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Author Topic: What is this Fairytale "Honeymoon Phase" People Speak Of  (Read 8214 times)
avoidatallcost
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« on: February 15, 2012, 12:13:07 PM »

Ok so all the articles on BPD talk about an initial honeymoon phase, where life with the BP is perfect and they seem like the perfect person for you and they want to do all the things you like to do and they have sex with you all the time etc.  How come I never experienced any of this?  Life with my BP from Month 1 was like hell on earth.  Except for the constant supply of sex, which of course dried out as soon as it became clear to my BP that I was attached.

Anyone else miss out on this honeymoon phase?  Of course things weren't exactly the hell on earth that they became later on in our 1 year "relationship," but I have to admit from the beginning I pretty much knew this person was not exactly marriage material, if you know what I mean!
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marbleloser
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 12:40:07 PM »

 In my case, she loved being with me,liked the same things I did,couldn't get enough of me, and as far as sex,did everything she could to please me. We didn't even have to "do" anything.Just sit and talk.It was enough for her just to be near me.She was always hugging me,telling me she loved me,thanked me for any little thing I did for her, and would go out of her way to help me with anything.If I wanted to see her,she'd drop everything and come see me,even if for just 10 minutes. Some days we'd just take drives in the country.She'd hold my hand,talk to me,sing along with the radio.I loved every minute of being with her.She made me feel alive and like a man again.Something I had long lost with my nonBP wife.For the duration of the RS,I was on top of the world.I never got the devalueing or rages everyone else here seemed to have gotten. We were planning on spending the rest of our lives together.

Also,she was a great cook,knew everything about anything,and even gave me tips on household chores,because I'm usually the one doing that.She'd share little tidbits of how to make my cleaning easier so I wouldn't have so much to do at home.She told me that when we're together,I won't have to worry about that any more.That I deserve someone to love me and do things for me for a change.

I have to admit,it all sounded too good to be true,and it was.I thought I had someone that appreciated "me" and someone I loved and appreciated in return.In the end,I had to manipulate and hurt her so she'd paint me black.It was best for us both.It's better for her to hate me and cast the blame to me.She had so much shame she had to deal with already.She didn't need any from me.And,I didnt need someone that I couldn't trust or that would manipulate me to get their way.
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alcochoc
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 12:42:50 PM »



ditto avoidatallcost... .DITTO
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GP44
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 12:47:56 PM »

First 10.5 months - absolute bliss

Last month together - still very, very good. Thought we were transitioning into a more stable and comfortable phase of our relationship.

Then the abrupt breakup.
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backontop
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 01:45:50 PM »

I'm glad you said it, because I was feeling like the only one who got seriously ripped off!  My r/s sucked from the very beginning,   Which made me feel more lime a sucker for sticking it out when I should have run lime the wind from the very start.  My waif was super needy and CRAZY from the first day I met him.   I was bored and it seemed exciting.   The joke was on me:)
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 01:52:43 PM »

I know what you mean... when I first started going out with my BP I was thinking there is no way in hell I could get seriously involved with someone like this.  She told me she wanted an "open relationship" so I knew what kind of person I was dealing with here.  But another girl I was seeing at the time fell through, and I started spending more and more time with my BP. 

Before I knew it, I was hooked.  The entire time after I realized I was hooked, I was praying for a way out of the relationship.  Every day in this relationship with her was like hell on earth.  How she has even managed to maintain some semblance of normalcy with the new guy after 4 months is completely beyond me.  It must be the new medication she's on, but this no doubt will not last long!   
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saxon747
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 03:10:32 PM »

Mine (honeymoon period) lasted about 3 months then it went downhill from there. Thought it was bitterness from her dumping her H for him cheating on her and that I could make her happy which I did for a bit. Then the real person showed up and I realized you can't make a depressed/unhappy person happy, fact! Oh she is happy now with my replacement but that will change in time, poor soul she's got him duped!
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hithere
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 03:14:16 PM »

The part I don't get about your stories is how you got hooked without the idealization phase.

If things were crappy off the get-go then what made you stay?  ?

For me the idealization phase was around 8 months long, she looked at me like I was a king, she could not say enough good things about me to her family and friends (I am sure it made them sic), she was always hugging me, kissing me and wanting lots of sex.  It wasn't until I got laid-off that I saw the BPD rage directed at me.  Truthfully all the red flags were there from the beginning but they are easy to ignore because you want to believe in the fairy tale.

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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 03:18:54 PM »

Well for me, things were ok like any other relationship I guess.  It just wasn't the perfect "wow I've finally found my soulmate" kind of happiness that is so often reported by other members here and by other important books and articles on the subject. 

And like a lot of other men and women who did not really enjoy a perfect "honeymoon phase," I thought that things would get better. 
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Robhart
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 04:08:50 PM »

They have a 6th sense of what boundaries to push and when.

By the end I was in such denial I lived with behaviors I would have ever considered up front.

Maybe for some BPDs it's like fishing. They  put the hook in the water without bait and still catch something.
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backontop
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 04:51:27 PM »

The part I don't get about your stories is how you got hooked without the idealization phase.

If things were crappy off the get-go then what made you stay?  ?

For me the idealization phase was around 8 months long, she looked at me like I was a king, she could not say enough good things about me to her family and friends (I am sure it made them sic), she was always hugging me, kissing me and wanting lots of sex.  It wasn't until I got laid-off that I saw the BPD rage directed at me.  Truthfully all the red flags were there from the beginning but they are easy to ignore because you want to believe in the fairy tale.

I ask myself that EVERY day... .and I was mystified at first.   It was my need to rescue, and an attraction to drama... .all my stuff.    Non-existant boundaries and a guy who would not leave your side for ten seconds was the hook that got me hopelessly entangled,  completing the toxic cocktail-  which I readily drank!  Codepency at it's best  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 04:56:27 PM »

They have a 6th sense of what boundaries to push and when.

By the end I was in such denial I lived with behaviors I would have ever considered up front.

Maybe for some BPDs it's like fishing. They  put the hook in the water without bait and still catch something.

I have said that if my BPD w had told me the truth up front, I would have run screaming in the other direction.  They know this, too, and that is why you will never get the truth out of them until you pull it out.  And, by then, you are in deep.
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NewStart
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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 05:10:52 PM »

Mine lasted about 4 months and there were red flags everywhere.  It was too good to be true she just wanted to spend EVERY second with me and yes from something like date #2 it was sex 24/7... .I'm ashamed of this but it didn't matter if my kids were home, her daughter was home... .anything my heart desired... .I was the best etc. etc. etc... . |>  |>  |>

She bought me gifts and wrote me these beautiful cards that painted me as the most amazing person to ever come into her life.  A friend of hers actually told me, "I've never heard her ever talk about anyone the way she talks about you, she said you are her moon and stars... ."  She would sit at my feet and just look at me with these giant puppy eyes if someone else had my attentionred-flag   She told me she finally met someone "strong enough to be her man"  |>  All strangely SO obviously over the topred-flag  

One night I just wanted to spend an afternoon skiing with just my buddies as we had done EVERYTHING together for four months... .well she FREAKED!  She had got a baby sitter and was going to the bar to 'find someone who wants to spend time with me!' and ended up curled up on her bed sobbing uncontrolably  |>

Then it started, slowly but surely with ignoring texts from me and then the triangulation (read definition) with old BF's... .at that point it really seemed to become all about keeping me off balance.

I don't know what's better, to have never had a honeymoon phase or to not have?
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 05:57:05 PM »

I don't know what's better, to have never had a honeymoon phase or to not have?

This is very true!  I think it's even worse for the members out there who thought they had found their soulmate and the woman/man of their dreams!  It must be at least a little more shocking... but I have to add that my post break up pain seems to be every bit as horrible and intense as everyone else's out there.  It's just as hurtful and takes just as long to get over.  These relationships, for some reason, have a way of hurting you really really bad.  I have dumped women and been dumped before but nothing ever hurt quite as much as my BPD relationship and the ensuing break up.
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 05:59:36 PM »

Avoidatallcosts - That's what I'm thinking... .if it was never 'the one' then it's probably easier to move forward right?

Be happy you didn't have the honeymoon phase as THAT is what so many of us have such a hard time getting past.

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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 06:07:04 PM »

Don't get me wrong in this early phase my BP had an amazing ability to make me feel great!  We loved doing a lot of the same things, though I'm not quite sure she mirrored me to the extent that a lot of other posters here have described.  I thought that like any r/s the two of us shared certain commonalities.  She could be so loving, but she maintained her distance too which made me try all the more to get her to be affectionate again! 

But as great as this phase was, and some of these times with her were indeed the happiest times in my life, I still can't help but feel as if though I missed out on a genuine "honeymoon" phase where I thought I had met my soulmate and the woman I can spend the rest of my life with.

At times I may have felt this way, that I could marry her, but even in this phase I was thinking to myself, "how can I continue with this woman after what she's done to me?"
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 06:49:57 PM »

Mine lasted about 4 months and there were red flags everywhere.  It was too good to be true she just wanted to spend EVERY second with me and yes from something like date #2 it was sex 24/7... .I'm ashamed of this but it didn't matter if my kids were home, her daughter was home... .anything my heart desired... .I was the best etc. etc. etc... . |>  |>  |>

She bought me gifts and wrote me these beautiful cards that painted me as the most amazing person to ever come into her life.  A friend of hers actually told me, "I've never heard her ever talk about anyone the way she talks about you, she said you are her moon and stars... ."  She would sit at my feet and just look at me with these giant puppy eyes if someone else had my attentionred-flag   She told me she finally met someone "strong enough to be her man"  |>  All strangely SO obviously over the topred-flag  


Do we know the same woman?

Mine was textbook.  The idealization, the mirroring, the mind-blowing sex anytime, anything, anywhere, the staring at me with "googley" eyes, the wanting to spend every minute together just enjoying each other's company, etc... .  I was in heaven, I was the luckiest guy in the world.  She was drop-dead gorgeous, she was perfect, she wanted me, and she was all mine... .or so I thought.

"You are the best at sex", "You are the best kisser", "You are the best cook", "I've finally met my dream man", blah, blah, blah... .
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 07:36:10 PM »

This is the phase that hooks you.  It is your first experience with such an exciting, "emotionally available", consistent, and childlike innocent "honesty. 

But suddenly, he is gone, you don't know who he is, you are painted black.  At which point, you are looking to bring back the guy you met in the very beginning.  That guy is gone, he was the opening act…he never comes out again until the show opens in another city.

It's like crack on steroids, sprinkled with angel dust.
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 07:52:13 PM »

But suddenly, he is gone, you don't know who he is, you are painted black.  At which point, you are looking to bring back the guy you met in the very beginning.  That guy is gone, he was the opening act…he never comes out again until the show opens in another city.

It's like the harder you try to win him or her back, the more resolved he or she becomes in finding a replacement for you.
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 08:01:24 PM »

But suddenly, he is gone, you don't know who he is, you are painted black.  At which point, you are looking to bring back the guy you met in the very beginning.  That guy is gone, he was the opening act…he never comes out again until the show opens in another city.

It's like the harder you try to win him or her back, the more resolved he or she becomes in finding a replacement for you.

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but in line w' what you said, the fear of engulfment may be Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) play.  This may be the point where the BPD feels that he/she is losing the control they have over themselves. If they lose the little of who they think they are... .they lose their sense of self... .which they know is fragile.  They flee onto someone who may rescue them from this event.  I started a thread earlier on the question of their feeling abandoned vs. engulfed... I'm still confused, but a bit clearer
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mermaid8
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 08:06:11 PM »

This is the phase that hooks you.  It is your first experience with such an exciting, "emotionally available", consistent, and childlike innocent "honesty. 

But suddenly, he is gone, you don't know who he is, you are painted black.  At which point, you are looking to bring back the guy you met in the very beginning.  That guy is gone, he was the opening act…he never comes out again until the show opens in another city.

It's like crack on steroids, sprinkled with angel dust.

Very well put Helena!

My first year of my 3 yr r/s was like I had finally found what I had waited my whole life for. A man who would finally treat me the way that "I deserved" to be treated. Honestly in the beginning he was SOO accommodating and so honest with his feelings and emotions that it felt too good to be true. Early on he wore his heart on his sleeve. Told both of my parents after dating me for one month that he would "always treat Mermaid like the princess she deserves to be"... ."I will NEVER do anything to intentionally hurt her heart". I mean, can you actually believe he SAID THIS? To my parents? My dad still jokes and tells me that he told (ex) "well if you do hurt her you will have to deal with me... .Mermaid has a big heart and I do hope you are sincere". I will say that after the first 10 months, he started to make comments about being depressed and those were Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  sred-flag ... .But other than that, it was wonderful. It definitely hooked me. If he had behaved in the beginning the way he did the second year, I would have been long out of there. It was that honeymoon phase that hooked me... .and I was in a constant search for bring back that man and that time again! He made sure to actually listen to everything that I would say and he had this memory for knowing my likes and dislikes and he was so attentive, thoughtful. He would shower me with cards and notes and little thoughtful gifts that would make anyone's heart melt. This is what makes a r/s with a pwBPD such a mind f***... .Because there is no big issue that made him change his feelings towards me and treat me like I was annoyance rather than someone that he couldn't get  enough of... .literally! Being in a PBD r/s makes me feel like I was almost brainwashed. The situation made me (and still does) think that I am crazy. I know I'm not but it's how it makes me feel.

Anyway, that is my experience with the honeymoon phase... .Just about everything he said to me during this phase could be turned around to mean the exact opposite by the end of our r/s. "I want to spend forever with you Mermaid"... ."I cannot be a boyfriend Mermaid" ... ."I want to marry you and take care of you Mermaid"... ."I could never do the marriage thing or the 24/7 thing Mermaid"... ."I miss you Mermaid, when do I get to see you again?"... ."Um, I am busy and not sure if I have time to go to xyz and see you this weekend Mermaid"... .and the list goes on with the craziness... .
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 08:07:50 PM »

But suddenly, he is gone, you don't know who he is, you are painted black.  At which point, you are looking to bring back the guy you met in the very beginning.  That guy is gone, he was the opening act…he never comes out again until the show opens in another city.

It's like the harder you try to win him or her back, the more resolved he or she becomes in finding a replacement for you.

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but in line w' what you said, the fear of engulfment may be Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) play. 

Does anyone have any experience as to whether medication can at least manage the BP's fear of abandonment/engulfment?  I know that certain drugs can improve the interpersonal relationships of BP's, but does anyone have any first hand knowledge whether drugs can actually prevent things such as the fear of abandonment and engulfment, push-pull tactics, triangulation (read definition), and mean put-downs?
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 08:18:07 PM »

Excerpt
Does anyone have any experience as to whether medication can at least manage the BP's fear of abandonment/engulfment?  I know that certain drugs can improve the interpersonal relationships of BP's, but does anyone have any first hand knowledge whether drugs can actually prevent things such as the fear of abandonment and engulfment, push-pull tactics, triangulation (read definition), and mean put-downs?


I am pretty certain that some meds can help with rages and other self harm behavior or eating disorders related to the BPD but as far as the push pull tactics and abondonment/engulfment, I don't think so. I believe based on what I have read that these deep core issues are usually treated with the DBT and the pwBPD learns coping and new ways of thinking. T plus meds is usually the way to go. One or the other is not a substitute for the other. Unlike Bipolar disorder or other mental illnesses that are more physiologically based, respond to medication sometimes solely. But BPD is a personality disorder that is not solely rooted in a brain chemistry issue. I am not of course an expert but based on what I have learned this is what I know.
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 08:19:41 PM »

I don't think meds are effective Avoid.  I'm no expert, but from what I've learned, meds stabilize moods and may have impact on the impulsive behavior that causes them to dysregulate, flee impulsively, etc. But the abandonment/engulf issue is due to arrested emotional growth at the age of 3.  I suppose that only therapy... .lots of it... .is the only effective treatment.
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 10:38:14 PM »

Wow. This is intriguing to me. It seems there are a variety of honeymoon phases. The depth and durations vary considerably.

For me, it started mildly. Little comments and gestures for a couple months, then got very heavy for a few weeks, then went downhill.

The honeymoon phase is what hooked me. When she started dysregulating I assumed the honeymoon her was the "real" her which she would return to once she got to know me and trust me better.

The honeymoon phase plus a couple other things worked against me:

1. I had considerable experience with women, so I was pretty used to emotional volatility. I considered this a challenge I wanted to conquer (and i assumed a return to the honeymoon phase would be my reward).

2. Also as a result I was very confident in my abilities as a boyfriend, so I was sure we could overcome any problems we had and that she would be appreciative if I simply cared enough.

3. She was young, so I assumed it may have just been immaturity (but that it would stabilize little by little eventually).
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 12:51:44 AM »

Our "honeymoon phase" happened online, so there was no constant awesome sex. Our sex was never good (or wanted on my end) and frankly I'm not even sure if the relationship was either. You're not alone.
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 05:58:52 AM »

Our honeymoon was "online" too. Long distance. So I had just words, and I was believing all of them. On our first real meeting 2-3 Month later I noticed already that her words and her actions are a bit different. I was confused because she was very not clingy or something like this... she just wanted sex most of the time. But nothing like I was used... like just hugging and talk... .kissing... it all ended just always in sex. Then her weird sleeping behavior,  it was almost impossible to fall asleep together... .like couples "do". After this 2 weeks of sexhoneymoon, the chaos started right after her leaving... I knew she was crazy since that moment... but I felt so alone before we met I have to admit now, that I thought I am in love with chaos and craziness... the rest of the almost 4 years would fill a book. So I stop here.
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 08:35:04 AM »

I think the problem with meds is that the disorder has such a wide spectrum of problems that no one medication would ever help and after a cocktail of three of four meds the person would likely not be able to function.
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »

The honeymoon phase is what hooked me. When she started dysregulating I assumed the honeymoon her was the "real" her which she would return to once she got to know me and trust me better.

The honeymoon phase plus a couple other things worked against me:

1. I had considerable experience with women, so I was pretty used to emotional volatility. I considered this a challenge I wanted to conquer (and i assumed a return to the honeymoon phase would be my reward).

2. Also as a result I was very confident in my abilities as a boyfriend, so I was sure we could overcome any problems we had and that she would be appreciative if I simply cared enough.

Wow hijodeganas, ditto ditto, ditto and ditto.

My honeymoon phase was absolutley awesome, I was completely blown away by it. Here was the most fascinating creature I'd ever met placing me high on a pedestal... Of course, she couldn't have done it alone. I was her willing, complicit partner and I placed her on an equally high pedestal... .

Of course, when things started turning sour after a couple of years I was so used to the dynamic that I thought it was normal... If even a fantastically special kind of normal.

The new person was unrecognisable, full of resentment, malice, lies, projection, blame and barely functioning as a human being. A super super victim constantly sabotaging her own, mine and and our future.

If I'd known the real ex from the start rather than the fake that I was presented with then I'd NEVER have got involved.

Without the honeymoon, I wouldn't be here.
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hijodeganas
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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 10:18:47 PM »

The honeymoon phase is what hooked me. When she started dysregulating I assumed the honeymoon her was the "real" her which she would return to once she got to know me and trust me better.

The honeymoon phase plus a couple other things worked against me:

1. I had considerable experience with women, so I was pretty used to emotional volatility. I considered this a challenge I wanted to conquer (and i assumed a return to the honeymoon phase would be my reward).

2. Also as a result I was very confident in my abilities as a boyfriend, so I was sure we could overcome any problems we had and that she would be appreciative if I simply cared enough.

Wow hijodeganas, ditto ditto, ditto and ditto.

My honeymoon phase was absolutley awesome, I was completely blown away by it. Here was the most fascinating creature I'd ever met placing me high on a pedestal... Of course, she couldn't have done it alone. I was her willing, complicit partner and I placed her on an equally high pedestal... .

Of course, when things started turning sour after a couple of years I was so used to the dynamic that I thought it was normal... If even a fantastically special kind of normal.

The new person was unrecognisable, full of resentment, malice, lies, projection, blame and barely functioning as a human being. A super super victim constantly sabotaging her own, mine and and our future.

If I'd known the real ex from the start rather than the fake that I was presented with then I'd NEVER have got involved.

Without the honeymoon, I wouldn't be here.

You touched upon another aspect that also hooked me: my uBPDexgf was definitely unique. I had never dated a girl like her before. I started to think that the hater side to her may just have been "part of the deal," so to speak, of getting such an ideal woman.

I also probably learned my biggest lesson about relationships as a result.
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 10:20:47 PM »

hijo,

so it only took two months for the hater phase to come out?  wow i didn't realize it can come out that quickly did you guys spend a lot of time together?
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2012, 10:33:04 PM »

hijo,

so it only took two months for the hater phase to come out?  wow i didn't realize it can come out that quickly did you guys spend a lot of time together?

I met her in October 2010. We hung out here and there til about June 2011. At that point she was one of several women I was seeing, and only 2-3 times a month. That's when we started getting intimate, both physically and emotionally. I would say our honeymoon stage started around July-August.

We became a couple around mid September. The hater stage started late September. But it went back and forth til about mid November, with a few break ups thrown in.
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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 10:59:45 PM »

My honeymoon phase lasted about six months. The odd thing about it was she kept trying to pull away, to avoid getting attached to me. She would go away and I had to win her over a few times each week, but that was always easy to do since she seemed to idolize me. Then when we became a couple and she started really clinging to me, never wanting to let me be away from her, that was the same time that the bizarre devaluing episodes started. That was when I realized I was dealing with mental illness, and that during the "honeymoon" she used to pull away to hide this aspect of herself from me.
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« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2012, 11:09:34 PM »

Avoid, I never experienced a honeymoon, and it was hell for me from month one also. A month and a half into the r/s, she got pregnant to her bro's best friend and he left bite wounds on her boobs and bruises all over her body from the rough cocaine fuel sex they had. I tried to persuade her to keep the baby, no matter whose it was, because it wasn't the baby's fault.

Anyway, she cried, begged and pleaded with me for days to accompany her to an abortion clinic, so, very stupidly I eventually agreed. We got to the abortion clinic and they ran a few tests; the dates confirmed the other guy was the father, but it was too early to abort (it makes me sick thinking about this). My mind is absolutely blitzed by all of this, and she on the other hand, is laughing all the way home without a care in the world. She turns to me and says, 'You don't like to see someone happy do you?'

That's just one of the many things she did to psychologically torture me for the whole 10 months we were together. And here she is 13 months on with the guy she rebounded with, looking happy as ever and not a single care in the world.

Oh well... .

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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 11:20:22 PM »

My honeymoon phase lasted about six months. The odd thing about it was she kept trying to pull away, to avoid getting attached to me. She would go away and I had to win her over a few times each week, but that was always easy to do since she seemed to idolize me. Then when we became a couple and she started really clinging to me, never wanting to let me be away from her, that was the same time that the bizarre devaluing episodes started. That was when I realized I was dealing with mental illness, and that during the "honeymoon" she used to pull away to hide this aspect of herself from me.

Painter, this is one of the things that upsets me about the whole BPD thing.  I read other posters writing about how their honeymoon phases lasted for like 6 months or two years or sometimes even longer... how could a BP manage to hide this serious mental illness for so long?  And then guys like me and hijo and johnny5 have to deal with the spawn of Satan from Month #1.  I know you mentioned that there was a bit of push-pull during this phase - how bad was it?  I know my BP ex's push-pull literally drove me insane and whenever she'd break up with me I'd be heading over to her house like the biggest chump, trying to win her back and in total fear that she'd start having sex with the next guy.

What exactly were the devaluing episodes like, were they really bad?  Could you give some examples?

@johnny5:

wow johnny i had to read that second sentence a couple of times over that is pure insanity.  :)efinitely BPD at its best.  Mine was like this too... the triangulation (read definition), the abortion, the not caring a single bit about it... how can BP's be so damn similar?  And an even better question - how the heck can your ex manage to remain in an even seemingly successful relationship for 13 whole months?

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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 11:45:11 PM »

Excerpt
wow johnny i had to read that second sentence a couple of times over that is pure insanity.  Definitely BPD at its best.  Mine was like this too... the triangulation (read definition), the abortion, the not caring a single bit about it... how can BP's be so damn similar?  And an even better question - how the heck can your ex manage to remain in an even seemingly successful relationship for 13 whole months?

I can only imagine this guy is spending enormous amounts of money on her to keep her hanging around. In fact, when I went NC last year, I deactivated FB, then after a month of NC I reactivate and see that she'd rebounded with the said guy after 2 weeks. I see some posts were she was smearing me and feeling sorry for herself, then when she's in an r/s with the said guy, I see a later post which said, "kerching!". Kerching! as you're no doubt aware is an expression used to mimic the sound of a till. In other words, she was saying, 'I've found a man with lots of money!'.

She doesn't work and can't hold down a job. So, no doubt she's enjoying fleecing this guy for as long as she can get away with it.
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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2012, 05:44:09 AM »

Excerpt
Does anyone have any experience as to whether medication can at least manage the BP's fear of abandonment/engulfment?  I know that certain drugs can improve the interpersonal relationships of BP's, but does anyone have any first hand knowledge whether drugs can actually prevent things such as the fear of abandonment and engulfment, push-pull tactics, triangulation (read definition), and mean put-downs?

Why in the World would you want to medicate their fear? The reason for the fear is due to the inability to confront it with logic and reason. Tranquilizing them would only cause them to be zombies in the service of others without logic and reason.

Borderline personality is the failure to enter into a required abandonment depression at the developmental stage of free will/ autonomy. Going through the required abandonment depression and coming out the other side without actual annihilation is a natural progression for us all. Somehow this stage became arrested in childhood and it is the crux of Borderline disorder. The subsequent fear of going through this stage plays itself out in a swinging pendulum of reward and withdrawal toward and away from relationship attachments that symbolize the earliest failure to separate from the primary object. The Borderline both clings to and also hates the attachment because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2012, 06:03:39 AM »

Avoidatallcost, the push-pull during the honeymoon phase was about 50-50. We weren't living together then. We'd get together three or four times a week. Half the times she would start by saying she didn't think she should be in a relationship, that we shouldn't be together, but then she would start kissing me, and when it came time to part she wouldn't want to.

The devaluing after the honeymoon consisted in drastic shifts in her personality once or several times a week, sometimes a couple of times in a  day. She would suddenly look different, stare at me hatefully, and say things like "I hate you, you're stupid, go away, you're ugly... ." It was bizarre. Afterward she would apologize and tell me I'm beautiful and the smartest and kindest man she's ever met.

Later in the rs it evened out somewhat.
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2012, 06:19:44 AM »

Been with my wife for 20 years and she openly admits she had sex with me to keep/reel me in.  Now here I sit 20 years later, 5 emotional affairs with some kissing AFAIK.  I've been emotionally, sexually abused... .controlled, gas lighted... .I feel like I'm going crazy!  I'm still with my wife, but she isn't going to change, isn't interested in change and I'm left with a real tough choice.  I feel paralyzed to do what I feel I need to do.   
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2012, 06:52:55 AM »

While I'm not an expert by any means, it seems to me that BPD's do what they have to to get what they want. Some are higher functioning than others and can maintain the "honeymoon" phase longer.  My UBPDexH and I split in September and he immediately moved in with another woman.  They never really dated like normal people, it was just kind of a "skulking around behind my back and painting me black" kind of thing.  He announced they are getting married now, 4 months out of  our 28 year marriage.  I don't want him but I have struggled with the ease with which he moved out of our long term marriage into a new relationship. Does the honeymoon last two months, four months, six months or a year or more?  Doesn't matter. It inevitably ends and turns to a hater relationship.  The woman he is with is a real loser and he suffered badly in the divorce (due to his own bad behavior so don't feel sorry for him!). There is probably a timeline where he cannot continue the honeymoon any longer but what I see is extreme desperation; he has to have someone, he has to be married. She is equally desperate and needs to get married.  Once the marriage takes place he can breathe a sign of relief and revert to who he really is-a disordered mess.  My job is working on my own issues so I don't end up with another disordered person.

In sum, they do what they have to in order to get what they want or need. There is no specific expiration date on the "honeymoon phase".  Past behavior is probably the best indicator of future behavior but the dynamic with someone else is always a factor in how the dysfunction plays out. 
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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2012, 08:30:09 AM »

Excerpt
how the heck can your ex manage to remain in an even seemingly successful relationship for 13 whole months?

No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2012, 08:35:59 AM »

because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

But if the BP has experienced abandonment throughout his or her adolescence and adult life, and they have survived each and every encounter, why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2012, 08:46:45 AM »

Excerpt
why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

Because their thought processes are abnormal, I find that my BPDex is almost in an alternate reality when it comes to most things.
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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2012, 12:34:16 AM »

The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

My uBPDw was in a maudlin mood tonight as will happen from time to time.  We had a quite good day today - purchased a new vehicle which she likes very much. Some idealization followed this eve.  While she usually has tied it to the losing others, for the first time she shared how she would not be able to "take it" if I died - she had started thinking about my "death" when we decided not to take life insurance on the car loan.  She said she would have to be "sedated" if I were ever to die. It was fueled by a bit of alcohol and went on for some time - and was quite "over the top".

This was but one example of her fears of abandonment today; just as she was signing the papers for the car, she nearly backed out of the deal - we sent the finance person away so she could relate her fear of us getting a divorce.   There were other examples as well and there's a definite "fearful" trend.

2010 has expressed the above quote before. My fear is that her fear of abandonment will never be conquered until she is truly abandoned at some point.  I will be subject to this maudlin musing forever.  But the ironic thing is that it beats the usual symptom which is splitting me bad.   ?
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2012, 07:20:15 PM »

from hijodeganas:

Excerpt
so I was pretty used to emotional volatility

I am curious as to your definition of emotional volatility.
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2012, 07:28:25 PM »

from hijodeganas:

Excerpt
so I was pretty used to emotional volatility

I am curious as to your definition of emotional volatility.

Emotional extremes; anger rather than upset, joy rather than happiness; sudden and inexplicable mood changes.
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« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 04:19:48 PM »

Excerpt
Emotional extremes; anger rather than upset, joy rather than happiness; sudden and inexplicable mood changes.

thanks for the laugh.  But sorry for you that his has been your "considerable experience with women".  I'm sure you already know that this isn't the description of all women and their emotions.

That is funny though.   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 05:18:36 PM »

I don't know what's better, to have never had a honeymoon phase or to not have?

This is very true!  I think it's even worse for the members out there who thought they had found their soulmate and the woman/man of their dreams!  It must be at least a little more shocking... but I have to add that my post break up pain seems to be every bit as horrible and intense as everyone else's out there.  It's just as hurtful and takes just as long to get over.  These relationships, for some reason, have a way of hurting you really really bad.  I have dumped women and been dumped before but nothing ever hurt quite as much as my BPD relationship and the ensuing break up.

Avoidatallcost,

I totally agree with you. Breaking up with BPDs are extremely difficult and painful. It has taken me about 6 months to feel just a little better. However, just one look at her photo will set me back for another day or 2.  I have been dumped by my nonBPD girl friend before, but it was not even remotely as painful as this one.
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« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 05:29:31 PM »

because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

But if the BP has experienced abandonment throughout his or her adolescence and adult life, and they have survived each and every encounter, why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

May be because they are addicted to this attachment/abandonment drama, much like someone who is addicted to drugs?
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hijodeganas
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« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 06:11:30 PM »

Excerpt
Emotional extremes; anger rather than upset, joy rather than happiness; sudden and inexplicable mood changes.

thanks for the laugh.  But sorry for you that his has been your "considerable experience with women".  I'm sure you already know that this isn't the description of all women and their emotions.

That is funny though.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.   
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« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2012, 06:26:06 PM »

because of the lack of separation/individuation.  :)rugs are not the cure.

Drugging the fear of abandonment would only cause a permanent failure to separate/individuate. The best thing for a Borderline is to go through abandonment and realize that they can survive on their own.

But if the BP has experienced abandonment throughout his or her adolescence and adult life, and they have survived each and every encounter, why don't they ever come to realize that they can indeed go through abandonment, survive, and therefore get over the one major crux of their disorder?

May be because they are addicted to this attachment/abandonment drama, much like someone who is addicted to drugs?

I've heard this too somewhere... but is it that BP's are addicted to reliving their attachment/abandonment drama over and over again, or do they relive it because of their "amnesia," you know the kind of amnesia that makes them repeat their chaotic relationships over and over again?
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« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2012, 06:46:50 PM »

Excerpt
Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.  barfy

Oh gosh, there was no impressiveness, and of course it isn't your duty.  I most apologize if you perceived my post offensive, it was certainly not intended - not in any way.   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2012, 06:51:37 PM »

Excerpt
Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.  barfy

Oh gosh, there was no impressiveness, and of course it isn't your duty.  I most apologize if you perceived my post offensive, it was certainly not intended - not in any way.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Now now guys there's no need for arguing here, after all we're no longer with our borderlines!

I can relate to what hijo is saying I too had had my fair share of difficult women and was confident that I was experienced enough to handle my BP.  Sadly, I was wrong.  Nobody can handle them.  You can be the most handsome, confident, understanding man or the most beautiful sweet woman. It doesn't matter who you are or how kind you are or how rich you are.  Their fears and self defense mechanisms are too deeply ingrained for anyone to overcome through intelligence, love, or charm.  

The only way any normal man or woman can effectively "handle" a BP is  by leaving them.  
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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2012, 07:06:52 PM »

I've heard this too somewhere... but is it that BP's are addicted to reliving their attachment/abandonment drama over and over again, or do they relive it because of their "amnesia," you know the kind of amnesia that makes them repeat their chaotic relationships over and over again?

I had now 2 crazy women, one diagnoses BPD one PD(whatever kind)... .

Its "amnesia" for sure and ya they live just in the present moment! Well I can just speak for my ex, her emotions were kind of controlling her to a maximum level! Every little thing... mimic, words, body language was triggering her in some way. She had no capacity in her brain to grow during experiences like normal people do.  My  exgf really tought about to go back to her ex-boyfriend, who wanted to commit suicide because of her. Drama Baby Give me Drama!
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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2012, 07:28:44 PM »

Excerpt
Oh, sorry. I thought you were just curious to hear a few examples. I didn't know it was my duty to impress you.  barfy

Oh gosh, there was no impressiveness, and of course it isn't your duty.  I most apologize if you perceived my post offensive, it was certainly not intended - not in any way.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

No problem. I reread your response and realized I may have misinterpreted. My apologies for that.

I've had my share of emotionally healthy, mature women as well. That's been the majority of my experience. But I spent a few years learning "pick up" and seduction and such and have also encountered the opposite side of the spectrum as well. I thought I had a good idea of how potentially emotionally volatile a woman can become. My uBPDex taught me otherwise.
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2012, 07:36:02 PM »

It's less like an addiction to drugs and more like a fear of the unknown. The abandonment cycle is comfort because it's knowable. Dealing with abandonment anxiety is unknown, therefore frightening. It's a loss, much like death. I believe dealing with emotions that have been surpressed since childhood is equivalent of dying, in a sense. The end result is unknown and therefore fearful.

Not to mention their whole (lack of?) identity has been built around the push-pull dynamic. If they were to give that up, who are they? That whole highly dramatic behavior has become their life, much like a "rescuer" defines him or herself by the drama and trying to save the unsaveable. If you give up your identity, your whole story, who/what are you? That's also a loss; a loss of your self. The idea of having to recreate yourself from nothing is daunting to anyone, BPD or otherwise. The majority of us would prefer to stay comfortable.
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