We had a major explosion this week-end, it could be a cross-roads for us

[anchor]

This thread has been split off from Breakup Threats -- How Do You Deal With Them? in order to give it a focus of its own.

Dear WW, dear all,

What a good thread to not feel alone, yet depressing when I don't want a divorce from uBPDw, largely because of our two kids (soon 2 and 5). She is financially dependent and "stuck" in my home country, so in that sense it would be tough for her to carry out her threats. But what do do when in such a situation? We had a major crisis yesterday (biggest one in 1,5 years) and made me think about  one aspect that I don't see reflected, but perhaps I am just naive:

I see a clear pattern of ":)-bombs" being launched whenever life is tough for her – emotionally, professionally, pain etc. As I explain below I think it means there is a collateral damage of typical coping strategies, because we may end up showing less respect for and connection with the partner (our empathy, listening etc. becomes too much like that of a nurse, not that of the romantic partner he/she fell in love with), which of course renders her more vulnerable and thus D-bombs more likely.

We had a major explosion this week-end, it could be a cross-roads for us and I have written a little novel below to expose it and the dilemma it evokes – if anyone has time I would really appreciate advice from you with more experience.

She exploded last night and we talked for two hours until 1.30 am, the first time in about two years we have such a crisis. It was triggered by a tough week and a situation one day earlier where she thought I had been utterly irresponsible with our 5 year old daughter, whereas I thought my behaviour perfectly normal (to summarise: we have been living in my home country for the last 5,5 years, this winter is more snowy and icy than usual, and she, 33 years old, is so scared of ice that she has the mobility of and old grand-mother; whereas I just love this winter which reminds me of winters when I was a child – and I want to share that with our kids. So on Saturday I took daughter to a small lake behind our house; I took the (studded) bike and the chariot about 200m on a pedestrian path in the forest without putting a safety belt on daughter; at about 10 km/h and no cars I thought it perfectly safe).

I have been arguing for couple therapy for more than 1,5 years, she's told me I am the one who should see a shrink, which I then did for a little while, which essentially led me to a coping strategy where I would consider her as ill and therefore that I could not expect justice and fairness from her in a difficult period of her life (traumatizing birth/post-birth experiences, living in a foreign country…).

That led to fewer conflicts and then about 1 year ago my brother-in-law (who is a psychologist, and who, like their sister, has broken off all contact with my wife because she is toxic to them) mentioned "borderline" to describe what he thought she was suffering from. With that label, I eventually could find fora like this one and it has helped me a lot, though strengthening my mental strategy of considering my wife ill. I have not pushed couple therapy any further and I have of course not said that I think she suffers from something for which therapy could help.

My main worry has been that our soon 5-year old daughter has started to copy her mother's aggressive, verbal abuse against me, in a fairly superficial manner (the other day, when we were just the two of us, she said almost merrily "I like to say bad things to you because Mum says bad things to you and I love Mum". I have not been too worried though, because she seems to be happy and well-functioning in every respect in kindergarden, and also because she reacts well when I explain to her that Mum can be angry with anyone she is close to (daughter has observed this of course), that she loves us all, but that she has pain in her heart/head: Since I started this about 6 months ago she also is pushed off balance less frequently whenever BPDw starts yelling at her (less often and less violently than against me, but it happens); daughter says "ok, mum, I understand" instead of bursting into tears at once.

I have stopped counting the number of times BPDw has threatened with divorce, but when the current situation appeared two days ago, she said "for your information, I am now seeking mediation and that it's the beginning of the end" (as in couple mediation, the compulsory step before divorce). It was the first time she said something like that. We had guests coming, so we did not speak any more until she late last night asked me to explain my behaviour.

For her, the trigger situation the day before confirmed once again that I couldn't care less about what she said (we may have talked about safety in bike chariot some time ago, but we have never had a disagreement about it as far as I can remember, so when I let daughter be without safety belt I had no clue I was infringing an agreed rule – this I did not say though). But I think there is some validity to her claim more generally, and that has to do with me putting a secret BPD label on her. Like she yelled to me on Thursday night after reading an article about pedophiles: "If you ever let our daughter visit a friend without telling me , me agreeing and me talking to our daughter first, I'll… " (probably something about how she would cut me into pieces). In a situation like that, I acquiesce, nod and stutter smth like "I understand you, I hear what you say". But I think that her suggestion would be a very bad rule, bad for our daughter (we live in a car-free village-like neighbourhood where kids run in and out of houses – the problem is that my wife, largely because of language, doesn't hang out in the street with the kids, so doesn't get to know neighbours) and wrong (because I think wife and I should have equal authority over our kids). So yes, BPDw is right that I don't care (as in don't respect) everything she says.

So I told her last night that after seeing a shrink 1,5 years ago, I had developed this strategy of explaining behaviour that I found unfair with a theory that she was suffering mentally, which for me was easily understandable as she was going through a tough time. That had helped me stop reacting in passive-aggressive ways with small "stings" that hurt her and escalated conflicts (something she has agreed that I indeed have stopped doing). But I then added last that night that I saw I was wrong, because the collateral damage was to show less consideration (or rather respect) for her and her opinions, that I had not been honest with her, that I had avoided conflicts etc. I promised her to not continue like that, to start to be honest again. She appreciated that, but I don't know how much hope she has for us.

In other words: I promised her to stop applying many of the techniques that I have learned here and elsewhere. I know that I have not done been the perfect husband to BPDw, especially I am at a loss of applying boundaries when she screams at me and the kids are around. Then I focus 150 % on de-escalation and modest attempts at applying boundaries (saying calmly "we don't say things like that" or sometimes refusing to speak her language – our common one – for a few hours afterwards), are probably ridiculously ineffective.

Why do I want to stay with her? I still love her, her emotional rollercoaster is smth that attracted me in the first place and I coped with it fine until kids came around (and we moved here, whereas before, we first met and then lived for 3 years in a city where her mother tongue dominates). What I want to do is to help her. I see the following options now for me (note that all of them may be irrelevant if she truly wants to divorce) - any thoughts/advice would be really helpful:

1.   Do what I promised. That requires me to be much more assertive. To say no to her ultimatums. How then to handle the verbal conflicts (she also hits me physically sometimes) that are bound to arise (perhaps I could choose not to respond verbally, but by email the next day explaining that's the only way I can express myself safely)? Should I be ready to call the police? She has said she was ready to take the situation two days ago to the police, she has threatened to leave the country with the kids. Both are tragicomic, as I am confident that she would have a problem toward the police (cf. her hitting me, or the verbal abuse of kids) and that she would be stopped at the border if she tried to leave with kids. This option seems to ultimately mean that I have to be ready to say "you seek treatment, or I want to divorce" (unless she has asked for divorce first). But as I said, I still love her, and a fear the consequences for the kids (a divorce would probably end in us having equal custody of the kids, as long as she has not behaved with the kids in a way that is clearly detrimental to them). This feels like a terrible Russian roulette where I would need to be ready for both outcomes.

2.   Continue as before, but create routines that help us talk together more often – I sensed yesterday that a lot of frustration underlying her explosion was that we engage less in things/projects together (which is a real shame, as we truly share all important values and lifestyle choices). I agree, I miss it, I hate how much time she spends in front of her computer. I need to be more assertive, say "let's plan this together tomorrow/in the week-end" in those situations instead of wandering off to do my things. Perhaps this option also includes being more assertive in all situations that are not already defined as disputes – for instance, I like to cook but she (she is not working and generally hasn't since we moved to my country) has forbidden me to cook dinner – she says I do it so badly. Yet in front of others she recently said that before the kids came, I made a lot of good dishes. So perhaps I should say: I insist on making dinner twice a week. "We can discuss what I should make, but I make it. That's how it is, and if you're not happy, I want to divorce" (I am somewhat confident making such a statement because it would just be funny to divorce because your feminist wife forbids you to cook).

3.   Tell her that her brother and her mother (who is my invaluable "lightning rod" – I ask her to call BPDw whenever things are too difficult/she has stopped speaking to me for too long; my mother-in-law knows how to handle her and dares to me more assertive than me, it helps to have a button to push to end the conversation) both think she suffers from BPD, explain how I have helped defuse misunderstandings with some BPDw friends and even kindergarden staff when I understood that she was entering into vicious circles with them (I have not used the label "borderline" with friends, but talked about sensitivity and the need BPDw has for confirmation of love and esteem from others). In other words: "People who are close to you find you behave in strange ways. It creates suffering for you and for them. They have little in common except knowing you. So perhaps a solution lies not with them but with you? This is DBT, etc." I would of course not say that I believe she is BPD, but I would unveil something she may (will?) interpret as a conspiracy and cut off links to all of them (the main damage would be if she cut off contacts with her mother, which is perfectly possible:  they have in the past had periods of up to a year of no contact). A variant of this would be to ask her mother to say what BPDw brother (the shrink) thinks, and say that she finds that plausible.

You probably see that I am inclined to go for option 2. I see no risks of that. But tell me if you think it means to just postpone the resolution of our problems (whatever it may be). It could perhaps be combined with option 3, but I have read so much about agnosognisia that makes me scared about this.

In either case, I think I'll say I want mediation (a process she has initiated this week-end, she says). Go to it like I would have gone to a couple therapist, i.e. with love, affection and openness. Hope that it triggers an appreciation on her side for calm conversations about our couple.

Thank you so much if you are still with me after this little novel. I would appreciate any thoughts or advice!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Enabler]

You probably see that I am inclined to go for option 2. I see no risks of that. But tell me if you think it means to just postpone the resolution of our problems (whatever it may be). It could perhaps be combined with option 3, but I have read so much about agnosognisia that makes me scared about this.

Hey Anchor, tough ride but you seem to be thinking about stuff pretty clearly and aware of your reactions, her behavior and your choices. I would be inclined to use a combo of 1 and 2. You should be open and honest and impart your opinions. Your opinions are valuable and as you say, in the example of your kids you are entitled as one of the pair of parents to have equal say in their upbringing. I agree with you that the coping strategy of working on the basis that your wife is sick can lead to you losing respect for her opinions, choices and emotions. It is possible to dehumanize her. HOWEVER, and this is where I believe boundaries are key, you cannot express yourself effectively when you are having an argument or when she is hitting you. It is a pointless exercise discussing things when she, and probably you are emotionally dysregulated. This is why strategies such as delaying discussions, time outs and even email is a productive way to enable healthy discussion. NOT resolving conflict just builds up resentment for a later date. Planning resolution time  or engaging in health email exchange needs to be done to enable you to move forwards. Fearing her dysregulating when you try and resolve things is a form of control by her. Keeping the balance of "I want to resolve this but not when you're in my face... .BUT I WILL RESOLVE THIS EVENTUALLY".

e.g.
- Food - I very much enjoy the food you cook for me, however I like cooking find it very therapeutic and miss the opportunity to cook as I did before we had kids. I will be cooking my own food (and kids if you want to add) a couple of times a week. If you don't want to eat the food I prepare I will nto be at all offended by that but I will not need food prepared for me on Tuesday and Thursdays for the foreseeable future. ... .(you buy the food yourself and don't make any expectations of her at all, you want it, you make it happen for you).

- Divorce - I do not want a divorce, it is not something I believe to be in the best interests of our family. You are free to get a divorce if that is what you choose. I will attend mediation if that's what you want and will not obstruct you exiting this relationship if you like. I will not be taking an active role in the divorce but will act to preserve the best interests of myself and my kid(s).

Is there any way that you can plan regular together time where you do those activities you used to enjoy. Take the initiative and suggest some dates you know you are both available, do the legwork and maybe even go without her if she backs out at the time.

Make your boundaries about defining yourself and your actions. I want this therefore I will do this and I make no assertions you will do anything for this.  

[Radcliff]

anchor,

#1 has some good elements.  #2 is good.  Don't do #3.

Your situation is familiar to me.  I came here with a similar situation to you, asked a couple of questions, then went away for a few months as I struggled to get by.  I had no idea how powerful this place was to help me until I came back and began reading and posting regularly.  You have a huge weight on your shoulders, but it is possible to get a better handle on things.

There's a lot to unpack in your description of your situation.  Let's start here:

(she also hits me physically sometimes)

This may not seem like a logical place to start.  The emotional and verbal behaviors may be causing you the most pain.  But it makes sense to start here for several reasons.  It is clear evidence of boundary problems.  It's easy to get into circular arguments on emotional or verbal behaviors, but there should be no question that physical abuse is wrong.  I'm not suggesting that she will agree with that.  But you and everyone else should.  You can get backup on this from friends, family, and the authorities.  And if you do not address it, things will get worse.  Many of us "nons" have trouble creating and enforcing boundaries.  If we've let things slide so far that we are being hit, there's no way we can hope to be effective on other boundary issues.

So with that said, give us a rundown of the physical incidents.  What do they look like?  How frequently do they happen?  When was the most recent one?  What was the worst incident, and how long ago was it?  All of these questions are important, and will help to give us an idea of the scope of the problem.  Keep in mind that physical abuse can take many forms -- striking, poking, tripping, shoving, grabbing -- really, any unwanted touch, especially if it is done in anger or with intent to control.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi anchor,
I really can relate to your post. I'm a stay home mom to our almost 5 year old son, so I share your concern about him imitating some of his dad's unhealthy behavior. I watch Daniel Tiger with him, on public television in the US. It's Mr. Rogers neighborhood, continued for the next generation. It's heavily centered on emotions, helping kids learn them and learn healthy ways of dealing with them. The songs are particularly helpful too. I think there are entire TV seasons available for purchase on iTunes.

I have tried #2, sort of. That discussion went well, however follow through was problematic... .we never did what we planned. Which was, to use the local family YMCA (health club) as a place to talk.  There's childcare provided and a nice sitting area, with coffee.

Reflecting on why we never followed through with the plan, I think is a combination of things. 1) unresolvable, circular disagreements 2) its not like working things out with a reasonable person, and I'm afraid of it I guess. 3) work, logistics, time, the gym is across town 4) fear of the combination of 1) and 2) leading to complete unreversable damage.

So, I am back somewhere where you are, trying to figure out how to communicate, and do damage control with the chaotic arguments. I try to prevent my son from hearing a lot of it, by leaving the house to go the coffee shop to work on my own schoolwork. My S4.5 is mostly safe with my H, and I never leave them alone together longer than between meals.

One last thought I had... .as a mom, staying home with kids this age, living through the toddler and preschool age tantrums takes a lot out of me emotionally. I've got to really ramp up self care to be able to handle my uBPDh. I wonder, if your w could use a little help in the self care department. Like, time away to get a massage, nails, etc. done? I wonder if she would like that, for you to offer to stay home with the kids and give her the ok to spend a little $ on herself like that. Any time away, where I can hear myself think, helps me to function as a better mom.

Best wishes to you,
Dig

[anchor]

Dear Enabler, Wentworth, Dignity&Strength,

You really make a difference to my situation, so first of all a heartfelt thanks to you and to bpdfamily. Especially that you respond so quickly in a situation which on my side is moving very quickly as well.

Fortunately, I had this morning my first appointment with a therapist at a centre for relatives of people with all kinds of diseases (planned a couple of weeks ago). It was very good. I explained the situation in some what more detail, and I was very strongly encouraged, like you have done, to go for option 1 and not only option 2 - stop walking on eggshells and be honest - because of the kids. Based on my description, she thought I would have a good chance at having full custody of kids if things go badly and she refuses therapy. I now feel a responsibility towards D5 for standing up. As the therapist said when I told her how D5 has started saying "OK, mum, I understand" instead of bursting into tears right away: "She's adapting yes. Do you want her to learn to accept a man behaving like her mum?"

My great fortune is that BPDw has gone through a good common friend who works for a "conciliation service" (handling anything from neighbourhood to family disputes) - and our friend (without me telling her) has understood the situation quite well, I understood when I called her yesterday. So she is arranging for us meeting the one fro the conciliation service she thinks is most suitable, and who furthermore speaks BPDw language.

After I, on Sunday, basically asked for forgiveness from BPDw, "lay myself flat", she of course told our friend that perhaps mediation wasn't needed. (surprise!) But tonight, a glass of pickled cucumbers left on the table from last night and a more assertive response from me than usual ensured that BPDw got a new rage, saying I hadn't understood anything, and that now she really wanted mediation. She meets our common friend tomorrow, probably we can get an appointment next week. I am super-excited about that, to be honest. The first time we would sit down with a neutral third party.

The therapist I saw this morning also confirmed your point WW about physical violence, the importance of it as a "no trespassing" boundary:

anchor,

So with that said, give us a rundown of the physical incidents.  What do they look like?  How frequently do they happen?  When was the most recent one?  What was the worst incident, and how long ago was it?  All of these questions are important, and will help to give us an idea of the scope of the problem.  Keep in mind that physical abuse can take many forms -- striking, poking, tripping, shoving, grabbing -- really, any unwanted touch, especially if it is done in anger or with intent to control.

WW

She typically punches me in the chest, it comes naturally I guess because of our height difference. It happened on Saturday of course, and the time before it was over Christmas. It is always punching, nothing else. Always one punch. It feels like it is uncalculated, a matter of so much anger that she doesn't have insults that are bad enough. So perhaps once every one or two months (i.e. less often than rages). At Christmas it was on my upper leg and it really hurt (I did not walk normally for several days), probably the biggest impact ever.

I'll revert to some other comments/questions you asked, hopefully tomorrow, I just wanted to share this and thank you once again for your support.

[Enabler]

Here to help buddy, we’re all on a journey of discovery, some of us are just further along the road... .help might not be your Facebook style “go sister” and relentless validation, but I’m not sure that helps anyone.

Can I clarify something, is the person you are seeing tomorrow a legal person focusing on divorce, or a couples counsellor type person?

It is your choice obviously but I got the impression from your post that you feel you have been given the green light to “fight back”, “make a stand” against your wife? Am I right there?

I feel it’s important to reiterate that the idea is to not fight, not get sucked into arguements and not be fuel to the fire. No one wins, least of all the kids.

Be careful of trying to triangulate other people ie the friend. Ensure they are appropriate and beneficial to the situation rather than recruiting people to be on your side. You do not want flying monkeys in the mix on either side... .  let her have those.

[Radcliff]

anchor,

That's great that you are getting support, and have talked to a counselor in person!

OK, just punching, and it sounds like every couple of months.  The last few times she has done that, how have you responded?  Did the counselor talk with you about how you might respond differently?  Do you have any thoughts on how you might respond differently?

WW

[anchor]

Dear all,

My Tuesday night was the most incredible I have had for years, perhaps since my wife and I got together. And it is all the more incredible because it feels like she had been learning a script and followed it to the letter, described time and time again on this forum. Basically, "option 1" worked like a wonder:

I wrote and posted my last message on Tuesday night, when she was in a fury once again, triggered by me responding in a normal way to an aggressive accusation:

W (shouting, as we sit down for dinner): "Why didn't you put this cucumber glass back in the fridge last night?"
Me: "And why didn't you put it back?" (she spent all day at home).

Wife fetches her laptop to watch a video while eating at table, tells D5 I have been very very mean to her, D5 says I am not mean, BPDw exits conversation and goes to our bedroom. I write my last message and stay calm.

After a while, she comes down, handing over wedding and engagement rings. "Sell them before I throw them away." First time this happens, but having read this familiar "script" on this forum before, I was not affected.

After a little longer she comes down again and asks if I am so unaffected because I am stupid, autistic or because I don't care about her. I say I don't want to discuss metal rings, I want to discuss cucumbers, because I want her and me to be happy. What was it that really happened at dinner, how did she feel, etc. I say I had seen a therapist the same morning (as mentioned in my last post), that she had told me I had a responsibility to stop acting "unnormally" to compensate for her unnormal behaviour, that I had to start acting normally, because of the kids etc.

Wife gets even more furious ("talking about us behind my back", I continue talking emotionally about how I love her, how I promised her honesty and that's what this is, real love is tough love, that I know she and I can be so much happier, because we have been in the past. Etc etc. Finally the dam bursts, she starts to cry, cry and cry. She explains how she, in the "cucumber glass situation" had seen her brother who never cleaned the table after dinner, how too many thoughts are in her head all the time, how she hates her head, how she suffers. I hold her tight and the night ends with fantastic love-making.

The next day (yesterday) she sees our common friend over lunch, the one she had contacted to find a mediator (but this actually is a conciliator, with a therapist-kind of background), and it is agreed that we will meet her Friday next week.

My wife feels again like her "real self", a loving, warm woman, she referred yesterday several times to honesty as in "we promised honesty so that's why I tell you that this is a stupid way to do" XYZ – said in a tone which is so much nicer than what I have grown accustomed to.

I know that we will have more rages and crises, that couple therapy will not be a miracle cure, but the sole experience of this week, knowing that her dam can burst if I just remain honest and confident and stand strong, will make it so much easier to confront it next time. It makes me more optimistic than I have been for years.

And it makes it so much easier to carry out my "option 2" in parallel – to be a better husband, to take the initiative and do the legwork to do nice things together.

When I read "success stories" on this forum, it has struck me that they confirm that the best way out is what I have finally started doing, "option 1", to "pierce the abscess". But I also read here about BPDs who carry out their threats and actually leave. That's what held me back, so it felt like a Russian roulette that I avoided until a therapist told me that what D5 experienced and how she adapted to BPDw was detrimental to her health.

So I wonder what psychological research there is on the likelihood of BPD partners carrying out their threats and the factors affecting that likelihood? It would make situations like these easier to navigate in for many of us "nons"?

Will let you know how things go after conciliation/therapy Friday next week!

[anchor]

Hi anchor,
I really can relate to your post. I'm a stay home mom to our almost 5 year old son, so I share your concern about him imitating some of his dad's unhealthy behavior. I watch Daniel Tiger with him, on public television in the US. It's Mr. Rogers neighborhood, continued for the next generation. It's heavily centered on emotions, helping kids learn them and learn healthy ways of dealing with them. The songs are particularly helpful too. I think there are entire TV seasons available for purchase on iTunes.

Yes thanks Dignity&Strength, the funny thing is that this is one of the TV series my wife has found for D5, she's watched all the episodes I think:-) So at a rational level, BPDw thinks that learning to handle emotions is very important. 

As for your other comment on giving her free time: Since August, she has all days for herself, with kids in kindergarden and her not working. And now during winter I also take them to and from kindergarden. I have been told by her psychologist brother that a lack of structure/daily routine is no good for her, and I tend to agree - not because I think it would have been better with kids at home but because she needs validation from other adults.

I am impressed by parents like you who have the energy and are self-sufficient enough to stay at home with pre-school kids - and it's all the more impressive given what you have to endure from your BPDh. Be proud of yourself!

[anchor]

OK, just punching, and it sounds like every couple of months.  The last few times she has done that, how have you responded?  Did the counselor talk with you about how you might respond differently?  Do you have any thoughts on how you might respond differently?

WW

I have always responded like if nothing happened. The counselor didn't talk about handling that differently, and honestly I have not done either, apart from having it in my "back hand" as an example to use if ever we run into a circular argument around verbal aggression. Any thoughts?

[anchor]

Can I clarify something, is the person you are seeing tomorrow a legal person focusing on divorce, or a couples counsellor type person?

It is your choice obviously but I got the impression from your post that you feel you have been given the green light to “fight back”, “make a stand” against your wife? Am I right there?

I feel it’s important to reiterate that the idea is to not fight, not get sucked into arguements and not be fuel to the fire. No one wins, least of all the kids.

Be careful of trying to triangulate other people ie the friend. Ensure they are appropriate and beneficial to the situation rather than recruiting people to be on your side. You do not want flying monkeys in the mix on either side... .  let her have those.

Thanks Enabler - yes, I was told to stand strong - as in not walking on egg-shells, that's all. The person we will finally see in a week's time is a perfectly non-legal person. I am aware of triangulation risks and can't believe how lucky we are to have this friend who both knows us, the conciliation services and the importance of neutrality so well :-)

[Enabler]

the importance of neutrality so well 

I definitely agree on this point. Hopefully rather than being part of the triangle, they stay in the center of the triangle and act as a coach as well. I would use your knowledge of the drama triangle to also avoid situations where you are taking any of the 3 nodes. Have you written a list of things you want to resolve as well as outcomes you want to target. To maintain a healthy atmosphere avoid Blaming, Shaming, Guilting comments and appear wisemind combining your rational factual mind and her emotional minds position in achieving those outcomes. My experience of my own W leads me to believe that pwBPD do not like appearing unreasonable in front of other people. Whether or not she sticks to the compromises is another matter.

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi anchor!
There are so many wonderful things in your reply! I am so glad about Daniel Tiger and that you take the kids to school and that she does have the "me" time that I need myself. I think thebDaniel Tiger songs have helped my husband some too. I have that soundtrack on in the van, too. So it's a good background for our activities, I hope.

I agree with thr validation from other adults and lack of routine for her thing. I also need validation from others, since I get zero from my H and criticism in its place. So, I try to build connections through community activities, during the day. Community Bible study, yoga class, any hobbies at the craft store, learning a new DIY thing, like cooking or building something.

Thank you for your kind words, and blessings on this journey. I'm in for a good journey with my H today too. All day in the van 
Dig.

[anchor]

Dear Wentworth, Enabler and Dignity&Strength,

As you have provided really useful guidance and you start to know my story, I would like to seek advice anew as I navigate these messy waters:

Wednesday to Saturday last week was marvellous. I made dinner, she appreciated it, we went to bed together, planned a trip to a spa, etc.

Saturday night we had a new situation at dinner table (wife arguing that ginger cannot be spicy, I insisting that I find it can be – all triggered by D5 complaining that the dinner was spicy and ginger being the only possible culprit). Instead of escalating, wife left the table, went to our bedroom. I put kids to bed and afterwards I joined her. She was resting/sleeping and woke up. I held her tight, asked what happened and she explained that she thought I had been very aggressive, I said I did not mean to, that to me she was aggressive, she said she had always been shouted at, and that she did not yet know how to do differently. That little word "yet" made me so happy. So far her clearest verbal recognition that she wants to change. The whole little crisis was defused and we spent a lovely night.

Sunday was great as well, just good vibes – that is until she just after dinner shouts at me "I told you to lock the door, why didn't you?"

The background is that she last autumn asked me to always lock the door even when we are inside. We live in a super-safe neighbourhood – I have never heard of burglery. I lock the door when I leave the house and it is empty, and also always at night, but that's just the "rule" I learnt from my parents. Here where we live I know plenty of people who don't even do that.
It is also a very sociable neighbourhood (terraced houses) organised as a co-property, and last autumn I had accepted to keep the key to the common garage (where there i.a. are spades and various other tools for everyone to use) for those living in our little patch of the street. It meant that sometimes (perhaps 5 times since October) people we don't really know knock on the door to borrow the key. Our doorbell doesn't ring very loud, so sometimes people have to knock on the kitchen window to get our attention. Also, it happened once that a close friend (that we knew was coming) entered himself, as we were upstairs and did not hear even his knocking on the window. And once, our closest neighbours put inside our door some mail that they had picked up for us while we had been on holiday. But all of this in the course of five years of living here.

To my wife, these experiences were traumatic. It is extremely important to her to separate private and public life. She (says she) would never go out in the street without "looking good", while the whole neighbourhood has a moderate "hippie flavour/culture" (which she somewhat shares at an "ideological" level). She explains her behaviour with her North-African roots (though she grew up in Europe) and there is certainly something to that, but I think it is aggravated by BPD.

Anyway, it meant that last autumn, when neighbours that were not friends started to come knocking on the door to borrow the key to the garage, she told me (shouting) that henceforth the door should always be "shut" ("fermée" in French, her mother tongue). What I understood at the time was that  it had to do with the fact that did not always shut the door properly, so it sometimes opened by "itself", which is annoying when it is cold outside. So I gave more attention to shutting it properly. Some time went by, and then she exploded saying that she meant "locked with a key", because she was afraid people would enter when she did not hear them knocking/ringing.

At the time, my strategy was about de-escalation, and so I nodded I guess, and I started to lock the door a bit more often (e.g. when I remembered, I did it when I left for work when she was alone at home), but I never locked it when I was at home. She certainly noticed that I more often than not did not lock the door.

And then came the explosion yesterday. We were all at home. "Why didn't you lock the door? You never listen!" I tried to respond like I had done successfully the day before in the "is ginger spicy?" situation, but talking with more warmth (cf. she thought I had been aggressive): After kids were in bed and asleep, I sat next to her on the sofa, asked her to turn off the video she was watching because I wanted to talk about what had happened. She did. I explained my perspective, that you got a sense of from above. "Why did you react like that now? You must have noticed that I very often do not lock the door. I never do it when I am at home and awake. I know nobody who does that here. It is normal not to lock it. I want to be honest with you, and that's why I tell you this. Now tell me what you felt, why you did like that."

That did not calm her at all. Saying I was not her therapist. When I cornered her with a logic (while stating clearly that I respected her sense of insecurity when alone at home, that I would really try to change my behaviour and lock the door e.g. when I leave for work in the morning), she started blaming me about something totally unrelated.

I thought for a while we could have a real conversation (like we managed to have about the "glass of pickled cucumbers" for those who remember, or "spicy ginger", but after a while I guess we both saw it did not take us very far, and we watched a comedy show  together, then I went to bed on my own (which has been the habit for the last few months, but was the first time since Tuesday). I left for work this morning before anyone woke up.

I am a bit uncertain about where to set boundaries on this issue: The "cucumber glass" was about a one-time behaviour the night before (ostensibly), and the "spicy ginger" was about me having a right to think differently from her. This "door lock" issue is about her wanting me to change my routine behaviour because she says she needs it for feeling her house is her private space. My intention, as mentioned, is to really make an effort at locking the door when she is without me, and I will also give the key to the common garage to someone else. But not lock the door myself when I am at home (if she wants to lock it then as well, so be it).

What do you think of this boundary? Is it approximately in the right place or am I being too soft or too hard?

Also, and partly connected, do you think it would have made a difference if I had handled the situation differently – e.g. if I instead of sitting next to her had first given her a big hug (more difficult when she is sitting with a laptop than laying in the bed)?

And when she tells me that she wished I had recorded myself because I sounded so aggressive (despite me consciously thinking about saying things as nicely as possible) – is that just a standard strategy that she would have used even if I had been Mother Theresa, or should I take it seriously? How? 

Any thoughts would be really appreciated!

[Enabler]

Hey Anchor,

A few things going on here so I'll try and break down my thoughts. Firstly, well done, sounds like you are making good progress and small breakthroughs such as "yet" are amazing lights in an otherwise dark world.

"You are aggressive" -  couple of things spring to mind, firstly this unsettles you and gets you defensive, it makes you look at you rather than look at her. It's like throwing a stick for a dog, you go and start analysing YOUR behaviour rather than analysing HER behaviour, it's a bit of a red herring. It's also likely to be projection, she was/is angry and therefore projected that anger onto you. Thirdly pwBPD see anger in neutral facial expressions, if you're not glowing with joy you must be furious... .black and white thinking.

Back door being locked - Is it reasonable to want the back door closed and locked at all times during the winter months. Yes, if it makes someone feel secure and there are random people coming and going. I get her desire for control in this instance. Are you human and do you forget sometimes? Yes. Does that make you a bad person, love her less or in anyway thoughtless, No. Could you have handled it differently? Yes. Is there a desire to fix the narrative quicker than is optimal? I don't know whether or not you were able to gauge her state of mind when you broached the subject but was she totally relaxed? If she was in anyway still dysregulated there was no point in trying to engage the conversation. I'm wondering if there is anyway where you can leave all issues like this for 24hrs. If you still care about the issue then raise it in a lighthearted way... .if you don't then forget it. The back door issue was likely just a continuation of the previous argument or her way of wanting to get back at you about something. By responding or wanting to address these little niggles, you are feeding her desire for drama. Gloss over them, don't overtly change your behavior and move on putting it down to "she's trying to get a reaction out of me", don't feed it. 

Reward the positives and ignore the negatives

[Enabler]

Here's an example of how guilt transfer/projection might subtly work in practice.

W is out all day. She lied about what she was doing, rather than going out for a family lunch she was round her parents house with brother in-law (accountant) getting his help on putting together financials for our divorce... .why she lied I don't know but she felt the need to lie. Since the kids don't know I can understand why she didn't tell them. Our D7 has been ill with high temperature for the last 3 days. D7 sends her a text asking when she is coming home and she replies "I'm on my way back now", parents live 5 mins away.

When she arrives home D7 runs up to her and gives her a massive hug and says I missed you. W feels pretty guilty about leaving D7 in her hour of need. D7 had been fine all day and I had checked the back of her neck numerous times throughout the day to see if the temp had come back. W asks D7 if she'd had any medicine to which she replied "No". W starts to get cross with me that I have neglected D7 and should have given her more medicine. "I can't believe you haven't given her any medicine, she's so ill, I can't believe it... .tut tut tut". My only response was "I have been checking her temperature all day and it has been fine all day, if you doubt my abilities as a father I suggest you don't go out for lunch with your family".

She felt guilty and was blaming herself for D7 upset... .that feeling was hard for her to stomach so she transferred/projected it away onto me.

[anchor]

Thanks Enabler, your message gives me confidence, I needed that. The guilt transfer you describe sounds very familiar. Sounds like your wife's family is all with her? All the more impressive how you are coping!

[Enabler]

She has 100% support from her family.

Father never says anything about anything so is out of the equation

Mother, pretty sure she suffers from BPD traits herself. My wife approached parents in 2007 to address her mothers behaviour when she was a teenager, response was "I have no idea what you're talking about". Many many many experiences of disproportionate anger over nothing, abandonment sensitivity, black and white thinking, delusional thinking. Only behind closed doors, holiday season and holidays are a freakin nightmare around her.

Sister is white sheep but has some extremely chaotic behaviours and has been constantly disruptive to the family for her whole life.

Mother and Sister like to pity my W, sister always trying to gain the one up position over everyone in the family. Sister hates her chaotic behaviour being pointed out so is jumping on this opportunity to be high and mighty. Enabling a divorce would be her thing, under the banner of rescuing her poor pathetic sister and her poor children (she doesn't have any kids). Mother is too wrapped up in her own feelings to be useful but jumps on an opportunity to say "there, there, poor you". If father did have a view, he wouldn't say anything because he doesn't want to stir up any trouble for himself.

Yes, it's very lonely indeed.

[Radcliff]

anchor,

Sorry to be scarce, I had some developments on my end that knocked me down for a while, but I'm climbing back in the saddle.

I see a lot of good news here.  You care for your wife, she cares for you, and you are able to make some progress.  I also see some "low lying fruit," or at least one relatively easy change where you can make some progress.

There was some talk on this thread about your wife pushing focus from her behavior to yours.  It is actually appropriate for us to take that focus.  You can only change your behaviors.  And, in a way, some of your behaviors actually *are* aggressive, or at the very least, feel that way to her.

I am talking specifically about trying to win arguments, about trying to get her to see your side of the story on things like pickle jars and spicy cucumber.  Defensiveness and arguing is a great thing to minimize in any relationship, but it is especially critical in a BPD relationship.  Take a look at this link on how not to JADE.  For the pickle jar, you could say, "Hey, look at that.  I like a tidy house too, I'd be happy to put that away."  For spicy ginger, you are on stage for your daughter there.  Validate her -- children are more sensitive to strong tastes.  If you know your wife thinks it's not the ginger, don't argue with her at all.  Talk to your daughter and say something your wife can't argue with, like "It sounds like the dinner tastes spicy to you!" with a big dad smile, or tell her a story about a food you thought tasted very spicy when you were her age.

Avoiding JADE is my favorite "beginner tool" to recommend.  It involves a fair bit of self control, but other than that, it's one of the simplest tools to put into daily practice, and I believe you'll see an immediate positive impact.  It was actually funny, when I stopped defending myself and fighting back, my wife was visibly thrown off her game and we chuckled about it together a bit.  It totally broke a dysfunctional dance we'd been doing.

In general, I think you're a little early in your discovery and use of the coping tools here.  That's good news, since it means you have a lot of room for improvement in your situation.  Take a look at the JADE link, try it, and tell us how it goes!

Regarding hitting you, unless you can get quick agreement from her not to do it again, and she holds to that commitment, the hitting needs to have a consequence.  Typically, the consequence involves telling someone outside your relationship each time it happens.  Women especially hate that.  Have you read up on boundaries?  Consequences are not delivered with drama, they just happen.  If you tell your counselor, for example, each time it happens, simply tell and don't get dramatic or threatening about it, you may find that the behavior goes away quickly.  Have you talked with her about the hitting?  Can you get her to agree that it is inappropriate and get her to promise not to do it again?

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Wow guys,
Thank you for all of this great conversation! I've been off for a week, and am back since it's my H's work "weekend" (he's home 48 or more hours).

Thank you WW, fo Suggesting the Jaded link. I looked. I needed this. I think my question here might be best in a new thread? I'll ask here first.

My H, uBPD, uN, possibly antisocial or higher, seems so always do this. It's his favorite button of mine to push. I need help figuring it out. He loves to make me give an answer for myself, or anything around the house, van, or other surroundings. He often negatively exaggerates a circumstance, and contributes it to my faults and shortcomings. It's bad. If I try to say, I'm not going to argue with you, he keeps escalating until he gets an answer... .And, if I successfully prevent entering into a string of baited arguments, he escalates the topic until it's unavoidable. It's a game to him.

The history of his diagnosis is, ODD & Adhd as a child, that was allowed to go untreated. His family does not talk about it. It seems to have grown into the adult version of that diagnosis... .conduct disorder, antisocial, and with the malicious covertness, hiding it from all others in public, I truly suspect he could be an actual psychopath. But he has this nonsensical logic to his ideas that sound borderline.

So, I say all that to ask, are there specific posts in the Jaded info that may help me avoid falling into that, since he's upping the anty with each bait? There's also the issue of my S5. I don't want him learning to exaggerate a crumb on the floor and learn misogynistic comments. I especially feel the need to correct, thereby falling into the JADE to correct my sons perception. (He's parroting and repeating my H's comments in these circumstances often). My H's comments are along the lines of, it's my right to hold you accountable for this because I'm male and you're to be submissive... .if you weren't such a faulty wife I wouldn't be having to get on your case"

I've tried a couple of things... .leaving the house to work on my online graduate school work, making plans with mothers and children's groups at local churches, anything to limit H's access to me and S5 during his 48 hours off, and at least limit access to me, preventing my S5 from seeing too much of it.

Any suggestions for breaking the JADE cycle once and for all? I truly suspect, this is what's learned and comfortable to him, to have a house with verbal chaos. His parents sound like Edith and Archie Bunker from All in the Family, that old tv sitcom.

Thanks guys, and please, move my reply to a new post if that's best.
Dig.

[anchor]

Thanks a lot WW, this was a very useful reminder/correction about JADEing.

Sorry for being absent, we had a bit of a honeymoon starting with the first counselling session. The counsellor dug into childhood (especially BPDw), helped us remind ourselves of why we fell in love, etc. A week followed with no real arguments – there were a couple of times when W was irritated by something I had done/not done, but instead of saying it in an aggressive way as she usually does, she said it with a glimpse of a smile, a sort of benevolent "ah, he'll never change", in a tone which I am perfectly comfortable with. After a week a new counselling session. W explains she did not react aggressively in those last few days because she was able to think "he won't change anyway" and because she was happy we spent more (nice) time together, which I also appreciated of course, so it was all a kind of positive circle.  We also dug into some detailed difficult situations over the last months, like the one about locking the door when I leave the house. We both could explain ourselves calmly, W gets angry, but with help of counsellor everything cools down and we leave on a happy note.

Then on Sunday (two days ago) I speak with my Mum (on loudspeaker), who asks if my W has been able to finish the job assignment she was so stressed about when we visited my parents a week earlier, I say that she is not yet quite finished. I hang up, and my wife is angry: We had told my parents that the deadline was 28 Feb, so if she is not finished now it must mean she is a bad worker, and she frets my Mum will say that to my Dad, and so on… I say sorry, I did not think about that, I made a mistake (I am sure there will be no badmouthing of my wife, but I respect her right to feel humiliated), W shouts at me, I leave the house, and since then her communication with me is ice-cold, while I am trying to be warm and welcoming, and definitely not JADE, without being pushy. I am a bit hesitant between not nurturing her desire for me to be submissive, and on the other hand my wish to do S.E.T. – but where the T will be really hard to do…

We'll see – tomorrow we have planned to take the day off to go to a spa together, which she confirmed this evening - "you just have to stop saying stupid things" she says aggressively (to which I say sorry once again, to which she responds "that's easy to say when you say stupid things all the time"... .).

I'll keep you posted!

[Radcliff]

anchor,

The progress sounds great!  Good for you to not JADE.  The tool I'd add on top of that is a whole lot of validation.  Validate her feelings.  Telling her that you are sure your parents won't badmouth her might be seen as invalidating her feelings.  I've found that in those situations that the speed and sincerity of the validation matters.  Sometimes I can visibly see it calm the situation.  Other times, I'm not as successful.  I validate feelings, not dysregulated behavior.  I don't tell her it's OK to scream, slam doors, call me names, etc.  But I can validate her feelings without invalidating myself.  Validation is a tremendously powerful tool.  To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.  You may also want to look at this workshop on validation.

It's great to hear that you and your wife are making progress working through problems.  You might find it valuable to look at the book, High Conflict Couple.  It does not mention BPD, but was written by a leading BPD expert.  I was reminded of it when you spoke of the ways your wife was changing her frame of mind in order to stay positive when talking with you.  If she is willing and able to do that, the techniques in the book may work for you and her.

WW