Do they really not know?

[klacey3]

When my ex and I were still together he would say things about how I compulsively lie, make excuses to argue so I can cheat on him and say all I do is insult him and argue for no reason, use him for his money and am the most horrible selfish attention seeking person he has been with.

I was just curious wondering whether borderlines actually believe what they are saying?  Sometimes he would admit he said things he didnt mean because 'i hurt him so he wanted to hurt me' which implies he knows they werent true. He said to me after the breakup he was hurt to see the pictures on facebook I uploaded recently of my new boyfriend... But the only pictures I have put on facebook are a few group pictures of my friends bbq. I was only in one of the pictures where i was by myself. Does he really believe that somehow me posting pictures of a group of people at a bbq mean I have pictures of my new 'boyfriend' or is he trying to fish for knowledge? Surely its just not a done thing to lie to someone about what is on the other persons facebook?

Do borderlines really believe you are the awful things they say you are or is it manipulation/punishment thing? I dont understand how it is possible he sees me as an attention seeker to change my number and block contact with him and a compulsive liar for ending it when a year ago I told him I didnt want to leave him.

Also, do they really not know that they are in the wrong and are abusive? Or do they just like to pretend to be the vicitim?

[Popcorn71]

Do borderlines really believe you are the awful things they say you are or is it manipulation/punishment thing?

Also, do they really not know that they are in the wrong and are abusive? Or do they just like to pretend to be the vicitim?

From my experience with my BPDxh, I think it was manipulation.  He would say things like 'you sit around doing nothing all day' when it was due to him that I gave up my job.  He also accused me of not being able to love anybody, even my mother, during one rage he had in the middle of the night.  He denied remembering it.  I think there was some projection too because he cut his mother out of his life after a family row.  I think they say things to hurt and confuse you, so that you are more likely to go along with what they want.

I also believe that they know what they are doing.  My ex certainly knew what to say in order to hurt me.  Even when he was being nice, sometimes he would say something phrased in a pleasant way, that was actually very hurtful.  He knew this because when he gained my trust when we first met, he quickly got the info on all my deepest secrets and fears.  This was so he could use them against me later.

[klacey3]

Do borderlines really believe you are the awful things they say you are or is it manipulation/punishment thing?

Also, do they really not know that they are in the wrong and are abusive? Or do they just like to pretend to be the vicitim?

From my experience with my BPDxh, I think it was manipulation.  He would say things like 'you sit around doing nothing all day' when it was due to him that I gave up my job.  He also accused me of not being able to love anybody, even my mother, during one rage he had in the middle of the night.  He denied remembering it.  I think there was some projection too because he cut his mother out of his life after a family row.  I think they say things to hurt and confuse you, so that you are more likely to go along with what they want.

I also believe that they know what they are doing.  My ex certainly knew what to say in order to hurt me.  Even when he was being nice, sometimes he would say something phrased in a pleasant way, that was actually very hurtful.  He knew this because when he gained my trust when we first met, he quickly got the info on all my deepest secrets and fears.  This was so he could use them against me later.

Hi popcorn. Thanks for the response. So they know that they are abusive and in the wrong they just dont what to admit it and admit responsibility? Why do they think they really hate if they dont believe their own words? Eg. If he knows im not the bad things he calls me why does he say act like he hates me?

[Mutt]

Eg. If he knows im not the bad things he calls me why does he say act like he hates me?

It's splitting and having difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole and seeing you as "all good" or "all bad"

The pendulum swings the other way with idealization and devaluation.

Have there been periods where he has idealized you and said "all good" things about you?

[Lost Out]

They absolutely know!

A couple of examples.

After an incident in which my exBPDgf ruined a visit from my daughter for her birthday, she says to me. "Are you sorry you came back after that last incident?" Not sorry for ruining a trip or a visit from my daughter, am I sorry I got back with her after she ruined it.

One time we were in my car and she looks at me and says "just remember the good stuff". she knew there was the rage incidents, she even said "I can't stop." Of course later it was all my fault anyway.

[klacey3]

Eg. If he knows im not the bad things he calls me why does he say act like he hates me?

It's splitting and having difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole and seeing you as "all good" or "all bad"

The pendulum swings the other way with idealization and devaluation.

Have there been periods where he has idealized you and said "all good" things about you?

Yes there has been. I just dont understand. Sometimes he has said hurtful things and adnitted later he said it to hurt me and didnt mean it. Other times he will say other horrible things but its as if he believes it. But how could he see me as a compulsive liar when I havent told him lies?  He sent me a list of insults recently while also telling me he loves me and misses me.

When he says im the most horrible person ever and a liar etc and tells me he is hurt by the pictures of my 'new boyfriend' on facebook (there isnt any pictures that would suggest I am with someone) does he really believe it?

Does he know he is abusive and manipulative or does he think there is nothing wrong with his behaviour?

[Meadowslark]

They absolutely know.

Some examples:

My sister knew I was working towards X (what it was specifically is unimportant) for many years. I desperately wanted X and was working very hard to achieve it. After having a bad day, she came home and said, "If I had all the power in the world, I'd make it so you'd never achieve X. You can never have X. You don't deserve X." All of this she knew would push my buttons and upset me.

She called me one day, claiming she had some horrific brain/eye injury she blamed me for. She said, "I'm going to go blind and you did this on purpose. It's all your fault." because she knew I still felt guilt about what happened (at the time, I don't anymore) Part of the injury is true, but occurred more than 20 years ago. She was gunning for sympathy and knew which buttons to push.

I had insecurities about my body. She would say, "Gee Meadows, you're looking really fat today." or "You should shave, you look like a caveman."

The biggest thing was about my elderly cat. He's passed now, but when he was alive, she would berate me about him. She knew I loved that cat more than anything and it was another knife to twist. "You should take him in to get put-down so you can get a new cat. This one sucks." or "Your cat is retarded (her words) and he sucks. I hope he dies soon."

BPDsis absolutely knew everything she was saying. She'd twist things in such a way to maximize the pain caused, and then if you called her on it, she'd cry victim. She'd blame you for the things she said, even if you could prove she was wrong (like the supposed "horrific brain/eye injury", which I could prove was fabricated by her). So yes, I thoroughly believe they're fully aware of what they say. They have moments of clarity where they admit they said A, B or C just to hurt you, just like your ex did.

[Mutt]

When he says im the most horrible person ever and a liar etc and tells me he is hurt by the pictures of my 'new boyfriend' on facebook (there isnt any pictures that would suggest I am with someone) does he really believe it?

A pwBPD don't trust themselves and have difficulties trusting others. The behaviors can seem like manipulation.

He's mentally ill and BPD is ingrained in his personality, our personalities are a difficult thing to change. How he interprets and filters reality is very real to him, just like your reality is real to you, just as the next person interprets things differently than the next. Reality is open to debate. Emotions and feelings are real.

He is self critical, self loathes, insecure has feelings of low self worth and shame, projects negative feelings and actions on loved ones. The world is a scary place for a pwBPD, the person is emotionally distressed, have an unstable sense of self, disturbed identity, and need an emotional caretaker, this is how he survives.

[rotiroti]

My ex knew that something was wrong with her. After she would get angry at me she would often come back to me an apologize stating that "she is most impatient with people she is closest to" and that she was sorry for having hurt me.

[klacey3]

They absolutely know.

Some examples:

My sister knew I was working towards X (what it was specifically is unimportant) for many years. I desperately wanted X and was working very hard to achieve it. After having a bad day, she came home and said, "If I had all the power in the world, I'd make it so you'd never achieve X. You can never have X. You don't deserve X." All of this she knew would push my buttons and upset me.

She called me one day, claiming she had some horrific brain/eye injury she blamed me for. She said, "I'm going to go blind and you did this on purpose. It's all your fault." because she knew I still felt guilt about what happened (at the time, I don't anymore) Part of the injury is true, but occurred more than 20 years ago. She was gunning for sympathy and knew which buttons to push.

I had insecurities about my body. She would say, "Gee Meadows, you're looking really fat today." or "You should shave, you look like a caveman."

The biggest thing was about my elderly cat. He's passed now, but when he was alive, she would berate me about him. She knew I loved that cat more than anything and it was another knife to twist. "You should take him in to get put-down so you can get a new cat. This one sucks." or "Your cat is retarded (her words) and he sucks. I hope he dies soon."

BPDsis absolutely knew everything she was saying. She'd twist things in such a way to maximize the pain caused, and then if you called her on it, she'd cry victim. She'd blame you for the things she said, even if you could prove she was wrong (like the supposed "horrific brain/eye injury", which I could prove was fabricated by her). So yes, I thoroughly believe they're fully aware of what they say. They have moments of clarity where they admit they said A, B or C just to hurt you, just like your ex did.

Sorry to hear all that has happened to you. Must have been awful. Why do they play victim? Do they really believe they are victim or is that part just manipulation too because they feel justified to act the way they did and genuinly feel unfairly treated?

I just remembered something that makes me sad. He once said "I treated you like **** at the beginning of our relationship and I knew it, I had all the control but I am trying to be better"

"I could have been a better boyfriend, no question about it"

"I wouldnt have been suprised of you broke up with me last year because what I did was stupid"

But at other times he would say he was justified to act or say particular things and it was my fault for annoying him or hurting him first. So really he knows he isnt justified but is pretending he feels justified?

And to clarify they say hurtful things just to hurt/manipulate/control or do they also mean them/think its really true?

I cant work out when i get called a compulsive liar, horrible selfish gold digger whether he really believes it to be true...

[klacey3]

When he says im the most horrible person ever and a liar etc and tells me he is hurt by the pictures of my 'new boyfriend' on facebook (there isnt any pictures that would suggest I am with someone) does he really believe it?

A pwBPD don't trust themselves and have difficulties trusting others. The behaviors can seem like manipulation.

He's mentally ill and BPD is ingrained in his personality, our personalities are a difficult thing to change. How he interprets and filters reality is very real to him, just like your reality is real to you, just as the next person interprets things differently than the next. Reality is open to debate. Emotions and feelings are real.

He is self critical, self loathes, insecure has feelings of low self worth and shame, projects negative feelings and actions on loved ones. The world is a scary place for a pwBPD, the person is emotionally distressed, have an unstable sense of self, disturbed identity, and need an emotional caretaker, this is how he survives.

Thanks for the response Mutt. So what you are saying is that the insults etc he puts on me are what he truly believes rather than just hurtful comments he knows are untrue?

[misty_red]

Mine at least knew before painting me black. It was like a warning when she said "I hope you'll be able to hate me someday for doing all of these horrible things to you." She meant it in the most genuine way when she still cared for me, but she also knew that there would be a time when she would start doing these cruel things to me. When discarding me finally she justified her cruelty and no more "I hope you can hate me someday"-attitude was left.

[Mutt]

When he says im the most horrible person ever and a liar etc and tells me he is hurt by the pictures of my 'new boyfriend' on facebook (there isnt any pictures that would suggest I am with someone) does he really believe it?

A pwBPD don't trust themselves and have difficulties trusting others. The behaviors can seem like manipulation.

He's mentally ill and BPD is ingrained in his personality, our personalities are a difficult thing to change. How he interprets and filters reality is very real to him, just like your reality is real to you, just as the next person interprets things differently than the next. Reality is open to debate. Emotions and feelings are real.

He is self critical, self loathes, insecure has feelings of low self worth and shame, projects negative feelings and actions on loved ones. The world is a scary place for a pwBPD, the person is emotionally distressed, have an unstable sense of self, disturbed identity, and need an emotional caretaker, this is how he survives.

Thanks for the response Mutt. So what you are saying is that the insults etc he puts on me are what he truly believes rather than just hurtful comments he knows are untrue?

I think it's emotional immaturity klacey3. A characteristic of emotional immaturity is egocentricity which is self-centeredness and the person being incapable of criticizing themselves, has low self esteem and insensitive to others feelings.

My ex wife feels more negative feelings than positive feelings and I try to depersonalize her insults and tantrums because I understand that she has low self esteem and is emotionally immature. How would that feel like to have more negative than positive feelings day to day?

BPD BEHAVIORS: Emotional Immaturity

[LimboFL]

Thank goodness for Mutt in this conversation. Listen to him Kasey.

I will repeat something that I have said on this board many times, the hardest part of this disorder is that all of these varying emotions come out of the same person, with the same voice. We don't see a switch being flipped and the changes can be instantaneous. As people without a disorder like this it is almost impossible to compute. We are not capable of switching emotions like that. Sure we can go from happy to angry very quickly but we are still in the same reality. This, from my no professional estimation, is not the case with pwBPD. When they change emotions, they almost change reality. But more than anything it is not something that they can control. Think turrets but subtle!

My exBPDgf (and this crushed me) once came up to me one night, when my son was over and whispered in my ear, I just want you to know that my brain right now has a dislike for your son, I know it's wrong but I don't know what to do about it. I am sorry.

So maybe they are aware but this doesn't mean that they can control it. It's soul crushing and as Mutt said so much of it is borne of their own self loathing.

I write off some of the comments on the threads as people who have not spent the necessary time to truly understand this disorder but rather come here to vent. I am by no means an authority on this but I have spun this disorder around and looked at it from every conceivable angle. At the core of our evaluations has to be that our exBPD partners have suffered deeply in their lives, a great deal of which began from infancy. I still have deep anger that my ex threw away away our relationship but that anger is balanced with a highly empathetic appreciation for why it happened.

Just because it comes from the same face and voice that you recognize, does not mean that it came from the same source. This doesn't soften the blows that we took, but it can help us to slowly process the personal and hurtful attacks away, so that we don't allow them to make us feel like we were actually deserving of the treatment.

[apollotech]

A pwBPD don't trust themselves and have difficulties trusting others. The behaviors can seem like manipulation.

He's mentally ill and BPD is ingrained in his personality, our personalities are a difficult thing to change. How he interprets and filters reality is very real to him, just like your reality is real to you, just as the next person interprets things differently than the next. Reality is open to debate. Emotions and feelings are real.

He is self critical, self loathes, insecure has feelings of low self worth and shame, projects negative feelings and actions on loved ones. The world is a scary place for a pwBPD, the person is emotionally distressed, have an unstable sense of self, disturbed identity, and need an emotional caretaker, this is how he survives.

This ^^^^. Thanks Mutt. Think of it like this: your computer has a virus which runs in the background, making your computer do abnormal things. The computer is not "aware" (key word here) that it is infected with a virus (the virus is BPD in the case of a person afflicted with BPD); as a result, the computer interprets and executes the commands of the virus as normal (as self in the case of a pwBPD). A pwBPD cannot distinguish between the normal and abnormal; it is all self, all normal, therefore, all true. So yes, they truly can fully believe that you're the devil or a saint at the drop of a hat. The BPD (virus) running in the background paints you as the devil or the saint. The pwBPD is unaware of the BPD prompting the abnormal behavior/thoughts.

My BPDexgf is very highly intellectually intelligent. She is fully self-aware that she has issues, but she lacks the capacity to fragment herself, she cannot separate herself from the BPD. It is her.

[LimboFL]

Excellent analogy Apollo and my ex was exactly like yours, highly intellectual which only makes the whole thing that much more confounding but also that much more visceral, in terms of how powerful this disorder is. One of the aspects I loved most about my ex was how incredibly intelligent she is but this only made it that much harder to try to determine what behavior and actions were a result of the disorder and which were just the person.

Imagine living it from the inside?

[apollotech]

One of the aspects I loved most about my ex was how incredibly intelligent she is but this only made it that much harder to try to determine what behavior and actions were a result of the disorder and which were just the person.

Hi Limbo,

Yes, this definitely is confounding---where does the BPD end and the person begin? Unfortunately, I don't believe that the two can be separated. Since BPD cannot be cured, only treated, what has been done cannot be undone. There is no going back to baseline "normal."

In alignment with the topic of this thread, yes they believe; they create their own reality. A more relevant question is: is their any truth to their reality?

[greenmonkey]

My ex knew she was hurting me and yet she still carried on wanting to destroy me emotionally, psychologically in every way she could.

In one of our final conversations she told me I was wasting my time with her, and I would do better with someone else, she moved into the spare room due to "hot flushes" about 5-6 months prior - and wanted to be more than the "woman in the spare room" - but was not willing to put any effort into anything.

She also segregated the food in the fridge and cupboard - and then raged about it a few weeks later.

She knew there was something inherently wrong with her, and also knew it was more than depression which had apparently been diagnosed with.

Her reality was far removed from anything else as it was founded on pathological lies and her fantasy and her happy classy mother of the year Facebook.

I have reconciled myself that she has been "hardwired wrong" and yes it is very very sad but at the same time, her "wrong hardwiring" nearly destroyed me. I fell in love with a fake, a fraud, and when the mask fell it was not pleasant.

[antelope]

When my ex and I were still together he would say things about how I compulsively lie, make excuses to argue so I can cheat on him and say all I do is insult him and argue for no reason, use him for his money and am the most horrible selfish attention seeking person he has been with.

^^these are projections

mine did the same... .out of blue, she would accuse me of random things, which I found out at the end, were specifically about her

they know, and they even tell you!  we're just so gaslighted and mentally fried that we begin to see it as an attack of some very deluded person... .

the reality is that these projections are their way of releasing that inner turmoil: by dumping it onto us to deal with, for them

[LimboFL]

Apollo, there is plenty of reality built into our exes. I lived with mine for four years and a lot of what I was told was proven. She didn't have the patience or the energy to really front or even lie. Her MO was more like some of the things she did were no big deal. Why would I overreact to that? Her inability to see things from my perspective on often very hurtful matters. In some cases she felt completely justified, but as mentioned previously there were other times where she clearly felt deep remorse. As I have mentioned many times, if I had learned not to react, in any way to her behavior, my silence ended up leaving her with her own thoughts which often ended up with her apologizing. If I reacted negatively, the situation escalated and at that point it didn't matter what she had done, my reaction justified it. Mind bending!

[klacey3]

When my ex and I were still together he would say things about how I compulsively lie, make excuses to argue so I can cheat on him and say all I do is insult him and argue for no reason, use him for his money and am the most horrible selfish attention seeking person he has been with.

^^these are projections

mine did the same... .out of blue, she would accuse me of random things, which I found out at the end, were specifically about her

they know, and they even tell you!  we're just so gaslighted and mentally fried that we begin to see it as an attack of some very deluded person... .

the reality is that these projections are their way of releasing that inner turmoil: by dumping it onto us to deal with, for them

Thats an interesting thought... are they aware thats what they are doing though? Do THEY know that they are the things they project onto us and do they believe that we really are the things they say we are?

[rotiroti]

When my ex and I were still together he would say things about how I compulsively lie, make excuses to argue so I can cheat on him and say all I do is insult him and argue for no reason, use him for his money and am the most horrible selfish attention seeking person he has been with.

^^these are projections

mine did the same... .out of blue, she would accuse me of random things, which I found out at the end, were specifically about her

they know, and they even tell you!  we're just so gaslighted and mentally fried that we begin to see it as an attack of some very deluded person... .

the reality is that these projections are their way of releasing that inner turmoil: by dumping it onto us to deal with, for them

Thats an interesting thought... are they aware thats what they are doing though? Do THEY know that they are the things they project onto us and do they believe that we really are the things they say we are?

Generally... .no.

They are unable to deal with the negative emotions and project them onto others, so that others will process it for them.

[antelope]

When my ex and I were still together he would say things about how I compulsively lie, make excuses to argue so I can cheat on him and say all I do is insult him and argue for no reason, use him for his money and am the most horrible selfish attention seeking person he has been with.

^^these are projections

mine did the same... .out of blue, she would accuse me of random things, which I found out at the end, were specifically about her

they know, and they even tell you!  we're just so gaslighted and mentally fried that we begin to see it as an attack of some very deluded person... .

the reality is that these projections are their way of releasing that inner turmoil: by dumping it onto us to deal with, for them

Thats an interesting thought... are they aware thats what they are doing though? Do THEY know that they are the things they project onto us and do they believe that we really are the things they say we are?

Generally... .no.

They are unable to deal with the negative emotions and project them onto others, so that others will process it for them.

during a projection (aka passive-aggressive/subliminal admission of guilt), she had the dissociated stare... .what she was saying was the 100% truth, except for the pronouns being reversed... .

what I think they aren't aware of is how to handle that situation differently... .in other words, they have projected their perceived 'failures' for so long that it's practically an automatic act... .

the projections were done both to gauge my reaction to the accusation, as well as maybe to even see how you're supposed to respond to it... .

in the aftermath of the breakup, I realized the truth about SOO many things based on a careful inventory of all of her projections... .she told me so much about herself this way... .bizarre to say the least

[Indyan]

I am too struggling with this question since my ex has been making up allegations and tries to make me look like a violent and hysterical woman and mother.

I keep wondering whether he believes or not in this sh*t.

He really looks convinced when he talks, it's really freaky. Especially in front of authority.

He repeats that I am violent, that I tortured him psychologically and maybe physically when we lived together.

When he was the one raging and having crazy mood swings.

Maybe they believing or not depends on how delusionnal they are or not?

[klacey3]

This seems confusing :'/

Some of you are saying they are completely aware that way they are saying is nasty because they want to hurt others and that they know they are being manipulative. While others think that when they rage and insult they really believe what they are saying and are not aware that THEY are the things they say other people are... .

Maybe both? :-/

[SummerStorm]

The biggest thing was about my elderly cat. He's passed now, but when he was alive, she would berate me about him. She knew I loved that cat more than anything and it was another knife to twist. "You should take him in to get put-down so you can get a new cat. This one sucks." or "Your cat is retarded (her words) and he sucks. I hope he dies soon."

BPDsis absolutely knew everything she was saying. She'd twist things in such a way to maximize the pain caused, and then if you called her on it, she'd cry victim. She'd blame you for the things she said, even if you could prove she was wrong (like the supposed "horrific brain/eye injury", which I could prove was fabricated by her). So yes, I thoroughly believe they're fully aware of what they say. They have moments of clarity where they admit they said A, B or C just to hurt you, just like your ex did.

What is it about cats and pwBPD?  Mine was actually jealous of mine, I think.  She asked me to live with her because she needed a place to live.  I said, "I don't want to live in an apartment, and my cat Storm is sensitive to change." She called me a crazy cat lady.  She could never remember the names of any of my cats.  She called my Storm "the evil ginger cat" or "the cat without a soul" and would say, "None of your cats do anything.  They just sit around." Even the cats were supposed to focus all their attention on her, .

Yeah, mine admitted to a horrible lie that hurt me very deeply.  I asked her why she did it, and she said, "I don't know.  It seemed like a good idea at the time."

[Indyan]

Maybe it depends on the degree of madness? 

At this stage I can't tell if my ex knows or not that all he says is a pack of lies.

I actually just had an argument over the phone with my dad about this. My dad says I'm looking for excuses when I'm just trying to understand.

[SummerStorm]

This seems confusing :'/

Some of you are saying they are completely aware that way they are saying is nasty because they want to hurt others and that they know they are being manipulative. While others think that when they rage and insult they really believe what they are saying and are not aware that THEY are the things they say other people are... .

Maybe both? :-/

Pure projections I'm not sure about. I know I'm projecting when I do it.  It's a defense mechanism, and I'm mentally stable enough to realize that.  It happens a lot.  A closeted gay man who is ashamed of his sexuality may use the word "f****t" and rant about how gay marriage shouldn't be legal, to cover up his shame and to avoid others saying those things to him.  

pwBPD may know that they are doing it at times, but they also don't have a sense of self, so they have trouble seeing who they really are.  Mine used to say that she refuses to adult.  Then, she later told me that I'm still an awkward teenager stuck in an adult's body.  I'm really not (stable job, just bought a house, student loans and car paid off, great credit score), but she picked up random things, like the fact that I've never dated and was a virgin at 29, and used them against me.  Meanwhile, she is the one who has no job, keeps moving from place to place, never remembers to pay bills until the last second, plays video games all the time, and thinks YouTube celebrities are awesome.  Having sex with everyone in a 10-mile radius does not make someone an adult.

Some projections are based on a bit of truth, so that's how they justify them.  Mine told me I have no coping skills and that I watch fantasy shows to escape the pain of reality.  And it's true that I watch fantasy shows and am very emotional.  But she doesn't understand that normal people go through the stages of grief.  Where her statement becomes a projection is that I watch fantasy shows because they are cool and some of my favorite actors and actresses are on them, but she plays video games and loves Harry Potter because she wants to escape.  

There are just some lies and manipulations that have nothing to do with projection.  Mine knew exactly what she was doing.  She made up a lie in front of me and said, "Ok, if anyone asks, this is what we are going to tell them." Her lies were carefully and skillfully crafted.  She made safeguards in place for if something went wrong with her lies.

[rotiroti]

This seems confusing :'/

Some of you are saying they are completely aware that way they are saying is nasty because they want to hurt others and that they know they are being manipulative. While others think that when they rage and insult they really believe what they are saying and are not aware that THEY are the things they say other people are... .

Maybe both? :-/

I think bottom line is that they make for poor life partners

[Blimblam]

This seems confusing :'/

Some of you are saying they are completely aware that way they are saying is nasty because they want to hurt others and that they know they are being manipulative. While others think that when they rage and insult they really believe what they are saying and are not aware that THEY are the things they say other people are... .

Maybe both? :-/

manipulation is not always malicious and people do it all the time.  For example while we may rant and rave about manipulation here, in a different context lets say where  guys are talking about how to get a girl to like them etc. we may even add our 2 cents but the bottom line is they are essentially talking about manipulating some girl. Often times all the borderline is doing is trying to be accepted by others by doing the things others want them to do to be accepted except they will often go the extra mile to ensure an emotional attachment to secure that acceptance.  The amount of awareness will depend on the individual and the context of the situation within that moment.

[michel71]

Mine knows exactly what she is doing and saying and how it affects me. She has used every unkind word imaginable and expected me to just take it. She has no remorse for any of it, no matter how crazy or hurtful. She sees me as deserving of it and accuses me of doing the same thing to her ( which I clearly do NOT). Projections and gas lighting are her best weapons of manipulation and control. For several months I thought I was going crazy. Her reality is and has always been so much different than mine. Even when I read posts here about splitting, I think for the first two years of our relationship I was mostly white. After we got married I was quickly painted black and stayed shades of grey/black ever since. It is like I have been punished for marrying her.

She has never owned up to any hurt that she has caused me and sees herself as entitled. She has made up the most ridiculous fact patterns in her head, things that never occurred and always claims to know what I am thinking. Everything is drama. I am always accused of not loving her or not loving her enough.

She sees herself as PERFECT and me as a monster. Nice huh?

[Indyan]

It is like I have been punished for marrying her.

And me for having a baby with him   :'(