The paradox of the disordered - addiction therapy

[NCEA]

The good is very good

The bad is very bad

They go from one relationship to another but THIS TIME they FEEL it's the real deal. They're enthusiastic about you and sweep you, and themselves, off your/their feet.

Then something goes wrong. That feeling of finally finding one's soul mate goes away almost as fast as it appeared.

They meet someone new and can't believe how much THAT person is their soul mate. It's uncanny!

You don't know it yet but for them it's simply a new cycle. Like a kid who replaces his toys every Xmas with the new fad, it's your turn to get booted out of the favorite toy list.

But you... .you're left damaged and confused. It's like when a tornado picks up a house and transports it to another state. What just happened?

You've experienced love but it was a confused manufactured love, so strong not despite but BECAUSE it was with a disordered person, who in his or her confusion was push pulling you and driving you mad, increasing the strength of the emotions artificially. Push pull push pull. Love you, love you not. Love you, love you not.

And then you hope to one day meet someone else who would give you those feelings.

But the problem is that such strong feelings are only possible when dealing with a disordered person. A healthy person who is stable, centered and not damaged will never be able to manufacture such emotions.

So you are left craving feelings that only the disordered can provide, fully knowing that such relationships are unhealthy and toxic, similarly to how a drug addict feels about his drug of choice.

And that is the paradox of the disordered. Only thru addiction therapy -  meaning NO CONTACT EVER AGAIN (giving up the drug)- you can clean your body from of the toxins.

Stay strong everybody with your NC. It's your only hope.

[blackbirdsong]

But what if, after some time, learning about BPD and its symptoms, you realize that you don't want the idealization phase with this person, you realize that you actually love 'normal phase' of the relationship, without the peeks (you being bad or you being the prince).

That you want to avoid the feelings of your partner that you are "someone who can save them"

And you realize that your codependent symptoms triggered your partner's behavior? A partner who actually knew this even before me, but fell for this roller coaster anyway.

And you are willing to work on them, not relevant if with your partner in a relationship or not.

So, basically, I am currently in the phase, after some therapy and self-learning, that I realized that I had the wrong concept of love. This was huge thing for me to admit. Even our society (movies, books, life stories, the general concept of love) learns us the wrong concept of love.

I am working still on this, but 'what-ifs' are bothering me, and I don't know how to stop them (well, I know but that is the ultimate step).

So, I am not craving for "the drug", I am craving for something that I think I can try differently know when I realized this and learned valuable assets.

Is this different type of drug?

[NCEA]

A "love" with a BPD is not love, it's a strong addiction emotion that's much stronger and unsustainable in the long run, our vocabulary doesn't have the right word to describe all the different shades, we use the same word for a mothers love and an affair love and your wife's love... .

With a BPD its more of a strong crush that's maintained by the push pull and reinforced with triangulation and mixed with sexual addiction. It's totally different than love , more potent but more destructive.

Come to think of it, discussing emotions is really futile.

 

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think that pwBPD are capable of real love, but it gets eclipsed by the high of the "crush."  Like with drug addiction, the high begins to feel normal, so pwBPD chase the high and forget what normal, stable love feels like.  Unlike a stable relationship, pwBPD experience the highest highs and the lowest lows.

[Rmbrworst]

It's sad, because I was looking forward to "getting bored" together.

You know, when the relationship has been going on for a long time, but you still love each other.  You're not caught up in the crazy high that is finding someone new, you're not having sex every 5 minutes, you're just content, happy, and sharing life together.

I don't think people with BPD recognize that.  Which is sad because I think mine would have made a great life partner if it wasn't for the drama.

However, love is hard to define and I do feel that I loved (and still love) my exBPD.  Not for the crazy sex and the intense emotions ... .I just loved him.  His nature, his sweetness, how simple he was, and mostly how we loved the same things.  Even looking back at his life before me, we had so many parallels.  Concerts we went to and things we did that were so similar.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's not love.

Discarding, acting out, and push pull are not love even though they create intense feelings.  But I did love him.  Very much.  Hell, we were friends before we dated and I was always fond of him.  I thought we were besties

I just wanted to be with my best friend

[GoingBack2OC]

Really great post NCEA. I dont know about one thing. I think my exGF who clearly is some form of cluster B; avoidant, borderline, narcissistic, she exhibits a lot of these traits. I thought she was a schizoid for the longest time.

I think she in some ways changed me. Or, at least, in this relationship. I started doing things (not right away), but sort of fighting the same way, reciprocating the same behaviors. It took a LONG time. But I'll say this:

Last Christmas (a year ago). I was hurting so much. I knew it was wrong, but I had to talk to my Ex. The one from 5+ years prior who I dumped, broke her heart, and she was married now.

I just had to call her. I was in a really dark place. I needed to talk to someone who truly knew the old me. So I did.

She was so kind to talk to me, for over an hour we talked. I explained how much I was hurting. It wasnt a "i still love you" kind of thing. It was a "I'm so confused with where I am, you remember be, you still know me even though you dont" kind of thing.

I asked her crying at the time "When we fought, did I call you names, like mean names? Did I say really mean things?". 

She responded:   "No we never fought like that, we hardly fought at all".

I broke down.

I responded "Ok, I just needed to ask---- I couldnt remember".

---  Now that said; I was with this girl for 4 years. And I never called her names, disrespected her, said terrible things. But during the course of my last girlfriend, who loved to call me horrible things, say things like "I hate you" "Leave me Alone" "Get out of my life" on a weekly basis (and far worse things)... .Somewhere along our 5 years, I picked up that behavior and started giving it back.

Was I not healthy? Or was I simply pushed so far and for so long that I started to mirror her fighting tactics. I am not sure. I have never prior to this past relationship been an angry person. Never called people names. Never said mean, terrible, hurtful things. Yet with her, I started doing just that. And in some ways it bled outside of our relationship.

Now I am healing, trying to at least. But I wonder a lot of times; did she do that to me? Or was it always there... .and just never surfaced.

[GoingBack2OC]

It's sad, because I was looking forward to "getting bored" together.

You know, when the relationship has been going on for a long time, but you still love each other.  You're not caught up in the crazy high that is finding someone new, you're not having sex every 5 minutes, you're just content, happy, and sharing life together.

I don't think people with BPD recognize that.  Which is sad because I think mine would have made a great life partner if it wasn't for the drama.

However, love is hard to define and I do feel that I loved (and still love) my exBPD.  Not for the crazy sex and the intense emotions ... .I just loved him.  His nature, his sweetness, how simple he was, and mostly how we loved the same things.  Even looking back at his life before me, we had so many parallels.  Concerts we went to and things we did that were so similar.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's not love.

Discarding, acting out, and push pull are not love even though they create intense feelings.  But I did love him.  Very much.  Hell, we were friends before we dated and I was always fond of him.  I thought we were besties

I just wanted to be with my best friend

You couldnt have said it better. Just getting bored together. I loved that with my past girlfriends. Just calling up, hey what are you doing... .nothing... .ok lets do nothing together. Like did you ever have days where you'd sit and say back and forth: What do you want to do... .I dunno what do you want to do... .I dunno, what do you want to do.  Ahhh love. Where you can just enjoy nothing together. Like Mia Wallace and Vincent Vega... .Isnt it nice when two people can just shut the f$ck up and enjoy a moment of silence together. --- That makes a lot of people well, damn uncomfortable, and restless. Not moving forward, or being "productive" drives some people crazy.

With my exBPDgf - just being chill? That was never ever ever on the table. Everything had to be planned, or fought for. She after the first year, took zero interest in a lazy day. She was always busy, always wanted to "be important" or "on the move". Being busy became or always was "her life".

I thought we'd be besties too. But we had talks about that. She had no interest in me being a "best friend". In the end she made it clear:

She wanted a manly man to lead, take charge, provide for her and stay out of her way. Not joking. She doesnt want a friend. She wants a "sponsor".  A man to provide, take what he wants, shower her with gifts, and let her do what she wants. All with super high drama levels.

Sigh.

[cosmonaut]

A "love" with a BPD is not love

Well, it may seem like this at first, especially when we are still in deep hurt about what has happened in the relationship.  There's really not much evidence, however, to support this idea.  In fact, there is far more evidence in the other direction.  pwBPD have a disorder that has a profound effect on their ability to maintain relationships, but that does not make their love any less real.  There is an article on the site from a young woman with BPD who discusses this very topic and what love means to her.  You might find it of interest.

Sometimes we may want to believe we were somehow tricked or bamboozled by our ex, but that's the easy way out.  That's a refusal to look at ourselves and the role we played in the relationship.  Self reflection is hard work.  It's much easier to blame our partner for everything.  If we are honest with ourselves, we will see that we made a great many mistakes, that we engaged in unhealthy behaviors, and we at times caused our partner pain too.  It's by looking at this that we are able to improve ourselves, and thus form healthier relationships.

[homefree]

Like a kid who replaces his toys every Xmas with the new fad, it's your turn to get booted out of the favorite toy list.

This reminds me of that song 'when she loved me' from toy story 2.

That song came on when I watched it the first time (2000, I think). I was in a bad place at the time, and I was completely surprised by it. I ended up sobbing uncontrollably.

I'm glad I didn't stumble upon that for the first time in the last 2 months. I might have broken in half.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, do not watch it.

[NCEA]

Again, the word "love" covers so much... .

Sure, there were emotions but they're specific for this type of relationship. It's even stronger than "love" in some ways , many ways, but also fleeting and destructive and addictive and short lived and unsustainable.

A "love" with a BPD is not love

Well, it may seem like this at first, especially when we are still in deep hurt about what has happened in the relationship.  There's really not much evidence, however, to support this idea.  In fact, there is far more evidence in the other direction.  pwBPD have a disorder that has a profound effect on their ability to maintain relationships, but that does not make their love any less real.  There is an article on the site from a young woman with BPD who discusses this very topic and what love means to her.  You might find it of interest.

Sometimes we may want to believe we were somehow tricked or bamboozled by our ex, but that's the easy way out.  That's a refusal to look at ourselves and the role we played in the relationship.  Self reflection is hard work.  It's much easier to blame our partner for everything.  If we are honest with ourselves, we will see that we made a great many mistakes, that we engaged in unhealthy behaviors, and we at times caused our partner pain too.  It's by looking at this that we are able to improve ourselves, and thus form healthier relationships.

[Apricot6]

NCEA Thanks great post.

Cosmonaut brave words, lots to think about there.

Rmbrworst I feel exactly the same. I did truly love him (as well as the high, the crush) and I still do.

Of course if there was no paradox, or real feelings involved there would be no relationship to detach from, or at least detachment would be a complete breeze.

[troisette]

A great summation NCEA, you said it for me.

Thanks.

[Moselle]

Interesting post.

My opinion is that this becomes an unhealthy dance between two wounded individuals. Both parties seem to believe that the other party is in the wrong. pwBPD believe they are in love, and I'm assuming the other party does too (I certainly believed that) otherwise the relationship just breaks up.

This dance is best described as a 'trauma bond'. Both individuals become enmeshed in a push pull dynamic which taps into a previously established notion that love is associated with the feeling of pain ( a childhood wound )

Both parties establish an equilibrium of dysfunction which both feel relatively comfortable with,  based on what was the norm in their family of origin.  

Three roles develop in this dance called Karpman's drama triangle. The victim, the rescuer and the persecutor.  When the dysfunctional equilibrium is off balance  one or both parties may shift roles to regain the unspoken equilibrium. This is the destructive side of co-dependence, where (instead of disengaging) the codependent takes up one or more of the roles and perpetuates the dynamic.  

Love is based as others have suggested on caring, intimacy, empathy, curiosity, compassion and friendship

[Fr4nz]

You couldnt have said it better. Just getting bored together. I loved that with my past girlfriends. Just calling up, hey what are you doing... .nothing... .ok lets do nothing together. Like did you ever have days where you'd sit and say back and forth: What do you want to do... .I dunno what do you want to do... .I dunno, what do you want to do.  Ahhh love. Where you can just enjoy nothing together. Like Mia Wallace and Vincent Vega... .Isnt it nice when two people can just shut the f$ck up and enjoy a moment of silence together. --- That makes a lot of people well, damn uncomfortable, and restless. Not moving forward, or being "productive" drives some people crazy.

With my exBPDgf - just being chill? That was never ever ever on the table. Everything had to be planned, or fought for. She after the first year, took zero interest in a lazy day. She was always busy, always wanted to "be important" or "on the move". Being busy became or always was "her life".

I thought we'd be besties too. But we had talks about that. She had no interest in me being a "best friend". In the end she made it clear:

She wanted a manly man to lead, take charge, provide for her and stay out of her way. Not joking. She doesnt want a friend. She wants a "sponsor".  A man to provide, take what he wants, shower her with gifts, and let her do what she wants. All with super high drama levels.

Sigh.

So, she basically wants a daddy! I think this is pretty common among BPDs... .

[troisette]

"this does not make their love any less real" - there are many different types of love. Some rewarding, nurturing, some high octane... .and so on. Can "love" that is destructive be defined as love? I guess that's a long discussion... .

I agree Moselle, we become enmeshed when we subliminally recognise a familiar pattern, albeit unhealthy.

Cosmonaut; it's not mutually exclusive, recognising why we became involved with specifics of behaviour and describing our response, is part of our  investigation as to why we were vulnerable.

I think NCEA's precis is a very good starting point for those investigations.

[cosmonaut]

"this does not make their love any less real" - there are many different types of love. Some rewarding, nurturing, some high octane... .and so on. Can "love" that is destructive be defined as love? I guess that's a long discussion... .

Let's put it this way.  If your ex's love was so awful, so destructive, so unreal then what on earth were you doing with your ex?  What were any of us doing?  Why are we so upset to lose that love?  Let's be honest with ourselves.  Let's admit that their love was very real.  It was more than real enough to draw us into a relationship with our ex to such a degree that the loss of it has us on a web forum trying to heal and recover from that very real loss.  If there was nothing of value to be lost, we would not be here.  It's very easy to want to say it was all their fault.  We were tricked.  It was all a lie.  That's extremely common among newer members.  And it's a fabrication pushed by certain other sites online full of terrible information about BPD.  It's not reality, however.  If it was, we wouldn't be here.  One of the most critical steps we can take in our healing is when we turn the attention to ourselves.    

[Scopikaz]

I Agree. In my case I made mistakes early on especially. But also throughout. Much of what she did were reactions to what I did. And then I reacted to how she reacted.  Don't get me wrong. I think if she didn't have either deep emotional issues and possibly BPD she may or may not have reacted like she did. And then certainly wouldn't have left so abruptly i think. But I have to wonder. Would it have happened eventually any how no matter how good I was

[bdyw8]

NCEA - what a great post and comparison to addiction.

I am recovery addict/alcoholic and I can tell you as a recovering addict, this relationship with BPD is EXACTLY like an addiction.  You know its bad for you, but you just can't stop. 

You elusively chase the brief high you get knowing full well that it will be followed by a massive comedown and depression following.  The higher you get, the lower you crash.  The lower you crash, the more you crave the high again.

The disease of addiction has two components, (1) and obsession of the mind, and (2) an allergy of the body.

(1) Obsession - this should be self explanatory.  When we're not using or in the cycle with our BPD partner, we are CONSTANTLY obsessing about them.  Which usually leads to a "relapse" or getting back together with them, getting back into the cycle (I love you, I love you not as NCEA said).

(2) Allergy of the body - with drugs and alcohol, when you put it into the body of an addict, it creates a really physical craving for the drug, which is why an alcoholic or addict cannot stop once they start using their drug of choice.  How I relate this to my relationship with my exBPD partner is this - I had a REAL physical craving.  The sight of her, her smells, her touch, her skin... .mmmmm I'm salivating just thinking of it... .I can't turn her down when she is in front of me, I HAVE TO HAVE HER.  And when I do, I'm back in again.

So I agree with NCEA - NO CONTACT EVER.  I have to do with her like I did with drugs and alcohol - absolutely cold turkey.  The no contact takes care of the physical craving, the allergy of the body.  But right now, I'm still left with the obsession of the mind.  So like I do with my 12 step program for drugs and alcohol, I pray daily that God, or whatever higher power you may have, remove my obsessive thoughts.

It took some time with drugs and alcohol, but eventually I was lifted of the obsession and I'm free of that now.  So I'm hoping with time and NO CONTACT, that I will be relieved of my obsession for her as well. 

I hope this helps someone as it does me.  No contact for me means I have her blocked on my phone, social media, everything.  She lives a block away from me and I don't look down her street.  If I were to see her, I look away immediately and I get away as quickly as possible before my brain tries to convince me to engage with her.

If you were recovering from drugs or alcohol, you don't walk into liquor stores or drive by your dealers house if you want to stay clean.  So I'm doing the same to recover from my addiction to my exBPD.

Stay strong!

[NCEA]

When people buy a $25,000 watch that is actually worth $250 if it wasn't for the "lifestyle" and "image" attached to it - are they buying a $25,000 watch OR a fantasy that's unreal and only exists in the reality of their mind, to burst as soon as they see someone else selling the exact same watch for 10% the price but under different brand?

It's fugazi.

When people present themselves as X, Y, Z - you fall in love with that XYZ person.

When you find out that they are not actually XYZ but a BPD and that it was all a mask... .Then you can ask yourself if it was real or not. For this to have been real she should have presented herself like this:

"Hi, I'm K and I'm emotionally 12 years old. So don't take anything I say seriously. My mouth is moving but it doesn't really mean anything. I'm repeating lines I've seen in movies and read in books. I'm not really sure about this whole life stuff but I'm pretending to, I hope you don't mind".

The emotions are real but they're manufactured by triangulation, push pull come here go away games with a person who mirrors you and had very little of their own personality.

So is it real love?

I think not.

"this does not make their love any less real" - there are many different types of love. Some rewarding, nurturing, some high octane... .and so on. Can "love" that is destructive be defined as love? I guess that's a long discussion... .

Let's put it this way.  If your ex's love was so awful, so destructive, so unreal then what on earth were you doing with your ex?  What were any of us doing?  Why are we so upset to lose that love?  Let's be honest with ourselves.  Let's admit that their love was very real.  It was more than real enough to draw us into a relationship with our ex to such a degree that the loss of it has us on a web forum trying to heal and recover from that very real loss.  If there was nothing of value to be lost, we would not be here.  It's very easy to want to say it was all their fault.  We were tricked.  It was all a lie.  That's extremely common among newer members.  And it's a fabrication pushed by certain other sites online full of terrible information about BPD.  It's not reality, however.  If it was, we wouldn't be here.  One of the most critical steps we can take in our healing is when we turn the attention to ourselves.    

[cosmonaut]

I am recovery addict/alcoholic and I can tell you as a recovering addict, this relationship with BPD is EXACTLY like an addiction.  You know its bad for you, but you just can't stop. 

This may be true for you, and I can certainly respect that, but it isn't for everyone.  There are plenty of members that maintain contact with their ex for any number of reasons including sharing children together.  No contact is not a rule, it is not necessary for healing, and it certainly isn't the best choice for everyone.  It's important to make this distinction for the benefit of all members when we start to have these sorts of pile ons about no contact.

[NCEA]

It's safe to say it's not *possible* for everyone but probably *best* for anyone who is able to . I can't see how staying in contact can allow for real healing. It's just like using the drug in low doses but you're still hooked. That can't be good for anyone.

I am recovery addict/alcoholic and I can tell you as a recovering addict, this relationship with BPD is EXACTLY like an addiction.  You know its bad for you, but you just can't stop. 

This may be true for you, and I can certainly respect that, but it isn't for everyone.  There are plenty of members that maintain contact with their ex for any number of reasons including sharing children together.  No contact is not a rule, it is not necessary for healing, and it certainly isn't the best choice for everyone.  It's important to make this distinction for the benefit of all members when we start to have these sorts of pile ons about no contact.

[cosmonaut]

When people buy a $25,000 watch that is actually worth $250 if it wasn't for the "lifestyle" and "image" attached to it - are they buying a $25,000 watch OR a fantasy that's unreal and only exists in the reality of their mind, to burst as soon as they see someone else selling the exact same watch for 10% the price but under different brand?

It's fugazi.

When people present themselves as X, Y, Z - you fall in love with that XYZ person.

When you find out that they are not actually XYZ but a BPD and that it was all a mask... .Then you can ask yourself if it was real or not.

The emotions are real but they're manufactured by triangulation, push pull come here go away games with a person who mirrors you and had very little of their own personality.

So is it real love?

I think not.

NCEA, I've tried to explain to you and provide articles on the site about how this simply isn't true.  I realize that you may not be ready to do some self examination about your role in the relationship.  That's not uncommon.  It takes time to work through our grief and anger about the relationship.  You've likely also been fed some false information regarding BPD from sites other than this one.  I certainly hope that we are not instructing members with such information here.  We strive for a holistic, clinically based understanding of BPD.

You are of course free to believe whatever you believe.  It isn't helpful to double down on this sort of refusal to look at our role, however.  There are members here that are ready to work on that, and it isn't productive to reinforce narratives like this that seek to shift the blame to our partners.

If you truly believe that your relationship was a fantasy, then what does that say about you that you engaged in that fantasy?  Are you ready to look at that?

[NCEA]

I've read that article. I'm talking here on a totally different level but if you can't / won't see it then you can Skip over my posts. (No pun intended)

What it means about me?

Not much. I trusted this woman with my heart way too quickly but I wasn't aware of how quickly and deeply this would damage me, so I'm not beating myself. I'm a trusting person, usually it's a positive trait.

[cosmonaut]

It's safe to say it's not *possible* for everyone but probably *best* for anyone who is able to . I can't see how staying in contact can allow for real healing. It's just like using the drug in low doses but you're still hooked. That can't be good for anyone.

The fact that you can't see it isn't proof of anything other than you can't see it.  You are insistent on this drug addiction analogy, but it just an analogy.  You are free to believe it, and if it is helpful for you then I am glad that you can make use of it.  But to proclaim that it is some sort of objective truth can't go unchallenged.  I am not trying to be severe or curt with you, but it is important for all members that we try to be clear about these matters.

[NCEA]

Fine cosmonaut , let's just blame ourselves, like some people blame the Jews for the camps, or rape victims for wearing too short dresses.

I wouldn't get married with her. It was an open relationship. We spent a total of 20 days together over a six months period. So it's not like my mistake was colossal , but I did fall "in love" with that persona she gave me. The reason she canceled me moving to the same city was probably because she knew I was half way to figuring out who she was. She ONLY does long distance ones.

But yes for those who spent years in an abusive relationship- they might have something to do with it too. But don't talk about MY relationship before you know all the facts.

[Scopikaz]

I see both sides. Some of us like me did make mistakes for sure. Others maybe not so much so. And trusting isn't bad for sure. Maybe trusting to a point of being a doormat is or overlooking clearly obvious signs or red flags is. Which again some like me are more guilty of. Can't we all just get along? 

[hope2727]

This is so well articulated. Thank you for sharing. Its just so sad because I for one genuinely love(d) him.


:'(

[Mutt]

Fine cosmonaut , let's just blame ourselves, like some people blame the Jews for the camps, or rape victims for wearing too short dresses.

You're right. We don't know what happened in your relationship. Everyone went through their experience uniquely and we're all here to center each other through difficult experiences.

I don't think that it's about blaming anyone honestly, but taking a look at ourselves in the mirror and learning about who we are.

[bdyw8]

This may be true for you, and I can certainly respect that, but it isn't for everyone.  There are plenty of members that maintain contact with their ex for any number of reasons including sharing children together.  No contact is not a rule, it is not necessary for healing, and it certainly isn't the best choice for everyone.  It's important to make this distinction for the benefit of all members when we start to have these sorts of pile ons about no contact.

Yes, I totally agree, Cosmonaut.  I was just sharing my experience in the hope that it may help someone else on this board.  Every situation is different and the solution may not be the same for everyone, but hopefully someone finds hope in my experience as I do from all of you too!  I for one am feeling thankful I did not have children with her although I wanted to when I was caught up in the cycle!  Cheers to you all 

[Skip]

Fine cosmonaut , let's just blame ourselves, like some people blame the Jews for the camps, or rape victims for wearing too short dresses.

To go with your "addiction analogy",  who should an addict blame?