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Author Topic: I hit my BPD waif...more than once...  (Read 2083 times)
Paul84

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« on: September 07, 2017, 11:18:31 AM »

So - unlike many I caved under the symptoms of a BPD waif. I am an extremely congenial personality, otherwise. Aggression is a very slow thing to build in me. It is not instinctive by any stretch.

Here's what happened: I was with her for 5 1/2 with all the amorous trappings of the typical BPD waif FOG; mirroring, enmeshment idolising behaviour abound. Also child-like in tone when wanting something, seductive, and a liar. Words are just words with no depth of meaning etc

Like many of you here - she attacked areas of my self-worth relating to an extremely sordid childhood full of all the prerequisites that made me ripe for the picking and lonely... .namely my father and mother who used to hit me regularly for age-appropriate misdemeanours ... .let me tell everyone here, anger is a slow thing in me and disgust is even slower, but at this point I am beginning to taste both. She provoked and provoked and provoked, coupled with a female castration complex which always placed her in some unspoken "competition" with me and I was close to the apex of tolerance... .I had outlined why it was toxic etc

I provided her with a life for 5 1/2 years, I asked her to pay no rent, no grocery bills, no bills PERIOD. She was extremely damaged from her parents (alcoholics and neglectful and they abandoned the family regularly) and we stupidly (with hindsight) agreed she would use this time to mend herself and reveal what she meant by "the blackness that bubbled beneath the surface"... .I'm a person who can think the unthinkable so I was ready to accept the challenge ... .I'm also a sufferer of what folks might call "the white knight syndrome" or a rescuer or a lonely child... .

She kept gaslighting me and she kept provoking inflammatory situations even after, and this is no word of a lie, 5 hour blocks of convo trying to redeem her to a place of equilibrium and balance - when these ended and everything was restored to normal she would bizzarely try and project shame into me by withdrawing or by becoming momentarily distant at a key point in the communication process. Or dropping a very ambiguous remark intended to subtly shock which always landed like a handgrenade on the table when I interpreted what she meant by it. Tangents to irrelevant areas of discussion (usually metaphors, she'd focus on the metaphor instead of the actual issue), and this would be after hours of restraining myself by talking using mild manners and etiquette to reason and somehow find a middle ground... .


Eventually - and this is after 2 years of it... .I lost control and began hitting her for these CLEARLY outlined transgressions ... .wrong I know

I am not proud of it so spare the scolding remarks - there's nothing I have not tortured myself with vis a vis the doemstic abuse scenario. Further - she knows I am a peaceful man and went to work on that, in years she is an adult woman of 29, however in temperament; in intention, in deliberate plan, purpose, adaptation of means to ends, she knew exactly what she wa doing and when I could prove it to demonstrable in the final days of things that's when she decided (I believe) to stage one last incident


She left 2 1/2 weeks ago... .She walked out the door and said she was going to get stuff for dinner, I said ok. She took nothing but the clothes she was standing up in, iphone 7+, iPad and beats by dre headphones and several pairs of shoes which I bought ... .said nothing... .I sent the police to her home to make sure she wasn't dead... .the family said she was there, but the police didn't see her personally ... .they're going back... .

She left everything here,... .possessions you or I would likely run back into a burning building to retrieve; items that are not duplicitous such as childhood photo albums, all manner of clothes and recreational materials, all manner of documentation including passport, credit cards, and practically everything is still here... .

Here's my question... .

She blocked me on Whatsapp, changed her SIM card, but has not blocked me on Instagram. Instagram was/is a large part of her life. In fact - her Instagram still reads in the bio "Paul ❤️" but she has ignored my emails pleading with her to see sense and to click, I have attended anger management and told her this, but each time I did I always felt like I was giving her an excuse for Her behaviour by taking The high road time and time again... .as I did as a child

What's her plan ? She won't respond to the parts of the email that highlight the above or the parts which highlight that her belongings are still here and she should come and get them, even with a police escort (if she's "scared"


I have sent her 2 private messages on Instagram, both have been "seen" but ignored, and I'm still not blocked despite highlighting how confusing that was in my email to her


Her only responses to me in two weeks are as follow:

"Paul, thank you for your concern, I am in a safe place. Please do not contact me again"

"Yes, we are over. All the best going forward. Please stop contacting me"


in light of everything... .what do you think her intentions are... .


I haven't contacted her since Saturday (4 or 5 days ago)... .I'm not taking it too badly to be fair, but I would like one more attempt at this relationship with these new controls in place... .

As a disclaimer: all physical abusers should be burned alive, I would advise my sisters and my any woman never to go back... .

But wouldn't she cut me out of the picture entirely ? What is the game-playing in aid of ?


Warm regards guys and thanks for reading...
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flourdust
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 11:49:25 AM »

Hi, Paul. This is a good community for people who are in relationships with people with BPD, detaching from those relationships, or dealing with the fallout from detaching.

It sounds like your ex has left you, and she's been clear so far that she wants you to keep your distance. You should respect that.

You've said some strong things about people who commit physical abuse. You've identified yourself as one of them. You've somewhat acknowledged your problem (though much of your post is also deflecting responsibility) A good first step is taking anger management classes, and it's great that you've done that! Do you have a regular therapist as well? That could be very helpful.
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Paul84

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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2017, 12:37:50 PM »

Hi, Paul. This is a good community for people who are in relationships with people with BPD, detaching from those relationships, or dealing with the fallout from detaching.

It sounds like your ex has left you, and she's been clear so far that she wants you to keep your distance. You should respect that.

You've said some strong things about people who commit physical abuse. You've identified yourself as one of them. You've somewhat acknowledged your problem (though much of your post is also deflecting responsibility) A good first step is taking anger management classes, and it's great that you've done that! Do you have a regular therapist as well? That could be very helpful.



I am respecting it. I didn't obsess to the point I was lashing out in these emails or  turning up at the door of her parents home unannounced or anything. I haven't engaged in any form of slander. And no - I am really trying to take accountability and not deflect. Yes - I'm in anger management, currently. Although, when one considers the undue enrichment, both financially and emotionally of a swindler, I feel a bit odd doing it.


When someone laughs at your pain to your face, basically daring you to react... .I reacted. Now - it's wrong. If it was random Joe 6-pack on the street, I would stand my ground. I would not yield to emotions even when they involve disappointment, loss and trauma. I simply would not react, and I never have.


The level of investment after 5 1/2 years and the slowly peeling the petals off my "delicate flower" to discover what and who she was, add in the fact she has never supported, been there or helped me one issue

Instead my problems were largely ignored and anything that resembled a personal challenge made me inadequate and what's more she knew I found it emasculating to even open up in the first place about terminally private stuff and the fact that I did here and this is how it turned out

I'd like to why she hasn't cut me out completely if anyone else can relate to this unfortunate situation
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Meili
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2017, 01:16:56 PM »

Welcome

That all sounds like a horrible mess (to put it lightly). I'm sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I hope that you can get as much support around here as I have and are able to sort this all out.

I truly wish that one of us could answer your questions as to why she has not completely blocked you from her life or made arrangements to retrieve her belongings. None of us can ever know what is in the mind of another. The range of possibilities is infinite. It is really best to take things at their face value in these situations.

It's good that you're reaching out for support, we all need it. How can we best support you?

Reading the posts of others can be beneficial, and posting is generally cathartic, so I encourage you to do both. Healing from these relationships is a process. I hope that we can help you through yours.

I look forward to reading more of your journey.
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Kelli Cornett
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2017, 01:23:23 PM »

I agree with flourdust, hitting people is not okay in any circumstance. It's a very serious crime. I would suggest therapy as well and respecting the boundaries of leaving her alone, she even said it nicely.

There have been times with my ex BPD where I felt extreme anger but I did not do such things.


This would be a good time to take a look at yourself.
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Paul84

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2017, 01:37:59 PM »

^ I get it. It's not ok. Maybe something more constructive than idle predilection ? Even though what you're sharing is true. It's been acknowledged. Ad naseum.


Welcome

That all sounds like a horrible mess (to put it lightly). I'm sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I hope that you can get as much support around here as I have and are able to sort this all out.

I truly wish that one of us could answer your questions as to why she has not completely blocked you from her life or made arrangements to retrieve her belongings. None of us can ever know what is in the mind of another. The range of possibilities is infinite. It is really best to take things at their face value in these situations.

It's good that you're reaching out for support, we all need it. How can we best support you?

Reading the posts of others can be beneficial, and posting is generally cathartic, so I encourage you to do both. Healing from these relationships is a process. I hope that we can help you through yours.

I look forward to reading more of your journey.


Much appreciated... .and I have read a good hundred threads looking for one which resembles mine - no luck though, because far from being a "spotlight effect" case, this is just unusual in many ways. If it was me, and this is in human terms: delete everything everywhere. No contact period.


Here it is,... .I'm hoping (not expecting) that because of how dire her situation is at home, and it is dire straights, and because I'm the only guy who's even bothered with her in 29 years of life (her words), she might paint me white again - and I'm thinking, the more space I give her the likelier that may become


But again - when I ask myself - when I say "self, what would you do?" The answer is unanimous - I'd bail... .

The blocking could also be to provoke anger in me so she can show people how bad it was for her... .

The stuff left here could mean I was too abusive to come and collect it ? This is how she can show people... .

The leaving Instagram open could be to show off her new life - I've read here that many individuals who share this disorder have this ailment ... .


All in all it's sadistic what both of us did to each other ... .

Two wrongs doesn't make it right, it makes it even ?
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2017, 01:44:41 PM »

What would you do if she did reach out and was mean and nasty? What if she was nice? Do you think that you have changed enough to never act the way that you did in the past?
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Paul84

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 02:14:25 PM »

 
What would you do if she did reach out and was mean and nasty? What if she was nice? Do you think that you have changed enough to never act the way that you did in the past?


It's diffficult to explain, Meili... .because I've had a lifetime of verbal abuse I have extremely thick skin. In school when people were nasty, I have always been a quick-witted guy and can defuse those situations. In work - the same thing. Cool as air.

If she was nasty to me, I'd take it in stride and chalk it up to being a "telephone tough guy"... .ignoring emails, striking out from distance, blocking, cat and mouse games on social media ... .plus in my formative years I would have been a regular forum poster on forums where the dynamic of the forum is predicated on abusive (albeit in a playful way) themes,... .one of the guys we'll call it... .sh*ts & giggles... .none of it registers ... .but guys aren't usually passive aggressive and sneaky in those situations as it's all surface level stuff... .this is what I struggled with, with her. It was a mode of aggression I had never encountered before.


If she was nice I wouldn't reaggravate old wounds; I'd try and create a scenario where the two (physical abuse and the subsequent abandonment) cancelled each other out, and I would hit the ground running... .all laughs... .


Well - it would be insanity without delirium to say I've changed in the space of a week or three, but I've taken steps, despite feeling ridiculous


Seeing the Instagram private messages AFTER she said "please stop contacting me" and not blocking me is my only hope here outside of her leaving her bio as "paul❤️" when she is on Instagram liking posts everyday - I figure the rational thing to do there would be to say forget you, outright ... .

Also - very, very delicate belongings are left here en masse ... .and despite me asking twice for a status report on the freight, she refuses to acknowledge those parts of the emails... .another, possibly false hope ... .

Thanks for your time.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2017, 02:16:13 PM »

My ex blocked me ALMOST everywhere as well. I gave him no reason to do so, so I can only conclude that it had to do with what was happening in his life, from which I was being excluded now. So I don't know what it meant for him. For me it meant that I had confront my desire to reach out through that little chink in the wall--to calculate the risks and benefits. I did once, for some relationship housekeeping matters. So far I have not done so again. 2 years and counting.

Also--I get a sense that you haven't found your situation reflected in the hundreds of posts you have read. I remember feeling that way, too. There's an article on here somewhere with a statement to the effect of "Your relationship was special, but it wasn't THAT special." Very true, I've found, in my case.

I won't state the obvious about hitting people (especially intimates). I would however point out that the violence in your past relationship with this person is a major reason not to press for unwanted contact.
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Paul84

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2017, 02:24:48 PM »

My ex blocked me ALMOST everywhere as well. I gave him no reason to do so, so I can only conclude that it had to do with what was happening in his life, from which I was being excluded now. So I don't know what it meant for him. For me it meant that I had confront my desire to reach out through that little chink in the wall--to calculate the risks and benefits. I did once, for some relationship housekeeping matters. So far I have not done so again. 2 years and counting.

Also--I get a sense that you haven't found your situation reflected in the hundreds of posts you have read. I remember feeling that way, too. There's an article on here somewhere with a statement to the effect of "Your relationship was special, but it wasn't THAT special." Very true, I've found, in my case.

I won't state the obvious about hitting people (especially intimates). I would however point out that the violence in your past relationship with this person is a major reason not to press for unwanted contact.

2 years wow, Jesus that's resiliency on his part with regard to silent treatment, sorry about that, cold as ice ... .

I'm going to search that post - thanks for your suggestion

I totally agree with your last point - I'm in no position to bargain, that's why essentially I'm not. I'm treading as lightly as I can, I've sent some really intimate emails spilling my guts, since reading this forum I now know this was a mistake since BPD people shun the word "love" or anything loosely connected with it during these spats. shes responded extremely curt and tough, as you can see above. Which I suppose is deserving given the context, but that said, nobody is under any illusions as far as physicality and its manifestation with intimates
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2017, 02:27:19 PM »

Very little about these situations is rational. Trying to rationalize emotional situations is frustrating at worst and futile at best. I know that it's hard, but you'll serve yourself greatest if you try to stop. The axiom "It is what it is" is a great thing to remember.

It looks like you are trying to apply your logic to an illogical situation. That just won't work.

OK, you acknowledge that enough time has not passed to effectively change. That's a good realization. You have the time to focus on yourself and figure yourself out. It's a very worthwhile endeavor.

Like you, I have a long history of what I'll affectionately call "playful banter." Like you, I learned the hard way that when dealing with an extremely emotional person, that type of "fun" didn't work too well. I had to learn all sorts of new things about myself when that relationship ended.
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Paul84

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2017, 02:44:03 PM »

Very little about these situations is rational. Trying to rationalize emotional situations is frustrating at worst and futile at best. I know that it's hard, but you'll serve yourself greatest if you try to stop. The axiom "It is what it is" is a great thing to remember.

It looks like you are trying to apply your logic to an illogical situation. That just won't work.

OK, you acknowledge that enough time has not passed to effectively change. That's a good realization. You have the time to focus on yourself and figure yourself out. It's a very worthwhile endeavor.

Like you, I have a long history of what I'll affectionately call "playful banter." Like you, I learned the hard way that when dealing with an extremely emotional person, that type of "fun" didn't work too well. I had to learn all sorts of new things about myself when that relationship ended.


I hear you with both ears, Meili... .indeed with studied elegance... .


I don't think her decision to leave me was illogical, but this consistent childhood experience externalised into reality with the same emotional reaction of anger and jealousy was taxing, at best. Her primitive denial mechanisms when she was corrected for it became more apparent to me as I was able to use a keen sense of analysis and circumspection in an adaptive, rather than defensive fashion. Initially. The problem was when self-definition came into it she began getting more and more petulant


... .and boy howwwwwdy, do I agree with the unease they have with humour. My thinking is the shame-prone adult learns as a child that what he/she wished to display with pride and excitememt was regarded by others as laughably small, cute, or underdeveloped. She would ALWAYS take this demeanour and need to be talked out of it. I've met her father, this is who he is personified. Berates the kids, stunts them emotionally, drinks and abandons whenever it tickles him pink

She distinguishes shame and guilt by identifying shame as a failure to reach her ego ideal (a falling short) of being Americas sweetheart
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 03:40:36 PM »

She left everything here,... .possessions you or I would likely run back into a burning building to retrieve; items that are not duplicitous such as childhood photo albums, all manner of clothes and recreational materials, all manner of documentation including passport, credit cards, and practically everything is still here... .

I would nicely pack these things, label the boxes, and put them in a storage unit near to where she lives or works and send her the combination to the lock. Pay the rent for sixty days. Send her a card that says, I know you will need these things so I put them in storage so that you can have access to them at your convenience. Please feel free to change the lock. The contract is paid though __ /__ / __

This is the high road. She will appreciate it.

But wouldn't she cut me out of the picture entirely ? What is the game-playing in aid of ?

When we are upset, we can see things in a distorted way. All of us have been there.

When people break up, its not expected that they block there partner on every line of communication. Frankly, I have never blocked an ex on anything and it didn't mean I was playing a game.

She left in a way to obviate any discussion on the matter. Her messages to you are clear. At least for now, she wants you to leave her alone for as long as she wants to be left alone, maybe forever. There is no ambiguity here. No indication of a game.

What's her plan ? She won't respond to the parts of the email that highlight the above or the parts which highlight that her belongings are still here and she should come and get them, even with a police escort (if she's "scared"

To get out, clean. There are lots of reasons she doesn't want to talk. She may be afraid she will change her mind. She may be afraid that you will be good for a while, but it will happened again? She may be resentful and want you gone forever. She may be following the directions of a DV agency that helped her out, but required certain conditions on her part (e.g., not going back). She may just want space.

My first thoughts when reading he notes she sent was that they were written by a professional.

I haven't contacted her since Saturday (4 or 5 days ago)... .I'm not taking it too badly to be fair, but I would like one more attempt at this relationship with these new controls in place... .

I hear you. Here's the deal. She likely had help in all of this, either at the time or after, so she is going to have other people watching for resolve to break and pumping her resolve back up. It's a big barrier to overcome.

If you chase after her, you will likely see an escalation from her or her support network - maybe a protective order.

Your best bet is to lay low right now.

What type of things did you tell her in the communications that you sent?
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Paul84

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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2017, 04:12:22 PM »

I would nicely pack these things, label the boxes, and put them in a storage unit near to where she lives or works and send her the combination to the lock. Pay the rent for sixty days. Send her a card that says, I know you will need these things so I put them in storage so that you can have access to them at your convenience. Please feel free to change the lock. The contract is paid though __ /__ / __

This is the high road. She will appreciate it.

eeeeeeeeeee - I hear you, and I have seen this option exercised and suggested in numerous threads I have come across. I don't think this is the route I'd like to take. To me that's going too nuclear too soon. It's saying it's over, and thats my position.

When we are upset, we can see things in a distorted way. All of us have been there.

When people break up, its not expected that they block there partner on every line of communication. Frankly, I have never blocked an ex on anything and it didn't mean I was playing a game.

I disagree. This was not as simple as breaking up. I hit her. That's in the same league as rape, molestation of a child, dismembering a body and all other forms of miscreant behaviour. I'm coming onto the forums under the assumptions she's gone, forever. But has left ambiguous signs that it's not over on an app she uses every minute of the day. Further - she uses the app for photography accounts exclusively - it is not an account where friends and family are added, as she has lost both. So it isn't anything to do with impression management,... .making it More of a head melt as to why she can't block and delete as standard protocol would dictate in this situation

She left in a way to obviate any discussion on the matter. Her messages to you are clear. At least for now, she wants you to leave her alone for as long as she wants to be left alone, maybe forever. There is no ambiguity here. No indication of a game.

I understand what she's said. I understand the explicit nature of the content and the behaviour expected of me in light of those instructions. outside of a few surprised "what the heck?" type of moments I haven't been acting desperate or forthright or aggressive

Think of her as an individual poorly equipped for disciplined thinking, think of her resolve as being porous at best and think,of the fact that she has not resigned herself to cutting me out completely. I don't approach her or this with that type of arrogance but I have it filed away in my mind based on experiences. I don't want to sound cracked here and adopt a philosophy of "an abnormal reaction to an abnormal situation is normal behaviour" but there's nothing normal to me about how this is being handled ethically outside the distance she needs to maintain. All contact should have been cut. I hit her.

To get out, clean. There are lots of reasons she doesn't want to talk. She may be afraid she will change her mind. She may be afraid that you will be good for a while, but it will happened again? She may be resentful and want you gone forever. She may be following the directions of a DV agency that helped her out, but required certain conditions on her part (e.g., not going back). She may just want space.

All plausible... .

My first thoughts when reading he notes she sent was that they were written by a professional.

Yes -  this is the most significant part of your post - good job identifying that. I couldn't make sense of the tone, either. Since I am a professional and she has always admired my writing style maybe she wanted to mirror me. But I absolutely have never been spoken to as "short and sweet" as that before by her. I've read however that people who suffer with this disorder can turn to black ice at the drop of a hat. She has no money to afford a professional anything.

I hear you. Here's the deal. She likely had help in all of this, either at the time or after, so she is going to have other people watching for resolve to break and pumping her resolve back up. It's a big barrier to overcome.

If you chase after her, you will likely see an escalation from her or her support network - maybe a protective order.

Your best bet is to lay low right now.

The family she's with is as toxic as they come. They will not be pushing her to come back for no other reason than to sabotage the potential for her to individuate from whatever cult that father has up there, it's warped.

What type of things did you tell her in the communications that you sent?

Laid it all bare - went to great pains to take account of my actions, I had told her she scared the sh*t out of me disappearing like that and I'd informed her the police would be out just to check up. I asked her to talk and I said I'd give her all the time she needed to get to that place. I was not aggressive, even though I've really been shafted/fleeced. But I'm willing to overlook it on this occasion because It is a matter beyond reasonable complaint.

It's a gift and a curse, but I have been given an overdeveloped sense of empathy by the man upstairs so I can easily and readily put myself in her shoes, which is what I did and which is what I've been doing since we got together. I was conjuring images of how scared she must have been leaving and how I'm struggling with the current arrangement. and that maybe throwing me a bone after 2 weeks would be indicative of something positive ?

I try and get to assert herself and voice her issues with impunity (her dad and mother would never listen, instead scolded her for having needs), and I was trying to change that to no avail, apparently
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 04:35:24 PM »

Domestic violence is about control.

eeeeeeeeeee - I hear you, and I have seen this option exercised and suggested in numerous threads I have come across. I don't think this is the route I'd like to take. To me that's going too nuclear too soon. It's saying it's over, and thats my position.

Doing this says her needs are above yours. If you don't do this, you are basically exercising control by holding her passport, etc. hostage to force contact. It's a counter intuitive move and I'm sure its frightening. Buy nice packing material - maybe even some organizers and containers. Label the boxes so she can work out of them (not have to unpack it all) and so that they can be brought back if she wants.

Man to man - keeping this stuff is false security. Its evidence of more of the same. It will work against you.

Laid it all bare - went to great pains to take account of my actions, I had told her she scared the sh*t out of me disappearing like that and I'd informed her the police would be out just to check up. I asked her to talk and I said I'd give her all the time she needed to get to that place. I was not aggressive... .

Good. Now follow it up with action - you have few ways to send a sincere message and returning her property is one of them. You could even leave a small card that says nothing more than... .I'm sorry. I was wrong. (example).

I'm encouraging you as "family member". I am not trying to sell you, though. I am not wanting to tell you what to do. This is only advice - and it only works when you embrace it in your heart.

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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 05:02:06 PM »

Domestic violence is about control.

Doing this says her needs are above yours. If you don't do this, you are basically exercising control by holding her passport, etc. hostage to force contact. It's a counter intuitive move and I'm sure its frightening. Buy nice packing material - maybe even some organizers and containers. Label the boxes so she can work out of them (not have to unpack it all) and so that they can be brought back if she wants.

Man to man - keeping this stuff is false security. Its evidence of more of the same. It will work against you.

Good. Now follow it up with action - you have few ways to send a sincere message and returning her property is one of them. You could even leave a small card that says nothing more than... .I'm sorry. I was wrong. (example).

I'm encouraging you as "family member". I am not trying to sell you, though. This only works when you embrace it in your heart.

I feel domestic violence is a result of a skewed sense of entitlement

With regard to her needs being paramount by comparison - Skip this is because her needs are* above mine, in this instance*. There is no question in my mind I'm the one who needs to humble myself. I work in mergers & aquisitions, this is a pretty aggressive field of endeavour at the best of times and not for the faint hearted - I can deal with a BPD waif standing on my head. I can put on my "big boy pants" and see it through - they do not strike any submissive bone in my body since submission is a stimulus I am not programmed not to feel based on my own upbringing

xxxxxx knows I deal with people I disdain through omnipotent devaluation and mockery and make people laugh rather than depression and submission and hiding under a bed with a crucifix in hand perspiring in fear and guilt... .and for some strange reason it's always worked

Can you theorise more with me your ideaology related to control in this matter... .I've relinquished all control, or so I thought ?  I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting ... ."here's everything gift wrapped in a nice candlelit pink bow for you, thanks for f*cking off on me"

I dunno man, I'd need more insight.
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 05:14:22 PM »

I feel domestic violence is a result of a skewed sense of entitlement... .

It's been well studied. Look for the word coercive control in the literature (or google search) This might help: https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm

To put this in M&A terns, look at my comments as expert opinion for the due diligence on one aspect of your acquisition strategy.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

This is a very tough subject. I hope you feel it is making progress. Let's get some other members involved here.

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 05:15:18 PM »

I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting

In whose eyes?

In mine, it shows caring, respect, and kindness. All of which are admirable traits.
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 05:17:53 PM »

It's a gift and a curse, but I have been given an overdeveloped sense of empathy by the man upstairs so I can easily and readily put myself in her shoes, which is what I did and which is what I've been doing since we got together.

i think this line of thinking is likely to trip you up - you are speculating as to why she didnt block you on instagram. this situation is not dire because either of you have been reading the other well. it got me, many of us tripped up, confused, and working against ourselves.

Excerpt
Think of her as an individual poorly equipped for disciplined thinking, think of her resolve as being porous at best and think,of the fact that she has not resigned herself to cutting me out completely.

this might also be a false sense of security. its not putting yourself in her shoes. it doesnt match up with the situation in hand (the indications she has sought outside resources).

if you want her back, you need a plan that is solutions oriented. powerful demonstrations like the suggestion to put her advice in storage, and with great care. you may be right that her resolve is not at 100%, though it is likely those around her are going to be pushing it there.

To me that's going too nuclear too soon

the best advice youre going to get is not going to be intuitive. the fact is this:

Excerpt
I had told her she scared the sh*t out of me disappearing like that and I'd informed her the police would be out just to check up.

will be seen as aggressive, and anyone around her will tell her just that. putting her stuff in storage shows respect.
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 05:26:07 PM »

It's been well studied. Look for the word coercive control in the literature (or google search) This might help: https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm

To put this is M&A terns, look at my comments as expert due diligence on on aspect of your acquisition strategy.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

This is a very tough subject. I hope you feel it is making progress. Let's get some other involve here.




Haha ironically - you know it's the literature that helped me beat my parents - my dad was frantic when he found out my iBooks were waterlogged in cluster b personality disorder related literature, but I understand you're speaking about empirical studies which obviously I'm in no position to contest. Coercive control it is. Read it and weep.

Although I am not controlling, in any way shape or form. I'm confident that way. She could go wherever she wanted, see who she wanted, wear what she wanted, speak how she wanted, I'm a firm believer in individuality because attempts were made to control me as a child in this way, my parents put clamps on exhibitionism and as I advanced from a child to young adult; it's one of those key ingredients that make a realtionship successful so I never splashed around in the "control" pool, at least to the best of my knowledge. Absent-mindedly I have it seems.
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2017, 05:31:18 PM »

In whose eyes?

In mine, it shows caring, respect, and kindness. All of which are admirable traits.


In my partner's eyes,... .she comes from a long ancestral lineage of pseudo con men, failed sociopaths and other unsuccessful, uneducated deviants. Actually most of them should be put away in the interest of public hygiene given what I know. This is each male in her family tree, excluding none. Their collective response to my "romantic overture" would be a chorus of laughter at my expense,... .I know, who cares right ? These people are recidivists and socially disinherited - so who gives a sh*t what they think ... .I hear you... .

Loving them to death won't do it - facing the music eventually will

Or nothing
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2017, 05:35:51 PM »

Hi Paul84,

Forgive me, but I feel a little confused by your thread.

Excerpt
This was not as simple as breaking up. I hit her. That's in the same league as rape, molestation of a child, dismembering a body and all other forms of miscreant behaviour.

You want her to come back to you, risking more of the same for herself?  If you were looking in from the outside and it was a friend or loved one who was being abused, what would you tell them to do?  I'm imagining that you would hope that they left that situation and would encourage them to stay that way when they decided upon it.  You've mentioned yourself that she should run.  At the same time you are stating that what she did in leaving was cowardly.  I'm not sure I'd agree and if she wants no contact from you, is willing to effectively lose some very important possessions to get away from you, then I'd say that it pretty much points to the fact that this woman fears you.  That is normal following domestic violence and a direct indication of the control exerted by creating that fear response.  So leaving that situation takes bravery and is a healthy decision on her part.  Not in any way abnormal.  

She is safeguarding herself and holding her belongings only gives the impression that you are exerting further control over her.  :)oing as Skip suggests is a wise move if you truly hope to ever regain her trust enough to have a healthy non violent relationship in the future.  In whatever capacity she chooses.  She has a right to decide without your influence what she does from this point, so this may be your ONLY opportunity to do the right thing by her and show her that you are capable of that.  I don't see it as a romantic overture at all.  I see it as showing that you can be better than the man she is seeing you as presently.

Regards getting support for domestic abuse, I'd be surprised to hear that there would be a charge for this anywhere.  I am not in the USA, so hold my hands up if I'm incorrect on this.

Consider what Skip and Meili are saying to you.  They are giving you good advice here.
  
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2017, 05:36:08 PM »

i think this line of thinking is likely to trip you up - you are speculating as to why she didnt block you on instagram. this situation is not dire because either of you have been reading the other well. it got me, many of us tripped up, confused, and working against ourselves.

this might also be a false sense of security. its not putting yourself in her shoes. it doesnt match up with the situation in hand (the indications she has sought outside resources).

if you want her back, you need a plan that is solutions oriented. powerful demonstrations like the suggestion to put her advice in storage, and with great care. you may be right that her resolve is not at 100%, though it is likely those around her are going to be pushing it there.

the best advice youre going to get is not going to be intuitive. the fact is this:

will be seen as aggressive, and anyone around her will tell her just that. putting her stuff in storage shows respect.


How can that be seen as aggressive ? Come off it... .she disappeared! I didn't know where she went, she had no money, nothing... .you know who'd be the first rattling my cage if something did happen and I DIDNT call the police ?

Both the cops and the family would be knocking on the door wanting answers and asking why I didn't follow up on it with a police visit ... .I called the police (missing persons) and they told me matter-of-factory I had to report her as missing... .

Their inquiries demanded I give a home address, so I obliged

This is not aggression, this is a caring act
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2017, 05:39:26 PM »

Hi Paul84,

Forgive me, but I feel a little confused by your thread.

You want her to come back to you, risking more of the same for herself?  If you were looking in from the outside and it was a friend or loved one who was being abused, what would you tell them to do?  I'm imagining that you would hope that they left that situation and would encourage them to stay that way when they decided upon it.  You've mentioned yourself that she should run.  At the same time you are stating that what she did in leaving was cowardly.  I'm not sure I'd agree and if she wants no contact from you, is willing to effectively lose some very important possessions to get away from you, then I'd say that it pretty much points to the fact that this woman fears you.  That is normal following domestic violence and a direct indication of the control exerted by creating that fear response.  So leaving that situation takes bravery and is a healthy decision on her part.  Not in any way abnormal.  

She is safeguarding herself and holding her belongings only gives the impression that you are exerting further control over her.  :)oing as Skip suggests is a wise move if you truly hope to ever regain her trust enough to have a healthy non violent relationship in the future.  In whatever capacity she chooses.  She has a right to decide without your influence what she does from this point, so this may be your ONLY opportunity to do the right thing by her and show her that you are capable of that.  I don't see it as a romantic overture at all.  I see it as showing that you can be better than the man she is seeing you as presently.

Regards getting support for domestic abuse, I'd be surprised to hear that there would be a charge for this anywhere.  I am not in the USA, so hold my hands up if I'm incorrect on this.

Consider what Skip and Meili are saying to you.  They are giving you good advice here.
  


I've conceded to all of this already... .

I'm bouncing ideas around off people and considering their input.

The manner in which she left was cowardly, in my opinion. Not the reason.


Returning the stuff is a very valid point - maybe I haven't explored the idea of "being the bigger man"... .since I felt being the bigger man was saying come and get it if you want it, bring whoever with you. Police, whoever.

I just know the act won't be interpreted how everyone here's is saying - you merely have to spend 10 seconds in that world to figure this out

But it raises interesting questions in my head, I've set a date for October 1st for her to get it, otherwise it's clearly off and I'll do the right thing by sending it back. Even though my motivation isn't to do he right thing... .it's to ensure she's not using this stuff to mark her territory so the next girl has problems; to ensure she is not using me like she did throughout the relationship as a storage unit; to ensure she isn't just lazy and procrastinating, which is also a trait of hers
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2017, 05:47:15 PM »

Apologies - too quick off the mark  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I know you seem to be accepting of the situation from your perspective.  What I am trying to do is paint a picture from her perspective and from that of the people who are no doubt supporting her.  If that be a DV agency, then leaving as she has would probably seem to be the safest way and least likely to result in any further abuse.  High conflict situations are not recommended and nothing stirs up emotion like a partner announcing they are leaving.
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2017, 05:47:23 PM »

You have received some really excellent advice from every poster on your thread. Advice that is wise to heed.

I can see you're upset by what has happened and from reading what you've posted, it's been a slow pressure cooker that eventually exploded. The big concern here, and I think the one most are addressing (as they should), is the fact that the "explosion" was domestic violence.

You have given us all a bit of background on yourself. Your childhood. You seem to have a grasp on all you went through. You understand there were experiences that shouldn't have happened and you seem to resent them. You've even made multiple mentions of how those experiences have shaped who you are. Now, let's break this down for a second:

You experienced levels of abuse as a child. Verbal, emotional, so on so forth. You did not like that. Of course not, no one would. As a child those abuses were methods of controlling you. They were painful experiences. With all that being said... .Domestic violence/abuse as Skip said is control. It's a different form of control than emotional and verbal. But one type of abuse is no better or worse than another. Here is my concern: there seems to be a great sense of ease within how you explain and then defend your reasoning for turning to domestic violence as a "release" - Yes, you do acknowledge how wrong and deplorable it is however youve followed it up with a "but" each time unburdening yourself of any responsibility for taking that path.

Again, as Skip stated, not wanting to take the high road and give her the opportunity to get her things without seeing you and/or a potential confrontation (negative or not) is an attempt at controlling how and when she can have her things. The second half of your final paragraph is a shining example of how, whether or not you can fully see Skips point, it is in fact something you are doing in order to control the situation... .

"I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting"

Trying to force her into a situation where she has to see you in order to get her things is holding control of the situation. An attempt at forcing an interaction. Possibly to get the answers you seek. Possibly to get your own closure. Only you know the answer to that.

Just to touch on some overall things from each post... .

Here's what SHE can control:
- choosing to not have any further contact with you. And politely requesting you do not contact her
- choosing to delete you off instagram... .or not
- choosing to leave... .with or without her things
- in keeping with the above: choosing when and how she retrieves her things
- choosing to not explain herself for leaving how she did
- choosing to place herself into whatever environment she feels is best for her currently

Here's what YOU can control:
- choosing to respect her clear request to not be contacted any further
- choosing to give her an option of retrieving her things on her terms
- choosing to allow her to feel how she is feeling... .maintain your focus on your feelings as they are the only ones you can control
- choosing to explore yourself and why the "pressure cooker" evolved into what it did
- choosing to work on yourself while allowing her the freedom to do the same for her


Again, not to harp on the domestic violence, however right now there really is no leg to stand on. She has made her decision very clear to you. Very formal. Very cut and dry. We have all made mistakes, some to a higher degree than others. At some point or another we each have to do work on ourselves to learn why we did what we did and grow from them. Channeling your energy and focus on your own self awareness may be better spent
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2017, 05:55:06 PM »

How can that be seen as aggressive ? Come off it... .she disappeared! I didn't know where she went, she had no money, nothing... .you know who'd be the first rattling my cage if something did happen and I DIDNT call the police ?

this is your perspective and it makes perfect sense to me. it isnt necessarily her perspective, or that of those around her. when we offer advice, that is what we are taking into account. your intentions vs how they may be perceived.

Returning the stuff is a very valid point - maybe I haven't explored the idea of "being the bigger man"... .since I felt being the bigger man was saying come and get it if you want it, bring whoever with you. Police, whoever.

I just know the act won't be interpreted how everyone here's is saying - you merely have to spend 10 seconds in that world to figure this out

But it raises interesting questions in my head, I've set a date for October 1st for her to get it, otherwise it's clearly off and I'll do the right hug by sending it back

paul, october first is a significant amount of time to wait on this, and yes, by that point, its just cementing a broken relationship, and will be perceived that way. or she will make arrangements to get it. dont construe the fact that she hasnt claimed her belongings as "leaving a door open" - do have an approach that she hasnt claimed her belongings, and that gives you an opportunity to make a powerful demonstration of amends.
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2017, 06:00:07 PM »

You have received some really excellent advice from every poster on your thread. Advice that is wise to heed.

I can see you're upset by what has happened and from reading what you've posted, it's been a slow pressure cooker that eventually exploded. The big concern here, and I think the one most are addressing (as they should), is the fact that the "explosion" was domestic violence.

You have given us all a bit of background on yourself. Your childhood. You seem to have a grasp on all you went through. You understand there were experiences that shouldn't have happened and you seem to resent them. You've even made multiple mentions of how those experiences have shaped who you are. Now, let's break this down for a second:

You experienced levels of abuse as a child. Verbal, emotional, so on so forth. You did not like that. Of course not, no one would. As a child those abuses were methods of controlling you. They were painful experiences. With all that being said... .Domestic violence/abuse as Skip said is control. It's a different form of control than emotional and verbal. But one type of abuse is no better or worse than another. Here is my concern: there seems to be a great sense of ease within how you explain and then defend your reasoning for turning to domestic violence as a "release" - Yes, you do acknowledge how wrong and deplorable it is however youve followed it up with a "but" each time unburdening yourself of any responsibility for taking that path.

Again, as Skip stated, not wanting to take the high road and give her the opportunity to get her things without seeing you and/or a potential confrontation (negative or not) is an attempt at controlling how and when she can have her things. The second half of your final paragraph is a shining example of how, whether or not you can fully see Skips point, it is in fact something you are doing in order to control the situation... .

"I will surrender her stuff on command... .but the way she acted was cowardly and I'm going to look like a simp if I make this as formulaic as you're suggesting"

Trying to force her into a situation where she has to see you in order to get her things is holding control of the situation. An attempt at forcing an interaction. Possibly to get the answers you seek. Possibly to get your own closure. Only you know the answer to that.

Just to touch on some overall things from each post... .

Here's what SHE can control:
- choosing to not have any further contact with you. And politely requesting you do not contact her
- choosing to delete you off instagram... .or not
- choosing to leave... .with or without her things
- in keeping with the above: choosing when and how she retrieves her things
- choosing to not explain herself for leaving how she did
- choosing to place herself into whatever environment she feels is best for her currently

Here's what YOU can control:
- choosing to respect her clear request to not be contacted any further
- choosing to give her an option of retrieving her things on her terms
- choosing to allow her to feel how she is feeling... .maintain your focus on your feelings as they are the only ones you can control
- choosing to explore yourself and why the "pressure cooker" evolved into what it did
- choosing to work on yourself while allowing her the freedom to do the same for her


Again, not to harp on the domestic violence, however right now there really is no leg to stand on. She has made her decision very clear to you. Very formal. Very cut and dry. We have all made mistakes, some to a higher degree than others. At some point or another we each have to do work on ourselves to learn why we did what we did and grow from them. Channeling your energy and focus on your own self awareness may be better spent


I hear you, coupla three things, though

1. Storage is aggressive. Here's the key, pick up your sh*t or they charge you.
2. Opting to give her the choice on how she retrieves her things is what I have suggested
3. I understand each man is responsible for his actions and that pinning it on childhood is pathetic

The reason I always have to use a "but" is the same reason the relationship was so fraught with dysfunction. It wasn't just me waking up one morning and throwing caution to the wind and hitting her reflexively, she's a textbook masochist and provokes the hostility as a means to a sexual end. I became convinced. I had told her to stop and to confine this stuff to the bedroom and to explore further her psychosexual development and identity, and we could wield that stuff into something more favourable for both of us, she just wouldn't conform, because yeah, way too controlling right ? Ehh


The mother was the same, the grandmother and the sisters - all of them
They wore men down to little nubs, and the men stayed angry and helpless

Think of what the kardashians do to athletes - not to get mixed up in magical thinking here or anything - but a similar dynamic
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2017, 06:03:17 PM »

this is your perspective and it makes perfect sense to me. it isnt necessarily her perspective, or that of those around her. when we offer advice, that is what we are taking into account. your intentions vs how they may be perceived.

paul, october first is a significant amount of time to wait on this, and yes, by that point, its just cementing a broken relationship, and will be perceived that way. or she will make arrangements to get it. dont construe the fact that she hasnt claimed her belongings as "leaving a door open" - do have an approach that she hasnt claimed her belongings, and that gives you an opportunity to make a powerful demonstration of amends.


Got'cha
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2017, 06:12:28 PM »

Storage is aggressive. Here's the key, pick up your sh*t or they charge you.

You could present it that way.

Alternatively, you could pack it up in really nice containers that she will like and keep... .

What are your alternatives? Sit and wait while she will gets another passport. This only works in your favor if your move quickly and before you get a demand letter, a police visit, or a lawsuit served.

What are your alternative positive actions?
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