Could it have been me all along?

[PDQuick]

I know this wont be popular, but, I cant help but wonder in light of what I have learned about myself recently, I wonder if it could have been me that was the main problem in this relationship. I was always working, never had alot of time to spend at home with the family. She has always said that I drove her away. I made her lonely and vulnerable to other men. She said that I was not there emotionally. Could she be right? Have any of you ever sought out someone because you were lonely in your relationship? She said that she always felt second to everything else.

I know you guys werent there for the relationship, but could her feelings be real? In a normal way? I know that work-a-holics are hard to live with, but could any of this be true? I have to own my part of the dysfunction, so I am trying to understand her complaints, and reasons. I would appreciate any insight from the ladies especially. What if your husband wasnt home alot, and did not attend most of the childrens games and stuff like that? Would you feel lonely, and if so, would it be lonely enough to make you vulnerable to other men?

[Cyndi]

Sorry to butst your bubble PD, but if that were my situation another man would not be the answer.

Why in the world do some people think going out and sleeping with someone else is the answer to all their problems?  I just don't understand this line of thinking.  How would that solve anything?

I would try to work it out, try to talk and come up with solutions to the problems, not create new ones.


Would have to be comprimise, two healthy people are able to do that.

Why do we even bother having wedding vows anymore?  Nobody even hears them when they recite them.  Maybe they are outdated and need to be changed?

No, it was not your fault.  It there was a problem, she should have discussed it with you and you could have tried to remedy the problem.  Being unfaithful is never the solution to a problem

[elphaba]

All relationships are work PD...and we are each responsible for all of our 50%...

I don't know everything about your relationship, but, I would doubt that you were the "MAIN" problem, your working alot was not the "MAIN" problem...the "MAIN" problem was that you were with a disordered SO...

But, to answer your question:  :)B was rarely around (either not home, in the basement or otherwise "unavailable", and this situation was not that he worked so much (which I would have understood) it was him spending time with music, friends, partying...and still it did not make me run into the arms of another.and yes, it may have made me feel lonely at times, but, I would NEVER have considered turning to other men...because I loved HIM...and I was committed to the relationship.

In my case DB would say I drove him away as well: by asking too much of him (asked NOTHING), not giving him enough freedom (spent thousands on a music studio in the house, quit his job, quit contributing to the household, spent 4-5 nights a week out with friends/music), the stress of him not being an "equal" parent (he only parented when it suited his needs)...in his mind are all the wrongs I have committed...

There was a poem I posted on here a long time ago...telling DB that I was his biggest fan...when I gave it to him, I told him that I did not even need to be the most important thing in his life, I knew that music was...I just wanted to be as important as one song...he could not even do that...

Do I still blame myself for everything failing, yeah...a bit...but, I also know that I could have continued giving 10000% and so could you...it still would have never been enough...You could have spent every minute with her and the kids and it still would NOT have been good enough...they are bottomless pits of need...you could not have filled her...

Stop kicking yourself,  you have looked inward, faced your demons, admitted your part...more than she will ever do...

you are a wonderful guy and any woman who gets to know you and be part of your life, would consider herself lucky to have such a man.

[turtle]

Would you feel lonely, and if so, would it be lonely enough to make you vulnerable to other men?

PDQuick --  I think it is very important to assess what YOUR part was in your relationship with your x. And while there may be some validity to some of her complaints, you can NEVER forget what you were dealing with. Now, keeping the fact that your x is mentally ill in mind, I think it is valuable to look at your part so that you will know for future, HEALTHY relationships. 

To answer the above question, I would have to say yes!   My husband pretty much ignored me for 3-4 years before I got involved with jackass.  H stopped going to family events, would decide not to go to planned functions at the last minute, rarely asked me how I was doing or how my day was.  The only thing he would ever talk about was himself.  And...we hadn't had sex in years!  

When jackass came along, I was starved for some attention.  I got it alright and it nearly killed me.  My big mistake in my marriage was not saying directly to H --- "I feel that you are ignoring me. We need to find a solution to that problem because I am not happy."  Then...if he had no interest in finding a solution, I should've left the relationship instead of blowing it up with a bazooka!

It seems to me that in a healthy relationship things like attendance at children's games, work loads, outside friend and family obligations and so forth are probably discussed.  Perhaps realistic expectations are set and both parties understand what the perimeters of those expectations are.  That's just my guess.  I've never been in a healthy relationship so I don't really know how they work.  It sounds good in theory.

Turtle

[PDQuick]

Thanks for the quick replies. Lets turn the tides for once. It will help me out. Lets say that you dont know me. You are friends with my ex. She complains about me never being available, not putting her and the kids first, and yes, she talked to me about it, and I vowed to change, but didnt, would you understand her actions? I know that Im dealing with a BPD, but when is the line drawn between what is right and what is wrong for either the mentally healthy, or not. I am sure that I am not the most mentally healthy person, and I have done my wrongs, I am just trying to figure out if there is some validity in her complaints.

[elphaba]

Ok, I don't know you...

I would understand her complaints, probably even have some sympathy for the situation, but, as far as turning to other men while in a committed relationship...nope, no way, no how.  The choice there is to either continue to try to work at it together, or end the relationship...I guess I just don't understand "cheating". 

It is not like you were out partying ... you were working ... geez...

Plus, as much as you want to you cannot discount the BPD...it makes any relationship almost impossible...You CAN'T just not factor that in...it affects any/all parts of a relationship.

[spamlady]

Well, PD, I know a lot of women who complain that their husbands are NEVER available to participate in family stuff, but their answer to the problem is not infidelity. That never solves the problem.

It seems to me that you're trying to lay blame here--all the blame...hence your thread title. You've previously figured the blame was all hers. Now, with your new insights, you're wondering if the blame was all yours.

As elphie said, your MAIN problem was probably her mental illness. But you probably had a host of MINOR problems, too--some of them hers and others yours.

Why are you wondering this? Are you thinking about seeing if she wants to get back together? I mean, if the fault was all yours, then you could do better, try harder, be a better partner. Hope you're not even considering this, PD.

If you're wondering for the sake of your future relationships and future happiness, then good for you. To me, it seems that the big question is why you pursued involvement with a mentally disordered lady. Figure that one out, and you'll be ready to move forward with a healthy life.

Hugs,

spam

[csandra]

Wait just a minute.  Ok, you wonder if your actions could have damaged the relationship, drove her away.  The flip side is that if you WOULD have been around more, attended events, paid more attention to her that your relationship would have been salvaged. 

Knowing what we know of her, which of course is what you tell us but hey, no one could make up all that stuff...    Once again, back to the "if only I would have tried harder, made her feel better about herself".  Now, picture yourself doing all of those things...is she really more happy, is she appreciative, is she giving you what YOU need, asking what YOU want ?

Now, ask yourself did you really WANT to be home with her, going to events, sharing her version of life ?  Staying when we should have left, staying when WE were unhappy, yet settling for less...that is where we need to take blame.  It was more comfortable for us to accept second best because that is all we thought we deserved, that is all we knew.

If you were so noncommital, aloof, not involved...do you think your girls would be coming around ?  You were certainly meeting someone's needs.

We ALL could have done better in our past relationship.  There are things that we should make amends for/own up to, if possible, but that doesn't mean that the relationship failed because of our action. It takes two and they let go of the rope(or maybe never had it) long before we did.  Believe it, it's true.

[sucker_no_more]

PDQ, there may well be some validity in her complaints.  If I can give an example from my own life, my ex had two big and recurring complaints about me - one, I didn't do as much housework as she did, and two, I was often quite moody.  You know what?  Both of those issues are accurate.  I really didn't do as much housework as she did.  There are several reasons/excuses for that, some of them good, some (in hindsight) pretty poor.  Similarly, I was also quite "moody".  I had depression for a while, something she's never forgiven me for (as if I did it on purpose...  : ) and I wasn't a bundle of laughs during that period.  Other times, I was often simply desperately unhappy, confused, beaten down and/or just keeping my mouth shut to avoid triggering another rage.

Neither of those things am I particularly proud of and neither of them are mistakes I'm going to make again.  But you know what?  Neither of them justifies or excuses how she treated me.  Moreover, I noticed something about how and when she would raise these complaints.  If she was drunk and acting BPD-like then she'd just tear into me for being generally useless and worthless.  She'd fling anything she could think of at me.  Following morning, when I would complain about how she'd treated me, that was when I got the complaints about me not doing enough housework and being moody.  I could be wrong but I think what was going on was that I would raise a valid complaint about her behaviour while drunk, she'd feel cornered, and so she'd drag out the old "You're lazy and moody" complaints about me to divert the argument away from what she had done and, instead, get me on the defensive.  So we'd spend five minutes with me telling her what I was unhappy about (without any validation whatsoever from her - usually she'd just stay completely silent) and then an hour of her telling me what she was unhappy about (with me either defending myself or apologising) and with the original complaint being swept under the carpet. 

One other interesting (to me) fact - I would periodically get my butt into gear and decide to seriously do some more housework.  Eg, I'd set aside an hour every evening to do stuff once the children were in bed.  I'd do that for a few nights, and then she'd pop up complaining that I was ignoring her and that she really didn't care about how much housework I did.  Or, I'd do something, and she'd then complain about how I'd done it, or how long it'd taken me to do, or when I'd started doing it, or what I should've been doing instead.  I really was darned if I did, and darned if I didn't.

I've no doubt that she genuinely wasn't impressed by my behaviour at times and there is a fair degree of justification for that.  In hindsight, I'm not impressed by my behaviour about certain things.  But I think those complaints were a lot more to do with creating a smoke-screen than with anything that really seriously bugged her.  It was almost like she needed to find something she could throw at me.  Her behaviour since we split is continuing in that vein, too.

I think my point here is that while I'd say it's well worth while finding your own place in what happened and coming to terms with the mistakes you made, this needs to be tempered by thoughts about how proportionate her reaction was to them.  I'd say it's also worth spending some time thinking about what you did right.

  SNM 

[PDQuick]

SNM, thank you for the slap into reality. You nailed it perfectly.

[eastmeetswest]

We should fall in love with the person without wanting to change.  Did you work hard before the relationship?  Were you driven before?  Did you always work long hours or did it change?  More importantly were you there emotionally?  Everyone has faults - were you a jackass?  Or, a regular, hardworking slog?

Many perople work hard for their dream and are supported by their partner - that's what helps to make them successful.  They aren't torn down at home for pursuing their dream.  Did Coretta Scott King dissuade her husband? 

And yep, the answer is never in the arms or bed of someone else.  That's their crap not your's.

When I was around more you know what, my x wasn't any happier.  She is ill.  She can't be happier.  It is not my fault.

[johnfl]

Quick,

I wish my ex was differnet too.  I really do.  The bottom line is that she didn't appreciate or respect me.  No one will ever be enough.  Every wall that is climbed over is followed by another wall and another and another. 

Time to cut the losses once and for all and move on.  I know its hard.  Second guessing is part of the pattern.

[crystal]

PD,

I'm sure you screwed up. I'm sure you could have been a better partner. I am sure didnt give her as much time as she wanted. 

That happens in every relationship.

But DO YOU REMEMBER HOW SHE TREATED YOU? 

[crystal]

WOOPS, HIT THE SEND TO SOON

I have read a lot of you posts, and I never read anything that sounded like respect, caring, giving, generosity from her.  She is mentally disordered. Period.  She is incapable of having a mature relationship.  Her personality disorder was the major, unfixable problem.

Why are you doubting this now?

Crystal

[Jewls]

I think my point here is that while I'd say it's well worth while finding your own place in what happened and coming to terms with the mistakes you made, this needs to be tempered by thoughts about how proportionate her reaction was to them.  I'd say it's also worth spending some time thinking about what you did right.

SNM, right on target.

Jewls

[sucker_no_more]

Quick,

I wish my ex was differnet too.  I really do.  The bottom line is that she didn't appreciate or respect me.  No one will ever be enough.  Every wall that is climbed over is followed by another wall and another and another. 

That rings so many bells for me it's untrue...  The feeling that, whatever I did, it was never enough, is something that defines my whole relationship with my ex.  Repeatedly she made me feel unworthy, useless, and downright abnormal.  Sure, there are bits of the "me" I was then that I have since changed but I really do feel that even if I'd realised that at the time and done something about it then she'd just come up with something new to slam me with.  I really do feel that she needed me to be imperfect so that she could use that as an excuse to divert attention away from her own faults.  And that, I think, is the defining difference between her and I.  I'll take criticism - particularly from someone I love - and I'll try to do something about it.  I don't always do a good job of dealing with it, but I do try.  By comparison, she'll regard any criticism as a personal attack and as such she will ALWAYS raise the stakes and attack back. 

In her case it's a family trait.  Watching her whole family together is an education in how dysfunctional families work.  Nobody's feelings about anything - no matter how raw - are sacrosanct, nothing is off-limits, and if you feel like you're being attacked then do not, under any circumstances whatsoever, show that you're hurt - instead, raise the stakes and attack back.  That really is how they interact.  And yet, according to my ex, that's how "normal" families work... 

I'll admit that my family isn't "normal" as (for various reasons) our interactions are skewed somewhat by an over-cautious approach to raising contentious subjects.  It's got healthier as we've all got older, but it's still there.  I could well accept that my family's interactions are at one end of the continuum of "nice vs nasty" and my ex's at the other.  Doesn't make either one right.  But at least my family doesn't leave people feeling wounded and resentful. 

  SNM

[gambaru]

I'm sorry, PDQuick, isn't this the same woman who demanded you buy her a $50,000 vehicle, a new house, a horse ranch...etc., etc., etc?  Did you not purchase vehicles for both of her children as well?

And you were supposed to provide all of these things, how, exactly?

By...oh...working insanely long hours, perhaps?

[garyw]

Your just now getting around to this part of the road

I for a long time thought the same. Tried to carry the whole load for all of what happened. As much as I tried some things just wouldn't fit in my pocket.

I was gone a lot of the time. Sometimes for a month at a time in another country.

If we convinced ourselves that it was all our fault,that would give us the closure we never got for sure but ya know what... If we did it all over again and changed the pants we wore then even a thousand times...the same darn thing would have happened.

Then we would be posting here that maybe if we werent around them so much...maybe we smothered them too much ...maybe maybe maybe maybe. :P

[blondie]

I cant think of a reason for infedility. Not one.

When you are married, you are commited and tied to that person. Period. You work for and protect that love, commitment, and what you equally share.

A husband working overtime is a husband trying to succeed and is making more money for the things you both want, need, or to save.

Bah on you being the cause of her infidelity. Just Bah.

If you had been spending that time in a bar, picking up other women, yeah, surely she would have had a reason to do what she did.

PDQ, dont blame yourself. Dont beat yourself up and try to continue to make excuses for her actions, please.

She is what she is. She did what is within symptoms of a BPD. You were just trying to make a better life for both of you.

And I'll bet she gladly spent the money you were making?

Hubby worked swing shift for a while. So did I. At one time there was a space of 7 days if we timed it just right we passed on the highway and could wave at eachother. Did either of us cheat? NO. We were working for us and the family. It was tough but we did it . We didnt cheat, we didnt love less, we took it as part of our job and what we had to do.

How shallow to blame the other for a reason for cheating. IMHO, there is none. Period.

Please, think more of yourself and use all you have learned.

Whatever excuses she needed she thought up and blamed you...lordy, you probably caused her hangnails and ingrown toenails, too.

Just dont accept the blame for this too. You didnt earn it.

Pat

[NewLifeforHGG]

I don't want to paint the picture that we are all angels here. We are all human and probably made some mistakes in our relationship.

BUT that does not justify mistreatment. Maybe you did work long hours but YOU WERE WORKING!

Did she not benefit from your working long hours? Did you spend all of your money on hookers and drugs? Did you leave her in the lap of poverty while you lived the high life?

NO.

Make no mistake they know how to twist a grain of truth into a bushel of crap.

fact-you worked long hours and maybe a little too much sometimes. OK. You learned from this and next time you won't.

fact-she slept with someone else because she wanted to. You can't drive a person into someone else's arms. They make the choice. She could have made many other choices. Marriage counseling around this issue. Separating saying she wasn't sure she could commit any longer. So many choices.

In a healthy relationship workaholic behaviors are an issue that can pose problems. It can be lonely to be left alone.

But in a healthy relationship people talk.

She has BPD so any reaction on her part was not going to be healthy.

I kissed another man during my marriage and it was wrong. But my H is abusive and mentally ill. I made the choice and I take full responsibility. This marriage made me more vulnerable certainly but I made the choice. Cap'n didn't drag me by gun point and force me to kiss this other man. Neither did you 'make' her do it.

BPs never take any responsibility for anything.

[LAPDR]

PD;

I believe you and I had a very common background with actions that our BPDxw’s did to us. Towards the end of the relationship and after it ended I also had periods of second thoughts about calling it quits, self doubts and questions if I had did everything I could of done to keep the marriage together and make it work. In looking back I did many of the things she demanded that I do to give her more time. I also worked long hours, traveled in my jobs at times and provided a good home for her and our children. I also coached baseball, attended all the kid’s soccer, basketball, track and band events, was chief maintenance man of the household and even became the cook and laundry chief too. It was never enough, I had to give up reading the newspaper, watching news on TV, give up my friends, remove myself from community social organizations and even isolate myself from my own family to pamper her needs. The reward was not her appreciation of what I kept changing and doing for her was her taking more time away from home to be with her so call friends, mostly other men. Her selfish needs were more important to her than that of her family’s.

Today I know I didn’t make a mistake, I just saved myself. I would venture to say most people have after thoughts about if they tried hard enough and haven’t made a mistake. It’s just part of the journey and as soon as you get over the next hill you forget about it and know you are continuing forward for a better life for yourself.

Keep walking forward and don’t look back.

LA

[JoannaK]

Stop talking to her.  She screws with your head too much, PD.

[Modron]

PD, that is a great question. A great question not because answering it will solve anything, but because it puts the focus on the one thing you can do something about: you.

For me it raises another question, "How would I want to be if this was another woman in another time and place?"

Well now, more and more questions keep popping into my head, so I'm going to stop there for now.

Mod

[TonyC]

ok quick...

so you feel you worked to much supporting and making a living...so its your fault she sought comfort in another man...

you got to be kidding me...

there is two people in a realtionship... you agree that you two are exclusive .. or married...

its straight up cheating... or lack of effort to deal with the realities of someone trying to give someone a nice lifestyle...

mary used to say i worked to much...left her alone...yes 80 hrs a week , and everyone in my life was taken care of...but me...same for you...

mary did not work  1. she could not work with women

                           2. she was and still is seeking dissability for BPD

                                   from the state...

                            3. she did not want to

so she bartended two nights a week...in places i would never go to full blown sh*&holes...

but she had a car ... bills paid...and a life because i gave to her...

you and i should not take any responsiblity for feeling of not being available...

her choices are her choices ...

ok you worked too much... so its ok to go to another man?

we survived a full blown boredeline relationship... if that wasnt an excuse for goin to another woman ...there is none...

sure we have our short comings ...everyone does...

but we didnt run ...till it became sink or swim

im not  done... i need a cigarette..

i will be back

tony

[TonyC]

ok im back...

you used the word vunerable...

how that work...going on a 3 day buisness trip could leave her vunerable...would that be okay?

sorry its just not flyin quick...

a relationship is a relationship...lets turn this...

what did she do to make you more available... or have more time to donate to the family... she work ... , bust her ass to keep the money coming in?

and if she did...lets say she worked nights... would you now become vunerable to other woman when your sitting home?or would you have the house cleaned and the kids in bed when she got home?

i bet you  would have everything nice at home... while she worked

thats how its supposed to be mutual support... and understanding

for situations that arise...

sorry if im a little rough here , i will probably get a warning...

but we have travelled this mother fU*&ing road to long... to blame our selves...

i say ourselves because we travel this path together... i  can see you on the yellow brick road out of oz... right now im running back to get you...pick you up and carry you the rest of the way on my back if i have to... except im tired quick, real tired ...

tony

[bewildered2]

PDQuick,

Are you wondering what you did wrong or are you wondering if she is a Borderline?

Presumably you have read the DSM and she checks at least 5 of the criteria?

If so, then nothing you could have done would have saved the relationship.

Anything you did or would have done would have been insufficient.

Even if you had given up your job and spent all your time with her she still would have been unhappy, she still would have taken it out on you, and eventually she still would have gone off with someone else. She would just give different reasons for doing so.

Don't torture yourself with these questions. If she is a Borderline then it was doomed from the start.

B2

[turtle]

Even if you had given up your job and spent all your time with her she still would have been unhappy, she still would have taken it out on you, and eventually she still would have gone off with someone else. She would just give different reasons for doing so.

Don't torture yourself with these questions. If she is a Borderline then it was doomed from the start.

Exactly what he said.

PD -- you've got to give that little hamster in your head a rest! Let him off of that wheel for a minute. He's so tired, he's starting to make stuff up now.   

Turtle

[johnfl]

we have travelled this mother fU*&ing road to long...

AMEN.  I couldn't agree more. 

[crystal]

PD -- you've got to give that little hamster in your head a rest! Let him off of that wheel for a minute. He's so tired, he's starting to make stuff up now. 

double amen to that!

PD--you DO need a vacation from yourself. Just dont take HER along! 

I think TONYC has your plane ticket at the gift shop. 

Crys.

[friendofafriend]

Hi PDQ,

You've gotten some great insight from the other posters here...  I agree that you can't blame yourself for everything that went wrong in your relationship.  I also agree that the only person you can change is yourself, and that if you did make some mistakes during that relationship, you'll simply repeat those same mistakes in future relationships unless you do take an honest look inward and see what you could do differently next time.  We don't want to get into the same black and white thinking that our BPD partners fall into and say that EVERYTHING they have so say, every complaint they have about us, is a bunch of hooey.  There are often some nuggets of truth buried underneath all the chaos and hatred...  Don't take blame that doesn't belong to you - there's nothing to be gained from doing that.  But I do applaud you for trying to understand what role you may (or may not) have played in the negative dynamics that existed there.  That's a healthy and mature thing to do and will help you in future relationships...   

- Friend