Fighting back: the consequences

[Devaluedman]

I believe the trigger that ended my two week Kim Kardashian marriage (not kidding) was that I objected to my ex's treatment of me immediately after we married. It was a vicious cycle of me getting angry and her distancing, until the r/s was obliterated. Then, as a result, I was accused of being angry and verbally abusive. The couples counselor also bought into her version of events, so I was sandbagged by everyone.

I wonder whether any of y'all were called verbally abusive and angry by a BPD. I never bought into her bullpucky that I was abusive and angry, and I never will to my last dying breath.

[cosmonaut]

I'm so sorry to hear about the abrupt and painful end to your marriage.  I can only imagine how hard that had to be to see your ex become so dysregulated and accuse you of awful things.  Many here can relate to the pain of that.

Since pwBPD are triggered by emotional intimacy, I suspect that's the major reason behind her dysregulation.  Being married might have been a very emotionally chaotic event for her.  It may have stirred up emotions that she has no idea how to regulate or deal with in a healthy manner.  So, she resorted to using an array of unhealthy coping mechanisms.  The distancing is one very often used.  My ex used this frequently.  Retreating is one way of trying to escape from the trigger (you) in order to quiet the emotions.  It's a very destructive way of dealing with their emotions, but it is very common with the disorder.  We must realize that our exes simply don't have any better ways of coping.

Please know that this is not your fault, however.  It is not in any way your fault that you became a trigger.  That is just the result of the disorder.  There is nothing you did wrong and it certainly wasn't because you weren't good enough.  And it's not because you weren't cared about.  It's because your ex has a serious disorder.  So, please always remember that this isn't your fault.

How have you been handling such a painful breakup?  Are you two divorced now, or separated?

[fromheeltoheal]

And there's a line between angry and abusive.  Any relationship has challenges and anger is totally acceptable, part of getting to know one another in fact, and how well the upset is resolved can actually strengthen a relationship, but abusive crosses the line.  You know which side of the line you were on, and it's also common to lose it when we're confused and on edge in a relationship with a borderline, so if you lost it and did cross the line in the midst of crazy, acknowledge that too, cut yourself some slack, and see what you can learn from it.  And of course a defense mechanism we all use, borderlines to the extreme sometimes, is to deflect responsibility with blame, and it takes a while to untangle what was really yours to own and what was 'gifted' to you by someone trying to feel better about themselves.

[Devaluedman]

I have been separated from her for seven months. The separation occurred a few weeks after the marriage. I have filed for divorce.

I believe I was so blindsided by her devaluation that I did overreact and get angry. But I don't feel I am an angry person. I have a lot of guilt about this though. I am sorry I reacted the way I did. I lashed out. I just didn't know what was happening. I thought she loved me. She was the one who pushed for us to marry, so it makes no sense why she ended it so quickly. She said I changed and that I wasn't the same person I was during our courtship. She said she had a hunch that I wasn't right for her now. But all we had was a minor fight!

Thank you for you kind words, btw.

[getting_better]

Devaluedman - you are my hero.  My diagnosed BPD soon-to-be-ex-wife did exactly as you've described to me from day one.  I stayed in the marriage for 23 years because I didn't have your courage. 

I hope to embrace the honesty, self-respect, and courage you've demonstrated for the rest of my days.

[Devaluedman]

Getting better--

Thanks so much for your kind words. I think it's because I'm Italian and I don't take sh1t from anyone once they push the wrong buttons.  . But all kidding aside, there was no courage involved really. I knew it was an untenable situation and I wasn't going to accede to her demands that I be a lapdog for her. That's just how I roll. She was a selfish, entitled a-hole who had no respect for me or my feelings.  I do believe in karma though and somewhere along the line life gets you back.

[apollotech]

"I wonder whether any of y'all were called verbally abusive and angry by a BPD."

I was never told that I was an angry or abusive person, but I was constantly asked if I was angry or upset about something. My BPDexgf had a very strong bias towards incorrectly reading (possibly projecting?) negative emotions in another person.

I was never sure if she was doing this because she could project her own anger onto someone else this way, or because of her emotional immaturity, she simply couldn't correctly decipher emotions in others. Even blatantly obvious sarcasm (jokingly expressed) sent her into withdrawal or lashing out mode.

A pwBPD doesn't operate well in gray areas, so that also may be a reason that your ex overstated what she saw as your response. Minor incidents can quickly become cataclysmic when their (a pwBPD) emotions become their reality.

[zundertowz]

In the end fighting back I believe paints you blacker but in the relationship seemed to keep her under control believe it or not... .there was a 6 month time were I was out of work and had no were to go when I was very passive almost afraid of getting kicked out on the street... .she sensed this and that was when she was at her worst... .she went after my weekness which was being homeless and my severe anxiety and depression at the time... .during this time i pretty much knew I was leaving it was just a matter of time.  Last fight i pretty much let her have it and we parted in a war and her enemy.  The good thing about this is those nonstop txts, calls, and emails only lasted till i moved my stuff out... .shes been silent for 3 months which has helped NC and moving on... .btw im italian also

[Madison66]

So sorry you are going thru this. And, please cut yourself a break and celebrate that you got out early! I dealt with much of what you posted in my 3+ year r/s with uBPD/NPD exgf. This was especially true of couples T sessions. First T advised me of her assessment that my ex exhibited strong BPD/NPD traits and my ex then abandoned T and threatened to b/u. Two subsequent couples T attempts made me so frustrated I wanted to scream. My ex would turn on the tears, spin her reality and try to show me as abusive. I did become angry, frustrated and depressed the longer I stayed in the r/s and dealt with the emotional and eventual physical abuse. I finally built up the strength to leave the r/s nineteen months ago. The recovery and detachment were rough, but I learned huge life lessons and really took time to deal with my own stuff. Life is great not having to deal with all the chaos and I'm happily in a r/s with a fantastic non PD lady!  Again, good for you for getting out early and avoiding almost certainly years of abuse!

[Devaluedman]

The odd thing is that my Ex keeps emailing and calling me. I ask her why? And she says she still loves me, but doesn't want to be in a r/s with me. She's horny again, that's my take. Off the psych meds have made her want some loving. That's how these freaks operate. She tried recycling other men she screwed but apparently wasn't attracted.

We nons are truly playthings to these broken people.  

I'm still susceptible to her, so I really need to go NC. But that's where I have failed. She's also dragging her feet on the divorce, refusing to get the papers back to me--so she can't move on for some reason, but she sure likes to torment me.     But that's BPD. They have no moral center at all. Just a black hole of emptiness.

Peace out, y'all.

[cosmonaut]

She's not a freak, she's just a disordered person.  Let's remember that she never chose to have BPD and she's not distancing to make your life hell.  She doesn't take pleasure in tormenting you.  She's doing it because she is in tremendous pain - a type of pain that perhaps you and I will never be able to fully understand.  It's important not to give into demonizing.  It hurts tremendously to be shut out by the person we love - I've been through it too - but there are clear clinical reasons for it.  Try and have some sympathy for her.  As you said, she's a very broken person and that's not her fault in any way.

Anger is a normal and necessary part of healing, and I know that you are in tremendous pain right now.  I've been through it with my ex, and it was the worst, most miserable experience of my life.  So, I understand your anger.  I felt it too.  Our healing really does start, however, when we start to shift the focus to ourselves and what we need to heal.  Often there are deep issues inside of ourselves that need to be addressed.  Chances are very good that your ex was soothing something inside of you just as you were soothing her desperate need for attachment.  That was certainly true for me.   

[Devaluedman]

I understand what you are saying but isn't it a choice she is making, like alcoholism? I see it as a moral failing in some ways. Abuse is wrong. These people know what they are doing. I know there is an argument that it's a genetic predisposition, but I don't buy it. There are plenty of people who have been traumatized as kids and don't abuse their partners as a adults. She had a choice to abuse me. Just like I have a choice to go shoot someone in the face, and choose not to.

I understand and value your humanity. You are taking the high road. But I'm just not in a state of mind yet to forgive my abuser.

[still_in_shock]

Devaluedman, your jumping out of the marriage in 2 weeks sounds a bit... .BPD on its own. Haven't you known each other before you married?

I often time wonder how many BPDs come here and accuse their partners of being the ones.

[cosmonaut]

I understand Devaluedman.  It may be too early yet to be able to see things in that light.  I have the advantage of being able to view my relationship from a year and half out.  I do think that it helps us in our healing, however, to try and understand the disorder as it is.  Often we get stuck in anger when we fixate on how much our ex wronged us.  I agree with you 100% that abuse is wrong.  Abuse is abuse.  The behavior is wrong.  But when looking at guilt we have to look at the motivation.  And the motivation for pwBPD is not to hurt us.  It is to escape the tremendous pain that they are in or to get us recognize the tremendous pain they feel.  pwBPD are not sociopaths.  They do not delight in the suffering of others.  BPD is all about out of control emotions and the profound pain and shame that result.  This is the driving force behind the bad behaviors, and some of them are indeed abusive.  You are completely right about that.  And I'm very sorry you went through such abuse.  No one should ever have to experience that.

Things will get easier as time goes on.  Right now, while you are hurting so much try and take very good care of you.  Be gentle with yourself.  Try and eat right, get enough sleep, get some exercise.  Things that help us to feel better.  It's so important when we are reeling like this.  I can assure you that it will get easier with time, however.  Focus on you.  Take good care of you.  And keep posting here.  We're all here to support you.

[once removed]

devaluedman,

sorry i dont know your backstory, but how far out are you, how much have you read on BPD so far (apart from the stories here) and how much have you known about mental illness before this incident?

i was fortunate in that, though i knew nothing of BPD, i had a fascination with psychology long before i met my ex. addiction too. cosmonaut is right in that your partner did not choose her mental illness. i dont believe alcoholism is a choice either, any more than a personality disorder is. sure, resisting help, and denying the problem are choices, like giving into the urge to use, but empathy helps to understand. a personality disorder, like substance abuse, distorts ones thoughts, and in many ways facilitates making right of wrong. the sense that what you know is the only choice. it limits your sense of options; its not the same as breaking your arm and choosing whether or not to see a doctor. im of the mind that that doesnt excuse any of it, just helps to understand, which is what so many of us are seeking to do in the first place. pwBPD are rare. pwBPD that seek treatment are more rare. pwBPD that maintain ongoing treatment are more rare than that. there are reasons for that. i dont think they are character flaws or weakness. imo, thats a misunderstanding of mental illness.

"I understand and value your humanity. You are taking the high road. But I'm just not in a state of mind yet to forgive my abuser."

thats okay, it really is. you are not required to do so. and if you do so, the only requirement is that its in your own time, in your own way. in the meantime, understanding, compassion and empathy for mental illness, i think will help facilitate your healing.

[BorisAcusio]

They do not delight in the suffering of others.  

There is a clear connection between childhood abuse and the level of vindictiveness expereinced in pwBPD. They can actually take pleasure hurting an object they deem dangerous, evoking anxiety and persecutory fears, thus' justifying the deflection of aggressive impulses onto bad objects

[Mr Hollande]

They do not delight in the suffering of others.  

There is a clear connection between childhood abuse and the level of vindictiveness expereinced in pwBPD. They can actually take pleasure hurting an object they deem dangerous, evoking anxiety and persecutory fears, thus' justifying the deflection of aggressive impulses onto bad objects

My ex certainly took pleasure in the pain she caused me when she announced my replacement. She did it with the sadistic glee of a child pulling the wings off a fly.

[Devaluedman]

I'm not sure what to think anymore. They create an environment in which you doubt yourself. More than that, I think I was becoming unhinged myself. I know I have issues. I'm not trying to dismiss that. But I know there was abuse involved on her part, even though she turned it around and made it seem like I was the abuser. I understand this is part of the disorder, the projection.  It worked on me like magic.  I doubted myself. Was I the crazy one? I still don't know.  I DO know I am self-aware, though.  Perhaps I contributed to the toxic environment. Yet, I doubt she could admit she played a role as well. She even said that the totality of the blame rested with me.  So how is one to proceed in a loving relationship when your partner refuses to admit some basic facts?  Nothing can be resolved.  That was the crux of the relationship dysfunction: we couldn't resolve a very minor argument that most healthy couples resolve with minimal effort.

So, it degenerated into a roller coaster of blame, and never stopped, with her distancing herself, and me getting angrier and angrier because she refused to resolve the issue. She claimed I f#$#ked up--that I sabotaged the relationship with my behavior.  The level of denial on her part was amazing. You can't have a relationship with someone like that--it's impossible!  

I don't blame her for the BPD, understand me.  I know her mother abused her in childhood with abject neglect and abandonment because her mother was a selfish a-hole.  The person I should be angry with is her mother, who destroyed a smart, beautiful woman, who I truly loved.  But it's hard for me to get past the abuse and see her as she is. I only feel hate now. I am sorry. I hope God will heal me. I truly do.

[Mutt]

So how is one to proceed in a loving relationship when your partner refuses to admit some basic facts?  Nothing can be resolved.

I can understand feeling confused and frustrated with your ex partner's behaviors. I was with my ex partner for several years and she rewrites reality in a way that she's convinced that it's real and it made me doubt myself because of how convinced she was that her version of the truth is fact. She projects her negative emotions and actions on others and dissociates and alters reality to match her out of place feelings.

How she interprets reality is real to her, it is mental illness. Reality is open to debate, everyone can interpret an event differently than the next person? If she's convinced that the sky is red, I can't control that. I know what transpired and I know my truth. I don't justify, attack, defend, explain my reality to my ex partner. So be it, if she chooses to believe differently.

[Devaluedman]

Mutt,

See that's where I ran into trouble. I felt like I HAD to, it was my duty to, in fact, point out how wrong-headed she was, how selfish, how narcissistic, how entitled, how self-absorbed she was.  When I did that I was "lashing out," and she used it against me, saying that I was insulting her and being verbally abusive.  Perhaps I was insulting her, and there was no excuse for it.  But a lot of it was self-defense.  Her behavior toward me was not the behavior of a woman in love with her husband, and so, yes, I was hurt, and the hurt turned to anger, and more ugly retorts.   But it was all used against me, so that her original slight of me was hidden in the background, even as I tried to rationally, point by point, show what her actions had done to hurt me.  

It was exasperating!    It went on for months and months!  The same frickin' argument, over and over again, ad nauseam, month after month after month. I was going literally nuts. I drank like a fish, smoked tons of reefer.  I was a mess.

[PlanetsBendBetweenUs]

"I wonder whether any of y'all were called verbally abusive and angry by a BPD. I never bought into her bullpucky that I was abusive and angry, and I never will to my last dying breath."

Yes I was told this many, many time. Angry, Abusive, Controlling, Dominating... .

The list is endless. She turned my world upside down and made me out to be the bad person. DONE. OVER. NC is the only way to go. Thease monsters know no limits or boundaries. They are not going to save you and neither is anyone else. Save Yourself! Save Yourself!

[Mutt]

I get it. I can see how it's exasperating. I felt like I was on the defense and getting blamed for things that I didn't do or told and that I didn't understand her needs. I didn't understand that she had a personality disorder, I often held my feelings in because I didn't want to upset her or have her get angry at me. I would eventually get frustrated at her behaviors and get angry at her for her accusations and blaming.

The couples counselor also bought into her version of events, so I was sandbagged by everyone.

I actually lost my temper in a couple's counseling meeting because the counselor was taking her side. I was with her for 7 years and this was around the last year or so and I had had enough with couples counseling because nothing was working. So, to the counselor, I looked like the uncaring, unsympathetic husband that my wife was depicting?

What I didn't understand at the time is that BPD is a persecution complex and the counselors were not seeing that my wife was triangulating me as persecutor and she was victim. I had gone to many different counselors and many sessions and for me I was persecutor and the counselor was rescuing.  I didn't understand that my wife was mentally ill and neither did the counselors.

I'm sorry to hear it affected your health. I did drink alcohol at times to cope as well too. Her behaviors were getting worst and I felt like I wasn't getting support from family, counselors and my wife. I felt like I was always at fault. I can see how it's frustrating. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[dobie]

I think as long as what you doing is not illegal or could land you in trouble there is nothing wrong with "taking your power back" your ex likely has ways only you know that can "wound her" if it makes you feel better if it gives you restitution go for it .

My x may have BPD but she knows right from wrong she can feel empathy and she does know what hurts others especially me .

Mentally ill or not they are self aware more so than a schizophrenic so don't fool for the "we must turn the other cheek" because they are "disordered" bs

Ted Bundy was disordered so was Jeffrey dhamer they at least in dahmers case were not mad and were responsible for their actions they are not and never would be held  unaccountable by reason of insanity .

Wolves in sheep's clothing yes

Poor victims nope

I have ADHD impulse control is harder for me than most however that does not give me carte Blanche to act on it and not pay the consequences .

I'm my exs case she actually admires and respect bullies because she is one being nice, turning the other cheek etc fills her with disgust .

[Devaluedman]

No, I NEVER EVER intended to hurt my ex.  I loved her!  That's what she couldn't understand.  I was crazy about her.  And I don't want to do anything now to hurt her either.  (Even though I hate her actions and believe she's not entirely a good person.)  I guess I just don't want to feel like a monster.  It's not about revenge really. 

[dobie]

No, I NEVER EVER intended to hurt my ex.  I loved her!  That's what she couldn't understand.  I was crazy about her.  And I don't want to do anything now to hurt her either.  (Even though I hate her actions and believe she's not entirely a good person.)  I guess I just don't want to feel like a monster.  It's not about revenge really.  

Sorry I misunderstood


I don't think  it possible that I loved someone like my ex I think need & pity spring to mind but being in love I'm not sure maybe I "loved her" but I don't think I was ever "in love" with her how could I a man love a child no I loved the adulation I loved the feeling of power the worship the control even

In my exs case what is to love ? Very little really .

In fact what drew me to her was my need NOT to love her but her to love me

[Devaluedman]

Dobie,

I definitely don't love her now. And I am still struggling to understand whether what I loved was an illusion. So... .was it really love?  Who the heck knows? My emotions are all over the map. I'm conflicted. And I guess that shows how ill this person is/was if you can't get a true handle on your feelings for them.

[cosmonaut]

I'm not sure what to think anymore. They create an environment in which you doubt yourself. More than that, I think I was becoming unhinged myself. I know I have issues. I'm not trying to dismiss that. But I know there was abuse involved on her part, even though she turned it around and made it seem like I was the abuser. I understand this is part of the disorder, the projection.  It worked on me like magic.  I doubted myself. Was I the crazy one? I still don't know.  I DO know I am self-aware, though.  Perhaps I contributed to the toxic environment. Yet, I doubt she could admit she played a role as well. She even said that the totality of the blame rested with me.  So how is one to proceed in a loving relationship when your partner refuses to admit some basic facts?  Nothing can be resolved.  That was the crux of the relationship dysfunction: we couldn't resolve a very minor argument that most healthy couples resolve with minimal effort.

So, it degenerated into a roller coaster of blame, and never stopped, with her distancing herself, and me getting angrier and angrier because she refused to resolve the issue. She claimed I f#$#ked up--that I sabotaged the relationship with my behavior.  The level of denial on her part was amazing. You can't have a relationship with someone like that--it's impossible!  

I don't blame her for the BPD, understand me.  I know her mother abused her in childhood with abject neglect and abandonment because her mother was a selfish a-hole.  The person I should be angry with is her mother, who destroyed a smart, beautiful woman, who I truly loved.  But it's hard for me to get past the abuse and see her as she is. I only feel hate now. I am sorry. I hope God will heal me. I truly do.

This is a very good post, Devaluedman.  I can hear how painful and confusing this has been for you, and I'm so sorry you have been through it.  It is an agonizing experience.  No one here blames you for being angry (your anger is both justified and necessary), and I certainly don't think you are a bad person.  You are very hurt, as are all of us here.  I'm trying to help you to see BPD in a more holistic light, but I'm certainly not trying to minimize in any way what you are going through.  I have been through a terribly painful breakup too, and I very much understand.  This is very hard.   Hang in there, my man.  Things will get easier.

We often say around here that "feelings are facts" for pwBPD.  This is because overwhelming emotions are a core feature of BPD.  Since pwBPD do not have the ability to self soothe and (without treatment) do not have a set of healthy coping mechanisms to use, they utilize an array of destructive and primitive coping mechanisms: splitting, dissociating, self-harm, impulsive behaviors, withdrawing, etc.  It's important to realize that these feelings as facts are very, very real to pwBPD.  They are part of their reality.  This may be hard to understand, but this is why BPD is a serious mental disorder.  It is not based in objective reality.  These are distorted beliefs.  So, I completely understand your frustration with not being able to get your ex to see the light, so to speak.  I tried for a long time to get my ex to realize how irrational some of her thinking was too, and I never got anywhere with it.  It was real to her.  It's the same with your ex.  We can't change this about the disorder.  That's why I was stressing to you that this is not your fault.  It's not.  You didn't cause this at all.  This is something that occurs very early in life for your ex, long before you two ever met.  This withdrawing is a result of the disorder.  It is not you.  It is not your fault.

Keep posting.  You have a lot of good things you are saying.  It's perfectly ok to be angry and you need to express it.  We try and avoid demonizing our exes here, because the goal here is healing.  We want to move on and we want to have healthier relationships in the future.  We can learn and we can grow from this experience.  For right now, take good care of you.  You are in tremendous pain.  You are in crisis and you have been hurt at a core level.  This is why this is so agonizing, and that's what will have to be addressed in your healing.  It's what makes these bonds so very, very loaded and why they are so devastating to break.  This is far more than a breakup.  That is a pattern you will see over and over here.  Hang in there, man.  I know this hurts like hell, but it will eventually get easier.  We all understand, and we all support you.

There is a clear connection between childhood abuse and the level of vindictiveness expereinced in pwBPD. They can actually take pleasure hurting an object they deem dangerous, evoking anxiety and persecutory fears, thus' justifying the deflection of aggressive impulses onto bad objects

As usual, Boris, you have a very good point.  There is no doubt that the behavior of pwBPD can be exceedingly hurtful and even downright abusive.  I suppose when we start trying to assign dark motives to the reasons behind the behaviors that we run into trouble.  Because we are attempting to judge someone from our reality who is not experiencing our reality.  I'm no moral relativist.  I would never say that the behaviors are acceptable.  But we must be careful in examining the motives of pwBPD.  We have to try and see things through their eyes and how they are seeing the relationship.  You are absolutely right that they feel persecuted.  They feel wronged and hurt and victimized.  They believe they are the injured party.  They may even believe that we are some horrible, terrible person.  So, you are absolutely right that this is then used to justify their response to this perceived injury.  Sometimes they withdraw and sometimes they lash out in response.  They aren't doing this for pleasure, however.  It is pain and shame that drive the disorder.  It is this feeling that they are being persecuted for their failure to have achieved normal development of an autonomous self.  They may realize that they are out of control emotionally.  They may realize that they are hurting people.  And that only furthers the cycle as it piles on more shame and persecution.  And on and on it goes.

[dobie]

Dobie,

I definitely don't love her now. And I am still struggling to understand whether what I loved was an illusion. So... .was it really love?  Who the heck knows? My emotions are all over the map. I'm conflicted. And I guess that shows how ill this person is/was if you can't get a true handle on your feelings for them.

I feel the same but my T told me I was using her and I was I remember trying to "be in love with her" I thought I was at the end but I truly think now I pitied her I cared for her she was high value and i liked that and I wanted the worship back   . but the real person I was always in love with was me reflected back from her and that's what's missing now for me my T said I had been very careful to hide all my life my feelings of low self esteem she activated a mirror to myself .

I think I have some NARC traits I'm not a NARC though

[cosmonaut]

Ted Bundy was disordered so was Jeffrey dhamer they at least in dahmers case were not mad and were responsible for their actions they are not and never would be held  unaccountable by reason of insanity .

Dobie, you're letting your anger get the better of you, buddy.  Cheating, lying, raging, hitting, running away and other behaviors are very hurtful.  Even abusive.  They are not in the same category as murdering people.  Let's keep some perspective.

[dobie]

Ted Bundy was disordered so was Jeffrey dhamer they at least in dahmers case were not mad and were responsible for their actions they are not and never would be held  unaccountable by reason of insanity .

Dobie, you're letting your anger get the better of you, buddy.  Cheating, lying, raging, hitting, running away and other behaviors are very hurtful.  Even abusive.  They are not in the same category as murdering people.  Let's keep some perspective.

Cosmo I'm saying Bundy was held responsible so was dhamer they were not judged insane yet we allow BPDs to get a pass because they are I'll ?