I was always trying to control her (she says), help me understand

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi guys,

I posted a first thread in [L5] Staying but since then we officially broke up (she did) and told our friends and family. So there's no turning back and we are preparing arrangements for co-parenting but this is not the subject of this thread.

I have to understand why she felt trapped in the relationship and why she says that I was controlling her. Again yesterday, she was accusing me of this when we were discussing living arrangements and I was voicing my opinion about some of her options. She said that the tone of my voice (disapproval) of what she was proposing was a way of controlling her. I guess she's right to some extent and actually, controlling others is a trait of co-dependent people. So I need to understand that. I never controlled her on purpose but maybe unconsciously I was.

It is true that I would always voice my opinion about her choices if I thought she was making a mistake or there was a better option (e.g. cell phone plan). I always saw it as just trying to help out, because typically I do much more research about stuff than her. But I'm starting to realize now that every time I did that, I was not helping her (maybe I was at the beginning when she needed that), but I was "controlling" her in a way.

If my understanding is correct, that's quite a shocker to me and I so wish that she made me realize that earlier in our relationship (maybe she just didn't understand what was happening). I could have tried to improve on that. Obviously it's too late now but I still must work on it if this behavior is going to drive other future partners crazy like it did for her.

If I have to change, it's gonna be hard. I have a hard time understanding how letting your partner make a mistake that can be avoided is a "good thing" to do. I'm not allowed to give advice anymore? I guess there's a balance to be found... .? If my behavior was detrimental to my SO, I guess it could be for the kids as well. I understand that parents that are too controlling are not good (like my SO's parents). You gotta give some slack to the kids so that they can learn from their own (hopefully not too bad) mistakes.

[TooRational]

Hi guys,

I posted a first thread in [L5] Staying but since then we officially broke up (she did) and told our friends and family. So there's no turning back and we are preparing arrangements for co-parenting but this is not the subject of this thread.

I have to understand why she felt trapped in the relationship and why she says that I was controlling her. Again yesterday, she was accusing me of this when we were discussing living arrangements and I was voicing my opinion about some of her options. She said that the tone of my voice (disapproval) of what she was proposing was a way of controlling her. I guess she's right to some extent and actually, controlling others is a trait of co-dependent people. So I need to understand that. I never controlled her on purpose but maybe unconsciously I was.

It is true that I would always voice my opinion about her choices if I thought she was making a mistake or there was a better option (e.g. cell phone plan). I always saw it as just trying to help out, because typically I do much more research about stuff than her. But I'm starting to realize now that every time I did that, I was not helping her (maybe I was at the beginning when she needed that), but I was "controlling" her in a way.

If my understanding is correct, that's quite a shocker to me and I so wish that she made me realize that earlier in our relationship (maybe she just didn't understand what was happening). I could have tried to improve on that. Obviously it's too late now but I still must work on it if this behavior is going to drive other future partners crazy like it did for her.

If I have to change, it's gonna be hard. I have a hard time understanding how letting your partner make a mistake that can be avoided is a "good thing" to do. I'm not allowed to give advice anymore? I guess there's a balance to be found... .? If my behavior was detrimental to my SO, I guess it could be for the kids as well. I understand that parents that are too controlling are not good (like my SO's parents). You gotta give some slack to the kids so that they can learn from their own (hopefully not too bad) mistakes.

[peter5v10]

Wow it is eerie how similar experiences are from the SO's of Borderlines.  My SO voiced the same opinion many times.  We also have children together so I can relate.  Reflecting on it now I feel like my suggestions within the relationship were just that... suggestions.  In a healthy relationship suggestions foster meaningful dialogue.  What I have found, with what I believe to be my narcissistic partner, is that they take it as narcissistic injury.  So instead of conversing about it they internalize it and use it as justification for their actions.  Now once the relationship ends I have also found that unless it has to do with the kids (the kids have to be a subject of compromise) it is best to not give anymore advice or suggestions.  They will not appreciate it and most likely their response will send you into a spiral of self doubt.

[TooRational]

Yeah, I'm already trying not to give advice anymore but it's hard, especially if in involves money. We're not divorced yet so any mistake she makes about money affects me. If she incurs debts, these will be split 50/50 when we divorce.

I see a strong link between her aversion to receiving advice and her absolute incapacity to take criticism. It was next to impossible to give criticism to her, no matter how constructive I was trying to make it. For example, she has a tendency to leave the dog unleashed outside and our dog runs after people in the street, barking. Obviously this is unacceptable and needs to be discussed. Whenever I would bring it up, she would respond with a simple "alright" and end the conversation. The me, this "alright" sounded like "ok, stop pissing me off with your criticism again already, I'll tell you what you want to hear". I was looking for some kind of fault admission from her part, like "you're right, I shouldn't do that, I'll try to be careful". But that never came. She would never admit mistakes.

So to summarize, "Stop trying to control me with your advice and stop criticizing me".

So, how much of it is her being over-sensitive and me being over-controlling? I'm still lost.

[peter5v10]

I have been through the cycle of idealization, devaluation, and discard a few times with my ex.  Every time I would self reflect and think about the things she said and how I could have made things better.  It was only until this past time that I realized that there was nothing I could have done to prevent things from breaking down.  I can totally relate to your example with the dog.  I too would discuss things with her that had to do with the household, kids, dog, etc.  Now these things are not life or death but they are apart of the day to day quality of life that you and her share.  So they are worth discussing.  Mostly when I would brings things up to fix or to discuss she would give off a vibe that I was bothering her.   She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue.  Things would often escalate from there to the point where it feels like I'm the nag and she is easy going and carefree.  However once the issue that I was trying to bring up becomes a bigger problem then that would get blamed on me somehow.  So it would end up being a lose lose.  It doesn't sound like you were controlling... .rather just being proactive.

[TooRational]

She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue. 

EXACTLY. Same thing here. I wasn't satisfied with a simple "ok", so I pressed on. But then she complained that I was never satisfied, retaliating with things like "do you want me to kneel in front of you to excuse myself?"

It feels good to vent a little but I'd like to come back to the control issue. My initial question remains. I'd like to better understand why she felt controlled and how much I'm to blame in this whole thing (the co-dependency issue). Others care to chime in?

[hopealways]

It's their way of saying they feel engulfed, which is a hallmark of the disorder.  They don't know why they are feeling the feelings of engulfment because most don't understand their own disorder, so they rationalize their feelings of engulfment by calling it "controlling".

[Lunira]

How would you likely feel or respond if your partner kept haranguing you with what they perceive to be your faults, flaws, and failings?   Would you consider it helpful, or would you feel bullied?  

Do you enjoy being given repeated unsolicited advice?  Would you consider this an opening for a dialogue, or would you consider yourself as being talked down to/treated as a child?

Nobody likes that, BPD or not.

[JohnLove]

My partner with BPD was in a very controlling and abusive relationship before me with the father of her children. A pair of ladies from a social assistance program had made an appointment with a leading psychiatrist and this is when she was formally diagnosed.

Fast forward to our relationship. She forgot to mention that she was diagnosed BPD when we hooked up with the encouragement of mutual friends and things became serious enough to have the exclusivity talk.

Now after we broke up last year (we got back together after about 2 months) one of these women returned to provide my partner with assistance managing things and teaching tools for any struggles she was having as a parent.

After months of weekly visits the woman and her colleague wanted my partner to go to "counselling" or they would refuse to assist any longer.

Much later I was told the reason for their ultimatum was that she had found herself in another "controlling" relationship. Let's just say I couldn't be any more different than her ex but I am very concerned about my own character flaws adding to any problems I experience.

Now, I don't know if these statements by her are actually even accurate.

When I am providing her with accurate and helpful information about a predicament or situation she has found herself in to allow her to make informed choices to resolve it, I have lately been repeatedly told not to talk to her like a child, or treat her like a child.

I am a Leo, a natural leader, and pretty much epitomise the character traits of this astrological sign. I fail to see where I am controlling or giving unsolicited advice when she comes to me to self sooth, or for emotional counselling, or a dose of reality amongst her cognitive distortions and lack of touch with reality... .or as I like to call it what actually is happening.

After reading the two posts above I have had a realisation that I suspect it is her engulfment at play as she can never seem to be able to spend enough time with me and I haven't really considered this aspect.

Oh, the FOG. Sometimes these relationships seem next to impossible.

Any advice or clarity anyone could offer would be appreciated.

[Seeks]

I just received the "you will no longer be able to control me" text today. In a long rant, breaking up with me for the fifth day consecutive day (and probably the dozenth time in 5 years) She accused me of wanting power and control over her.

This has been going on for a solid week now, culminating from me helping her monitarily ( I exploit her being poor) and with the huge engulfment move of me trying to get her to put her engagement rings back on. (They have been off for quite some time)

It was explained here to me as "she feels a strong need to individuate and doesn't want to feel owned."

I think this is very true. She is shamed that she is not able to provide for her and her sons needs without help. She wants to feel successful and in control of her life. She is still searching for that sense of self. To be an individual. And when we invade, even with good intentions, they view it as an attack.

Every teenager wants to be independent (my gf is 35) and I think emotionally pwBPD are still stuck back in that mindset. Spouses can be viewed as a threat to their individuality just as their parents were. Their parents had control over them, giving them advise, telling them what to do, controlling how much money they were to have... .

This dynamic carries over into their relationships. And coming with it is the hyper sensitive feelings of not wanting to be controlled.

[TooRational]

Lunira, about unsolicited advice. Do I enjoy receiving them? Yes, absolutely, most of the time at least. I fail to see why this is bad if done in a respectful manner. It shows empathy towards the person. Let me give you an example. Say I hear on the radio that there's an accident on the way to work. I might give the unsollicited advice to my SO that she should take an alternate route because of this. How is that bad? I guess if I really wanted to absolutely refrain from any advice I would just talk about the accident and not my suggestion on how to avoid it. But I feel that it's splitting hair. This is walking on eggshells.

JohnLove, at least your SO was diagnosed with BPD, so at least that bit is clear. It's not for me. We share the same confusion about our apparent "controlling" behavior though.

Seeks, the second half of your post is EXACTLY the way she describes her feeling to me. I could have written the exact same words. Do you have any advice to provide or are you in the same boat than me, just trying to figure things out? I looked at your first post and our story has similarities. Very religious and controlling household for my SO but no sexual abuse (that I know of). As for my own youth household, I couldn't ask for better parents, although one could probably put a co-dependant label on my mom (caring more about others than herself) but my dad is not BPD. Another difference is that she's no slacker, unlike your case, she does most of the cooking and about 2/3 of household chores. But in my defense, she works 20h/wk and I work 40h/wk. I bring 85% of the family income. You don't seem to have children with this woman. I have to ask, what keeps you in this relationship? In any case, I would strongly advise against marriage until you fix your relationship.

I have been having long e-mail exchanges with our best mutual friends (a couple). I talked to them about co-dependency and this accusion of me being controlling. They reassure me that I'm not like that at all and it's simply my SO overreacting. They don't seem to buy into the co-dependency at all either. They don't like "labels" such as BPD either, so it's not much help to talk to them about BPD and co-dependency but as long as I avoid these words, they are very helpful.

Still looking for advice about the controlling aspect... .I seem to read conflicting things. If you're co-dependant, you're controlling. However, if you're BPD, then you are over-sensitive to any behavior that are remotely close to controlling. So? Which is it? How do we know where we fall on that spectrum?

[greenmonkey]

I was told I was controlling for the following

1. Changing water and cleaning a fish tank, Buying a new pump and feeding them.

2. Doing the shopping/cooking

3. Paying the bills

Remember she contributed nothing to the household whatsoever, financially or otherwise. In her very sick mind she considered this to be controlling. If I would not have done the above we would have starved, and had all utilities cut off, as she did nothing.

So heads you lose tails you lose

[Seeks]

T.R.

You are correct, we do not have children together. And because of the way she is I seriously doubt she would ever marry me. I think in order for marriage to happen for her she would have to do it within the first year of a relationship.

I used to stay in this relationship because I was madly in love with her and I was convinced I could fix things and get them back to the way they were. I had read that was not possible, but of course I had to find this out for myself. It took a long time but the realization finally hit home. Now i find myself loving her for the way she is, not in spite of it.

When the emotional bads hit I am in a better place to sluf them off rather than taking them personally. She periodically needs to emotionally dump onto somebody, at the current time it is me. Our break up seems very real and very final. I have however been in this position before, and emotionally I'm not so devastated. She may come back around, she may not. It's something you have to accept when you are in an emotionally charged relationship.

As for the controlling aspect. Instead of offering unsolicited advise, rephrase it as a question.

-There is an accident on the highway, would you like me to see if I can find an alternate route?

-I was reading about cell phone plans and they might have come up with a better option. Want to check it out?

If she gives you a negative response, blow it off and say no more.

Asking instead of telling goes a long ways. Put some of the power back in her hands, and let her make some mistakes. When we were kids our parents told us the right way to do some things. But invariably we did not learn from their mistakes, we still had to make our own.

I would suggest some space and some freedom of choice. Showing her she has value by asking for her opinion on some of the things you do will boost her self image on where she stands in the relationship.

It's all about balance. Think partnership.

[Agent_of_Chaos]

My ex used to say I was "nagging".  To a degree I think she was right.  You can words such as nagging, controlling, whatever you want... .and I probably fit the bill in her eyes.  The thing is, I was trying to get her to see the big picture.  I was trying to get her to see the long term effect.  I was trying to treat her like a healthy individual, in a healthy relationship, that tackled life as a team. 

A team.

I realize now that it would have been impossible.  I don't regret "nagging" her to reach out to her family more.  I don't regret "nagging" her to try and rebuild a relationship with her sister.  I don't regret seeming "controlling" when it came to finances.  I wanted to ensure she had enough money for her bills. 

I was trying to help her pave pathways to an easier life.  A better life.  A life of fulfillment.  I realize now it was a waste of my breath.

[CharWood]

Anything you do to hold them accountable for their unhealthy and damaging behaviors they deem to be "controlling." My ex is the queen of playing the "you are controlling" card.    Let it go in one ear and out the other. It is just an excuse to project onto you and let them play the victim role and make you the bad guy... .seriously.

[enlighten me]

The thing is that even though I didn't realise I was controlling looking back I can see how it can seem that way to my ex.

When doing the house up Most of the decisions where down to my ex. The actioning of them I did. I came up with a plan and tried to stick with it. If my ex deviated from the plan then I would get upset as she hadn't taken into account money, time and the knock on effect.

With shopping I would ask what she fancied for dinner. I can see this coming across as me pressuring her.

The problem as I see it is a communication one. Even though we talked about things we weren't on the same page. My justification for doing things didn't match hers so if I got my way then I can see how she could see it as me controlling her.

On the other hand there were things I did just because I thought they were the only sensible way of doing things. I realise that I can be quite inflexible. If something seems like the logical way to do it then I can dismiss others ideas.

[TooRational]

Thanks everyone. So it seems that everyone has experienced the "you're trying to control me" criticism but people seem at each end of the spectrum about how they feel about it. From "In her very sick mind she considered this to be controlling" and "I don't regret "nagging" her to", to "I can see this coming across as me pressuring her".

Seeks seems to be in the middle, suggesting alternate way of giving advice (asking).

You guys basically express all of my feelings about this "controlling" behavior. I sometimes feel at one end of the spectrum, guilty of controlling (I'm sure I did). Other times, I feel that I was just doing altruistic actions and she was overreacting.

So, I'm not closer to know where the right balance is. Even though we broke up, I still want to keep a good parenting relationship with her so this is important to me. She'll probably become even more reluctant to take any advice from me from now on. So I need to figure out how to share my point of view about the kids without it being seen as controlling or pushy. I'm not sure the "asking a question" trick would work in that context if I really insist on sharing my point of view.

I'll let her make her own bad personal decisions from now on (such as paying life insurance premiums for a 5k credit margin that she doesn't plan on using, wow) but I need to figure something out for the kids. Hey, maybe I'm ready for the [L5] Co-parenting board.

[enlighten me]

With my exs I realised she had as much right to parent her own way as I did as long as it didn't jeopardise the kids. One thing that this has done for me is cut down the worry and stress and give my children two different perspectives to parenting.

My interactions are kept to BIFF. I don't engage in arguments. I don't lecture them.

[TooRational]

Yeah, I'll try to give her as much freedom as I can but there is one subject that is almost certain to cause conflicts. Our son has a lazy eye and he needs sunglasses outside otherwise one eye is constantly crossed (it's worse when it's bright outside). If his eye stays crossed for too long he could lose his 3D vision eventually, so it's a big deal. Now, my wife doesn't seem very worried about that and constantly misplaces his glasses, forgets to put them on, etc. She brings back home the glasses I leave in his cubby at daycare and then forgets them the next day, so he has to spend full days without them.

Obviously, this is aggravating to me. It's not life and death but I want to do my best to give my child a chance not to be crossed eye and made fun of for the rest of his life. My wife doesn't seem to care as much, or at least doesn't think the glasses make a big difference.

Big conflict looming ahead when he's gonna spend whole weeks with her... .

[enlighten me]

I can understand this, My son has renal failure and has to do catheters. He wouldn't do them for my ex wife and rather than deal with it in a healthy way all she did was shout at him which made him not do them at all.

Is your son old enough to be taught to remember his glasses?

Could you speak to the day care and get them to keep hold of a pair of his glasses while he is there?

I know its not a cheap option but what about multiple pairs? One in your house, your car, day care etc. This way your son gets used to having them and wearing them so he may carry on doing it when with mum.

It is difficult when one parent will not do something as they don't see it as important. Even if you get her to agree its important it doesn't necessarily mean that she will adhere to it.

[hibye]

It feels good to vent a little but I'd like to come back to the control issue. My initial question remains. I'd like to better understand why she felt controlled and how much I'm to blame in this whole thing (the co-dependency issue). Others care to chime in?

I had the same "controlling" issues which i realized when i read the book by Mellody Beattie "co-dependent no more-how to stop control".

In every relationship no one is perfect, we as co-dependents are too caretaking as persons and this may seem too pushy for our SO. Melody Beattie explains that we can't change others if they are not willing to change by themselves so pushing and pushing won't help.

Don't blame yourself for this and give credit to your exBpd, just take care of yourself instead of taking care others .  

[Teereese]

I have been through the cycle of idealization, devaluation, and discard a few times with my ex.  Every time I would self reflect and think about the things she said and how I could have made things better.  It was only until this past time that I realized that there was nothing I could have done to prevent things from breaking down.  I can totally relate to your example with the dog.  I too would discuss things with her that had to do with the household, kids, dog, etc.  Now these things are not life or death but they are apart of the day to day quality of life that you and her share.  So they are worth discussing.  Mostly when I would brings things up to fix or to discuss she would give off a vibe that I was bothering her.   She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue.  Things would often escalate from there to the point where it feels like I'm the nag and she is easy going and carefree.  However once the issue that I was trying to bring up becomes a bigger problem then that would get blamed on me somehow.  So it would end up being a lose lose.  It doesn't sound like you were controlling... .rather just being proactive.

I totally relate, especially bringing up an issue, it becoming a bigger problem and my getting blamed.

I am by nature careful, thoughtful and proactive. My soon to be ex absolutely despised these traits. He would immediately go to, "you think you're so smart ... .perfect" ... .ad nauseum.

I became afraid to have an opinion on anything or say what I thought/felt for a long time. A situation would go bad and it would be my fault in his eyes for not speaking up.

Counseling helped me to regain myself. Of course, the marriage went downhill from there.

I felt insane for a long time.

I am feeling like a full blown, worthy, thinking, feeling human being since he left.

[Notwendy]

I think the nature of the situation is that the closer and most intimate one is with a person who has BPD, the more likely we are to trigger childhood wounds.

My mother's (BPD) FOO is very invalidating. One feels invisible around them. They always know exactly what you should do, and how you should do it and of course, their way is the only way and the best way  

My mother can take advice from the most remote person- her hairdresser's cab driver, and she will do what they suggest, but if I so much as hint at advice, she feels invalidated. From my perspective, it seems as if dad did everything for her, yet as she tells it, he invalidated her.

My H has a (IMHO) critical and verbally abusive father. If I try to advise or correct him in any way, I become his "father" and he is triggered.

This is just my opinion, but in these situations, I have to not sweat the small stuff and let natural consequences and experience be the learning method. This is also a component of parenting. One certainly does not let a kid make dangerous decisions- like take the car before getting a license, but for small ones- like being late for class- the best teacher is the consequences the school imposes on that, better than a parent nagging them to get dressed on time in the morning.

Mom didn't learn to manage money. Dad earned it, she spent it. My father passed away a while back, and left my mother in solid financial shape. We were afraid she would mismanage it. However, attempts  to advise or assist was met with  dysregulations, accusations that we were going to steal her money.  I would understand if she felt we were trying to control her. We realized that we had to back off It is her money after all- and she can do what she wants with it. Now, it is most likely true that we can budget it better, but we had to let her take care of it. She is not a child.

Finally, after some time of spending it, she has started to realize that she could run through much of her savings and is becoming concerned and more conservative with it. Now, someone isn't filling up the bank account and she has gotten the message that what she has is what she has. However, it took someone to not manage the money for her, and let her be in charge of it, for her to learn that.

My H grew up with a mother who did everything in the kitchen, and I have also done all of that. He likes to have his own food, but he doesn't throw it out past the expiration date. If I were to tell him to do that, or throw it out, this would make him mad. So, I decided, well, he will have to take care of the food he bought. It took a few stomach aches for him to figure out that it was not a good idea to eat food that has been sitting in the fridge much past the expiration date.

So, yes, nobody likes to be treated like a child, and stepping back means tolerating some mistakes. We all make them. I think it is important to intervene in situations that may be harmful, and also recognize when we can not intervene ( such as with mom's money) even if it would be in their best interest to do so. When we "manage" things for people, we can keep them from learning and growing from their own experiences.

[Duder]

My ex said I was controlling because I objected to her dressing like a slut to work.

[Notwendy]

You have the right to your opinion, but there is a choice to make and that is the pros and cons of sharing that with your spouse and how much control you have , or should have, over what she wears.

She's a grown woman and could walk out of the house naked if she wanted to.

There would be consequences for that, and also for dressing inappropriately to work.  You could tell her what to do, or let her learn from the consequences of how she dresses.

One option would be to say something, or let the office staff deal with a worker who is dressed inappropriately.

[Notwendy]

Not to look at it as right or wrong to give advice. I've had friends give me advice.

The difference is that they don't trigger me.

It may be that pwBPD can not easily take advice from people who are in their most intimate circle because of the potential for being triggered.

I have said the most innocent suggestion- something I might say to a friend, and it could set my mother ( or H ) off. If the intention is to be helpful. I might say to a friend as we are getting ready to pick kids up from school " Hey, I just was driving to the school and the traffic was all backed up, so maybe take another road to get the kids" .

My friend would say " thanks, I'll go the other way"

My mother would scream " don't you think I know how to drive? I know how to get to the school. How dare you say I can't "

My H might say " You don't need to tell me how to drive"  and then walk off in a huff.

In both cases, the intent- to help - didn't go through. It was taken as an insult.

For some things, you do intervene. Take the car keys from a friend who has been drinking. But sometimes, giving advice is a choice to do or not.

[TooRational]

[I wrote this reply before seeing your very last post Notwendy]

Thanks Notwendy for your insightful posts. Yes, I guess there's value in letting someone else make their own mistake, it's pretty clear. But isn't there value in providing some advice as well? Isn't learning from the mistakes of others better than making your own? I mean that's why we read books, go to school, attend conferences, etc.

I can totally relate with your example of your mother who can receive advice from anyone except her family. Isn't that infuriating? I can understand that you backed off and that was probably the right thing to do in that context. However, that doesn't make her behavior "okay".

I guess I'm trying to pass some of the blame to my ex. Yes, some of the actions I was doing could be seen as controlling, but at the same time, I think she must have been overreacting at times. Right?

[Now after reading your last post]

You anticipated my questions I guess. I don't have much to add. You're confirming that pwBPD can sometimes grossly overreact to simple advice. You choose to refrain from giving advice to avoid triggering them, I guess it's okay if you make that choice consciously.

The technique proposed above of first just telling the facts (there an accident on the road) and then asking if they want some advice has value in these circumstances. I've been trying just yesterday it kinda works. We were doing our budget for our life after separation and my wife was way confused. I asked her if she wanted my help. She said no. A little while later, more confused than ever, she actually reached out for my help. She was still very reluctant to receive any advice but was at least a little more open about it. I'll keep practicing that technique... .

[Notwendy]

I think you did a good job with that.

One thing we have to be careful about is our motive. If we are trying to keep the peace or not trigger them, then that is controlling too- walking on eggshells. Sometimes we do need to speak up and not be concerned if it triggers them.

Although giving advice can trigger them, that isn't the motive not to. It is because the intent of giving it doesn't work. If my intent to tell my friend about the traffic is to give her a heads up,  then I recognize that my intent does not work when dealing with mom or H. It have to recognize that what may be a kindness to my friend is not to them. I choose to get out of the way and let them learn. They can check the traffic.

Sometimes I make other choices. A part of the fridge was broken. My H fixed it but was griping and angry about it. He stormed off in a huff. Now, he had the choice to say no, and I would have figured something out. This isn't about advice, but realizing that, his being triggered is his trigger and not because I did anything wrong. Before I did the work in co-dependency, I would have been very concerned about his feelings and asked him what was wrong. This time, I figured, he is a grown person, he can tell me if something is wrong. I was polite about asking and thanked him for his help.

[Notwendy]

Another way to look at this, is what is my motive? Am I the best person to say/do this? Am I rescuing ( getting on the drama triangle) ?

One thing that triggers my H is telling him directions when he is driving. ( maybe that's a male thing? ). Even if some people get ticked off at this, they probably have the sense to not rage at their partner. But if my H takes a wrong turn, and my intention is to get back on the right road, then telling him does no good. The only thing that works at the moment is for him to drive until he figures it out. So, unless this is an urgent situation, its better to let him figure it out.

Which once got comical. After a drive our kid said to me" Dad was driving all around in a circle". To which I said "yes, he was" and that's all. Later, my H said, " I could have taken a more direct route".

We have to assume that, unless they ask, or are about to do something that would be harmful, it may be the better decision to let them learn it.

There's a lot of things my H does better than I do and sometimes it is better for me to ask him to help, but sometimes I have to learn how to do them too. I'm sure he would have stories about things I have done that were different from how he does them.

[Stolen]

I was told I was controlling because I didn't want the kids to eat in the basement.  This after I cleaned up after them untold times.  I thought they should do their eating in the kitchen.  Its a real nice kitchen. 

So - after weeks of asking what my xW thought I was "controlling", which was the sole reason she ever stated for wanting to get divorced - I got this:

Me: Please, explain to me what it is I control that bothers you so much.

She: [Veins bulging, eyes twitching] You don't want the kids to eat in the basement. So when I let them eat in the basement I have to worry about being in trouble with you the way I always was with my mother.

With that, I saw the flock of cuckoos approaching and decided it was no use to talk further... .

FWIW, we had never had a word of disagreement about the kids eating in the basement prior.  Never.

[Notwendy]

Sometimes it isn't the reason, but the "reason" in the moment. I am on the staying board, but there was a period of time in my marriage that I remember as horrible. I don't know why but for some reason, my H decided he had treated me poorly and was motivated to change. However, he had no explanation for those years, and if I asked he'd say " why look at the past, things are fine now" as if I was expected to magically erase the memories.

I had no idea what was going on with our relationship at the time. So my logical thinking was that, whatever he was upset about had to be a pretty big thing for him to treat me like he did for all that time- years. I kept asking him and he would avoid the question or say he didn't know. My thought was how could you not know why you were willing to ruin your marriage over something you did not know?

So he started to give me some answers- and they were all seemingly resolvable things- not something you mistreat someone for years over. I remember once he raged at me over dinner, and then gave me the ST- and I asked him why, and he said " I didn't like the soup" . From my asking him it occurred to me that his reaction to something seemingly minor was that that the meaning he made out of it was major- to him. Your ex wife gave you the clue by mentioning her mother. I think I was my H's father in his mind.

Of course it seems impulsive to divorce someone because they didn't want the kids to eat in the basement, but it's also strange to act like that over  soup. I don't think it really was the soup but the words they find in the moment to explain the feelings. I realized that all those years, the little slights that people have when married were interpreted as terrible things to him.

But I started on this thread because of the co-dependency and controlling question. Being co-dependent, I tried to analyze , predict and control these events, but I now realize, I have no control over how any one thinks.