FAQ: Did she ever love me? [romantic partners]

[BPDFamily.com]

Not even sure if you are still reading these responses, but I want to say a couple of things.  First, this is a really beautiful description.  I am a stepmom to kids with a BPDmom, and though I am clearly in a highly triggering role, I have been able in crisis to offer BPD mom unconditional love.  This has been profoundly effective in terms of diffusing crisis. 

I was also struck by how much BPDmom just desperately needed the love I was giving.  I am pretty good at giving love with boundaries.  It is sad for me that because of my role in her life, parenting her kids with her ex for half of the time,  she cannot really receive this from me, and  I do not really have the energy or desire to pursue this opportunity.  Because I think I would be good at it if she was just an acquaintance.  My father worked on a form of daily, interactive therapy with schizophrenic people that was very effective, and I often feel like a similar model would work well with BPD folk... .  but for BPD folk, it would just be being surrounded by people who are willing to be real and loving, with boundaries.  I feel like every time I did this with BPD mom, it was such a huge relief for her. 

The other thing I wanted to ask is that it is interesting the idea of the BPD person (in this case, your former self) feeling intense passion, because I have often been struck by the BPD mom of my SD's expression of passion that it seems very devoid of connection to feeling or physical embodiment, seems very much coming from the "head" rather than the "heart."  Also, seems very disempowered--lots of victimizing words, of self and others, without any real "feeling" statements.  Rarely does BPDmom say, "I am really angry right now!" or make a request; mostly it is "people hate me," in a non passionate, rambling, monologue that goes on and on, sometimes for 6-8 hours, blaming all in her vicinity for hating her, ruining her life, making her want to kill herself, etc.  When confronted, she does yell and say, "I hate you! See, this is what I mean!"  but still never talks about feelings like anger, fear, etc. 

So I am wondering if this resonates with your memory, and where the disconnect is between the "felt" experience of being passionate, and the external perception of lack of feeling or connecting with feeling. 

[ennie]

Not even sure if you are still reading these responses, but I want to say a couple of things.  First, this is a really beautiful description.  I am a stepmom to kids with a BPDmom, and though I am clearly in a highly triggering role, I have been able in crisis to offer BPD mom unconditional love.  This has been profoundly effective in terms of diffusing crisis. 

I was also struck by how much BPDmom just desperately needed the love I was giving.  I am pretty good at giving love with boundaries.  It is sad for me that because of my role in her life, parenting her kids with her ex for half of the time,  she cannot really receive this from me, and  I do not really have the energy or desire to pursue this opportunity.  Because I think I would be good at it if she was just an acquaintance.  My father worked on a form of daily, interactive therapy with schizophrenic people that was very effective, and I often feel like a similar model would work well with BPD folk... .  but for BPD folk, it would just be being surrounded by people who are willing to be real and loving, with boundaries.  I feel like every time I did this with BPD mom, it was such a huge relief for her. 

The other thing I wanted to ask is that it is interesting the idea of the BPD person (in this case, your former self) feeling intense passion, because I have often been struck by the BPD mom of my SD's expression of passion that it seems very devoid of connection to feeling or physical embodiment, seems very much coming from the "head" rather than the "heart."  Also, seems very disempowered--lots of victimizing words, of self and others, without any real "feeling" statements.  Rarely does BPDmom say, "I am really angry right now!" or make a request; mostly it is "people hate me," in a non passionate, rambling, monologue that goes on and on, sometimes for 6-8 hours, blaming all in her vicinity for hating her, ruining her life, making her want to kill herself, etc.  When confronted, she does yell and say, "I hate you! See, this is what I mean!"  but still never talks about feelings like anger, fear, etc. 

So I am wondering if this resonates with your memory, and where the disconnect is between the "felt" experience of being passionate, and the external perception of lack of feeling or connecting with feeling. 

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[oceanheart]

I am pretty good at giving love with boundaries... .   My father worked on a form of daily, interactive therapy with schizophrenic people that was very effective, and I often feel like a similar model would work well with BPD folk... .     but for BPD folk, it would just be being surrounded by people who are willing to be real and loving, with boundaries.  I feel like every time I did this with BPD mom, it was such a huge relief for her.

Exactly this! I hope you have found this helpful in dealing with your interactions with your pwBPD, especially since you being the stepmom to her kids must oftentimes be a fraught situation. 

The other thing I wanted to ask is that it is interesting the idea of the BPD person (in this case, your former self) feeling intense passion, because I have often been struck by the BPD mom of my SD's expression of passion that it seems very devoid of connection to feeling or physical embodiment, seems very much coming from the "head" rather than the "heart."  Also, seems very disempowered--lots of victimizing words, of self and others, without any real "feeling" statements.  Rarely does BPDmom say, "I am really angry right now!" or make a request; mostly it is "people hate me," in a non passionate, rambling, monologue that goes on and on, sometimes for 6-8 hours, blaming all in her vicinity for hating her, ruining her life, making her want to kill herself, etc.  When confronted, she does yell and say, "I hate you! See, this is what I mean!"  but still never talks about feelings like anger, fear, etc.

This is a very astute observation, ennie. I had to step away from the computer to fully process it, and I appreciate the chance it gave me for self-reflection (it's all about US for pwBPD   )

I won't go all abstract on the issue, but instead try to respond in a personal way.

Even at 42, with all my years of recovery work, I find it hard to simply say "I am really angry right now". This applies to all emotions, but especially with anger (partially because I am afraid of what I'm capable of when angry). In childhood, my expressions of emotion were ignored, belittled/mocked, and/or used against me, therefore "expressing emotion = unsafe". Passive expression became the only outlet, since emotions need to come out somehow, and thus the martyr/victim stance which is a protective reaction. My temperament leans towards shy so I became more of a waif/hermit pwBPD. Other people with more bold innate temperaments become Queen/witch pwBPD. Both are defensive strategies [not an excuse, just an explanation].

Thank you for the reminder that a huge aspect of healing is in asserting in an adult and respectful way one's emotional needs.

So I am wondering if this resonates with your memory, and where the disconnect is between the "felt" experience of being passionate, and the external perception of lack of feeling or connecting with feeling.

Back to the subject of the workshop - love - I do believe, especially with pwBPD who were victims of childhood sexual abuse, there is dissociation between the feeling and the expression of it. For CSA survivors it is absolutely a defense mechanism to having one's bodily integrity - one's very personhood - violated, this splitting-off of the self. Feelings are so intense they are painful and perhaps to lesson the impact of the feelings [also one of the reasons for self-injury] pwBPD verbally distance themselves from it? Could that be what you are perceiving? I'm not sure I fully answered your question, but I would value any other input.

[Findingmysong723]

Oceanheart,

I've been following your posts on here for awhile and appreciate all the insight that you bring to all of us on this forum! Thank you!

This topic always gets to me and I've been wondering this for awhile about my ex boyfriend (undiagnosed borderline.) It seems like most people on here have mentioned that their ex's told them they were in love with them all the time. My Ex boyfriend would tell me that he loved me as a person but hadn't fallen in love with me. He would tell me that I needed to give him "my heart." He told me that he wanted to fall in love with me so badly, but hadn't. Told me he hated wanting to feel something he didn't. We've been broken up for a few months now and I don't think he knows what or how to be in love.  Early on in our relationship he told me that he didn't think he had been in love really, maybe only with his first serious relationship. Also, early in the relationship he mentioned that he told me it took awhile for him to open up or something like that... .   red flag red flag! I admit that maybe we weren't right for each other, but it's hard to really fall in love with someone when they put you up on a pedestal that you never asked to be put on, just to be thrown off! A mix of push and pull, name calling, blowing up at you when he believes he isn't getting what you deserve, withdrawing affection, the depression, anxiety. I guess I rather have someone not lie to me about feelings they don't really have, but it also makes you feel pretty bad inside when all you did was try to love them the best you could. I guess I get confused why my relationship seemed so different. Almost like instead of telling me he was in love with me all the time, he made it seem like if I only I did this or that he would feel it. Hmm?

During a time in our relationship he wrote me a letter about him trying to figure out why he had been treating me the way he was and how to handle his frustration better. He admitted that he was stressed before he met me and as happy as he was to of met me, his stress got worse. My Ex told me about ways he thought would make him feel better which would make our relationship better and I believe that at that point he wanted to change! He had goals that he wanted for himself, like going back to school, but it seems like he gave up on it, he gave up on himself. Self sabotage, is a very sad thing! I'm not in contact with him so I don't know if he is going to do those things he said he wanted... .  

Just for more background on my ex. He is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, he also had an alcoholic father who was abusive when he was very young. My Ex has made amends with his Dad and has a decent relationship with him now, his dad has changed very much and we spent time with him on many occasions. However, there is animosity under the surface concerning his Dad with him and his immediate family. When I met my Ex Boyfriend he was in AA and therapy (just talk not specifically for Borderline traits) he stopped going to AA after we had been going out for a few months. Also, he stopped therapy because he was feeling "good," and only went back when we broke up the first time. Between the two, I wish he had continued to stay in therapy, I believe if he continued to go when he was feeling good, it would of helped him to understand how to work on keeping himself that way. (well most of the time, since we can't always be happy all the time) Also, my Ex was taking anxiety medication when we were dating and had slowly been decreasing the dosage and he was completely off his medication by the last months of our relationship... .   don't think it was the best thing. We dated about 17 months or so, still count when we "broke up," because he were still emotionally connected.

Well, now that I've bored you... .   ha. If you have any comments, I would appreciate!

[raindancer]

My pwBPD said an interesting thing to me today. "I love you... .  when I'm capable and I hate myself when I'm not."

Three years into this as of May 1st. We've been through many ups and downs - splitting. I've been his Goddess and his Medusa. I've been loved by him and hated by him; and gone through episodes where I'm expendible and other girls look like a good replacement.

Thank you for this thread. It explains a lot.

[ennie]

I won't go all abstract on the issue, but instead try to respond in a personal way.

Even at 42, with all my years of recovery work, I find it hard to simply say "I am really angry right now". This applies to all emotions, but especially with anger (partially because I am afraid of what I'm capable of when angry). In childhood, my expressions of emotion were ignored, belittled/mocked, and/or used against me, therefore "expressing emotion = unsafe". Passive expression became the only outlet, since emotions need to come out somehow, and thus the martyr/victim stance which is a protective reaction. My temperament leans towards shy so I became more of a waif/hermit pwBPD. Other people with more bold innate temperaments become Queen/witch pwBPD. Both are defensive strategies [not an excuse, just an explanation].

Oceanheart, I just want you to know I so appreciate you and your awareness and words.  I struggle wih these things as well, but do express these feelings.  Maybe this is not helpful across the internet... .  but your anger is okay with me.  Your awareness of the danger in your anger is also lovely.  I am okay with who you are.  Maybe that is not useful because I do not know you hardly at all, but I want you to know that.  I appreciate your insight into the disconnectedness, love, and other emotional experiences, not just your insight into the BPD perspective, but also your insight into the human perspective... .  meaning, I can relate!  Take care.  Thanks for the workshop. 

[LoneWolf768]

Ocean, a friend of mine said to me a few months back, "I think (BPD NAME) is in love with the idea of BEING in love but knows she'll never have the definition of true love. She'll never learn to trust anyone, she'll always abandon before she's abandoned, she'll never be happy with herself and therefore can't make anyone else happy because she can't make herself happy. She's what I call 'soul sick' and obviously needs psychological help."

The part that jumped out at me was when she said "I think she's in love with the idea of BEING in love". I think BPD'ers want to fall in love like the rest of us but have no concept of teamwork, trust and being team players. I mean, come on... . you can't possibly have a healthy, harmonious and happy union of two people when one is acting like a dictator and the other a peasant.

I really, really long for the day when I meet a woman who will meet me in the middle, meet me in her end and meet me in my end. In short, someone who will give balance to me as I will for her. I can honestly say I've never, ever met a woman who didn't try and control me or change me. (laughs) To be honest with you, I don't know what I would do or how I would act if I did meet that type of woman! I shouldn't laugh because I'm honestly worried I'm locked into this mindset that I need to fix the broken! 

Anyone else feel as though someone of healthy mind, heart and soul wouldn't be appealing to them too?   

[heartandwhole]

LoneWolf,

I relate!  Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be attracted to someone who wants to give me what I want and need.  I've had healthy and caring men in my life, luckily, so I do have some references to remember.  My stuff gets in the way.  For example, when a man tries to take care of me (something I always tell myself that I want) I start to feel controlled    I'd really, really, like to break through this pattern, and I think it may be happening, because I'm noticing that I'm *not* attracted to the type of man that I used to be attracted to.  But I'm sure there is more work to be done.

I have an audio book by a therapist/Buddhist practitioner Bruce Tift.  He said something about us reinforcing our paradigms and patterns because it justifies our own coping strategies that we don't want to let go.  That really resonated with me.

I do believe that these patterns can be transformed - and I think it's through acceptance.  Acceptance that our patterns may always be something that we deal with, and being willing to feel what that brings up in us.  

Just to add: a big thank you to oceanheart for this thread.  I am grateful for your honesty and generosity in sharing your experiences.  It has helped so much more than you know!  

[LoneWolf768]

LoneWolf,

I relate!  Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be attracted to someone who wants to give me what I want and need.  I've had healthy and caring men in my life, luckily, so I do have some references to remember.  My stuff gets in the way.  For example, when a man tries to take care of me (something I always tell myself that I want) I start to feel controlled    I'd really, really, like to break through this pattern, and I think it may be happening, because I'm noticing that I'm *not* attracted to the type of man that I used to be attracted to.  But I'm sure there is more work to be done.

I have an audio book by a therapist/Buddhist practitioner Bruce Tift.  He said something about us reinforcing our paradigms and patterns because it justifies our own coping strategies that we don't want to let go.  That really resonated with me.

I do believe that these patterns can be transformed - and I think it's through acceptance.  Acceptance that our patterns may always be something that we deal with, and being willing to feel what that brings up in us.  

Just to add: a big thank you to oceanheart for this thread.  I am grateful for your honesty and generosity in sharing your experiences.  It has helped so much more than you know!  

heartandwhole, I'm trying everyday to try and develop some new routine that will get me away from what I'm doing now because it seems like everything I do is keeping her in my mind. The radio, the weather, certain scents... . it's killing me.

I WANT to be attracted to an emotionally healthy woman who won't judge me, try and control me, try and isolate me from my friends and family, and won't find it amusing to toy with my head and heart.

5 years ago this past July, I really, really had my world rocked by a g/f of 10 years. I wrote about this on another board. Long story short, we weren't  'together' but still doing things i.e. going out to dinner, bars, movies, having sex... . and she was seeing another man behind my back, planning a wedding and everything. She didn't even have the decency to tell me about this guy. Her niece told me. I was utterly and completely pulverized. I didn't even want to wake up. I just didn't have the emotional stamina to want to fight through the cesspool of misery on an everyday basis. She displayed sociopathic skills, for sure.

This recent g/f is someone I met 4 years ago this past March. We talked for a a good 2 or 3 weeks before we met. IN hindsight, I was oblivious to words like 'mirroring' The first night we met... . let's just say something happened that I had no idea would happen (and it wasn't in her living room, put it that way).  It started to get too fast and I broke it off. Then the love bombing started: the 'I cant help I'm in love with you' and 'All I do id shed tears for you and you don't care' - stuff like that. We did manage to stay in touch since then. Not all the time but enough to stay social - and argue about her wanting to get back together with me, too.

Last Fall, she just seemed different. We talked more than usual; she wasn't pressing me for a relationship; she admitted she missed me and has always loved me since the day we met (which was something she professed to another man about a year later about the same length of time knowing him, too - and oddly enough, seduced him in the same manner as she did me) . I really started to let my guard down and take in the feelings and wow, did they make me dizzy! I was flying higher than I can remember. It was the greatest feeling I can remember feeling for someone. As the months went on, the BPD sings began presenting themselves and instead of getting out like I did 3 years prior, I stuck with her and her BS to show her I was a good man, that I as loyal and that this relationship was worth fighting for (only I did the bulk of the fighting for it). I felt like I was being toyed with, deceived, lied to and manipulated and did nothing to stop it. This is when the fighting, name calling (not just your average name calling - these were names meant to hurt someone REAL bad), accusations, personal insults and

then our apologies and the waters would be calm for a while.

Our relationship was ONLY 3 months and it's been every bit as difficult as the last one. I never knew what kind of a stonghold this woman had on me until she was gone and telling a mutual friend she wanted nothing to do with me. Hearing that she wanted nothing to do with me was a dagger to my heart. No one has ever told me or anyone else they wanted nothing to do with me. It killed my spirit and any little amount of self-confidence I had. I was and still am devastated. Then came the threats involving the police and the massive amount of F bombs in each threat. This was NOT the woman I thought I'd fallen for. This was, as someone else wrote on another board, a 'illusion'. The woman I fell in love with didn't exist. I'm 100% certain she told her friends the same thing about me: that I had finally revealed my true colors to her. Why? Because I defended myself against her personal attacks? Because I retaliated after hearing way too many personal attacks on my character? Because she accused me of things that I'd never dream of doing to you? I NEVER had it this bad with someone. Never fought as much as I did with her and certainly NEVER put up with the shift in personalities. I'll never understand... .

I was at my recent therapy session on June. One of the questions my 'What's difficult about dealing with this type of breakup compared to the breakup in 2008?' I told her 'The difficulty is starting all over again.' Knowing how bad thing got between us, how much anger and hated is coming from her, how much she despises me for the name calling and insults... . it hurts. It should ever have gotten that far. I acknowledged my part in the war; she did not nor will she ever. Does this make her right?

The relationship is beyond salvaging. It's too far gone and no amount of talking and apologies will bring her back into my life in any capacity. I've been living with that everyday for months now. Most days I'm kicking the crap out of myself for engaging in that sort of vile behavior with her, too. She could care less, was over me long before she broke it off and I'm sure I'm a forgotten man. Just a blip on her radar, just some guy, just some name - nobody special. This is also why I'll always maintain the she'll never, ever contact me for any reason. There is NO benefit for her to pop back in my life. Not to ask how I am, not to want to talk, nothing. Ex BPD'ers pop back in their ex'x lives? Not her. Never. I'm trying to cope with the aftermath of it all. And it's a pain I wished I'd never wish in anyone - except her so she could feel how I feel.

[maxen]

Here's an odd thought,

Maybe non's are drawn (and quartered) to BPD relationships because some of us deep down inside don't believe we deserve to be loved.  So when we meet someone who is emotionally unavailable (which produces a strong draw) yet who appears to shower us with love (at the onset), it's like a fantasy fulfillment.  The honeymoon (aka carrot) is the fantasy that we can eat our cake and still have it, but as the relationship metastasizes, what keeps us in is the reinforcement of our deeply unhealthy beliefs about ourselves (aka stick).

Schwing

what an excellent insight.

[Nicco]

Split from: Is there any sensitivity

The only thing I can add to this, is that during the honeymoon/idealization phase, the pwBPD is actually quite real in their expressions of love towards you.  The general consensus I've found here states they are in love with the idea of love.  :)uring this phase, they are.getting the fuel and feelings they associate with love.  What we call infatuation.

They simply live for the feelings of the moment being the facts of life.  Most people know that infatuation isn't sustainable, and leads to either mature love or acceptance of a fling that has run its course.  We move on.  pwBPD don't compute this notion of an evolution and growth from infatuation.  They are high on endorphins and oxytocin; they are addicts that want to hang on to the fix.  They love bomb you, because it is how they feel about you.  You overwhelm them, making them forget their flaws.  They want to express 'love' and bask in their happiness.

It isn't your fault they don't understand infatuation becomes something else; they are incapable of the next step.  The chemical bond masks fall off both parties, and the high is gone.  The devaluing then begins, because we failed to keep giving that rush of 'love'.  That is the illusion they wanted.  Not a mask, just a person addicted to the idea of love no human can sustain.  Just someone that wants to feel accepted. Intensity is their mantra.

Is exactly what i though often... .and sometimes told to her too,while she was in her "devaluation-berserk mode".

I'm tryng to get out from a recent break-up so sometimes i really "need" to think she was in love with me... .probably she was in love with her "idea of me" that's pretty different... .as soon as that idea of me begun to shows my "unpleasant sides" and issues, this perfect image that she had about me crashed... .and for sure this process it's been really painful for her too... .i tried in every way to explain and show that the person she fell so strongly in love with was always the same "me" ,i was "that" person and not someone else... .but like every person,with my issues and needs and sometimes "bad" behaviour too... .she always told me "i love you like you are"... .many times... .it's been true maybe,until she discovered that beyond her "knight,angel,soulmate,saviour etc etc" there was just another human being.

Point of no return.

[DreamFlyer99]

Just wow. I don't know how I missed seeing this workshop for the whole time I've been a member here. Guess I was just ready to see it.

Big thanks for Oceanheart opening up on the topic.

I noticed anomalies throughout the nearly 38 years I've been together with my husband (undiagnosed but lots of traits of BPD!) Things like the power struggle in so many areas, or the inability to get to the level we should be at by this long in a r/s. I had no idea what I was dealing with until the past few years as his rages have grown more frequent and I opened up to my therapist.

Now that I can look back I can see there have been multiple people with PDs in my life--mother, sister-in-law, mother-in-law, possibly stepdaughter, husband, husband's first wife (which all of course makes me wonder if my therapist is just being nice to me in saying I don't have BPD.) And looking at relationships with all of them I have to say that they have all loved in the best ways they knew how. But what do I know, I thought it was love when I was a child and sick and my mom would let me use a special blanket--not spend time with me, not hold me, but put a chair by the couch with a glass of water and let me use her special blanket. So i'm guessing i'm fairly impaired in recognizing true "love you for you" love.

The passion, the heat and cold of the pwBPD that I read about here really speaks to me, as does the need-based r/s. All those things explain pretty much my whole life... .

Thanks to all who participated in this workshop! It took me a while to get through it all but it was so worth it. And here's to my better-prepared next 60 years, just in case I live to 120!

dreamflyer99

[blackmirror]

This helps me put thart question to rest an reading other  peoples posts brought me to this.  If my BPD stbx wife was abused badly enough to change her brain development where it seems that everything we do has the opposite effect.  Than you have to apply that to her as well.  To her abuse is love.   Is that not confusing?  So never talking to youj again and letting go is the ultimate sacrifice.  If you had to do everything backwards would you not be extremely stressed out.  And it helps with whay she can sleep with people so easily and maybe not you.  It helps me to move on and not hate her.  And quit asking why.

[DreamFlyer99]

blackmirror,

it's so good to find a place to "put" our unanswerable questions, and to find some kind of peace with the situation.

[Green_eyes]

This workshop has been so incredibly helpful for me at such a difficult time in my life. Thank you to all who have taken the time to write their thoughtful "two cents." I truly appreciate it.

I am currently going through an incredibly heartbreaking break up with my exBpd fiancé. Now that there is actual distance between us due to a protection order I was forced to put into place, I have been seeing things more clearly at times and seeing the relationship for what is was. So,writes seeing things in a very black and white way helps me to process my grief in losing what I still feel is the love of my life who also happens to be the father of my 7 month old son.

Sometimes I wonder if he ever really loved me for ME? If he ever truly loved his son? I want to believe he didn't right now because it helps me to move forward and accept him for what he is.

That he cannot love anyone because he doesn't love himself.

I drift back and forth and go from aching for him to wishing we never met. I can't understand how he could simply up and leave the territory we live when he states that he "loves us and wants us to be a family again and that he misses his son so much it is killing him." The protection order never stopped him from seeing his son. It simply kept him from living in my home as I needed to ensure that my child be safe and secure here.

If he truly loved his child would he be able to simply walk away? Actually fly away on a plane?i remember him talking about our son and saying that he "loves him so much that he is terrified that something bad will happen to him." Bpd fear of abandonment at its finest. He often opened up to me about how he was so scared of me leaving him and that he knows that he "drains the life" out of people. He knows he has patterns and seems to want to change but gets stuck in the talking and never follows through in his actions.

I have done a lot of soul searching and see my own role in the relationship and how it felt good to be needed and be there for him and to stand by him no matter what because as he often said "we made the best team." I know that I have some issues with codependency, but I have never been in more of an abusive relationship in my life. I suppose I got addicted to the crumbs that were thrown in my direction, the glimpses of the man I fell for... .

He has been capable of being "selfless" for me at times when I have needed him but I find myself continuously questioning the validity of everything and wondering if it was all just one big lie.

I recognized that after the initial phase of all encompassing new love the cracks began to form and the downward spiral followed. Moving in together, having a child together, these were the two major life events that led to major unravelling. Despite it all I stood by him, went to therapy with him, and ultimately enabled him more.

Does it mean that someone loves you if they throw you a surprise birthday party? They get you flowers to cheer you up when they know you are down? They cook dinner for your entire smile? They care for you when you are sick and take you to the hospital? They pull it together to help you deliver your child even when you can see that the event is triggering major fear?

What about if the same person who did all these things also does things to deliberately push you away? To create arguments and drama? To project their issues onto you... .To physically abuse you when you are pregnant and when you are holding your baby? It sounds horrendous to imagine that these two people are the same... .

Facts and feelings are two distinct things. Words and actions are also two distinct things.

At times when I want to believe that his love was real I justify those terribly actions as being Bpd related and I find myself splitting my ex into the man I fell in love with and the man with BPD.

I want to believe that he loved me. That he loves my son. I want to believe that we were not props used to make him appear to have a full life and to have his needs met. I want to believe that our love wasn't about control.

We have been NC for a week now after not speaking for close to one month (the longest we have ever gone). The last message he wrote me was filled with anger over a silly misunderstanding and his final words were that he was "done with this." He has since contacted a mutual friend asking how his son and I are doing... .

Again, why? I don't understand. I can't keep trying to figure it out... .

He fooled me in the beginning because he told me about his BPD and stated he was in therapy and on medication. Unfortunately this was only partially true and his medication was taken sporadically and his therapy attendance only at times of crisis. Ultimately, his actions never matched his words and I can only look at his actions from this point forward in order to protect myself from further abuse and to ensure that my baby has a happy and stable life.

I suppose for me to love is to behave in ways that are ultimately loving. If there is no respect or consideration, (at least on somewhat constant basis) how can there be love?

I am left to flip flop from believing that he did love me/love us to feeling that if he ever truly cared how could he continue to behave in this fashion.

Did he ever love me? It's not my job to find out. It's not my burden to prove.

[HappyChappy]

Having read substantial amounts on NPD and BPD, the consensus I’ve found is that BPD cannot love others in the sense we would define love. Now I’ve read this often about NPD, but see many on this website state their was love from their mother. In my case there clearly wasn’t any love from my NPD bro and my BPD mom. My mom would often use the word, even talk about a thing called love, but I cannot recall a single action that irrefutably demonstrated love.

I read a thread where people agree their moms never showed empathy but did show love. Yet to me, you can’t have love for another without empathy for that other. Is this because of the spectrum that is BPD or is this just wishful thinking on our behalf ?

So I would be interested in knowing if anyone had found a reputable article that provided empirical proof that BPD love. I’ve found plenty that say NPD lack this. My sister’s view is that “all mothers love their kids.” period. Yet again, I have often read this is not the case.

Ironically I realise there was no love at a very early age (I’m the scape goat). I was convinced I was adopted (even hunted for my birth certificate which my BPD wouldn’t show me). Tried to take my life around age 10 and ran away from home age 12. You’d think by now I would have excepted it, but you always hold out hope. From the recommended reading I have, it seems to suggest that this hope, many not be helpful. It keeps you anchored to a BPD. It keeps you banging your head against a brick wall.

[lucyhoneychurch]

Hey Happy... .long time no see - hope you are carrying on all right

There is an American actor dearly beloved by many here in the States, Michael J Fox, who was dx'd with Parkinson's at a very young age, has allowed the public to share alot of his highs and lows... .his wife Tracey just incomparably beautiful and brave and they have four kids I believe - simply a remarkable family... .and he said this in a Rolling Stone mag interview I bought last year bec he was on the cover, he is sort of a touchstone of courage for me - integrity in the flesh - here it is:

"'My happiness grows in direct proportion to my acceptance, and in inverse proportion to my expectations."

Some personal moments recently for me - burned my late mother's death certificate on a pile of dried roses and lavender, just to send the final sorrow on its way of ... .never having had a mother. Not in the "mother" sense of things.

Made choices that were in my favor for once, like spending money on these nice guys mowing my huge lawn in spite of my idea that I'm not worth it - I simply couldn't keep up with it anymore and the lovely almost golf-links velvet of the lawn works in my head.   

Have cleared out of a very toxic relationship that I fell into way too soon after divorce, way too knowing better about this man - thinking I could prove him wrong that he was unloveable etc... .

Reading your post - what happens when you find irrefutable evidence that those dx'd or seemingly BPD'd "can love?" or cannot? and just how does anyone measure that worldwide? or in relation to our particular family member? it's empirically impossible, I'll safely bet.

If some divine being came down from wherever and told you yes or no about your own loved one, wouldn't you still be sifting through the flotsam and jetsam of having been reared by a troubled individual?

Expectations in light of Mr Fox's quote - you are hoping to read that somewhere out there people who demonstrate these traits CAN love or DO love.

Acceptance - there's no way to know... .or NO they cannot.

One seems to leave you dangling in extremis... .acceptance seems to just say, who could figure that out in cold hard scientifically certain terms? or... .no they can't, not like we needed them to.  Not like we would've dreamt and wished for.

Somewhere along the way, personally, something switched over inside of me about my mother's words of love but actions of harm and near malice. Even before she died. I accepted that nowhere in her mental nor emotional makeup was she able to demonstrate motherly qualities. But to see inside her head and heart and mind and say she didn't love or couldn't love, all I could ever come up with was my subjective certainty that none of it *felt like love* to me. Of that I was certain and could then make choices accordingly.

I'm just trying to encourage you, via Mr Fox's thoughts, who lives out every day overriding a body that wants to fight him and discourage him, that with or without proof that those with this disorder can or cannot "love," you're still in the same bind. Your mother in particular, out of all the other mothers on the planet, wasn't able to provide you with nurturing and care, and instead dished out the very opposite. As did mine.

Your last sentence is the problem - none of it keeps you banging your head against a wall, really... .you are banging your head against the wall because you are still dreaming you will get this answer. But what would it change?

I am in the same boat you're in, up a creek, no paddle, as the saying goes. But instead of fighting the current, let it just carry you downstream a bit until you bump into shore. If you see a waterfall ahead, jump and start swimming.   

Our shore is a place of acceptance. I never thought, not in a million years, that I would ever be able to look back at my past with the ambivalence I feel about it now. And that is with current upheavals with siblings' kids in contact for first time etc due to fallout of family stuff. So juggling how to interact yet not burden them with crap that has nothing to do with them. If I try to live with integrity, then baggage can't taint new connections.

Good luck on the possible resting and letting the load settle into the dust. That's where it belongs, not in your heart anymore.

Honestly, study that quote - I'm not kidding when I say it seems to have life breathing in and out of it because it's us ACON's in a nutshell.  You take good care. 

[Rifka]

Thank you all so much for this thread. It really helped clear up so much torment in my mind about understanding my exBPDbf. It was healing to hear the truth about how  a person with BPD processes love. It hurts to have it confirmed, but is always felt his love was not the same as my love. I feel ok knowing he gave the best he could possibly give. It was hell, with the I love you this month and then I'm not sure the next month then I love you the next. It was what it was. I am 7 days nc. No communication whatsoever and Sept 3 will be a month since we broke up for the last time. The end of recycling and my power back to take a stand and say no more!

I am so glad that I found this thread! It was tough to hear, but I needed the truth.

Thank you again!

[joshbjoshb]

And now, my turn to thank everyone who wrote on this thread.

Does my uBPD wife loves me?

To me, an answer like "she loves you the best way she knows" is the most true answer. It's instead of saying "no, she doesn't really loves you and only cares about herself".

In other words, you still say the same message, just you shift the blame from her to her situation.

Which is true, at least the way I see it.

Yet, it's very very difficult to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't really love you - based on what most people see love. It's like having to get used to eating with your hands when you learn about forks. It's like listening to kindergarten music after being exposed to adult music.

But that's life.

[borderdude]

Mine did a BIG effort to avoid abandonment , with acting, crying, was it out of love?, or just losing her supply , (she loves mirroring me), think she loves my personality , being a part of it.


Anyway , guess she did felt hurt by losing an object (me), but it is strange to say this , feel rude, are really like this ?

[molitor]

Hi everyone, I want to thank you in advance for reading my post. I have been separated for 2 months now from my BPD ex (I believe). I have found so much strength in reading these posts, and educating myself on this mental illness. I feel in SO MANY aspects, I could insert her name into the descriptions, and yet other descriptions make me question if Im reading into this? I decided to post my story, and very much so look forward to feedback, or anything honestly. Lonely phase in my life...  Ill keep this as short as possible.

  I met her in a work setting (5) years ago, she was married, yet we flirted. We became friends and within 2 years of knowing each other, were best friends. Flirting and such, but never crossed the line. I personally was dating, yet always thought how perfect she was to me. We grew into best friends about year 3, and she revealed to me how she had been wearing a mask, and was mentally abused by her husband, wanted out, etc. I cared for her so much that I encouraged her to tell her family and stood by her. Let her know that no one deserved that. I genuinely cared and had good intent. I started to see this hurt, desperate side of her I had never seen. Sad, depressed crying on the phone... such a bubbly person otherwise. Within a few months of knowing this, we started crossing the line with flirting. She would even come over to watch a movie and snuggle, but I admired her strength to not cheat even though she "hated him". About (6) months later, she moved to MN to be around her family for support to leave(supposedly). We were full out having an emotional affair, and sexting by the time she moved. I wrote her a letter stating that I loved her, I couldnt believe how much we connected, and that if she did divorce, I would be excited to pursue things.

   To sum up the next year and a half after she moved, we grew actually. It was an emotional affair, but we couldnt go more than 2 hours without talking, she would tell me "she loved me so much it hurt", basically VERY intense feelings for 18 months. So intense it made me believe I found the one, soul mates do exist, just everything I wanted in a woman. She would tell me the same, that it was so natural, and so right.

   Those were the highs of the roller coaster, however. She would go from picking out children names with me, to telling me her counselor said she shouldnt date after she divorces, and she wanted a hiatus... .no emotion, just cold. This hiatus would last a few days, a week sometimes, before she would want to hear something sexy, or break silence and jump right back in. I was on cloud nine again every time(15-20 times this happened) and so I told myself, she is trying to do the right thing. I felt disposable, confused, crossing oceans when she wouldnt jump puddles, but again told myself she loves me so much, she is just coming out of a divorce. We were ridiculously close, when in the high moments. Looking back, I think the hiatus' were the push/pull I read about?

   All the while, Im her set of ears when she was despairingly crying, he is mistreating her, "what if its her", etc.

I would console her, assure her no one deserves that, and she would tell me she didnt deserve me. I would have to convince her I lived her all the time, assure her I wouldnt leave her. The previously bubbly girl I knew, was replaced with an always sad, needing consoling, version. I again said it was due to the ending relationship, and thought "if I cant handle her at her worst, I dont deserve her at her best.

  Me and her would constantly talk about the house we wanted to build, parenting structure, marriage locations, just... .deep, intense talk for the better part of two years. I felt it was a match made in heaven.

  Finally, she hands him papers, and moves out. I start flying to see her in MN, and we are finally physical, and its amazing, making love, not just sex. We talk of my transition there, and are marching forward, telling each other we cant wait. She is still in the process of divorce(with boys in the mix) and so the desperate sobbing continues, just such a deep sorrow, hinting at suicide, disassociative even when crying. Side note: Looking back, she would go from so sad, to chipper and confident within a day or two, like nothing happened.

  My last trip there(5 months after her moving out) I was exhausted from the work week, and went to take a nap in the hotel before dinner. I heard her sobbing, and when I looked up, she was on the bathroom floor, sobbing. I went and consoled her, and after a few minutes, she got up and did her make up for dinner. She was fine for dinner, and said my napping reminded her of her ex not caring. I went with it and enjoyed our last night together. The next month after that trip was our last, but was full of love. I left my ring there, and she sent a pic of it around her neck saying " Im not giving it back until you replace it", we talked every day/ said I love you, skyped for hours, loving voicemails, she even went to a bbq and texted she cant wait to be introduced as my wife.

   So, here is our abrupt ending, that has left me in shambles... .About a month after my last visit(nothing wrong), she had her court date. She was awarded 50/50 custody in the meanwhile as the actual date was pushed back. She  was hysterical, everyone lied to her, the court was against her, it wasnt fair, and then proceeded to hint at suicide and hang up. She would say "make sure they know", click. She did this multiple times.  I admit, this is poor timing, but after years of this nonsense, I said youre being cynical, i want off this ride. I know thats terrible timing, but it was so bizarre to me, it was just a temporary hearing. I took a few days space, checked on her through her sister, and even said hi a few days later. Within a week, we were talking, and I said I was glad we were, she said she was too. We flirted and all seemed well. (2) days later, she completely was cold, and said she wanted to be platonic. She said her counselor told her she shouldnt date yet, etc. I noticed that same day she became friends with a guy she met at the bbq (the same bbq she told me she couldnt wait to be introduced as my wife) I asked her, and she said none of my business, that I had broke up with her when I said I wanted off the ride, that we had been bad for the last two months and the hotel was a bad sign to her of how I treated her. I tried being nice for a few days, and then she said she had a wall up against me that she wasnt even looking at. On FB, this guy was at a few events she was all the sudden, and again, none of my business, Im free to date, just cold, no emotion. Everything she said had a very punishing feel to it. I asked her sister, and she said she was known to be dramatic all her life, threatening suicide over bad grades in college. That opened my eyes... .

   I wrote her a few letters clarifying that after years of being there for her, feeling one sided, etc., I was burnt out, but it didnt mean I was giving up on us growing old like we had talked for so long. She never responded. I finally called after a week, and she said she is being cold, because she has (0) sh#*s to give. She said love like ours doesnt exist, and brought up one bad moment from when we first met (5) years ago. I asked her how could she not believe in what we shared for so long, and she said she didnt know what to believe, and that I was only there all those years to get with her. Just such a care free tone to her, shark eyes via phone if you will.

   I know "normal" women can leave abruptly, but this was cloud 9 to no emotions, punishing even. I told her to keep my ring as it had too much sentimental value, she insisted on sending back... just to toy with me?

  Its been two months and mutual friends told me her and the bbq guy are talking lovingly on FB, pics together, etc. Never a word from her.

  My mom is a psych nurse and introduced me to the term Borderline... Ive done so much research and reading, and believe her to be a high functioning, quiet/waif borderline. Its just hard to accept, we were best friends for years, and then so much more than I thought existed. To... .no closure, or empathy?

  Im a wreck still, cant understand it... Did I mess up in my frustrated comment? Was I used? I just want to believe its mental illness and use that as closure. Thank you all

[pest]

Hello,

Guys lets dont make drama here, I may understand 3 months of relationship but 1+ years of relationship beleiving that he/she didnt love you is just believing in drama. You cannot even stay with someone after one night stand and how come it is possible that you live 1 2 3 years.

Please keep in mind that they loved your, they did it truly with passion. However how easy they love how easy they kill the love. My ex she killed her ex love, and her ex bfs with me she did it. I was believing finally she saw the truth no she FINALLY DEVALUED THEM. I mean consumed it. The way they experience the love is different than us and they do suffer because of it too.

You are fool (me too, all of us unfortunately) to invest a lot it, just because almost we have no choice and non of us knew it before. Dont blame yourself, she wont come back even she comes she will come lots of guilt. She is not a devil but she is a child, love her like this and move on your life with a better women/men.

I dont say delete it completely some of them are really our soulmates, give them time they can date you can date and most probably you have a better chance to get someone you can date in more stable way. Even if you dont if you communicate with them after some certain time I dont think they will refuse.

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[joeramabeme]

All,

This is an awesome thread, thanks to everyone for their sharing and heartfelt stories of tribulation and healing.  

I know my 2bx BPDw loves me.  There are multiple ways in which the love is distorted and I always felt whip lashed by the heartless comments she would make and then a follow through of heartfelt actions that indicated how she really felt.  It was/is all very confusing and kept me off balance for a long time (still regaining or just establishing for the first time my footing).

I wanted to add something to this thread.  I am struck by how many topics are brought up about the BP that I feel are personally applicable.  The whole business of feeling empty and needing/wanting someone to complete me resonates.  I feel guilty in labeling her BP when I see the same characteristics in me.  I did not see her as an object but I did at times objectify her.

Additionally this quote hits me hard:

People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability (definition:Apt or likely to change). But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

YES!  That is what I felt, deep emptiness inside from not getting my needs met as a child.  I did not see my wife as a CURE, but I did see the relationship as a end in itself.  The part that everyone else had that I always saw through the looking glass and fantasized about what it was like to have this.

Anyway, i know this is not a thread for questions, but wanted to add this to the discussion.

Thank you all, on my way to healing, perhaps this is another item I will need to place on my 'to be healed' list.

Joe

[Arkadiusz]

Hello

My experience of a former partner that she did not love me as a human. She did not have sympathy. But she fed her plans, her own requirements. Her cravings.
I noticed that she was a bit primitive, on the one hand an intelligent woman, but I did not feel and did not see the commitment.
The honeymoon was full of commitment.
Later, she reduced her activity a lot. She hid on Messenger. For me it was a big bad sign.
She pushed hard for a seaside holiday, but I couldn't do it because I was rational and sober in our relationship.
I learned about her very disgusting things at work.
Her son had a bad influence on my son. Her demand for holidays was irrational, childish behavior.
I disagreed so she abandoned me and blocked me everywhere.
Is this a crush on me? Is it a feeling? I think it's feeding her needs. Selfish.
Time allows me to think rationally and in reality.
Thank you for yourself that my mind won. (She used to blame me, she was angry that I resist her) She called my behavior - a great male pride. Incorrect.

Arkadiusz

[zof]

Did she ever love me?

One question often pondered by realationsionship partners is "What was the true nature of the relationship? Did she (he) love me?"

The purpose of this workshop is to explore the nature of BPD love.  

[The main text of this intro post is an extended version of the essay I wrote to accompany the article How a Borderline Relationship Evolves, by Roger Melton, MA. The approach I’ve taken in writing what it’s like to love as a person with BPD has been mostly academic and abstract, more about the process of it rather than the feeling of it. I’ve stayed away from becoming too emotionally detailed because even though I am mostly recovered, it still is a painful subject, made even more so because I am single. Those old ghosts sometimes come knocking, still.]

Anyway, input, reactions, thoughts, opinions, solutions (), etc. about this subject would be welcome and appreciated.

What’s it like to love when you have borderline personality disorder?

... .I don’t know, but only because when I was not yet recovering from BPD as I am now, I couldn’t love. Not because I wasn’t capable of it (after all we people with BPD are still people) but because it wasn’t really love. It certainly felt like love to me – the only way I knew love to feel: desperate, overwhelming, consuming, and ultimately destructive. Love was like Hiroshima. It truly was a feeling of searing heat.

It was that way from the beginning of a relationship, and it was certainly that way at the end of one, and there was always an end because no healthy, normal human interaction could survive that kind of intensity. But at the beginning there was always positive passion, which understandibly made the non-BPD partner feel so exquisitely wanted. At the end of it, the passion was as strong as the start, but regardless of who ended the relationship, it was wholly negative.

People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability. But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

Love, for an adult, unrecovered BP, is still about getting those driving, unfulfilled needs met. It’s about finding THE person to love us unconditionally who will never leave us and who will make our lives bearable, who will give us a reason to live and give us back ourselves. Ultimately, that’s why it can’t be love, because romantic love is between two people who can experience emotional intimacy and who see each other as partners and as ends in themselves. The unrecovered person with BPD is not capable of that kind of selflessness and sharing: the partner remains an object to a BP, whether the BP is conscious of it or not: the partner is the “cure” for our lonliness, a source to feed our neediness, not a person in and of themselves.

So when our partner lets us down – for, as being humans they inevitably will – the once burning hot passion becomes a roaring fire of hatred or a self-immolation of agony and sadness. We don’t always mean to hurt the people we love, sometimes we don’t realise we have hurt the people we love, and often we hate ourselves because we have hurt the people we love. We want those we love to be with us and to stay with us, as does everyone else. That we folks with BPD are usually the very reasons those people leave is a pain beyond knowing: the thing we want the most is the thing we know least how to have. How horribly pitiful that is. Unless we grow and change and learn healthy ways, this will always be so in our lives, which means we will never truly experience the greatest thing that makes life worthwhile: love.

Oceanheart,

Thank you for this post. I just had to say goodbye to someone I truly loved, who I suspect has BPD. A complicated situation -- she is married, and has been in couples therapy for months, we had been in a long emotional affair. Things became physical on one instance, and I gave her some time to figure things out, as I did not want to start an affair. She kept saying that she had loved me deeply, sincerely, etc. The funny thing is, I never doubted her sincerity, but I came to think that her definition of love was completely skewed. She came to me from a place of despair, realizing how unfulfilling her life, and her long marriage, had been. She viewed me as her "saver" in so many ways. She is not in her 60s, and going through an existential crisis. She seeked out the connection that we came to form. It worked because I do have codependent tendencies -- I tend to want to save people from themselves. It was beautiful, yet extremely destructive. Which is why I pulled the plug. She is back in therapy, and I do hope she gets to experience love one day. I know it is not going to be with me, because she is going to need a lot of therapy to form a sense of identity and start loving herself. I saw the best in her -- all these gifts and talents that never completely blossomed. She is in a codependent relationship marriage that never allowed her to find herself and heal -- or try to -- from her BPD. I hope she does heal, and reading your perspective gives me hope for her. Thank you.

[Torimagic]

I just read through every post over the decades, and found them extremely helpful. I wanted to add this.
I can feel that part of me that needs to hear that she did love me. I asked my ex partner do you still love me. Her reply: “if I say yes it doesn’t feel honest and if I say no it doesn’t feel honest. I don’t know what love is, love hurts and harms and only creates pain.” If I use a different word or call you my best friend that means more to me than using the words I love you because I don’t know what that actually means anymore.” I said to her, you have been able to say that to me constantly through our relationship and she said “of course.” It was really hard to hear but it also felt like one of the most honest things she has said. She is unDxBPD in her 40s, and for the first time she seemed genuinely open to therapy. I know in her own way she loves and is also having the  realization of not understanding what healthy love actually is.