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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Why they seem happier than we are  (Read 8186 times)
DownandOut
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« on: December 05, 2013, 10:58:29 AM »

I recently read an interesting article here www.huffingtonpost.com/hippo-reads/success-and-motivation_b_4357669.html that describes lying to oneself as a way to make ourselves happier. I, personally, think it's disingenuous because I am a truth-seeker and an intellectual who relies on my analytical skills to get through life. Nevertheless, the article makes some interesting points and I couldn't help but apply it to my situation with my uBPDexgf. There's a lot of discussion on these boards about our pwBPD's ability to shut down their emotions and convince themselves that we've done them wrong so that they don't have to feel the shame and regret of their behavior.  Unlike my pwBPD, I'm the kind of person that deals in reality. Unfortunately, in light of that article, it appears that science has backed up the idea that lying to ourselves and using that defense mechanism we're all equipped with helps us to be happier. I'm not advocating suppressing our thoughts or emotions like our pwBPDs; however, I do think that the article brings up some interesting ideas that may help us heal a little better. What does everyone think?
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beautifuldisaster123

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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 11:15:37 AM »

They are not happy. They would like you to think that they are. They would never admit to making bad choices or taking the blame for anything it's a defense mechanism.

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beautifuldisaster123

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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 11:16:42 AM »

At least in my experience it's ignore runaway pretend like it didn't happen and not care about who got hurt in the process.
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DownandOut
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 11:24:53 AM »

BD,

I agree. However, the point I was making was that science has actually backed up the fact that they at least think they are happier because they are constantly lying to themselves.
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 11:40:52 AM »

My ex lied to me regularly. I told her it seemed like she was living a lie. So she lies to herself... .I'll buy that. If I don't believe her lies then who is she lying to. One of us always lies and the other always tells the truth... .She's lying.
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 12:52:38 PM »

Oh, the ever recurring question: Are they better off?

I, for one, am not buying the regular answer that it is just a facade.

Please do not judge my sarcasm. I am alone, down and half-drunk. While she is somewhere partying, getting validated and living the life I once had.

When I think back, I was often a tool to be used to soothe. And I can remember how it was. Spending hours, weekends... .soothing, just to send her on her merry way to create more destruction. And so it is almost certain there is someone else now doing the soothing if needed. Would I do it again? Probably, I do not want to spend the rest of my life in fear of clinical insanity. Maybe my next would need no soothing, maybe soothing would be justifiable and lead to greater connection, but I do not think I will ever have the strength to turn my back to someone in need.

But the destruction inflicted upon my spirit and soul is real and even if she lies down some evening in discomfort, it is not comparable to 24/7 agony I have to live through. In fact, all the misery she will ever truly feel in her life added would probably not equal what I already had to go through.

There will be no recompense, no justice, no karma and no balance. Ever.

Truly sorry for negativity, but I am currently so broken it's ridiculous.  :'(
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damage control
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 02:13:16 PM »

I should preface by saying that I haven't read the article so perhaps I am just having a misinformed and knee-jerk reaction here but ... .I am inclined to think/say that there is a MASSIVE difference between the lies that most people tell themselves (and I am of the opinion that none of us is truly grounded in 'reality' -whatever that means- 24/7).

For example ... .I may hear or read about famine/war/catastrophe in a foreign country and feel terrible for those in the aftermath. I may truly 'wish and hope' that things turn out OK and they are able to move on and heal. Perhaps this country is desperate for volunteers to go there and contribute their time or are asking for financial aid to help survivors. I most probably do neither. The 'lie' I tell myself is that I am too busy/whatever to go and help and that I cannot 'afford' to donate monetarily to help. If I was brutally honest, I would have to admit that, if pushed, I could perhaps do both of these - in 'reality', I choose not to.

It's an extreme example ... .but I think we tell ourselves lies of convenience every single day - we would go nuts otherwise - the world is a brutal place if you want to look it square in the eye every day ... .we need a filter.

BUT ... I see this as entirely different from the systematic deception and lies of (my) ex and his ilk. His/their lies are predicated on the want/need (and yes, I do think want is in that mix) to have their own way, control those around them and have their own needs met - AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

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goldylamont
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 02:44:26 PM »

well, here's the deal--pwBPD tend to be selfish and only care about feeling good themselves. and the fact that so many of them do the exact same thing--finding a new victim at the drop of a hat; boasting about overblown romances over and over and over... .well, yeah i'm sure this makes them feel good to some extent. i'm sure if you're a cheater or a liar and you hate yourself that it feels really good to say that it's other people who are the problem, and yeah i'm sure it feels good to act like you're someone with integrity and as if you care about someone new when you know you're just going to use them and move on and repeat the cycle. i would agree and say yes, that it does bring some type of relief or sense of power to pwBPD to do all of these things--as selfish as they are, they wouldn't do them unless it made them feel good.

but, am i mad that i can't and won't do the same to try and be happy? no. am i jealous of them while they act like lunatics? no. does this mean i may go through pain initially because i choose to face reality rather than try and dupe one person after the next to run away from reality? yes. but i'm fine with this. i'll accept the pain actually--because i'm far stronger and courageous than anyone who chooses to run and abuse others. and i'm not saying this in some halmark card kind of way. i truly do feel like these people are just weak--not the totality of them but the disordered BPD part of their psyche.

they were abused. so now they abuse others. this is the closest they will get to happiness. to me this is just sad, but hey it is what it is.

we were abused by them--but do we abuse others in return?

i guess what i'm saying is that even though i know my ex is full of isht and tries to boost her own ego at the expense of countless others; i could care less in a sense. yeah i know it's working for her, but it doesn't make me afraid. i know i can feel better than she ever will and not have to be an a$$hole in the process  Smiling (click to insert in post) and that's true strength, based in reality   
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 03:03:28 PM »

I recently read an interesting article here www.huffingtonpost.com/hippo-reads/success-and-motivation_b_4357669.html that describes lying to oneself as a way to make ourselves happier. I, personally, think it's disingenuous because I am a truth-seeker and an intellectual who relies on my analytical skills to get through life. Nevertheless, the article makes some interesting points and I couldn't help but apply it to my situation with my uBPDexgf. There's a lot of discussion on these boards about our pwBPD's ability to shut down their emotions and convince themselves that we've done them wrong so that they don't have to feel the shame and regret of their behavior.  Unlike my pwBPD, I'm the kind of person that deals in reality. Unfortunately, in light of that article, it appears that science has backed up the idea that lying to ourselves and using that defense mechanism we're all equipped with helps us to be happier. I'm not advocating suppressing our thoughts or emotions like our pwBPDs; however, I do think that the article brings up some interesting ideas that may help us heal a little better. What does everyone think?

I did read the article. It was interesting.  And I suggest people read it (it is short) so they can respond to the intent of the poster, as opposed to reciting the rhetoric we have learned on this site.

The point of the article, from my perspective, is successful people "deceive themselves" into success. Or, people who refuse to accept "reality" and who create their own, often succeed. Or, reframing a negative into a positive has advantages.

I find it interesting because I am rethinking things for myself. We are all here whining about how our ex's moved on and seem happy. And we are whining because they have moved on while we are stuck in a perpetual hell. Which seems healthier?

One thing that seems to strike me about people who supposedly have BPD, is they rarely stay in any situation where their needs (whatever those are) are not being met. Is that nutty? Or, maybe that is freakin normal? 

Maybe we are the ones with the problem cuz we stay mired in the muck?

I'm not saying our ex's don't have problems. They do. And, we have problems for staying with them when our needs aren't being met, or when they treated us badly, or when they <insertpreference here>.

Maybe we need to be reframing things for ourselves to serve ourselves. Maybe we need to deceive ourselves into happiness.

Cognitive theory postulates that if you want to feel differently, you need to think differently. Food for thought.

Thanks Down for sharing this article.

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DownandOut
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 03:07:25 PM »

well, here's the deal--pwBPD tend to be selfish and only care about feeling good themselves. and the fact that so many of them do the exact same thing--finding a new victim at the drop of a hat; boasting about overblown romances over and over and over... .well, yeah i'm sure this makes them feel good to some extent. i'm sure if you're a cheater or a liar and you hate yourself that it feels really good to say that it's other people who are the problem, and yeah i'm sure it feels good to act like you're someone with integrity and as if you care about someone new when you know you're just going to use them and move on and repeat the cycle. i would agree and say yes, that it does bring some type of relief or sense of power to pwBPD to do all of these things--as selfish as they are, they wouldn't do them unless it made them feel good.

but, am i mad that i can't and won't do the same to try and be happy? no. am i jealous of them while they act like lunatics? no. does this mean i may go through pain initially because i choose to face reality rather than try and dupe one person after the next to run away from reality? yes. but i'm fine with this. i'll accept the pain actually--because i'm far stronger and courageous than anyone who chooses to run and abuse others. and i'm not saying this in some halmark card kind of way. i truly do feel like these people are just weak--not the totality of them but the disordered BPD part of their psyche.

they were abused. so now they abuse others. this is the closest they will get to happiness. to me this is just sad, but hey it is what it is.

we were abused by them--but do we abuse others in return?

i guess what i'm saying is that even though i know my ex is full of isht and tries to boost her own ego at the expense of countless others; i could care less in a sense. yeah i know it's working for her, but it doesn't make me afraid. i know i can feel better than she ever will and not have to be an a$$hole in the process  Smiling (click to insert in post) and that's true strength, based in reality   

All good points. I think for me it's about being frustrated that she could just turn off her feelings for me that I believed were real and then move on to some new shmo and at least feel happy even if it's temporary and she has to leave a path of destruction in her wake to achieve it. I'm not envious, but the way I feel right now I wish I had that same safety valve that she has. I wish I could stop the pain I'm feeling with some cheap bandaid. I tried, believe me. I've dated, but I'm not there yet. I hope I will be one day because since I met my uBPDexgf, my life has never been the same.
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DownandOut
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 03:12:38 PM »

I recently read an interesting article here www.huffingtonpost.com/hippo-reads/success-and-motivation_b_4357669.html that describes lying to oneself as a way to make ourselves happier. I, personally, think it's disingenuous because I am a truth-seeker and an intellectual who relies on my analytical skills to get through life. Nevertheless, the article makes some interesting points and I couldn't help but apply it to my situation with my uBPDexgf. There's a lot of discussion on these boards about our pwBPD's ability to shut down their emotions and convince themselves that we've done them wrong so that they don't have to feel the shame and regret of their behavior.  Unlike my pwBPD, I'm the kind of person that deals in reality. Unfortunately, in light of that article, it appears that science has backed up the idea that lying to ourselves and using that defense mechanism we're all equipped with helps us to be happier. I'm not advocating suppressing our thoughts or emotions like our pwBPDs; however, I do think that the article brings up some interesting ideas that may help us heal a little better. What does everyone think?

I did read the article. It was interesting.  And I suggest people read it (it is short) so they can respond to the intent of the poster, as opposed to reciting the rhetoric we have learned on this site.

The point of the article, from my perspective, is successful people "deceive themselves" into success. Or, people who refuse to accept "reality" and who create their own, often succeed. Or, reframing a negative into a positive has advantages.

I find it interesting because I am rethinking things for myself. We are all here whining about how our ex's moved on and seem happy. And we are whining because they have moved on while we are stuck in a perpetual hell. Which seems healthier?

One thing that seems to strike me about people who supposedly have BPD, is they rarely stay in any situation where their needs (whatever those are) are not being met. Is that nutty? Or, maybe that is freakin normal? 

Maybe we are the ones with the problem cuz we stay mired in the muck?

I'm not saying our ex's don't have problems. They do. And, we have problems for staying with them when our needs aren't being met, or when they treated us badly, or when they <insertpreference here>.

Maybe we need to be reframing things for ourselves to serve ourselves. Maybe we need to deceive ourselves into happiness.

Cognitive theory postulates that if you want to feel differently, you need to think differently. Food for thought.

Thanks Down for sharing this article.


Thank you Alliance for your response. It was exactly the type of response I was looking for when I posted it. I wondered the same thing myself, should I lie, or at least turn the thoughts I'm having around like she does. The question is do we need to shape our thoughts to fit our own narrative the way a pwBPD does to actually feel happy, even if it isn't true? I'm not so sure it wouldn't be helpful to us as nons who've suffered through this type of r/s.
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alliance
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 04:04:46 PM »

Thank you Alliance for your response. It was exactly the type of response I was looking for when I posted it. I wondered the same thing myself, should I lie, or at least turn the thoughts I'm having around like she does. The question is do we need to shape our thoughts to fit our own narrative the way a pwBPD does to actually feel happy, even if it isn't true? I'm not so sure it wouldn't be helpful to us as nons who've suffered through this type of r/s.

Down, I am still trying to figure this out for myself.

I don't know that I consider "reframing" to be lying. If I shift my thinking from my ex done me wrong to something like I deserve to be happy... .is that lying? If I shift from my ex destroyed my self esteem to I am a worthy person with good points and bad points... .is that lying?

And, as I am not mentally ill, I don't consider it to be comparable to anything my disordered ex might do.

I also find reframing to be empowering. So much of this process is focusing on our ex's, what BPD is, how it affects them and us, how to deal with it, how to walk away from it... .it just seems to be a huge focus on them. It is like they continue to control our thoughts and monopolize our energy, and they aren't even around anymore. It is empowering to shift the focus back onto ourselves, what we want, what we need, what makes us happy etc.

I think the other thing on my mind lately, is we can benefit from being more self centered, self absorbed in life. It is our life. It is our happiness. It is ours to do as we wish. We have the right to be selfish. It is healthy for us to be selfish to an extent. To not be selfish means waiting for someone else or some of the gods or fate to bring happiness to us. That's not even logical. Actually it borders on magical thinking.

I have no idea where I am going with this. Something is shifting in me and I think it is a good thing.

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Perfidy
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 04:15:02 PM »

Ok... I went back and read the article... .What hit me first about deceiving myself to be happy is the fact that I was doing exactly that in my relationship with my exBPDgf. I was lying to myself. Now I need to lie to myself more to be happy again. Seems like everything has to be a lie. What happened to self honesty? To thine own self be true. I know several successful people that aren't happy. My self included... .I'm not happy all of the time. Sometimes I am. When I achieve my happieness I won't have to blow smoke up my own ass. My ex... Who gives a crap about her phony bologna bull honky
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 04:38:12 PM »

This is a very good point and I think it is a lot more complex than simply lying to yourself.  The human body needs to grieve when sadness strikes.  The mind needs to heal when it is damaged.  We are doing these things.  The are not.  What is the end result?  I don't know but ultimately I think we will be happier in the future because we are able to feel and give love.  Isn't that what life is about?  We live and we love.  Sometimes because we love we get hurt.  It reminds me of the Garth Brooks song "The Dance".  I am glad that I can listen to that song and feel pain right now.  I think at some point we need to pick ourselves up by the boot straps and move on.  When do we do this?  Another good question.

They can lie to themselves but it will eventually catch up to them in the form of chronic illnesses, depression, anxiety and for some suicide.   Bottom line is that we are all eventually better off getting away from these people.  They are just a drain on anyone associated with them. 
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 05:28:09 PM »

This thread has tickled my mind, made me think and smile - and I haven't even read the article yet! Love it when a new paradigm shifting perspective drops out of nowhere. Just what I need right now. Off to read the article.

Thanks
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2013, 05:48:24 PM »

But the destruction inflicted upon my spirit and soul is real and even if she lies down some evening in discomfort, it is not comparable to 24/7 agony I have to live through. In fact, all the misery she will ever truly feel in her life added would probably not equal what I already had to go through.

There will be no recompense, no justice, no karma and no balance. Ever.

Truly sorry for negativity, but I am currently so broken it's ridiculous.  :'(

my sympathies, 481. i'm in exactly the same place.
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2013, 09:04:35 PM »

I should preface by saying that I haven't read the article so perhaps I am just having a misinformed and knee-jerk reaction here but ... .I am inclined to think/say that there is a MASSIVE difference between the lies that most people tell themselves (and I am of the opinion that none of us is truly grounded in 'reality' -whatever that means- 24/7).

For example ... .I may hear or read about famine/war/catastrophe in a foreign country and feel terrible for those in the aftermath. I may truly 'wish and hope' that things turn out OK and they are able to move on and heal. Perhaps this country is desperate for volunteers to go there and contribute their time or are asking for financial aid to help survivors. I most probably do neither. The 'lie' I tell myself is that I am too busy/whatever to go and help and that I cannot 'afford' to donate monetarily to help. If I was brutally honest, I would have to admit that, if pushed, I could perhaps do both of these - in 'reality', I choose not to.

It's an extreme example ... .but I think we tell ourselves lies of convenience every single day - we would go nuts otherwise - the world is a brutal place if you want to look it square in the eye every day ... .we need a filter.

BUT ... I see this as entirely different from the systematic deception and lies of (my) ex and his ilk. His/their lies are predicated on the want/need (and yes, I do think want is in that mix) to have their own way, control those around them and have their own needs met - AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.

That was deep, Damage Control. Very insightful. I think this is exactly what happens.
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2013, 09:54:36 PM »

Interesting article. It leads to one question, why the need to lie to oneself to begin with? A lie is a lie. Can you, me, or anyone else on here honestly be able to look at oneself in the mirror after we have lied to ourselves to make us feel a little bit happier? For me, I cannot.
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Changingman
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 04:30:51 AM »

Oh, the ever recurring question: Are they better off?

I, for one, am not buying the regular answer that it is just a facade.

Please do not judge my sarcasm. I am alone, down and half-drunk. While she is somewhere partying, getting validated and living the life I once had.

When I think back, I was often a tool to be used to soothe. And I can remember how it was. Spending hours, weekends... .soothing, just to send her on her merry way to create more destruction. And so it is almost certain there is someone else now doing the soothing if needed. Would I do it again? Probably, I do not want to spend the rest of my life in fear of clinical insanity. Maybe my next would need no soothing, maybe soothing would be justifiable and lead to greater connection, but I do not think I will ever have the strength to turn my back to someone in need.

But the destruction inflicted upon my spirit and soul is real and even if she lies down some evening in discomfort, it is not comparable to 24/7 agony I have to live through. In fact, all the misery she will ever truly feel in her life added would probably not equal what I already had to go through.

There will be no recompense, no justice, no karma and no balance. Ever.

Truly sorry for negativity, but I am currently so broken it's ridiculous.  :'(

Right,

I'm sorry I can't let this go, Son you are hurting... .toxic hateful destroyed hurt. They have damaged you, physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually and spiritually.

They leave their poison in us and we feel like them for a while. It's like some voodoo where they are healed by transferring their sickness to us.

You sound like a pitiful waif, this is how they justify their hideous treatment of those around them. You must start to treat yourself like a human being, not like an abuser and victim in one.

Life has to be lived with courage friend... .

Get yourself clean from the demons that stalk you, demons put into you by others.

Love to you, accept it, love yourself, become it

You will be stronger, wiser, better

Hell, you may even be happy


Good luck
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 05:37:50 AM »

Oh, the ever recurring question: Are they better off?

I, for one, am not buying the regular answer that it is just a facade.

Please do not judge my sarcasm. I am alone, down and half-drunk. While she is somewhere partying, getting validated and living the life I once had.

When I think back, I was often a tool to be used to soothe. And I can remember how it was. Spending hours, weekends... .soothing, just to send her on her merry way to create more destruction. And so it is almost certain there is someone else now doing the soothing if needed. Would I do it again? Probably, I do not want to spend the rest of my life in fear of clinical insanity. Maybe my next would need no soothing, maybe soothing would be justifiable and lead to greater connection, but I do not think I will ever have the strength to turn my back to someone in need.

But the destruction inflicted upon my spirit and soul is real and even if she lies down some evening in discomfort, it is not comparable to 24/7 agony I have to live through. In fact, all the misery she will ever truly feel in her life added would probably not equal what I already had to go through.

There will be no recompense, no justice, no karma and no balance. Ever.

Truly sorry for negativity, but I am currently so broken it's ridiculous.  :'(

My soul was nearly completely destroyed too. I sat in a room with urine bottles and cigarette butts everywhere, not showering and drinking every day for a month. I thought I was the most useless piece of crap in the world. I came out of it, you can too. I'm so sorry for what you have been through. You deserved so much more.

I actually believe the opposite though, there is karma. They are in a mental hell and have been their entire lives. They are good actresses and pretenders, what you see is an illusion, don't buy it. They know the truth, even if they can't handle being attacked for it. They also have no stability in their lives and never will, unless they get a lot of treatment.
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2013, 05:45:29 AM »

I actually believe the opposite. They are in a mental hell and have been their entire lives. They are good actresses and pretenders, what you see is an illusion, don't buy it. They know the truth, even if they can't handle being attacked for it.

I agree. I watched my exBPD suffer for years locked up in her room for months at a time. I got a lot of calls and I can tell that it is NOT fun... .especially not at the end of the day when they realize what they've done.
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2013, 07:16:40 AM »

Great article, thanks for sharing. 

I personally do not think they are happier.   Their "needs" were not being met so they jump to another "host".

Their needs will never be met.  They are an endless pit of needs that change faster than anyone can possibly process. 

Plus their needs change on the dime. 

They don't even know what they want. 

I think a lot of it is their "ideal" of the new person.  Their fantasy of this new person saving them when they cannot save themselves. 

I got blamed for not being "present" in my last relationship.  After being dumped 6x in close to two years I became numb.  I wanted her to make friends (something she didn't have-red flag) and I kept busy and encouraged her to do so. 

I got left for one of those friends. 

In a good relationship (non BPD) there is trust on both sides.  I trusted her until she violated it and left me for an ex. 

I remember our last conversation... .the one that painted me blacker than black. 

I said "you are uncapable of loving someone fully"

She responded, "I'm fine with myself, thanks. "

I responded, "at least someone is"

It was mean but true. 

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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2013, 07:34:04 AM »

Think how you feel/felt when coming out of the RS... .that is them, how they feel, what they try to hide, to repress.

They are in hell... .
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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 11:50:39 AM »

My ex wasnt happier after round 1. When we got back together in a rare discussion on her feelings she told me she knew she had made a mistake leaving within 3 weeks but her pride stopped her coming back. She told me she was unhappy and missed me in secret and thought of me most days. She slept in my shirts. When I went back for round 2 ALL my things were exactly as I had left them, I asked why, she said coz they are yours! I asked did my replacement not get annoyed with my things everywhere? She said yes, but so what? She wasnt happy. She isnt happy now! She will pretend she is and I will toughen up and wait till she wants to re engage again and this time she can f#/@ right off!

They are not happy!
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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 12:32:23 PM »

Oh, the ever recurring question: Are they better off?

I, for one, am not buying the regular answer that it is just a facade.

Please do not judge my sarcasm. I am alone, down and half-drunk. While she is somewhere partying, getting validated and living the life I once had.

When I think back, I was often a tool to be used to soothe. And I can remember how it was. Spending hours, weekends... .soothing, just to send her on her merry way to create more destruction. And so it is almost certain there is someone else now doing the soothing if needed. Would I do it again? Probably, I do not want to spend the rest of my life in fear of clinical insanity. Maybe my next would need no soothing, maybe soothing would be justifiable and lead to greater connection, but I do not think I will ever have the strength to turn my back to someone in need.

But the destruction inflicted upon my spirit and soul is real and even if she lies down some evening in discomfort, it is not comparable to 24/7 agony I have to live through. In fact, all the misery she will ever truly feel in her life added would probably not equal what I already had to go through.

There will be no recompense, no justice, no karma and no balance. Ever.

Truly sorry for negativity, but I am currently so broken it's ridiculous.  :'(

I feel like this too. I know they are theoretically suffering more than us, but my BPDexh is in complete denial that he has a problem. He self medicates with weed, and is with my replacement, partying, and as far as I understand, the decade of our marriage is erased from his mind. He comes from a faith where the belief is that life is predetermined so he is able to just think 'it was meant to be this way,' and move on without a backward glance. For him to suffer, he would have to be thinking a lot more deeply and possess a much greater self awareness than I believe him to be capable of.

While I'm here, suffering. Mostly, I think it is our self awareness and the need to grieve our loss that causes the majority of that pain.

The article reminded me of the whole 'power of positive thinking' and I've read a lot that for some people, that just doesn't work for some people. I think the idea of deceiving our way to happiness by reframing things is probably the same. For Some people it probably works a treat, for others, less so. Even if it was just a facade, I wish I could just drag myself out of how I feel, even if that meant lying to myself a little.

But as I think we all know, our minds aren't quite so easily deceived. If only they were!

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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2013, 12:34:08 PM »

Downandout,

The article you posted links to another interesting article:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200811/essential-secrets-psychotherapy-truth-lies-and-self-deception

The author focuses on "my baggage a deux" (which is interesting but not really applicable to this thread) but he also discusses the concept of cognitive dissonance,.  This is basically self-deception that seem to occur on a spectrum, all the way from delusion to denial.  We all experience cognitive dissonance every day and it occurs on an unconscious level.  We do it b/c  "unadulterated confrontation with the truth about oneself is almost always initially experienced as an insult to the ego--a devastating blow to our narcissism."

So it's really not about happiness, IMO.  It's about preserving our sense of self.  This self-deception is probably more pronounced in pwBPD (or NPD) b/c their sense of self is so fragile.
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« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2013, 12:58:58 PM »

Maybe someone has already mentioned this.

The average person has the ability to see black and white, and grey in people. They can see different perspectives or at least understand that a perspective (or frame) can change. pwBPD lie to themselves in a more dissociative/psychotic manner. They can't see the black/white/grey, just black or white, separately.

Big difference between seeing the social/environmental factors in some of your personal problems and blaming your personal problems 100% on other people.
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hergestridge
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2013, 04:12:40 AM »

"Lying to yourself" (as in the article posted) is nothing abnormal or destructive. Healthy people do it. I do it and my BPD wife does it.

But my BPD wife does it in inadequate situations and she does it too often.

An example: she prefers to forget her past failures, going as far as convincing herself that they didn't happen or that the failures were the result of some external factor (not true, but the explanation reduces pain). As a result, learning doesn't happen and my wife fails to solve the same problem/task over and over because of her failure to learn.

I only "lie to myself" when I know it's safe and deep down I know the truth. There's an awareness. With my wife it's a self-suggestion sometimes ending with her erasing the unwanted event from her memory bank altogether.

Sorry for posting on the "leaving" board, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in on the subject of "lying to yourself" as related to BPD. Great subject!
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Cardinals in Flight
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2013, 06:52:25 AM »

Oh, the ever recurring question: Are they better off?

I, for one, am not buying the regular answer that it is just a facade.

Please do not judge my sarcasm. I am alone, down and half-drunk. While she is somewhere partying, getting validated and living the life I once had.

When I think back, I was often a tool to be used to soothe. And I can remember how it was. Spending hours, weekends... .soothing, just to send her on her merry way to create more destruction. And so it is almost certain there is someone else now doing the soothing if needed. Would I do it again? Probably, I do not want to spend the rest of my life in fear of clinical insanity. Maybe my next would need no soothing, maybe soothing would be justifiable and lead to greater connection, but I do not think I will ever have the strength to turn my back to someone in need.

But the destruction inflicted upon my spirit and soul is real and even if she lies down some evening in discomfort, it is not comparable to 24/7 agony I have to live through. In fact, all the misery she will ever truly feel in her life added would probably not equal what I already had to go through.

There will be no recompense, no justice, no karma and no balance. Ever.

Truly sorry for negativity, but I am currently so broken it's ridiculous.  :'(

I am where you are  :'( :'(, so broken its ridiculous.
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2013, 08:12:36 AM »

Had I not experienced my exUBPDgf returning to me 3 months after first discarding me, I would have been of the mind frame too of the belief that she was happy in the timeframe after leaving me. When I let her back in for round 2, and allowed her back into my social media(fb/IG I had her blocked in the NC between both rounds), I read through her posts from that time period. All that I saw was fake happiness with the re idealization of me as time progressed up until she returned to me in round 2. It was there sprinkled throughout her social media. In devaluation period in round 2, I experienced the same exact fake happiness being projected as she systematically destroyed my self esteem via fb/IG. This time, it was under the guise of "personal development" and that f¥cking self help book "The Secret", which promotes "positive thinking and attracting positive energy instead of negative"( Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). I have to laugh/cry/scream at the sheer hypocrisy of that. I was the MOST positive person in her life. I accepted her AS SHE REALLY IS, disordered. And she still discarded me. What makes me think, and for that matter, all of you as well, that mine and yours, are really happy now after leaving us/or you having left them? I bent and contorted myself(not healthy I know) in all shapes and sizes to make her happy and she still f¥cking discarded me, I will assume it was not that different for most of you. After all of that, what makes me think anyone else could make her happy(if she replaced me), if even with all of that, I couldn't make a dent? She isn't happy. Apologies for my rant. Needed to let that out.
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maxen
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2013, 12:19:36 PM »

I accepted her AS SHE REALLY IS, disordered. And she still discarded me. What makes me think, and for that matter, all of you as well, that mine and yours, are really happy now after leaving us/or you having left them?

speaks right to my situation. i knew she was selfish, and had a weight problem, etc etc, and i committed to her and stayed with her still. but, she said, she "didn't feel cherished" and was wounded that i "only tolerated" things about her. well when you pass out from alcohol and are disorganized to the point where you lose your souse's mail i can't love it. i can accept it but i can't love it. yet the merest sign of disapproval, the merest suggestion that she owes me support too, was fatal.

what makes me think she's happy? that she said she is, and that we - including she - are NC for 9 weeks. yes she floated the idea of reconciliation - while living with her paramour even (5+ months now) - so we met and just seeing me set her off (and no ownership of her campaign of deceit, of course). on this i agree with some of 481's comments, our pain is so so much worse than any pain they're feeling.
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2013, 12:44:18 PM »

The b/w thinking again. When we say we love them as they are they think we love all the crap and negativity too. Part of DBT is learning to accept that people have good and bad sides. A BPD person can't accept that a person "puts up" with some of their bad sides (and there are usually a few). They have this idea that a partner should love them 100% or ___ off. They often think that other people live in relationships where they are loved 100%. Bpd people demand the impossible from a romantic partner. It's part of the illness.
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2013, 01:20:31 PM »

I was married for 14 years and was pretty unhappy the last few years. I worked with my pwBPD for about three years during the end of my marriage. She subtly seduced me the last year or so of my marriage. I didn't even realize this until a month or so ago. I started seeing her a few months after I left my wife. Did I mourn the death of my 14 year marriage?  No.  I was too wrapped up in a new person who I thought I was falling in love with.

My point is that I was thinking ahead and not in the past. My ex wife could not believe I could just throw away a 14 year marriage so fast. My guess is that our pwBPD are always thinking ahead. I think my ex BPD is a master at burying the past and moving forward. She lived her life very much in compartments.  It makes it much easier to discard old trash. I don't think she has given much thought about me after 4 months of NC.

I do believe the lack of grieving does take a toll on their bodies. They are human and the body needs to grieve and recover. Piling on stress on top of stress without resolving it will create chronic physical issues and increased mental stress.

The bottom line is that we are able to have something that they can not. We can hope for a lasting relationship of sharing love and compassion. We will ultimately be much happier than them. We have punched out ticket to get OFF the Merry Go Round while they are permanently trapped on the never ending ride of insanity. That ride probably gets really old and would take a toll on anyone's sanity.
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maxen
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2013, 02:41:13 PM »

They often think that other people live in relationships where they are loved 100%. Bpd people demand the impossible from a romantic partner. It's part of the illness.

hergestridge i think that's exactly right.
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2013, 07:01:10 AM »

I accepted her AS SHE REALLY IS, disordered. And she still discarded me. What makes me think, and for that matter, all of you as well, that mine and yours, are really happy now after leaving us/or you having left them?

speaks right to my situation. i knew she was selfish, and had a weight problem, etc etc, and i committed to her and stayed with her still. but, she said, she "didn't feel cherished" and was wounded that i "only tolerated" things about her. well when you pass out from alcohol and are disorganized to the point where you lose your souse's mail i can't love it. i can accept it but i can't love it. yet the merest sign of disapproval, the merest suggestion that she owes me support too, was fatal.

what makes me think she's happy? that she said she is, and that we - including she - are NC for 9 weeks. yes she floated the idea of reconciliation - while living with her paramour even (5+ months now) - so we met and just seeing me set her off (and no ownership of her campaign of deceit, of course). on this i agree with some of 481's comments, our pain is so so much worse than any pain they're feeling.

Interesting. Mine told me in devaluation that i "settle for people." Right. I told her, "YOU are the one who came back to me. Not the other way around." Her response? Silence. As f¥cking usual. That insufferable god awful silence.
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Pretty Woman
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The Greatest Love is the Love You Give Yourself


« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2013, 07:37:10 AM »

Ironman,

     Let's face it, nothing about them is real.  They hate being called out on anything. They are not responsible for anything (in their eyes). 

My ex would twist all my words and actions to suit her needs at the time. She was never fully in the relationship with me.  It was me and all her exes she kept talking to. 

She can say the demise of our relationship was my fault.  I'm not perfect.  But I never emotionally or physically cheated on her.  I never called her a bit!@ or a cun!  I never assaulted her. 

I am blessed she has cut me off and found a new victim. Maybe I can get some peace after two years of hell. 
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2013, 08:28:20 AM »

I'm just going to stick this right here.



www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html


Twenty minute video with lots of food for thought.

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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2013, 10:20:57 AM »

They often think that other people live in relationships where they are loved 100%. Bpd people demand the impossible from a romantic partner. It's part of the illness.

hergestridge i think that's exactly right.

Mine always complained that she needed a husband/partner that "adored" her, that put her on a pedestal. I tried and tried, but it seemed it was never enough.  She also always said that I deserved a better mate than her and that I was just settling. What did she truly expect of me? What does she truly expect of anyone?

Of course the beginning of the relationship was great. But towards the end it seems we just sat around and got drunk all the time. We were both enabling each other and erasing the immediacy of our problems with alcohol, but the alcohol just made things worse. Communication sober was hard enough. Despite the drinking though, I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup. She will be "adored" by them... .at first. But I'm afraid that she will keep facing the inevitable fact that relationship's initial "heat" will cool over time.
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2013, 10:52:31 AM »

They often think that other people live in relationships where they are loved 100%. Bpd people demand the impossible from a romantic partner. It's part of the illness.

hergestridge i think that's exactly right.

Mine always complained that she needed a husband/partner that "adored" her, that put her on a pedestal. I tried and tried, but it seemed it was never enough.  She also always said that I deserved a better mate than her and that I was just settling. What did she truly expect of me? What does she truly expect of anyone?

Of course the beginning of the relationship was great. But towards the end it seems we just sat around and got drunk all the time. We were both enabling each other and erasing the immediacy of our problems with alcohol, but the alcohol just made things worse. Communication sober was hard enough. Despite the drinking though, I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup. She will be "adored" by them... .at first. But I'm afraid that she will keep facing the inevitable fact that relationship's initial "heat" will cool over time.

There is that phrase of settling bestowed upon one of us. Were you dating my ex? Was I dating yours?

Earth,

I honestly think that everything about my ex was/is real. I experienced it. That is the horrifying reality of it. Her good behavior was real. Her bad behavior was real. Anyone have that  other pill that Neo was offered in the Matrix to return to the blissful ignorance of that world?
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Tincanmike
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2013, 11:06:59 AM »

They often think that other people live in relationships where they are loved 100%. Bpd people demand the impossible from a romantic partner. It's part of the illness.

hergestridge i think that's exactly right.

Mine always complained that she needed a husband/partner that "adored" her, that put her on a pedestal. I tried and tried, but it seemed it was never enough.  She also always said that I deserved a better mate than her and that I was just settling. What did she truly expect of me? What does she truly expect of anyone?

Yeah Ironman

Of course the beginning of the relationship was great. But towards the end it seems we just sat around and got drunk all the time. We were both enabling each other and erasing the immediacy of our problems with alcohol, but the alcohol just made things worse. Communication sober was hard enough. Despite the drinking though, I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup. She will be "adored" by them... .at first. But I'm afraid that she will keep facing the inevitable fact that relationship's initial "heat" will cool over time.

There is that phrase of settling bestowed upon one of us. Were you dating my ex? Was I dating yours?

Earth,

I honestly think that everything about my ex was/is real. I experienced it. That is the horrifying reality of it. Her good behavior was real. Her bad behavior was real. Anyone have that  other pill that Neo was offered in the Matrix to return to the blissful ignorance of that world?

Yeah Ironmanfalls, I think we have a carbon copy thing going here. I tried to console her that I was willing to do whatever it took, that I wasn't just settling, that I loved her and would do (put up) with anything. But don't you settle to a degree in any relationship? There could always be someone better/different out there for me. But I wanted her, no matter what. She was my first love, at a late age I guess for me. Maybe I was settling. She was insatiable. I guess I just need to meet someone who isn't so needy. She's going to keep searching for that "perfect man".  I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life. Rescuing or tolerating? This inner questioning is driving me nuts! Accepting that there might never be answers could very well be the blissful ignorance that we seek. Thanks for the validation though. It's reassuring to know that someone out there knows exactly what I've gone through and am continuing to try and process.
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maxen
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2013, 12:34:33 PM »

I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup.

the word my w used when she walked out was that she didn't feel "cherished." and i too had the feeling that no matter what i did, it wouldn't be enough. i had to face the decision, more than once, whether or not to accommodate her by doing every single thing she wanted me to do. but i strongly felt there would always be something else, so i refused often enough, and that was a fatal error of course.

mine moved on to someone else before she left. but it's interesting, later she said, being vicious by telling me, "i like what i have" and "i'm not ready to leave [place where she's living now]." no mention of the other party, but "what i have" and the place. they're consumed by their void, the reality of others' emotions doesn't factor.

I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life.

i tried to communicate to her that i was the one who married her, who covered her needs more than anyone before, that she likely never again will find anyone who will be willing as i was, and she still blew it up.
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« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2013, 02:03:38 PM »

I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup.

the word my w used when she walked out was that she didn't feel "cherished." and i too had the feeling that no matter what i did, it wouldn't be enough. i had to face the decision, more than once, whether or not to accommodate her by doing every single thing she wanted me to do. but i strongly felt there would always be something else, so i refused often enough, and that was a fatal error of course.

mine moved on to someone else before she left. but it's interesting, later she said, being vicious by telling me, "i like what i have" and "i'm not ready to leave [place where she's living now]." no mention of the other party, but "what i have" and the place. they're consumed by their void, the reality of others' emotions doesn't factor.

I wanted the things I said and did to be sincere and from the heart. I didn't want to fake affection, just for the sake of showing/proving my affection for her. I began to second guess myself. It's no wonder our sex life started to fail. I had lost confidence.

During a recycle, she asked me to make a list of the reasons I loved her.  She said that she had come back to "see" if she still had feelings for me. I wrote the list with all my heart. At the end of that short week of reconciliation, she said it just wouldn't work. I felt like a guinea pig. Some sort of laboratory animal. And within days she let me know that she was "in love" with somebody, possibly during the recycle, and had slept with yet someone else, but the guy she was in "love" with forgave her. Where was I in this whole picture? Used and abused again. Stick the knife in a little further and twist please.

I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life.

i tried to communicate to her that i was the one who married her, who covered her needs more than anyone before, that she likely never again will find anyone who will be willing as i was, and she still blew it up.

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« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2013, 02:05:30 PM »

I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup.

the word my w used when she walked out was that she didn't feel "cherished." and i too had the feeling that no matter what i did, it wouldn't be enough. i had to face the decision, more than once, whether or not to accommodate her by doing every single thing she wanted me to do. but i strongly felt there would always be something else, so i refused often enough, and that was a fatal error of course.

mine moved on to someone else before she left. but it's interesting, later she said, being vicious by telling me, "i like what i have" and "i'm not ready to leave [place where she's living now]." no mention of the other party, but "what i have" and the place. they're consumed by their void, the reality of others' emotions doesn't factor.


I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life.

i tried to communicate to her that i was the one who married her, who covered her needs more than anyone before, that she likely never again will find anyone who will be willing as i was, and she still blew it up.


From Tincan:

I wanted the things I said and did to be sincere and from the heart. I didn't want to fake affection, just for the sake of showing/proving my affection for her. I began to second guess myself. It's no wonder our sex life started to fail. I had lost confidence.

During a recycle, she asked me to make a list of the reasons I loved her.  She said that she had come back to "see" if she still had feelings for me. I wrote the list with all my heart. At the end of that short week of reconciliation, she said it just wouldn't work. I felt like a guinea pig. Some sort of laboratory animal. And within days she let me know that she was "in love" with somebody, possibly during the recycle, and had slept with yet someone else, but the guy she was in "love" with forgave her. Where was I in this whole picture? Used and abused again. Stick the knife in a little further and twist please. Tincan.
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Changingman
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« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2013, 06:10:46 PM »

I still feel that I would never "adore" her to the level she wanted. It's no wonder she's moved on to other men so quickly after our breakup.

the word my w used when she walked out was that she didn't feel "cherished." and i too had the feeling that no matter what i did, it wouldn't be enough. i had to face the decision, more than once, whether or not to accommodate her by doing every single thing she wanted me to do. but i strongly felt there would always be something else, so i refused often enough, and that was a fatal error of course.

mine moved on to someone else before she left. but it's interesting, later she said, being vicious by telling me, "i like what i have" and "i'm not ready to leave [place where she's living now]." no mention of the other party, but "what i have" and the place. they're consumed by their void, the reality of others' emotions doesn't factor.


I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life.

i tried to communicate to her that i was the one who married her, who covered her needs more than anyone before, that she likely never again will find anyone who will be willing as i was, and she still blew it up.


From Tincan:

I wanted the things I said and did to be sincere and from the heart. I didn't want to fake affection, just for the sake of showing/proving my affection for her. I began to second guess myself. It's no wonder our sex life started to fail. I had lost confidence.

During a recycle, she asked me to make a list of the reasons I loved her.  She said that she had come back to "see" if she still had feelings for me. I wrote the list with all my heart. At the end of that short week of reconciliation, she said it just wouldn't work. I felt like a guinea pig. Some sort of laboratory animal. And within days she let me know that she was "in love" with somebody, possibly during the recycle, and had slept with yet someone else, but the guy she was in "love" with forgave her. Where was I in this whole picture? Used and abused again. Stick the knife in a little further and twist please. Tincan.

No one can 'please' this stuff, no one should try. When did they please us... .ever.

As soon as they felt control leaving they flirted, punished, hurt, cheated and searched for the next.

There is no win with them, only CONTROL, the tightening of the screw.

I'm finding it hard to remember ANY time i didn't feel manipulated and a certain 'uncertainty' about any situation/stage we were in, always 'on the brink' feeling about everything.

They know it will end badly, very badly... .they know. Always ready to leave, always setting up escape relationships, sexual, emotional, exBFs, people they can offer something other than their crazy (sex). Friendships confuse them, what does anyone get from platonic friendships... .

Can't really ever know how much infidelity, hurt and destruction she rained on me. But I can search myself and try to understand why I let it happen.

I made her breakfast in bed exactly how she made it, and she flew off because I didn't use the correct pan... .amazing. She made our dogs paranoid but I hadn't trained them properly, she abandoned them like me as if they didnt exist. never asked about them, never asked how one had to be put down. nothing... .

The secret hatred she had for me is mind blowing, I turned her life around.

I really thought I would never see her again... .but I'm starting to see that when she is bored, ejected from the new man and Drunk/drugged up she will love to see if the chaos she caused is still in me. Bring back that Crazy provoking engagement they love so much. All they have really and the pretence.

BPD is such a serious, dangerous condition... .Madness lurks around the corner.

You were the best thing in her life Tincanmike? Adore her? Meet her needs?

Reread the symptoms of BPD, the Dark Stranger which is the hidden part of her was staring at you like a viper.

Good Luck moving forward, this is real work for all of us.


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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2013, 12:57:16 AM »

Great post! I read the article and listened to the associated RadioLab link and read the Lance Armstrong article. The truth of it all blindsided me like a truck pulling out of a side street and plowing into my car on some random Tuesday afternoon. 

I am sad and miserable.  I am a "good guy." I have the capacity for insight into my own person and I have character and I am... .blah, blah blah.  SHE, on the other hand, is mentally ill as categorized by the DSM IV (or possibly later editions.)  She hasn't 'character.'  She leaves a trail of destruction in her wake.  She lies to herself and others.  She lacks, or is possibly incapable of, empathy.  She is BAD.  But you know what?  She is happy.  Oh no, she isn't really happy we all shout.  Not really, she isn't capable of it.  She isn't capable of 'really' loving another person.  Well actually, she is happy.  Ok, maybe not that Dalai Lama Zen kinda happiness I am so clearly on the road to, but she's happy.  And me, not so much. 

I like to think she survives by applying temporary "band aides " to her psychological wounds.  Not me, I'm 'working on myself !" No temporary band aides for me!  Actually those last two sentences are my temporary band aides, and as I've been typing all this she is likely not so twisted up in anything beyond herself.  She is quite likely, well, happy.  Or maybe not, who knows.

The point of the articles as I see it, is that "successful" and "happy" people tend to be more capable of "lying to themselves" as judged by the researchers.  Those who lack the ability to "lie to themselves" are likely to be more depressed and finish further back in the pack. Now here is the rub which is not at all addressed in the article or associated sources- The ability to "lie to oneself" is not a choice.  My ex may make a lot of choices but self-deception is not one of them.  Conversely, could I 'choose' to lie to myself?  Of course not.  Not because of my great character, but because it isn't a choice. 

If I could make the choice to be able to deceive myself so, if someone offered me a magic pill, would I do it?  I don't know.  I think I might.  But then again, I can't.






     
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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2013, 06:49:09 AM »

the word my w used when she walked out was that she didn't feel "cherished." and i too had the feeling that no matter what i did, it wouldn't be enough. i had to face the decision, more than once, whether or not to accommodate her by doing every single thing she wanted me to do. but i strongly felt there would always be something else, so i refused often enough, and that was a fatal error of course.

mine moved on to someone else before she left.

I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life.

i tried to communicate to her that i was the one who married her, who covered her needs more than anyone before, that she likely never again will find anyone who will be willing as i was, and she still blew it up.

It still amazes me when I read something like this and it's EXACTLY the same experience I had.  Everything in bold.  My exwBPD compared my "not cherishing her enough" and her adultery at the same level of breaking our vows.  I didn't even have words to come back with on that one.  I treated her like a queen and would have given up my life for her (which essentially I did for 20 years).  She had several guys lined up before she left our home.  She's been gone almost 2.5 years, married the SOB she was having her affair with and her life is a mess with no indication that it will get anything but worse.

She only has herself to blame but of course, we all know THAT will never happen.

She abandoned our home, family, pets and everything we had together because she wasn't "happy", to which I told her "she's wouldn't ALLOW herself to be happy".    The woman refused to invest herself in our relationship or our family.  She was able to abandon her own children since she never truly bonded with either of them.

And she ran off all smiles and sunshine?   I think not and time IS taking it's toll.
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« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2013, 09:48:58 AM »

i know pwBPD are individuals too, but, like, wow, imstrong.

It still amazes me when I read something like this and it's EXACTLY the same experience I had.  Everything in bold.  My exwBPD compared my "not cherishing her enough" and her adultery at the same level of breaking our vows.  I didn't even have words to come back with on that one. 

... .

She abandoned our home, family, pets and everything we had together because she wasn't "happy", to which I told her "she's wouldn't ALLOW herself to be happy".    The woman refused to invest herself in our relationship or our family.

and i said to my stbxw that she'd never feel cherished since all she ever does is look for reasons to feel wounded. i did our laundry, the machines are in the basement, and she painted that as "taking me for granted by leaving me upstairs." i made reference to a book, a standard reference in our line of work, whose abbreviation is OCD, and she accused me of making a comment about her obsessive-compulsive disorder, a thing i believe she doesn't have. i mean this list could go on indefinitely.

but i'ts also important for me to read not only that BPDs have patterns, but that other nons react in the same way to these situations. i've been in an awful FOG, and still am. the idea that marriage brings with it mutual obligations, the first of which is honesty, isn't an emotionally ignorant thing for me to think, i have to keep telling myself. her deceit and infideltiy and bolting aren't in any way justifiable, i have to keep telling myself. the source of her actions is an emotional and moral disorder, and the actions are not just something that happens in life that i have to accept. reading accounts like yours, imstrong, helps with that.
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« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2013, 10:46:36 AM »

but i'ts also important for me to read not only that BPDs have patterns, but that other nons react in the same way to these situations. i've been in an awful FOG, and still am. the idea that marriage brings with it mutual obligations, the first of which is honesty, isn't an emotionally ignorant thing for me to think, i have to keep telling myself. her deceit and infideltiy and bolting aren't in any way justifiable, i have to keep telling myself. the source of her actions is an emotional and moral disorder, and the actions are not just something that happens in life that i have to accept.

We ABSOLUTELY DO NOT have to accept and I for one, WILL NOT accept those actions in my life ever again.

We on the non-disordered side of the coin do react in very much the same way.  I've read so many stories here and on other sites of people just like us in our situations who struggle in almost the exact same ways.  I still find myself "fogged out" at times and this is after almost 2.5 years of being away from her and a full 2 years of complete NC.  We don't communicate in any way.  She sees our S13 about once a month for maybe 30-40 minutes.  She never calls or texts between visits.  I gave her 1/2 day visitation on Thanksgiving and 1/2 day on Christmas and she's never so much as attempted to use any of that time.  The first Christmas after she left she called and talked to him for about 5 minutes and that was it.  Last Christmas it was just a text.  The irony here is that she just recently sent some text messages to our D20 complaining that our S13 doesn't want to spend any time just to be with her and blamed it on our S13.  Our D20 was so incensed that she couldn't respond or she would have blown up at her mother.    She sent our D20 these type of texts but doesn't bother to actually try to TALK to our S13.

How's that for twisted?  My daughter told me all this last Friday and I don't get as upset about this stuff any more as I used to but it ate at me all damn night and obviously, I'm still upset by it. 
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« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2013, 01:24:11 PM »

I recently read an interesting article here www.huffingtonpost.com/hippo-reads/success-and-motivation_b_4357669.html that describes lying to oneself as a way to make ourselves happier. I, personally, think it's disingenuous because I am a truth-seeker and an intellectual who relies on my analytical skills to get through life. Nevertheless, the article makes some interesting points and I couldn't help but apply it to my situation with my uBPDexgf. There's a lot of discussion on these boards about our pwBPD's ability to shut down their emotions and convince themselves that we've done them wrong so that they don't have to feel the shame and regret of their behavior.  Unlike my pwBPD, I'm the kind of person that deals in reality. Unfortunately, in light of that article, it appears that science has backed up the idea that lying to ourselves and using that defense mechanism we're all equipped with helps us to be happier. I'm not advocating suppressing our thoughts or emotions like our pwBPDs; however, I do think that the article brings up some interesting ideas that may help us heal a little better. What does everyone think?

I did read the article. It was interesting.  And I suggest people read it (it is short) so they can respond to the intent of the poster, as opposed to reciting the rhetoric we have learned on this site.

The point of the article, from my perspective, is successful people "deceive themselves" into success. Or, people who refuse to accept "reality" and who create their own, often succeed. Or, reframing a negative into a positive has advantages.

I find it interesting because I am rethinking things for myself. We are all here whining about how our ex's moved on and seem happy. And we are whining because they have moved on while we are stuck in a perpetual hell. Which seems healthier?

One thing that seems to strike me about people who supposedly have BPD, is they rarely stay in any situation where their needs (whatever those are) are not being met. Is that nutty? Or, maybe that is freakin normal? 

Maybe we are the ones with the problem cuz we stay mired in the muck?

I'm not saying our ex's don't have problems. They do. And, we have problems for staying with them when our needs aren't being met, or when they treated us badly, or when they <insertpreference here>.

Maybe we need to be reframing things for ourselves to serve ourselves. Maybe we need to deceive ourselves into happiness.

Cognitive theory postulates that if you want to feel differently, you need to think differently. Food for thought.

Thanks Down for sharing this article.


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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2013, 11:36:32 AM »

Hey all, I'm glad that this thread got the response it did because it was something that really made me think. I would have liked to respond to as many posts as I could, but I was away on business this past weekend and didn't get a chance to. Nevertheless, I'd like to respond to a few that really resonate with me.

Had I not experienced my exUBPDgf returning to me 3 months after first discarding me, I would have been of the mind frame too of the belief that she was happy in the timeframe after leaving me. When I let her back in for round 2, and allowed her back into my social media(fb/IG I had her blocked in the NC between both rounds), I read through her posts from that time period. All that I saw was fake happiness with the re idealization of me as time progressed up until she returned to me in round 2. It was there sprinkled throughout her social media. In devaluation period in round 2, I experienced the same exact fake happiness being projected as she systematically destroyed my self esteem via fb/IG. This time, it was under the guise of "personal development" and that f¥cking self help book "The Secret", which promotes "positive thinking and attracting positive energy instead of negative"( Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). I have to laugh/cry/scream at the sheer hypocrisy of that. I was the MOST positive person in her life. I accepted her AS SHE REALLY IS, disordered. And she still discarded me. What makes me think, and for that matter, all of you as well, that mine and yours, are really happy now after leaving us/or you having left them? I bent and contorted myself(not healthy I know) in all shapes and sizes to make her happy and she still f¥cking discarded me, I will assume it was not that different for most of you. After all of that, what makes me think anyone else could make her happy(if she replaced me), if even with all of that, I couldn't make a dent? She isn't happy. Apologies for my rant. Needed to let that out.

I agree that they aren't really happy, however, I think the article addresses the salient trait in many pwBPD of being able to convince themselves that what they feel is actually real. Even though I b/u with my uBPDexgf, she made it like she was b/u with me and told me that she "can't change the way she feels and she never goes against her feelings." The point is, they will convince themselves that something is the truth based on some disordered feeling they have within them. I think that they have such a strong defense mechanism of self-deception that although they aren't truly happy, they can easily convince themselves that they are based on some bs feeling they have.

From TincanMike:

"Yeah Ironmanfalls, I think we have a carbon copy thing going here. I tried to console her that I was willing to do whatever it took, that I wasn't just settling, that I loved her and would do (put up) with anything. But don't you settle to a degree in any relationship? There could always be someone better/different out there for me. But I wanted her, no matter what. She was my first love, at a late age I guess for me. Maybe I was settling. She was insatiable. I guess I just need to meet someone who isn't so needy. She's going to keep searching for that "perfect man".  I know for a fact though, that I was the best thing to come into her life. Rescuing or tolerating? This inner questioning is driving me nuts! Accepting that there might never be answers could very well be the blissful ignorance that we seek. Thanks for the validation though. It's reassuring to know that someone out there knows exactly what I've gone through and am continuing to try and process."

I am so with you about relationships in general. We do settle to some extent, because no one is perfect. Of course I could go out and try to find a new woman every night that is better than my mate at the time, but if I'm happy, why would I? My uBPDexgf was never satisfied. She's also going to be searching for that perfect man her whole life. In devaluation, I actually asked her if she wanted to go find someone better than me. Not that I would wait around, but I wanted her to acknowledge that she was looking for some movie-type of love story with the perfect man. Her response: "No, I don't want to start dating again." What the heck? That's the response I accepted? Looking back I want to smack myself in the face for not screaming at the top of my lungs at her that that was the most unacceptable answer she could have given me! I was, and still am, the best thing that ever came into her life. But what life is it? The one she pretended that she wanted to have, or the one that she has now with my replacement? What they want changes dramatically because they mirror us. I could honestly say I was perfect for her if she was who she acted as when we first started dating, but the problem is, she may or may not be that person. So I can't say whether or not I actually am perfect for her. All I know is, she will be searching for perfection for the rest of her life.

Theirdad:

I agree with your entire post in Reply #44. Thanks for that anger, it makes me feel better. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2013, 11:54:03 AM »

D&O... .I would like to point out that happiness does not come from a relationship. If anyone claims that they are happy because of someone else and being in a relationship I say bull honky. We know that isn't happieness.
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« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2013, 12:13:05 PM »

D&O... .I would like to point out that happiness does not come from a relationship. If anyone claims that they are happy because of someone else and being in a relationship I say bull honky. We know that isn't happieness.

I agree. If you understood my above post to mean that a relationship makes someone happy, what I meant was, if I am happy in a relationship, I don't have to go look for something better or more perfect. But that's true for a nonBPD person. Unfortunately for a pwBPD, they are never truly happy and even if the relationship is good, the inherent fear of depth and closeness will cause them to convince themselves that they aren't happy or it's not right. Once they are free from those feelings of engulfment, they convince themselves they are happy (through the use of self-deception) with the new person/victim and around and around and around it goes.
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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2013, 12:17:46 PM »

D&O... .I would like to point out that happiness does not come from a relationship. If anyone claims that they are happy because of someone else and being in a relationship I say bull honky. We know that isn't happieness.

If you meant to say that happiness does not come specifically and exclusively out of a relationship, I agree 100% with you.

But if you meant that a meaningful/significant part of happiness does not come out of relationship, I say bull honky right back.

I am not picking on you specifically, please excuse me if you feel so. I am trying to get across a counterpoint to this idea that I personally find faulty. Well, OF COURSE I went into this and many other relatonships because I expected to be happy. Isn't that the point? Why would I want to be in a relationship if I would expect to be indifferent or unhappy?

I can accept a lot, in a sense how this is in reality my fault etc. But here I am drawing a hard line. Sorry, I went in with an open heart, got played and got hurt. No amount of "deal with it" will make me any happier. Yes, I will get over it and it will fade into irrelevance. But it will take months or years to get back to any semblance of normalcy. While she will use these years to get pleasure/validation/distraction/sex even. Oh, yeah, one day when we will both be old and gray (all due respect), she might be in a "despair" realizing all the wrong chioces. Well, guess what, I will be in despair too because of all the things that were forever taken away from me. And who won? She.

In all honesty, we also have dual standards when it comes to emotional damage. If someone comes and chops both your legs off, well, you will never ever walk again no matter how much you get over it. But somehow it is ok to label us nons as weak because we cannot repair quickly while honestly we got mutilated, just not visibly so.

I hate you, dear ex.
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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2013, 12:34:07 PM »

Interesting article - but more interesting is how many people focus the lying on their exes rather than on themselves... .

We all try to make sense of life - sometimes we are correct about an event, sometimes we are not.  Lying to oneself is rarely a conscious effort... .it is unconscious, coping skill. 

Focusing on us as it relates to the BPD relationship - I found article 9 - https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a109.htm -

to be aligned with our own false beliefs (lies) that keep us stuck.

This also reminds me of the line from the Sheryl Crow song about happiness, "it's not having what you want it is wanting what you got". 

Interesting thread - thanks for sharing

Peace,

SB

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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2013, 12:42:33 PM »

i can't help but hopefully curb this discussion back to the realm of reality that pwBPD, as another person playfully posted "can lie while drinking a glass of water". seriously, i would never, ever consider my exBPD as happier than I! her whole r/s after we broke up was so fake, she swore up and down that she was so in love with this guy and told me how so great he was and yelled it out to the world to try and discredit and devalue me. and it was so unbelievable that a person could lie to this degree--that it was almost believable.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) guys, please let's not loose all perspective and give these people too much credit here, ok?

my ex did what she felt she needed to try and be happy--but in the end it is obvious that she was desperate, in pain and quite a bit sadistic. screw her version of happiness and i say that wholeheartedly. not one fiber of my being is jealous of her 'happiness' and it may be a good idea for all of us to really re-evaluate things and separate the reality from the lies.

being an expert at lying to yourself and blatantly lying to others about your 'happiness' because of unresolved childhood wounds or brain chemistry/physiology is nothing to be jealous of. go read some other boards where pwBPD talk about how they feel pretty much all the time, it's horrible. they feel so horrible that they feel they have to lie just to try and be normal. i mean, come on, really?  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2013, 01:44:33 PM »

The woman I divorced about 18 years ago... .I didn't really ever apply the borderline equation to her... .Maybe she is... .Maybe they all are... How many times has it been said about women... They're ALL crazy? Don't get your panties in a bunch ladies you say the same thing about guys! Don't lie!

Anyways... .The ex wife... When we split I was SURE that she was so much happier than me. She was seeing guys that appeared much better off financially than me... .Better looking than me... Just all around better partners for her... .But in my mind only. True enough... She hooked up with quite a few guys after we split but right now she is single and we are friends. All of the guys that she was with couldn't make her happy. I won't lie... .It took a LONG time to get there... .The point I'm trying to make is that while appearances were that she was so much happier than I was,the truth was quite different. The only thing that really changed was my perception. I am one hundred percent positive that if I am thinking crazy girl is happy... .I'm probably wrong.
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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2013, 01:57:39 PM »

go read some other boards where pwBPD talk about how they feel pretty much all the time, it's horrible. they feel so horrible that they feel they have to lie just to try and be normal. i mean, come on, really?  Being cool (click to insert in post)

And what would I find there? Same lies as we all had for days/months/years. Come on, by definition, a pwBPD would do and say anything... ANYTHING to come clear. So, what all these "confessions" mean? Awww... .poor me, poor me, pity me, come and save me, get destroyed in the process.

For me, this thread is not a single bit about who is right/moral/normal etc. In my mind, what I try to do is live a positive life and anything I do gets measured versus my own system of values, that for a few years was exchanged for an insane person's system of values. It is not the point. What matters is what she and I ultimately got out of it.

She got a temporary respite from what we presume is suffering. And during my YEARS of dealing with that insanity, I was witness to exactly THREE occasions where she was "smiten" by her previous deeds. In total, that amounted to what... .let's be generous... .10 hours of suffering? I am now 90-something days out. Every one of these days was hell of broken dreams, wishes, ideals. Yeah, call me whiney, call me weak, call me stupid, but trust me, at this minute, I'd rather be out there, partying, having fun and sex then bending in pain. 90x24/10=> over this specific period in time, I am sufferting over TWO HUNDRED times more then she is. Can a PD make you suffer two hundred times more then a "normal" person in some other period in time? No, I am not buying it.

In before "but there is nothing you can do but heal yourself". Yeah, I agree. Still, it does not make it right and I see this more an abstract argument, as in the only thing that will make it right will never ever happen.

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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2013, 02:21:43 PM »

Numbers... .What's stopping you? I did that... Partying,women,having some wild times... .Go ahead... It might just be the release you need. Meet other people... Make new memories. It helps... .to heck with her.
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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2013, 02:34:38 PM »

I have been so destroyed by my breakup (which, coincidentally, has been going on longer than the actual relationship) while my exbf seems completely fine and the sole reason is because he is so well versed at lying to himself. He says things like "things just weren't clicking anymore" and "it just didn't work out" and "we both made mistakes" (he lied, cheated, manipulated, emotionally abused me, while i sat there and tried to love him and has continued to harass me post break up). He tells me how he has hope for the future and getting married to someone someday, meanwhile, having learned NOTHING from our relationship. He did a quick stint in therapy right after the breakup and doesn't seem interested anymore, now that his feelings of guilt and shame are gone. I vacillate between being frustrated and angry at his lack of understanding, and being really sad for him because it really seems like he doesn't think he is the problem despite much evidence to the contrary. He lies to himself to survive. If someone who treated others the way they do wasn't able to rationalize and deny their behavior, I imagine they would lose their will to live very quickly. He sees nothing of what he does. It's heartbreaking. For him and everyone else.
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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2013, 03:02:33 PM »

Hello all, it has been awhile.

As I read through the posts on this thread, I wanted to share what I did. I now sleep well and, at least for now, recall the pain but do not feel it acutely.

I stood up for myself. I had contact 6 months after the break up to return some items of his in my storage unit. I admit I picked a fight a month later because I received no acknowledgement or thank you. (Left at front desk of condo.)

I called him out. I said I was tired of listening to his cry baby tears of feeling bad about himself and always being there for him when he had a melt down. Then experiencing his all "manic" behavior and cleaning up the messes that he creates.

I had a court official call him to tell him to leave me alone. And his psycho kitty new love interest. (She had the nerve to repeat his words to me in a text about the fact that he said he never loved me. Whatever.)

I WILL NOT be recycled whenever he has a fight with his new "object."

BTW. This is what he said. Word for word. I left Kathy (me). I have me a new one. A new one! A new victim.

I know it is a personality disorder that causes them to ache inside and need constant assuaging. But that is NOT my problem!

I quit tip toeing and being supportive. I probably sounded a smidge mental when I went off on him. But, dang, it felt good!
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« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2013, 03:31:11 PM »

i can't help but hopefully curb this discussion back to the realm of reality that pwBPD, as another person playfully posted "can lie while drinking a glass of water". seriously, i would never, ever consider my exBPD as happier than I! her whole r/s after we broke up was so fake, she swore up and down that she was so in love with this guy and told me how so great he was and yelled it out to the world to try and discredit and devalue me. and it was so unbelievable that a person could lie to this degree--that it was almost believable.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) guys, please let's not loose all perspective and give these people too much credit here, ok?

my ex did what she felt she needed to try and be happy--but in the end it is obvious that she was desperate, in pain and quite a bit sadistic. screw her version of happiness and i say that wholeheartedly. not one fiber of my being is jealous of her 'happiness' and it may be a good idea for all of us to really re-evaluate things and separate the reality from the lies.

being an expert at lying to yourself and blatantly lying to others about your 'happiness' because of unresolved childhood wounds or brain chemistry/physiology is nothing to be jealous of. go read some other boards where pwBPD talk about how they feel pretty much all the time, it's horrible. they feel so horrible that they feel they have to lie just to try and be normal. i mean, come on, really?  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Thank you for this. One of the many hurdles I'm facing on my path back to normalcy is the idea that she is better off with my replacement because of some deficiency of mine. The truth is, and I'm conscious of this, that she isn't happy and that I actually forced her into being with this guy because I left the r/s before she could leave me. She was definitely involved with my replacement before the r/s ended and when I tried to save the r/s she told me that she loved me but she wasn't sure it was enough to sustain it and that she "didn't want to lose me." I think that she was waiting to see if it worked out with him before she left, but I never gave her the chance. Maybe it did work out, maybe it didn't. I don't know, but I would be lying if I said that I don't care. Of course I wish that it turned out like yours did because I would be vindicated in some odd way. Regardless, I doubt she's really happy and the only thing I could say to myself that would make me feel better is that if it does work out and she IS happy, then it was meant to be and if true love was destined for her despite her evil ways than it certainly is meant for me too.
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maxen
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2013, 03:42:56 PM »

there's a divide on this thread (and on this site). i'm in therapy, and will be in for a while, and i've benefitted from it. i've started AlAnon, my BPDstbxw was/is an alcohol abuser but even if she wasn't i have to learn in all aspects of life to let go more consistently. in short, i'm trying to work on myself.

but the persistent attempts to detour those of us who have been eviscerated by the actions of our BPs into attention to the self and only to the self has two unhappy consequences and one faulty presumption. the unhappy consequences are that our violation is demeaned and their actions are exculpated (by removing them from a moral calculus, and there is always a moral calculus). the faulty presumption is that we (nons) have more or less the same emotional capacities and will benefit in the same way from the same protocol. a specific kind of happiness comes out of a (good) relationship that does not come from any other source.

In all honesty, we also have dual standards when it comes to emotional damage. If someone comes and chops both your legs off, well, you will never ever walk again no matter how much you get over it. But somehow it is ok to label us nons as weak because we cannot repair quickly while honestly we got mutilated, just not visibly so.

i.imgur.com/CWFTYoV.png

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goldylamont
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2013, 04:35:47 PM »

there's a divide on this thread (and on this site)... .

... .but the persistent attempts to detour those of us who have been eviscerated by the actions of our BPs into attention to the self and only to the self has two unhappy consequences and one faulty presumption. the unhappy consequences are that our violation is demeaned and their actions are exculpated (by removing them from a moral calculus, and there is always a moral calculus). the faulty presumption is that we (nons) have more or less the same emotional capacities and will benefit in the same way from the same protocol. a specific kind of happiness comes out of a (good) relationship that does not come from any other source.

i.imgur.com/CWFTYoV.png

maxen, first of all -- that pic is hilarious! thanks for sharing I've totally felt this way sometimes and i appreciate the humor Smiling (click to insert in post)

secondly, maxen i completely agree with you about how there is a divide--or perhaps easier to say there is a spectrum to nons just as there is a spectrum to high vs. low functioning pwBPD. from my experience here i've felt the need to defend myself when just because i don't consider myself to be a codependent and i don't think i have major childhood issues which attract pwBPD to me like bees to honey. for me, it's kind of just something that happened (although there are def some reasons of my own), and it's just a learning experience. personally i feel like i'm learning more about the world at large than i am learning about some personal faults of my own... .but this seems different from many other's experiences. i'd love to (and have meant to) start a different thread on this.

that being said, i'm hoping my posts aren't being understood as if i'm trying to excuse or feel sorry for the abuse dealt out by pwBPD. oh contrary! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). so, i should just say that in my case, just for me, funk no do i think my xBPDgf is 'happier' than me. i've been out for a long time now and i have enough evidence to see what's happened to her. repeatedly people describe her as toxic, and she keeps faking it all along and still can for all i care--but i'd take my pain any day than the fake BS she's putting out there. But that's just me. Buuuuut, yeah, initially during the breakup (which I initiated)--this was the most challenging emotional time of my life. I don't want to minimize this in the least and it's still something I'm working through--but for me I see a light at the end of the tunnel where I only see her hitting a brick wall when her looks run out, or when she makes the mistake of messing with some guy who isn't as decent as I or many of her other ex's are and he takes her down to rock bottom.

go read some other boards where pwBPD talk about how they feel pretty much all the time, it's horrible. they feel so horrible that they feel they have to lie just to try and be normal... .

And what would I find there?... .

4815162342, what i've found reading these other boards is that when they talk amongst themselves it's a humongous pity party (much like ours!), the difference being that they almost don't talk at all about the affects of their behavior on nons. we spend *lots* of time psychoanalyzing them, trying to understand ourselves and the situation as a whole. they don't really seem to care about anybody or anything but the horrible way that they personally feel--but this is no surprise, right? we already knew this. But also it's shown me that pwBPD *do* know often times what they do is wrong (why else would they have to lie about things if not?), they do know they hurt people and at least many that are on these boards (b/c they've been diagnosed I'm assuming) are well aware of many of their lies, manipulations and rages. but it's *rare* for them to speak about the affect any of this has on nons; only how crappy it makes them feel.   and how they hate doing it, and they hate themselves for behaving this way but that they don't know how to stop   not my kind of party

again, i'm not trying to excuse anything here, i'm just tellin it like i see it
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bpdspell
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2013, 09:09:50 PM »

@goldlamont

I think your posts are thoughtfully insightful and genuine.

... .and yes our exs truly hate themselves on a consistent basis... .they're just Academy Award level actors when it comes to wearing the mask of normalcy. But I've been out long enough to hear the true thoughts and feelings of what people really feel about my ex and they all have experienced him as toxic.

They are emotionally stunted trapped petulant children in adult bodies... .so true lasting and sustainable happiness will always elude them. BPD is no picnic or Sunday stroll in the park... .Without intensive help they will be mentally sick for a lifetime.

Spell

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maxen
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« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2013, 10:18:51 PM »

i'd love to (and have meant to) start a different thread on this.

i look forward to it!
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Changingman
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« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2013, 04:23:34 AM »

there's a divide on this thread (and on this site)... .

... .but the persistent attempts to detour those of us who have been eviscerated by the actions of our BPs into attention to the self and only to the self has two unhappy consequences and one faulty presumption. the unhappy consequences are that our violation is demeaned and their actions are exculpated (by removing them from a moral calculus, and there is always a moral calculus). the faulty presumption is that we (nons) have more or less the same emotional capacities and will benefit in the same way from the same protocol. a specific kind of happiness comes out of a (good) relationship that does not come from any other source.

i.imgur.com/CWFTYoV.png

maxen, first of all -- that pic is hilarious! thanks for sharing I've totally felt this way sometimes and i appreciate the humor Smiling (click to insert in post)

secondly, maxen i completely agree with you about how there is a divide--or perhaps easier to say there is a spectrum to nons just as there is a spectrum to high vs. low functioning pwBPD. from my experience here i've felt the need to defend myself when just because i don't consider myself to be a codependent and i don't think i have major childhood issues which attract pwBPD to me like bees to honey. for me, it's kind of just something that happened (although there are def some reasons of my own), and it's just a learning experience. personally i feel like i'm learning more about the world at large than i am learning about some personal faults of my own... .but this seems different from many other's experiences. i'd love to (and have meant to) start a different thread on this.

that being said, i'm hoping my posts aren't being understood as if i'm trying to excuse or feel sorry for the abuse dealt out by pwBPD. oh contrary! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). so, i should just say that in my case, just for me, funk no do i think my xBPDgf is 'happier' than me. i've been out for a long time now and i have enough evidence to see what's happened to her. repeatedly people describe her as toxic, and she keeps faking it all along and still can for all i care--but i'd take my pain any day than the fake BS she's putting out there. But that's just me. Buuuuut, yeah, initially during the breakup (which I initiated)--this was the most challenging emotional time of my life. I don't want to minimize this in the least and it's still something I'm working through--but for me I see a light at the end of the tunnel where I only see her hitting a brick wall when her looks run out, or when she makes the mistake of messing with some guy who isn't as decent as I or many of her other ex's are and he takes her down to rock bottom.

go read some other boards where pwBPD talk about how they feel pretty much all the time, it's horrible. they feel so horrible that they feel they have to lie just to try and be normal... .

And what would I find there?... .

4815162342, what i've found reading these other boards is that when they talk amongst themselves it's a humongous pity party (much like ours!), the difference being that they almost don't talk at all about the affects of their behavior on nons. we spend *lots* of time psychoanalyzing them, trying to understand ourselves and the situation as a whole. they don't really seem to care about anybody or anything but the horrible way that they personally feel--but this is no surprise, right? we already knew this. But also it's shown me that pwBPD *do* know often times what they do is wrong (why else would they have to lie about things if not?), they do know they hurt people and at least many that are on these boards (b/c they've been diagnosed I'm assuming) are well aware of many of their lies, manipulations and rages. but it's *rare* for them to speak about the affect any of this has on nons; only how crappy it makes them feel.   and how they hate doing it, and they hate themselves for behaving this way but that they don't know how to stop   not my kind of party

again, i'm not trying to excuse anything here, i'm just tellin it like i see it

Yes to all this,

I guess the fact we were caregivers is the point. Are we to blame for the RS? No.

Did we become Eva Braun to their hitler? No, but we should have got out quicker. Are there any other BPDs in our life? In my case yes. Glad I know now, seen behind the curtain.

We're not in Kansas anymore

And never will be again
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« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2013, 04:26:56 AM »

I agree Maxen (and P+C)

For some of us, needing to understand what happened and process how we are going to deal with and move on from it means being able to acknowledge the damage, have it validated and then hold it up to the light to see what we found so fascinating about it in the first place ... .how we were so fooled.

I have had tough relationships, hitty breakups etc ... but I have never experienced anything like this before and no amount of claiming the self is going to help with that - thing is, I have changed - being dropped on my head from the top of a cliff has changed me. And I need to know what that means, and who I am now ... and part of that is means demanding (even if it's just here, or inside my head) that my hurt be allowed to manifest as I see fit.

I don't know what that means - and that is probably because it means different things at different times/days ... I know that some people are much better at drawing a boundary and saying 'no more'! than others ... (although we all seem to struggle a bit with this) ... and as much as I would love to do that, I can't ... but I am trying to learn ...
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Changingman
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« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2013, 04:58:42 AM »

Yes maxan

To be 'happy' like them would mean... .skipping between insanity and deep distress.

I like being me, feeling real feelings. Happy? Kiss my ___*

an alien has taken out the real person and replaced them with a distortion, like a human but through a dark broken mirror.

( this is metaphorical )

Are they happy! Ha ha

To ask such a question is madness

Good luck everyone

You have now left

The twilight zone
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bewildered2
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2 months good stuff, then it was all downhill


« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2013, 06:10:07 AM »

they seem happier because they are good at acting. and they are good at lying... .to others and to themselves.

and because they are always looking for something to make themselves feel good at that moment in time... .it could be alcohol or drugs or self harm or promiscuity... .and so while they are using their tonic of choice they look happy... .and they are... .until the drug wears off and they are left with the reality of who they are and what they do to other people... .not a pretty picture... .so they go out and start all over again.

they are chronically and deeply unhappy... .and so desperate to make that emotional pain go away... .anyway they can.

do not envy someopne with BPD. they are in a bad place, fundamentally. the booze/drugs/self harm/promiscuity are just bandaids that need to be constantly changed.

just read the books about this disorder, e.g. "i hate you dont leave me", and you will see that they are unhappy, despite the happy mask that they wear for everybody to see. there is a reason why 8-10% of these poor folks kill themselves... .

you will get better in time. they will only get better with a lot of hard work and therapy.   

who would you rather be?

the grass isnt always greener!

b2
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Numbers
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« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2013, 06:45:22 AM »

Numbers... .What's stopping you? I did that... Partying,women,having some wild times... .Go ahead... It might just be the release you need. Meet other people... Make new memories. It helps... .to heck with her.

Wow, I was really negative yesterday, need to cut down on booze Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

What is stopping me is that this time something got truly broken. In between all previous recycles I went out, traveled, worked out, even dated. Now... .I am even evading my readily available (girl)friend with benefits. Actually, as time goes by, I go out less and less. After getting so horribly rejected, I just cannot play the usual social game of trial and error - go through rejections till you score. I truly hope that too shall pass, I most definitely do not want to be/stay this way.

One thing I might have not been clear on - when I argue that she is happier, I am not talking about relationships. To the best of my knowledge, i was not immediately replaced. She flirts all the time, but in order for her to commit, target needs to pass an ungodly amount of tests. Trust me, I know  Smiling (click to insert in post). But once someone passes, no, she will not be happier.

What I am saying is that she is currently without doubt living a very rich, social and successful life out of relationship and I envy her for that.
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Changingman
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« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2013, 07:11:05 AM »

NO booze, no drugs. Maybe no sex for a while

Escape into fantasy has maybe run a bit dry for you

Give your body a chance.

mental health needs some care after being with a BPD.

We have been living in an asylum, it's odd out here.

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