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Author Topic: I believe I have reached my exhaustion point  (Read 503 times)
Oncebitten
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« on: January 11, 2017, 06:52:20 AM »

Finally I think I am there at the point where I truly have nothing left for her.  I can no longer shoulder all the blame for every problem of the relationship.  I can't take one more episode of how truthful and loyal she is and how terrible I am when I know it not to be true.  For months I have worked to regain trust and earn forgiveness.  No amount of anything has been enough to buy me more than a week of peace.  Worst part is, the begining of the relationship the part she speaks so highly of, before she broke up with me and I cheated on her (laughs you cant cheat if you aren't in a relationship) before I fell from that pedestal, we never had more than a few weeks of peace.  Any level of stability with the woman is impossible.  She can't stand it, the first time I invalidate a feeling or a thought it would all go to h3ll.  A off hand comment or a slightly insensitive joke... .and she blew up.  She cries and wonders why no one can love her as she is.  Shame she doesn't see how she sabotages everything around her.  I wasn't perfect, but I loved her good.  Despite the things she said to me I never once called her names or said derogatory things to her.  Never laid a hand on her. 
My greatest transgression was keeping the truth of what I did when while we were broken up from her.  She wraps herself in her cloak of truth, she is absolved of any wrong doing because she confessed all of her sins. Doesn't matter that she did what she did while we were together... .no she is perfect and I am scum... .everything that went wrong was my fault.  Doesn't matter that every time we had problems she ran to her ex so he could tell her how wonderful she was and how awful I was... .doesn't matter that every time we had a fight rather than stay and try to talk to me about it she would run away and block me everywhere... .but lets not forget that I am the immature one. So much bad, so much back and forth.  I became a mad so scared to speak his mind, terrified I might upset her.  I have swallowed so much hurt for her.  I know my envolvement with her has taken years off my life... .for a relationship that lasted little more than a year.  I have no idea what kind of wounds she has inflicted... .can't help but wonder how long it will take to heal or if I ever really will?
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 10:19:17 AM »

I love her and want to make it work... .but when is enough, enough.
My T told me to stop trying to repair the damage bc there was nothing left to do.
His words were... ."I have seen men do far worse and not nearly as much to try and earn forgiveness and be forgiven".

When do you quit?
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 10:32:05 AM »

Sigh I wish I knew when you quit. Only you can know that. But I think for me it was when there was more damage and tears than building toward a future and laughter. Good luck with your decisions.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 10:36:03 AM »

hope

she tells me she cries all the time... .but its all wrapped up in good times too.  I know she loves me and that I love her too... .hard to quit when there is still lots of love on both sides
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 10:39:32 AM »

When do you quit?

You quit when you're ready to quit is the short answer.

When the r/s was doing more harm than good and there are no signs of improvement is where my line was.

I'm sure that I could have continued to work with my x to see if we could salvage the r/s, but there were no true signs of improvement. The last week or so of my time with her, she changed her tactics and became nicer to me. That was all surface however.

When I found that she, and her flying monkeys, were stalking the social media accounts of not only me, but also my friends, it became apparent to me that things were not actually improving.

I'm a firm believer in the ability to repair any r/s and make it healthier as long as both parties commit to doing so. My x never committed to that however. One person can get the ball rolling, but it takes both people being on board to make it work. She never got back on board and didn't show any signs that she was ever really going to do so.

I'd be interested in hearing when others decided it was time to quit and What put them over the edge?
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 10:46:36 AM »

I know she loves me and that I love her too... .hard to quit when there is still lots of love on both sides

Here's an interesting thought that someone recently shared with me OB

Excerpt
It's easy to love someone, liking them is where it gets hard.

So, there is still love on both sides. Do you like one another though?

To continue with my "when I quit... .what was the final straw" post:

When I found out about the cyber stalking is when I realized that I didn't actually like my x. It was at that moment that it all clicked for me. Sure, I love her. I will forever be convinced that she loves me. But, we didn't like one another.

We constantly found fault in what the other person did. There were never many kind words anymore. We probably like things about each other, but didn't seem to actually like the other person at a level that is needed for romance.
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 11:04:11 AM »

I'm not sure where the line exactly is, or when to quit.  I'm married 19 years.  And it has been two years since enlightenment about BPD - and the watershed event that was - it was like getting paroled, no, exonerated.
I learned and made rapid growth. 

I reached a point that now I can't not see some things.  I am now acutely aware of manipulation, projection, blame, alienation, attempts at emotional and verbal abuse.  I see it all over the place in my marriage, and my kids. 

The love is gone, only because it didn't withstand the light of day.

The hope is gone because I have no more power to change the future. 

I think it's time to quit when the reality I see now, and can't deny, and can't hide from anymore, becomes too real, too life size, and too much to pretend that with more time and more effort, and a few more breakthroughs, that things will get better. 
Things have changed forever inside of me.  The outside will change soon.
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 11:11:01 AM »

I love her and want to make it work... .

You need a tall glass of cold water. Take this one - toss it on your face.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

The hard question here, is are you strong enough to do this relationship. A relationship with a person with BPD takes an immense amount of strength and self confidence, it takes a emotional intelligence, and it takes a good working knowledge of human behavioral tools.

You are down in the trenches with her - you have to rise above it.

Are you willing to do the work?
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 11:25:11 AM »

Skip


I have always believed I was strong enough to be with her, and more than willing to do the work.  The problem is she refuses to acknowledge that I have done anything.  She expects me to wave some magic wand and make her forget about what I did.  The worst part is that we have gotten back to a healthy spot and things seem to go along well then one of her friends will bring something to her attention... .something that may or may not pertain to me or us... .but she assumes that is does and the wheels fall off again.  No matter how long or hard I try, I cant get ahead with her basically because she won't let me.  I have begged, pleaded, asked and worked for forgiveness for months.  And yet at the first sign of trouble all old transgressions are thrown back at me.  I am told I am the worst type of man, and that she deserves better than me.  Must be nice to go through life without admitting fault. 

Again hard to do the work when at the first sign of trouble she runs away rather than stay and talk to me.  Been blocked before without a cross word exchanged, and gotten the you know what you did explanation in a text.  Me... .I have always been willing to do the work... .she has never been willing to simply forgive.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 11:26:58 AM »

Meili

I still like her very much, and if she could let go of what she is holding on to and forgive me I have no doubt we could make it work.  I have said it 1000 times... .I know I did wrong but damn cant a man learn from his mistakes and be allowed a chance at forgiveness
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 11:31:02 AM »

And yet at the first sign of trouble all old transgressions are thrown back at me.

Would you mind restating what she says about the transgressions to you. And then separately (another paragraph) what you say to her?
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2017, 11:49:53 AM »

I have always believed I was strong enough to be with her, and more than willing to do the work.

I think that the hard that Skip is speaking of is boundary control, listening with empathy, not being invalidating, being the emotionally strong one, working to improve yourself, etc.

I have begged, pleaded, asked and worked for forgiveness for months.

Do you think that this is an example of doing the hard work?
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2017, 12:17:11 PM »

Meili

No thats not work... .but being consistent, keeping promises, listening to every word when she was hurt or upset... .and always taking the high road are work in my mind
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 12:20:42 PM »

No thats not work... .but being consistent, keeping promises, listening to every word when she was hurt or upset... .and always taking the high road are work in my mind

How has that working out for you?
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 12:38:59 PM »

Skip

  well lets see... .ITS NOT

I have asked here, I have asked my T, I have read everything I can find on the subject... .Forgiveness must simply be given.  You cannot make someone forgive you, or will them to, or even earn it if they refuse to just grant it.  I guess my problem is that I have never come across someone that was unwilling to truly forgive even once behavior is altered... .the court system allows for forgiveness... .but not her
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 12:42:44 PM »

I have never come across someone that was unwilling to truly forgive even once behavior is altered... .

You mean "once the trust has been broken". Trust is a complicated thing. If a man cheats on his wife, the trust is broken. If he says, "I have cheated in the last 2 months", that is generally not restorative. It may actually be more damaging because it give the appearance that the trust could be so easy earned back. It implies if I violate it again, be good for 2 months, it will again be repaired.

In all that reading, you probably saw that part that says pwBPD (and ADD, and ACOA, and... .) have inherent trust issues - or heightened sensitivity to trust violations. They often have a history of feeling people have violated them. This is probably the #1 reason quoted to our members from the pwBPD as the relationship death blow.

If you are in a "I can't trust you", vs "you need to forgive me because I've now proven I'm trustworthy" debate, you are making matter worse.

This is a complex thing to rehab.

Would you mind restating what she says about the transgressions to you. And then separately (another paragraph) what you say to her?

How about trying this?
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 12:48:11 PM »

Forgiveness is not earned, as you state.  It is also not up to you, except that you forgive yourself.  If she can't forgive, that's up to her, and you walk away with your head up.

She's got you under control when she plays up on your guilt.  That guilt is what you can let go for your own freedom.  
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 12:54:19 PM »

Skip,

lets see... .I am a spineless weak man who destroyed our relationship with my childish actions.  I am solely to blame for our end, and I care not that I destroyed her in the process, I am a cheater and a liar etc... .you get the point.


I validate how she feels, and then try to talk her down... .eventually I get defensive... .sorry but you can only call a man so many names before he cracks and gets a little defensive. Try to talk about how I have changed etc... .

she comes looking for a fight and eventually she gets one... .if I try and extract myself from the conversation then I am a liar bc I promised her I would allow her to vent when she feels it... .of course that was bc the T recommended it and I would guess he thought it would subside on its own.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 01:00:38 PM »

you get the point.

Respectfully and sincerely I don't. There is a lot of highly emotional "feeling" words there. Be strong. Get us back to baseline.

I'm asking you to tell me, in calm clear terms (she has those days, right) what she feels happened and how she feels about it.  And then do the exact same for yourself - what do you feel happened and how do you feel about it.

We, you, have to see these conflicting narratives as a starting point to help.
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 01:08:59 PM »

Skip

sorry its a little raw, had the same argument for the 100th time last night.

I never know how its going to start but as soon as it does she goes from 0-60.  Sometimes its bc I say something that upsets her, sometimes its bc someone has brought something to her attention.

She brings up what I did over the summer.  She broke up with me, and instead of being alone with my feelings after the loss of the woman I love, I choose to take solace in another womans company.  Initially it was just someone to talk to, to vent to.  I became more than that quickly bc she wanted it to and I allowed it. 

My gf gets upset bc she feels I was trying to replace her, and not only that she believes that I did it with someone less than her, a less attractive, lower class woman.  This takes a shot at her pride bc she felt she gave her love to a man who lacks integrity and standards.  It devolves from there and that is when the name calling starts.

I do my best to validate her feelings, but I always fail.  I try to explain I understand how she feels about being replaced, but that was not my intent.  I explain that she really meant nothing to me and that it was not a relationship that we had and that was not what I was seeking.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2017, 02:41:01 PM »

Oncebitten, strong.

Right now you are in emotional dysregulation yourself. Like the intoxicated man who can't walk the white line, you can't clearly lay out two paragraphs - her reasonable narrative and your reasoned narrative. You are so completely focused on your narrative and so dismissive of hers, how can this go anywhere but down hill?  If you need proof, look at the 100 conversations you have had.

If you want to make this better, you have to self sooth and get to baseline.

The narrative you have written above is not her position at all. It doesn't mention the lie (s). Surely that is at the core of this. I don't know what your narrative is but it seems like part it is "I haven't lied in __ weeks" this problem is over. As I said earlier, this is conflict is feeding on itself.

I can't really give you any specific thoughts because you are not being clear on what the opposing positions really are... .so I can only make general comments.

Every time you counter her accusation that she lost trust because you lied with your narrative, you are invalidating her. When she says you behaved badly, let her say her piece and then say you appreciate her sharing and want to think about it and wait for her to shift the conversation or end it. Be ok with that.

Every time she goes into meltdown, stop and listen to her. If she get abusive, ask her to be respectful and you will listen. If she won't ask if you can pick up the conversation the next day.  There is only so many words that can be said about what happened, let her get them out.

Don't swarm her when she dysregulates. Give her space. If she goes silent, let her go silent. Silence is ok. She will self sooth. She will return to baseline. She will call back. That might take a few days... .be ok with it.

Validate the valid and qualify.  If she says you are a liar. Yes, I lied about A & B. I'm ashamed. I understand why this upsets you. If she says you tried to replace her, I did get involved with x just like you got involved with y - its upsets me, I know it upsets you too. If I tried to replace you I'd be with her, right. If she argues, don't counter. If you are speaking the truth she will eventually self sooth and see your point.

You will do better to back off, be OK with ambiguity, take responsibility, know when to retreat, do not give her a bat to beat you with, and give her space to self-sooth and return to baseline.

That's an approximate formula - with more details on the narrative and other members input, you can shape it much better.

You probably want to deal with this almost the opposite of the way are pursuing it. That has a much higher likelihood of success.

It will also help to consider that trust problems with people who have issues sometime can't be resolved. The best you can do right now is to create an environment where she can start working through her deep resentments on this issue.  It's not the surface skirmish that you have that causes the problem, its that they surface skirmishes are triggering the underlying resent of being lied to.

Do you want to see this play out in reverse? Read this members file. Watch how the boyfriend plays it (denying her wound) and how she systematically responds (constructive and first, then bichy, then not constructively, then destructively) and how the relationship falls apart. You are on this path... .get off.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=63476
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2017, 03:00:58 PM »

skip

you are right... .i am so frustrated to her bc I cant get out of those circular arguments... I try and she just keeps firing all barrels... .we acctually ended up talking today and essentially it came down to the fact that I cant just listen without being defensive... .and she is right
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2017, 03:10:08 PM »

For your sake and hers, will you make a commitment to learn the tools and study human behavior so that you can have a chance of making your relationship work. You will only get so many miscues before its unrecoverable. You can't depend on her to be the emotional leader.

Why not take another run at describing the two opposing narratives. Its so much smarter to do these things in times of calm.

I going to move this to improving and ask that you stay there and not board hop when you hit a down time.

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2017, 03:39:51 PM »

Skip

yes I will make the commitment. my fear is that I may have run out of miscues.

I will not board hop... .
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2017, 03:43:49 PM »

Skip, yes I will make the commitment. my fear is that I may have run out of miscues. I will not board hop... .

Oncebitten, be strong. The football game isn't over. Don't lose your head. Be cool. That's how champions roll.

Do the narratives. Get this started in the background - don't wait for the next crisis.

Nothing changes without changes. Let's do it.
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2017, 06:30:40 PM »

Quote from: SamwizeGamgee link=topic =304230.msg12835837#msg12835837 date=1484154251
I'm married 19 years.  And it has been two years since enlightenment about BPD - and the watershed event that was - it was like getting paroled, no, exonerated.

There is a forum member with the name of "Exonerated." (Interestingly, his screen name before that was "On_Parole." His marital story spans a full 40 years, several U.S. states, and two hemispheres, as he is "down under" now.

"Exonerated" has not been active here for a number of years, but I think he would offer you encouragement, Samwize.

Oncebitten, you listen to Skip!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 06:38:08 PM »

Katecat


I intend to... .thank you for the support I know skip is right... .I have to get this right on my end or it will never work
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2017, 07:42:25 PM »

Once bitten... .I just wanted to reach out to give you some support. I completely understand what you are going through and how difficult it is to use the tools especially when. like you said, the BPD is firing "all barrels". It becomes quite overwhelming when the profanity starts, they don't take a breath, they don't give you time to get a word in edgewise. I have sat for what seems like several life times listening to her, trying to validate her. There are times when I have agreed with her and she argues that I am agreeing with her.

I think Skip is right. Sometimes you just gotta take a break even as much as you want to keep trying to make your point, get the BPD to understand ( yeah good luck with that) where you are coming from. It is important for us to get back to baseline as well.

I signed myself up for a knock down, drag out BPD style "discussion" today. And stuck around ( well, stayed on the phone) far too long. And what did I get? A nice A** whipping, feeling battered and bruised emotionally. Pretty much ruined my day. I am home licking my wounds now and on this Board to get back to baseline.

Stay strong my friend.
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2017, 08:47:34 PM »

michel

Hey I am right there with you... .I always stay on too long for the knock down drag outs... .this might sound stupid but always did it bc I thought that was what she wanted... .she pretty much said as much. But she hates thats we never resolve anything when we fight now... .which is true... .it starts, and she attacks... .I do my best to validate, and some times I valudate the invalid... .which makes it worse... .my worda get twisted and used against me... .or if I pause and try to choose my words carefully I get accused of thinking of a lie
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2017, 09:14:32 PM »

it starts, and she attacks... .I do my best to validate, and some times I valudate the invalid... .which makes it worse... .my worda get twisted and used against me... .or if I pause and try to choose my words carefully I get accused of thinking of a lie

Once', you know there are article and posts about extinction bursts and impulsivity her - when a person with BPD goes into dysregulation, the best thing is to do is buy time. Time allows for her to self-sooth and return to baseline and since moods are so impulsive, the very thing that bothers her has a good chance of just going away. In a long distance relationship you have many tools to do this. Jumping in with full combat gear is crazy is like throwing gas on a fire.

I know you have little regard for the tools or learning the psychology - but it is your only chance to not get consumed by her ebbs and flows.

Someone posted this earlier. Listen to her discussion of how her moods shift.

Found an informative story of a BPD sufferer done quite well check out the link.
https://youtu.be/TeZn3kLXpyo hope some newbies to leaving board will find this helpful.


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