Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
January 20, 2021, 02:40:40 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
  Help!   Groups   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Things we can't afford to ignore
Depression: Stop Being Tortured by Your Own Thoughts
Surviving a Break-up when Your Partner has BPD
My Definition of Love. I have Borderline Personality Disorder.
Codependency and Codependent Relationships
89
Pages: 1 2 ... 5 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Her extreme fear/avoidance of me after the final discard  (Read 9116 times)
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« on: August 20, 2015, 11:27:53 AM »

Has anyone had any experience with their ex exhibiting extreme fear towards you after a breakup?

It’s coming on 11 months since I last spoke with my exBPD/(possible NPD) fiancé. She moved out while I was on a business trip and notified me via text that she had done so. She blocked me from contact in every way that one can think of and went as far as to convince her family and friends that they should do the same on social media. It was a thorough ‘scorched earth’ ending.

A handful of times over this period, I had circumvented her blocks and contacted her (she simply hung up) only to have her manipulate the law (police, lawyer friends) to threaten me with legal action if I ever attempted to do so again. Even more strangely, she had left a large amount of valuable property here that I saved to return of which, only through third parties, she instructed me to discard or donate (the new lawyer now wants the stuff returned!).

I really thought that at some point she would come around and we would be able to have at least conversation or maybe even a friendship so that I could have closure; after all, this was a person with whom I had a stellar relationship, no arguing, no fighting, no disagreements (I don’t think that I ever so much as raised my voice to her!) – she was not a classic pwBPD , rather a waif.  We were pretty happy and the final breakup took place at a point where we were the closest.

She has some property of mine that I would like to have returned among those items, the engagement ring. I took her to Europe to propose and and ran out of time before the trip so I had to buy a cheapo Sterling silver ring as a ‘stand in’ ring while her permanent one was being built….it only cost $250 but I want it back as it means a lot to me.

Here is where this gets interesting: I sent her a text message which she had replied via an attorney that does work for her employer threatening a PPO (though he doesn’t practice this type of law AND went as far as to admit that he has no case against me). She tells him she does not have the ring and I file the suit. She then goes to the cops in the city she now lives in to try to get them to compel me to DROP THE SUIT (since the lawsuit is contact, and she doesn’t want you to contact her)! The cop wanted to scare me as well and ended up admitting that I broke no law and that they would effectively do nothing so long as I was lawful.

Yesterday, the lawyer calls me back to ask for particulars about the case since his client will not accept the summons (huh?)! He further explained that he will be appearing in court to defend her….a $750 an hour lawyer is going to defend someone over a $250 ring (that she still has!).

I was under the impression that her avoidance up until this point was based upon control and avoidance of shame, which still has a stitch of truth, I feel. But I strongly now sense that her extreme avoidance is real fear, like something akin to death will happen to her if she communicates with me or, especially, sees me.  It certainly explains how she has been able to convince so many people to apply pressure on me when there is no legal case at all. She doesn’t have to act, she is REALLY afraid!

I have not really come across this at all on this forum or anywhere else. Has anyone else experienced anything similar or have an opinion on this? Is seeing me forcing her to deal with her BPD shame?


Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 11506



« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2015, 11:54:31 AM »

jrt,

she blocked your contact and you went to lengths to get around it and further contact her.

police and lawyers are now involved.

you want a gift back. youre willing to go to legal lengths over an amount totaling two hundred and fifty dollars, when the legal expenses would almost certainly be greater. i reiterate: this was a gift.

are your efforts about control and shame? are you attempting to force her to deal with her BPD shame? what is this really about?



Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2015, 11:59:36 AM »

It is not a gift in the state that I live in, its an instrument to a contract and recoverable if the contract is not fully executed. Police and lawyers do NOT have a case and have admitted this.

I am willing to sue her in small claims court to recover my property (not limited to the engagement ring). My efforts are about closure... .do you have any thoughts on HER behavior?
Logged
BorisAcusio
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 671



« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 12:57:36 PM »

Excerpt
do you have any thoughts on HER behavior?

JRT, at this point, it's really more about YOU than her.

You repeatedly disregard her wishes, breach boundaries, invade privacy, triggering engulfment fears. Her part time bad - the punitive parent living in her head - actived and now she must get away from the controlling behaviour that is threatening her very existence. I know you have the best intentions in mind but this is how it translates to her.

Excerpt
She has some property of mine that I would like to have returned among those items, the engagement ring. I took her to Europe to propose and and ran out of time before the trip so I had to buy a cheapo Sterling silver ring as a ‘stand in’ ring while her permanent one was being built….it only cost $250 but I want it back as it means a lot to me.

Are we sure that it's not an attempt to coerce her into interaction?

What you're going through is completely understandeble. Detaching is an excruciating process and people often get fixated at different stages before moving on the next phase.

Excerpt
Denial can assume many forms. Some go on pretending that the borderline is still a part of their life, even going to the extreme of "interacting" with the borderline by pretending to "communicate" with him or to "meet" him. Others develop persecutory delusions, thus incorporating the imaginary borderline into their lives as an ominous and dark presence. This ensures "her" continued "interest" in them – however malevolent and threatening that "interest" is perceived to be. These are radical denial mechanisms, which border on the psychotic and often dissolve into brief psychotic micro-episodes.

www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Vaknin26.html
Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 11506



« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 01:04:14 PM »

"do you have any thoughts on HER behavior?"

i do, jrt. her behavior includes blocking your contact, which you have not respected. it includes contacting a lawyer and police. she has repeatedly sent a message of "do not contact me". by your own admission, you circumvented her efforts. why? because... .

"My efforts are about closure"

this speaks volumes, and ill tread lightly here, because i can relate. i tried to force the exchange of things for two months. those efforts on my part were an attempt to force closure, something my ex could not give me or was unwilling to give me; something i ultimately had to give to myself. giving that up was not something that came easily for me, i assure you. when i finally did, it opened up a brand new and powerful pain. i accepted that the outcome was not something i could control, and that we cannot force another to give us closure or what closure means to us. it hurt, indescribably, but it allowed me to move forward.

i think we need to ask ourselves how far and how long we are willing to go to avoid feeling this pain; pain that we can emerge from. i cant and wont tell you what to do. you may well have legal rights, im no expert in that regard. what i can do is ask if its worth it, and what it would bring? would it solve this pain?
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 01:12:32 PM »

Were your previous contacts made in attempt to recover this property? If so, you have the legal right to file suit for recovery.  That the police would imply differently is insanity.
Logged

Learning_curve74
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1333



« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2015, 01:30:23 PM »

JRT, how many times has she called the police on you? If it is numerous times, you are setting yourself up with a pattern of harassment that could possibly be a stalking charge depending on the laws in whichever state is applicable.

If you just want the ring back, sue her in small claims court and handle everything in a businesslike manner. If you are asking more from her, she is obviously not giving it to you. Do you think pushing harder will give you better results? What has been the outcome so far?
Logged

JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2015, 01:48:17 PM »

JRT, how many times has she called the police on you? If it is numerous times, you are setting yourself up with a pattern of harassment that could possibly be a stalking charge depending on the laws in whichever state is applicable.

If you just want the ring back, sue her in small claims court and handle everything in a businesslike manner. If you are asking more from her, she is obviously not giving it to you. Do you think pushing harder will give you better results? What has been the outcome so far?

Hi LC... .She called the cops on Xmas eve when I tried to call her and when she received the summons from small claims court ... .so no, there is no pattern and between the cops and the attorney I am going to repeat, they all admitted that she had no case at all.

I really appreciate the responses, but I didn't want to know about me and what I need to do to fix me. Matter of fact, this has help me to gain some sense of empowerment over this situation; where I felt violated and impotent to do ANYTHING before, I feel that like I have a sense of control and the feeling of violation almost seems to be gone. This has been the best thing that I did as it relates to this situation.

I want to state my question again: What does she fear? What is causing this behavior? Or is it not fear at all but power and punishment? Anyone?
Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2015, 01:55:18 PM »

I don't have a whole lot of experience with this as mine was mainly angry and punitive, but I think she feels afraid.
Logged

joeramabeme
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: In process of divorcing
Posts: 995



« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2015, 02:00:03 PM »

I was under the impression that her avoidance up until this point was based upon control and avoidance of shame, which still has a stitch of truth, I feel. But I strongly now sense that her extreme avoidance is real fear, like something akin to death will happen to her if she communicates with me or, especially, sees me.  It certainly explains how she has been able to convince so many people to apply pressure on me when there is no legal case at all. She doesn’t have to act, she is REALLY afraid!

Control, Avoidance, Shame or Fear: I know they are not the same but will lump them into one category - Self Defense.  She is defending herself.  Very likely from a fragile and underdeveloped sense of self that cannot look in the mirror; which is exactly what you represent, a mirror of her actions, thoughts, feelings and confusion.  You have come to symbolize her disorder.  What she is unable to look at inside herself has now been manifest as you.  I think this is what we call "painted Black". 

You are not really the problem, just her manifestation of it.  Sorry to say there is nothing you can do to change her perceptions of you because she is unable to see you in the present moment.


I have not really come across this at all on this forum or anywhere else. Has anyone else experienced anything similar or have an opinion on this? Is seeing me forcing her to deal with her BPD shame?

Yes, I have.  Toward the end, my wife became afraid of me for no apparent reason.  She could not explain it to me when I asked about it and would not look closer at it.  She wanted out and was more desperate to get out as the days went by even though I am pretty sure there is no one that she is running to.  I believe I had become the manifestation of her ineffable internal unresolved emotional stew. 

Is seeing me forcing her to deal with her BPD shame?

Seeing you is not forcing her to deal with anything, it is scaring the sh!t out of her and she is really clear with you, don't come any closer. 

You have every right to expect and want to see her.  Every right to be upset, hurt, confused, lost etc.  But none of that changes her feelings.  Further confounding this matter is that she already probably knows or has a strong sense of how you feel.  This only compounds the issue for her.

I decided awhile back that I would not coerce my 2bx in anyway to see me, comfort me, get closure with me etc.  Instead, I would just try and be a friend the best I could in any way that she would/could handle and that would not hurt me or her.  That does not leave too many options. 

I was married for 10 years, so I can feel your pain.  It is jarring, jolting, disorienting, painful and more.  No one can understand it who hasnt been through it. 

Once Removed said it well; the sooner you can start to accept this the sooner YOU will be free to move on.  Yes, I know that is not what you want to hear and I wished it were different for you.  But the more you force your will on her the further away she will go.  That does not imply that she will come running to you if you do not impose yourself either, as you have learned over the last 11 months.   

Hang in there.  Consider whether getting your ring is really worth having to emotionally relive this painful event over and over.  Perhaps have a ceremony with a close friend were you can grieve the loss of someone you felt so much for.

Keep posting.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2015, 02:21:19 PM »

Thanks for your post Joe (and a nice cherry sunburst that you have there!)... .

That made a lot of sense to me and in general... .I really thought that 11 months would have have served to clear the air a bit where we could talk or at least return property... .seeing how galvanized that she remains gives me a sense that this will never happen... .I have been dating since January and still have some feeling to work out no doubt... .among them, taking her to court has had a monumental positive impact on what little I have left to work on but I was not prepared for how stubbornly she is maintaining her posture... .Meh! That's her problem ... .I am just curious to know whats underneath the hood.

Logged
Mutt
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced Oct 2015
Posts: 10278



WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2015, 04:32:22 PM »

Hi JRT,

You got good advice. I wanted to give you advice. Negative attention is still attention if you were to go to court. I agree that's her problem, shift that attention to the person you've been seeing since January.
Logged

"Let go or be dragged" -Zen proverb
HappyNihilist
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1013



WWW
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2015, 04:45:41 PM »

JRT, I'm sorry you're struggling with this.   It's hard to detach and find closure.

Her extreme avoidance behaviors after the breakup mean this - she does not want to have contact with you.

Does it really matter what the reason might be? It doesn't change the situation at all.

Sometimes we focus all our attention on trying to analyze details, rather than stepping back and seeing the big picture.

She is an adult human being, who has the right to decide not to talk to someone. No matter her reasons. You may not agree with, understand, or even know her reasons - that doesn't change her decision.

Circumventing her attempts to avoid contact is not an action that shows respect for her decisions and boundaries. This is in no way saying that you are disrespectful - just that some of the actions don't exhibit respect. Instead they say, "I know what is better for you than you do." No adult, BPD or not, likes to hear that.

Unfortunately, often we can only give ourselves closure after relationships like this. Relying on an ex, especially one with BPD or BPD traits, to provide closure is an exercise in futility. What do you think you might be able to do to give yourself closure and find peace?
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2015, 05:02:12 PM »

JRT, I'm sorry you're struggling with this.   It's hard to detach and find closure.

Her extreme avoidance behaviors after the breakup mean this - she does not want to have contact with you.

Does it really matter what the reason might be? It doesn't change the situation at all.

Sometimes we focus all our attention on trying to analyze details, rather than stepping back and seeing the big picture.

She is an adult human being, who has the right to decide not to talk to someone. No matter her reasons. You may not agree with, understand, or even know her reasons - that doesn't change her decision.

Circumventing her attempts to avoid contact is not an action that shows respect for her decisions and boundaries. This is in no way saying that you are disrespectful - just that some of the actions don't exhibit respect. Instead they say, "I know what is better for you than you do." No adult, BPD or not, likes to hear that.

Unfortunately, often we can only give ourselves closure after relationships like this. Relying on an ex, especially one with BPD or BPD traits, to provide closure is an exercise in futility. What do you think you might be able to do to give yourself closure and find peace?

I am not struggling with this... .just trying to understand... .do you have perspective regarding her behavior? I am good with my behavior.
Logged
HappyNihilist
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1013



WWW
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2015, 05:20:44 PM »

do you have perspective regarding her behavior?

I did give my perspective on her behavior - that she does not want to have contact. Beyond that, only she knows for sure. But her message is clear.

She may be stuck in a place where she can't get down to a 'safe' emotional baseline. For instance, if she did run away because of extreme fears (abandonment, engulfment, whatever) - and contact or attempted contact from you triggers her fears - then it may be that she's been unable to 'regulate' because she keeps being triggered again before she's able to process through the previous trigger. Sometimes we can inadvertently trigger and keep triggering someone's fears with what we see as caring or even neutral actions.

The problem comes when we keep triggering them - even when we realize that we are - because we feel that our needs/fears/etc. are more important or valid than theirs.
Logged
joeramabeme
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: In process of divorcing
Posts: 995



« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2015, 05:26:55 PM »

I am not struggling with this... .just trying to understand... ..do you have perspective regarding her behavior? I am good with my behavior.

JRT - The best thing I have heard to date, and it is not so nice, in regards to your question is; "Thank God you can't understand crazy".  You are not going to "get it".  And it is very likely that she only understands parts of it, else she would just tell you.

If you need a framework to put it in, think of it this way.  She has emotional triggers buried inside her that even she is not aware of.  They are like landmines hidden below the top soil.  Suddenly you walk on one and BOOM you have been deeply injured.  That is what happened.  

Your questions sounds like; who put the mine there, why was it put there and what do I do about it.  They are good questions to ask so that you do not walk on another mine but serve little purpose in understanding what has happened and what must be done to recover.  How and why is beyond what can be understood, at least for today.

So, I think what people are trying to say here is, you cannot figure out why but, figure out what happened (I stepped on a mine) and how not to do it again (for example, I will be more aware of when I am walking where there are mines).

Perhaps not a great analogy but then again, none of the pain we are dealing with is dealt easily with words, rather, caring and kind thoughts for each of our well beings, like the ones being sent to you.  
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2015, 05:46:09 PM »

@HN... .thanks! That helps

@Joe... .how and why is precisely what I am looking for... .sure, perhaps I cannot find it or it is something that cannot be answered, I am ok with that. What I was REALLY hoping for is to see if someone else had a similar experience and learn from their observations and perspective. If there was no one, or if it is unanswerable, I am good with that too!
Logged
joeramabeme
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: In process of divorcing
Posts: 995



« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2015, 06:03:50 PM »

@HN... .thanks! That helps

@Joe... .how and why is precisely what I am looking for... .sure, perhaps I cannot find it or it is something that cannot be answered, I am ok with that. What I was REALLY hoping for is to see if someone else had a similar experience and learn from their observations and perspective. If there was no one, or if it is unanswerable, I am good with that too!

YES!  I went through this exact thing.  Many of us did. 

Here are more of my details.  My wife and I were supposed to buy a house and have a child.  We house shopped for 10 years, literally!  We finally found the perfect home and she would not make an offer on it. 

I was very loving and gentle with her even though I felt like I was living in a surreal fantasy.  Shortly after this, she said, let's go look at more homes.  We got out our spreadsheet and she wanted to dictate the conversation.  I got pissed and yelled at her.  She walked up stairs and closed the bedroom door and for 3 months did not talk or interact with me.  When she came back out she said I want a divorce.  What the heck!  I asked why, she said that our last argument was the straw that broke the camels back and she was not happy.  I suggested separation with reconciliation to which she said no. 

I have had multiple occasions to ask her WHY. She told me she was simply not happy. That's it!  Don't you think I have some unanswered questions like yours?  Of course I do.  Yet I have no more answers to the questions than you.  I have gone back in my mind and traced out a more coherent image of what was going on in the marriage that preceded this breakdown.  But at best, I have theories.  She will not talk with me, has moved out and will not tell me her new address.

JRT, are you hearing this?  The circumstances of the story are different, but the emotional dynamic is identical.  My perspective is that she has hidden triggers from unresolved emotional harms done to her as a child.  Our intimacy brought her close to those fears and I became the representation of it.  Her only way to stay safe from her internal hurt is to create separation.  For her there is confusion and a need to appear all together from the outside.  It looks like she is running away from me, but it is probably more accurate that she is running away from herself and this has little to do with me directly other than I was involved with her.

It is not that the question is unanswerable it is that the answer lies within the other person.  We can speculate and try to understand with whatever information we have but at the end of the day it is just that, speculation.  Your peace will come from within you.  What others here are saying, get your own inner peace and these questions will not bother you to the measure they presently do. 

Where do you want to be 11 months from now?  Wondering what she is thinking? 
Logged
JohnnyShoes
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 166



« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2015, 06:19:19 PM »

Cut your losses.

You will NOT feel better going down this road.

From what you've already experienced... .there's no hint that she has any remaining interest in seeing or hearing from you... .

It would be wise to just let it drop from your hands... .you feel better that you did.

Be the bigger person here... .let her leave.
Logged
Herodias
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1787


« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2015, 07:15:46 PM »

I would think if she took any of your belongings that were of great value, it may be worth pursuing... .a ring is usually considered a gift. My styx husband actually keeps his in his car which bothers his girlfriend. I think he likes it as a reminder of me/us. Maybe yours is doing the same. If I were you I would let her have that reminder and leave her be... .you are just creating drama and if you leave her be, she may actually eventually talk to you. It's that hardest thing to do, believe me! I am out after 8 years of my life trying to "help" this person I loved very much, who just decide he didn't want to be with me anymore. I knew too much about him and he had done too many shameful things to me that he couldn't face me anymore. None of it really makes sense to me.  Sometimes he wants me to take him back, yet I don't agree to it, because I know it only gets worse if I were to. I am not even sure he really means it.Just testing me. Sorry for your situation... .we are all in the same boat here... .listen and your pain will be understood and eased with your decisions to help  yourself. Time does't heal these relationships... .only working on yourself and moving away from them does.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2015, 11:38:34 PM »

@Joe... .thanks for sharing that story, I really appreciate it and am very sorry that you had to got through that... .I know the pain as it is similar to that story.

I guess I should have worded my question differently as I got more advice of what I should do and what might be wrong with me than answers regarding what is propelling her actions. While the advice is not unvaluable and very much appreciated, it doesn't give me insight into her behavior which profoundly helps me to better understand her behavior and the situation and has been the primary method for my healing. I might rephrase the question on another thread in the future.

My state is a state in which engagements rings are instruments to contracts; if the contract is not executed, the ring is recoverable.

This incident has made me feel powerless and imprisoned. Suing her for her ring (and the associated hi-jinx from her incompetent attorney and her quixotic plea to the local cops) has been the best thing that I have done during this entire sordid mess. I simply don't see how doing nothing nothing and 'respecting her boundaries' restores a sense of control and empowerment over a situation that was lost by what she had done, maybe I have 'issues'. I couldn't think of a better epilogue to this story.

Logged
Sunfl0wer
`
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: He moved out mid March
Posts: 2583



« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2015, 11:52:30 PM »

Excerpt
empowerment over a situation

Is it possible that you may feel even more empowered when you do not rely on another person's behaviors or actions to feel that way? 

Logged

How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself.~Anais Nin
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2015, 01:14:47 AM »

Excerpt
empowerment over a situation

Is it possible that you may feel even more empowered when you do not rely on another person's behaviors or actions to feel that way? 

This approach didn't work for 11 months. The approach that I took was immediate. So, no... .
Logged
blissful_camper
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 611



« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2015, 01:35:21 AM »

What I'm hearing is that by taking action, JRT is instilled with a sense of empowerment. Is that correct, JRT?  

Does it matter, then, how this plays out?  (Retrieving the ring or not)

Are you okay leaving it where it stands which is your taking action and feeling empowered by that action?

To me it sounds as though asserting yourself is what made you feel empowered.   Did you assert yourself during the relationship?

Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2015, 01:48:14 AM »

What I'm hearing is that by taking action, JRT is instilled with a sense of empowerment. Is that correct, JRT?  

Does it matter, then, how this plays out?  (Retrieving the ring or not)

Are you okay leaving it where it stands which is your taking action and feeling empowered by that action?

To me it sounds as though asserting yourself is what made you feel empowered.   Did you assert yourself during the relationship?

I think that you are getting it BC... .of course I was assertive during our r/s... .definitely in a healthy way... .it was the way that the breakup happened that made me feel violated and powerless... .suing for the ring (which I will follow through), of which I have the right restores my sense of empowerment ... .retrieving the ring will absolutely matter as it close the loop on the action
Logged
blissful_camper
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 611



« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2015, 01:59:35 AM »

What I'm hearing is that by taking action, JRT is instilled with a sense of empowerment. Is that correct, JRT?  

Does it matter, then, how this plays out?  (Retrieving the ring or not)

Are you okay leaving it where it stands which is your taking action and feeling empowered by that action?

To me it sounds as though asserting yourself is what made you feel empowered.   Did you assert yourself during the relationship?

I think that you are getting it BC... .of course I was assertive during our r/s... .definitely in a healthy way... .it was the way that the breakup happened that made me feel violated and powerless... .suing for the ring (which I will follow through), of which I have the right restores my sense of empowerment ... .retrieving the ring will absolutely matter as it close the loop on the action

Okay. I get it.

I'm baffled as to why she's keeping the ring since she essentially called off the engagement. State laws or no, I wouldn't feel comfortable hanging onto an engagement ring under those circumstances.

Was this her first engagement?
Logged
lm911
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 189


« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2015, 07:28:01 AM »

JRT,

Get out of the FOG!

What is happening is that you felt obligation to contact her to make closure, now most of the users here acuse you of continue to contact her although she said not to and had blocked you. Meaning that now you are suppose to feel guilty! But you are not guilty! Change the focus from her to yourself, change your thoughts and stop trying to contact her in order to stop the feelings of fear,obligation, guilt.

It is a good idea to read the book Stop Caretaking Borderline. It is a very good book.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2015, 10:11:42 AM »

What I'm hearing is that by taking action, JRT is instilled with a sense of empowerment. Is that correct, JRT?  

Does it matter, then, how this plays out?  (Retrieving the ring or not)

Are you okay leaving it where it stands which is your taking action and feeling empowered by that action?

To me it sounds as though asserting yourself is what made you feel empowered.   Did you assert yourself during the relationship?

I think that you are getting it BC... .of course I was assertive during our r/s... .definitely in a healthy way... .it was the way that the breakup happened that made me feel violated and powerless... .suing for the ring (which I will follow through), of which I have the right restores my sense of empowerment ... .retrieving the ring will absolutely matter as it close the loop on the action

Okay. I get it.

I'm baffled as to why she's keeping the ring since she essentially called off the engagement. State laws or no, I wouldn't feel comfortable hanging onto an engagement ring under those circumstances.

Was this her first engagement?

I also felt that it was odd (she took mushy greeting cards off the fridge too with her that she sent me), she told the attorney that she left the ring where she clearly did not.

This is her third engagement. She was married once (for 8 months) and broke up with a long distance relationship after a 5 month relationship as that man was 'controlling'.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2015, 10:13:44 AM »

JRT,

Get out of the FOG!

What is happening is that you felt obligation to contact her to make closure, now most of the users here acuse you of continue to contact her although she said not to and had blocked you. Meaning that now you are suppose to feel guilty! But you are not guilty! Change the focus from her to yourself, change your thoughts and stop trying to contact her in order to stop the feelings of fear,obligation, guilt.

It is a good idea to read the book Stop Caretaking Borderline. It is a very good book.

Thanks for your advice, it was nice for you to provide it. Do you have any perspective as to her avoidance and what is causing it? Did you have a partner that behaved like this?
Logged
lm911
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 189


« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2015, 11:34:49 AM »

JRT,

Get out of the FOG!

What is happening is that you felt obligation to contact her to make closure, now most of the users here acuse you of continue to contact her although she said not to and had blocked you. Meaning that now you are suppose to feel guilty! But you are not guilty! Change the focus from her to yourself, change your thoughts and stop trying to contact her in order to stop the feelings of fear,obligation, guilt.

It is a good idea to read the book Stop Caretaking Borderline. It is a very good book.

Thanks for your advice, it was nice for you to provide it. Do you have any perspective as to her avoidance and what is causing it? Did you have a partner that behaved like this?

I have the same issue, mine is avoiding me like a mouse from a cat. If she sees me, she runs. I am blocked from everywhere and I am blamed for this happening. Here is a quote why she is running and why you are painted black:

"It might help to realize that the reason this is happening is because pwBPD are triggered by emotional intimacy.  Without a significant degree of emotional intimacy the disorder would never be triggered.  It may be hard to accept, but your gf is running away because she is so close to you.  That doesn't make rational sense - it can only be understood without the mindset of the disorder.  It is very real for her, however, and it's important to remember that.  This is her reality and the only one she knows.  It's also important to realize that you are a trigger right now.  This is not your fault.  There is nothing that you did to cause this.  It's not because you aren't good enough.  It's not because of anything you did or didn't do.  This is just the disorder at work.  Being a trigger, however, means that it is very hard for your gf to have contact with you because it is stirring up overwhelming emotions.  She doesn't have the ability to self soothe"
Logged
Learning_curve74
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1333



« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2015, 12:25:20 PM »

do you have perspective regarding her behavior?

I did give my perspective on her behavior - that she does not want to have contact. Beyond that, only she knows for sure.

HappyNihilist hits the nail on the head. Nobody except her knows why she is doing what she is doing, and even then there's a chance she doesn't even know why she is doing it because it may just be a typical emotional response for her in these types of stressful situations. Whatever the root emotions involved, you know that this is her coping strategy in this instance.

After my exgf and I called it quits, she sent me a couple things on social media but it's been silence ever since. I still have some of her stuff from when we separated our household, but some is in boxes some mixed in with mine, so I haven't gotten around to asking her to pick that stuff up. So I guess it's mutual, though it doesn't bother me. Everybody is different, I know she was paranoid and afraid of her exbf before me (they parted on very bad terms, supposedly violence involved), but I believe she is simply too ashamed as well as afraid of bringing up extremely sad feelings to contact me (we split on fairly friendly terms). But these are all just conjecture on my part.

JRT, it's good that you feel like you're taking control and being active by suing her, that's positive. However, it's also good to look down the line because you won't be able to tell what will happen after that. You may win but then she can still ignore the judgement, then what happens: are you then going to garnish her wages or put a lien on her property? That may be perfectly fine for you especially if you are dispassionate about it. However, to outside observers like the forumites here, it sounds like a lack of detachment which is why you got a lot of advice instead of simply insight behind her actions. Which is cool -- everybody has their own path, hopefully yours is a one that leads to better days! 
Logged

BorisAcusio
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 671



« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2015, 01:45:42 PM »

JRT, it's good that you feel like you're taking control and being active by suing her, that's positive. However, it's also good to look down the line because you won't be able to tell what will happen after that. You may win but then she can still ignore the judgement, then what happens: are you then going to garnish her wages or put a lien on her property?

It's certainly worth considering. Just as Once Removed, I ignored my better judgement and tried to retrieve some miscellanous stuff that could be easily replaced. Only sent out one guilt inducing email, 9 months later still having deep shame and regret about that. It wasn't about items, but a desperate passive aggressive attempt to regain some control.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2015, 03:47:44 PM »

JRT,

Get out of the FOG!

What is happening is that you felt obligation to contact her to make closure, now most of the users here acuse you of continue to contact her although she said not to and had blocked you. Meaning that now you are suppose to feel guilty! But you are not guilty! Change the focus from her to yourself, change your thoughts and stop trying to contact her in order to stop the feelings of fear,obligation, guilt.

It is a good idea to read the book Stop Caretaking Borderline. It is a very good book.

Thanks for your advice, it was nice for you to provide it. Do you have any perspective as to her avoidance and what is causing it? Did you have a partner that behaved like this?

I have the same issue, mine is avoiding me like a mouse from a cat. If she sees me, she runs. I am blocked from everywhere and I am blamed for this happening. Here is a quote why she is running and why you are painted black:

"It might help to realize that the reason this is happening is because pwBPD are triggered by emotional intimacy.  Without a significant degree of emotional intimacy the disorder would never be triggered.  It may be hard to accept, but your gf is running away because she is so close to you.  That doesn't make rational sense - it can only be understood without the mindset of the disorder.  It is very real for her, however, and it's important to remember that.  This is her reality and the only one she knows.  It's also important to realize that you are a trigger right now.  This is not your fault.  There is nothing that you did to cause this.  It's not because you aren't good enough.  It's not because of anything you did or didn't do.  This is just the disorder at work.  Being a trigger, however, means that it is very hard for your gf to have contact with you because it is stirring up overwhelming emotions.  She doesn't have the ability to self soothe"

LM, thanks you so very much... .this is the kind of thing that I was looking for... .sorry to hear that this also happened to you... .I would also venture to guess that the greater amount of emotional intimacy that was shared, the more radical and extreme the cutoff? The cutoff was proportional? I wish I knew a bit about your back story.

Its sad this disorder where it sounds like your (and my) relationship could have had the potential to result in a happy lifetime for you and her. In reality, pain and confusion instead.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2015, 03:57:56 PM »

do you have perspective regarding her behavior?

I did give my perspective on her behavior - that she does not want to have contact. Beyond that, only she knows for sure.

HappyNihilist hits the nail on the head. Nobody except her knows why she is doing what she is doing, and even then there's a chance she doesn't even know why she is doing it because it may just be a typical emotional response for her in these types of stressful situations. Whatever the root emotions involved, you know that this is her coping strategy in this instance.

After my exgf and I called it quits, she sent me a couple things on social media but it's been silence ever since. I still have some of her stuff from when we separated our household, but some is in boxes some mixed in with mine, so I haven't gotten around to asking her to pick that stuff up. So I guess it's mutual, though it doesn't bother me. Everybody is different, I know she was paranoid and afraid of her exbf before me (they parted on very bad terms, supposedly violence involved), but I believe she is simply too ashamed as well as afraid of bringing up extremely sad feelings to contact me (we split on fairly friendly terms). But these are all just conjecture on my part.

JRT, it's good that you feel like you're taking control and being active by suing her, that's positive. However, it's also good to look down the line because you won't be able to tell what will happen after that. You may win but then she can still ignore the judgement, then what happens: are you then going to garnish her wages or put a lien on her property? That may be perfectly fine for you especially if you are dispassionate about it. However, to outside observers like the forumites here, it sounds like a lack of detachment which is why you got a lot of advice instead of simply insight behind her actions. Which is cool -- everybody has their own path, hopefully yours is a one that leads to better days! 

I really wanted to thank you for your perspective on this, your situation shares some similarities to mine. I think that you are 100% correct, we all have our own path and mine seems to not conform to the standard. I have never been a victim or felt powerless ever in my life; the wake of this relationship resulted in exactly this. Its a REALLY sh***y feeling I have to tell you. I can't imagine the feeling of being raped but it would have to guess that it is similar. Taking control and doing something proactive was a HUGE step for me in regaining that control and sense of power (especially having the police and the lawyer admit to me candidly that they had no case against me), I realized that much of this was about power and much of hers was lost due to my proactivity.

The ring meant a lot to me and I want it returned. I am fully within my rights and entirely reasonable to ask for its return. So, yes, if she does not return it should the judgment be rendered in my favor, I will absolutely seek whatever legal remedy available to me in order to secure its return. That will be another victory for me. At this point, I really don't care what she thinks. 
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2015, 04:00:21 PM »

JRT, it's good that you feel like you're taking control and being active by suing her, that's positive. However, it's also good to look down the line because you won't be able to tell what will happen after that. You may win but then she can still ignore the judgement, then what happens: are you then going to garnish her wages or put a lien on her property?

It's certainly worth considering. Just as Once Removed, I ignored my better judgement and tried to retrieve some miscellanous stuff that could be easily replaced. Only sent out one guilt inducing email, 9 months later still having deep shame and regret about that. It wasn't about items, but a desperate passive aggressive attempt to regain some control.

Boris... .I don't understand... .if the stuff was your property and she was not willing to return them, why would you regret having exercised your right to have you things returned to you and be ashamed? This didn't result in some sense of empowerment for you? You got your stuff back.
Logged
Loosestrife
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 612



« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2015, 04:16:57 PM »

Is the ring worth more than your sanity or your freedom? Does it really mean a lot to you? Just some thoughts... .
Logged
LimboFL
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 330


« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2015, 04:37:27 PM »

JRT, you and I have written together before, so hopefully my comments here are going to be taken the right way.

Based on the very strong emotions you are exhibiting in your posts, the way I see things is that you are scaring the crap out of her, as would probably be the case for any woman facing what you have been delivering.

You say that the ring is very dear to you but you make a very strong point of explaining how the act of getting the ring back is giving you a sense of regaining you power, after she robbed it from you. Which is most important and the way I see it, all of the emotions that you are expending now in fact means that she continues to have power over you. You are going through an incredible amount of extra "work" that you wouldn't do if it wasn't for her. So is this really empowering you?

I tell what has made me feel empowered, it is that no matter how much I miss the part of her that I do, I have not reached out to her and my last communication was a, I love you but please never contact me again. That was taking back my power, after she reached out to me. By going silent I made her think about me and to my complete surprise she did try to reach out to me and that is when I calmly sent a message back saying, "no more".

I mean this with the utmost respect, with a reminder that I was deeply in love with my ex, we lived together for 4 years and she chased a replacement. I was as angry as you are. I had to let go of it or it would drive me insane. All I hear in you is anger and confusion. You want answers as to why, but you have been on here long enough to know that there aren't any answers. No one here can tell you what you want to hear.

By chasing that ring, all you are doing is prolonging that anger. I am pretty certain that if and when you get that ring back it isn't going to feel as empowering as you think it will. It will probably feel pretty hollow. The most empowering thing you can do, IMHO is to regain control and let go of the hope of ever getting the answers you want. Your original question speak to you actually being hurt by her fear and avoidance but maybe if you pull back and allow the situation some space and breathing room, she might eventually lose that fear and avoidance.

In my view, given everything that has transpired so far, the MOST empowering thing you can do that will throw her off, is to completely back off. Go radio silent, do not pursue the ring or the lawyer, just suddenly fall of the face of her earth. If you give her space to actually think, then it is very possible that she will start to think about what caused you to react the way you are and she could end up feeling guilty and simply giving you the ring back. You shouldn't expect it in a week or even a month and if you don't get it, start up again, but rather you should just back off indefinitely. THIS IS HOW you take back control.

I hope I made sense and didn't offend. It is meant to be caring and helpful, not accusatory or demeaning. I know the pain you are going through and the anger. I have been there and to a degree still am. The reason we are all here is because we know.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2015, 05:15:41 PM »

Is the ring worth more than your sanity or your freedom? Does it really mean a lot to you? Just some thoughts... .

Getting the ring back will lead to insanity?

Yes... .DOUBLE yes, it IS worth that much to me and getting it back is worth even more.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2015, 05:21:52 PM »

JRT, you and I have written together before, so hopefully my comments here are going to be taken the right way.

Based on the very strong emotions you are exhibiting in your posts, the way I see things is that you are scaring the crap out of her, as would probably be the case for any woman facing what you have been delivering.

You say that the ring is very dear to you but you make a very strong point of explaining how the act of getting the ring back is giving you a sense of regaining you power, after she robbed it from you. Which is most important and the way I see it, all of the emotions that you are expending now in fact means that she continues to have power over you. You are going through an incredible amount of extra "work" that you wouldn't do if it wasn't for her. So is this really empowering you?

I tell what has made me feel empowered, it is that no matter how much I miss the part of her that I do, I have not reached out to her and my last communication was a, I love you but please never contact me again. That was taking back my power, after she reached out to me. By going silent I made her think about me and to my complete surprise she did try to reach out to me and that is when I calmly sent a message back saying, "no more".

I mean this with the utmost respect, with a reminder that I was deeply in love with my ex, we lived together for 4 years and she chased a replacement. I was as angry as you are. I had to let go of it or it would drive me insane. All I hear in you is anger and confusion. You want answers as to why, but you have been on here long enough to know that there aren't any answers. No one here can tell you what you want to hear.

By chasing that ring, all you are doing is prolonging that anger. I am pretty certain that if and when you get that ring back it isn't going to feel as empowering as you think it will. It will probably feel pretty hollow. The most empowering thing you can do, IMHO is to regain control and let go of the hope of ever getting the answers you want. Your original question speak to you actually being hurt by her fear and avoidance but maybe if you pull back and allow the situation some space and breathing room, she might eventually lose that fear and avoidance.

In my view, given everything that has transpired so far, the MOST empowering thing you can do that will throw her off, is to completely back off. Go radio silent, do not pursue the ring or the lawyer, just suddenly fall of the face of her earth. If you give her space to actually think, then it is very possible that she will start to think about what caused you to react the way you are and she could end up feeling guilty and simply giving you the ring back. You shouldn't expect it in a week or even a month and if you don't get it, start up again, but rather you should just back off indefinitely. THIS IS HOW you take back control.

I hope I made sense and didn't offend. It is meant to be caring and helpful, not accusatory or demeaning. I know the pain you are going through and the anger. I have been there and to a degree still am. The reason we are all here is because we know.

I REALLY appreciate your post and don't take it the wrong way at all.

I do not feel angry at all... .she DID have power over me (some) until I filed that lawsuit... .even less when she went to the cops to see if they could stop the lawsuit (since it was 'contact'... .even though there was no legal instrument in place to prevent contact)... .I now see her as pathetic and desperate, not imposing and empowered... .

The path to closure is different for everyone... .this is the path that I decided upon... .candidly, the 'just take it on the chin' approach has NEVER worked for me and didn't in this case for 11 months... .maybe that makes me bad... .or maybe, its something to think about for others in a similar situation. I can tell you this; I am almost back to 100% right now thanks to my actions last week.

Thanks again for your post, it gave me much to consider.
Logged
KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2015, 05:49:18 PM »

Is the ring worth more than your sanity or your freedom? Does it really mean a lot to you? Just some thoughts... .

Getting the ring back will lead to insanity?

Yes... .DOUBLE yes, it IS worth that much to me and getting it back is worth even more.

I can't help but be reminded of Lord of the Rings here. I apologize for that.

JRT, I'm sorry you're struggling so badly. Do you have a counselor to speak to?
Logged
HappyNihilist
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1013



WWW
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2015, 05:55:19 PM »

I definitely understand the need to feel empowered after emotional devastation. 

I just wonder that maybe this move won't end up making you feel truly empowered. Like LimboFL said, I think it may feel hollow instead. Empowerment comes from within - you have everything already within you to find it. You don't need to let your sense of power be defined in any way by your ex and your relationship.

I hope you take LimboFL's very insightful post to heart.

You say that the ring is very dear to you but you make a very strong point of explaining how the act of getting the ring back is giving you a sense of regaining you power, after she robbed it from you. Which is most important and the way I see it, all of the emotions that you are expending now in fact means that she continues to have power over you. You are going through an incredible amount of extra "work" that you wouldn't do if it wasn't for her. So is this really empowering you?

I simply don't see how doing nothing nothing and 'respecting her boundaries' restores a sense of control and empowerment over a situation that was lost by what she had done

It sucks feeling powerless and helpless. Radical acceptance can help a lot with this. You can't control the situation. Any situation. There's very little that we have control over: what we say and what we do. We can try to influence situations with our actions/words, but we can't control them. Believing that we can somehow control them makes us feel devastated and powerless when we're confronted with a serious situation that we can't influence to go the way we think it should, no matter what we do.

Accepting that there are only two things we can control in this great big world, and letting go of the need for control - that is empowering and freeing.

Mutt's signature is a Zen proverb - "Let go or be dragged."

Do you believe that her boundaries are less valid than your need for control? Is your need for empowerment causing you to act in ways that are contrary to your values? If so, then that isn't being true to You. Being true to yourself and your values is empowering.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

However, to outside observers like the forumites here, it sounds like a lack of detachment which is why you got a lot of advice instead of simply insight behind her actions. Which is cool -- everybody has their own path, hopefully yours is a one that leads to better days

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2015, 06:57:46 PM »

Is the ring worth more than your sanity or your freedom? Does it really mean a lot to you? Just some thoughts... .

Getting the ring back will lead to insanity?

Yes... .DOUBLE yes, it IS worth that much to me and getting it back is worth even more.

I can't help but be reminded of Lord of the Rings here. I apologize for that.

JRT, I'm sorry you're struggling so badly. Do you have a counselor to speak to?

But I am NOT struggling so badly, but thanks. I feel GREAT! This was the best thing that I have done.

Lord of the Rings?
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2015, 07:03:49 PM »

I definitely understand the need to feel empowered after emotional devastation. 

I just wonder that maybe this move won't end up making you feel truly empowered. Like LimboFL said, I think it may feel hollow instead. Empowerment comes from within - you have everything already within you to find it. You don't need to let your sense of power be defined in any way by your ex and your relationship.

I hope you take LimboFL's very insightful post to heart.

You say that the ring is very dear to you but you make a very strong point of explaining how the act of getting the ring back is giving you a sense of regaining you power, after she robbed it from you. Which is most important and the way I see it, all of the emotions that you are expending now in fact means that she continues to have power over you. You are going through an incredible amount of extra "work" that you wouldn't do if it wasn't for her. So is this really empowering you?

I simply don't see how doing nothing nothing and 'respecting her boundaries' restores a sense of control and empowerment over a situation that was lost by what she had done

It sucks feeling powerless and helpless. Radical acceptance can help a lot with this. You can't control the situation. Any situation. There's very little that we have control over: what we say and what we do. We can try to influence situations with our actions/words, but we can't control them. Believing that we can somehow control them makes us feel devastated and powerless when we're confronted with a serious situation that we can't influence to go the way we think it should, no matter what we do.

Accepting that there are only two things we can control in this great big world, and letting go of the need for control - that is empowering and freeing.

Mutt's signature is a Zen proverb - "Let go or be dragged."

Do you believe that her boundaries are less valid than your need for control? Is your need for empowerment causing you to act in ways that are contrary to your values? If so, then that isn't being true to You. Being true to yourself and your values is empowering.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

However, to outside observers like the forumites here, it sounds like a lack of detachment which is why you got a lot of advice instead of simply insight behind her actions. Which is cool -- everybody has their own path, hopefully yours is a one that leads to better days

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Thanks for your thoughts on this again HN... .again, I was looking for a perspective one why my ex did what she did but it looks like this was translated into 'let me give you a piece of advice' in stead. I think that I had one or two replies that spoke to my question.

But I will tell you this: I filed that lawsuit last Friday and it does NOT make me feel empty... .I feel really wonderful. I will feel even better if she shows up. Even better than that if I get the ring back. I CAN control this situation and am doing that right now with this: she has something of mine, I want it back, she won't talk to me enough to give it back, she will have to answer in court and THEN give that thing back. If she does not give it back, the force of law will take over and compel her by seizure to return it. Do you see: empowerment does not come from within?

Again: the BEST thing that I have ever done in this situation hands down. IT worked very nicely for me... .I hope that others in the same situation might do this and benefit as well.
Logged
HappyNihilist
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1013



WWW
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2015, 07:35:31 PM »

She has kept something that you would like back. You haven't been able to talk to her to ask for it back. You see taking this action as the most positive thing you've done since the breakup.

You feel like getting the ring back will help you find closure. Closure is good.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I hope it works out well for you. You deserve to find peace after the turmoil.

I am wondering about this, though.

Do you believe that her boundaries are less valid than your need for control?

Logged
blissful_camper
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 611



« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2015, 10:28:33 PM »

JRT, you may find good reading in this article: www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/idiot-compassion
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2015, 01:12:46 AM »

She has kept something that you would like back. You haven't been able to talk to her to ask for it back. You see taking this action as the most positive thing you've done since the breakup. Not necessarily positive, but productive... .necessary... .fruitful. Yes, very much so.

You feel like getting the ring back will help you find closure. Closure is good.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I hope it works out well for you. You deserve to find peace after the turmoil.

I am wondering about this, though.

Do you believe that her boundaries are less valid than your need for control?


I am entirely unconcerned about her boundaries at this point, I just want my stuff back. Should I be?
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2015, 01:15:32 AM »

JRT, you may find good reading in this article: www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/idiot-compassion

Thanks BC... .are you arguing that I practice true compassion?
Logged
Loosestrife
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 612



« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2015, 03:49:58 AM »

Is the ring worth more than your sanity or your freedom? Does it really mean a lot to you? Just some thoughts... .

Getting the ring back will lead to insanity?

Yes... .DOUBLE yes, it IS worth that much to me and getting it back is worth even more.

I meant in the amount of time, energy emotion you are still using up pursuing this
Logged
jhkbuzz
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1639



« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2015, 07:11:36 AM »

It is not that the question is unanswerable it is that the answer lies within the other person.

Or not.

What struck me about my ex as just prior to our breakup was that she didn't have a coherent answer to many of the things I asked her. I really believe she was trying to honestly answer my questions because we were still talking about trying to work things out. She just didn't know why she did what she did at certain times. She was often perplexed by her own behavior, especially when she looked back on it.

There was one time I insisted on an answer and she started to become unhinged - I could see it in her eyes - and I pulled back in one hell of a hurry. I finally realized that if I continually demanded answers to questions that she couldn't answer I might send her over the edge. Her fears drove her behavior - not her intellect - and it was too difficult for her to step outside the intense emotionality of her fears to examine her behavior. She couldn't analyze, she simple acted to minimize her pain. Unfortunately, her "neutralizing" strategies caused pain to me. This pain lessened as I fully accepted that she was disordered and I would never get the answers I needed from her. She was disordered and her behavior was chaotic and she didn't even understand it herself. How could she give me understanding and closure?

Have you considered that possibility that insisting on contact and interaction might make her more unbalanced than she already is?
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2015, 10:21:47 AM »

Is the ring worth more than your sanity or your freedom? Does it really mean a lot to you? Just some thoughts... .

Getting the ring back will lead to insanity?

Yes... .DOUBLE yes, it IS worth that much to me and getting it back is worth even more.

I meant in the amount of time, energy emotion you are still using up pursuing this

What time and energy? It took 10 minutes to file the suit... .the case itself might last 5 minutes. It was a great investment in time.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2015, 10:30:31 AM »

It is not that the question is unanswerable it is that the answer lies within the other person.

Or not.

What struck me about my ex as just prior to our breakup was that she didn't have a coherent answer to many of the things I asked her. I really believe she was trying to honestly answer my questions because we were still talking about trying to work things out. She just didn't know why she did what she did at certain times. She was often perplexed by her own behavior, especially when she looked back on it.

There was one time I insisted on an answer and she started to become unhinged - I could see it in her eyes - and I pulled back in one hell of a hurry. I finally realized that if I continually demanded answers to questions that she couldn't answer I might send her over the edge. Her fears drove her behavior - not her intellect - and it was too difficult for her to step outside the intense emotionality of her fears to examine her behavior. She couldn't analyze, she simple acted to minimize her pain. Unfortunately, her "neutralizing" strategies caused pain to me. This pain lessened as I fully accepted that she was disordered and I would never get the answers I needed from her. She was disordered and her behavior was chaotic and she didn't even understand it herself. How could she give me understanding and closure?

Have you considered that possibility that insisting on contact and interaction might make her more unbalanced than she already is?

JK... .thanks a TON for your reply... .I had hunches along these lines and similar conversations after recycles... .Its good to know (in a way) that someone had a similar experience or thoughts in the same context. I am SO glad that you posted this as it acts as a confirmation of what I suspected.

Have you considered that possibility that insisting on contact and interaction might make her more unbalanced than she already is?

There was a point that I wish that I could have gotten back with her. She was not a classic 'raging' sort of borderline and we had a truly trouble free and pleasant relationship, my best ever. Beyond that, I hoped that we could have a conversation or maybe even be friends. I had been very patient over the course of the last year and respected her boundaries, hoping that time and distance might paint me white enough to have that happen. But it just didn't as this post indicates and with it any hope for civility. Its possible that someday in the future, maybe even years from now, that she might reach out. If she does, I will deal with it then, but the relationship possibility is gone and it will never come back and with it any concern for how my actions make her feel - I just don't care. I want my property back and that's about the extent of my epilogue. She can deal with her unbalance by herself.
Logged
BlackHoleSun
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 81


« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2015, 06:16:52 AM »

Hey JRT! Here are a few potential answers for you as to why someone with BPD would be scared of someone... .

Transference/Projection

Someone with BPD may know they are verbally/emotionally/physically abusive. They may know they are obsessive to the point of stalking people. They may know they are controlling etc. A person with BPD can take these "negative traits" and project or transfer them onto another person - their partner for example. In other words their partner becomes a verbally/emotionally/physically abusive, obsessive stalker - someone to be afraid of.

Feelings = Facts

Imagine someone does something nice for you. The person has been really helpful and friendly, you can see they are a good person (fact) and this makes you feel happy (feeling). For people with BPD however this can work the opposite way around. The person with BPD can feel unhappy, anxious, etc (feelings). There must be a reason for this. They then associate these feelings with something external, for example their partner. So, their partner makes them feel unhappy, anxious etc (facts).

Paranoid Ideation

Many people with BPD cannot tolerate stress. Under stress they can become paranoid. They can have severely irrational thoughts such as people are out to get them, harm them etc. This can be so bad that the person with BPD becomes delusional and suffers with hallucinations.

Their Partner has become Obsessed.

This happens a lot! The person with BPD simply confuses the ___ out of their partner. The partner genuinely becomes obsessed trying to "piece the puzzle" together, they can't accept the reality of the situation, they're still stuck in the "illusion",  believing the " fantasy" of idealisation or maybe hooked on the crazy sex and just can't let go. Essentially the "non" partner starts to act irattionally and begins to display BPD traits. This would be enough to scare anybody, let alone someone with BPD.

As others have said you can never really know the answers you're looking for. The best course of action is accepting the truth. Accepting that you never REALLY knew the person you were involved with or what motivates and drives their actions. YOU may have been happy in the relationship and thought everything was great but that really won't have been the case for your exgf if she suffers with BPD. Maybe take a look at you own actions and see how they could make your ex afraid of you (for example, not respecting her wishes for you to leave her alone). I 100% agree with the other people that have posted. To take back the power you must seek radical acceptance, go no contact, move on, delete her from your life for good, forget about her. If you don't do that SHE has all of the power over YOU. Hope that helps.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2015, 07:59:29 AM »

Hey JRT! Here are a few potential answers for you as to why someone with BPD would be scared of someone... .

Transference/Projection

Someone with BPD may know they are verbally/emotionally/physically abusive. They may know they are obsessive to the point of stalking people. They may know they are controlling etc. A person with BPD can take these "negative traits" and project or transfer them onto another person - their partner for example. In other words their partner becomes a verbally/emotionally/physically abusive, obsessive stalker - someone to be afraid of.

Some good ideas there... .thanks

Feelings = Facts

Imagine someone does something nice for you. The person has been really helpful and friendly, you can see they are a good person (fact) and this makes you feel happy (feeling). For people with BPD however this can work the opposite way around. The person with BPD can feel unhappy, anxious, etc (feelings). There must be a reason for this. They then associate these feelings with something external, for example their partner. So, their partner makes them feel unhappy, anxious etc (facts).

Paranoid Ideation

Many people with BPD cannot tolerate stress. Under stress they can become paranoid. They can have severely irrational thoughts such as people are out to get them, harm them etc. This can be so bad that the person with BPD becomes delusional and suffers with hallucinations.

Their Partner has become Obsessed.

This happens a lot! The person with BPD simply confuses the out of their partner. The partner genuinely becomes obsessed trying to "piece the puzzle" together, they can't accept the reality of the situation, they're still stuck in the "illusion",  believing the " fantasy" of idealisation or maybe hooked on the crazy sex and just can't let go. Essentially the "non" partner starts to act irattionally and begins to display BPD traits. This would be enough to scare anybody, let alone someone with BPD.

As others have said you can never really know the answers you're looking for. The best course of action is accepting the truth. Accepting that you never REALLY knew the person you were involved with or what motivates and drives their actions. YOU may have been happy in the relationship and thought everything was great but that really won't have been the case for your exgf if she suffers with BPD. Maybe take a look at you own actions and see how they could make your ex afraid of you (for example, not respecting her wishes for you to leave her alone). I 100% agree with the other people that have posted. To take back the power you must seek radical acceptance, go no contact, move on, delete her from your life for good, forget about her. If you don't do that SHE has all of the power over YOU. Hope that helps.

Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2015, 09:34:51 AM »

Hey JRT! Here are a few potential answers for you as to why someone with BPD would be scared of someone... .

Transference/Projection

Someone with BPD may know they are verbally/emotionally/physically abusive. They may know they are obsessive to the point of stalking people. They may know they are controlling etc. A person with BPD can take these "negative traits" and project or transfer them onto another person - their partner for example. In other words their partner becomes a verbally/emotionally/physically abusive, obsessive stalker - someone to be afraid of.

Feelings = Facts

Imagine someone does something nice for you. The person has been really helpful and friendly, you can see they are a good person (fact) and this makes you feel happy (feeling). For people with BPD however this can work the opposite way around. The person with BPD can feel unhappy, anxious, etc (feelings). There must be a reason for this. They then associate these feelings with something external, for example their partner. So, their partner makes them feel unhappy, anxious etc (facts).

Paranoid Ideation

Many people with BPD cannot tolerate stress. Under stress they can become paranoid. They can have severely irrational thoughts such as people are out to get them, harm them etc. This can be so bad that the person with BPD becomes delusional and suffers with hallucinations.

So why don't you just get help C? you just can't keep running. You're badly hurting people.
Logged
jhkbuzz
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1639



« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2015, 10:44:09 AM »

So why don't you just get help C? you just can't keep running. You're badly hurting people JRT.

The two things that kept me "stuck" the longest:

1. Taking my ex's maladaptive coping strategies personally. Destructive though they are, they help her cope when she's emotionally overwhelmed.

2. Expecting a normal emotional response from a person with an emotional disorder.

I needed time (now a year post b/u) and distance (n/c) to radically accept the disorder. To stop wondering if she didn't love me enough, if she didn't try hard enough. The cold hard truth is that she has mental health issues that lead to her chaotic behaviors. This has nothing to do with me or my worth as a partner.

You either.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2015, 10:55:56 AM »



1. Taking my ex's maladaptive coping strategies personally. Destructive though they are, they help her cope when she's emotionally overwhelmed.

I hear this here frequently: I don't understand this at all. Its like saying, "They shoot you in the head, but don't take it personally". I don't know how it can be taken as anything EXCEPT personally.
Logged
Learning_curve74
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1333



« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2015, 11:42:23 AM »

JRT, when it's mentioned to "not take it personally", the meaning is that the borderline's behavior is not a reflection of you but simply their own maladaptive coping strategies. It could have happened to somebody else, not you personally, and in fact, since these are repetitive ingrained behavior patterns, it's doubtful you were the first person, and probably not the last, to be treated in this manner by her.

"It's not you, it's me."  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

However, that is not to relieve ourselves from our half of the relationship. We play our part too. A common denominator I see among people here are that many put up with behaviors and incidents in these relationships that would've made others run. We also do not let go once it is over, even when that is often the most sensible and healthy choice. Obviously these are not unique to BPD relationships but probably common to most unhealthy relationships.
Logged

blissful_camper
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 611



« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2015, 11:49:30 AM »

My ex's relationships weren't really separate or unique.  They were more like one event where each partner was a surrogate plugged in to provide him an outlet for his replaying his wounds.  What's more, there was hardly any deviation from the 'script' at his end.    

You mentioned that your ex was engaged previously.  This wasn't her first rodeo.  It's possible her previous engagements ended in a similar way.  I think you mentioned that she had 3 engagements... . To me, that's a lot of engagements.  Something isn't quite right with that picture.  If you expand your view of her history to include her other relationships, do you see a pattern there?  

Logged
jhkbuzz
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1639



« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2015, 12:57:56 PM »

JRT, when it's mentioned to "not take it personally", the meaning is that the borderline's behavior is not a reflection of you but simply their own maladaptive coping strategies. It could have happened to somebody else, not you personally, and in fact, since these are repetitive ingrained behavior patterns, it's doubtful you were the first person, and probably not the last, to be treated in this manner by her.

My ex's relationships weren't really separate or unique.  They were more like one event where each partner was a surrogate plugged in to provide him an outlet for his replaying his wounds.  What's more, there was hardly any deviation from the 'script' at his end.

YES! ^^^

I didn't/couldn't accept that "I shouldn't take it personally" until I was more emotionally detached. It sounded ludicrous to me when I first heard it too.
Logged
blissful_camper
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 611



« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2015, 02:37:07 PM »

JRT, when it's mentioned to "not take it personally", the meaning is that the borderline's behavior is not a reflection of you but simply their own maladaptive coping strategies. It could have happened to somebody else, not you personally, and in fact, since these are repetitive ingrained behavior patterns, it's doubtful you were the first person, and probably not the last, to be treated in this manner by her.

My ex's relationships weren't really separate or unique.  They were more like one event where each partner was a surrogate plugged in to provide him an outlet for his replaying his wounds.  What's more, there was hardly any deviation from the 'script' at his end.

YES! ^^^

I didn't/couldn't accept that "I shouldn't take it personally" until I was more emotionally detached. It sounded ludicrous to me when I first heard it too.

My ex used to tell me that I "shouldn't take it personally."  Looking back, that was useful advice from him.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) 

I think, maybe on some level, choosing to be in a relationship with someone with a PD is a lifestyle choice.  I can't adapt to that way of life.  My ex, since he refuses therapy, requires a partner who can adapt.  And if he finds that person and is happy, bueno. 
Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2015, 09:51:51 PM »

Why would you want to be with someone so disordered? I ask myself the same question, believe me. Lol. Diagnostic labels aside maybe some people truly are just "rotten." Dont you think you deserve better than that JRT?
Logged

JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2015, 12:01:07 AM »

JRT, when it's mentioned to "not take it personally", the meaning is that the borderline's behavior is not a reflection of you but simply their own maladaptive coping strategies. It could have happened to somebody else, not you personally, and in fact, since these are repetitive ingrained behavior patterns, it's doubtful you were the first person, and probably not the last, to be treated in this manner by her.

Sure I get it; but it defines the offensive behaviors from their perspective.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2015, 12:03:20 AM »

My ex's relationships weren't really separate or unique.  They were more like one event where each partner was a surrogate plugged in to provide him an outlet for his replaying his wounds.  What's more, there was hardly any deviation from the 'script' at his end.    

You mentioned that your ex was engaged previously.  This wasn't her first rodeo.  It's possible her previous engagements ended in a similar way.  I think you mentioned that she had 3 engagements... . To me, that's a lot of engagements.  Something isn't quite right with that picture.  If you expand your view of her history to include her other relationships, do you see a pattern there?  

Of course I do... .but one tires to see possibility and hope even in something that was as glaring. Maybe when was just a bad picker... .or a victim of circumstance, etc. One tires to put those types of things behind the relationship and work on the relationship itself, not what happened with others int he past. OF course, after the fact, hindsight is 20/20.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2015, 12:06:25 AM »

JRT, when it's mentioned to "not take it personally", the meaning is that the borderline's behavior is not a reflection of you but simply their own maladaptive coping strategies. It could have happened to somebody else, not you personally, and in fact, since these are repetitive ingrained behavior patterns, it's doubtful you were the first person, and probably not the last, to be treated in this manner by her.

My ex's relationships weren't really separate or unique.  They were more like one event where each partner was a surrogate plugged in to provide him an outlet for his replaying his wounds.  What's more, there was hardly any deviation from the 'script' at his end.

YES! ^^^

I didn't/couldn't accept that "I shouldn't take it personally" until I was more emotionally detached. It sounded ludicrous to me when I first heard it too.

I feel that it helps to explain their behavior; indeed she did not do what she did because JRT did such and such and was a chronic this and that, she did it because of her disorder. Semantics being what they are, however, it infers that there was no personal element directed at me: the target could have been anyone, but it was, in fact, me and the arrow went directly through my heart. In this way, it couldn't have been more personal.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2015, 12:08:57 AM »

Why would you want to be with someone so disordered? I ask myself the same question, believe me. Lol. Diagnostic labels aside maybe some people truly are just "rotten." Dont you think you deserve better than that JRT?

I am beginning to think that we have replaced such terms, 'bad person'. 'rotten', 'evil', with terminology that makes it sound far less menacing and dangerous. Had I only known she was disordered and to this extent... .
Logged
saintgrey
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 73


« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2015, 03:43:52 AM »

Their Partner has become Obsessed.

This happens a lot! The person with BPD simply confuses the out of their partner. The partner genuinely becomes obsessed trying to "piece the puzzle" together, they can't accept the reality of the situation, they're still stuck in the "illusion",  believing the " fantasy" of idealisation or maybe hooked on the crazy sex and just can't let go. Essentially the "non" partner starts to act irattionally and begins to display BPD traits. This would be enough to scare anybody, let alone someone with BPD.

As others have said you can never really know the answers you're looking for. The best course of action is accepting the truth. Accepting that you never REALLY knew the person you were involved with or what motivates and drives their actions. YOU may have been happy in the relationship and thought everything was great but that really won't have been the case for your exgf if she suffers with BPD. Maybe take a look at you own actions and see how they could make your ex afraid of you (for example, not respecting her wishes for you to leave her alone). I 100% agree with the other people that have posted. To take back the power you must seek radical acceptance, go no contact, move on, delete her from your life for good, forget about her. If you don't do that SHE has all of the power over YOU. Hope that helps.

Thank you for this   I think my ex knew that the silent treatment would make me go "crazy" for a moment and react in that way, in both breakups i ended up doing exactly the same thing and she turned all the blame on my shoulders only this time 100 times worst 

Logged
Reforming
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 768



« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2015, 06:08:35 AM »

Hi JRT

Excerpt
I have not really come across this at all on this forum or anywhere else. Has anyone else experienced anything similar or have an opinion on this? Is seeing me forcing her to deal with her BPD shame?

I think you've already got a lot of really good feedback and insight from other posters.

I can relate to your desire to understand what's driving your exes behaviour. Trying to make sense of what happened was very important to me too in the aftermath of my breakup. This site and the thoughts and posts of other members really helped me.

I still found accepting the reality of the disorder harder. My exes actions and behaviour felt so hurtful and personal - it was very difficult to come to terms with the idea that it wasn't actually about me. Accepting that meant that my relationship and the connection I felt wasn't actually as special as I believed

My ex left while I was away on business and I got a text when I arrived back.

She refused to provide a forwarding address and told me that her family had warned her to stay away from me. I was confused and hurt by her behaviour. At various points in the relationship she'd been violent and unfaithful.

We met briefly, but I didn't try to initiate contact or ask her to come back then or afterwards. I'd been seeing REBT (Rational Emotional Behaviour Therapy) therapist for a few months prior to the breakup and that really helped me accept her right to make a choice. Not like it, but accept that everyone has the right to choose

I think many BPDs slip into victim mode to avoid dealing with shame and responsibility. Let's be honest it can be very seductive for NONs too, as a way of avoiding taking responsibility for our own actions and choices, but it seems to be a big element of BPD behaviour.

It can feel particularly galling to find yourself perceived or portrayed as a persecutor when you feel like you're the one who has been betrayed and abused.

But in order for a BPD to rationalise their victim stasis they need a persecutor, (there are very good links on this site about the Karpman Drama Triangle) and when you're hurt, angry and looking for closure it's all too easy to slip into that role. Many of us who began as rescuers / white knights ended up being persecutors (at least in the eyes of our exes).

You cannot alter your exes perception of you or rewire her brain, but by stepping back and disengaging you can put out the fire and give yourself the space to look after yourself and work on your own healing and closure. That's the only way forward. Continued contact or conflict will just keep you stuck in the triangle which brings me to the ring.

The other poster's reference to Lord of the Rings was because the story of the three books centre around a struggle to get a great ring of power, which cause massive battles and upheaval.


She has some property of mine that I would like to have returned among those items, the engagement ring. I took her to Europe to propose and and ran out of time before the trip so I had to buy a cheapo Sterling silver ring as a ‘stand in’ ring while her permanent one was being built….it only cost $250 but I want it back as it means a lot to me.

Can I ask why a $250 sterling ring means so much to you?

I can understand if it was a family heirloom or something that cost thousands of dollars, but your legal fees will surely cost as much if not more that the ring which was just a stand in for something that was never given…

I do understand your desire to assert yourself and take affirmative action, but will you actually achieve by getting the cheap ring back. Ignoring her boundaries - her clearly stated desire to be left alone and using legal action to recover something which you given as a gift you're just confirming her belief that she is a victim and you are persecuting.

I appreciate that her feelings or mental health may not feel important to you, but what about your own. I know how unfair it can all feel, but I found that my desire for justice and closure from my ex was also driven by a fear of detaching and letting go.

As the other posters have said - we all have to find our own way and I hope you find healing and peaces

Reforming
Logged

Heartbroken5

Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 6


« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2015, 07:21:22 AM »

hi jrt I can identify with how you are feeling and its like living through a night mare... she is protecting herself in my opinion she has absolutely no regard for you as they don't care about anyone but themselves .they some how convince themselves they are the victim and really believe this, maybe near the end of your relationship you began challenging her over little things or maybe it stopped being all about her.I wish I could give you a receipe for success but this is a no win situation,you want closure ,satisfaction etc... .I am slowly learning this is not possible with people who have a personality it is a bitter pill to swallow but you need to focus on you ,putting your energy into this person is a waste of time they are so devious you will always come out looking the worst.I was with my husband nearly 30 years I met him when I was only 15,I have four children with him ,he lives next door has no part in parenting contacts the children when he needs them for something or is feeling lonely,doesnt support us financially ,has not spoken to our 18 year old in two years as  she exposed his behaviour.at the end of our relationship he had become a pathological liar ,devious, manipulating emotionally,verbally and physically abusive.i had adored this man I thought we would betogether for the rest of our live s rear our children together etc... .He now avoids me wont have any contact (too much to go into)but basically he I felt was punishing ,controlling me by avoidance ,he wont even discuss the children because he sees rules and boundries as control... .so I stopped contacting him avoid where I think he might be etc... .as I am now protecting ME I am now the most important person its no longer him it hurts like hell but I know I can and need to do this for ME... .so maybe you should shift the focus over to you .

Logged
jhkbuzz
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1639



« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2015, 07:40:35 AM »

JRT, when it's mentioned to "not take it personally", the meaning is that the borderline's behavior is not a reflection of you but simply their own maladaptive coping strategies. It could have happened to somebody else, not you personally, and in fact, since these are repetitive ingrained behavior patterns, it's doubtful you were the first person, and probably not the last, to be treated in this manner by her.

My ex's relationships weren't really separate or unique.  They were more like one event where each partner was a surrogate plugged in to provide him an outlet for his replaying his wounds.  What's more, there was hardly any deviation from the 'script' at his end.

YES! ^^^

I didn't/couldn't accept that "I shouldn't take it personally" until I was more emotionally detached. It sounded ludicrous to me when I first heard it too.

I feel that it helps to explain their behavior; indeed she did not do what she did because JRT did such and such and was a chronic this and that, she did it because of her disorder. Semantics being what they are, however, it infers that there was no personal element directed at me: the target could have been anyone, but it was, in fact, me and the arrow went directly through my heart. In this way, it couldn't have been more personal.

THAT I completely understand... .none of this is to say that it doesn't feel personal. It was personally the most devastating thing that anyone has ever done to me, and I experienced a pain that I had never felt before. But you "get it" - nothing you did brought it on; 'the target could have been anyone.'
Logged
FannyB
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 566



« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2015, 07:53:57 AM »

Hi JRT

If your ex wasn't disordered, and refused to return a ring for an engagement that SHE had broken off, would you still be resorting to the courts to get the item back?

If the answer to this question is a 'yes' then aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder? if the answer to that question is 'no' then maybe it is more about her than you.

Fanny
Logged
Mr Hollande
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 631


« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2015, 10:00:48 AM »

JRT, I agree with you on the "it's not personal" phrase. It's bandied about far too freely and without enough consideration.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2015, 10:12:04 AM »

Hi JRT

If your ex wasn't disordered, and refused to return a ring for an engagement that SHE had broken off, would you still be resorting to the courts to get the item back?

If the answer to this question is a 'yes' then aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder? if the answer to that question is 'no' then maybe it is more about her than you.

Fanny

Of course I would... .how else would I have it returned if she refused contact to the extent that I could even request it?

Can you explain this?

"aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder?"

Also, do you have any insight as to why she went to these extreme lengths?
Logged
Mutt
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced Oct 2015
Posts: 10278



WWW
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2015, 10:20:40 AM »

Hi JRT,

How much is it going to cost in legal fees to get a $250 ring back? I can see how some lawyers like conflict.
Logged

"Let go or be dragged" -Zen proverb
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2015, 10:28:01 AM »

hi jrt I can identify with how you are feeling and its like living through a night mare... she is protecting herself in my opinion she has absolutely no regard for you as they don't care about anyone but themselves .they some how convince themselves they are the victim and really believe this, maybe near the end of your relationship you began challenging her over little things or maybe it stopped being all about her.I wish I could give you a receipe for success but this is a no win situation,you want closure ,satisfaction etc... .I am slowly learning this is not possible with people who have a personality it is a bitter pill to swallow but you need to focus on you ,putting your energy into this person is a waste of time they are so devious you will always come out looking the worst.I was with my husband nearly 30 years I met him when I was only 15,I have four children with him ,he lives next door has no part in parenting contacts the children when he needs them for something or is feeling lonely,doesnt support us financially ,has not spoken to our 18 year old in two years as  she exposed his behaviour.at the end of our relationship he had become a pathological liar ,devious, manipulating emotionally,verbally and physically abusive.i had adored this man I thought we would betogether for the rest of our live s rear our children together etc... .He now avoids me wont have any contact (too much to go into)but basically he I felt was punishing ,controlling me by avoidance ,he wont even discuss the children because he sees rules and boundries as control... .so I stopped contacting him avoid where I think he might be etc... .as I am now protecting ME I am now the most important person its no longer him it hurts like hell but I know I can and need to do this for ME... .so maybe you should shift the focus over to you .

I am very sorry that you are going through this, I know how incredibly painful and frustrating that it is. Please let me know if there is anything that I can do to help.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2015, 10:30:41 AM »

Hi JRT,

How much is it going to cost in legal fees to get a $250 ring back? I can see how some lawyers like conflict.

The filing fee... .its small claims court so $50 is all.

Meanwhile, her companies attorney tells me that he will be defending her and appearing. So, she is sending a $500 an hour attorney on a 3-4 hour task to avoid a $250 judgement! And one that she will VERY likely lose.
Logged
Mutt
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced Oct 2015
Posts: 10278



WWW
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2015, 10:41:28 AM »

Hi JRT,

How much is it going to cost in legal fees to get a $250 ring back? I can see how some lawyers like conflict.

The filing fee... .its small claims court so $50 is all.

Meanwhile, her companies attorney tells me that he will be defending her and appearing. So, she is sending a $500 an hour attorney on a 3-4 hour task to avoid a $250 judgement! And one that she will VERY likely lose.

What's your lawyer's retainer fee?
Logged

"Let go or be dragged" -Zen proverb
rotiroti
formerly neveragainthanks
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 758



« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2015, 10:43:52 AM »

Hi JRT

If your ex wasn't disordered, and refused to return a ring for an engagement that SHE had broken off, would you still be resorting to the courts to get the item back?

If the answer to this question is a 'yes' then aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder? if the answer to that question is 'no' then maybe it is more about her than you.

Fanny

Of course I would... .how else would I have it returned if she refused contact to the extent that I could even request it?

Can you explain this?

"aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder?"

Also, do you have any insight as to why she went to these extreme lengths?

I think it means that you can't hold a pwBPD to the same standards we face. There are multiple barriers that simply make them unable to. It's the same barriers that lead to her extreme perception of reality (that you are persecuting her)

Do you have a lawyer of your own?
Logged
KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2015, 10:54:16 AM »

Will you be satisfied with winning a monetary judgment in court, or will only a return of the ring itself do the trick? I'm thinking there are two parties here, and two strong wills.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2015, 11:12:13 AM »

@Mutt and NaT... its small claims court, a lawyer is not necessary and is discouraged. I anticipate that the judge might actually be upset that she does not appear in person. I have relationships with several who know the situation that suspect that this might backfire for her... .it really already has.

@Kate,,,I feel a great degree of satisfaction already, its really amazing. The call from the cops was a boost; I was a victory when I asked he cop '... .soo, are you calling to tell me that my legal right to recover my property has been revoked by you and her?'. I knew that after he hung up he told her something along the lines of, 'there you go... .I did you this favor... .you have nothing to go on to get a PPO... .now stop bothering us'. If that was not enough, when her lawyer called me the next day to tell me that he was going to defend her (he is a building industry attorney), I knew that she DIDN'T have power... .her power was my perception of it - it was MY RESPECT FOR HER BOUNDARIES! I withdrew that respect and saw her actions as desperate and pathetic. I did what any rational person would do and now I was using HER tactics to regain what she took away.

The court date is  a huge victory and reclamation of power, if it never happens for whatever reason, it will still be a milestone. Even if she is a no show in favor of her attorney (I actually have three other pieces of property that she kept that I am retaining as options in I REALLY need force her to show up in court), I still have forced her to do something that she refused to do (at my expense, and at the expense of what she has the civil obligation to do), I would be ok with that. I would be best if the actual ring is recovered, it meant a lot to me as did my relationship (I have not painted her ALL black) and I would like to keep it. But a check for $250 in lieu of the ring will also suffice, but not as well.

As I mentioned, this was the smartest thing that I did... .

Logged
Learning_curve74
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1333



« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2015, 11:15:24 AM »

JRT, I agree with you on the "it's not personal" phrase. It's bandied about far too freely and without enough consideration.

Of course it's personal to us because it's happening to us and everything we experience is "personal".

When you see "it's not personal" on the forums, it's not personal in the sense that a car driver who dangerously cuts you off in traffic isn't a personal attack on YOU, per se. You just happen to be a victim of their dangerous driving behaviors. AND you also don't know WHY they did it. Could it be because they are simply an entitled jerk driver or is it because they are speeding their pregnant wife to the hospital? Does it bother you that you won't ever really know?
Logged

Learning_curve74
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1333



« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2015, 11:22:53 AM »

JRT, it sounds like the lawyer is just representing her for free as a favor. I think you have a decent chance of winning a judgement in your favor. If this gives you more peace in the long haul, more power to you.

It's often said that in BPD relationships the non-BPD partner "becomes" the trigger. Basically just dealing with you becomes a stressor to the borderline. One of the ways to cope with a stressor is to simply run away from it and stay away from it.
Logged

Mr Hollande
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 631


« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2015, 11:26:16 AM »

I have seen several people new to this forum, myself included at one point, giving details of their devastation only to receive the go for catch phrase "it's nothing personal". I know why it's not personal but there is a time and a place to say it and there is many a time and place not to say it. It's often used willy nilly.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2015, 11:37:33 AM »

@LC….I see the analogy and it’s a  good one….at one point in time, It would have mattered to me if, say, they were speeding their pregnant wife to the hospital. However, if their actions killed a loved one, for example, their pregnant wife would mean little or nothing to me at all.

Thanks for your encouragement regarding my case. My father is an attorney and he helped me out a bit with this (on top of telling me that I might want to become ‘assertive’ with anyone that comes to threaten a PPO as there is ZERO substantiation for one - the attorneys and cops were just being bullies on her behalf and no legal ground for anything).  My state is one where the law recognizes a ring as an instrument to a contract. If the contract is not fully executed (no marriage), the consideration (the ring) associated with the contract must be returned. This has been established by precedent and is now law here. I am curious as to how the lawyer plans on defending this.

@Mr H….I agree….I think that there are many things that we do like that


Betcha that this one is going to get locked down because of its size soon... .thanks all for posting
Logged
ScorpioLaw

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 24


« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2015, 11:43:56 AM »

  Look it no one else here will say it I will.

Being vindictive is never good. You're only going to prove that she is right to get away from you anyway she can. You're on a mission to do nothing but prove to yourself you have some type of power or control when you clearly don't. How could you? You don't even have control over your own thoughts. You're clearly consumed still because of the lengths you're going to.

For what? A ring? Power? Control? This sounds like a real life drama of The Lord of the Rings.

 She has more power over you than you'll ever admit. Every time you think about a reason on how you're right or justified is just an other second wasted. Look in the mirror, bud. She's winning and you're letting her.

 

Not because she has the ring. She's wrong too for keeping it. But it sounds to me like you were very use to having some type of power or control, and she turned the tables on you.

In my opinion? She's probably smiling deep inside while getting whatever payback she can in the mean time. For every time she didn't stand up to you during your relationship. For every preconceived slight you did. This is HER way of getting power over you. This is her way of standing up.

Logged
gameover
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 124


« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2015, 11:47:04 AM »

@ScorpioLaw

Awesome post.  Pretty much spot on.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2015, 12:08:16 PM »

 Look it no one else here will say it I will.

Being vindictive is never good. vindictive? Its my property.  You're only going to prove that she is right to get away from you anyway she can. You're on a mission to do nothing but prove to yourself you have some type of power or control when you clearly don't well, i got her to answer a summons didn't I? . How could you? You don't even have control over your own thoughts hmmmm, why do you think this? ? . You're clearly consumed still because of the lengths you're going to. ibid

For what? A ring? Power? Control? YES! I have said this over and over on this thread. Is that unhealthy? I hope not.  This sounds like a real life drama of The Lord of the Rings.

 She has more power over you than you'll ever admit. How so? This is about my property and her ownership of what she has done. Please explain why the alternative of taking it on the chin and 'respecting her boundaries' is preferable.  Every time you think about a reason on how you're right or justified is just an other second wasted. Look in the mirror, bud. She's winning and you're letting her.

 

Not because she has the ring. She's wrong too for keeping it. But it sounds to me like you were very use to having some type of power or control, and she turned the tables on you. To assert this, you would need insight into my 2 year relationship... .right?

In my opinion? She's probably smiling deep inside while getting whatever payback she can in the mean time. For every time she didn't stand up to you during your relationship. For every preconceived slight you did. This is HER way of getting power over you. This is her way of standing up. This is highly speculative... .do you think that she might have asserted her power over me by saying no to 'will you marry me?' or not making a decision to move first closer to where I live then into my house? It seems that you have draw the conclusion that she was somehow abused or victimized. Can you share how you came to this conclusion?

Is it possible for you to provide your perspective on her extreme behaviors?

Logged
FannyB
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 566



« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2015, 12:15:47 PM »

Hi JRT

If your ex wasn't disordered, and refused to return a ring for an engagement that SHE had broken off, would you still be resorting to the courts to get the item back?

If the answer to this question is a 'yes' then aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder? if the answer to that question is 'no' then maybe it is more about her than you.

Fanny

Of course I would... .how else would I have it returned if she refused contact to the extent that I could even request it?

Can you explain this?

"aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder?"

Also, do you have any insight as to why she went to these extreme lengths?

Hi JRT

I was seeking to establish that your action was about behavioral standards per se and not about your ex i.e. revenge.  If you would have done this with a non-disordered ex then isn't that you enforcing a boundary? Should JRT let it go just because his ex is disordered if he wouldn't have if she was a 'non'?

Should she get preferential treatment because she has BPD? I'm not sure she should, but this is very much a personal choice that each of us has to make.

Fanny
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2015, 12:25:20 PM »

Hi JRT

If your ex wasn't disordered, and refused to return a ring for an engagement that SHE had broken off, would you still be resorting to the courts to get the item back?

If the answer to this question is a 'yes' then aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder? if the answer to that question is 'no' then maybe it is more about her than you.

Fanny

Of course I would... .how else would I have it returned if she refused contact to the extent that I could even request it?

Can you explain this?

"aren't you simply enforcing behavioral standards irrespective of her disorder?"

Also, do you have any insight as to why she went to these extreme lengths?

Hi JRT

I was seeking to establish that your action was about behavioral standards per se and not about your ex i.e. revenge.  If you would have done this with a non-disordered ex then isn't that you enforcing a boundary? Should JRT let it go just because his ex is disordered if he wouldn't have if she was a 'non'?

Should she get preferential treatment because she has BPD? I'm not sure she should, but this is very much a personal choice that each of us has to make.

Fanny

If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think that BPD - at this point - has much of a bearing on things. At one point, I would have cared to do this delicately and with her boundaries in mind. Now I could give a rats behind about her and her needs (I should have done this LONG ago) and do what my instinct and logic define are good for JRT. Its been a year... .she will never come around... .she will never be healthy... .I will NEVER have a relationship with her... .so why should I care about anything EXCEPT the return of my property and healing from what she had done?
Logged
gameover
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 124


« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2015, 12:26:08 PM »

@JRT

I'm with Scorpio on this one.  $250 is a small price to pay for freedom, healing, peace of mind.

Excerpt
For what? A ring? Power? Control? YES! I have said this over and over on this thread. Is that unhealthy? I hope not.

Yes.  

Excerpt
This is about my property and her ownership of what she has done.

You can't force other people to hold themselves accountable.

Excerpt
Please explain why the alternative of taking it on the chin and 'respecting her boundaries' is preferable.

Health, freedom, peace of mind.

Excerpt
To assert this, you would need insight into my 2 year relationship... .right?

Every relationship is different, but there are definite patterns to these types of relationships and the types of people who get involved in them.

Excerpt
This is highly speculative... .do you think that she might have asserted her power over me by saying no to 'will you marry me?' or not making a decision to move first closer to where I live then into my house? It seems that you have draw the conclusion that she was somehow abused or victimized. Can you share how you came to this conclusion?

She drew that conclusion.  That is HER reality, regardless of what really happened.  You're still holding her to 'non' standards of behavior.  This will result in unresovable frustration until you accept that she has a disorder.

Excerpt
Is it possible for you to provide your perspective on her extreme behaviors?

It's BPD 101.  Every single one of us has dealt with this extreme behavior, to different degrees.  You can't change 'em, you can't understand 'em, you can't get 'em to accept responsibility--all you'll do is drive yourself crazy.  

This isn't about being 'right' or being 'wrong.'  This isn't about 'justice,' or 'ethics,' or 'holding other people accountable.'  This is about YOUR health and YOUR healing.  There's nothing for you if you go down that rabbit hole.  And it won't make things better.  The ring isn't the real issue here.  

Obviously, you're free to make your own decisions and rationalizations.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Just some objective perspective from someone who's been there.
Logged
Mutt
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced Oct 2015
Posts: 10278



WWW
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2015, 12:27:10 PM »

Hi JRT,

You broke up a year ago? Why do this now?
Logged

"Let go or be dragged" -Zen proverb
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2015, 12:38:57 PM »

@JRT

I'm with Scorpio on this one.  $250 is a small price to pay for freedom, healing, peace of mind.

Is that universal?

Excerpt
For what? A ring? Power? Control? YES! I have said this over and over on this thread. Is that unhealthy? I hope not.

Yes.  

How so? Again, is this a universal standard?

Excerpt
This is about my property and her ownership of what she has done.

You can't force other people to hold themselves accountable.

But I did... .she or her attorney will be in court in 2 weeks or there will be a default judgement against her.

Excerpt
Please explain why the alternative of taking it on the chin and 'respecting her boundaries' is preferable.

Health, freedom, peace of mind.

you get this from laying down and letting someone walk all over you... .not returning things that she has no legal right to? That doesn't make any sense at all to me! I get that from the opposite... .sorry; do you see how people are different and my path is different than yours?

Excerpt
To assert this, you would need insight into my 2 year relationship... .right?

Every relationship is different, but there are definite patterns to these types of relationships and the types of people who get involved in them.

And so you see a pattern, somehow, that I was 'not good' to my fiance?

Excerpt
This is highly speculative... .do you think that she might have asserted her power over me by saying no to 'will you marry me?' or not making a decision to move first closer to where I live then into my house? It seems that you have draw the conclusion that she was somehow abused or victimized. Can you share how you came to this conclusion?

She drew that conclusion.  That is HER reality, regardless of what really happened.  You're still holding her to 'non' standards of behavior.  This will result in unresovable frustration until you accept that she has a disorder.

The conclusion was yours in the post... .how about we just drop that; by all accounts including her own and her family and friends, I was great to her. I HAVE accepted that she has a disorder, thats why I am here.

Excerpt
Is it possible for you to provide your perspective on her extreme behaviors?

It's BPD 101.  Every single one of us has dealt with this extreme behavior, to different degrees.  You can't change 'em, you can't understand 'em, you can't get 'em to accept responsibility--all you'll do is drive yourself crazy.  

This isn't about being 'right' or being 'wrong.'  This isn't about 'justice,' or 'ethics,' or 'holding other people accountable.'  This is about YOUR health and YOUR healing.  There's nothing for you if you go down that rabbit hole.  And it won't make things better.  The ring isn't the real issue here.  

Obviously, you're free to make your own decisions and rationalizations.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Just some objective perspective from someone who's been there.

Okay, so no perspective?

Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2015, 12:51:34 PM »

Hi JRT,

You broke up a year ago? Why do this now?

Good question Mutt.

There is something about me, maybe a character flaw, where I retain hope... .that effectively all things will work out if you put forth the right effort, God willing and that you exhaust all possibilities along the way in the effort to making them right. I respected her space over the course of the last year and hoped that during that period, she would have tempered her position enough to at least have a conversation. There are many dynamics to what I thought, felt and observed (including her electronic stalking and some new hijnks that I suspect) during this period but there was a diminishing part of me that wanted her back and the life we had before. I was patient in this way for almost a year... .I felt earlier in the month that it was time to put forth the final efforts for my peace of mind.

As I referred to during this epic thread, the interaction with the cops and attorney -knowing that they had no legal standing, where she had gone to them as a penniless emotional beggar with absolutely nothing from a legal perspective to effect her will against me (or maybe she just wanted them to warn me only, dunno); having nothing more than a childish 'tell him to stop talking to me' premise really made something snap in me on an almost immediately. That power that has come up over and over again her was gone instantaneously. I no longer see her as a bigger than life monster with power over me; I want but she does not give... .won't even talk. Now I see her as small, pathetic, tragicomic.

We are all different and walk a separate path to everything in life. I am surprised that this was so controversial to so many. 
Logged
gameover
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 124


« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2015, 12:56:50 PM »

Excerpt
Is that universal?

Let me define that:  Healthy is having control over your own life and thoughts / having your own personal standards.  Unhealthy is trying to hold other people to those standards and allowing their behavior to affect your own--that's codependency.

Excerpt
But I did... .she or her attorney will be in court in 2 weeks or there will be a default judgement against her.

That's an arbitrary means of extracting 'justice.'  Maybe getting the ring back will make you feel better about her betrayal and it'll all be sunshine and rainbows after that.

Excerpt
you get this from laying down and letting someone walk all over you.

You can't get those things from other people.

Excerpt
do you see how people are different and my path is different than yours?

I respect that.  Let me know you feel better if you get the ring back.

Excerpt
And so you see a pattern, somehow, that I was 'not good' to my fiance?

Never said nor implied that.  

Excerpt
by all accounts including her own and her family and friends, I was great to her.

Hey, no disputes here.  But did you do those things expecting her to be great to you in return?

I guess what I'm getting at, is the only real power we have over ourselves and other people is the ability to walk away.  
Logged
KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2015, 01:06:16 PM »

JRT, I think Mutt's question about the timeline might even be pertinent legally. What will you say when the magistrate asks you why you waited a year to attempt to recover your property? 
Logged
123Phoebe
Staying and Undecided
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 2070



« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2015, 01:08:45 PM »

the only real power we have over ourselves and other people is the ability to walk away.  

Hi JRT, I'll admit to skimming through your thread, but can feel all of that emotion way over here   You, at one time, really loved her :'(

I guess my take away, is to extend that love out to the universe, toss it up in the air, rather than steadfastly clinging to what she's perceived to be holding onto--  your lost dreams in the shape of a ring.

Let her go and you'll reclaim yourself
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2015, 01:09:52 PM »

Excerpt
Is that universal?

Let me define that:  Healthy is having control over your own life and thoughts / having your own personal standards.  Unhealthy is trying to hold other people to those standards and allowing their behavior to affect your own--that's codependency.

So you see why doing what I did worked for me, right?

Excerpt
But I did... .she or her attorney will be in court in 2 weeks or there will be a default judgement against her.

That's an arbitrary means of extracting 'justice.'  Maybe getting the ring back will make you feel better about her betrayal and it'll all be sunshine and rainbows after that.

Arbitrary? Its the ONLY means of Justice available to me. Sunshine? Rainbows?

Excerpt
you get this from laying down and letting someone walk all over you.

You can't get those things from other people.

What things? What other people. Not sure I follow this

Excerpt
do you see how people are different and my path is different than yours?

I respect that.  Let me know you feel better if you get the ring back.

Ping me on September 15th... .but I can tell you right now, these past two weeks have been great,

Excerpt
And so you see a pattern, somehow, that I was 'not good' to my fiance?

Never said nor implied that.  

Okay... .did you mean something different with this: ' But it sounds to me like you were very use to having some type of power or control'

Excerpt
by all accounts including her own and her family and friends, I was great to her.

Hey, no disputes here.  But did you do those things expecting her to be great to you in return?

one would hope right? At the very least, in exchange if she intended to b/u for any reason and nice 'dear JRT' letter or conversation might have been polite... .AND a return of property

I guess what I'm getting at, is the only real power we have over ourselves and other people is the ability to walk away.  

Respectfully, I disagree.

Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2015, 01:11:45 PM »

JRT, I think Mutt's question about the timeline might even be pertinent legally. What will you say when the magistrate asks you why you waited a year to attempt to recover your property? 

There is a 2 year statute of limitations on this, it will likely not come up. But if it does, I will tell him exactly what I told Mutt: I respected her boundaries during that period and was hoping that she would have tempered her frustrations enough to have an adult conversation with me.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2015, 01:13:40 PM »

the only real power we have over ourselves and other people is the ability to walk away.  

Hi JRT, I'll admit to skimming through your thread, but can feel all of that emotion way over here   You, at one time, really loved her :'(

I guess my take away, is to extend that love out to the universe, toss it up in the air, rather than steadfastly clinging to what she's perceived to be holding onto--  your lost dreams in the shape of a ring.

Let her go and you'll reclaim yourself

You are correct; yes I did... .profoundly so... .there will still be things to work on... .there will still be triggers to memories or happy times... .thanks for the hug!
Logged
ShadowIntheNight
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 442


« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2015, 01:16:16 PM »

JRT,

I have no dog in this fight. But you and I have shared a very similar breakup quite different than many on this site. Both of our exes gave us no indication they were having some sort of internal angst to the point that they'd run off with absolutely ZERO explanation, and then proceeded to scape goat us for their behavior. I won't go into what happend in my case, I have plenty of posts for anyone who cares to read it before casting judgement on my OR JRTs actions.

But JRT also didn't state in his original post that his ex over the course of the last 7 months has REPEATEDLY called him and hung up on both him and his daughter, who was also affected by his ex's actions. She also stalked him on Facebook, and given every opportunity by JRT to pick up belongings of hers that included mementos of her son's childhood, she ignored him, did not say a word, did not respond. And yet after that she continued her vigel of silent phone calls. My ex has done the same. Since last September, at least every other week I received silent hang up calls. I don't Facebook, but she has checked my LinkedIn page. And all I can ask is why?

Both JRT and I have wanted to have contact with our exes, to get some sort of resolution, even idea behind their actions. Everyone on this site asks "to what end?" I'll tell you to what end, to have some peace of mind. Our exes have gone on with their lives as if we never existed. Btw I was with my ex almost 10 YEARS. A decade of my life that now has nothing to show for it.

His ex could have ended this for JRT back last Fall, when he simply asked her what happened? She was his fiancé. She had just moved in. All she had to say was "I didn't like you, you leave hair in the drain, it's Friday." No, she chose to involve the police. I understand everyone here wants to equate a BPD as a 3 year old. I wasn't dating a 3 year old, nor was JRT. These are adult women. Women who are in their mid 40s with professional careers and with children. I had no idea what BPD was until 3 months after my ex left. 3 months of pure hell wondering why my life was in the state it was in and my ex is having the time of her life with some new person and his friends who she could care less about.

So really the simple answer, at least for me, is this is nothing but purely a power struggle between her strong will and JRT regaining his. She could have ended this whole matter simply by opening her mouth. It would have let JRT move on, but clearly she wanted out, not for him to be able to move on and heal or she wouldn't have kept calling him and not saying anything. Now she will have no choice but to open her mouth.  Frankly, from what I know of the matter and like my ex, it's amazing how shut up they've both been after their actions when they abandoned us than they ever were Inside the relationship.

If I really wanted to, I would go after my ex and relish watching her squirm. It wouldn't be small claims however. We're speaking of well over 125K in my case, but just to see her have to be truthful in a court of law would be satisfaction and a small price to pay for her injurious actions. And frankly, I do take it personal because both JRT and my ex are responsible and adult to have done things different. Neither of them is a 3 year old. Give her heck JRT.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2015, 01:44:41 PM »

JRT,

I have no dog in this fight. But you and I have shared a very similar breakup quite different than many on this site. Both of our exes gave us no indication they were having some sort of internal angst to the point that they'd run off with absolutely ZERO explanation, and then proceeded to scape goat us for their behavior. I won't go into what happend in my case, I have plenty of posts for anyone who cares to read it before casting judgement on my OR JRTs actions.

But JRT also didn't state in his original post that his ex over the course of the last 7 months has REPEATEDLY called him and hung up on both him and his daughter, who was also affected by his ex's actions. She also stalked him on Facebook, and given every opportunity by JRT to pick up belongings of hers that included mementos of her son's childhood, she ignored him, did not say a word, did not respond. And yet after that she continued her vigel of silent phone calls. My ex has done the same. Since last September, at least every other week I received silent hang up calls. I don't Facebook, but she has checked my LinkedIn page. And all I can ask is why?

Both JRT and I have wanted to have contact with our exes, to get some sort of resolution, even idea behind their actions. Everyone on this site asks "to what end?" I'll tell you to what end, to have some peace of mind. Our exes have gone on with their lives as if we never existed. Btw I was with my ex almost 10 YEARS. A decade of my life that now has nothing to show for it.

His ex could have ended this for JRT back last Fall, when he simply asked her what happened? She was his fiancé. She had just moved in. All she had to say was "I didn't like you, you leave hair in the drain, it's Friday." No, she chose to involve the police. I understand everyone here wants to equate a BPD as a 3 year old. I wasn't dating a 3 year old, nor was JRT. These are adult women. Women who are in their mid 40s with professional careers and with children. I had no idea what BPD was until 3 months after my ex left. 3 months of pure hell wondering why my life was in the state it was in and my ex is having the time of her life with some new person and his friends who she could care less about.

So really the simple answer, at least for me, is this is nothing but purely a power struggle between her strong will and JRT regaining his. She could have ended this whole matter simply by opening her mouth. It would have let JRT move on, but clearly she wanted out, not for him to be able to move on and heal or she wouldn't have kept calling him and not saying anything. Now she will have no choice but to open her mouth.  Frankly, from what I know of the matter and like my ex, it's amazing how shut up they've both been after their actions when they abandoned us than they ever were Inside the relationship.

If I really wanted to, I would go after my ex and relish watching her squirm. It wouldn't be small claims however. We're speaking of well over 125K in my case, but just to see her have to be truthful in a court of law would be satisfaction and a small price to pay for her injurious actions. And frankly, I do take it personal because both JRT and my ex are responsible and adult to have done things different. Neither of them is a 3 year old. Give her heck JRT.

Its nice to know when someone understands and understands so fully... .you are a class act SitN... .big and eternal hugs to you!
Logged
KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2015, 02:17:56 PM »

I can't readily think of any way this small claims action could backfire on you that would be truly damaging. (Anyone else?)

On the other hand, your ex is probably a persuasive blamer; is on her third or fourth rodeo when it comes to broken engagements; police have been involved in your relationship breakdown; and if a property law attorney actually shows up to represent her, that individual will know a thing or two about contracts and might be irritated enough at being forced to participate in this case to use some of them to make you look not so appealing.

It could be an emotionally trying ten or fifteen minutes. But maybe that's what you're seeking--a forum of that type, rather than this type. And maybe you can let go after that.

Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2015, 02:23:20 PM »

I can't readily think of any way this small claims action could backfire on you that would be truly damaging. (Anyone else?)

On the other hand, your ex is probably a persuasive blamer absolutely; is on her third or fourth rodeo when it comes to broken engagements she was married to her best friend of 10 years, for 8 months; police have been involved in your relationship breakdown not really, no; they jsut made a phone call... .there is nothing on record and nothing legally actionable jsut her running into the PD saying 'he won't stop talking to me'; and if a property law attorney actually shows up to represent her she simply doesn't have the money, that individual will know a thing or two about contracts and might be irritated enough at being forced to participate in this case to use some of them to make you look not so appealing. there is really nothing defensible according to my attorney... .no marriage = give back the ring, period

It could be an emotionally trying ten or fifteen minutes. But maybe that's what you're seeking--a forum of that type, rather than this type. And maybe you can let go after that. yes, this will be enormous to me

Logged
Mutt
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced Oct 2015
Posts: 10278



WWW
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2015, 02:51:05 PM »

Hi JRT,

You broke up a year ago? Why do this now?

Good question Mutt.

There is something about me, maybe a character flaw, where I retain hope... .that effectively all things will work out if you put forth the right effort, God willing and that you exhaust all possibilities along the way in the effort to making them right. I respected her space over the course of the last year and hoped that during that period, she would have tempered her position enough to at least have a conversation. There are many dynamics to what I thought, felt and observed (including her electronic stalking and some new hijnks that I suspect) during this period but there was a diminishing part of me that wanted her back and the life we had before. I was patient in this way for almost a year... .I felt earlier in the month that it was time to put forth the final efforts for my peace of mind.

As I referred to during this epic thread, the interaction with the cops and attorney -knowing that they had no legal standing, where she had gone to them as a penniless emotional beggar with absolutely nothing from a legal perspective to effect her will against me (or maybe she just wanted them to warn me only, dunno); having nothing more than a childish 'tell him to stop talking to me' premise really made something snap in me on an almost immediately. That power that has come up over and over again her was gone instantaneously. I no longer see her as a bigger than life monster with power over me; I want but she does not give... .won't even talk. Now I see her as small, pathetic, tragicomic.

We are all different and walk a separate path to everything in life. I am surprised that this was so controversial to so many.  

I completely understand the frustration. If you wanted an opportunity to talk to her after waiting a year and you take her to court, you may very well be burning your bridges. You also have one more year until the statutes of limitations runs out.
Logged

"Let go or be dragged" -Zen proverb
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2015, 02:56:17 PM »

Hi JRT,

You broke up a year ago? Why do this now?

Good question Mutt.

There is something about me, maybe a character flaw, where I retain hope... .that effectively all things will work out if you put forth the right effort, God willing and that you exhaust all possibilities along the way in the effort to making them right. I respected her space over the course of the last year and hoped that during that period, she would have tempered her position enough to at least have a conversation. There are many dynamics to what I thought, felt and observed (including her electronic stalking and some new hijnks that I suspect) during this period but there was a diminishing part of me that wanted her back and the life we had before. I was patient in this way for almost a year... .I felt earlier in the month that it was time to put forth the final efforts for my peace of mind.

As I referred to during this epic thread, the interaction with the cops and attorney -knowing that they had no legal standing, where she had gone to them as a penniless emotional beggar with absolutely nothing from a legal perspective to effect her will against me (or maybe she just wanted them to warn me only, dunno); having nothing more than a childish 'tell him to stop talking to me' premise really made something snap in me on an almost immediately. That power that has come up over and over again her was gone instantaneously. I no longer see her as a bigger than life monster with power over me; I want but she does not give... .won't even talk. Now I see her as small, pathetic, tragicomic.

We are all different and walk a separate path to everything in life. I am surprised that this was so controversial to so many.  

I completely understand the frustration. If you wanted an opportunity to talk to her after waiting a year and you take her to court, you may very well be burning your bridges. You also have one more year until the statutes of limitations runs out.

I considered that Mutt... .I considered waiting a million years... .but the I am not a spring chicken and even waiting this long for her to mellow out enough to at least talk proved to have little success... .my approach for the past several months was to move forward and find someone new, but if she should reappear and make a commitment to therapy and some other criteria, that I would be willing to think about things. With her reaction being what it was, it seems like if anything, she is perhaps even worse and less willing (how did I become MORE black?). Hence, I am not really very concerned about burned bridges... .I'm just done. I want my things back and to see her in the rear view mirror.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2015, 05:46:34 PM »

A quick update to this post. My ExBPD fiance responded to the suit in this way:

-using a anonymizing texting up to text a friend that she believes to be a romantic interest and fish for information

-demanding that the last 4 people that I had a common connection with on FB not only unfriend me, but block me (they were inactive FB users). To even know who is still connected required a level of committed cyberstalking to review my friends list, go through eacvh and every name and see who is still connected and then make an appeal to them to block me (1,200 people) OUCH!

-I also suspect that she has found me on BPD family and has harassed myself and another member.

I was wondering what would happen when the power gets taken away... .
Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2015, 06:21:08 PM »

How do you know it was your ex harassing your friend JRT?

My ex has kept me feeling terrorized with NC for almost 5 months now... .and that's exactly how he likes it. He and only he runs the show, and I haven't dared break the silence. In doing so I have given him power and as a result  he frolicks around happily while I have nightmares. Whatever works man, good for you for taking your power back.
Logged

JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2015, 06:29:42 PM »

How do you know it was your ex harassing your friend JRT?

My ex has kept me feeling terrorized with NC for almost 5 months now... .and that's exactly how he likes it. He and only he runs the show. In doing so I have given him power and as a result  he frolicks around happily while I have nightmares. Whatever works man, good for you for taking your power back.

\

There as sometimes things that are highly coincidental though we might think otherwise... .when there are multiple or many such coincidences, it becomes too hard to ignore as only coincidental.

Are you going to try to reach out to yours? Might be time to revoke his power.
Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2015, 06:35:59 PM »

Maybe. If/when I'm at the point I can handle the consequence of violating "King NPD's" will. How dare you defy me Beach_babe. I am a malignant narcissist, king of the WORLD. Now I will punish you. Lol. "Know your place w***e" was a common refrain of his along with with being abused during the course of our relationship. He's actually terrified me to a point I'm

afraid of being in his area for a business trip. At what point does it stop?
Logged

JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2015, 06:39:48 PM »

Maybe. If/when I'm at the point I can handle the consequence of violating "King NPD's" will. How dare you defy me Beach_babe. I am a malignant narcissist, king of the WORLD. Now I will punish you. Lol

Ha!
Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2015, 06:47:07 PM »

I'm not knocking BPDs. My own mother is one, and I KNOW without doubt they have empathy and feelings. Most of them feel very ashamed, and do hurt. NPD'S are a whole different animal. They absolutely delight in seeing people hurt. I have empathy for BPDs. NPD/ASPD not so much.
Logged

ScorpioLaw

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 24


« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2015, 07:02:16 PM »

 Look it no one else here will say it I will.

Being vindictive is never good. vindictive? Its my property.  You're only going to prove that she is right to get away from you anyway she can. You're on a mission to do nothing but prove to yourself you have some type of power or control when you clearly don't well, i got her to answer a summons didn't I? . How could you? You don't even have control over your own thoughts hmmmm, why do you think this? ? . You're clearly consumed still because of the lengths you're going to. ibid

For what? A ring? Power? Control? YES! I have said this over and over on this thread. Is that unhealthy? I hope not.  This sounds like a real life drama of The Lord of the Rings.

 She has more power over you than you'll ever admit. How so? This is about my property and her ownership of what she has done. Please explain why the alternative of taking it on the chin and 'respecting her boundaries' is preferable.  Every time you think about a reason on how you're right or justified is just an other second wasted. Look in the mirror, bud. She's winning and you're letting her.

 

Not because she has the ring. She's wrong too for keeping it. But it sounds to me like you were very use to having some type of power or control, and she turned the tables on you. To assert this, you would need insight into my 2 year relationship... .right?

In my opinion? She's probably smiling deep inside while getting whatever payback she can in the mean time. For every time she didn't stand up to you during your relationship. For every preconceived slight you did. This is HER way of getting power over you. This is her way of standing up. This is highly speculative... .do you think that she might have asserted her power over me by saying no to 'will you marry me?' or not making a decision to move first closer to where I live then into my house? It seems that you have draw the conclusion that she was somehow abused or victimized. Can you share how you came to this conclusion?

Is it possible for you to provide your perspective on her extreme behaviors?


I think you both are wrong. I'm also not nearly as nice as some other people here, though. I'm just blunt. I won't talk in the terms used here. I'm not on anyone's side.

Look in the mirror, mate. Seriously.

You're definitely out to be vindictive. I'm like that too. I have to struggle hard to reel it in. I don't see anything in your post though that you even realize it. That's what's scary to me. Woman turn spiteful and men turn vindictive.

My point was. You're so caught up on this, and tied up emotionally that you're blinded by any type of retribution.

Yes I do think you had a lot of power in your relationship. You seem like you just have a "powerful persona". I doubt you knew you were stepping over her, while doing it. She probably never told you, and went along with it. But inside she was probably building up resentment.

Why do you think she left like she did? Without a word, honestly? Maybe she knew how you'd react? Its obvious why - she was scared. She couldn't handle it. I think she knew how you'd become, and wanted to get away without a confrontation... .Would you have just accepted a break up, without a battle? No, of course not.

 She sounds like a weak willed person, and you're being a bully in a way. Just like all bullies it stems from being hurt. Just because you can step on someone doesn't mean you should. Be a man and stop lowering yourself to her level. She's obviously a weak person who can't stand up for herself. I'm sure she would have done it. So why push her around just because you can?

This is a power struggle and you're losing it. The most you'll get is a hallow victory, worth nothing. Any good memories that ring might have meant are now ruined. That thing might as well be a cursed item, symbolizing your infinite cycle of resentment, dissapointment, betrayal, and rage.

Truth is you lost the war a long time ago. You just don't see it yet. Hey but what do I know? I'm just a random guy online.

Anyways good luck mate. I'm just serious when I say this drive you have is not going to lead anywhere good. You're on the warpath. Where's it leading too? Are you going to keep it in your pocket, whispering "my precious" .

PS: She is wrong, and I'm not defending her. I'm just saying maybe you should be THE man, take the hit. Then get up and move forward with YOUR life, and live as best you can without ever thinking of her again... .THAT will bend only way you regain real power over her.

If you actually get the ring? Toss it in the nearest volcano.

PSS: If I sound rude? It's just because people have been prancing around this for 100 plus replies and maybe a direct approach will work.

Because I DO understand completely. I've been there and react the same way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2015, 07:13:07 PM »

Scorpio: any nearby volcanos where you live? Love that. Yeah truth be told reaching out would probably give them even more power. It's a great fantasy though. In my case I will have no job if I say "no" to the business trip; I figure I better have a plan ready just in case the worst happens, he sees me and all hell breaks loose. Not to hijack JRT but any suggestions how to handle ? Tired of being afraid.
Logged

shatra
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1293


« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2015, 07:34:48 PM »

using a anonymizing texting up to text a friend that she believes to be a romantic interest and fish for information

-demanding that the last 4 people that I had a common connection with on FB not only unfriend me, but block me (they were inactive FB users). To even know who is still connected required a level of committed cyberstalking to review my friends list, go through eacvh and every name and see who is still connected and then make an appeal to them to block me

------Her texting your friend who she thinks is a girlfriend sounds like jealousy--is that correct?

------Trying to get mutual friends to block you could also be jealousy, or could be her trying to be possessive of people and not want to "share" them with you... .or is it something else?

Shatra

Logged
Beach_Babe
Also known as FriedaB
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2412



« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2015, 07:57:00 PM »

If his ex is doing those things, really,  is she letting go either?
Logged

once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 11506



« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2015, 08:21:13 PM »

there is a basic part of every romantic relationship that is referred to as "the power struggle", and its inevitable, its healthy, and its also where plenty of relationships die.

we are on the leaving board, which indicates our relationship is over. which means there is no longer a struggle for power. to continue to try to "take our power back" is to maintain an attachment, something we have all struggled with, but it is not detachment.

just a thought.
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2015, 11:37:16 PM »

using a anonymizing texting up to text a friend that she believes to be a romantic interest and fish for information

-demanding that the last 4 people that I had a common connection with on FB not only unfriend me, but block me (they were inactive FB users). To even know who is still connected required a level of committed cyberstalking to review my friends list, go through eacvh and every name and see who is still connected and then make an appeal to them to block me

------Her texting your friend who she thinks is a girlfriend sounds like jealousy--is that correct?

------Trying to get mutual friends to block you could also be jealousy, or could be her trying to be possessive of people and not want to "share" them with you... .or is it something else?

Shatra

Good question ... .it sure seems to indicate to me that she doesn't consider it over... .wouldn't her indifference be an indication of that?

She had already unfreinded all of my friends months ago and had, somehow, compelled most of her family and friends to do it as well. I wonder if this is some form of return volley? Anger... .a small token of it but about as much as she COULD do.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2015, 11:38:57 PM »

If his ex is doing those things, really,  is she letting go either?

I have to say that I wonder especially when she makes silent calls and texts friends and such. This later is a confirmation that she established and kept a dummy FB account for the ostensible purpose of stalking me I caught her in January and I guess that I caught her now.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2015, 11:41:01 PM »

there is a basic part of every romantic relationship that is referred to as "the power struggle", and its inevitable, its healthy, and its also where plenty of relationships die.

we are on the leaving board, which indicates our relationship is over. which means there is no longer a struggle for power. to continue to try to "take our power back" is to maintain an attachment, something we have all struggled with, but it is not detachment.

just a thought.

The power is that of my own... .a feeling of violation... .a restoration to a feeling of empowerment (plus I want my stuff back). I don't feel that it is an indication of a lack of detachment.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2015, 12:00:09 AM »

[/quote]
Since this post really does not at all relate to the OP, I am not going to respond directly other than to thank you for your thoughts. I also want to indicate that I will likely not throw the ring into a volcano once I have it returned and will keep it in a place I have not yet determined.
Logged
hurting300
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1292



« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2015, 12:13:48 AM »

JRT, haven't you learned anything Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). A narcissist goes silent for punishment. A borderline is always the VICTIM. You're the bad guy. Think about it. Two reasons why she disappeared, she is the VICTIM. Or she is punishing You.
Logged

In the eye for an eye game, he who cares least, wins. I, for one. am never stepping into the ring with someone who is impulsive and doesn't think of the downstream consequences.
rotiroti
formerly neveragainthanks
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 758



« Reply #120 on: August 25, 2015, 12:21:05 AM »

So the return of this ring would be closure for you? If so, I think I can understand that - much of the advice here is about deriving that sense of closure and validation from within. This is useful because it is powerful and lasting in my opinion... .While I don't believe a ring could offer that level of closure, I think it could be a very valuable piece in reaching that sort of resolution.

I say this because I was in a very similar situation. She eventually returned the ring to me and had she kept it I am sure it would've left unresolved and lingering emotions. The ring for me was the physical representation of my commitment and trust for her. The day before I left her I remember being worried about the ring. I had invested into an expensive cut, but came to realization that I couldn't put a price on my own freedom. Still there was value far beyond money  - I had the ring for a month prior to proposing. I can still feel the emotions when I first had it in my hands. I would be incredibly happy holding it, anticipating the moment of the proposal, and dreaming about the potential future.

When the ring had returned to me it was surreal. I was torn between happiness and sadness. Happiness that she returned the ring on her own volition and sadness that for me, the return truly meant the end of the r/s.

Looking back now I am really grateful for how it turned out. It hurt like hell, but at the same time I feel like everything... the universe solved itself out.

PS the volcano is a LOTR reference
Logged
ShadowIntheNight
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 442


« Reply #121 on: August 25, 2015, 12:22:03 AM »

JRT, haven't you learned anything Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). A narcissist goes silent for punishment. A borderline is always theVICTIM. You're the bad guy. Think about it. Two reasons why she disappeared, she is the VICTIM. Or she is punishing You.

Well Hurting, your post had the added bonus of helping me as well. Thanks.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #122 on: August 25, 2015, 12:24:15 AM »

JRT, haven't you learned anything Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). A narcissist goes silent for punishment. A borderline is always the VICTIM. You're the bad guy. Think about it. Two reasons why she disappeared, she is the VICTIM. Or she is punishing You.

I agree... .or both!
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #123 on: August 25, 2015, 12:28:55 AM »

So the return of this ring would be closure for you? If so, I think I can understand that - much of the advice here is about deriving that sense of closure and validation from within. This is useful because it is powerful and lasting in my opinion... .While I don't believe a ring could offer that level of closure, I think it could be a very valuable piece in reaching that sort of resolve.

I say this because I was in a very similar situation. She eventually returned the ring to me and had she kept it I am sure it would've left unresolved and lingering emotions. The ring for me was the physical representation of my commitment and trust for her. The day before I left her I remember being worried about the ring. I had invested into an expensive cut, but came to realization that I couldn't put a price on my own freedom. Still there was value far beyond money  - I had the ring for a month prior to proposing. I can still feel the emotions when I first had it in my hands. I would be incredibly happy holding it, anticipating the moment of the proposal, and dreaming about the potential future.

When the ring had returned to me it was surreal. I was torn between happiness and sadness. Happiness that she returned the ring on her own volition and sadness that for me, the return truly meant the end of the r/s.

Looking back now I am really grateful for how it turned out. It hurt like hell, but at the same time I feel like everything... the universe solved itself out.

PS the volcano is a LOTR reference

NaT... .wow, you really took the words out of my mouth with this, thank you very much. While the return of the ring means so much, retaining it and my motivations for doing so are identical to yours. I am sure that it will be a bit emotional when it is returned... .if it is ever returned. She told her lawyer that she left it here (DEFINITELY not true), and it prompts yet another mystery: whey is she working so hard to keep the ring?

I'll know in 2 weeks! 

Thanks SO much for your great post.
Logged
disillusionedandsore
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 172


« Reply #124 on: August 25, 2015, 06:40:22 AM »

I think I may get it,  she's not worth it but you are! I don't always believe in being the bigger guy (letting it go) sometimes it's about standing up for yourself and minding your own business (which is taking care of your feelings and your property). I can see how doing something like this is sending the message that her behaviour is not above the law... .A natural consequence of messing you about. Just one thing I would say though is be prepared for more lies... . mine lied in court,  lied right to the judges face and seemed to be being believed until I got a whole lot more assertive about why I was there (safety order). Scary but knowing what I know now,  predictable.  Best of luck with it,  please keep us informed.  As to her extreme avoidance etc... .Perhaps because she cant ever be wrong? I would say in my experience with my two exs and mom,  they must be seen as good/flawless/perfect /innocent,  my ex certainly wouldn't admit to any malice... .
Logged
Reforming
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 768



« Reply #125 on: August 25, 2015, 06:44:49 AM »

Hi JRT

After all the responses from different members I thought it was worth revisiting your original post.

Has anyone had any experience with their ex exhibiting extreme fear towards you after a breakup?

Quite a few of us have shared this experience. I have. It's painful, confusing and very hurtful. I'm really sorry you're going through this but unfortunately you have no control over her choices or her behaviour. You cannot force her to give you closure or renew contact no matter how much you may want to.

Excerpt
It’s coming on 11 months since I last spoke with my exBPD/(possible NPD) fiancé. She moved out while I was on a business trip and notified me via text that she had done so. She blocked me from contact in every way that one can think of and went as far as to convince her family and friends that they should do the same on social media. It was a thorough ‘scorched earth’ ending.

A handful of times over this period, I had circumvented her blocks and contacted her (she simply hung up) only to have her manipulate the law (police, lawyer friends) to threaten me with legal action if I ever attempted to do so again. Even more strangely, she had left a large amount of valuable property here that I saved to return of which, only through third parties, she instructed me to discard or donate (the new lawyer now wants the stuff returned!).

This seems to be a very clear message that she wants to have no contact that she had underlined to the extent that she's prepared to abandon valuable belongings. We talk a lot here about the importance of establishing boundaries and respecting them. Do you feel you're respecting hers?

Excerpt
She has some property of mine that I would like to have returned among those items, the engagement ring. I took her to Europe to propose and and ran out of time before the trip so I had to buy a cheapo Sterling silver ring as a ‘stand in’ ring while her permanent one was being built….it only cost $250 but I want it back as it means a lot to me.

Why does a "cheapo Sterling silver ring stand in" mean a lot to you?

Are you trying to make a point that by forcibly retrieving a cheap ring, that was given as a gift, you're rejecting her or punishing her for her behaviour? Are you trying to force contact with her even if it's through conflict? This is not detaching... It is validating her feelings of fear and victimisation.

Excerpt
Here is where this gets interesting: I sent her a text message which she had replied via an attorney that does work for her employer threatening a PPO (though he doesn’t practice this type of law AND went as far as to admit that he has no case against me). She tells him she does not have the ring and I file the suit. She then goes to the cops in the city she now lives in to try to get them to compel me to DROP THE SUIT (since the lawsuit is contact, and she doesn’t want you to contact her)! The cop wanted to scare me as well and ended up admitting that I broke no law and that they would effectively do nothing so long as I was lawful.

Yesterday, the lawyer calls me back to ask for particulars about the case since his client will not accept the summons (huh?)! He further explained that he will be appearing in court to defend her….a $750 an hour lawyer is going to defend someone over a $250 ring (that she still has!).

I was under the impression that her avoidance up until this point was based upon control and avoidance of shame, which still has a stitch of truth, I feel. But I strongly now sense that her extreme avoidance is real fear, like something akin to death will happen to her if she communicates with me or, especially, sees me.  It certainly explains how she has been able to convince so many people to apply pressure on me when there is no legal case at all. She doesn’t have to act, she is REALLY afraid!

YES SHE CLEARLY IS. She feels threatened, persecuted and frightened all for the sake of sake of $250 cheapo sterling silver ring that you gave her as a gift. Is this what you want? Will it help you heal?

Excerpt
I have not really come across this at all on this forum or anywhere else. Has anyone else experienced anything similar or have an opinion on this? Is seeing me forcing her to deal with her BPD shame?

Excerpt
I want to state my question again: What does she fear? What is causing this behavior? Or is it not fear at all but power and punishment? Anyone?

I think a lot of different posters have covered this well. Overwhelming shame, victimisation, fear, inability to regulate emotions etc


The ring is intrinsically worthless, from what you've said she abandoned belongings that were worth much more money, but as a small token of the time and feelings you shared with her it seems to have some importance to her. Do you want erase that.

Excerpt
if she should reappear and make a commitment to therapy and some other criteria, that I would be willing to think about things.

Detaching can be hard at the best of times but, breaking up with someone suffering from a BPD is incredibly painful and traumatic. Nobody here is telling you what to do, but I think it's important to explore the why... .

I hope things work out for the best and that you can heal and move forward

Reforming
Logged

shatra
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1293


« Reply #126 on: August 25, 2015, 07:00:05 AM »

"especially when she makes silent calls and texts friends and such. This later is a confirmation that she established and kept a dummy FB account for the ostensible purpose of stalking me I caught her in January and I guess that I caught her now."

----How do you know she has a dummy FB account, and how did you "catch" her in January?  Can you share details about this?

SHatra
Logged
ShadowIntheNight
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Posts: 442


« Reply #127 on: August 25, 2015, 09:58:50 AM »

"especially when she makes silent calls and texts friends and such. This later is a confirmation that she established and kept a dummy FB account for the ostensible purpose of stalking me I caught her in January and I guess that I caught her now."

----How do you know she has a dummy FB account, and how did you "catch" her in January?  Can you share details about this?

SHatra

JRT has been on this forum for quite a while. He has answers to that question in his previous  posts which can be found by looking at his profile. It might be easier to look there than start a brand new tangent on this thread which has gotten exceedingly long even for BPD family standards.
Logged
shatra
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1293


« Reply #128 on: August 25, 2015, 10:11:52 AM »

  JRT has over 150 pages of posts on his profile. Does anyone remember which post had this info? It might be easier if there's a link. or just to post the info here
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #129 on: August 25, 2015, 10:39:25 AM »

I think I may get it,  she's not worth it but you are! I don't always believe in being the bigger guy (letting it go) sometimes it's about standing up for yourself and minding your own business (which is taking care of your feelings and your property). I can see how doing something like this is sending the message that her behaviour is not above the law... .A natural consequence of messing you about. Just one thing I would say though is be prepared for more lies... . mine lied in court,  lied right to the judges face and seemed to be being believed until I got a whole lot more assertive about why I was there (safety order). Scary but knowing what I know now,  predictable.  Best of luck with it,  please keep us informed.  As to her extreme avoidance etc... .Perhaps because she cant ever be wrong? I would say in my experience with my two exs and mom,  they must be seen as good/flawless/perfect /innocent,  my ex certainly wouldn't admit to any malice... .

Thanks for your encouragement and thoughts, I really appreciate it! I have it in my mind that something wild will happen if she, in fact, shows up to court. I am sure that there will be lies and possible hysterics; I am incredibly curious as to what will happen.

Definitely will let you know!

Thanks again.
Logged
BorisAcusio
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 671



« Reply #130 on: August 25, 2015, 10:47:33 AM »

 JRT has over 150 pages of posts on his profile. Does anyone remember which post had this info? It might be easier if there's a link. or just to post the info here

Excerpt
I told the attorney about her stuff who told me to throw it away or give it away but I don't think that 'he realized what I had nor did she clearly. So I constructed a ruse: even though she blocked me on FB, I highly suspected that she was still monitoring my public posts. I took a picture of a large trunk that contained most of the important things and posted it on FB with the caption that I am getting rid of stuff in my cluttered basement, this is going into the trash if no one claims it by this weekend. Only one day later, her FRIEND contacts me via IM to see if she can pick it up (I refused insisting that my ex and my ex only will be the only one that I release it to accompanied by an explanation as to why she did what she did.... NON negotiable)... .I heard nothing back... .the entire exchange was childish and silly... .I wonder if it was ex just using her GF's account.

To be honest, I'm quite concerned where this might be heading. It seems to me that she actually claimed her belongings through a third party.
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #131 on: August 25, 2015, 11:08:55 AM »

"especially when she makes silent calls and texts friends and such. This later is a confirmation that she established and kept a dummy FB account for the ostensible purpose of stalking me I caught her in January and I guess that I caught her now."

----How do you know she has a dummy FB account, and how did you "catch" her in January?  Can you share details about this?

SHatra

I created a ruse back then. I made my profile in December (it had always been public in the past anyway, I just unhid it from her, even though she blocked me which means that she couldn't see me if she wanted, she is VERY MUCH the stalker type and I knew she would be doing this on all social media, including dating sites.).

She had left an incredible amount of stuff here. Among them was an antique trunk that was handed down from her grandmother. It was full of keepsake type of stuff and I REALLY wanted her to have it back. Not only was it important enough so that she saved it and its contents, but it was a trigger to me every time I walked by it. So I took a picture of it and put it on FB and wrote int he caption, "New Years resolution is to clean out the basement - this trunk and its contents are available to the first person that shows up here otherwise it goes in the trash on Saturday'.

Its a nice trunk so it got a ton of people that wanted it immediately. The very next morning, the FIRST thing in the morning, I got an IM from her GF wanting the trunk and her property. All that I wanted to know was if she was stalking me and this was confirmation... .must be every day ion fact to have responded that quickly. The convo with the GF was odd to say the least and I suspect that it might have even been my ex. My condition was that she come and pick her stuff up without condition but she had to do so in person. She swore at me a couple of times (mature right?) and dropped off the IM.

Yesterday, I noticed that my friend count on FB had not increased even though I met a bunch of new people and added them there. On a hunch, I checked to see if the 3 straggler relatives of hers were still there and confirmed that not only was I unfriended, but was blocked (more maturity). In order for her to see if they remained connected to me, would have to use an account other than her own (since I was blocked). THEN she would have to manually search through all of my friends (I have 1200 FB contacts) and THEN contact them and make a case for blocking and then SHOW them how to do it over the phone. Quite the considerable effort to throw a pebble at me huh? I never felt that she could possibly be this immature but holy cow, I am amazed!

As far as FB goes, there is some urban wisdom abut finding out who visited you but its phoney. There is no way to figure out who has been visiting your profile. 
Logged
JRT
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 1809


« Reply #132 on: August 25, 2015, 11:10:04 AM »

 JRT has over 150 pages of posts on his profile. Does anyone remember which post had this info? It might be easier if there's a link. or just to post the info here

Excerpt
I told the attorney about her stuff who told me to throw it away or give it away but I don't think that 'he realized what I had nor did she clearly. So I constructed a ruse: even though she blocked me on FB, I highly suspected that she was still monitoring my public posts. I took a picture of a large trunk that contained most of the important things and posted it on FB with the caption that I am getting rid of stuff in my cluttered basement, this is going into the trash if no one claims it by this weekend. Only one day later, her FRIEND contacts me via IM to see if she can pick it up (I refused insisting that my ex and my ex only will be the only one that I release it to accompanied by an explanation as to why she did what she did.... NON negotiable)... .I heard nothing back... .the entire exchange was childish and silly... .I wonder if it was ex just using her GF's account.

To be honest, I'm quite concerned where this might be heading. It seems to me that she actually claimed her belongings through a third party.

What are your concerns?
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4017


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #133 on: August 25, 2015, 12:04:49 PM »

Staff only

Locking this one up, it's surpassed the post limit.
Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2021?

Pages: 1 2 ... 5 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2020 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
40days_in_desert
Ahquei3s
alphabeta
Amethyste
Angie59
ArtistGuy70
AskingWhy
assumezero
At Bay
Avanzando
Baglady
Beneck
bigredneck
Bittlecat
Boll Weevil
calmboom
Cat Familiar
Chosen
Dnmtnbkr
drained1996
Eggshellsbroken
FaintTheGoat
FaithHopeLove
FindingMe2011
Forgiveness
freespirit
GaGrl
ggGreg
Gift to Myself
gotbushels
Harri
hopeandchoices
I Am Redeemed
Imatter33
Jazzy48
jdc
jones54
Jonthan
Katrinalove
Kwamina
l8kgrl
LLgreen
Longterm
lorymac
lovenature
loyalwife
lucidone
Manifest32f
MariannaR
Meridius
Methuen
mgirl
Minttea
Mommydoc
Mutt
narcdaughter2
needPeace
NorseWoman
Notgoneyet
oceanheart
oftentimes
Omega1
once removed
Only Human
otherlife
palynne
PeacefulMom
Pedro
pest947
podsnapG
ProudDad12
pursuingJoy
Radcliff
Raul
Recycle
Resiliant
Rev
Rosheger
Sad4Her
SamwizeGamgee
Sandalwood
SBBayArea
SCM
SerendipityChild
SES
Silverhope
Skip
songbirdtwo
StillStuck
Swimmy55
Teno
townhouse
truthbeknown
turtleengine501
Ventak
vinnie77
Violet00
wavewatcher
wendydarling
WhatJustHappened?
Whichwayisup
whirlpoollife
Wicker Man
WindofChange
worn_out
WTL
zachira
zaqsert

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!