What is this Fairytale "Honeymoon Phase" People Speak Of

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

hijo,

so it only took two months for the hater phase to come out?  wow i didn't realize it can come out that quickly did you guys spend a lot of time together?

[avoidatallcost]

hijo,

so it only took two months for the hater phase to come out?  wow i didn't realize it can come out that quickly did you guys spend a lot of time together?

[hijodeganas]

hijo,

so it only took two months for the hater phase to come out?  wow i didn't realize it can come out that quickly did you guys spend a lot of time together?

I met her in October 2010. We hung out here and there til about June 2011. At that point she was one of several women I was seeing, and only 2-3 times a month. That's when we started getting intimate, both physically and emotionally. I would say our honeymoon stage started around July-August.

We became a couple around mid September. The hater stage started late September. But it went back and forth til about mid November, with a few break ups thrown in.

[painter]

My honeymoon phase lasted about six months. The odd thing about it was she kept trying to pull away, to avoid getting attached to me. She would go away and I had to win her over a few times each week, but that was always easy to do since she seemed to idolize me. Then when we became a couple and she started really clinging to me, never wanting to let me be away from her, that was the same time that the bizarre devaluing episodes started. That was when I realized I was dealing with mental illness, and that during the "honeymoon" she used to pull away to hide this aspect of herself from me.

[push pull]

Avoid, I never experienced a honeymoon, and it was hell for me from month one also. A month and a half into the r/s, she got pregnant to her bro's best friend and he left bite wounds on her boobs and bruises all over her body from the rough cocaine fuel sex they had. I tried to persuade her to keep the baby, no matter whose it was, because it wasn't the baby's fault.

Anyway, she cried, begged and pleaded with me for days to accompany her to an abortion clinic, so, very stupidly I eventually agreed. We got to the abortion clinic and they ran a few tests; the dates confirmed the other guy was the father, but it was too early to abort (it makes me sick thinking about this). My mind is absolutely blitzed by all of this, and she on the other hand, is laughing all the way home without a care in the world. She turns to me and says, 'You don't like to see someone happy do you?'

That's just one of the many things she did to psychologically torture me for the whole 10 months we were together. And here she is 13 months on with the guy she rebounded with, looking happy as ever and not a single care in the world.

Oh well... .

[avoidatallcost]

My honeymoon phase lasted about six months. The odd thing about it was she kept trying to pull away, to avoid getting attached to me. She would go away and I had to win her over a few times each week, but that was always easy to do since she seemed to idolize me. Then when we became a couple and she started really clinging to me, never wanting to let me be away from her, that was the same time that the bizarre devaluing episodes started. That was when I realized I was dealing with mental illness, and that during the "honeymoon" she used to pull away to hide this aspect of herself from me.

Painter, this is one of the things that upsets me about the whole BPD thing.  I read other posters writing about how their honeymoon phases lasted for like 6 months or two years or sometimes even longer... how could a BP manage to hide this serious mental illness for so long?  And then guys like me and hijo and johnny5 have to deal with the spawn of Satan from Month #1.  I know you mentioned that there was a bit of push-pull during this phase - how bad was it?  I know my BP ex's push-pull literally drove me insane and whenever she'd break up with me I'd be heading over to her house like the biggest chump, trying to win her back and in total fear that she'd start having sex with the next guy.

What exactly were the devaluing episodes like, were they really bad?  Could you give some examples?

@johnny5:

wow johnny i had to read that second sentence a couple of times over that is pure insanity.  :)efinitely BPD at its best.  Mine was like this too... the triangulation (read definition), the abortion, the not caring a single bit about it... how can BP's be so damn similar?  And an even better question - how the heck can your ex manage to remain in an even seemingly successful relationship for 13 whole months?

[push pull]

wow johnny i had to read that second sentence a couple of times over that is pure insanity.  Definitely BPD at its best.  Mine was like this too... the triangulation (read definition), the abortion, the not caring a single bit about it... how can BP's be so damn similar?  And an even better question - how the heck can your ex manage to remain in an even seemingly successful relationship for 13 whole months?

I can only imagine this guy is spending enormous amounts of money on her to keep her hanging around. In fact, when I went NC last year, I deactivated FB, then after a month of NC I reactivate and see that she'd rebounded with the said guy after 2 weeks. I see some posts were she was smearing me and feeling sorry for herself, then when she's in an r/s with the said guy, I see a later post which said, "kerching!". Kerching! as you're no doubt aware is an expression used to mimic the sound of a till. In other words, she was saying, 'I've found a man with lots of money!'.

She doesn't work and can't hold down a job. So, no doubt she's enjoying fleecing this guy for as long as she can get away with it.

[2010]

Does anyone have any experience as to whether medication can at least manage the BP's fear of abandonment/engulfment?  I know that certain drugs can improve the interpersonal relationships of BP's, but does anyone have any first hand knowledge whether drugs can actually prevent things such as the fear of abandonment and engulfment, push-pull tactics, triangulation (read definition), and mean put-downs?

Why in the World would you want to medicate their fear? The reason for the fear is due to the inability to confront it with logic and reason. Tranquilizing them would only cause them to be zombies in the service of others without logic and reason.

Borderline personality is the failure to enter into a required abandonment depression at the developmental stage of free will/ autonomy. Going through the required abandonment depression and coming out the other side without actual annihilation is a natural progression for us all. Somehow this stage became arrested in childhood and it is the crux of Borderline disorder. The subsequent fear of going through this stage plays itself out in a swinging pendulum of reward and withdrawal toward and away from relationship attachments that symbolize the earliest failure to separate from the primary object. The Borderline both clings to and also hates the attachment because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

[painter]

Avoidatallcost, the push-pull during the honeymoon phase was about 50-50. We weren't living together then. We'd get together three or four times a week. Half the times she would start by saying she didn't think she should be in a relationship, that we shouldn't be together, but then she would start kissing me, and when it came time to part she wouldn't want to.

The devaluing after the honeymoon consisted in drastic shifts in her personality once or several times a week, sometimes a couple of times in a  day. She would suddenly look different, stare at me hatefully, and say things like "I hate you, you're stupid, go away, you're ugly... ." It was bizarre. Afterward she would apologize and tell me I'm beautiful and the smartest and kindest man she's ever met.

Later in the rs it evened out somewhat.

[xeon]

Been with my wife for 20 years and she openly admits she had sex with me to keep/reel me in.  Now here I sit 20 years later, 5 emotional affairs with some kissing AFAIK.  I've been emotionally, sexually abused... .controlled, gas lighted... .I feel like I'm going crazy!  I'm still with my wife, but she isn't going to change, isn't interested in change and I'm left with a real tough choice.  I feel paralyzed to do what I feel I need to do.   

[bengaltropicat]

While I'm not an expert by any means, it seems to me that BPD's do what they have to to get what they want. Some are higher functioning than others and can maintain the "honeymoon" phase longer.  My UBPDexH and I split in September and he immediately moved in with another woman.  They never really dated like normal people, it was just kind of a "skulking around behind my back and painting me black" kind of thing.  He announced they are getting married now, 4 months out of  our 28 year marriage.  I don't want him but I have struggled with the ease with which he moved out of our long term marriage into a new relationship. Does the honeymoon last two months, four months, six months or a year or more?  Doesn't matter. It inevitably ends and turns to a hater relationship.  The woman he is with is a real loser and he suffered badly in the divorce (due to his own bad behavior so don't feel sorry for him!). There is probably a timeline where he cannot continue the honeymoon any longer but what I see is extreme desperation; he has to have someone, he has to be married. She is equally desperate and needs to get married.  Once the marriage takes place he can breathe a sign of relief and revert to who he really is-a disordered mess.  My job is working on my own issues so I don't end up with another disordered person.

In sum, they do what they have to in order to get what they want or need. There is no specific expiration date on the "honeymoon phase".  Past behavior is probably the best indicator of future behavior but the dynamic with someone else is always a factor in how the dysfunction plays out. 

[hithere]

how the heck can your ex manage to remain in an even seemingly successful relationship for 13 whole months?

No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

[avoidatallcost]

because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

But if the BP has experienced abandonment throughout his or her adolescence and adult life, and they have survived each and every encounter, why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

[hithere]

why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

Because their thought processes are abnormal, I find that my BPDex is almost in an alternate reality when it comes to most things.

[tuum est61]

The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

My uBPDw was in a maudlin mood tonight as will happen from time to time.  We had a quite good day today - purchased a new vehicle which she likes very much. Some idealization followed this eve.  While she usually has tied it to the losing others, for the first time she shared how she would not be able to "take it" if I died - she had started thinking about my "death" when we decided not to take life insurance on the car loan.  She said she would have to be "sedated" if I were ever to die. It was fueled by a bit of alcohol and went on for some time - and was quite "over the top".

This was but one example of her fears of abandonment today; just as she was signing the papers for the car, she nearly backed out of the deal - we sent the finance person away so she could relate her fear of us getting a divorce.   There were other examples as well and there's a definite "fearful" trend.

2010 has expressed the above quote before. My fear is that her fear of abandonment will never be conquered until she is truly abandoned at some point.  I will be subject to this maudlin musing forever.  But the ironic thing is that it beats the usual symptom which is splitting me bad.   ?

[MyLife]

from hijodeganas:

so I was pretty used to emotional volatility

I am curious as to your definition of emotional volatility.

[hijodeganas]

from hijodeganas:

so I was pretty used to emotional volatility

I am curious as to your definition of emotional volatility.

Emotional extremes; anger rather than upset, joy rather than happiness; sudden and inexplicable mood changes.

[MyLife]

Emotional extremes; anger rather than upset, joy rather than happiness; sudden and inexplicable mood changes.

thanks for the laugh.  But sorry for you that his has been your "considerable experience with women".  I'm sure you already know that this isn't the description of all women and their emotions.

That is funny though.   

[stonehead]

I don't know what's better, to have never had a honeymoon phase or to not have?

This is very true!  I think it's even worse for the members out there who thought they had found their soulmate and the woman/man of their dreams!  It must be at least a little more shocking... but I have to add that my post break up pain seems to be every bit as horrible and intense as everyone else's out there.  It's just as hurtful and takes just as long to get over.  These relationships, for some reason, have a way of hurting you really really bad.  I have dumped women and been dumped before but nothing ever hurt quite as much as my BPD relationship and the ensuing break up.

Avoidatallcost,

I totally agree with you. Breaking up with BPDs are extremely difficult and painful. It has taken me about 6 months to feel just a little better. However, just one look at her photo will set me back for another day or 2.  I have been dumped by my nonBPD girl friend before, but it was not even remotely as painful as this one.

[stonehead]

because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

But if the BP has experienced abandonment throughout his or her adolescence and adult life, and they have survived each and every encounter, why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

May be because they are addicted to this attachment/abandonment drama, much like someone who is addicted to drugs?

[hijodeganas]

Emotional extremes; anger rather than upset, joy rather than happiness; sudden and inexplicable mood changes.

thanks for the laugh.  But sorry for you that his has been your "considerable experience with women".  I'm sure you already know that this isn't the description of all women and their emotions.

That is funny though.   

Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.   

[avoidatallcost]

because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

But if the BP has experienced abandonment throughout his or her adolescence and adult life, and they have survived each and every encounter, why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

May be because they are addicted to this attachment/abandonment drama, much like someone who is addicted to drugs?

I've heard this too somewhere... but is it that BP's are addicted to reliving their attachment/abandonment drama over and over again, or do they relive it because of their "amnesia," you know the kind of amnesia that makes them repeat their chaotic relationships over and over again?

[MyLife]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.  barfy

Oh gosh, there was no impressiveness, and of course it isn't your duty.  I most apologize if you perceived my post offensive, it was certainly not intended - not in any way.   

[avoidatallcost]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.  barfy

Oh gosh, there was no impressiveness, and of course it isn't your duty.  I most apologize if you perceived my post offensive, it was certainly not intended - not in any way.  

Now now guys there's no need for arguing here, after all we're no longer with our borderlines!

I can relate to what hijo is saying I too had had my fair share of difficult women and was confident that I was experienced enough to handle my BP.  Sadly, I was wrong.  Nobody can handle them.  You can be the most handsome, confident, understanding man or the most beautiful sweet woman. It doesn't matter who you are or how kind you are or how rich you are.  Their fears and self defense mechanisms are too deeply ingrained for anyone to overcome through intelligence, love, or charm.  

The only way any normal man or woman can effectively "handle" a BP is  by leaving them.  

[darkstar]

I've heard this too somewhere... but is it that BP's are addicted to reliving their attachment/abandonment drama over and over again, or do they relive it because of their "amnesia," you know the kind of amnesia that makes them repeat their chaotic relationships over and over again?

I had now 2 crazy women, one diagnoses BPD one PD(whatever kind)... .

Its "amnesia" for sure and ya they live just in the present moment! Well I can just speak for my ex, her emotions were kind of controlling her to a maximum level! Every little thing... mimic, words, body language was triggering her in some way. She had no capacity in her brain to grow during experiences like normal people do.  My  exgf really tought about to go back to her ex-boyfriend, who wanted to commit suicide because of her. Drama Baby Give me Drama!

[hijodeganas]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.  barfy

Oh gosh, there was no impressiveness, and of course it isn't your duty.  I most apologize if you perceived my post offensive, it was certainly not intended - not in any way.   

No problem. I reread your response and realized I may have misinterpreted. My apologies for that.

I've had my share of emotionally healthy, mature women as well. That's been the majority of my experience. But I spent a few years learning "pick up" and seduction and such and have also encountered the opposite side of the spectrum as well. I thought I had a good idea of how potentially emotionally volatile a woman can become. My uBPDex taught me otherwise.

[hijodeganas]

It's less like an addiction to drugs and more like a fear of the unknown. The abandonment cycle is comfort because it's knowable. Dealing with abandonment anxiety is unknown, therefore frightening. It's a loss, much like death. I believe dealing with emotions that have been surpressed since childhood is equivalent of dying, in a sense. The end result is unknown and therefore fearful.

Not to mention their whole (lack of?) identity has been built around the push-pull dynamic. If they were to give that up, who are they? That whole highly dramatic behavior has become their life, much like a "rescuer" defines him or herself by the drama and trying to save the unsaveable. If you give up your identity, your whole story, who/what are you? That's also a loss; a loss of your self. The idea of having to recreate yourself from nothing is daunting to anyone, BPD or otherwise. The majority of us would prefer to stay comfortable.