Sorry if I missed part of your story, but can you explain why they have to go to him if they don't want to? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're married and there's no separation or custody agreement, right?

Normalization is a description to consider.  We here are reasonably normal people.  We generally have a good perspective of life.  But due to our inclinations - perhaps due to influence in our childhood or prior relationships - we began accommodating others, even the poor behaviors.  The poor behavior became normalized to the extent we didn't see it as abnormal behavior.

My experience with bringing home flowers... My ex liked red roses.  One anniversary I brought beautiful color-speckled carnations because the roses on display were virtually wilted.  Contrary to your way of receiving a gift, she raged at me for not getting roses, cut the flowers off the stems and threw them all in the kitchen garbage.  Then she had *nothing*.  Ranting and raging is quite different from a subdued response!  I was getting "normalized" to unreasonable behavior.

No two people have identical responses.  We're not like robots on an assembly line expected to be identical.  Our differences can and should be invigorating and refreshing in most cases.  But when things get to extremes of behavior, that's when a person's traits can morph into a level of mental illness.  That too can vary from one person to the next.  It's not like they carry an ID card in their shirt pocket that states "I'm mentally ill".  That's where we need overall awareness, perspective and objectivity.  Yes, and we're here to get that education and insight.

Cross posted with Pook and I think we said the same thing. However, when it came to our basic needs as kids, I don't know if my BPD mother was capable of doing them. There's no way to know that as thankfully we were taken care of.

That's the main message. Not doing something may open up a possibility but it's not a guarantee. Enabling prevents change. But kids need to be fed regardless. The enabling I observed went beyond care for the kids.

I think you are correct in that we can not change another person. Where I think there's a  misunderstand is thinking that not doing something for someone will change them. That is not true. If someone told you that, it's not correct.

We can't change another person, we can only change ourselves. However, we do know that by doing something for another person that they can do themselves will prevent them from the possibility of learning. Not doing it won't ensure they learn but it doesn't prevent that possibility.

It's like an only chance action. It might work, it might not but to continue to enable, they are more likely not going to learn.

Truly though, the only reason to work on co-dependent behavior is that we improve ourselves through doing so, not about anyone else. I feel I got the benefit of doing that. This is because these behaviors don't really benefit us in the long run.

But like I said, I hit an emotional bottom. I just didn't want to continue enabling as I could see it was affecting me to take on people pleasing, walking on eggshells, and enabling.

 I didn't do it for anyone else. Interesting as I never heard about the idea of it fixing another person, as it was emphasized to not assume that or make it a reason for working on the behaviors. If I did mention anything like that, the sponsor turned it right back on me- we are working on you.

The kids' needs may complicate the situation, but again, it's about our own motives. If the kids need to be picked up, you are doing it for their needs. Maybe it's also enabling your wife too, but the kids welfare is the main priority here. That is not being co-dependent. Same with food, and other needs.

Your wife seems similar to my BPD mother. She really didn't do much and my father compensated for that when it came to our needs when we were younger. I don't think that was the main issue with the dynamics between them. It was more of an over focus on BPD mother, her feelings, her needs, and the walking on eggshells and compromising himself, his finances, and well being. While he also said he stayed for the kids- which I believe was true when we were younger, he stayed past that, and then the dynamic was between the two of them.

I don't believe divorce will change your wife either but that isn't the reason for choosing that, if you did choose that. It would be because it was the best situation for you, and then also for the kids. Why do I say that? Because you are the most emotionally stable parent and your own well being also impacts them too.

While I think custody is a concern, more for my father's era than now, I also saw how affected my BPD mother was. There was no way she could have functioned on her own, or as a parent. Any custody would have been not for long. I think there was real concern on his part for her.

I think my father established a situation similar to what you are doing and also this can persist for as long as you choose it to. That's really your choice and I understand it very well, and have a lot of empathy for your situation.

I completely disagree...enabling is not about her growing, it's about her being enabled to take six hour naps and ignore the kids because she knows you'll get them if she doesn't show.  The same goes for dinner, and holding a job, and everything else in her life.  If you're doing it for her, with her, in spite of her, etc, then you're enabling her to not do those things for herself or her family.

If you split up, she'll have to pay her own bills, make her own money, drive the kids to school and back, plus make her own meals.  If she doesn't do any of those things, she will not have custody of the kids.  And as others have said, maybe she gets alimony and/or child support.  That won't continue though if she can't function as an adult.  There are basic standards of care she must provide to be in compliance with the courts.

If you were to separate, she would have to make choices on her own.  Maybe she moves in with the girlfriend and just lives off her...that's the easy route for now.  But how long would that last?  My guess is that it would wear out fairly quick.  Eventually she would have to grow up.

You mentioned that if you don't cook dinner, she has trouble feeding herself.  Okay.  Eventually she will get hungry enough to get something to eat.

I'm not saying to end the marriage or stop doing things for her; I simply want you to see that she will not change as long as you're doing everything for her and she doesn't HAVE TO change.  The only way she changes is if there's something to gain, like getting something to eat or convincing the courts that she can pick up kids and feed them.

For a person without a PD, maybe this is true.  For my W, she was 37 when we met and she had a lifetime of bad decisions, getting fired from jobs, and failed relationships to learn from.  She never did, and I no longer have any expectation that she ever will.  Enabling only happens if my behavior has any effect on her ability to learn and grow.  She lacks that ability.  Cooking dinner for the family does not enable her to not cook dinner for herself.  She had difficulties feeding herself before we met and will have the same difficulties if we separate.  This lack of ability to care for herself is in no way caused by me or enabled by me because no matter what I do or don't do, the outcome is the same.  The reason to not cook dinner for the family would be to not expend my energy or resources to my own detriment.  Me providing a stable income and place to live is not enabling her not to work.  She couldn't hold a job before I met her, and she won't have a stable job if we split up. 

The relationship with the current GF will be no different than the relationship with me or the numerous relationships before me because she is incapable of learning, and incapable of the introspection it takes to learn.  Me sticking with the relationship for this long has not enabled her poor relationship skills.  Had things ended with me after a year, she would have jumped to the next relationship, and the one after that, and the one after that.... The only thing it has done is temporarily arrested her mal-adaptive coping strategies. 

This is my main issue with the idea of "codependency" because it implies "fixing".  One implication is that doing things for others prevents them from doing for themselves and they never learn.  The other implication is that choosing *not* to do these things will "fix" the problem.  This may be true with children, but not for other adults. 

The real issue is when you think your actions can change another person for better or for worse and you expect that change.  That's where I see the failure - too many people expecting someone to change if they change *their* behaviors.  That's a fool's bet.  Example:  Yesterday, W somehow "overslept" on a 6 hour midday nap and didn't pick the kids up from school on time.  Will she learn?  NOPE.  Will be calling to make sure she is awake change things?  NOPE.  But, I can choose to pick the kids up myself.  That's not doing things for her that she can do for herself, that's me making sure my kids don't have to wait in the office after school.  Even getting upset about it with her does me or the kids no good.  She's simply not capable of changing her behavior. 

I no longer have any expectation of my W changing, not matter what action I take.  Divorce?  she won't change.  It won't force her to be a more responsible mother.  Her having her own place won't change her.  Having a girlfriend won't change her.  Moving someplace else won't change her. 

In a sense, it is selfish on my part.  I recognize that my behaviors have no impact on her behavior positive or negative.  I'm only making decisions for me or the kids.  And right now, my decision to reduce my stress is remove all expectation of her being a kind partner or responsible mother.     Take care of myself.  And sometimes, that means doing things for her that a healthy adult can do for themselves.  Such as food.  Grocery shopping benefits me and the kids.  It also benefits her.  Some with doing the laundry.  Me doing the laundry could be seen as me enabling her.  But I am not going to avoid washing her clothes when I am washing the kids' clothes because it would not make me feel good about myself.  But the kids need clean clothes to wear, and right now W simply is not doing it. 

I've been in groups where for some people, little progress was made. Maybe it  was luck, because I met someone who sponsored me and it did help me improve- a "way out" is with our own behavior changes. She was actually tough- and turned the mirror on me sometimes. It wasn't comfortable. For FOO issues, we don't always see it, it's been our "normal". It helped to have someone do this. I don't know if you mainly went to meetings or did the one on one with a sponsor. Going to meetings only isn't as effective. I haven't met anyone quite like my sponsor since, and have been to meetings that didn't seem to help as much so it probably can vary from group to group.

I also agree with the frog in the pot/Stockholm concept as an aspect of the relationship. I think it is a double dynamic. The pwBPD's behaviors are reinforced by enabling, they don't progress and the behvaviors can increase. The "frog" gets accustomed to the temporary relief of appeasing and this is also reinforcing.

Since this is working for both of you, this pattern persists. The emotional "cost" of not appeasing, and dealing with the pwBPD's reaction is high- like your comparison of buying a new car. It's a lot up front, and so fixing the old one is more doable in the short run, but it may not run well for the long run.

For me at one point, during my father's illness, the situation with BPD mother escalated to the point where I could not go along with it and continue appeasing her. This shift in dynamics resulted in a huge reaction from her, and my father aligned with her. I did "hit bottom" to the point where I didn't care what label, or what advice from a therapist, I'd just do it, because I just didn't know what else to do.

Another motivation was seeing the long term outcome of these dynamics- the frog in the pot/Stockholm part, on both my parents. Dad just gave in. BPD mother was demanding and entitled.

I think though, every person's experience and perspective on these situations is different and that discussing it isn't the same as someone else's experience in real time. People make the choices that work for them. I can also see why for some people, the 12 step groups may not work. People from all walks of life come into them and it's a lay group. Perhaps I it was luck with the one I went to.

Well, the roller coaster has continued.  Last week we hit an all time "high", he took me out on a date and was the amazing man I know he can be (and in doing so, I learned a couple of things that he wants from me, like randomly just showing up at his house) and less than a week later we are at a low that is lower than the regular off day to day but not anything that I haven't seen lately, he is screaming at me, accusing me of having a million affairs, cornering our 2 younger kids to interrogate them about all of these supposed affairs and yelling at our 8 year old when he tells his dad that he (his dad) is lying and not telling the truth about mom, freaking out that our 8 year old has friends that he wants to hang out with (of course for this to happen I have to be having an affair with the dad right!), not allowing the babysitter to pick our 5 year old up from school as "he doesn't have enough time with her" (I have offered it before and in the past he said he was too busy at work to do so) even though the 5 year old wouldn't stop crying when he said that he was doing so, not believing me when our daughter had the stomach flu and came over maybe 8 hours after I told him she was sick and he insisted that they go out on a walk...our 8 year old son now has this and my uBPDh is home with him and I am so close to saying, "why don't you take him out on a walk, since you insisted that that was what would make our 5 year old feel better"...after she had thrown up for the last 10 hours...but I am trying with everything I have to not be vindictive.  I am struggling the most with how he is treating our younger 2 kids.  I know that this is an extinction burst because I have not let him get to me, I actually have been doing really well.  Kids are happy and busy, the kids and I have taken a couple of vacations just us, we are able to ignore his everyday crap, I have picked up work so that I am working just about full time (which was a complaint of his that he used to use often (now I'm sure it will be that I work too much)), I am doing well at taking care of the house pretty much all by myself, I am working out, my kids are pretty much killing it in school and sports, etc.  Essentially the kids and I are doing great...until he unleashes his furry and now he has all of us "walking on eggshells"!  But I don't want to any more!  I see how outrageous he is being, and so do my kids...I'm just not sure how to ignore it when it gets so over the top...and he won't leave my house or our kids!  I am trying to respond with love and ignore his crazy making texts and comments.  But...what do I do about my kids...when they tell me why they don't want to go over to dad's when he is acting like this and its because he interrogates them, yells at them and trys to get them to believe his crazy narrative, I feel like something needs to be done!  Is this something that I can take to a school counselor, or what do I do? 

She hasn't made any progress.  If anything, no progress means backwards progress.  I'm recognizing that with BPD, changing jobs, partners, hobbies, hair styles, or whatever is a means of remaining functional.  In W's past, she could change jobs, partners, friends, whatever and it was like starting new and she would be functional for a while.  Being with me for 13 years means she has alienated me, my family, and has basically made herself un-hirable in her profession due to reputation.

Your comment about Codependency is interesting.  Three are FOO issues at play here, but much of that is really only an issue because I am dealing with a pwBPD.  These issues don't show up elsewhere in my life.  I have been involved quite a bit with Alanon over the years, and nearly everyone there eventually concludes they are "co-dependent".  I disagree with this characterization as a vast oversimplification of complex and unique problems and is more likely that people who conclude this are looking for some kind of "diagnosis" or explanation or comfort.  My understanding is that the term stems from one therapist in relation to addiction situations to describe the role of the family.  It is often portrayed as being "addicted to the addict", hence the term implying that one is somehow dependent on the other person to function.  From my personal experience and from what I have learned from others claiming to be codependent, I think this is a poor characterization, because almost none of them want to "fix" anyone, and certainly don't welcome the drama.  I think the "frog in the boiling water" or stockholm syndrome are better descriptors here as most eventually recognize a problem, but the way out is unclear.  That's probably where FOO comes in - we make choices that are familiar or out of desperation or other basic emotion.  That is probably my issue here, too, that I make choices based upon what is familiar to me, or that is the easiest path at any given time. 

Example:  You have an old car with issues.  It needs new brakes and an alternator, but if those were fixed it could drive another year.  Really, you need a new car, but your bank account is empty and dealing with a car dealership and banks are stressful.  I feel my situation the past 13 years has been the same.  I recognize the problem but kept telling myself the problem was manageable.  Part of that is from my FOO with many family members dealing with difficult relationships, and part of that was my desire to have kids gave me more of an incentive to try.  The last 8 years has been me making decisions for the short term, over and over, and having the interests of the kids as a top priority.