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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Do you think they ever loved you, or were just afraid of being alone?  (Read 10182 times)
paperlung
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« on: January 16, 2015, 10:42:48 PM »

This sentence in one of 2010's old posts here (which I highly recommended reading) really pulled on my heartstrings.

Excerpt
Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168086.0
<br/>:)o you agree with this statement? Do you think your ex ever genuinely loved you? I know mine said that she did, but did she really? How can someone who doesn't even love themself, love somebody else? Or even know what love truly is if they never even experienced it as a a child from their parents?

My ex said to me whenever a family member would say, "I love you," she would say it back, but that it felt cold and hollow. As if it she didn't feel like she really meant it.

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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 11:14:36 PM »

Her longing for me seemed desperate, but was it real ? ! My thought about was that she lived in the moment, ... .when she saw me i was longet for, when i was away  or out of sight resulted in no contact. Yes confusing.
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neverloveagain
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 01:19:58 AM »

Someone who needed you a while. Theres no love just a 'need'.
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neverloveagain
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 01:22:21 AM »

They needed you a while.
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 03:06:56 AM »

I think mine did truly love me. Maybe in a child like way the way because emotionally they are stuck in the child like phase. But yes I think mine did, as much as he was capable. Maybe only for as long as I met his needs but while we were meeting his needs I think he did.

Maybe I want to think that too, but that's OK. We had something and I like to think it was love.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2015, 03:18:00 AM »

I don't know if it really is just about need. I don't want to defend BPD neither am I living in a bubble far from reality where I persuade myself my xBPDgf loved me. But I do really think they loved us. They obviously didn't love us in a mature way, they loved us more like children. But then again: there also are people without BPD who are not capable of love in the way we would do. I think BPD is a spectrum and people are different as people just are.

If you knew exactly that your BPD loved you truly, would it help you to detach properly or would it actually make you feel like maybe there'll be a time when they can love you again?

Of course, when we know we're loved we feel validated and maybe kind of soothed because the relationship was at least in some way real. But it is over now. And I sometimes think it's easier to say to yourself that you were in a relationship with someone who just wasn't able to have a relationship. These days I feel like mine is just a child in an adult's body and that really helps me.
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2015, 03:52:31 AM »

I don't think a BPD is in any way capable of love. They need, but love, no way. Love is about giving, not taking. Their idea of love is a Disney fairytale, you just meet your prince and everyone lives happily ever after, until they set fire to the relationship. Love takes time, it is built. A person truly in love believes in the other person and doesn't run away at the first hurdle. A person in love doesn't tell you they have never loved anyone like they love you and then two weeks later go 100% ST. My ex was hilarious, she said that she loved her mom more than anyone else loved their mom, she didn't love her mom, she just used her, they are entwined in a grotesque dance of neediness and addiction to each other, the mom needs to be needed and my ex still thinks of herself as the little 5 year old, that isn't love in any way.

Love is not when you need someone to "complete" you, it's when you want to be with someone because they enhance your life.

This sentence in one of 2010's old posts here (which I highly recommended reading) really pulled on my heartstrings.

Excerpt
Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168086.0

Do you agree with this statement? Do you think your ex ever genuinely loved you? I know mine said that she did, but did she really? How can someone who doesn't even love themself, love somebody else? Or even know what love truly is if they never even experienced it as a a child from their parents?

My ex said to me whenever a family member would say, "I love you," she would say it back, but that it felt cold and hollow. As if it she didn't feel like she really meant it.

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MrConfusedWithItAll
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2015, 04:00:28 AM »

I thought mine loved me - but in retrospect I was needed and not loved.  When she found a replacement I was no longer needed.  It was then a goodbye.
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Trog
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2015, 04:24:57 AM »

Just read 2010s post. It's my marriage word for word. I am the lonely child, she mirrored everything I wanted and so I believed she was my soulmate (as she told me she was), it was almost spiritual for me her mirroring but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met. The minute you have needs or step back, the ___ hits the fan.

It hurts to say it but these people with BPD don't love us like we understand love. We fulfill a need, a need that will eventually be unmet again and they have no choice but to find another attachment and their pain goes on forever.

If rather not have met my exbPDw but if I had to im glad I'm an Non, at least I stand a cat in hells chance of happiness
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 07:06:09 AM »

My uBPDxw once told me in one of her few moments of reality where she was fully exposing her inner turmoil. She said "I don't know what love is. I feel that I need to be sexually desired by men but I know that is not love".
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 08:23:52 AM »

They feel love but for a short period of time. They can't sustain it. That is because their brain is damaged. One day they can wake up and say- "hey I just don't love you anymore. I do not know why, but that is how I feel it" And they will not be lying. Here is a quote from a real Borderline.

Then one day, I won't love them anymore. It probably doesn't actually happen overnight, but it feels like it. I'll wake up and I just… don't want them in my life. And the fact they still love me will actually disgust me. I will be repulsed by the fact that they can't just “get over” me the way I'm already over them. And I'll hurt and I'll feel bad because I hurt them and I'll cry because I feel bad. But I won't really care, I'll walk away and it will be as though I never truly loved them and I won't know why. I'll say “he just wasn't right for me”? and I'll feel bad because I don't believe there's anyone out there who IS right for me and maybe that last one was the only chance I'll ever get to not die alone. And I'll tell myself I'm OK with dying alone because at least that way I can't hurt anyone else- including myself. But then I always crave love again…
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2015, 08:53:37 AM »

If she loved me, loves me, or just needed me doesn't really matter to me. I loved her and did everything I could to show her that. People make mistakes. But for her to leave me for two different guys and lie about it isn't a mistake. A one night stand is a mistake. A mistake that is hard to get past. But actually lining guys up behind my back and lying about it is a lot more than a mistake. Bpd or not that is a long calculated plan. She had plenty of time to see what she was doing. Bpd or not that just isn't someone I would want to be with. I think we should all look past the questions about our exes and start moving forward. I am guilty of the same thing. She called me two nights ago from an unknown number crying and crying. I told her to call her boyfriend. She said he said mean things to her. I told her I did everything I could for her and she left me for someone else. She said she was sorry for calling and hung up.

She clearly has no control over anything she does. Could you imagine ever calling someone for help that you treated so badly? These exes are extremely ill and will never be in stable relationships or live happy lives without seeking help. We are all here because we loved them. We loved too much. We hurt ourselves because of this.
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2015, 10:11:43 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.
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Trog
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2015, 10:23:23 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

That's interesting. Mirroring you and luring you into a certain position only to abuse you later, I think it's premeditated. Especially when they have done it over and over 10 times or more, been sectioned and refuse help despite the clear evidence they have an issue.

Personally I don't think people like that should be roaming the streets to pick off their next victim. And yes, I do understand my part in the dance, but not every person on the street is capable of what those with BPD are. They wreak havoc, as do con artists. I think they are con artists.
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2015, 10:26:04 AM »

I have no doubt my exgf did and didn't and did and didn't and did and didn't and will continue that. How she feels today or tomorrow or yesterday is nothing I have any control over.

Having been around the BPD block several times with this person it is easier for me not to take it as personally but still stings at times.
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Pou
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2015, 10:27:34 AM »

My analysis is that they loved you at first, like infatuation, and then when it wanes ... .PD traits start to dominate his or her emotion and then you become the prey / target for their disorder.  The transition is not gradual, it is pretty much black or white in their mind, but they do struggle with it to reconcile this change as well.  So you will notice lots of phrases that come out of her or his mouth from no where ... .seemingly justifying their changes.  Eventually, it becomes full blown and then there will be no return.  You are then officially the "target" for his or her disorder.  At that stage, you ought to be smart enough to plan an exit plan or damage control plan ... .PDs' brains are much like crocodiles, they react and driven by hardwired emotions and mostly are fear.  When you do loving things to them, their brain perceives it as fear.  My NPDw flips out and reject all what I try to do for her for valentine, anniversary,  birthday and other occasions.  Normal people receive and appreciate.  She receive and then react out in rage or some strange provocations ensue ... .so for first time in 16 years that we have been together, I have stopped celebrating couple's holidays.  The extra grief for supposelly happy occasions are just not worth it.  So if you are dating someone with PD, take my words into consideration.  It is very odd and like a bizarro world that they live in... .but that is what happens that we get to live in one too once you partner up with one.  Good luck.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2015, 10:27:45 AM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

When my not-so-healthy self gave my adult love to an adult with a child's mind ... .it was very gratifying for me to be her rescuer.  I never thought about the back end.  

My child got angry at me (and hid her rage), and got even with me (by cheating on me while childishly playing victim to new supply) and then ran off and punished me by abandonment.  She still tries to punish me and triangulate me. I just don't play that game any longer. Nothing has changed for her... .and since she is very attractive, she can get away with it as long as she desires. Our society even backs up her behavior. Listen to a song or watch a movie... .all the reinforcement is there everywhere you look or hear.

So... .did she ever love me.  Yes.  The best that she could.  
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2015, 10:32:16 AM »

I think the point of 2010's post was about detaching with love, with compassion.  Seeing things as they are, not as we may want them to be.

They loved you in the only way they knew how.  Forgive them, if you can.
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mywifecrazy
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2015, 10:51:54 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

I disagree with this 100% at least in my experience which is the only thing any of us can speak of. My uBPDxw's actions revealed a deep level of premeditation, purposeful deceit and planning. Disordered or not I don't think it's realistic or healthy for us think they acted like hypnotized zombies and couldn't control their actions. If we do we are ripe for being abused again. No disrespect meant just the way I see it. That being said I do feel sorry for my uBPDxw as she too is a victim of her actions but she does have the power to change her course in life.

MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2015, 10:55:37 AM »

Good question. In the first year or so, I felt intensely loved. Like, to the brink of obsession. At first I felt unconfortable with it, but after a while you get used to her wanting to spend every minute of the day with you and constantly texting you. You get so used to it, that when it dies off in the years after, it feels very strange.

With my ex is was, as soon as she noticed I was really in her pocket, that the roles were reversed and I needed her, i was obsessed with her, the intense loving stopped, save a few moments when she would get her way or get presents.
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 11:03:48 AM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

That's interesting. Mirroring you and luring you into a certain position only to abuse you later, I think it's premeditated. Especially when they have done it over and over 10 times or more, been sectioned and refuse help despite the clear evidence they have an issue.

Personally I don't think people like that should be roaming the streets to pick off their next victim. And yes, I do understand my part in the dance, but not every person on the street is capable of what those with BPD are. They wreak havoc, as do con artists. I think they are con artists.

I am fairly well convinced that mine planned the b/u and disappearing act well in advance... .she was living with me and needed to line up people to help her move, change her address, etc. (I even recall her going to the post office for some, at the time, odd reason)... .all the while acting as if all was perfectly normal - I would give her an Oscar for her performance! This is part of our dynamic; we WERE conned!
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 11:21:53 AM »

I struggle with this as well... .I remember that it was REALLY intense at first - like I had butterflies in my stomach that I never had before... .it was a great feeling I have to admit... .it reinforced the idea that she was THE ONE, I truly believed that this was the culmination and final stop in my dating life... .that feeling ended permanently after what would be the first of several recycles... .

There were many things that happened during our relationship (and certainly after) that made me doubt that she actually loved me... .I was reminder by someone who posted above about real love to include giving and wonder if anyone else had experienced this:

On those occasions like birthdays, Christmas or anniversaries where gift giving was part of the expectation, I saw something in her that I never saw with anyone that had given me a gift in the past. When someone gives a gift, they usually romance the gift with a mixture of expectation and slight concern about whether the recipient would like it, or that it would fit, be the right color or otherwise be a token of appreciation. However, my BPDex by virtue of her body language and such, would sit down and watch with a... .sort of... .'can we get this over with and move on to the next thing?' air that was pretty clear. There was none of that normal anxiety related to the gift making the recipient happy.

I always thought that this was odd but it seems to me, after the fact, that this was consistent with someone who was not giving of their heart. It was something that they HAD to do and could really care less about making the recipient/person they claimed to love happy in expressing their feelings for them through gift giving.

Anyone else have this experience?
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JRT
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 11:24:20 AM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?
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Ripped Heart
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 11:34:29 AM »

Just to turn this on it's head slightly and get people thinking. I ask the following question, mainly to those of you who have identified yourselves as co-dependent and rescuer type personalities.

Do you think you ever loved them, or were you just afraid of being alone?

The reason I ask, is that it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently and might help you to think about the original question and whether or not they did love you.

For many of us that fall into the above categories, our lives have been dedicated to the needs of others in order to seek approval or acceptance. Many of us were seeking love from parents or loved ones that were emotionally unavailable or incapable of showing us that unconditional love. That's why we spent our lives doing for others just so we could feel that "love". But was it really love? What does love feel like? When we got that attention or a glimpse of acceptance, it felt great, we felt so wonderful inside and to us that must have been what love feels like, because it made us feel good about ourselves.

Just like an addict, every time that feeling faded away, we did more and more to get that feeling back.

The difference between many of us and pwBPD, is that we are the ones who can be afraid of being alone, a pwBPD is afraid of being abandoned. It's how we fit together in this dysfunctional dance. We need them as much as they need us because we don't want to be alone and they don't want to be abandoned.

So given that thinking, if what we felt was perceived as love to us, would it not be right to say that what a pwBPD felt at the time was indeed love to them too?


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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 11:50:02 AM »

I think that for me there was probably a combination of factors part of it was a 'rescuer' mentality, but that probably served to reinforce the love that I had already felt for her. Sparing the details, she had genuine qualities that I had adored and found hard to come by in other women.
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paperlung
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2015, 12:05:02 PM »

They feel love but for a short period of time. They can't sustain it. That is because their brain is damaged. One day they can wake up and say- "hey I just don't love you anymore. I do not know why, but that is how I feel it" And they will not be lying. Here is a quote from a real Borderline.

Then one day, I won't love them anymore. It probably doesn't actually happen overnight, but it feels like it. I'll wake up and I just… don't want them in my life. And the fact they still love me will actually disgust me. I will be repulsed by the fact that they can't just “get over” me the way I'm already over them. And I'll hurt and I'll feel bad because I hurt them and I'll cry because I feel bad. But I won't really care, I'll walk away and it will be as though I never truly loved them and I won't know why. I'll say “he just wasn't right for me”? and I'll feel bad because I don't believe there's anyone out there who IS right for me and maybe that last one was the only chance I'll ever get to not die alone. And I'll tell myself I'm OK with dying alone because at least that way I can't hurt anyone else- including myself. But then I always crave love again…

They can't sustain it... .I witnessed that on a couple of occasions early on (after the honeymoon had passed). She texted or called me (I can't remember) and told me she didn't love me anymore and that the spark was gone. This came pretty much out of left filed because I thought things between us were fine; there was no turmoil whatsoever, we got along great and never argued. I was totally flabbergasted with her decision and very upset. I remember calling her up, asking why; she seemed so cold and detached from me.

The next day she apologized to me and said she made a mistake, "You know what I get like when I'm feeling depressed." We were back together again in less than 24 hours.

Something very similar happened again a couple of months later and the end result was the same. Randomly decides to end the relationship, says she doesn't love me/no spark anymore, but the next day she apologizes using pretty much the same excuses.

I was a very good boyfriend to her. Almost certain the best she's ever had. Those mini-breakups never made sense to me. She always felt she could not relate to me because my life was much different than her's (I had a job, I went to school, I had friends, and a very loving family to go home to). She had none of that.
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 01:52:22 PM »

... .but actually it's all just a giant con trick to get their needs met.

A "con" suggests premeditation.  Unless your partner is narcissistic or sociopathic, there's usually not that level of premeditation with BPD.

That's interesting. Mirroring you and luring you into a certain position only to abuse you later, I think it's premeditated. Especially when they have done it over and over 10 times or more, been sectioned and refuse help despite the clear evidence they have an issue.

Personally I don't think people like that should be roaming the streets to pick off their next victim. And yes, I do understand my part in the dance, but not every person on the street is capable of what those with BPD are. They wreak havoc, as do con artists. I think they are con artists.

I understand your viewpoint, but this suggests that the entire relationship, from the very beginning, was a premeditated con without any love or genuine feelings from your BPD partner.  I can say that that wasn't the case in my r/s; although I (obviously) can't speak to anyone else's experience.

Remember: according to the theories of BPD, it is a disorder of arrested emotional development.  Think of a young child: how they are happy one minute and can be screaming and crying a few minutes later.  BPD is a disorder of emotional dysregulation... .so it's not so much that they have "pre-planned" the demise of your r/s, it's more that when they engage in an adult r/s they are unable to deal with the sometimes intense emotional episodes that living in close proximity with another human being "brings up."

This doesn't absolve them of the responsibility to seek help, btw. I'm just speaking to the idea that the entire r/s - from the mirroring to the seduction to the abandonment is "premeditated."

I copied this off the internet - I don't remember where - but it is written by someone with BPD:

"I have borderline personality disorder - but it's not as much a negative influence in my life as it once was. I have learned coping skills and changed my lifestyle to reduce stress, but it does still factor in my relationships.

I can only speak for me, but part of the philosophy ingrained in me by trauma has been that there is a 'right' way to do things. That 'right' way means that everyone around me will be happy and love me (because I will have behaved and got it 'right', mostly by mind reading what others want and people pleasing).  In this philosophy, I am unworthy, so I ignore and bury my needs and get them met by meeting other peoples. I would spend a lot of time making myself into what others want me to be, with much energy spent on seduction and sexual intensity. I would respond to my intense emotional experience of 'falling in love' by pushing intimacy and commitment, because deep down, I am insecure and I need reassurance by way of speedy commitment that doesn't match the reality of how well I know someone. This creates a sense of certainty because the more I know the ‘rules,’ the better I can earn love and feel safe. By being beautiful, accomplished, and utterly devoted, I would get love in return.

The above is absolutely dysfunctional in every way. Not only was it dishonest (though not calculated - every time I would have told you I loved that man, he was my soul mate, the feelings were genuine, they were so blown up, I couldn't detach from them) but it was careless. I was neglecting my needs and using ‘serving others’ to meet them, which meant that I was resentful, unhappy and unable to communicate directly and fairly. Because I couldn't take any responsibility for the relationships I created, I lost my when they failed and either ended them suddenly or kept them going long after any sane person would have walked away.  In some cases, I tolerated physical danger and abuse; in others I broke people’s hearts.

It took a long time, but I was finally able to admit that I was on a rollercoaster of trying to blot out my fear by using other people. I'm not saying that I didn't love the men I had dated, just that I hadn't taken any time to take care of the relationship or be my own person. I was living my life on a BPD autopilot."

This describes my exBPDgf to a "t".
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 02:03:33 PM »

If I had a history of getting into relationships and within a few months I started to smack my partner around, it had happened 10 times or more and yet I just kept jumping from relationship to relationship with the "best intentions" (ie. burying my head in the sand, ignoring diagnosis from psychiatrists) just so as to not be alone and the obvious happened and I hit my 11th girlfriend and caused her immense pain because of my inaction on my emotional problems. What am I?

I guess that person would be lying to themselves and decieving their partner? Perhaps con-artist is just too emotive a word.

I guess I just don't have any sympathy for this disorder, especially when its been diagnosed and the BPD person just rejects that disagnosis and continues to hurt people.

I was exceptionally green, my family life as a child was very insuler and protected, had I had the correct outlook and emotional skin I would not have fallen for this and danced the dance. It just seems sad that its up to the hurt party to do all the work and the BPD gets to just carrying on smashing into people's lives causing emotional and financial disaster.

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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 02:15:13 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

four_kings said it best.

I imagine them as a child. A child that has a new toy (us) They play with it, love it, take it everywhere with them, get overly protective of it and will not share it with anyone.

After a while. Once they have played with it all they can and it's not the amazing new toy it once was. A new toy catches there eye in a shop window. They have to have it, it's all they can think about. So they do whatever they can to get it and the old toy gets put away in a box with all the other toys to play with at a future date.

Sure they may return to the old toy if the new one gets broken or they get bored with it, but it's only a matter of time before a new shiny one catches their eye and the cycle repeats.

As sad as it is, this is how I rationalize it. We all just toys in a life size toy box.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240641.0

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« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 02:16:36 PM »

Just to turn this on it's head slightly and get people thinking. I ask the following question, mainly to those of you who have identified yourselves as co-dependent and rescuer type personalities.

Do you think you ever loved them, or were you just afraid of being alone?

The reason I ask, is that it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently and might help you to think about the original question and whether or not they did love you.

For many of us that fall into the above categories, our lives have been dedicated to the needs of others in order to seek approval or acceptance. Many of us were seeking love from parents or loved ones that were emotionally unavailable or incapable of showing us that unconditional love. That's why we spent our lives doing for others just so we could feel that "love". But was it really love? What does love feel like? When we got that attention or a glimpse of acceptance, it felt great, we felt so wonderful inside and to us that must have been what love feels like, because it made us feel good about ourselves.

Just like an addict, every time that feeling faded away, we did more and more to get that feeling back.

The difference between many of us and pwBPD, is that we are the ones who can be afraid of being alone, a pwBPD is afraid of being abandoned. It's how we fit together in this dysfunctional dance. We need them as much as they need us because we don't want to be alone and they don't want to be abandoned.

So given that thinking, if what we felt was perceived as love to us, would it not be right to say that what a pwBPD felt at the time was indeed love to them too?

I love this post.  5 months out of the r/s and I am increasingly looking at myself in the r/s instead of my exBPDgf... .it feels good.  Sometimes painful and difficult, but good.

When I met my ex I was deeply unhappy (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240301.msg12557678#msg12557678) and looking for a way out of the circumstances I was in.  If I really think back (8 years... .it takes some effort Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)!) I remember the beginning of the r/s... .being cautious... .wondering if she was too needy... .even trying to decide if I was attracted to her because she was overweight. I know I was eventually won over by her seductiveness and the fact that she was soo into me. Did I really fall in love her the way I told her I did? Maybe I needed to fall in love her at that point in my life to help me escape from my own pain.  Maybe she did the same.  That doesn't mean that either one of us were acting in a "premeditated" way.

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« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2015, 02:19:13 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

BPD is a disorder of emotional arrested development.
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« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2015, 03:16:28 PM »

The closest I can ever get to the "truth" is to take the things my exgf said during her rational moments.  Stitching together the things she said over many disparate moments, this is what I accept as real:

1) She really did love me.  During moments of clarity she said to me, "Right now I can see who you truly are without all of my doubts and fears blurring it and when I ask myself if I actually love you for you and not just the idea of someone to cling to, I know in my heart that I do love you and I honestly say to myself, 'I really do love this man!  I think he's great!'"

2) She intuitively knew that she could never get too comfortable in our relationship because she felt it was a matter of time before she would do something to screw it all up.  She explained it as if she feared one day she would wake up to realize that our relationship was over, as if somebody else took over her body and smashed her life and everything she loved to bits, and then she would "wake up" or "come back" to see that the person she loved and wanted to spend her life with was gone for good and never wanted to talk to her again - and it was all her fault.

3) She was aware that there was something different about her own mind.  She knew she was a lot more emotional and sensitive than most people.  She said things like "I'm just f-ed in the head!" and "I am really worried that I genetically acquired some of the traits of paranoia that seemed to exist along my mom's lineage.  There were really bad things that happened in their lives that would explain that paranoia but sometimes I get scared that it's genetic and that I have it too because sometimes I get fears that are completely irrational but I still can't overcome them.  And I know what my dad went through with my mom and I don't want to be a burden to you in the same way."


I'm sure there are others.  I'll have to make a list sometime to try to keep things in perspective. 

The point I'm making is that the closest I can ever get to "reality" are from the statements made in those fleeting lucid states where she wasn't creating chaos or when she wasn't regressed into a child-like state.  It was those moments when I was interacting with a rational person who was self-reflecting that gives me the most clarity.  And it's also so incredibly sad that I couldn't have that mature and aware "form" of her around consistently - because THAT'S the person I fell deeply in love with.  And I would give my left kidney, lung, and testicle to be able to have and love that form of her in a healthy relationship for the rest of my life.
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« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2015, 04:06:56 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

I agree with paperlung's reference up above on the page... . 

I believe in my ex's damage occurred when her father ran off when she was 5 years old.  He was such an ass... he even took the family dog.  Anyone can say what they will (I had no knowledge of BPD until well after the relationship), but I believe that my ex was soo emotionally damaged by the abandonment from her father... plus... .her Mom is a REALLY great lady... .but the abandonment damaged her incredibly as well.   Imagine being a sensitive five year old (only child)... .Dad and the dog are gone and Mom is completely devastated and in deep deep grief and mourning.  I get it now... .my ex was destroyed as a child.  In many ways I think that her development was arrested emotionally.  She is very childlike, and self-centered.  Think of the damage and the unprocessed anger and resentment toward men about that abandonment.

Funny... .she could love pets like no one I ever saw... .like a child.  When it came to loving adult men ... .initially that is exciting... but it eventually falls short for both people. It cannot be sustained... .and if there is not mature, deep love and nurturing after the glow period on both people's part... .there just isn't much there... .

"you didn't hold my hand the right way!" ... .is kind of hard to field with an adult child... .and they think that that is a reason to go shopping for another man.  Childish.
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« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2015, 04:16:37 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

I agree with paperlung's reference up above on the page... .

 

Apparently not my ex. That analogy did not sit very well with her, as you know.
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« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2015, 06:22:59 PM »

I was thinking about this some more.   My ex was extremely damaged as a child.  She is very familiar with that deep, deep pain of abandonment. She went on and on when I first met her about this "boyfriend" who took her on a cruise and then spent the entire cruise with another woman and how terribly painful it was... .now... .as far as I can see it was just to get my sympathy and to have me come to her "emotional rescue". Yet her favorite move is "cut and run".   She abandons everyone who truly loves her... .and then goes out of her way to emotionally destroy the person that she abandons.  She did it to me with her new supply over and over again in public places. HUH?

I was once on the beach with her.  I mentioned that an ex of mine was sitting nearby (who I had empathy for and who I was respectful of). My girl decided to jump in my lap and squirm around... .?  I asked her to stop immediately and to consider the other person's  feelings.  Little did I know that it would soon be me on the other end of her childish behavior.

Only an extremely mentally ill person would do that in my book.   I know everyone has an opinion, though.
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« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2015, 06:26:57 PM »

That IS childish!
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« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2015, 08:29:44 PM »

I can say with 100% certainty that she did love me ... .until she could not do it !(after she got dysregulated)   She did lot of things to make me happy... .make me laugh... supported me emotionally when I needed and enjoyed time together. Sometimes, she did try to give advice as best as she could.

I believe that they do love you when they have you in their "white mode" but once painted black... they just CAN NOT love you and you really get hurt. Mine did  not want to hurt me on purpose as I saw how helpless she was once controlled by the disorder ... she became totally what she was not. I believe it was not she... .it was the disorder which caused me so much pain.

Its so easy to forgive her now that I understand the real reason for her evil behavior at the end of R/S. IT'S THE DISORDER, STUPID !
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« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2015, 01:13:33 AM »

I love this post.  5 months out of the r/s and I am increasingly looking at myself in the r/s instead of my exBPDgf... .it feels good.  Sometimes painful and difficult, but good.

When I met my ex I was deeply unhappy (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240301.msg12557678#msg12557678) and looking for a way out of the circumstances I was in.  If I really think back (8 years... .it takes some effort Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)!) I remember the beginning of the r/s... .being cautious... .wondering if she was too needy... .even trying to decide if I was attracted to her because she was overweight. I know I was eventually won over by her seductiveness and the fact that she was soo into me. Did I really fall in love her the way I told her I did? Maybe I needed to fall in love her at that point in my life to help me escape from my own pain.  Maybe she did the same.  That doesn't mean that either one of us were acting in a "premeditated" way

My brain works in a very different way to others and as such, I often think outside the box. For example, you ask anyone what the colour red is and most people can describe it to you. Its the colour of passion, the colour on a stop light, the colour of danger and we all point to something and say its red. But how do you know we are all seeing exactly the same thing? What I perceive as red might be what you see as green but we are all taught that this is the colour red so its the same for all of us. We trust in what we see just as we do in what we feel. But it isn't always the same and someone with colour blindness is proof of that.

My BPDgf told me she adored me on our first date, within a couple of weeks she told me she loved me but it didn't stop there. I told her I loved her too. I felt what I perceived as love from what I had been taught love was so it had to be true. It might not be what someone else's definition of love is but its what I knew it to be. So if that was the case for me, it must have been the same for her so yes, there was definitely love from both sides but a very different feeling for both given what we both knew love to be.

Now if you remove the romanticised ideal of love, it is in fact a chemical reaction within our own brains so again, regardless of how quick it was professed, it had to have been there. I know when I said it, initially I had a moment of reservation but I think hearing those words from her and waiting my life for acceptance is what caused my chemical reaction.



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« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2015, 01:22:42 AM »

I love this post.  5 months out of the r/s and I am increasingly looking at myself in the r/s instead of my exBPDgf... .it feels good.  Sometimes painful and difficult, but good.

When I met my ex I was deeply unhappy (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=240301.msg12557678#msg12557678) and looking for a way out of the circumstances I was in.  If I really think back (8 years... .it takes some effort Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)!) I remember the beginning of the r/s... .being cautious... .wondering if she was too needy... .even trying to decide if I was attracted to her because she was overweight. I know I was eventually won over by her seductiveness and the fact that she was soo into me. Did I really fall in love her the way I told her I did? Maybe I needed to fall in love her at that point in my life to help me escape from my own pain.  Maybe she did the same.  That doesn't mean that either one of us were acting in a "premeditated" way

My brain works in a very different way to others and as such, I often think outside the box. For example, you ask anyone what the colour red is and most people can describe it to you. Its the colour of passion, the colour on a stop light, the colour of danger and we all point to something and say its red. But how do you know we are all seeing exactly the same thing? What I perceive as red might be what you see as green but we are all taught that this is the colour red so its the same for all of us. We trust in what we see just as we do in what we feel. But it isn't always the same and someone with colour blindness is proof of that.

My BPDgf told me she adored me on our first date, within a couple of weeks she told me she loved me but it didn't stop there. I told her I loved her too. I felt what I perceived as love from what I had been taught love was so it had to be true. It might not be what someone else's definition of love is but its what I knew it to be. So if that was the case for me, it must have been the same for her so yes, there was definitely love from both sides but a very different feeling for both given what we both knew love to be.

Now if you remove the romanticised ideal of love, it is in fact a chemical reaction within our own brains so again, regardless of how quick it was professed, it had to have been there. I know when I said it, initially I had a moment of reservation but I think hearing those words from her and waiting my life for acceptance is what caused my chemical reaction.

Heh. My ex told me she adored me too on our first date. As we were walking back to my car, she held onto my arm and said, "I really like you." She also told me she loved me within the first two weeks as well. I clearly remember her saying it to me sometimes when we were in her bed together. I didn't know how to respond. I wasn't sure how I truly felt about her yet. I mean, I liked her. But loved? Looking back, the first time I said, "I love you too" wasn't real. I was just tired of going silent on her and being awkward about it. I fell in love with her over time, though. I don't know exactly when I did, but I did.

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« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2015, 11:20:28 AM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

When my not-so-healthy self gave my adult love to an adult with a child's mind ... .it was very gratifying for me to be her rescuer.  I never thought about the back end.  My child got angry at me (and hid her rage), and got even with me (by cheating on me while childishly playing victim to new supply) and then ran off and punished me by abandonment.  She still tries to punish me and triangulate me. I just don't play that game any longer. Nothing has changed for her... .and since she is very attractive, she can get away with it as long as she desires. Our society even backs up her behavior. Listen to a song or watch a movie... .all the reinforcement is there everywhere you look or hear.

So... .did she ever love me.  Yes.  The best that she could.  

Wow... .that completely summarizes my relationship.  Including my responsibility, which I'm working on right now.  Amazing how often our stories overlap on this discussion board... .
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« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2015, 11:51:24 AM »

Nope. I was a emotional tampon. Oh it seemed like love. It wasnt. I was useful while she rebuilt herself. When I couldnt handle the demands and neediness... .poof, Im gone, following week, another guy.
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« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2015, 12:03:38 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

when you are very young, toddler age, you don't 'love' your parents in the way you use the term now.

at age 4, you don't know your parents as people, and have no scope or understanding of their personality or character... .you can't, you've barely been on the planet for a few years, and you have no frame of reference for an idea like 'love'

'love' at that age is merely an acknowledgement of satisfaction b/c needs are being met:  mommy and daddy make me food when I'm hungry, take care of me when I'm sick, give me kiss before tucking me in at night, etc etc

couple this with the fact that mom and dad say they 'love' me, so you parrot it back to them as an acknowledgement... .it's almost like a fancy 'thank you' at that age

our exes understand love in the same way: needs are being met.

our needs and wants were discarded, our interests belittled, so there was really no way for our exes to be able to 'love' us for who we are (i.e. personality, character, etc)

we made them feel 'wanted' for a little while... .they built a façade to facilitate that, and once we wanted to peel back a layer and add some depth to the relationship, they begin to run away... .they don't have the capacity for reciprocity, and their 'needs' surge to the forefront, and we are let go for the next mommy and daddy to tell them they're ok... .

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« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2015, 01:14:40 PM »

Thank you for that explanation... .it SO saddens me... .what a morass of hopeless loneliness they live in... .it must be worse than the worst prison for them... .
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« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2015, 01:35:50 PM »

I remember about 6-8 months into the relationship, one time I was passing my ex in the bathroom and and I said, "I love you". She replied, "I love you too". In a joking tone I said, "are you sure?". She was real standoffish and I was having gut feelings about how she felt about me. Her reply was, "With my son's father we always told each other "I love you", but they were just words. They didn't mean anything. They mean something with you though, I do love you."

I guess that tells the story. She tells whoever she's with at the time, that she loves them. She told me she loved me, when she was in a decent mood she acted like she loved me. Now she doesn't acknowledge my existence as a living breathing human being. At one point in the past she may have thought that she loved me. She obviously doesn't love me as I type this reply. In my world, you either love someone or you don't. You don't just stop loving and caring about someone on a whim.

Do you think they ever loved you, or were just afraid of being alone? Words vs actions is the best answer that I can give. However, I have a question.

Does it even matter at this point?
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« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2015, 02:03:13 PM »

Mine used to ask me, how much I love her. And before I could even answer, she said "My love for you is bigger than the universe." No matter what I answered, her love was even bigger. I always thought it was childlike flirtation, but now I think, that was really her. She had a lot of childish manners.
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« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2015, 02:08:22 PM »

I remember about 6-8 months into the relationship, one time I was passing my ex in the bathroom and and I said, "I love you". She replied, "I love you too". In a joking tone I said, "are you sure?". She was real standoffish and I was having gut feelings about how she felt about me. Her reply was, "With my son's father we always told each other "I love you", but they were just words. They didn't mean anything. They mean something with you though, I do love you."

I guess that tells the story. She tells whoever she's with at the time, that she loves them. She told me she loved me, when she was in a decent mood she acted like she loved me. Now she doesn't acknowledge my existence as a living breathing human being. At one point in the past she may have thought that she loved me. She obviously doesn't love me as I type this reply. In my world, you either love someone or you don't. You don't just stop loving and caring about someone on a whim.

Do you think they ever loved you, or were just afraid of being alone? Words vs actions is the best answer that I can give. However, I have a question.

Does it even matter at this point?

I recall during my marriage: of course I loved her when we first married, but my feelings changed over time and we ultimately divorced. Interestingly, we both felt the same way but continued saying 'I love you' to one another. But it was nothing more than a force of habit, not unlike saying, 'Hi, how are you'?
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« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2015, 02:20:00 PM »

Even at the start of my relationship with my uBPDxw she would tell me she loved me but always with a slight open ended tone. "I love you"? Her I love you's were just her way of trying to elicit a response of "I love you" from me... .It would drive me nuts. I would finally call her on it by saying. Are you really expressing your love for me or are you just trying to force me to say it? I would ask her that wouldn't she appreciate a heartfelt "I love you" from me than one that was forced? God I hated that, it was so CHILDISH!

That being said I was very free with saying I love you as I'm not afraid to show my emotions. I guess she needed to hear it every 60 seconds for re-assurance... .Very Sad it must be to have their constant need for that re-assurance!

MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2015, 02:32:36 PM »

Mine used to ask me, how much I love her. And before I could even answer, she said "My love for you is bigger than the universe." No matter what I answered, her love was even bigger. I always thought it was childlike flirtation, but now I think, that was really her. She had a lot of childish manners.

I was always suspicious of people that put a meter on how much you love someone. My ex used to tell me how much she loved her kids. I would say that I loved them too. She would then proceed to tell me how much more she loved them, like it was some sort of competition. I think that you either love someone or you don't.

On an off note, my ex's 17yo son moved out again and she's tagging him on FB memes everyday about how much she loves him. What is that all about? Is she doing to her son what some pwBPD do to their exSO. I noticed that she kind of lives vicariously through her kids(whatever that means). It's almost like her whole identity is her children. But it's fake. Almost like codependency, she does it to make herself feel better. Not actually for the kids sake. I have noticed plenty of females like this.
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« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2015, 02:37:29 PM »

Even at the start of my relationship with my uBPDxw she would tell me she loved me but always with a slight open ended tone. "I love you"? Her I love you's were just her way of trying to elicit a response of "I love you" from me... .It would drive me nuts. I would finally call her on it by saying. Are you really expressing your love for me or are you just trying to force me to say it? I would ask her that wouldn't she appreciate a heartfelt "I love you" from me than one that was forced? God I hated that, it was so CHILDISH!

That being said I was very free with saying I love you as I'm not afraid to show my emotions. I guess she needed to hear it every 60 seconds for re-assurance... .Very Sad it must be to have their constant need for that re-assurance!

MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)

my BPD ex used to actually have visible anxiety attacks when ending a phone call when the inevitable 'I love you' would need to be said. She would rush her words, often stammer and blurt it out almost as one word!
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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2015, 02:39:23 PM »

uBPDexgf gave me a book of matches from someplace we had travelled 10 months after we had met and 4 months after we had gotten together that said "STILL love you." (caps my emphasis). But I do think over time she did love me and deeply. We were together 9.5 years so it wasn't smoke and mirrors all that time. But i do believe she had cycles where she herself questioned if she loved me. You'd think after that much time and shared experiences that were at least 75% good that she would want to continue instead of taking a chance on somebody new. I, however, am known to be wrong occasionally... .
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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2015, 02:46:08 PM »

Ok, 7 weeks out of it, slowly seeing clearly again, I do think she loved me... .in her own way. Especially in the first years. She was almost obsessed by me, after that I became obsessed with her and I had to move mountains to keep her with me. But in those early days, she looked up to me, like a child looks up to an adult. Which makes sense, as she was 18 and I was 26 when we met (18 is a legal age here in the Netherlands, by the way).

She was still studying and living with her parents, I was working and had my own appartment. I was very social, everyone in town knew me and I was busy talking to everyone when going out. She was a bit quiet and shy. She must have looked up to all these things, and wanted to be the same, sort of.

In the end, she 'stole' all these things from me. Now she's the social one, making friends everywhere, while I've lost my identity in the process of pleasing her for 4,5 years. I'm slowly building myself up again, but it is what it is.

I guess she was in love with the idea of me, the things I could offer, the personality she could steal. She broke me down and got rid of all traits that I saw as positive, and when there was nothing left of me, she started moving on right under my nose, but I was too blind to see.

So yeah, that isn't love. But it's the way they love, I guess.

Oh, and yes, there's def. something about the fear of being alone in there. She dumped her previous boyfriend for me, before that she had another boyfriend. Right now, she has a boyfriend again. Since I've known her I haven't seen her single for more than 6 weeks (the time between our break up and last week). Even during the times when we would split previously she had another guy lined up, which she soon dumped to get back to me. Man, the joke's on me. The world must've thought I was stupid to take her back again and again.
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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2015, 02:51:42 PM »

I Believed that love existed between my ex and I . I still don't get the need part. It's going on a month since her grand finale exit. The reason I don't get it maybe because I was not going along with her crazy about a year before this ending. I would try to just keep us status quo and tell her to be nice. Of course it wouldn't work and I see my own denial .

Did she want to love I'm sure she did? She also wanted me to not be strong because she was always trying to break my spirit. Verbal and emotional abuse. I thought it was rejection and I suffered more.

Is this love? I don't know I believe she tried but the fact is I'm in the fog of trying to figure all this out? I believe I was a good partner, friend , and parent. I never understood her constant conflict . She'd tell me things like I was controlling , I was smothering , and I was manipulative I wasn't it was so confusing ? I have been told this is projection and gas lighting ? It's all a insane life w a BPD. In a way it was ok I dealt w it cause she played normal good too
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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2015, 03:06:41 PM »

I don't think E ever loved me. I think I was a person to keep her busy from being by herself and lonely. I met her right before the summer. I remember during her first conversations saying that she needed to keep herself busy from being alone.

Someone even went out of their way to get her a summer job doing some work with kids. It's funny now when I look back and reflect that as soon as she started to become attached to me that she dropped that job without any hesitation. Not really caring that the person went out of the way to get it for her.

It really is always about the BPDs need to feel good and not to be alone.

New relationships are so exciting for BPDs because the new person is a clean host who can be there and listen to all of their issues. I remember driving out to Colorado and her telling me about all the issues in her life and her past.

I think I filled a role for her. I don't think she ever loved me or wanted to be with me long term. She never committed to me. She fed me lines and kept me optimistic that she would open up, become intimate, and things would be the way I imagined them.

That's the hook. In the beginning, E was what I wanted. I remember skyping with her and how free and sexual she was. She'd talk about all the things we would do and places we'd go. It was like a drug.

But I played a role. She didn't want to be alone for the summer. She wanted someone to keep her company. I practically lived with her. She encouraged me to look for jobs in Colorado but she didnt want me to live with her. It's funny because once school started she started to change. She would start the yo-yoing and I would play the dutiful councilor.

It was also funny now to think about it about the sexual aspect. We had sex "THREE" times and the only times we did it was because she was afraid that I was going to leave her. It's funny, once school started up nothing ever happened again. Not even on her birthday.

She also never was alone. She would always go to her mothers, fathers, aunts, when I was not there. She could not be alone. Even during our last conversation she mentioned that. That is why I suspect she is with someone already or back online looking for a new guy.

Did E ever love me? No. I don't believe she did. She said to me on occasions but to love someone you need to be willing to put your needs to the side for that person's hapiness. Did I love E? Yes! I truly did. That is what is so damaging about these relationships.

I fell in lust with an image of a beautiful woman. I filled in the blanks, and ultimately fell in love with her after I gave her so much.

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« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2015, 11:08:27 AM »

This is a question that I find myself asking myself often. Throughout our three-year relationship I was constantly accused of not been able to share enough intimacy and empathy towards her in our relationship. I was painted black for about a year and then she finally terminated the relationship abruptly. Within a week she had one short-term rebound and now she's been dating another guy for a couple months where she had emailed me recently and let me know how she found peace and is really happy now with her new love.  Also in that email she wrote " there's something I need to tell you that will probably hurt you but I need to tell you so you know I'm to blame too. I truely never loved my ex- husband (of 8 years) and I never loved you.  I needed love, I let you"love" me, but I never loved you. I'm sorry but you need to know that." 

       I finally thought, well least i got somewhat of closer and honestly as ruthless as it sounded.  But then she called me the next day to say she re-read the email, and thst wasn't exactly what she meant. She then explained she just didn't love me the way she should have.  Which was followed up with she was so happy now and hopes i am too. To be honest, I couldn't wait to get off the phone. Part of me was afraid to say something that would set her off and the other part of me just didn't want to hear her voice anymore.   

      To sum it up, I think they want love, need love, they just don't know how to accept love
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« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2015, 12:21:41 PM »

This is a question that I find myself asking myself often. Throughout our three-year relationship I was constantly accused of not been able to share enough intimacy and empathy towards her in our relationship. I was painted black for about a year and then she finally terminated the relationship abruptly. Within a week she had one short-term rebound and now she's been dating another guy for a couple months where she had emailed me recently and let me know how she found peace and is really happy now with her new love.  Also in that email she wrote " there's something I need to tell you that will probably hurt you but I need to tell you so you know I'm to blame too. I truely never loved my ex- husband (of 8 years) and I never loved you.  I needed love, I let you"love" me, but I never loved you. I'm sorry but you need to know that."  

      I finally thought, well least i got somewhat of closer and honestly as ruthless as it sounded.  But then she called me the next day to say she re-read the email, and thst wasn't exactly what she meant. She then explained she just didn't love me the way she should have.  Which was followed up with she was so happy now and hopes i am too. To be honest, I couldn't wait to get off the phone. Part of me was afraid to say something that would set her off and the other part of me just didn't want to hear her voice anymore.  

     To sum it up, I think they want love, need love, they just don't know how to accept love

They are just extremely self-centered, really, really sick people.   
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« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2015, 12:49:44 PM »

They feel love but for a short period of time. They can't sustain it. That is because their brain is damaged. One day they can wake up and say- "hey I just don't love you anymore. I do not know why, but that is how I feel it" And they will not be lying. Here is a quote from a real Borderline.

Then one day, I won't love them anymore. It probably doesn't actually happen overnight, but it feels like it. I'll wake up and I just… don't want them in my life. And the fact they still love me will actually disgust me. I will be repulsed by the fact that they can't just “get over” me the way I'm already over them. And I'll hurt and I'll feel bad because I hurt them and I'll cry because I feel bad. But I won't really care, I'll walk away and it will be as though I never truly loved them and I won't know why. I'll say “he just wasn't right for me”? and I'll feel bad because I don't believe there's anyone out there who IS right for me and maybe that last one was the only chance I'll ever get to not die alone. And I'll tell myself I'm OK with dying alone because at least that way I can't hurt anyone else- including myself. But then I always crave love again…

They can't sustain it... .I witnessed that on a couple of occasions early on (after the honeymoon had passed). She texted or called me (I can't remember) and told me she didn't love me anymore and that the spark was gone. This came pretty much out of left filed because I thought things between us were fine; there was no turmoil whatsoever, we got along great and never argued. I was totally flabbergasted with her decision and very upset. I remember calling her up, asking why; she seemed so cold and detached from me.

The next day she apologized to me and said she made a mistake, "You know what I get like when I'm feeling depressed." We were back together again in less than 24 hours.

Something very similar happened again a couple of months later and the end result was the same. Randomly decides to end the relationship, says she doesn't love me/no spark anymore, but the next day she apologizes using pretty much the same excuses.

I was a very good boyfriend to her. Almost certain the best she's ever had. Those mini-breakups never made sense to me. She always felt she could not relate to me because my life was much different than her's (I had a job, I went to school, I had friends, and a very loving family to go home to). She had none of that.

This was the exact way we started to unravel as well.  He just stated BY TEXT MIND YOU, out of the blue that he didn't love me anymore.  That he was sorry, that it just "hit him".  Then two weeks later, he had made a mistake... I DO love you, I realize it clearly now.  Followed one month later with horrible treatment, fights started for no reason other than to destroy any chance of weekend plans.  Spending less time with me, lovemaking like a robot.  All loving treatment was gone.  It was the most traumatic experience I have been through.
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« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2015, 01:23:42 PM »

I believe my uBPD/NPD ex gf loved me in the way that she was capable of doing.  I also believe it was need and control based, and that she wasn't (or isn't) able to share in a reciprocating love relationship.  I don't blame her for this - it is what it is and it didn't work for me.  I remember her saying to me on more than one occasion that the only unconditional love is between parent and kids.  You can't have this love between two adults.  And, not coincidentally she couldn't express her commitment to me or the relationship until over 2 years in even though we had been acting like a couple the whole time.  The expression of commitment only came after I was attempting to flee the chaos and abuse.  Again, love with underlying control and need at the center.  As that control and need ramped up, so did the emotional disregulation and rage. 

I believe fear of being alone also played into it, probably on both sides but more so on hers.  I say that because she would call me early on late at night telling me I needed to stay on the phone with her because she couldn't handle being alone at night.  Some of her worst rage episodes were at times where I needed some space or sleep or whatever and she couldn't handle being alone.  So, I suppose that's need based too.

Through all of this, I stayed for 3+ years.  My love was real, but I had an internal head vs heart vs gut battle going on because what I was experiencing didn't match my values and my needs.  In other words, I wasn't loving and taking care of myself first.  Being over a year out of the r/s and now starting down the path of a healthy, reciprocating, adult relationship I can easily own my part in the past r/s and hold so strong to self love and acceptance.  I'll never completely figure everything out that happened in the r/s and I don't need to.  It just wasn't healthy for me to continue to participate in any form. 
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« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2015, 01:40:05 PM »

Looking back a bit on my relationship... .it was somewhat odd... .I think that mine observed from other couples from TV, movies, etc. the things that couples that are truly in love do and say to one another - the little things... .I can think of instances where she imitated those things similar to the awkwardness of someone who is trying their first beer in the company of her peers where she doesn't want to let on that she never tired beer before (and it really doesn't taste that good) but wants to give the impression that she is a beer connoisseur. A good example was gift giving at holidays and birthdays where during those occasions the gift giver is more excited/anxious about the gift than the recipient, hoping it pleases them and is an accurate representation of their affection. Her demeanor was almost as if it was just a requirement, something that you couldn't get out of but HAD to do. So, chop -chop, lets get it over with, I have stuff to do, kind of body language. Of course, getting gifts was something entirely different.

I think that she REALLY wanted to give love and be loved but that she was so fearful of SOMETHING, the appearance was that she didn't want to cave in to that something. Almost like at one time, she made a promise to herself that she never would... .Sad.
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« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2015, 06:29:36 PM »

Oh... .I think yes ... .they most definitely loved us... .it was real for them.  ... BUT... .I have come to believe that was the mind of a very small child.  I think that a child's love (from a child) is one of the most beautiful things on the planet... .

I have seen people use this reference, 'love like a small child'... .what does that mean?

I agree with paperlung's reference up above on the page... . 

I believe in my ex's damage occurred when her father ran off when she was 5 years old.  He was such an ass... he even took the family dog.  Anyone can say what they will (I had no knowledge of BPD until well after the relationship), but I believe that my ex was soo emotionally damaged by the abandonment from her father... plus... .her Mom is a REALLY great lady... .but the abandonment damaged her incredibly as well.   Imagine being a sensitive five year old (only child)... .Dad and the dog are gone and Mom is completely devastated and in deep deep grief and mourning.  I get it now... .my ex was destroyed as a child.  In many ways I think that her development was arrested emotionally.  She is very childlike, and self-centered.  Think of the damage and the unprocessed anger and resentment toward men about that abandonment.

Funny... .she could love pets like no one I ever saw... .like a child.  When it came to loving adult men ... .initially that is exciting... but it eventually falls short for both people. It cannot be sustained... .and if there is not mature, deep love and nurturing after the glow period on both people's part... .there just isn't much there... .

"you didn't hold my hand the right way!" ... .is kind of hard to field with an adult child... .and they think that that is a reason to go shopping for another man.  Childish.

How strange, Infared, that so much of your ex's story is the same as mine.  My ex, like yours, was a waif and highly sensitive. Her father abandoned the family when she was 5, mother became extremely depressed and was suicidal at times. My ex could also love pets - and babies, ohmigod if there was a baby within a 20 mile radius she picked up on it - like no one else I've ever seen.  Perhaps the pets/babies has nothing to do with BPD but still... .the similarities are kind of amazing.
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« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2015, 06:36:11 PM »

He just stated BY TEXT MIND YOU, out of the blue that he didn't love me anymore.  That he was sorry, that it just "hit him".  Then two weeks later, he had made a mistake... I DO love you, I realize it clearly now.  Followed one month later with horrible treatment, fights started for no reason other than to destroy any chance of weekend plans.  Spending less time with me, lovemaking like a robot.  All loving treatment was gone.  It was the most traumatic experience I have been through.

Push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-push-pull-push.

To infinity and beyond.
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« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2015, 06:42:34 PM »

"I think mine did truly love me. Maybe in a child like way the way because emotionally they are stuck in the child like phase. But yes I think mine did, as much as he was capable. Maybe only for as long as I met his needs but while we were meeting his needs I think he did."

This is true for me. And once someone else came along, she threw away a family and ten years like they were nothing. I even asked her about the replacement, "Are you in love with him?" She replied, "He meets some of my needs." I think she was being truthful in a rare moment. And once I took myself away from her (divorce) thus depriving her of whatever needs I met? Oh boy. I was and am Satan incarnate.
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« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2015, 06:57:28 PM »

What i find confusing is my BPD ex says he misses me when I'm away and not say seen each other for a bit (we see each other once a week). When a typical BPD is out of sight, out of mind. Unless its just one of his string of lies.
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« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2015, 07:33:32 AM »

I was an emotional tampon. Nothing more, nothing less. All I know is I loved her.
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« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2015, 08:41:01 AM »

I was an emotional tampon. Nothing more, nothing less. All I know is I loved her.

yes it comes down to that simple of a analogy. A tampon. When it's done you are thrown out.

It hurts knowing your feelings are so insignificant just a throw away. I'm actually experiencing great grief like many of us are. And love to them is disposable . I get people b/u but the lack of care for a person who stood by them cared for them and loved them is mind blowing. This whole push and pull has left me crazy. I know people occasionally do that in r/s to produce a chase. Intrigue passion at times. Or just because they are needy. But to constantly experience that type of attachment can make u so confused and always doubting urself. I hope I can re learn how to be more secure in myself that when someone in my future says get away, come here or no or yes that it means that... Rather than think is this person saying something else to me? It's very painful because let ur gaurd down then get hurt again or you recieve w a door slamming shut. Soo confusing.
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« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2015, 02:27:06 PM »

Mine said the words very early in the relationship, but I very much doubt she even knows what love truly is. To her, love is about need and power, not companionship,loyalty or sharing intimate thoughts and fears.

I'm also a firm believer that these people use partners as 'normalcy' props... .They are so alone an empty in their own company...

'Look at me, someone loves me, I'm relevant!... '

These are the kind of people who are never alone, never out of relationships... Normal people take time to heal when 'serious' relationships end.

Not BPD's!

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« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2015, 08:53:13 PM »

Mine said the words very early in the relationship, but I very much doubt she even knows what love truly is. To her, love is about need and power, not companionship,loyalty or sharing intimate thoughts and fears.

I'm also a firm believer that these people use partners as 'normalcy' props... .They are so alone an empty in their own company...

'Look at me, someone loves me, I'm relevant!... '

These are the kind of people who are never alone, never out of relationships... Normal people take time to heal when 'serious' relationships end.

Not BPD's!

Smiling (click to insert in post). **Correction**. Most times they start a new relationship and "push-off" from the old one to hop onto the new one. I have a shoe print on my forehead to prove it!  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2015, 09:09:38 PM »

Mine said the words very early in the relationship, but I very much doubt she even knows what love truly is. To her, love is about need and power, not companionship,loyalty or sharing intimate thoughts and fears.

I'm also a firm believer that these people use partners as 'normalcy' props... .They are so alone an empty in their own company...

'Look at me, someone loves me, I'm relevant!... '

These are the kind of people who are never alone, never out of relationships... Normal people take time to heal when 'serious' relationships end.

Not BPD's!

Smiling (click to insert in post). **Correction**. Most times they start a new relationship and "push-off" from the old one to hop onto the new one. I have a shoe print on my forehead to prove it!  Being cool (click to insert in post)

I guess that's what happened to me. Week later with another dude.
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« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2015, 02:11:09 PM »

"These are the kind of people who are never alone, never out of relationships... Normal people take time to heal when 'serious' relationships end."

Yes. This was the hallmark of my XW's life. From 15-29, never without a boyfriend. She would meet someone else, break up with the current boyfriend (destroying him) and on to the next one. I believe she was with me for so long (ten years) primarily because we had children. But ultimately and inevitably she met someone else and left. In the three years since we have been apart, I have dated many women. Not one have I been able to attach to since I am still attached to the woman I fell in love with and was with for ten years. (I'm slowly detaching, though, thank god). This made me realize just how messed up BPDs are. It is still mind-boggling that she was able to simply leave a life, a history, a family, children, and attach to someone she knew for mere months.
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« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2015, 02:49:14 PM »

From August 2013-August 2014, never did a day pass that he wasn't telling or texting me how much he loved me: I was the love of his life, his guardian angel, his best friend, the best person he had ever known. During our last altercation--when he clearly had emotionally disassociated, I cried out, "You never loved me." He was quiet for a few minutes, as if he really was pondering this and trying to remember, then he reluctantly said, "Well... .I think we had fun." All along my best friend had told me, "He NEEDS you; when he no longer feels that he does; he will leave." She was right.

What none of us saw coming was that he would leave without warning: taking my property and owing me $$$ thousands. He never said goodbye to my family or friends or to me.

Sometimes it feels like it never even happened.
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« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2015, 03:05:29 PM »

So basically from what I'm reading I need to prepare for more pain. Her meeting my replacement. I read so much about how they find another person . My split was at Christmas and everyday I'm somewhere in detachment and greiving my loss. It's a loss whether its whoever left. It's a lot of constant suffering . My ex left such in a unusual way it made no sense. But like I read most endings are over the top confusing?  I'm glad in a weird way because now I'm alone and I'm reflecting in my pain of what was real and what was fantasy. It's not love to hurt someone . One reflection is we had such a lousy foundation I'd always say we need to keep these episodes to a minimum so we can build on our foundation. Bpd doesn't know stability ... .It's consistency is impulse. Crazy ?
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« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2015, 03:07:26 PM »

From August 2013-August 2014, never did a day pass that he wasn't telling or texting me how much he loved me: I was the love of his life, his guardian angel, his best friend, the best person he had ever known. During our last altercation--when he clearly had emotionally disassociated, I cried out, "You never loved me." He was quiet for a few minutes, as if he really was pondering this and trying to remember, then he reluctantly said, "Well... .I think we had fun." All along my best friend had told me, "He NEEDS you; when he no longer feels that he does; he will leave." She was right.

What none of us saw coming was that he would leave without warning: taking my property and owing me $$$ thousands. He never said goodbye to my family or friends or to me.

Sometimes it feels like it never even happened.

I feel you... .mine left when I was away... .I received a simple text that our relationship was over  (after more than two years)... .she blocked me from contact including social media where se did the same to my family and friends and convinced her family and friends to do the same... .
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« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2015, 03:28:52 PM »

i'm certain that my stbxw loved me, in the way that a pwBPD understands that. there was no manipulation about it, though she doesn't know what it means to be honest, or forthright anyway, and there was lots that should have been said that wasn't, i believe because she'd have felt exposed, and open to losing the r/s. but in a pattern that (yes) i knew about in her previous life, when someone came along who said "i'll love you harder", off she went. i thought a marriage would be different, but if i thought that, a T said to me, "you don't know character."

i'm 99% certain that i will never allow such a r/s to develop again, because for my part i'll recognize where i'm suppleting my own needs by a r/s, and be wary of acting on that.
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« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2015, 10:06:21 AM »

i thought a marriage would be different, but if i thought that, a T said to me, "you don't know character."

This is why so many with BPD do not tell us about their (recent) past or think that "the past is the past" and it is off limits as far as forming an opinion.

It doesn't work that way for me.  Your character is defined by your actions, which by definition are in the past.  It matters less what you promise or the good game you talk.

People think they can do whatever and then suffer no consequences by waving their hand a bit.
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« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2015, 10:25:48 AM »

i'm certain that my stbxw loved me, in the way that a pwBPD understands that. there was no manipulation about it, though she doesn't know what it means to be honest, or forthright anyway, and there was lots that should have been said that wasn't, i believe because she'd have felt exposed, and open to losing the r/s. but in a pattern that (yes) i knew about in her previous life, when someone came along who said "i'll love you harder", off she went. i thought a marriage would be different, but if i thought that, a T said to me, "you don't know character."

i'm 99% certain that i will never allow such a r/s to develop again, because for my part i'll recognize where i'm suppleting my own needs by a r/s, and be wary of acting on that.

Maxen... .your words could be my words... .I did not marry my ex but I saw the behavior in her long before we were even friends... .and in the end she treated me just like you as well.  I really vetted her out and was cautious in the beginning... .she seemed to express genuine remorse for how she had behaved... .but it was all the sincerely of a 7 yr.old I guess... .also there was no admission or awareness of the repeated cut and run behavior... .only lies and denials... .she said there was no one. I thought that I had this sincere, rational person in my life ... .and she just turned into a lying plastic wind-up toy one day! I feel your frustration! 
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2015, 11:01:09 AM »

This dilemma used to drive me nuts and it was one of the reasons I got charmed back into a relationship with my ex after 4 months of NC.  ":)id she really love me?"  I asked her point blank and she said she did and always will.  And about two months later, she said she had feelings for someone else.  In hindsight, I should have run for the hills right then and there.  I mean, who wants love from someone that unstable?  She lacks emotional intelligence and confuses intense feelings with love (in that case, she was scared of the guy).  But I stuck around to prove that what she felt for me was real love.  Her feelings for this other guy soon faded and she professed I was the love of her life.  And we were together for a month or two before the relationship was on the rocks again.  Rinse and repeat.  I think there was some genuine love there because unlike the others I let her be her and didn't judge her for her past.  Of course, I also let her get away with too much, and how can you love someone you don't respect?  It goes both ways, because I lost my respect for her too.
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« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2015, 01:31:39 PM »

Suggest you read Anxiety 5's post "Finally figured it all out. There is no more confusion". Probably the most spot on post I have ever run across and opened my eyes, as it is almost identical to my story, while making me feel even more dumber for falling for this BS. Here is a sample:

"When we met she was separated yet not divorced. She had taken a huge blow to her ego by being rejected by her now ex husband. This was the ultimate loss of control. This is why she sought a relationship so soon. It was not to find love, it was to regain control and to self validate. To prove to herself she could be desired. To find a new source of the supply that was lacking to the point of debilitation.

She cried one time in the beginning because I went to the store. She wanted to hang out with me. When I took things slow because I was worried about the things she was going through she pushed harder for a physical relationship. The more I kept things slow, and stopped her advances the more she sought to hook me. She was desperate for validation. She needed someone to control.

I was love bombed into oblivion. I was smitten in a way I never had been before. It was an incredible rush. We took trips, we talked for hours and we had amazing conversations. I was validating to her that she was still desirable. The moment I let my guard down, she pulled away. It was her first test to see how well she had controlled me. She cheated on me twice, I found out. She said two really bizarre things to me then I never understood. One was "This can't be over. It's not over yet. I need this. I need you." She also said "I could tell by the hurt in your eyes how much you love me and it made me so sad."  These statements can be translated to the fact I validated her self worth through her ability to cause pain in my life. And the type of rush she felt meant she needed more of it. I was confirmed as a great hit of narcissistic supply. She wasn't done yet. She needed more."

Bingo. End of story. As I have mentioned before, I was an emotional tampon for her for 16 months. Once the ego was rebuilt, I get dumped for someone more acceptable to her lifestyle and circle of friends I was hidden from for the most part. She "thought she loved me" but I was simply an ego booster. Dumped via text with a "I finally know what I want". Thank you, please pull forward... .
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« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2015, 01:49:56 PM »

Bingo. End of story. As I have mentioned before, I was an emotional tampon for her for 16 months. Once the ego was rebuilt, I get dumped for someone more acceptable to her lifestyle and circle of friends I was hidden from for the most part. She "thought she loved me" but I was simply an ego booster. Dumped via text with a "I finally know what I want". Thank you, please pull forward... .

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  I am so grossed out but laughing hard! Sadly that analogy makes great sense. I've called myself an emotional sponge, but never thought of a tampon, not even once, till now.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

It doesn't work that way for me. Your character is defined by your actions, which by definition are in the past.  It matters less what you promise or the good game you talk.

People think they can do whatever and then suffer no consequences by waving their hand a bit.

This is so to the point and exactly what it took me decades to come to--that so much is just WORDS! I finally had to start telling myself that in my head when I would start to feel happy about some plans my ex made for us, because when it came down to the actual doing I was gonna be disappointed.
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« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2015, 02:54:33 PM »

Suggest you read Anxiety 5's post "Finally figured it all out. There is no more confusion". Probably the most spot on post I have ever run across and opened my eyes, as it is almost identical to my story, while making me feel even more dumber for falling for this BS. Here is a sample:

"When we met she was separated yet not divorced. She had taken a huge blow to her ego by being rejected by her now ex husband. This was the ultimate loss of control. This is why she sought a relationship so soon. It was not to find love, it was to regain control and to self validate. To prove to herself she could be desired. To find a new source of the supply that was lacking to the point of debilitation.

She cried one time in the beginning because I went to the store. She wanted to hang out with me. When I took things slow because I was worried about the things she was going through she pushed harder for a physical relationship. The more I kept things slow, and stopped her advances the more she sought to hook me. She was desperate for validation. She needed someone to control.

I was love bombed into oblivion. I was smitten in a way I never had been before. It was an incredible rush. We took trips, we talked for hours and we had amazing conversations. I was validating to her that she was still desirable. The moment I let my guard down, she pulled away. It was her first test to see how well she had controlled me. She cheated on me twice, I found out. She said two really bizarre things to me then I never understood. One was "This can't be over. It's not over yet. I need this. I need you." She also said "I could tell by the hurt in your eyes how much you love me and it made me so sad."  These statements can be translated to the fact I validated her self worth through her ability to cause pain in my life. And the type of rush she felt meant she needed more of it. I was confirmed as a great hit of narcissistic supply. She wasn't done yet. She needed more."

Bingo. End of story. As I have mentioned before, I was an emotional tampon for her for 16 months. Once the ego was rebuilt, I get dumped for someone more acceptable to her lifestyle and circle of friends I was hidden from for the most part. She "thought she loved me" but I was simply an ego booster. Dumped via text with a "I finally know what I want". Thank you, please pull forward... .

Funny stuff it's great being out of the FOG still waves of pain which I rate from 1-10 daily and just say I gotta feel this. But me too love bombed in beginning I also was in love bombing just to own my part. But my love maturely grew sure I got sick of the episodes later 4 years of ups and downs and when she was down I figure get urself back up. I think that's about when I began being less liked. Turned black . I figured we needed to learn to not drain each other and try to add to the r/s? My plan. The problem is both have to be on that page Smiling (click to insert in post)

So did she love me ? I guess. I know I loved her. The fact is now after the extreme b/u beyond disturbing I'd have to say we ran our course. I can't ever look at her the same. It would be like looking at a monster. So grant me the serenity to change what I can. Me. Take care of me
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« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2015, 03:13:10 PM »

I know this is a question that gets asked a lot and there seem to be many different answers depending on the people and circumstances, so I can only speak for my situation.

I have no doubt mine loved me when she loved me.  It would come and go and was by far the most difficult aspect of being in the r/s with her.   I generaly loved her consistently and almost unconditionally.  She loved me when she was regulated which wasn't very often and would usually last about 3-4 weeks.

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« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2015, 03:26:33 PM »

I think my ex cared about me. She left bread crumbs after the break-up and I was too angry at the time to see it. Few messages far in between from each other. I wish she could explain more and this is who she is. In two years, I saw a look on her face after I had rejected her that showed how hurt she was. She gave me numbers to get help because she thought I may hurt myself. Finally she said I didn't mean for things to end the way they did, I know it was hard.

I don't know what it feels like for her to survive day to day and I also don't think she realizes how hurt I was when she abandoned me. She's mentally ill, has real and legitimate impairments to her social skills. I think we loved each other differently, if she truly didn't care she wouldn't of made an effort to give some sort of apology. The words were there; I missed them because of how angry I was. My anger justified after having lost my family, affair, and reasonable access to the kids. It was hard not seeing your kids when you're used to seeing them 24 / 7.
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« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2015, 05:35:07 PM »

Mutt I do agree the not seeing my step daughter has been odd. I told her before she raged, smear campaigned , texted abusively , had others text me abusively, came over w police, had her ex try to beat me up at storage... .And prior to all that several weeks of blacking me out so negatively ... .During Christmas and new year not including the utilities and accts she shut down immediately... .

My point is she has wanted our girls to hang out. They see each other at school . I'm def out of FOG 2 months post b/u. I recently have felt some normalcy the last week.

I can't even think after such a insane hate bash like that do u just say sure lets let kids hang out? It's been too hard to even think that's possible. She's been quiet shes on her own agenda now . I'm also healing and enjoying my new found life in me I was depleted when this whole thing went down. I'm glad I've been able to share my ups and downs here 
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« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2015, 05:51:47 PM »

I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

I agree it is odd for her to want to have your girls hang out. Things are still raw.

I'm happy to hear that sharing your ups and downs here helps and you focus on your healing.

This is difficult stuff.

Hang in there.
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« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2015, 06:16:57 PM »

Once my head had cleared and now that I look back I know my ex cared about me.  There was a while I really wasn't sure because the way I was devalued and the push pull behavior that involved triangulation.  What was damaging when I felt like a vulnerable child and looking for guidance was told he other people she didn't care about me and a host of other ways of demonizimg her.  

The thing is now I realize she cared a lot about me. It does in fact make sense and now in retrospect it is quite simple for me to understand.  

So demonizimg other people's exs and telling them they will never understand it can harm people as these are merely things one is telling themself at the time to cope with the shame trying to convince others of their reality because one is confused.  

It was extremely confusing for me! And that's an understatement.

There really is light at the end of the tunnel but it comes through empathy, compassion and forgiveness.  It is a painfull journey and you have to find your own voice.
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« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2015, 09:06:55 PM »

I think at first in the early days he was desperate he wanted to find the replicant of his ex, he put on the same songs they listened to, was a bit obsessed with me to be honest. Nowadays its for him to get through another day. I was his day of supply, like "ill have this person on this day, that person on that day cause i cant be alone". Thats how i see it anyway b
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« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2015, 09:27:47 PM »

Mine told me that she had given me her heart, but that she just takes it back from time to time.  She also told me that she did not know what unconditional love was and that she did not see her own value/worth.  These comments were HUGE red flags of someone that did not operate from any place of healthy love and acceptance.  Therefore, how could she possibly be capable of unconditionally loving me and valuing me and our relationship?
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« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2015, 09:41:42 PM »

I too, often ponder over this question.

When we first met, my uBPD husband was just an angel walking the Earth. Five years younger with no women in his life yet, he accepted, cherished, worshipped and married me when I had just undergone as of a radical for a womanhood surgery, as double mastectomy. I admired and worshipped him back, having an infinite gratitude for his acceptance, love and care. Every night, I prayed God thanking for such an amazing person thinking it was God's reward for the hardship of cancer I went through in my early 30s.

A year down the road, my "saint" husband is dumping me out of a blue turning into an emotionally, verbally and economically abusive monster... .I still cannot wrap my mind around how can the person I've met with those divine qualities turn into such a merciless, coldblooded evil? He kicked me out of our apartment in winter (while I have no job) and intended to revoke health insurance and the green card I got through the marriage. He took most of the money off out joint account (left me $1500, not enough to cover even 1 month's rent here), yelled cursing me off and telling I am a financial burden and should go back to my country.

Important to note, I've lived in this state/US for over 10 years before I met him. And it was his dream to live in this big city ever since he was in college, but he couldn't afford it. I brought him here, helped to get established, get into top academic program for free, showing ways around and putting in touch with my network of friends and colleagues, and once he was on his feet, he totally dumped me... I also think he has cheated on me while I was away... My once angel husband.

Perhaps, I'll never find it out - whether he actually loved me or not. If not, then he is an incredibly talented actor who could have made a career in Hollywood, so well he pretended that he did.

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« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2015, 09:45:32 PM »

The did she love me?

Is im not sure a healthy question. It seems to go hand and hand with "is she a monster?"  Scapegoating is what it turns into and it slows down the healing process in fact it side steps it completely.  

Did she care about me?   That is a healthier question.

Then to frame in terms of attachment and nurturing with a focus on the fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment.  How issues with those things can lead to addiction.  Continue on this path to solve the puzzle.
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« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2015, 10:20:20 PM »

Did she love me? I don't know. Sometimes, maybe. Or maybe not at all.

Was I afraid of being alone? Yes, definitely! Not of spending lots of time on my own but the idea of a life with no one to share it with was terrifying. The idea of one day being old and too weak to care for myself and at the mercy of strangers. Terrifying! Now I don't know. While the idea of that was very real a year ago it's too abstract to imagine for some reason. It's a haze. Maybe it's because since my circumstances changed I switched off the once so real and frightening realisation of dying alone as a safety precaution. Or maybe I've accepted that that is what is going to happen and that's it's OK. I don't know though, I'm speculating.

BlimBlam's question is good. Did she care about me? I think I'd find it easier to handle if she didn't.
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« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2015, 01:18:38 AM »

I have left partners. In my youth, I had once, even someone lined up to be with during a break-up... .but even then, I was well aware of the fact that I was causing a person emotional pain by leaving them and I had empathy and had dignity toward the person I was leaving. I did many things to try and minimize their pain. I also changed my behavior in the future and became more responsible about other's feelings as I got older. I certainly did not go out of my way, or worse yet "plan" to cause them MORE emotional devastation.

My expwBPD planned and ran around the goal post to cause me as much emotional pain as she could. My replacement joined in on many occasions and they both clearly had planned and discussed some of the things that they did in public before-hand and they both seemed to be enjoying themselves at the moments that they were trying to cause me pain...

So... .I have thought about this at length... .a person that actually loved me in any healthy, rational fashion would not have treated me in the ways I was treated after the betrayal and abandonment.  No way. Only someone incapable of adult love would have acted in the way I was treated. Someone who was seriously mentally ill. So, no,... .I don't think that this person loved me and yes, I do believe that they were involved in some kind of pathological attachment to me so that they never had to spend 5-min of their life alone. Anything but that for them. ... .being unattached to someone for one-second would have been shear terror for my ex.
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« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2015, 06:43:11 AM »

This sentence in one of 2010's old posts here (which I highly recommended reading) really pulled on my heartstrings.

Excerpt
Who really is the Borderline? Someone who needed you for awhile because they were scared to be alone.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168086.0

Do you agree with this statement?

Do you think your ex ever genuinely loved you?

I know mine said that she did, but did she really?

How can someone who doesn't even love themself, love somebody else?

Or even know what love truly is if they never even experienced it as a a child from their parents?


My ex said to me whenever a family member would say, "I love you," she would say it back, but that it felt cold and hollow. As if it she didn't feel like she really meant it.

1. I agree and disagree with the statement... .it depends.

2 No. My ex does not have the capacity to love

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is patient, love is kind.

It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails.


He is the opposite of this verse.

3. Oh, he LOVES himself, make no mistake about that... .he spends more time in front of the mirror primping to get ready than my teen girls. And he's been bald for 20 years. He never denies himself, he always indulges himself, he is always first. Oh, he loves himself. That much I know is true.

He has no capacity to love anyone BUT himself.

4. For me personally, when I believed Jesus is my Lord, and Savior, THAT is when I began to know, understand, feel, and give, true love. Agape love. I have 3 very healthy and well adjusted, self confident and wonderful young adults (21-24). BUT that also made me an 'easy mark' for the ex to take advantage of, exploit, and use it as a weapon against me... .

But make no mistake, even though my childhood was pretty 'love-less'... .I do understand, know, and give, real love! I could have never done that on my own... .only through Christ who strengthens me!

5. My ex's mother was a piece of work. She would run me down in the dirt, treat me like garbage, then want to hug me and say "love ya". I never said it back. I DIDN'T LOVE HER, and I don't say "love ya" just because.

Telling someone you love them is a big deal to me.

My ex would say "you're hurting her feelings, just say it back".

I told him I don't love her, and she's not nice to me at all... .why in the world would I say it back?

So I never said it.

That may make me a 'monster'... .but I am not a liar.

Looking back now on that conversation... .it's so very "Norman Bates". Super creepy.

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« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2015, 11:35:48 AM »

Hi goingplaces.  Thanks for sharing what you did.  As a born again Christian myself, I often reflect on that very same Bible passage found in "The Love Chapter" of 1 Corinthians 13 that you quoted.  It is a powerful marker that truly defines what love is.  My ex-girlfriend did NOT operate in this agape love towards me.  She was incapable of  loving herself and therefore unable provide it to me and our relationship.  Which all around is so very sad.  
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« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2015, 10:30:26 PM »

My uBPDxw once told me in one of her few moments of reality where she was fully exposing her inner turmoil. She said "I don't know what love is. I feel that I need to be sexually desired by men but I know that is not love"[emphasis mine].

Although my BPDexgf never told me this, I came to understand that she equated sex with love to a large degree. That could easily have been due to her NPD as well. She definitely needed a string of men to shore up her self-esteem. Sex was her means to get love (as she undetstood love) rather than sex being a result of love. She certainly thought that sex was about control. She did tell me several times that any woman could control a man via sex. That was rather insulting to me to say the least, and when I terminated our relationship (not over this) I am positive that more sex was not going to make it better or allow her control over me and my decisions. I don't think that a pwBPD has any idea what a mature, selfless love is nor what it entails. Their version of love is need(s) driven and selfish beyond reason. That's not love that a normal, healthy adult gives and accepts.
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« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2015, 10:56:17 PM »

Interesting how this got brought up. I had to think and ponder about that since I am still married to my BPD husband. He used to tell me he loved me all the time. Now lately, he does not say it so much but "show" it on his good days. I believe he loves me to a point and then he hates me, never told me he hates me, but it feels that way when he "blames" me for problems that he has in this life. However, I am starting to feel that he cannot love me if he does not love himself. He has made comments that he fights with himself. Love can be described in many ways. Did I feel loved? Yeah, only on his good days. Not so much on his bad days. I have accepted him and his BPD, but not the dysregulated behavior. It is almost kind of like being in a domestic violence relationship, but he has never laid a hand on me, but the constant mood changing which brings on verbal abuse telling me "F... you" and stuff... .In the case of domestic violence is the significant other is always buying gifts as a way to apologize, but they never say sorry. My husband is the same way, he kisses and hugs me to let me know he is sorry but won't say he is sorry. That is his way of apologizing for his horrible behavior. I know he feels bad, but it is not acceptable to be constantly yelled at when he is having his outbursts. I guess I am learning to love myself more.
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« Reply #93 on: February 24, 2015, 11:47:37 PM »

Big red flag even in the beginning of my relationship with the exBPDgf. I was talking about love in general (nnot just romantically, just the word love), how it would make someone feel when they love and I said "I think love feels like coming home, like being home eventually.", her behaviour was so weird in that situation. She seemed lost like a little helpess child, ummed and erred and finally said "I don't know. I have no idea.". She really seemed ashamed but also annoyed by that topic. And so, so uncomfortable. So weird. But of course I was even more motivated to get it right with her to be able to make her feel love for the first time... .ugh, how narcissistic of me... .
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« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2015, 02:49:21 AM »

Big red flag even in the beginning of my relationship with the exBPDgf. I was talking about love in general (nnot just romantically, just the word love), how it would make someone feel when they love and I said "I think love feels like coming home, like being home eventually.", her behaviour was so weird in that situation. She seemed lost like a little helpess child, ummed and erred and finally said "I don't know. I have no idea.". She really seemed ashamed but also annoyed by that topic. And so, so uncomfortable. So weird. But of course I was even more motivated to get it right with her to be able to make her feel love for the first time... .ugh, how narcissistic of me... .

I told my uBPDexgf I had been in love only a few times, and it bothered her because she had been in love many times.  That speaks for itself.
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« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2015, 03:54:16 AM »

Big red flag even in the beginning of my relationship with the exBPDgf. I was talking about love in general (nnot just romantically, just the word love), how it would make someone feel when they love and I said "I think love feels like coming home, like being home eventually.", her behaviour was so weird in that situation. She seemed lost like a little helpess child, ummed and erred and finally said "I don't know. I have no idea.". She really seemed ashamed but also annoyed by that topic. And so, so uncomfortable. So weird. But of course I was even more motivated to get it right with her to be able to make her feel love for the first time... .ugh, how narcissistic of me... .

I told my uBPDexgf I had been in love only a few times, and it bothered her because she had been in love many times.  That speaks for itself.




A 12-year-old can fall in and out of love daily. Their is no possibility of depth in love. It's a childish love coupled with adult sexual appetite.
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« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2015, 09:33:56 AM »

Big red flag even in the beginning of my relationship with the exBPDgf. I was talking about love in general (nnot just romantically, just the word love), how it would make someone feel when they love and I said "I think love feels like coming home, like being home eventually.", her behaviour was so weird in that situation. She seemed lost like a little helpess child, ummed and erred and finally said "I don't know. I have no idea.". She really seemed ashamed but also annoyed by that topic. And so, so uncomfortable. So weird. But of course I was even more motivated to get it right with her to be able to make her feel love for the first time... .ugh, how narcissistic of me... .

I told my uBPDexgf I had been in love only a few times, and it bothered her because she had been in love many times.  That speaks for itself [emphasis mine].




A 12-year-old can fall in and out of love daily. Their is no possibility of depth in love. It's a childish love coupled with adult sexual appetite [emphasis mine].

The above bolded statements sum up BPD love in a nutshell. Their love is as dysfunctional as teats on a boar hog and as fleeting as the morning dew. The simply don't have the capability to give mature, healthy love. They don't know what that type of love is or what that type of love entails. It is a horrid life for them to lead and equally as horrid for those that are unlucky enough to fall into their orbit romantically.
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raisins3142
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« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2015, 10:39:47 AM »

Big red flag even in the beginning of my relationship with the exBPDgf. I was talking about love in general (nnot just romantically, just the word love), how it would make someone feel when they love and I said "I think love feels like coming home, like being home eventually.", her behaviour was so weird in that situation. She seemed lost like a little helpess child, ummed and erred and finally said "I don't know. I have no idea.". She really seemed ashamed but also annoyed by that topic. And so, so uncomfortable. So weird. But of course I was even more motivated to get it right with her to be able to make her feel love for the first time... .ugh, how narcissistic of me... .

I told my uBPDexgf I had been in love only a few times, and it bothered her because she had been in love many times.  That speaks for itself [emphasis mine].




A 12-year-old can fall in and out of love daily. Their is no possibility of depth in love. It's a childish love coupled with adult sexual appetite [emphasis mine].

The above bolded statements sum up BPD love in a nutshell. Their love is as dysfunctional as teats on a boar hog and as fleeting as the morning dew. The simply don't have the capability to give mature, healthy love. They don't know what that type of love is or what that type of love entails. It is a horrid life for them to lead and equally as horrid for those that are unlucky enough to fall into their orbit romantically.

I think this aids devaluing and infidelity.  They can fall out of love with you and develop a new infatuation based simply upon them being out without you and a nice stranger talking to them.

Mine was mad and silent toward me for the entire birthday trip she had planned for me simply because I suggested a car pooling scheme she did not like (and she did not tell me she did not like it).
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Infared
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« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2015, 02:42:01 PM »

Big red flag even in the beginning of my relationship with the exBPDgf. I was talking about love in general (nnot just romantically, just the word love), how it would make someone feel when they love and I said "I think love feels like coming home, like being home eventually.", her behaviour was so weird in that situation. She seemed lost like a little helpess child, ummed and erred and finally said "I don't know. I have no idea.". She really seemed ashamed but also annoyed by that topic. And so, so uncomfortable. So weird. But of course I was even more motivated to get it right with her to be able to make her feel love for the first time... .ugh, how narcissistic of me... .

I told my uBPDexgf I had been in love only a few times, and it bothered her because she had been in love many times.  That speaks for itself [emphasis mine].




A 12-year-old can fall in and out of love daily. Their is no possibility of depth in love. It's a childish love coupled with adult sexual appetite [emphasis mine].

The above bolded statements sum up BPD love in a nutshell. Their love is as dysfunctional as teats on a boar hog and as fleeting as the morning dew. The simply don't have the capability to give mature, healthy love. They don't know what that type of love is or what that type of love entails. It is a horrid life for them to lead and equally as horrid for those that are unlucky enough to fall into their orbit romantically.

The other part of that is they have no REAL clue as to the kind of pain that they actually cause when they run off on their selfish infidelities. Hey, no big deal... they got them some.
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« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2015, 03:13:18 PM »

You've laid out my story. Exactly the same situation here.

Interesting how this got brought up. I had to think and ponder about that since I am still married to my BPD husband. He used to tell me he loved me all the time. Now lately, he does not say it so much but "show" it on his good days. I believe he loves me to a point and then he hates me, never told me he hates me, but it feels that way when he "blames" me for problems that he has in this life. However, I am starting to feel that he cannot love me if he does not love himself. He has made comments that he fights with himself. Love can be described in many ways. Did I feel loved? Yeah, only on his good days. Not so much on his bad days. I have accepted him and his BPD, but not the dysregulated behavior. It is almost kind of like being in a domestic violence relationship, but he has never laid a hand on me, but the constant mood changing which brings on verbal abuse telling me "F... you" and stuff... .In the case of domestic violence is the significant other is always buying gifts as a way to apologize, but they never say sorry. My husband is the same way, he kisses and hugs me to let me know he is sorry but won't say he is sorry. That is his way of apologizing for his horrible behavior. I know he feels bad, but it is not acceptable to be constantly yelled at when he is having his outbursts. I guess I am learning to love myself more.

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