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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: I'm having trouble just accepting the fact that my ex has BPD  (Read 3495 times)
willy45
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« on: March 29, 2014, 10:14:53 AM »

I'm sure this is a topic that comes up all the time. Does my ex have BPD? Or, am I using this an excuse to leave.

I've been to T for months after leaving. The T I have specialized in BPD and works with a lot of them. He seems to have no doubt about what this is. He told me that my experience of the relationship is stereotypical. He told me that she would continue to contact me and try to continually manipulate me into any form of relationship with her. That it likely wouldn't stop until she found someone else she can do this with.

Anyhow, I know that it doesn't matter. And I know that the relationship was and continues to be extremely harmful for me. But I keep getting stuck on this. Did I make all this up? Am I the one who is messed up?

I guess the post by Caveman maybe nails why I am still struggling with this. My mental map is all over the place about her and I'm trying desperately to make sense of it all so that I can have a clear frame of reference.

Ug. I keep fantasizing about the good (the sex, the connection, her looks, our intellectual connection, our shared passions). I keep thinking that I messed it all up by leaving her, that I should have stuck around and dealt with it, that all the crazy behaviors would have gone away if I had just done what she asked of me (get married, include her in my family).

She told me last time we spoke that our relationship was the worst thing she ever endured (except for her relationship with her previous 'abusive' ex), that she was the most miserable she had ever been with me. This was in the same conversation where she told me that I was her best friend in the whole world, that there was a huge hole in her life that nobody else could fill, that she will never find anyone else who understands her like I do, that she would love to see me.

Ack. I can't stand this.

I know what everyone is going to say... . It is about me. Why I'm still attached. Why I still care. That nobody should ever make a diagnosis from afar, that we aren't trained professionals.

But for all of you that had a high-functioning ex who is undiagnosed, what do you think? I keep coming back to these boards after she contacts me. I keep reading about it on-line. EVERYTHING that I have read reads like my RS. Still though, the doubt lingers.

I guess I feel like if I knew this was what it was, I could just accept that I did the best I could, that I was just scared of her and her behavior and that I made the only choice I could have made and left.


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bpdspell
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2014, 10:40:54 AM »

I guess I feel like if I knew this was what it was, I could just accept that I did the best I could, that I was just scared of her and her behavior and that I made the only choice I could have made and left.

Having doubts about the severity of our ex's mental state makes you human. The complexity of being in love will also compromise our ability to accept the plain facts. But drop your need for a "label" and focus on your ex's behaviors. Behaviors that forced you to walk away from your ex's hot looks, passion, intellectual connection and good sex. No one walks away from that unless their internal GPS system is waving a giant red flag of ":)ANGER DO NOT PROCEED." Trust that your internal mechanisms knows what's best for you.

There is a part of us that doesn't trust that having borderline personality disorder is a real illness but it is. The mind "scramble" game we play is common. Your ex maybe high functioning in many areas of her life but on the inside she's damaged goods and there's a part of you that will evolve into this acceptance gradually.

My ex was super handsome, well endowed, we had unbelievable sex, lots of sex, we laughed, we played, smoked weed, we ate dinners and enjoyed NYC night life. But of course there's a huge but. He was short tempered, entitled, bossy, insecure, controlling, envious, black and white in his thinking, and when he was mad he was not nice to be around. At times I felt like he was on this constant mission; grooming me to be his mom. And we clashed more and more the closer we got. They he started cheating, lying, gaslighting and starting all kinds of dramatic fights to test my loyalty, my love…and soon everything became daily chaos for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

No imagine if I would have married and had a kid with him. *head desk*

You and I are not with our ex's anymore for a reason. You have to trust that your ex sucks and that marrying her would have been the worst mistake of your life. Knock your ex off the pedestal and see her for "all" that she is. Not just her good parts…but the parts that made you pack your bags.

Spell
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newc1992

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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2014, 10:58:11 AM »

For what it's worth, I think that the vast majority of people on this board have been in your position at some point, or still are in your position (myself included). I have learned that BPD is a strange disorder as individuals with the disorder can demonstrate traits in some areas but in other areas they can live relatively normal lives. To complicate it further, the symptoms of cluster B personality disorders can often overlap, making it difficult to diagnose, even for some professionals. It is true, we cannot diagnose others as we are not psychologists; but we do know these people well enough to be able to get a good judgement of whether they have a personality disorder.

My ex is also undiagnosed, and I didn't even know BPD existed until I began to look for closure and stumbled upon something which fits her personality like a glove. The stories I read are almost carbon copies of my own. Again, her symptoms overlap: she has narcissistic and histrionic traits, and I am no psychologist. But having spent many hours searching through information, I have come to the conclusion that she is borderline. Even friends have said that she is "crazy" and the things I have seen of her past make me believe this theory further. My mother is experienced in psychology, and has many books and journals on the subject. She said that immediately she could see traits in my ex that would demonstrate that she suffers from mental illness. She said that she seemed depressed and took a genuine interest in the books which my mum showed her. She seems to realise herself that she is not normal and is desperately searching for a reason why.

So, how does this link to you? Well, the fact that your therapist, again, like my mother, someone with a lot more experience than yourself has said that she fits BPD, and that you can relate to much of what you have seen and experienced yourself, would suggest that she does have BPD. If not, she is certainly a little crazy, and the red flags that made you leave have assured you of that. When you are in a relationship with someone with BPD (or the aftermath of a relationship), you can often begin to feel as if YOU are the crazy one, and they are in fact perfectly normal. I think that if your gut, and others around you are saying that something isn't right, then you should proceed with caution. Whether you fall for her attempts to make contact is up to you. But make sure that you are committed to whichever option you choose. I know what you are going through, as do a lot of others on this forum. You are not alone here.
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willy45
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2014, 11:06:10 AM »

Thanks BPDspell,

That was really helpful. I really appreciate it. I guess it got to a point where I really had to make a choice. Move cities to be with her or not. At the time, I was also interested in someone else. Someone who seemed nice and kind and cute.

The weekend before I was about to move down, I brought a whole bunch of my stuff and it was three days of absolute h#ll. She yelled at me for everything. Called me names. Raged at me in the middle of the night. She came screaching down the stairs at one point and starting screaming: "You just think I'm a crazy b*tch! You just think I'm a crazy b*tch." She was in a full rage and I had no idea where it was coming from. I wasn't even thinking about her! And my thought, instantly, was "I can't have children with this person". And that was obviously going to be the next step. I backed my bags and left.

What followed were months and months of phone calls. Crying. Blaming. Accusations. I told her that I could not be in a relationship with someone who can't even apologize for something, that all she had to do was apologize and I would move. She told me that 'she wasn't capable of that'. Two weeks later, she called to rage at me about how she apologized all the time and that I just didn't like the way she apologized.

Oh man... . every time I think it through and you put it in this context very well, it is so obvious that she fits into the pattern. I just remembered the morning after I was leaving. She had already left for a work trip. I refused to take a cab with her to the airport as I was leaving too. I remember her calling me and being so super saccharin sweet. All love and how much I mean to her and how wonderful I am. CONFUSING! I guess that is typical BPD. No mention of the weekend and what happened. She just seemed desperate.

Thanks for mental clarity. I need that. I'm sure she cheated on me too, a bunch, but I don't really have any hard evidence of that. Just weird behaviors, raging at me when I asked her questions about where she was, pushing it back on me and telling me all the things I did wrong in the relationship to avoid the conversation.

I was doing so well until she called me. Not 100% but fine. Maybe at 60%, 65%. But I was OK with that considering where I had been. Then she calls me to tell me she wants her best friend back but that she was in a relationship but wants to hang out and be best friends again and move forward and forget the past like nothing ever happened and that there is no way she would ever get back together with me so I must be living in a fantasy world. That she was so incredibly miserable with me our entire relationship. But, in the same sentence, that I was her soul mate and that she was mad at me for taking away her soul mate and that she wants her soul mate back as her best friend.

My lord... . I'm ranting... .

But yes. Good point. My life with her would have been a living h*ll and it would never have worked anyways. There is NO WAY I would want to have a family with her.
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willy45
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2014, 11:17:14 AM »

Thanks newc1992,

I really appreciate it. It can't be a coincidence that all the stories I've read are carbon copies of my relationship. I am capable of taking a step back from things and my emotions around it and look at it objectively. Everyone I tell these stories  say that they are 'crazy'. And if I look at her history prior to me, her relationships 100% fit the bill... . cheating, abuse, lies, gaslighting, suicidal threats. The whole deal. For whatever reason, I can't seem to think she would do that with me (white knight complex anyone?). For some reason, when those behaviors turned on me, I thought I was to blame. And I guess I still do. I talked to my friend about it last week and she told me that this was hilarious because it was all to predictable. She calls me. Tells me all these things I want to hear. I have hope. I start to think that it was all me and that I made a huge mistake and that I'm willing to pack my bags in a drop of a hat. And then she turns around and says no... . those were just words. I was just trying to be nice. But you are my soul mate. But you made me miserable. But you are my best friend in the whole world. It is madness. It makes absolutely no sense.

What's worse though, is how it is making me feel. What is wrong with me that I can still get pulled in like this?

I was seriously doing well. Was more fit than I had been since I was 16 (I'm almost 40 now). Was getting huge contracts in an area that I'm really passionate about. Getting the esteem of people that I looked up to and never thought I would even meet, let alone present to or even meet for that matter. Getting told by strangers and work colleagues that I am 'eye candy', everyone I meet thinking I must just be rolling in women. I'm frigging presenting my work at the White House even though I'm not even American. It doesn't make any sense! Why do I feel like such a piece of crap. Why do I let this person have so much power over me? Why do I yearn to be with her when I wish she didn't even exist or that I had never met her? Really. AGGG... . And why can't she just frigging leave me alone.

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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2014, 11:30:18 AM »

Willy,

Without reading the diagnosis on a piece of paper from a Dr. almost all of us have felt the way you do.  Our MC told me, "your w has no sense of self, she is disassociating, severe mood swings, she is self-sabotaging and when asked if she wants the marriage to end she answers - "I want the pain to stop".

I only found this place by googling those words - and even then, I wasn't quite sure - still not.

What I can tell you is exactly what Schwing told me - you lived it, you know -now focus on you!

Willy, I am worried about you - you really are spinning over the same question over and over.  This is an obsessional thought for you now - it is possible you have some ptsd trauma happening.

What are you DOING when those thoughts (why is she calling) come up?  How are you actively pushing them away?

She calls because she wants to and she can - she does not care how it effects you.

Try this, write a letter to her (do not send it) telling her how you feel about her contacting you - maybe if you get it out it can help your brain stop.

Peace,

SB
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2014, 11:46:19 AM »

hi willy

im in this place alot too.  I was considering looking at Pema Chodrons book Comfortable with Uncertainty.

You can look at alot of it online too. Its buddhist teachings and altho not sure if that appeals to you or not it may provide some calm in your suffering. 

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willy45
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2014, 11:50:11 AM »

Thanks Seeking Balance.

Yes. I was diagnosed with complex PTSD after I broke up with ex. I think I'm freaking out because I worked so hard on moving forward in life. I really, really, really worked. And I feel like I'm back to where I started. And I guess I feel like I can do it again but I can't do it when she keeps contacting me. I want to change my number but feel like I need it for work. She works at a really high level in the government, as do I. She is an employee. I own a company. We know all the same people. These people don't know that we know each other (because I got these contracts post break up). So, it is just weird. Weird that we run in the same circles even though we didn't when we were together and I didn't try to end up in these circles to see her or get to her. It is just a random thing that I'm really thrilled about (doing the work) but so pissed that there is a connection to her there.

I guess I keep asking why she is calling but what I really, really want is for her to STOP. I guess I'm trying to understand because I want it to stop.

I know that the answer is to just not pick up. But I was doing that. And I failed. And now I'm back to hard core PTSD land. I'm KNOW she will call again. I know I can resist for the most part. But sometimes I slip. And the costs are so high.
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2014, 11:56:23 AM »

Yes. I was diagnosed with complex PTSD after I broke up with ex.

So, use your wise mind and realize you are spinning - learn to breathe through it.

What was your treatment plan originally - EMDR?
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2014, 12:37:04 PM »

Excerpt
Ug. I keep fantasizing about the good (the sex, the connection, her looks, our intellectual connection, our shared passions). I keep thinking that I messed it all up by leaving her, that I should have stuck around and dealt with it, that all the crazy behaviors would have gone away if I had just done what she asked of me (get married, include her in my family).

She told me last time we spoke that our relationship was the worst thing she ever endured... .

We are living somewhat parallel lives. I have this same exact issue, all the wonderful times keep playing in my head on a continual loop as I search for the key that would have brought consistency.  And ponder why it unraveled.

Young, beautiful, sexy, a perfect connection across the board. I had found my dream girl and we were going to live happily ever after. I was told many times I far exceeded her expectations of what a man should be. But that eventually changed into; this is the worst relationship I have ever had.

Her therapist mother told me about the BPD. I have gone in and out with acceptance of this diagnosis. When things were bad, which they were on many instances, I accepted that there was BPD in the mix and worked at resolutions. But when things went good I doubted myself and this whole BPD thing. I wanted to be wrong, I went on in denial, I put BPD out of my mind and worked at having a real and loving relationship. But of course *#%! would hit the fan and reality would come crashing back.

It's over, there is no making sense of it all. I think we can see the outward symptoms but truly can have no idea what turmoil is going on in their heads and how they view us and the world around them. BPD/NPD/HPD who knows. I do know something was way out of sorts, and honestly I don't even know if a psychologist can really understand or make sense of it.
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2014, 12:45:33 PM »

She told me last time we spoke that our relationship was the worst thing she ever endured (except for her relationship with her previous 'abusive' ex), that she was the most miserable she had ever been with me. This was in the same conversation where she told me that I was her best friend in the whole world, that there was a huge hole in her life that nobody else could fill, that she will never find anyone else who understands her like I do, that she would love to see me.

But for all of you that had a high-functioning ex who is undiagnosed, what do you think? I keep coming back to these boards after she contacts me. I keep reading about it on-line. EVERYTHING that I have read reads like my RS. Still though, the doubt lingers.

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willy45
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2014, 01:51:07 PM »

Ha. Yes. Bolding what I just wrote certainly clarifies the BPD like behavior. This is essentially how our entire RS went.

The craziest thing post breakup is that her experience of me us that I draw close and pull away, draw close and pull away. Like I am the one with BPD. Like I am the one who us constantly contacting her and begging her back. It is insane.
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willy45
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2014, 03:03:23 PM »

Ha. Yes. Bolding what I just wrote certainly clarifies the BPD like behavior. This is essentially how our entire RS went.

The craziest thing post breakup is that her experience of me us that I draw close and pull away, draw close and pull away. Like I am the one with BPD. Like I am the one who us constantly contacting her and begging her back. It is insane.
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2014, 03:11:55 PM »

I'm sure this is a topic that comes up all the time. Does my ex have BPD? Or, am I using this an excuse to leave.



But I keep getting stuck on this. Did I make all this up? Am I the one who is messed up?

I can relate to this inner turmoil. But I know what I experienced and that it was for real, as you do know what you experienced is for real. In my case my ex is polyamourous and in a long term r/s with his primary gf. I dont know how they manage their r/s and why they can hold on for so long. It makes me question myself and my r/s health, because how can my ex be in a long term r/s while being so extreme in his emotions? But then again maybe the poly lifestyle secures their r/s and keeps it bearble, because it elevates the pressure from his primary r/s. I dont know. Maybe it was me, but I havent experienced something this troubled before in my r/ships with other men. His former poly gf commited suicide the day he left her ( and he told me many different versions of their parture), and I know that their r/s was very tumultuos. So its a fifty/fifty change, either it is me who is deeply disturbed to the point of making things up and not seing the reality as it is, or it is him who is deeply disturbed and destructive in his relationships. I dont know, but I know what I experienced with him, thats the only thing I can hold on to.

I dont have a history of lying, cheating, doing 180 degree flips, personality shifts,  or leaving my exes in utter confusion and pain. I dont have a history of hurting my exes over and over again, I dont have a history of being clincy and suffocating, I dont have a history of being selfish to satisfy my needs at all costs. I dont have a history of not being able to be alone or without a r/s. I dont have a history of jumping from one r/s to another. I dont have a history of being a totally different person while being around other people. I dont have a history of being overly demanding. I dont have a history of extreme push and pull dynamics. I dont have a history like that. On that I can rely.

I guess you can say that I am emotionally messed up to a certain degree ( other wise I wouldnt be sucked in to the r/s for starters), but I am very aware of my 'messedupness'  Being cool (click to insert in post), and I dont harm other people with my own emotional problems. I work on them and handle them in the best way I can. There is a difference between being "messed up", and having a PD.

Are there personal r/s ( or other) facts that you can rely on?


I guess the post by Caveman maybe nails why I am still struggling with this. My mental map is all over the place about her and I'm trying desperately to make sense of it all so that I can have a clear frame of reference.

Ug. I keep fantasizing about the good (the sex, the connection, her looks, our intellectual connection, our shared passions). I keep thinking that I messed it all up by leaving her, that I should have stuck around and dealt with it, that all the crazy behaviors would have gone away if I had just done what she asked of me (get married, include her in my family).

She told me last time we spoke that our relationship was the worst thing she ever endured (except for her relationship with her previous 'abusive' ex), that she was the most miserable she had ever been with me. This was in the same conversation where she told me that I was her best friend in the whole world, that there was a huge hole in her life that nobody else could fill, that she will never find anyone else who understands her like I do, that she would love to see me.

Ack. I can't stand this.

As looking back in hindsight I realised that the 'good"was not 'good" as in real. The 'good"was nothing more than a momentum for my ex, and probably manipulated by him by mirroring my longings and reflecting them.  It was the most painfull realisation to me, the fact that the 'good things' we shared werent as real or true for him as they where for me. It was very painfull to realise and sometimes it still is, but It made me realise there is nothing 'good' to long back too. It wasnt real, it was a fantasy. A beautifull fantasy with no doubt, but a fantasy not reality. We didnt share those moments, because they were percieved in totally different way by him and me. There is nothing for me to long back to, because ( in hindsight) we did not share those moment or feelings.

I believe love comes without the responsibility to fix your partner, all you can do is support your partner. Love comes without having to marry someone to make a good relationship, the r/s has to be good by itself to feel the desire to marry someone, dont you think?

Would the crazy behavoirs have gone away if you would have married her or adjusted yourself to the point of loosing your identity? Or would they have become worse?

I know what everyone is going to say... . It is about me. Why I'm still attached. Why I still care. That nobody should ever make a diagnosis from afar, that we aren't trained professionals.

But for all of you that had a high-functioning ex who is undiagnosed, what do you think? I keep coming back to these boards after she contacts me. I keep reading about it on-line. EVERYTHING that I have read reads like my RS. Still though, the doubt lingers.

I guess I feel like if I knew this was what it was, I could just accept that I did the best I could, that I was just scared of her and her behavior and that I made the only choice I could have made and left.

What is witholding you to believe you did the best you could? What is witholding you to believe that this r/s was not the right one for you to be in?

What could you have done different without sacrifycing yourself? 
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willy45
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 10:22:14 PM »

Hi All,

I'm having trouble just accepting the fact that my ex has BPD. I have trouble really accepting that it is a thing that exists. My ex was undiagnosed although she was diagnosed at some point with bi-polar disorder or something like that (which she accused me of having after the breakup... .   I don't... . I checked, and got several opinions).

Does anyone else have this problem? Why does it matter? Why do I care? I guess for me it would be comforting to know that the relationship was probably doomed from the get go and that there was nothing I could have done about it. I tried. I really did. Part of me tried to get her to a point where we could have a stable relationship. Part of me wanted to leave the entire time. The rage and push/pull was unbearable. I started to not like myself or what I was doing. I started to rage back. I would just get incensed.

Now my ex wants to be 'best friends'. I am very confused about this. I don't feel safe. I guess I'm trying to justify in my mind and try to rectify it with my heart that it is OK to say no. That her reaching out to me isn't for my sake and it isn't really about being 'friends'. It is to fill some kind of need that she has to continue the blame and the rage and the anger.

If I use the BPD lens on what just happened between us, it makes complete sense. This is after a year of NC.

1) She calls and tells me all kinds of things to elevate me (I am the only one who understand her, I am the only one who cares what she has to say, I am her soul mate, I am her best friend in the whole world)

2) When I call her back and ask her what her intentions are, she tells me she is only offering her friendship. When I ask her why did she say all those things to me, she told me their were just words. She was just being 'nice'. When I tell her how it makes me feel when she calls me (it makes me sick to my stomach, I start to miss her like crazy, I can't move on in my life, it hurts me too much, I live in a fantasy land where we are together and happy and the reality of this not being true is crushing to me), she tells me all the things I did wrong in the relationship, how she will never return to it, how she was the most miserable she was ever in her life with me.

Now, if I start to think of her as a normal human being, this would be confusing as all h*ll. This is the part of me who is confused. The part that still believes that she is of average mental health (I know... . no one is perfect... . ) and that she would care how I felt and would care about what she said to me and would not be surprised by how those words impacted me. This is where I get stuck. I don't think a normal person would just say all these things after not speaking to someone for a year. Especially to someone who told her to F off a few months after the breakup and someone who defined very clearly why they left (she begged me to tell her why I left... . and I clearly told her it was because she was abusive towards me and that I had clearly told her that if she ever called me an ___hole again or raged at me in the middle of the night, that would leave... . She did both and then some over the course of our last weekend together... . so I packed my bags and left).

Anyhow, I digress.

If I think of her as having normal faculties and an average level of emotional intelligence, then her first call and her second call, for that matter, are very confusing and hurtful.

If I look at it through the lens of her having BPD, it makes 100% sense. She needs something... . some validation, maybe things with her current BF aren't the best, maybe something is missing in her life... . who knows... . so she calls me, love bombs me and uses every manipulative way she knows how to get back into my heart to draw me back into her life. She wants her best friend back. When I tell her I can't be her friend (maybe I shouldn't have divulged why... . that was a mistake I knew I was making as it was coming out of my mouth... . I shouldn't have told her it was because part of me still loved her and that this was an awful reminder of everything and that it really hurt... . This is all true but what is also true is that I don't want to get back together with her if she hasn't gotten any help... . which I know will never happen), she then starts to berate me and tell me all the things I did wrong and how awful I was to her. Black and White. I go from best friend in the entire world to person who made her the most miserable in her entire life. Within minutes. Push/Pull. Back and Forth. Best Friend/Worst Enemy.

Now, maybe the lesson here for me is to just learn to accept that has BPD. Learn to accept that there is nothing really I could have done about. Learn that there is nothing I can do about. Learn that this isn't acceptable to me. And learn that this is good. It is good to value one's self. It is good to take care of one's self. And it is good to just accept this fact. There really isn't any other explanation for her behaviors. Her life history points to BPD and it fits like a glove (history of body image issues, father abandoned her when she was 5 and didn't speak to her until she was 23, crazy relationship history with 'abusive' people, mother who has the emotional intelligence of a 6 year old, drug abuse in her family, crazy sex and probably cheated on me, rage, insane mood changes in the course of minutes, projection, blame, low self-esteem... . it goes on and on).

Does this make sense? Is this why I'm obsessed with these boards? For me, I am the kind of person that needs to UNDERSTAND. And this is the only way for me to understand. And her recent phone calls, in the light of BPD, is the only way that makes any of this make any sense to me. And it is the only way that I can truly let go. Nothing I can do about it. I don't want this crazy in my life. I don't like the way it feels. It is the reason I left.

Thoughts? Anyone have the same trouble?
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 10:55:25 PM »



I wish I had an answer for you to relieve you from rumination.  I read a study once that said rumination, or repetitive thought, occurs when our brains face something "unresolved" and that the most effective way to end rumination was to ATTAIN or ABANDON the outcome.   The study also said that, sometimes, it's more effective to ask HOW something did not work rather than WHY something did not work.

Like many of us, you face questions that can't really be answered.   Many on the detaching board face a war between heart and head.  Our heads are trying to convince our hearts to move on, while our hearts long for something different, something remembered.

I'm sitting here tonight, alone, because I'm trying to experience the abandonment. I want to detach although, to be honest, I want so badly to reach out to my ex-girlfriend. I want her to show up at my door.  I want her to say sorry, this was all wrong.

But... . it ain't gonna happen. Because it was a fantasy.  And, so, I am going to wrestle whatever demons haunt me.   I am going to ABANDON the dream, and the story.   I blocked every avenue of communication because I remember how the relationship transpired (80% drama, 20% good).

It doesn't matter if my ex-girlfriend is disordered or not.  Acknowledging HOW the relationship transpired helps me let go of her. What matters is that I take care of myself now.   I am going to rip myself open and feel the pain -- and somehow, someway, someday I'm going to heal it.   

Have you found any materials that have helped you?  I read past posts of long-time members here.  And, I really liked the book Betrayal Bonds by Patrick Carnes.     
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2014, 11:47:28 PM »

Yeah. Thanks. I understand what you are saying. At the same time though, it is important for me to understand. Without a sound narrative in place, the heart and the mind cannot align. I think this is why a lot of us have so much trouble. We LOVED the kind, sweet, sexy person and were hurt and confused by the angry, raging, emotionally abusive person. For me, these two people didn't match. My feelings didn't match when I was with her. I loved her and at the same time was scared of her. And this is not because I fear intimacy or anything like that. It is because I couldn't get a mental map of what was going on. She would yell and rage at me for the smallest thing and I didn't understand. Then she would be super fun and loving and normal. And then it would happen again. And then she would be great again. I would fall in and out of love with her constantly. I didn't feel safe.

What helped me detach before was focusing on understanding. This helped me a lot. I understood she was not well. I understood that there was nothing I could do about it. I understood my role in it. I understood why I stayed. It made sense. My heart and my mind could align. And this took a long time.

Now, if I think about BPD, then yes. I can UNDERSTAND. It makes 100% total sense and I can just take it for what it is. An outcry from her for closeness and intimacy which she is not getting elsewhere. I was someone who could deal with her. I was with her for 6 years. And she probably isn't getting that from her current relationship so she reaches out to me despite my telling her not to and telling her to call a friend or a therapist or her boyfriend if she felt like it. I don't think she can control it. It certainly is not because she cares for me. And it certainly isn't so that we aren't 'enemies' anymore. She isn't looking for someone to just catch up with every 6 or 12 months. That I can deal with. She is looking for her BEST FRIEND.

If this isn't viewed in the BPD context, then it is doesn't make any sense. Why would someone want to be my best friend if I also made her the most miserable she has ever been. It doesn't add up. In the context of BPD, then it does make sense.

If it makes sense, then I know what to do. I know how to handle the situation. I can see it for what it truly is... . a manipulative attempt to reel me into her life in a deep and intimate way that has no regard or respect for me or my feelings. It is her acting the way a BPD person would act. And it will just continue the way it has in the past. She will draw close and then lash out. She will lash out at me for any perceived abandonment. She will lash out at me for anything she feels I do wrong. She will continue to draw me in despite what I say or do to try to erect boundaries. She will continue to do this. For years.

This is basically what my T told me. He told me she fits the profile. Before we stopped in T about 6 months ago, he told me very clearly that she would be back and that she would use all these tools again. I thought I was strong enough to avoid and ignore. For the most part I did. I did that so that I could heal. So that I could let my brain and my heart converge and be healthy. To build a narrative about her and I that started to make sense. To find the weaknesses in me and work on them to make them stronger. This is what I was doing. And I was doing OK.

Talking to her just made me crazy all over again. I start to doubt myself. I start to believe her! That is nuts. I start to believe her craziness again. I start to believe that I was the cause of all her problems. I was the cause of all her rage.

But there is power in labels. That is why we have a language to begin with. So we can UNDERSTAND.

If anything, I need to just accept that she has BPD, that she will continue to do this to me, she will continue to go after me, continue to call and email and text. That I have to just be strong. Learn how to build up my boundaries better and protect myself. Learn that it is OK to say no to her.

That's what I have to do.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2014, 12:05:05 AM »

Hi willy45,

I know how you feel, it is difficult to accept that someone that we cared so deeply for, is sick. It took me many months until it finally sunk in, and I finally accepted it. I was in disbelief, because I think I was in denial. There was a small part of me that didn't want to accept it, because I thought that I could somehow make her understand, or try to help her. I had to let that ideal go, until I did that, I accepted it for what it is.
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2014, 03:32:13 AM »

If I think of her as having normal faculties and an average level of emotional intelligence, then her first call and her second call, for that matter, are very confusing and hurtful.

But isn't it confusing and hurtful even if she has BPD?

Now, maybe the lesson here for me is to just learn to accept that has BPD. Learn to accept that there is nothing really I could have done about. Learn that there is nothing I can do about. Learn that this isn't acceptable to me. And learn that this is good. It is good to value one's self. It is good to take care of one's self.

Nothing I can do about it. I don't want this crazy in my life. I don't like the way it feels. It is the reason I left.

The fact is, whether she has BPD or not, you didn't/don't feel safe in a relationship with her.  You cannot control her behavior, you can't make "it" (whatever it is) go away, or make her love you the way you want to be loved.  You can change yourself, and that does influence everyone around you, but it never guarantees that the other person will react to you the way that you want, or suddenly gain the emotional skills to become a great partner.

She pushes you when you aren't her savior anymore, when you don't behave like her soul mate.  She pulls you when she thinks you are her savior again, her soul mate, her best friend. We push when pwBPD doesn't act the way we want him/her to.  And we want to pull them when they act like our savior, someone who loves us and needs us more than anyone else in the world.  We have our own version of push/pull, and I think it's important to look at that, the way that you are.

I really get what you are saying about understanding, willy, I really do.  It does make a difference in our heads.  But you have said that this behavior is unacceptable to you, so having BPD is not the issue, ultimately.  

Do you have some hope that with  understanding on your part, you can be her best friend?  Are you willing to go through the same/similar heartache, while witnessing her engaging in other romantic relationships and pushing/pulling, blaming, idealizing and then retracting that idealization by saying she was being "nice?"  

Knowing the behavior stems from a disorder does help to de-personalize it, and allows us to connect with our empathy.  But her actions may still hurt a lot. You can build whatever narrative confirms your beliefs about yourself and the world – we all do that.  When the narrative is shattered, that's when we really begin to understand who we are.  
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2014, 05:13:11 AM »

Yeah. I get it. Focus on me.

I don't want her in my life. And yes. Her behavior was unacceptable to me. And yes. The healthy part of me wants her gone. That's why I left. That's why I went NC. And her love bombing me is not acceptable to me either. I know what's behind it. I makes me angry. The fact that she can't respect my boundaries does not make her a friend. She has the capacity to ruin my life. She has ruined my life in the past and she is doing it again. And yes. I know I am allowing it. I want her gone. I wish I had never gotten involved with her. I wish she was would stop stalking me. I want here banished from my mind. I want her banished from my heart. I want this done.

And yes. She has BPD. There is no other explanation. And yes, it helps me to accept this. I have been in long term relationships before. And yes. They hurt when we broke up. But not like this. No constant stalking. No manipulations after the fact. This is just madness and I need to make it stop.
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2014, 06:19:36 AM »

You are really working through this, willy45, it's a good example for all of us.  I know it's hard– my heart was broken, too. 
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2014, 08:25:54 AM »

Hey man.

I totally get where you are coming. I think that too. Now that I know, maybe it would work? But, I know this isn't true especially if she isn't willing or capable of acknowledging the role her behavior played. I can. That is something I am capable of. One of the hardest parts of the conversation was reality crashing in. She went straight to the blame game again. Told me how miserable she was with me. Almost as worse as her 'abusive' ex. No... . Sorry for raging at you all the time, I understand how that would drive you away.

So, no growth on her end. Nothing. Same old same old.

Why am I so freaked out then? Because of how easy it was to get sucked back in despite knowing all this stuff. How easy I went back to square one. How easy it was for me to believe her words... . Good and bad. How is that not going to f me up?
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2014, 10:26:42 AM »

And her love bombing me is not acceptable to me either.

Willy - for you to start to heal and detach means looking at the reality.  Love Bomb implies she wanted a romantic relationship and she wants a friendship.  She wants to be your friend - not romantic.  I know this hurts you deeply and I am sorry.

I know what's behind it. I makes me angry. The fact that she can't respect my boundaries does not make her a friend.

If YOU don't respect your own boundaries, how do you expect anyone else to?  What are your boundaries anyways?  Last time you talked to her,  you did say you wished you could be friends but you cannot.  I do not recall you specifically asking for her not to contact you. 

She has the capacity to ruin my life. She has ruined my life in the past and she is doing it again. And yes. I know I am allowing it. I want her gone.

She is gone - she is not your girlfriend and she stays away until a reasonable amount of time when she thinks maybe you are ready to be friends.  If someone had the capacity to ruin my life - I think I would keep them out... . look at your emotions and figure out why you are still holding on after more than a year of being broken up with very little contact.  What pedestal are you holding her up on and why?

I wish I had never gotten involved with her. I wish she was would stop stalking me. I want here banished from my mind. I want her banished from my heart. I want this done.

Black/white thinking... . hate is closely related to love.

Willy - you have the power to let her out of your heart ... . it will hurt, but you do have the power.

This is just madness and I need to make it stop.

What is your therapists treatment plan for you on this? 

You are spinning in circles - what techniques are you practicing to learn to calm your mind?  This is going to take work on your part, very similar to the work we expect our pwBPD to do actually.

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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2014, 12:40:41 PM »

The bottom line is, regardless of the label, someone who says they love you but doesn't make you feel safe doesn't know how to love. And that is something you can't teach her.
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2014, 01:18:40 PM »

Hi Seeking Balance,

To me 'Love Bombing' doesn't imply romantic relationship. Sorry if I don't know the term. The way I define it is over the top statements about someone in order to bring them into something. This is exactly what she did. I'm sorry. I understand that she wants to be my 'friend'. I don't need to keep hearing that. It makes her sound like what she did was sane and 'friendly'. What she did was 'LOVE BOMBING'. She told me she loved me, she told me I was her best friend in the world, she told me that I inspire her, that I am the only one who understands her, that there is a huge whole in her life without me, that life isn't as rich without me in it. Come on. How is that not a 'LOVE BOMB'. And how is that not manipulative. I haven't talked to her. I haven't answered her calls. I haven't responded to her emails. I have done everything in my power to tell her to go away. I sent her an email for a therapist. I told her to call her boyfriend if she EVER had the urge to call me. I have told her to go away. I have told her she was abusive with me. And all I have done is IGNORE. For her to call me and launch into all these feelings, is a LOVE BOMB. How else would you describe it? She tries to elevate me and then when I don't give her what she wants, she devalues me. I am the 'WORST' boyfriend she ever had. There is NO WAY she would ever get back together with me. And on and on. I WASN'T EVEN ASKING HER TO GET BACK TOGETHER WITH ME!

All I did was tell her why her calling me hurts me and why I can't be friends. It then got manipulated into a conversation about how terrible I was when I was with her, despite her clearly saying she didn't want to talk about the relationship.

So, why am I saying this? I'm venting. Why can I not vent? Why isn't OK to just vent? Why isn't OK to just say, yeah, what she did wasn't OK? Not normal? Typical BPD.

And I kind of resent the idea that she 'stayed away a reasonable amount of time when she thinks I maybe ready to be friends'. My entire point is that SHE HASN'T! She has been contacting me non-stop for a year. I just happen to pick up the phone and not hang up on her this time. That does not mean she was just sitting around, giving me space to heal and then gently inquiring if I might be ready to be friends. THIS IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. And this is NOT what I'm saying happened.

The way that I see it is that she has basically been stalking me since I broke up with her. The longest she has ever gone without contacting me is about 6 weeks. I have done everything I can other than call the cops which I have considered but am worried it is only going to make it worse. And I delete all her emails and texts and calls so don't have any supporting evidence anyways. And her abuse of me was emotional. She never hit me so I don't have physical proof.

So, why can't I JUST BE ANGRY! I don't get it. I AM NOT THE ONE HOLDING ON. I AM THE ONE WHO IS TRYING TO HEAL AND MOVE ON. And I was healing. I find it really hard to move on with her constantly calling me. And then I make one mistake and pick up and boom: "LOVE BOMB". No, hey, I know it's been a while and I understand if you can't be friends right now but I was just wondering if you would be open to the idea'. Straight to the idealization, which obviously works on me (she knows that) and then the devaluation when I tell her no. And then all the stuff she said to me really hurt. So, I respond that I can try to be friends but that it will be really hurtful for me. Ok. My Bad. I get that. I shouldn't have said that. I felt like a deer trapped in headlights. She was crying and freaking out when she was devaluing me. Told me I was her soul mate, always was, always will be but that the way I behaved with her tore her apart and she could never be in a relationship with me. She seemed so sad that I couldn't be friends her. The rescuer in me said Ok... . I can try. Then she said maybe we could be together but we would have to be friends first. And it didn't matter if she was with someone else or not. That is insane.

How is this not confusing as all h*ll?

Just venting here guys.

And yes. Obviously I need to some work. It is not like I am shirking that. What I resent is that I DID do all this work. And I was detaching. I had been through the hard stuff. I was doing really well. And I make one small mistake of not hanging up on her because I thought maybe she was a normal human being or something and then all this. All this hurt again. All this pain. The same cycle again. I feel like a complete idiot. I was just on the edge of being free. I did a MOUNTAIN of work. And I guess I have to do it all over again. That is the part I am most angry about. Angry at her and angry at me.

Why is it not OK to vent? Why is it no OK to be angry? Why does the validation only have to go one way?

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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2014, 02:51:11 PM »

For me, it was hard to accept the BPD because that would mean I was "fooled" somehow. Not that I believe my exbf, or most pwBPD, actively go into a r/s looking to manipulate and destroy -- that's just the nature of the beast. It helps to remind myself that I ignored my gut instincts at the beginning of the r/s. Obviously I'm healthy enough to know when something isn't right, now the focus becomes growing healthy enough to trust my gut and not second-guess or sacrifice myself.

Also, my ex was self-aware and high-functioning enough that were plenty of times when I wondered if I was the "crazy" one and he was completely reasonable. For a little while I actually wondered if I might have BPD. (I don't... . I have SAD and have had quite a bit of situational depression, but my therapist insists I'm quite mentally healthy, despite my insistence otherwise, haha.)

It's hard to reconcile logically the disparity between the loving, seemingly functional person and the raging, irrational person. We don't understand it because we can't. I'm thankful that I don't understand it, personally. Of course I still feel anger and sadness and a desperate longing to make sense of it all.
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2014, 04:12:20 PM »

Why is it not OK to vent? Why is it no OK to be angry? Why does the validation only have to go one way?

You can be as angry as you need to be... . at me, at her, at you... . heck, take a bath with that anger and obsess until you are done.  There is healthy productive anger and disruptive, stuck anger - there are also workshops on is it healthy to vent and at what point are you keeping yourself stuck.

When you are ready, there are some workshops that might help you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0

So, the thread title of accepting BPD is not actually where you are maybe?  If we all understand correctly, you are pissed and need to be validated that it is ok to be pissed?  Do I understand you correctly?

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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2014, 07:58:17 PM »

Yeah. I guess I am angry. I am angry at her and I am angry at myself. I am angry that she continued to push my boundaries to the point where I just gave up. And I am angry that I didn't just hang up the phone upon first hearing her voice. I am angry because I was doing so well and I was healing. And I am angry that I have to start from scratch again. I am angry that I fell for her words.

And I am angry that I haven't just been able to say: Ex had BPD. She is going to keep doing this. Every time will be same.

My T. has been telling this to me for months when we were working together. He said: Look, Willy. What you need to know is that your EX fits the profile of BPD like a glove. I can't diagnose. But, based on what you said and her life history and your relationship history and her relationship history, she fits this profile. She is going to call you and text you and email you. And she is going to do this for years. No matter what you say, she is going to come back. No matter what you do, she is going to come back. She will likely do this for the next 2 or 3 years until she finds someone else who is willing to take the abuse. And when that ends, she will come back.

I didn't believe him, really. Maybe I didn't want to believe him. Part of maybe wanted her to contact me with an apology or something. Anything. I guess when we talked and she said all those things to me, I got really hopefully that maybe she had 'seen the light'. Nope. I know... . this is one of the thoughts that get us stuck. But I got stuck.

So, I need to just accept this. Do what I need to do (go NC and maintain that forever and be vigilant for years) and focus on making myself happy so that I don't fall into this trap again. This is terrible. I really thought I was out of the woods. The thought of going back to square one and doing it all over again is what I am the most angry about.

Anyhow, thanks for caring and listening. Sorry I'm being so weird. This just sucks.
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2014, 08:29:23 PM »

No matter what you say, she is going to come back. No matter what you do, she is going to come back.

I'll agree to disagree w/ your T. Mine hasn't come back, but she tests my boundaries, then she goes away. She comes back and tests them again. Yes, that's true, but it's up to me to uphold those boundaries and defend them, then she goes away again. She has no control over me.

go NC and maintain that forever and be vigilant for years.

Don't get caught up in absolute thinking. You have a right to vent and be angry, don't apologize, this is what you feel, don't be hard on yourself. Can you forgive yourself?
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2014, 11:31:45 PM »

It's totally ok to vent. We all need some outlet for feelings that is healthy and non-destructive.

What is non-productive is to be in denial. The facts site she is mentally ill. The facts are that she does not fit your values of somebody you want to be in a relationship with or even a friend.

When your feelings are in opposition to the facts, what do you decide to do?
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2014, 09:51:38 AM »

I found this quote in another topic Seems fitting hear as well


Quote from: AwakenedOne

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=223108.msg12417062#msg12417062

Excerpt
Does my uBPDstbxW have BPD for sure without any doubt? It doesn't matter to me because I look at it like this ->

If she doesn't have BPD I consider her worse because that would make her a selfish, cruel, etc... . person who has no

excuse for being that way. Either way the relationship isn't to be, right?

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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2014, 12:08:37 PM »

This entire thread helped me so much and resonates SO much with where I am in my thought process.  I'm going to print this and keep it at my bed side to read when I let my thoughts go where they should NOT... .

Hang in there, we are all in the same boat on here, just different stages and different people whom me fell for but who ALL could be described the exact same way.  If that ain't BPD, I don't know what IS!

And what I am finding out is there are seven stages of grief, but they don't go in order and they don't come round the mountain one damn time, but may re visit me just when I think I am done with that stage... .   Ridiculous.
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2014, 02:23:12 PM »

Wily, first of all, I love the wren picture you use when you post.

I don't know if you've ever tried birdwatching, but from my perspective it's one of the best ways to get away from your thoughts for a while. Walk in the woods, enjoy nature, enjoy your own company, learn something by accident... . all good stuff.

There are lots of similarities between your story and mine. Six year relationship. Adult child for a mother. Distant father. Abusive past relationships.  Body image issues. Low self-esteem. Lives in perpetual fear and cynicism. But displays a cheery, upbeat "fake it to make it" personality for the rest of the world to see.

Mine was not a yeller but certainly followed the script of going from idealizing to clinging to criticizing to devaluing to distancing. She dumped me abruptly following not an argument, mind you, but a nice dinner. In fact, we hardly ever argued. Neither of us ever swore at the other or even name called.

When the breakup was taking place, my ex sent me an e-mail which was almost word-for-word what yours said to you when she tried to rekindle a "friendship." Great guy, no one cared more, taught her so much, lit up the room, always there for her... .

That's still the craziest part. Nothing but a list of virtues! Highest praise possible! No complaints or reasons for breaking up. And the most deeply disturbing comment of all... . "After all we've experienced, the word "friend" doesn't seem big enough, but in light of all I'm going through right now, it's the best term."

Following that, which was almost one year ago, there have been a couple very ambiguous attempts on her part to re-establish "something" but each time when I've responded, the door immediately slammed shut.

I've been NC since December.

Does any of this have a familiar ring to it?

Learning about pwBPD explains so much. I try to always keep in mind that they are guided by overwhelming, inescapable fears of being alone, of becoming engulfed, and of being abandoned. These form an insidious triangle. Fear of engulfment leads to abandonment, abandonment leads to being alone, and being alone leads to once again the possibility of engulfed.I try not to think of pwBPD as "selfish" but rather just completely unable to calm the demons within. I liken the world they experience to a painful, terrifying, never-ending ambulance ride. "Can't" to me describes a lot of their shortcomings better than "won't." Each new relationship they get involved in becomes the potential elixir of life, the antidote for intractable pain, for them. It's bound to lead to disappointment when the bar is set so high, and when their own emotional tools to love not only others but themselves are so lacking. Each failure leads to more shame and self-doubt, which they already have excessive amounts of.

There are a lot of conversations going on at the same time inside the head of a pwBPD. The result is chaos. I would guess that when she thinks of you, it's with a mixture of sadness, discomfort, shame, guilt, wistfulness and longing to return to the early fantasy days, a feeling of how decent, safe, and comforting you were, a possible target for a temporary fix for the profound emptiness, a desire to gain some kind of control of a life spinning out of control, and who knows what else.

Does she know you suspect she has BPD? Not that I'm advocating that you tell her!

I think you have every right to vent and I think it's normal to be tortured by all the conflicting feelings and emotions you're experiencing. One thing I've wrestled with mightily is the struggle between the angry side of me and the compassionate side. I've got to let that anger have its full say and eventually sit back down and give compassion the podium. Trust your T for validation. He's gotten to know you pretty well. Give yourself time. Keep telling yourself this isn't your average r/s problem, because it isn't. Be patient. Expect good days and bad days. Your world will come back to you. But I would advise you to reconnect with that world without her playing a role in it.

Stay strong, Wily. You've got brothers!
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2014, 11:05:48 PM »

Hi Day2Day,

Thank you so much for the thoughtful post! I really appreciate it. Yeah. It's so crazy.It doesn't make any sense. It's like she wants all the benefits of a relationship without a relationship. It's completely non sensicle in my mind. Forget that. Why would I want that? Makes no sense.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2014, 11:29:13 PM »

I know how you feel, it is difficult to accept that someone that we cared so deeply for, is sick. It took me many months until it finally sunk in, and I finally accepted it. I was in disbelief, because I think I was in denial. There was a small part of me that didn't want to accept it, because I thought that I could somehow make her understand, or try to help her. I had to let that ideal go, until I did that, I accepted it for what it is.

I cannot begin to count the different ways that I've tried to filter my situation through a logical context... . All I wanted to do is to be able to understand, stop hurting, help, and then things would be better. Then, I moved on to  understand for my own sanity. Confusion loomed... . and I tried so hard to get it. Then I realized... . I was driving myself crazy. And I started to detach... . slowly... . which has been excruciatingly painful for me... . my husband and I have been together for 19 years... . but as I took more time to focus on myself, my codependent nature... . and providing a safe and healthy environment for my son... . the less I desired understanding. Peace came to me as I grieved... . it replaced my frantic race towards fitting this into a context. Trust me when I say, I completely see and have felt the need to understand. But with that time and energy you can focus on all of the amazing things that you have in your life and further untangle yourself from these unhealthy patterns.

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious"

-Albert Einstein
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2014, 12:32:14 AM »

Yes. Thanks. I'm starting to see that now. I got angry today, which was good. And then a thought dawned on me... . 'What a b!tch'. Sorry for the sexist language. It's almost funny. To say all these wonderful things and then turn around and say all these hurtful things. Seriously. What a b!tch. To beg me to be her best friend and then tell me how I made her so miserable. The most miserable she's ever been. That is just so hurtful. And the right after telling me she doesn't want to talk about the relationship. And then telling me not to be mean to her. What the h#'ll. F that.
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2014, 08:20:47 AM »

Yes. Thanks. I'm starting to see that now. I got angry today, which was good. And then a thought dawned on me... . 'What a b!tch'. Sorry for the sexist language. It's almost funny. To say all these wonderful things and then turn around and say all these hurtful things. Seriously. What a b!tch. To beg me to be her best friend and then tell me how I made her so miserable. The most miserable she's ever been. That is just so hurtful. And the right after telling me she doesn't want to talk about the relationship. And then telling me not to be mean to her. What the h#'ll. F that.

You're triggered and hurt.

She's triggered and hurt.
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« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2014, 09:24:42 AM »

Yeah. Agreed. But regardless, I still didn't say anything hurtful to her like that. I think that is the difference. I can feel my emotions, know where they come from, and not lash out. She, on the other hand, can't. And that is why I left. That's the difference here. Of course I'm triggered. And of course she is triggered. That's the WHOLE REASON to not talk. But that doesn't make sense to her.

And her emotional map is so all over the place, it doesn't make any sense. I don't care that she is mentally unstable. I'm fed up with it. That is why I left her. That is why I've gone NC. She is an absolute emotional bully. She even had the nerve on this phone call to chastise me for 'not being nice to her' for the last few times I mistakenly picked up the phone and told her I was get a therapist if she ever had the urge to call me again. She had to nerve to chastise me for the second last time I talked to her and she was begging me to explain to her why I left and I was 100% honest with her for the first time. I left her because she was emotionally and verbally abusive. She kept pushing it. So I told her. That was the truth. And this was after I told her we shouldn't speak, that I didn't have anything nice to say and that we should just leave it be and heal. But she kept pushing and didn't like the answer. Then she pulled the whole guilt trip again. I mean, come on. If someone keeps calling and texting and emailing and they have been specifically told not to and then the person who said 'NO' says 'NO' again, that isn't being mean. It is totally ludicrous. To her, she contacts me out of 'love for me' (Her words).

She is just so manipulative. Guilt trips, push/pull. She is an emotional bully. That is how she is with her family. And, lucky me. She considers me her family. Awesome. I really want her to go away.

Man. It is so annoying. Now, she is trying to get involved in one of the big projects I am working on. I wish to God she didn't work in the same area that I do. We didn't when we were together but now we do. And it is just so awesome that I can't not do it. An opportunity of a life time for me. Now she sees that I am in the inner circle of a group that she knows but that I'm not sure she truly a part of. I got into this circle because of how I am. She knows this inner circle because of her position at work. It is tainting my feelings towards this project, which is the biggest project I have ever worked on in my life. She sent me a text on Friday asking me to pick my brain on how she can use my project with some of her contacts. AGGGGGG! It just feels like she is brainstorming ways to get into what I'm doing from her position. Push. Push. Push. She can't just let me have this. She has to be a part of it. I am a contractor. She is an employee. She doesn't have to do this. She basically can't get fired. She can do a million other things. Why push on this now? Because I'm involved. It is creepy and I hate it.

But, I stand by my earlier comment. Mental illness or not. She is an emotional bully. A verbal and emotional abuser. And she is trying to suck me back into her life in any way she can.

Thanks for listening.
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« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2014, 09:33:46 AM »

Oh. And in terms of the original subject of this post: I'm having trouble just accepting the fact that my ex has BPD. This behavior just seems so typical of BPD. Push/pull. Anger. Rejection. Lashing out. Verbal abuse. Emotional manipulations. I don't care if she is triggered or not. We all are. I didn't do anything or say anything to cause her to act this way. A normal human being would have listened to my words 'I can't just be friends with you, it is too painful' and heard those and not twist them into some sick thing about me begging for her to come back. A normal human being with a healthy dose of emotional stability would hear that and say 'Oh, I'm so sorry. I know you told me not to call before. I didn't realize how it made you feel. I'm really sorry I caused you pain again'. And that would be that. In fact, that would have been that 1.5 years ago, 1 year ago, 6 months ago. And now. A BPD would do exactly as she did. Blame. Guilt. Shame. Idealize. Devalue.

If I am triggered, it is because it triggers the memories of all the emotional abuse I took when I was with her. My brain goes into automatic What the heck mode and can't make sense of it. My body is FREAKING OUT because it knows it is dangerous. And I am just now starting to get very angry again at her for doing this AGAIN. And I keep friggin' falling for it. I just want to accept that this person is not well, that she is poison for me. That she was before. That she is now. That she is not doing anything to get better (because the problem, to her, clearly lies with me even though I am her best friend in the entire world). So, I just need to let go. Not engage.
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« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2014, 09:42:09 AM »

Yeah. Agreed. But regardless, I still didn't say anything hurtful to her like that. I think that is the difference. I can feel my emotions, know where they come from, and not lash out. She, on the other hand, can't. And that is why I left. That's the difference here. Of course I'm triggered. And of course she is triggered. That's the WHOLE REASON to not talk. But that doesn't make sense to her.

Willy, what about the emotion of "fear"?   Like you, I locked all my doors, blocked all access, and drew boundaries.   But "fear" still keeps me stuck in some way.   It's got everything to do with me, and my internal map, and nothing to do with my ex-girlfriend.   There are plenty of scary people I don't fear [an old boss comes to mind] but, with my ex-girlfriend, I fear what happens to me when I interact with her.

So, what does this mean?   Do I sit behind locked doors for the rest of my life, hoping that she doesn't hunt me down?  

I think it means I learn to draw boundaries where I feel safe.   I don't want to live in fear of reacting somehow if she contacts me.  

She sent me a text on Friday asking me to pick my brain on how she can use my project with some of her contacts. AGGGGGG! It just feels like she is brainstorming ways to get into what I'm doing from her position. Push. Push. Push. She can't just let me have this. She has to be a part of it. I am a contractor. She is an employee. She doesn't have to do this. She basically can't get fired. She can do a million other things. Why push on this now? Because I'm involved. It is creepy and I hate it.

This IS painful.  What can you do now to take care of you?  How do you draw boundaries in a way to make you feel safe?  
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« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2014, 10:20:24 AM »

Yeah. Agreed. But regardless, I still didn't say anything hurtful to her like that. I think that is the difference. I can feel my emotions, know where they come from, and not lash out. She, on the other hand, can't.

You're expecting her to behave as a non-disordered person, you say that she can't. If she is triggered, then take it as just that, yes they say things that are painful and hurtful, but you will eventually become depersonalized.

And she is trying to suck me back into her life in any way she can.

Sucked back into what? If you have boundaries in place, stick to them. It's up to you to defend your boundaries.
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« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2014, 11:38:30 AM »

Yes. That is 100% true! I was expecting her to react as a non-disordered person. This is where I clearly get stuck and I guess the reason for my thread. It is about accepting that she is disordered. And as such, I cannot expect there to ever be a normal response or any real empathy. I think in the past, any empathy I thought was coming from her in terms of what she felt was not empathy towards me but rather her response in terms of how my feelings might impact her. Man, that is such an incredible insight. I honestly can't remember a time when something that was bothering me was empathized with. It was always turned into how my feelings impacted her. She would either tell me to stop feeling that or would tell me why how my feelings impacted her. Wow. That is pretty nuts. I guess this is why the BPD label is so powerful. It puts things into complete context. It takes away the hurt of it all because it has NOTHING to do with me. She just doesn't have that capacity.

I'm still in shock that she would continue to push my boundaries after everything I've said to her. Really. It is shocking. It is shocking that she considers me her best friend in the world. So, so, so, so weird.
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« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2014, 11:45:11 AM »

She just doesn't have that capacity.

You are correct. It's arrested development.

I'm still in shock that she would continue to push my boundaries after everything I've said to her.

Mine still pushes mine, but I defend them and I've become more depersonalized.

It takes time willy45. It took me a long time to accept it. I had my emotions vested, and not looking at the big picture, the bar was set too high. I can't expect her to react / cope like me. She simply copes differently.
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2014, 11:50:10 AM »

5 Stages of detachment are to the right Willy -

Step 1 - Acknowledgment

Anger is a mask for pain - you are angry and having a hard time accepting the facts - can you push past the anger and access the pain?  What are you really hurting about Willy?
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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2014, 12:52:00 PM »

Willy, can it be that you are more upset with yourself than with her? Turning her into a scapegoat more than facing yourself? Feel your feelings. Find where they are coming from. Free yourself. This isn't about her behaviors anymore, it's about your reactions. About setting up your life now to not have to deal with her, and the pains that get stirred up, if you so choose. What can you do to better your situation?
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2014, 02:19:46 PM »

Yeah. I don't think I'm more angry at myself. I mean, I am in the sense that I answered the call. That was stupid. And I am mad at myself that I just forgot that she is a crazy lunatic or that she would have any caring for me whatsoever. But no. I am more angry at her. I've spent too long being angry at myself. That isn't productive for me. Anger is a useful emotion to push away things that are harmful. And that is what I need to do. I know everyone is going to jump all over for me for saying that I am angry that she continues to push the boundaries further and further. But What the heck? Why should I NOT be angry. Isn't NOT being angry about it the whole reason why I still let it happen? I get all this internally focused stuff. But right now, I don't find it helpful. It is just another way to beat myself up about everything and that is EXACTLY what she is praying on. It is the exact purpose of her words. It is the exact outcome she expects and wants. Trust me. I know this person.

So no. I can forgive myself for being hopeful that she got some help or came to some kind of realization that would make her not such a crazy person. But no, I'm not going take on the anger of having this crazy person affect me. She knows what she is doing. She doesn't care. She just keeps pushing. And pushing. And pushing. F that.

And as for focusing on the pain, that doesn't seem super helpful for me right now. What I need to focus on is getting this person out of my life. Focusing on the pain doesn't help in that regard. There is plenty of time for that. I need to harness the anger to make sure I don't ever have contact with her again. And, if I happen to pump into her, I can see her for who she truly is... . a sad, lonely, abusive person who only wants from me something to make herself feel better regardless of the costs to me. That, is what she wants. And I am not going to give it to her.
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« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2014, 02:50:16 PM »

I know everyone is going to jump all over for me for saying that I am angry that she continues to push the boundaries further and further. But What the heck? Why should I NOT be angry. Isn't NOT being angry about it the whole reason why I still let it happen?

The benefit of this community is that no one will "jump all over you."   It seems to me that, on the detaching board, we are trying to help each other process difficult circumstances.   To redirect attention to areas that may be helpful.   I firmly believe "detachment leads to freedom."

If anger lets you draw boundaries, perhaps it may be viewed as healthy, at least initally.  For me, a difficult downside to anger has been that "anger can be like taking poison, and expecting the other person to die."   

This was a helpful thread for me on anger:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0

What are you doing to take care of yourself? 
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2014, 03:27:46 PM »

I honestly can't remember a time when something that was bothering me was empathized with. It was always turned into how my feelings impacted her. She would either tell me to stop feeling that or would tell me why how my feelings impacted her. Wow. That is pretty nuts.

My uBPDstbxW did the exact same thing.
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2014, 04:40:04 PM »

Yeah. I don't know why it doesn't sink in. I made a huge mistake telling how her contact with me made me feel. I'm sure she loved to hear that. And it didn't matter to her one bit. As long as she got her best friend back. It's all about her. I don't matter. The same feeling as when she would rage at me and then wonder why I looked so glum. And then telling me I had mental health issues that I should look into. I mean, come on. I do have mental health issues and that issue is her in my life in any capacity.

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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2014, 04:57:46 PM »

I honestly can't remember a time when something that was bothering me was empathized with. It was always turned into how my feelings impacted her. She would either tell me to stop feeling that or would tell me why how my feelings impacted her. Wow. That is pretty nuts.

My uBPDstbxW did the exact same thing.

This is so, so true! ":)on't have a problem because it takes the focus away from all mine. Don't love your dogs or your hobbies or your family because it takes your time away from me. Don't get sick because it triggers my fear of abandonment."

Such BS when you look back.

Wily, there's a saying to the effect that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone can't be following you. I hear what you're saying here. You want her to leave you the F alone! You may have to take some extraordinary measures here: change your phone number, change your e-mail address, block her on social media, change your locks. Maybe you've done some of these.

Do you happen to know anyone who's mobbed up who owes you a favor?

Of course I'm joking! Hope it make ya laugh... .

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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2014, 05:14:10 PM »

I was having the same problem, I had to understand everything, I suppose so if I could understand it I could fix it... . but that's crazy making because you may understand one aspect of it, but she/he will turn around and try something new and unique and just when you think you're on top of things you'll be off chasing another answer and using all that energy focused in, rather than focused on a good future for yourself.  I was amazed at how much energy was freed up when I stopped trying to figure him out.  I finally, somehow got so tired of doing it that I just quit.  I sometimes want to convince him I'm not the terible person he thinks I am, but for the most part I'm beyond that too because I know it's his sickness speaking.  When I tell him if you don't want me in your life let me know, because I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want me, then he'll be instantly rational.  I think all that crazy making stuff is a game just to keep us off balance and at their mercy.
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2014, 05:48:52 PM »

Ha ha. I like that quote... . Just because your paranoid doesn't mean someone's not after you. Love it. That's totally how I feel. I asked my T what she was after. He said 'all of you', she wants to ' devour you'. I guess that freaked me out. I guess he just wanted to warn me because this is dangerous. And honestly, I believe him. I know her and I know what she is capable of. She wants to push and push and push. Until what? Yes. I need to get a new phone number. It's tied to my business though, which sucks.
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« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2014, 11:51:11 PM »

I went out on a limb today and called up an old mutual friend of mine who is still really close to my ex. She was one of my best friends back in the day but I kind of just let my ex have her as I figured she needed friends and I have tons. Anyhow, a couple of days ago, it dawned on me that this mutual friend witnessed one of my ex's meltdowns (one of the few times I could remember there being a third party present).

We were going to a baseball game to meet this friend. My ex was an hour late. When she showed up, I had my bike and tried to lock it up. She told me it should go somewhere away from the crowds. So, as I walked towards a place with less people, she started yelling at me to hurry up. I walked back and she was furious. She started going on and on about how we were late and to hurry up and why did I have to put the bike so far away. I told her she was the one who was an hour late and she is the one who told me to lock up the bike further away so calm down. We ended up finding her friend and all seemed fine with her. She was happy to see us. But my ex started to have a complete meltdown. We went up to the seats and she disappeared for an hour. She found us and had to go to the bathroom so my friend and I waited outside. We waited for about 40 minutes and my ex didn't return. I went looking around from her and finally found her. She berated me for not waiting for her at the bathroom (which I was, with our mutual friend). And then she took off again. I remember looking over at our mutual friend and she looked back at me. She was half smiling but I think she was just feeling awkward and didn't know what to say. It was weird.

Anyhow, I called up the mutual friend tonight. I haven't spoken to her in two years. I wasn't sure what I was looking for. Only that I remembered this time and thought maybe I could talk to her about it. I also wanted to talk to her about my ex constantly contacting me and wondering if she had any advice or could figure something out. I was nervous because I didn't know how it would go. The strange thing is, I started talking about why I broke up with my ex (she never really knew) and she brought up the baseball time and told me she thought that was really strange. She said: "You know, a handful of those times would be all it takes to end a relationship". And then she said: "I can't imagine what 5 years of that would have been like".

She seemed really open to hearing what I had to say. She felt kind of bad for not talking to me about it sooner. She said that she could see things weren't right between us but that she never really brought it up and that she was sorry for that. I told her that it was OK. It wasn't her role to do that. And that really it was my mistake for not talking about it anyways. It was a really good call.

I hope that this validation can help. I have found one of the hardest things about all this is that nobody else witnessed it. They just witness me now and what a mess I am. It was really great to get some validation from someone else who I was close to, who is close to her, and who seemed to really listen.

I told her not to tell my ex that I called and that my intention wasn't to at all get in the way of their friendship (it's not). I told her that I still love my ex very, very much but that her constant contact of me is making me insane and breaking me. She seemed to get that. She then told me stories about when she was in an abusive relationship, so she understand how I felt. She said it wasn't that hard for her to leave because she didn't love the person she was with who was abusive. She just left. She said that it must be so hard for me because I do still love this person.

Anyhow, I hope this piece of validation can help a little bit. My friend asked me if there was anything she could do to help. I told her no, just her sharing that and how weird she thought it was and how odd her husband thought it was was really helpful.

Her advice to me: change your phone number.

I think I'm going to have to do that.

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heartandwhole
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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2014, 10:16:10 AM »

Hi willy45,

I'm glad that you were able to talk to someone who actually experienced a little of the behavior that was so difficult in your relationship, that is indeed validating.  :)o you feel like some weight has come off your shoulders a bit?

Her advice to me: change your phone number.

I think I'm going to have to do that.

Sounds like a plan.  If you've asked her to stop contacting you, and she continues, it might be a good idea.  
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When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
willy45
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 11:11:12 AM »

For some reason, I feel worse. I have no idea why. I guess now I just have to grieve. That's all that is left to do. The sh'tty thing is, I did grieve before. And I was taking my time with it. And I was feeling better. I resent having to do it again.

I have asked her before to not contact me. She has never respected it before. My question now is do I tell her again or just change my number?
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willy45
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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 11:33:57 AM »

I don't know why I feel so terrible today. Spoke to a mutual friend last night and she was nothing but sympathetic and validating. Went to see my T and he was the same.

Why do I feel like such ___ today?

I am still terrified of her contacting me. And I am terrified of this happening again. I can change my phone number but she will still be able to email me. I can't just permanently delete emails on GMAIL. It goes to Trash.

And I'm terrified I will see her at a big event next month that I can't miss. I don't want to see her. I don't want to miss her more. I know that I will if I do. I know I will feel ___ty about myself.

Agggg... . I'm really spiraling out of control here.
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« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 12:10:50 PM »

Have you taken the "depression" test?

bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79772.0
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