when necessary, but not with emotion. I think this nasty text from her is a result of you not agreeing to her wanting to meet. When my mother wants something and I say no, her behavior escalates. Being mean and nasty is one way she responds.

Do what you need to do to not be subjected to your sister's behavior. Aim for not being reactive for now.
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2023, 09:10:24 AM »

I didn’t go into depth but what triggered my sister yesterday, is my upcoming vacation.  Same thing that triggered her in December.   

She knew about my planned vacation in December and was considering coming to visit.  She actually wanted to put my mom in hospice, so that it would be in place in case my mom got worse while I was away. Then mom got sick and she flew out emergently. We both thought mom would pass away prior to my trip.  When she didn’t and had stabilized, I was depleted and considered going ahead with my vacation, knowing she was now in hospice and I could get back within a couple hours.  I never asked her to come out. She forbid me from going on my trip.

Me taking vacation = “abandoning mom”= “she has to come out”= “financial impact to her” = “me persecuting her”.

She  revised the story to “you decided to go on vacation on 12/24, made me drop everything to come out again, and didn’t even offer me FF miles”.  Even though hospice encouraged me to go, I ultimately decided that the possibility of some lucid moments in my mom’s final days was worth giving up my vacation with the rest of my family .  I knew that by not going after she forbid me, it sent her the wrong message, but my decision had nothing to do with her. 

Fast forward, I let her know about a month ago, that I had another shorter vacation planned, mom is stable, so more of an FYI. I let her know she was welcome to come anytime.   She has being using “planning for your vacation” as the newest reason to meet with increasing urgency as we get closer.  I have not agreed to meeting, and kept saying “ you don’t need to come, but you are welcome to come”.  The same thinking “ Me taking vacation = “abandoning mom”= “she has to come out”= “financial impact to her” = “me persecuting her”.  Now she is demanding to know all the details of my vacation “ who, what, when, where, how, my mode of transportation, and my plan for who will be responsible for mom” and told me I was not allowed to make this decision without her as “ co-trustee”

The rant then centered on an illness requiring hospitalization that occurred when I was in Africa a few years ago.  Admittedly, it was bad timing, but not my fault.  She has turned it into mom was sick before you left, she didn’t get care for days because “I” didn’t list her as next of kin, and there was no decision maker, that mom was severely disabled as a result of the illness.  Mom was not sick when I left, both she and I were contacted, there were no delays in care, and it took a day for my sister to get out there and a few days for me to get back. It was my hospital and my friends/colleagues made sure my mom got VIP treatment.   My mother recovered fully from the illness, but her underlying Parkinsons has progressed very slowly over the last few years.  She paints herself as the hero who dropped everything to “save mom” and me as causing irreparable damage, by irresponsibly going on vacation to a remote place.  There is a lot more, but that is the gist of it.  She brings her version of the story up several times a year, so nothing new.  I understand that event was very emotional for my sister, she witnessed my mother with symptoms of delirium ( which she associates with the devil). There are things I could have done differently, but I have acknowledged and apologized, and I won’t acknowledge, defend or apologize for the “false” narrative that she seems to “ self torture” herself with.   Thankfully, I got back before my mom went home, as my sister was making arrangements to have my mom discharged to a board and care, without telling me, which was entirely inappropriate.  I never challenged her on it, since I was able to correct the situation on my return and got her returned to her home assisted living.

I understand why she conflates this past event with me going away.  I understand she is grieving and she wants to be “needed” and to be the “hero” for mom.  And I know NC will trigger her further at a tough time for her.  I feel bad about it all.

I also know that “ I matter”. I know my mom is stable, and I will be a few hours away, not days away.  I know that there are minimal decisions to be made since she is in hospice, no 911, no resuscitation or hospital care.  If something happens, it will be comfort care, and hospice is there, and ready to spring into action.  That is what they do, and they have reassured me they will get in touch with me.  I know that my sister is being regularly updated on my mom, and that my responsibility is to my mother not to her.  I know that my mother gave me permission last year “ take care of myself and to stop trying to make her happy”.  I know my mom would want me to go on vacation.

Zachira, thank you so much for lighting the path for me.  Your situation is the most similar and I think of you frequently when I face challenges in this journey.  I like your advice of focusing on my own feelings.   Yesterday, this was all playing out while I was attending meetings, where I needed to be present.   I kept my cool, and did deep breathing exercises as I walked to my car to go to my next meeting.  I stopped looking at my phone and refocused on my colleagues in the meeting, and didn’t allow myself to look any more at my phone.  After the 4th text I knew that I wasn’t going to respond for at least 24-48 hours.  It wasn’t until I sat down and read them all to my husband that I fully processed my emotions and he suggested NC, that I realized I had come to that place.  He has suggested it before, and I would do it for 24- 48 hours and then respond.  This time, I FEEL different.  I am disappointed in the situation, very sad and humbled that I can’t figure out an alternate path that works.  But I know I have tried.  I have tried validation, I have tried SETT, I don’t JADE, I do reflective listening, I grey rock, and I set /maintain boundaries.  She does not respect my boundaries. You are right, I have been experiencing anticipatory grieving of both my sister and my mother for a few years.  It is not easy.  Thanks to your advice I have the lawyer in place, and can handle the trust things through her.  It is worth the money. 

NW, like you, when the question of LC vs NC comes up on this board, I usually encourage LC as a middle ground because I fully understand the consequences and challenges of NC.  I feel comfortable with and familiar with LC and have made it work for me.  It is a great option until it isn’t.   I kept thinking my biggest personal opportunity was maintaining boundaries with her, but yesterday was a moment where my thinking changed.  I realized that the problem wasn’t me not having boundaries, it was she is incapable of respecting my boundaries. 

I thought I needed to maintain LC for my mom, but now that hospice and the facility face time and update my sister, its not necessary. If she comes to visit, they  will let me know and I can do my best to avoid her.  She never comes more than 2-3 days and I can handle it if we run into each other.  As Zachira says, the lawyers can handle the trust.  My nephew is 20, and I will continue to send him bday and Christmas gifts, and maybe some day we can have a relationship separate from her.  My daughter and husband want nothing to do with her.  My son will likely maintain a relationship with her, but it will be separate from me, and I respect that and hope it works for them. The more distant relatives that are still alive likely won’t get involved. The advantages of a small family. 

Not sure if I have shared this Brene Brown quote , but it is a source of validation for me and hopefully for some of you. What do people who consistently extend an assumption of generosity towards others share in common? They have a disciplined practice of setting, maintaining and respecting boundaries. We can’t assume the best about others when they are taking advantage of us or not respecting what  is important to us.

I assume the best in others including my sister, to a fault at times.  Her feelings matter, but mine matter more to me.  I  have learned that boundaries are about respecting ourselves and others. I am at a point now where I have to prioritize  my emotions and feelings.  I just became an empty nester, I am transitioning to retirement, and I am grieving the impending loss of my mother and sister.

I am making no announcement or proclamation. Therefore it is reversible.   Who knows it might be only 48-72 hours.  My therapist assured me that I didn’t need to decide that now and to keep reassessing my feelings to guide me.  I have gone as long as a week without contact with her.   But there is a likelihood based on what I am feeling right now, that this LC will transition to NC.   

Thank you for helping me process it, the advice and the support.  Love it! (click to insert in post)


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zachira
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2023, 11:31:22 AM »

Mommydoc,
Thank you for all your kindness and empathy in understanding my situation with my sister and my family. It means a lot that you and others here value me as a person, and it helps to undo the family narrative that I am a worthless human being, which really translates to that most of my family members cannot face their own flaws and feelings, and need someone to scapegoat/to blame.
You are also dealing with the fact that true NC can not be completely achieved when there are legal, financial, and family involved. I do think it can be empowering to say you are NC because it reinforces your determination to maintain your boundaries and have as little contact as possible with your sister. You have a really sound plan in place if your sister does decide to visit your mother.
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2023, 11:37:36 AM »

I didn’t go into depth but what triggered my sister yesterday, is my upcoming vacation.  Same thing that triggered her in December.  


Me taking vacation = “abandoning mom”= “she has to come out”= “financial impact to her” = “me persecuting her”.

She  revised the story to “you decided to go on vacation on 12/24, made me drop everything to come out again, and didn’t even offer me FF miles”.

 She has being using “planning for your vacation” as the newest reason to meet with increasing urgency as we get closer.  I have not agreed to meeting, and kept saying “ you don’t need to come, but you are welcome to come”.  
The same thinking “ Me taking vacation = “abandoning mom”= “she has to come out”= “financial impact to her” = “me persecuting her”.

my plan for who will be responsible for mom” and told me I was not allowed to make this decision without her as “ co-trustee”

 it took a day for my sister to get out there and a few days for me to get back.  her.  I feel bad about it all.





Again, what I read into these responses is not that you have abandoned your mother, or her, but that if she needs to come see mother, this will financially impact her. I think her financial situation is probably more hanging on a thread for her than you are aware of. This can be independent from income. My mother is an example of this, even though she has had even generous income by most people's standards due to the emotional issues with spending money that can be connected with BPD.

If your sister is already on the edge, income wise- the cost of a trip could be an issue for her. I think the urgent need for her to meet is to discuss financing her trip if she needs to come. The statement " you didn't even give me FF miles" is one of entitlement. She sees you as having the larger income and feels you should pay for her travel. Truly, her income issues are not her responsibility and she does not have to come, but for her to feel she's also in the position of "caring for mother" she needs to do that.

On your part, you may feel things are fair between you. You are not obligated to cover her expenses for travel. PwBPD have a skewed sense of fairness. When someone is in victim perspective, the situation is unfair to them, even if it is fair. That is not your responsibility. However, no matter how the finances are arranged- your sister will likely perceive them as unfair.

I think income discrepancies between siblings are more common than not. I think in the absence of major dysfunction ( I think there is some in all families) the siblings' contributions are not even but each hopefully does what they can. I have also seen where this situation leads to some major family divisions over who is doing what.

My take is that when you are there, she isn't feeling that she may need to come there on an urgent basis- and she does not have the money to do that. On top of that, not having the money could also be embarrassing for her and create a sense of shame- and all that is projected at you, because she sees your decision to go out of town as the cause of this, not her own financial/emotional issues.

You didn't cause her issues, you are not responsible for them, and you CAN make your own travel decisions.

I think NC is a feasible choice for you if you wish to choose it. Your sister is not on her own. She has her own family. She is not your parent. You have no obligation to her.

For me, the decision was different due to the relationship- parent, not sibling, age of parent, and her being on her own. I wasn't trying to be the "good person" here- and it wasn't even about her but what I felt I could manage within my own value system. The decision was based on different factors than you have with your sister.

I wonder if the trust can be arranged so that your sister has an advance or fast reimbursement for her travel expenses should she come visit your mother. It may not be "fair" in the long run but more about each person receiving what they would need in order to be there with your mother if needed. Your sister may not ever see any arrangement as fair. I think that financial concerns are driving her behavior. Again, not your problem to solve, but a possible way to tone down drama during this difficult time. You can still go NC on your end and have her communicate with lawyer/accountant, show receipts for travel to them etc.
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2023, 02:52:54 PM »

Well, of course your sister was going to flip her lid over your vacation — I would have been shocked if she hadn’t.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

That being said, it’s totally reasonable for you to block her until her rage subsides, which I imagine won’t happen until you get back from your trip.

If she wants to throw a tantrum over this, that’s entirely up to her, and there is nothing you can do to talk her out of it. It sucks when people are unjustifiably angry at us, but at the end of the day, people have a right to their feelings no matter how irrational they may be. She can have her upset and you can still enjoy your trip. 

It really sounds like your mother is in good hands and that you can get back home quickly if the need arises, so you can enjoy your vacation with a clear conscience. I don’t see any need for any further discussion with your sister about this.

I hope you enjoy your trip! 
 
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2023, 03:55:03 PM »

Thank you Couscous, NotWendy, and Zachira for the validation on my plan! 

Excerpt
You didn't cause her issues, you are not responsible for them, and you CAN make your own travel decisions

Yes! Thank you so much NW.   Regarding the money, the Trust gifted her and her son a sizable amount in December, which is way more than enough to cover her recent expenses and could easily more than cover another trip.   But of course it is likely going to her personal financial needs. And I agree her perception of the disparity in our financial situations is that it is unfair and my fault.  But it isn’t.  I find solace in knowing that the issue is not the issue, thank you for always helping me see that.  I am fine with the trust paying for her travel expenses and wouldn’t make an issue of that if she asks for that.  But again that is not the real issue.  I suspect part of the reason she wants to meet is to bring up gifting for 2023.   I will agree to it, but don’t want to discuss it with her….if it is that important to her, she can engage her lawyer. 

Excerpt
You are also dealing with the fact that true NC can not be completely achieved when there are legal, financial, and family involved. I do think it can be empowering to say you are NC because it reinforces your determination to maintain your boundaries and have as little contact as possible with your sister. You have a really sound plan in place if your sister does decide to visit your mother.

Thank you for your continued guidance Zachira.  I know I have made many mistakes along this journey but I am confident of my plan and need to maintain boundaries. And so grateful to follow you as you truly have walked in my shoes. 

Excerpt
It sucks when people are unjustifiably angry at us, but at the end of the day, people have a right to their feelings no matter how irrational they may be. She can have her upset and you can still enjoy your trip. 

Thanks Couscous. I am really looking forward to my trip and have let go of any concern about what my sister will or won’t do related to it.   

Feeling peaceful, free and hopeful! 


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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2023, 04:35:13 PM »

Hi MommyDoc !

Goodness, she really was triggered!

LC, NC... It is such a personal decision, and one each and every single one of us has to make for themselves. If NC is what feels right right now, then it must be it for you right now. You do deserve some vacations, and to be at peace with it. I am sure your mother would be happy and glad to know her daughter knows how to self-care properly, and I am sure she would wish for you a nice travel and some well deserved me time.

Your sister truly needs to feel in control, and I think this would be what I'd have the most issue with. The emotional dysregulation is one thing, but having a dysregulated person meddling in our affairs and telling us what we can and cannot do. Thanks, but no thanks.

I think blocking her was the right call on this one. Sometimes, saying nothing means more than saying something. You deserve a break, you really tried your best to make it work with her.  Maybe some day you will go back to LC, life might being that for you, but not now. Now you deserve some well deserved vacations and peace of mind.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Enjoy the break, and enjoy your trip !
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