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Author Topic: Do you think they ever loved you, or were just afraid of being alone?  (Read 10185 times)
paperlung
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« on: January 16, 2015, 10:42:48 PM »

This sentence in one of 2010's old posts here (which I highly recommended reading) really pulled on my heartstrings.

Excerpt
Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168086.0
<br/>:)o you agree with this statement? Do you think your ex ever genuinely loved you? I know mine said that she did, but did she really? How can someone who doesn't even love themself, love somebody else? Or even know what love truly is if they never even experienced it as a a child from their parents?

My ex said to me whenever a family member would say, "I love you," she would say it back, but that it felt cold and hollow. As if it she didn't feel like she really meant it.

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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 11:14:36 PM »

Her longing for me seemed desperate, but was it real ? ! My thought about was that she lived in the moment, ... .when she saw me i was longet for, when i was away  or out of sight resulted in no contact. Yes confusing.
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 01:19:58 AM »

Someone who needed you a while. Theres no love just a 'need'.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 01:22:21 AM »

They needed you a while.
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 03:06:56 AM »

I think mine did truly love me. Maybe in a child like way the way because emotionally they are stuck in the child like phase. But yes I think mine did, as much as he was capable. Maybe only for as long as I met his needs but while we were meeting his needs I think he did.

Maybe I want to think that too, but that's OK. We had something and I like to think it was love.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2015, 03:18:00 AM »

I don't know if it really is just about need. I don't want to defend BPD neither am I living in a bubble far from reality where I persuade myself my xBPDgf loved me. But I do really think they loved us. They obviously didn't love us in a mature way, they loved us more like children. But then again: there also are people without BPD who are not capable of love in the way we would do. I think BPD is a spectrum and people are different as people just are.

If you knew exactly that your BPD loved you truly, would it help you to detach properly or would it actually make you feel like maybe there'll be a time when they can love you again?

Of course, when we know we're loved we feel validated and maybe kind of soothed because the relationship was at least in some way real. But it is over now. And I sometimes think it's easier to say to yourself that you were in a relationship with someone who just wasn't able to have a relationship. These days I feel like mine is just a child in an adult's body and that really helps me.
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2015, 03:52:31 AM »

I don't think a BPD is in any way capable of love. They need, but love, no way. Love is about giving, not taking. Their idea of love is a Disney fairytale, you just meet your prince and everyone lives happily ever after, until they set fire to the relationship. Love takes time, it is built. A person truly in love believes in the other person and doesn't run away at the first hurdle. A person in love doesn't tell you they have never loved anyone like they love you and then two weeks later go 100% ST. My ex was hilarious, she said that she loved her mom more than anyone else loved their mom, she didn't love her mom, she just used her, they are entwined in a grotesque dance of neediness and addiction to each other, the mom needs to be needed and my ex still thinks of herself as the little 5 year old, that isn't love in any way.

Love is not when you need someone to "complete" you, it's when you want to be with someone because they enhance your life.

This sentence in one of 2010's old posts here (which I highly recommended reading) really pulled on my heartstrings.

Excerpt
Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168086.0

Do you agree with this statement? Do you think your ex ever genuinely loved you? I know mine said that she did, but did she really? How can someone who doesn't even love themself, love somebody else? Or even know what love truly is if they never even experienced it as a a child from their parents?

My ex said to me whenever a family member would say, "I love you," she would say it back, but that it felt cold and hollow. As if it she didn't feel like she really meant it.

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MrConfusedWithItAll
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2015, 04:00:28 AM »

I thought mine loved me - but in retrospect I was needed and not loved.  When she found a replacement I was no longer needed.  It was then a goodbye.
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Trog
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2015, 04:24:57 AM »

Just read 2010s post. It's my marriage word for word. I am the lonely child, she mirrored everything I wanted and so I believed she was my soulmate (as she told me she was), it was almost spiritual for me her mirroring but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met. The minute you have needs or step back, the ___ hits the fan.

It hurts to say it but these people with BPD don't love us like we understand love. We fulfill a need, a need that will eventually be unmet again and they have no choice but to find another attachment and their pain goes on forever.

If rather not have met my exbPDw but if I had to im glad I'm an Non, at least I stand a cat in hells chance of happiness
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 07:06:09 AM »

My uBPDxw once told me in one of her few moments of reality where she was fully exposing her inner turmoil. She said "I don't know what love is. I feel that I need to be sexually desired by men but I know that is not love".
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 08:23:52 AM »

They feel love but for a short period of time. They can't sustain it. That is because their brain is damaged. One day they can wake up and say- "hey I just don't love you anymore. I do not know why, but that is how I feel it" And they will not be lying. Here is a quote from a real Borderline.

Then one day, I won't love them anymore. It probably doesn't actually happen overnight, but it feels like it. I'll wake up and I just… don't want them in my life. And the fact they still love me will actually disgust me. I will be repulsed by the fact that they can't just “get over” me the way I'm already over them. And I'll hurt and I'll feel bad because I hurt them and I'll cry because I feel bad. But I won't really care, I'll walk away and it will be as though I never truly loved them and I won't know why. I'll say “he just wasn't right for me”? and I'll feel bad because I don't believe there's anyone out there who IS right for me and maybe that last one was the only chance I'll ever get to not die alone. And I'll tell myself I'm OK with dying alone because at least that way I can't hurt anyone else- including myself. But then I always crave love again…
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2015, 08:53:37 AM »

If she loved me, loves me, or just needed me doesn't really matter to me. I loved her and did everything I could to show her that. People make mistakes. But for her to leave me for two different guys and lie about it isn't a mistake. A one night stand is a mistake. A mistake that is hard to get past. But actually lining guys up behind my back and lying about it is a lot more than a mistake. Bpd or not that is a long calculated plan. She had plenty of time to see what she was doing. Bpd or not that just isn't someone I would want to be with. I think we should all look past the questions about our exes and start moving forward. I am guilty of the same thing. She called me two nights ago from an unknown number crying and crying. I told her to call her boyfriend. She said he said mean things to her. I told her I did everything I could for her and she left me for someone else. She said she was sorry for calling and hung up.

She clearly has no control over anything she does. Could you imagine ever calling someone for help that you treated so badly? These exes are extremely ill and will never be in stable relationships or live happy lives without seeking help. We are all here because we loved them. We loved too much. We hurt ourselves because of this.
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 10:11:43 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.
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Trog
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 10:23:23 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

That's interesting. Mirroring you and luring you into a certain position only to abuse you later, I think it's premeditated. Especially when they have done it over and over 10 times or more, been sectioned and refuse help despite the clear evidence they have an issue.

Personally I don't think people like that should be roaming the streets to pick off their next victim. And yes, I do understand my part in the dance, but not every person on the street is capable of what those with BPD are. They wreak havoc, as do con artists. I think they are con artists.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 10:26:04 AM »

I have no doubt my exgf did and didn't and did and didn't and did and didn't and will continue that. How she feels today or tomorrow or yesterday is nothing I have any control over.

Having been around the BPD block several times with this person it is easier for me not to take it as personally but still stings at times.
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 10:27:34 AM »

My analysis is that they loved you at first, like infatuation, and then when it wanes ... .PD traits start to dominate his or her emotion and then you become the prey / target for their disorder.  The transition is not gradual, it is pretty much black or white in their mind, but they do struggle with it to reconcile this change as well.  So you will notice lots of phrases that come out of her or his mouth from no where ... .seemingly justifying their changes.  Eventually, it becomes full blown and then there will be no return.  You are then officially the "target" for his or her disorder.  At that stage, you ought to be smart enough to plan an exit plan or damage control plan ... .PDs' brains are much like crocodiles, they react and driven by hardwired emotions and mostly are fear.  When you do loving things to them, their brain perceives it as fear.  My NPDw flips out and reject all what I try to do for her for valentine, anniversary,  birthday and other occasions.  Normal people receive and appreciate.  She receive and then react out in rage or some strange provocations ensue ... .so for first time in 16 years that we have been together, I have stopped celebrating couple's holidays.  The extra grief for supposelly happy occasions are just not worth it.  So if you are dating someone with PD, take my words into consideration.  It is very odd and like a bizarro world that they live in... .but that is what happens that we get to live in one too once you partner up with one.  Good luck.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 10:27:45 AM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

When my not-so-healthy self gave my adult love to an adult with a child's mind ... .it was very gratifying for me to be her rescuer.  I never thought about the back end.  

My child got angry at me (and hid her rage), and got even with me (by cheating on me while childishly playing victim to new supply) and then ran off and punished me by abandonment.  She still tries to punish me and triangulate me. I just don't play that game any longer. Nothing has changed for her... .and since she is very attractive, she can get away with it as long as she desires. Our society even backs up her behavior. Listen to a song or watch a movie... .all the reinforcement is there everywhere you look or hear.

So... .did she ever love me.  Yes.  The best that she could.  
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 10:32:16 AM »

I think the point of 2010's post was about detaching with love, with compassion.  Seeing things as they are, not as we may want them to be.

They loved you in the only way they knew how.  Forgive them, if you can.
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mywifecrazy
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 10:51:54 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

I disagree with this 100% at least in my experience which is the only thing any of us can speak of. My uBPDxw's actions revealed a deep level of premeditation, purposeful deceit and planning. Disordered or not I don't think it's realistic or healthy for us think they acted like hypnotized zombies and couldn't control their actions. If we do we are ripe for being abused again. No disrespect meant just the way I see it. That being said I do feel sorry for my uBPDxw as she too is a victim of her actions but she does have the power to change her course in life.

MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 10:55:37 AM »

Good question. In the first year or so, I felt intensely loved. Like, to the brink of obsession. At first I felt unconfortable with it, but after a while you get used to her wanting to spend every minute of the day with you and constantly texting you. You get so used to it, that when it dies off in the years after, it feels very strange.

With my ex is was, as soon as she noticed I was really in her pocket, that the roles were reversed and I needed her, i was obsessed with her, the intense loving stopped, save a few moments when she would get her way or get presents.
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 11:03:48 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

That's interesting. Mirroring you and luring you into a certain position only to abuse you later, I think it's premeditated. Especially when they have done it over and over 10 times or more, been sectioned and refuse help despite the clear evidence they have an issue.

Personally I don't think people like that should be roaming the streets to pick off their next victim. And yes, I do understand my part in the dance, but not every person on the street is capable of what those with BPD are. They wreak havoc, as do con artists. I think they are con artists.

I am fairly well convinced that mine planned the b/u and disappearing act well in advance... .she was living with me and needed to line up people to help her move, change her address, etc. (I even recall her going to the post office for some, at the time, odd reason)... .all the while acting as if all was perfectly normal - I would give her an Oscar for her performance! This is part of our dynamic; we WERE conned!
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 11:21:53 AM »

I struggle with this as well... .I remember that it was REALLY intense at first - like I had butterflies in my stomach that I never had before... .it was a great feeling I have to admit... .it reinforced the idea that she was THE ONE, I truly believed that this was the culmination and final stop in my dating life... .that feeling ended permanently after what would be the first of several recycles... .

There were many things that happened during our relationship (and certainly after) that made me doubt that she actually loved me... .I was reminder by someone who posted above about real love to include giving and wonder if anyone else had experienced this:

On those occasions like birthdays, Christmas or anniversaries where gift giving was part of the expectation, I saw something in her that I never saw with anyone that had given me a gift in the past. When someone gives a gift, they usually romance the gift with a mixture of expectation and slight concern about whether the recipient would like it, or that it would fit, be the right color or otherwise be a token of appreciation. However, my BPDex by virtue of her body language and such, would sit down and watch with a... .sort of... .'can we get this over with and move on to the next thing?' air that was pretty clear. There was none of that normal anxiety related to the gift making the recipient happy.

I always thought that this was odd but it seems to me, after the fact, that this was consistent with someone who was not giving of their heart. It was something that they HAD to do and could really care less about making the recipient/person they claimed to love happy in expressing their feelings for them through gift giving.

Anyone else have this experience?
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JRT
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 11:24:20 AM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 11:34:29 AM »

Just to turn this on it's head slightly and get people thinking. I ask the following question, mainly to those of you who have identified yourselves as co-dependent and rescuer type personalities.

Do you think you ever loved them, or were you just afraid of being alone?

The reason I ask, is that it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently and might help you to think about the original question and whether or not they did love you.

For many of us that fall into the above categories, our lives have been dedicated to the needs of others in order to seek approval or acceptance. Many of us were seeking love from parents or loved ones that were emotionally unavailable or incapable of showing us that unconditional love. That's why we spent our lives doing for others just so we could feel that "love". But was it really love? What does love feel like? When we got that attention or a glimpse of acceptance, it felt great, we felt so wonderful inside and to us that must have been what love feels like, because it made us feel good about ourselves.

Just like an addict, every time that feeling faded away, we did more and more to get that feeling back.

The difference between many of us and pwBPD, is that we are the ones who can be afraid of being alone, a pwBPD is afraid of being abandoned. It's how we fit together in this dysfunctional dance. We need them as much as they need us because we don't want to be alone and they don't want to be abandoned.

So given that thinking, if what we felt was perceived as love to us, would it not be right to say that what a pwBPD felt at the time was indeed love to them too?


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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 11:50:02 AM »

I think that for me there was probably a combination of factors part of it was a 'rescuer' mentality, but that probably served to reinforce the love that I had already felt for her. Sparing the details, she had genuine qualities that I had adored and found hard to come by in other women.
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paperlung
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2015, 12:05:02 PM »

They feel love but for a short period of time. They can't sustain it. That is because their brain is damaged. One day they can wake up and say- "hey I just don't love you anymore. I do not know why, but that is how I feel it" And they will not be lying. Here is a quote from a real Borderline.

Then one day, I won't love them anymore. It probably doesn't actually happen overnight, but it feels like it. I'll wake up and I just… don't want them in my life. And the fact they still love me will actually disgust me. I will be repulsed by the fact that they can't just “get over” me the way I'm already over them. And I'll hurt and I'll feel bad because I hurt them and I'll cry because I feel bad. But I won't really care, I'll walk away and it will be as though I never truly loved them and I won't know why. I'll say “he just wasn't right for me”? and I'll feel bad because I don't believe there's anyone out there who IS right for me and maybe that last one was the only chance I'll ever get to not die alone. And I'll tell myself I'm OK with dying alone because at least that way I can't hurt anyone else- including myself. But then I always crave love again…

They can't sustain it... .I witnessed that on a couple of occasions early on (after the honeymoon had passed). She texted or called me (I can't remember) and told me she didn't love me anymore and that the spark was gone. This came pretty much out of left filed because I thought things between us were fine; there was no turmoil whatsoever, we got along great and never argued. I was totally flabbergasted with her decision and very upset. I remember calling her up, asking why; she seemed so cold and detached from me.

The next day she apologized to me and said she made a mistake, "You know what I get like when I'm feeling depressed." We were back together again in less than 24 hours.

Something very similar happened again a couple of months later and the end result was the same. Randomly decides to end the relationship, says she doesn't love me/no spark anymore, but the next day she apologizes using pretty much the same excuses.

I was a very good boyfriend to her. Almost certain the best she's ever had. Those mini-breakups never made sense to me. She always felt she could not relate to me because my life was much different than her's (I had a job, I went to school, I had friends, and a very loving family to go home to). She had none of that.
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 01:52:22 PM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

That's interesting. Mirroring you and luring you into a certain position only to abuse you later, I think it's premeditated. Especially when they have done it over and over 10 times or more, been sectioned and refuse help despite the clear evidence they have an issue.

Personally I don't think people like that should be roaming the streets to pick off their next victim. And yes, I do understand my part in the dance, but not every person on the street is capable of what those with BPD are. They wreak havoc, as do con artists. I think they are con artists.

I understand your viewpoint, but this suggests that the entire relationship, from the very beginning, was a premeditated con without any love or genuine feelings from your BPD partner.  I can say that that wasn't the case in my r/s; although I (obviously) can't speak to anyone else's experience.

Remember: according to the theories of BPD, it is a disorder of arrested emotional development.  Think of a young child: how they are happy one minute and can be screaming and crying a few minutes later.  BPD is a disorder of emotional dysregulation... .so it's not so much that they have "pre-planned" the demise of your r/s, it's more that when they engage in an adult r/s they are unable to deal with the sometimes intense emotional episodes that living in close proximity with another human being "brings up."

This doesn't absolve them of the responsibility to seek help, btw. I'm just speaking to the idea that the entire r/s - from the mirroring to the seduction to the abandonment is "premeditated."

I copied this off the internet - I don't remember where - but it is written by someone with BPD:

"I have borderline personality disorder - but it's not as much a negative influence in my life as it once was. I have learned coping skills and changed my lifestyle to reduce stress, but it does still factor in my relationships.

I can only speak for me, but part of the philosophy ingrained in me by trauma has been that there is a 'right' way to do things. That 'right' way means that everyone around me will be happy and love me (because I will have behaved and got it 'right', mostly by mind reading what others want and people pleasing).  In this philosophy, I am unworthy, so I ignore and bury my needs and get them met by meeting other peoples. I would spend a lot of time making myself into what others want me to be, with much energy spent on seduction and sexual intensity. I would respond to my intense emotional experience of 'falling in love' by pushing intimacy and commitment, because deep down, I am insecure and I need reassurance by way of speedy commitment that doesn't match the reality of how well I know someone. This creates a sense of certainty because the more I know the ‘rules,’ the better I can earn love and feel safe. By being beautiful, accomplished, and utterly devoted, I would get love in return.

The above is absolutely dysfunctional in every way. Not only was it dishonest (though not calculated - every time I would have told you I loved that man, he was my soul mate, the feelings were genuine, they were so blown up, I couldn't detach from them) but it was careless. I was neglecting my needs and using ‘serving others’ to meet them, which meant that I was resentful, unhappy and unable to communicate directly and fairly. Because I couldn't take any responsibility for the relationships I created, I lost my when they failed and either ended them suddenly or kept them going long after any sane person would have walked away.  In some cases, I tolerated physical danger and abuse; in others I broke people’s hearts.

It took a long time, but I was finally able to admit that I was on a rollercoaster of trying to blot out my fear by using other people. I'm not saying that I didn't love the men I had dated, just that I hadn't taken any time to take care of the relationship or be my own person. I was living my life on a BPD autopilot."

This describes my exBPDgf to a "t".
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 02:03:33 PM »

If I had a history of getting into relationships and within a few months I started to smack my partner around, it had happened 10 times or more and yet I just kept jumping from relationship to relationship with the "best intentions" (ie. burying my head in the sand, ignoring diagnosis from psychiatrists) just so as to not be alone and the obvious happened and I hit my 11th girlfriend and caused her immense pain because of my inaction on my emotional problems. What am I?

I guess that person would be lying to themselves and decieving their partner? Perhaps con-artist is just too emotive a word.

I guess I just don't have any sympathy for this disorder, especially when its been diagnosed and the BPD person just rejects that disagnosis and continues to hurt people.

I was exceptionally green, my family life as a child was very insuler and protected, had I had the correct outlook and emotional skin I would not have fallen for this and danced the dance. It just seems sad that its up to the hurt party to do all the work and the BPD gets to just carrying on smashing into people's lives causing emotional and financial disaster.

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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 02:15:13 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

four_kings said it best.

I imagine them as a child. A child that has a new toy (us) They play with it, love it, take it everywhere with them, get overly protective of it and will not share it with anyone.

After a while. Once they have played with it all they can and it's not the amazing new toy it once was. A new toy catches there eye in a shop window. They have to have it, it's all they can think about. So they do whatever they can to get it and the old toy gets put away in a box with all the other toys to play with at a future date.

Sure they may return to the old toy if the new one gets broken or they get bored with it, but it's only a matter of time before a new shiny one catches their eye and the cycle repeats.

As sad as it is, this is how I rationalize it. We all just toys in a life size toy box.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240641.0

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jhkbuzz
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 02:16:36 PM »

Just to turn this on it's head slightly and get people thinking. I ask the following question, mainly to those of you who have identified yourselves as co-dependent and rescuer type personalities.

Do you think you ever loved them, or were you just afraid of being alone?

The reason I ask, is that it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently and might help you to think about the original question and whether or not they did love you.

For many of us that fall into the above categories, our lives have been dedicated to the needs of others in order to seek approval or acceptance. Many of us were seeking love from parents or loved ones that were emotionally unavailable or incapable of showing us that unconditional love. That's why we spent our lives doing for others just so we could feel that "love". But was it really love? What does love feel like? When we got that attention or a glimpse of acceptance, it felt great, we felt so wonderful inside and to us that must have been what love feels like, because it made us feel good about ourselves.

Just like an addict, every time that feeling faded away, we did more and more to get that feeling back.

The difference between many of us and pwBPD, is that we are the ones who can be afraid of being alone, a pwBPD is afraid of being abandoned. It's how we fit together in this dysfunctional dance. We need them as much as they need us because we don't want to be alone and they don't want to be abandoned.

So given that thinking, if what we felt was perceived as love to us, would it not be right to say that what a pwBPD felt at the time was indeed love to them too?

I love this post.  5 months out of the r/s and I am increasingly looking at myself in the r/s instead of my exBPDgf... .it feels good.  Sometimes painful and difficult, but good.

When I met my ex I was deeply unhappy (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240301.msg12557678#msg12557678) and looking for a way out of the circumstances I was in.  If I really think back (8 years... .it takes some effort Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)!) I remember the beginning of the r/s... .being cautious... .wondering if she was too needy... .even trying to decide if I was attracted to her because she was overweight. I know I was eventually won over by her seductiveness and the fact that she was soo into me. Did I really fall in love her the way I told her I did? Maybe I needed to fall in love her at that point in my life to help me escape from my own pain.  Maybe she did the same.  That doesn't mean that either one of us were acting in a "premeditated" way.

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