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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: BPD Stonewalling and Silent Treatment  (Read 1567 times)
Jonathan Ricciardi
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« on: February 10, 2016, 09:25:20 AM »

I'm new here looking for advice.  I have learned a lot about BPD, on line and through counciling.  My ex-GF and I were together for 6 months.  5 months were great.  The problem I have is I have known this ex- girl since we were both about 12.  I'm now 46, she is 43.  I fell for her big time and thought she liked me, I was wrong.  My family and her family have also known each other for both of our lives.  Her uncle is married to my aunt, no blood relations.  We also dated for a short time in college, as when school ended, so did our relationship.  There were no hard feelings.  So there is tremendous history.  

We reunited three years ago, and of course it got hot and heavy.  I saw some red flags but ignored them.  She was separated, for 5 years she told me.  :)uring this 6 months we both frequented each others homes.  We live 40 minutes apart.  We started dating in about Aug of 2012, she officially ended it on Feb. 2013, of course on Valentine's Day.  The downfall started on New Year's Eve, we celebrated Xmas on New Year's, as she has a son and we had only been dating 4 months.  Of course we have been having communication through phone, in person, and facebook.  As I gave her her Xmas present, she opened it, a pair of cowgirl boots.  She then mentioned to me that she forgot my present in her other car.  I didn't think it was a big deal and never thought about it.  Needless to say, this was the last time I would see her.

On Jan. about 6th I asked about her ex, or the separated ex, not truly an ex.  She had told me previously that he doesn't pay child support. No idea why but I was private messaging her and asked her why she doesn't get child support from her ex.  She kept defending his action of not paying child support.  This guy rarely sees the child, maybe once or twice a year.  This is a fact, as I have never seen pictures of her son with his father. I could tell that I inflicted serious pain, even by a text.  As I think people who purposely don't pay child support are deadbeats.  We didn't talk for 24 hours.  

This is when I really noticed a change, she stopped complimenting me was the first thing I noticed.  I called her out on it, and she just said give her some time.  But we were still communicating.  Then about a week later, I asked when we were getting together again, she said this coming weekend.  Well anyways this was the first and last time I let her blow me off.  She called me about a half hour before we were to meet, and cancelled.  She told me her father had been placed in the hospital for dehydration.  I never believed her, but also never called her out on it.  I let it go, then gradually the relationship deteriorated.  I really liked this woman, she knew this.  She then started to stonewall me, brick by brick.  The first step was to block me on facebook, which was odd as I rarely posted on her FB.  We just used it for instant messaging.  I was devastated by this, but we were still communicating via cell phone.  But obviously I knew she was ending this, she asked for space, I gave her space for two days, no communication at all.  On the third day of no contact I stupidly sent her flowers hoping to save things.  She did text and thank me for them, and that did save me for like three days, but then, she just texted me it was over, I was sad.  I was shocked that with our history she wouldn't breakup by text.  So naturally I tried calling her, and she did answer eventually.  But she was mean and distant and wasn't really listening to anything I had to say, it was like she didn't care about me feelings at all.

My question is this, all our lives we learn.  We learn through books, tv, and newspapers, teachers, family, etc... .So if a BPD were to watch the movie, for example, Old Yellow, they don't get the relationship between a boy and his dog? What are they feeling? I felt love watching that movie.  What does a BPD get out of such things.

I never got a Christmas gift from her.  It has been 3 years since this all happened and she has not once contacted me, why?
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2016, 12:03:11 AM »

Though it could be couched in the co next of BPD behaviors in that she just split you black,.it sounds like its so much more painful given that you've basically known each other your whole lives.

In addition to my Ex, I had a long term friend split me black overnight. It was shocking to me, especially after she had told me that she loved me. She probably did... .then suddenly didn't. That's BPD. Had you seen this article? Perhaps it can help you understand:

Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2016, 02:36:20 AM »

Hi there. 

My exBPD discarded me the day after Christmas.  He went back to his ex fiancé.

Turns out they were never exes.  I found out that night when his fiancé called me angry. 

It was all love, kisses, smiles, perfection, until one day it just shattered.  I think the guilt caught up to him and he was too much of a coward to fess up to anything

Sounds like your girl pulled the same crap.

I got him 700 dollars worth of xmas gifts.

He got me a cute pillow.

I think people who act out like this love to do it around the holidays.  Honestly all I can say is she probably had fun with you until she realized the gig was up and she discarded you. 

It hurts I know. 

Are you still hurt 3 years later? 

I'm sorry you went through this
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2016, 08:38:52 AM »

Thank you so much Turk and Rmbr, it means a lot. Turk I have read article and many other, I will again. I do agree with you, it is hard to call her my ex because as she was just separated, not divorced.  She was never mine, that is why she dumped me without thought.

Easier to get out of something mentally if she wasn't into it.  

I'm still hurt, but not depressed or upset, just frustrated.

Part of life is learning and when this went down, I understand she has every right to end a relationship anyway she wants, even if text break up is immature. What I don't understand is how a 43 year old woman, can be so immature. That hurts that I was so dumb to fall for her game. I thought the older you got the wiser and more mature you become.

In some ways I think therapists and doctors are wrong on Bpd, it takes a complete invalid to go through life and not understand caring or empathy. It means that any movie or book can't even be comprehended by a person with PD. I don't buy that, if the PD is smart enough to get into a relationship, date, sex, and anything else, they know what they're doing during break up. I wasn't dating an invalid. What bothers me now is the continuos blocking and ignoring. I'm fine with it, but why do BPD take the rocky road? Why be enemies or ignore exes for years? Doesn't that keep you in their minds, unfinished business?
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2016, 10:20:22 AM »

Hi Jonathan525,

I'm in a similar situation, though it's been a year rather than three. I know in my case there was a pattern of avoidant behavior that I saw throughout the relationship, and I guess there's even something called Avoidant Personality Disorder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder#Signs_and_symptoms

He has some of those traits as well (not all--he's actually got great social skills), and was diagnosed (wrongly, I think) with ADHD. So I think the avoiding might be part of his special mix of dysfunctions. Maybe same in your case?

On the other hand/in addition:

Why be enemies or ignore exes for years? Doesn't that keep you in their minds, unfinished business?

YES. And maybe that's the point. Not to finish business. It's unbearably final.
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2016, 10:37:11 AM »

In some ways I think therapists and doctors are wrong on Bpd, it takes a complete invalid to go through life and not understand caring or empathy. It means that any movie or book can't even be comprehended by a person with PD. I don't buy that, if the PD is smart enough to get into a relationship, date, sex, and anything else, they know what they're doing during break up. I wasn't dating an invalid.

Hi Jonathan525,

No, you weren't dating an intellectual/cognizant invalid, but you were dating an emotional invalid. A pwBPD was emotionally arrested at a very early age of development (before the age of 3); therefore, while someone that is emotionally mature can easily connect the emotional dots and predict the outcomes of emotional acts/behaviors, a pwBPD simply doesn't have the emotional capacity (emotional maturity) to do that. Many people with BPD are indeed quite intelligent; while, at the same time, they are emotionally, toddlers. How many testimonies have you read on the boards where the Non is complaining about the intellectual capacity of their ex? It's always a complaint about an emotional issue/deficiency in the pwBPD.
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2016, 10:44:56 AM »

Many people with BPD are indeed quite intelligent; while, at the same time, they are emotionally, toddlers. How many testimonies have you read on the boards where the Non is complaining about the intellectual capacity of their ex? It's always a complaint about an emotional issue/deficiency in the pwBPD.

I would go so far as to say emotional immaturity is the number one most commonly shared trait seen on these boards.
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2016, 10:47:42 AM »

Apollotech I respect your comments. with that said, if I was dating an emotional invalid, then we would have never got together.  It takes emotions to start dating, it takes emotions no matter how short or how long, to stay in a relationship, it takes emotions to end a relationship.  Sorry but they know what their doing.  

Steelwork... .I'm sorry you're going through this.  

Even if my ex had APD... .we would have never met... .they avoid people.

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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 11:00:07 AM »

Quote from: Jonathan525 link=topic=290204.msg12731184#msg12731184


Steelwork... .I'm sorry you're going through this.  

Even if my ex had APD... .we would have never met... .they avoid people.

Totally, of course. As I said, I think he had traits of this. Not all of them. For instance, if a conversation was going in a way that made him uncomfortable, he'd make a sudden, nonsensical shift in topic.

He talked a lot about self-loathing.

Generally very conflict-averse--partly I think because he could only respond to conflict with aggression, and he didn't want to do that, and so he avoided.

He wasn't shy in social situations, actually had a very outgoing personality and SEEMED to make friends easily, but non of his friendships were deep, and all were dropped easily. So though it seemed otherwise, he always kept emotional distance.

He referred to himself as "a master of the 10-second relationship"--meaning that he was good at having little bits of business with strangers around holding doors, lines, cashier encounters, stuff that didn't matter. I think he had actually gotten good at social skills as a way of overcoming/stuffing/compensating for his deep distrust of himself and others in social situations.

Did you notice anything in your relationship that, in retrospect, seems like avoidant behavior? I ask because maybe it could help you deal with those unanswered questions.
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 11:08:52 AM »

At the end of course I saw avoidant behavior, breaking up by text is an example.  But no one even the so called experts can explain to me why people with PD orders, can get involved with someone if they have emotional issues? It takes emotions to start and end a relationship.

If one of their friends or family dies, do they just go, "oh well".

When they see a person beheaded in the Middle East, they cant comprehend that?

How about going through high school, and college, and then at the age of 43 you meet a guy and after all those years of life you can't feel emotions? I don't buy it.

How about if these people had a pet as a child did they hate it? Please don't get into animal abuse.
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2016, 11:11:43 AM »

It might be more helpful to think of emotional disturbance/dysfunction rather than lack of emotion. It's said that people with BPD have very STRONG emotions, and that they have trouble regulating them--especially under certain kinds of stress.
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2016, 11:15:59 AM »

Ok see what is going on now, is people are cross-diagnosis.  OK then I was wrong she must not have been BPD.

Name me one PD that doesn't have emotional immaturity. 
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2016, 11:19:30 AM »

Apollotech I respect your comments. with that said, if I was dating an emotional invalid, then we would have never got together.  It takes emotions to start dating, it takes emotions no matter how short or how long, to stay in a relationship, it takes emotions to end a relationship.  Sorry but they know what their doing.  

Steelwork... .I'm sorry you're going through this.  

Even if my ex had APD... .we would have never met... .they avoid people.

Jonathan525,

They are not "emotionless." They are emotionally immature. There are people in the world who enjoy hurting others, but those people have mental disorders which are separate from BPD. Now, those sadistic traits/disorders may run comorbid with BPD in a pwBPD, but that's not a product of the BPD. Perhaps your ex has other issues?

I don't know what brought your relationship to a close, but I'll bet the house that it was an emotional issue. So, think of it this way, assuming that I am correct, if someone was in control of their emotions and emotionally mature, wouldn't they try to work things out? Wouldn't they try to have a constructive discussion to see what could be done to save the relationship? Wouldn't peace offerings be extended and responsibilities be taken and sincere apologies made? Or, would they rant and rave, go silent, act out inappropriately with others, point fingers, reject responsibilities, etc.? I think that as you learn more about the disorder and how it manifests itself in a pwBPD and in a relationship with a pwBPD, you'll come to see that she actually had/has very little control over herself. Simply, she doesn't control her disorder; it controls her. There is much going on below her surface which comes out in sometimes very charming ways and sometimes in very hurtful ways.
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2016, 11:26:38 AM »

Ok see what is going on now, is people are cross-diagnosis.  OK then I was wrong she must not have been BPD.

Take a look at the second post on this thread--about co-occurrence of other personality disorders. ("Comorbidity"

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58157.0

Name me one PD that doesn't have emotional immaturity. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2016, 11:27:06 AM »

Apollo, I'm new to this, and from my understanding through cousiling and homework, very few are diagnosed strictly with BPD, they have other illnesses and traits.

I totally agree with you that my ex showed complete BPD during our relationship.  However, if someone is mature enough to get into a relationship, date, then why the immaturity during breakup?  Its very contradictory.
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 11:33:10 AM »

So, I am not an expert at all, but... .

1. How mature do you really have to be to get in a relationship? Especially in the early infatuation part of a relationship. Maturity seems more important to maintaining a relationship. For instance, how do you handle a conflict?

2. pwBPD go through periods when they have more or less trouble with emotional regulation. And their behavior changes depending on what is going on around them, or what they perceive to be going on. In other words, their emotional deregulation can be "triggered," and then you see changes in them.

I don't know. Does that help at all?
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 11:40:04 AM »

I think it takes a lot of maturity to get into a relationship... .it takes work.  Phone calls, texts, private messages, dates, and sex.  We also lived 40 minutes away, plenty of time to set emotions.  This was a short 6 month relationship, there is no doubt in my mind, she figured out I was smarter than her an wasn't going to play her games.  Hence the three years of no contact, stonewalling, silent treatment, whatever is the term of the day.

I think steelwork, and please don't get mad, I think this is all an excuse for people with PD's.
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 11:41:34 AM »

I think it takes a lot of maturity to get into a relationship... .it takes work.  Phone calls, texts, private messages, dates, and sex.  This was a short 6 month relationship, there is no doubt in my mind, she figured out I was smarter than her an wasn't going to play her games.  Hence the three years of no contact, stonewalling, silent treatment, whatever is the term of the day.

I think steelwork, and please don't get mad, I think this is all an excuse for people with PD's.

I'm not mad--not at all! I think we just don't agree is all, and that's fine.

I was just taking a crack at it to see if I could help you understand the things that were confusing you about her behavior at the end.
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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 11:44:25 AM »

jonathan525,  

emotional immaturity is a hallmark of BPD and other personality disorders. of course, emotional immaturity is not unique to personality disorders, but i dont see where thats "an excuse for people with PD's" or where "phone calls, texts, private messages, dates, and sex" have anything to do with emotional maturity. can you elaborate on that?
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 11:52:08 AM »

My theory is, she went back to her ex, I have no proof.  But the break up was so bad that if she found a new man, as in, not her ex, but someone else, she would have rubbed it in my face.  She didn't, that is why I think she went back to her separated ex, it would be embarrassing to tell me she went back to a deadbeat.  But I know, and my therapist admits that they won't last.  I wish it would for their son's sake. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 11:54:32 AM »

I know my ex is embarrassed about the person he's in a relationship with now. I'm sure that's a part of the picture in my case as well.
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 11:55:00 AM »

once removed, the point is these people are emotionally immature, they're emotionally immature when they start a relationship too, and continue it right? So if that is the case, then anybody who ever dated these people is shmuck?
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 12:01:46 PM »

Apollo, I'm new to this, and from my understanding through cousiling and homework, very few are diagnosed strictly with BPD, they have other illnesses and traits.

I totally agree with you that my ex showed complete BPD during our relationship.  However, if someone is mature enough to get into a relationship, date, then why the immaturity during breakup?  Its very contradictory.

Jonathan525,

You bring up a good point. I will ask you this about her in the beginning of the relationship: was she indeed emotionally mature in the beginning? For example, did she come on too strong, did the relationship move at breakneck speed at her beckoning, was she overly communicative---diverging private information too quickly, was there talk of marriage, children, etc. early on in the relationship, were you her everything right from the get go, was sex easily and quickly accomidated, was there black/white thinking on her part, etc? If the answer is yes to some of those, I'd say that that points to her emotional immaturity right from the beginning. As I stated earlier, if you ex is afflicted with BPD, there is a disorder running in the background driving her actions, a disorder she doesn't control. The emotional immaturity is built in because she was developmentally arrested at a very young age. She never formed an autonomous self.

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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 12:08:30 PM »

She showed about 90% of the things you listed.  I know many couples who start out that way and get married, and it last, getting to know someone in a new relationship is always a whirlwind.

You're starting to make me feel stupid, because I fell for it.

Again if they're emotionally immature, that of a 3 year old, they would never get into relationships. 
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 12:16:20 PM »

If you are stupid, then welcome to Stupidtown!

As you said, many relationships start out thrillingly. And then they calm down. So there's nothing stupid about getting caught up in a thrilling new relationship. And then, once in it, if you've bonded with that person, you'll make allowances and adjustments for the lack of calming-down in this one, and if you're like me, that will be especially true because of the almost narcotic quality of the adoration you're getting. And if you're like me, you might have issues in your past that made you especially vulnerable to the adoration, and then especially driven to "fix" your lover's loneliness, insecurity, trouble thinking straight at times--to redress all the terrible things that happened to him/her in his/her past, etc. And you might find his/her eccentricities attractive, even--unconventional.

Please don't beat yourself up. It may seem like a useless bromide right now, but this is an opportunity to learn more about yourself.
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2016, 12:17:12 PM »

I would go so far as to say emotional immaturity is the number one most commonly shared trait seen on these boards.

My observation as well.  And we don't even realize it.  It's hard to see something like that in ourselves.  Like attracts like.
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 12:17:45 PM »

once removed, the point is these people are emotionally immature, they're emotionally immature when they start a relationship too, and continue it right? So if that is the case, then anybody who ever dated these people is shmuck?

She showed about 90% of the things you listed.  I know many couples who start out that way and get married, and it last, getting to know someone in a new relationship is always a whirlwind.

You're starting to make me feel stupid, because I fell for it.

Again if they're emotionally immature, that of a 3 year old, they would never get into relationships.  

a shmuck? hardly Smiling (click to insert in post). i think there is some confusion here as to what constitutes "emotional immaturity". emotional immaturity does not preclude an ability to get in, or even, necessarily, have a lasting relationship. it happens all the time.

emotional maturity has to do with consistency of emotions. in a romantic relationship, it has to do with the ability to face obstacles and grow as a result. it has to do with the ability to see your partner as a whole, with both flaws and positive qualities. people with BPD lack a stable sense of self, as well as an unstable sense of those around them. thoughts and feelings are fleeting and generally unsustainable. that doesnt mean youre a shmuck or that you were conned or that it was all a game. it is all very real, and intensely strong for a person with BPD, sometimes too strong; sadly, it is not sustainable.
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 12:26:12 PM »

I hate to say this, it gets more confusing.  Again I'm 46, I wanted this relationship to work.  I did everything imaginable to make it work.  I was never, ever mean to her till she dumped. 

I go back to my original post, that these people know what they're doing. 

Do they watch a family member die and think nothing of it?

Do they watch a person get beheaded on the news and think nothing of it?

I don't buy that at 43 years old she has no idea what she is doing.  It is nearly impossible to go through life and not feel emotions.
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2016, 12:31:27 PM »

jonathan525, emotional immaturity is not an absence of emotions; i think you are confused here. people with BPD feel emotions very intensely, often, indeed, too intensely. emotional immaturity does not equate to a mindless unfeeling zombie who has no idea "what theyre doing".

it is confusing, i understand. keep reading, posting, and asking questions. things will make better sense with time.
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2016, 12:37:26 PM »

Sorry but they know what their doing

Perhaps an analogy might help to better understand.  Like all analogies it has it's limitations, but I think it might better explain the state of mind that pwBPD seem to experience when dysregulated.

pwBPD experience extreme emotions.  I mean extreme.  Like you and I probably can't really understand.  Emotions that are overwhelming - more than they can stand.  So, they have to stop the emotions in the best way they can.  It's a matter of self preservation - the most powerful instinct we have.

Think of a dysregulating pwBPD as a drowning person.  A drowning person is certainly aware that they are drowning to the point that it's all they can think about.  Getting that next breath of air is the focus of their every thought.  It is a fight for survival.  A drowning person will climb on top of another person in a desperate attempt to survive.  In is at a deeply instinctual level.  It is not something they are conscious of the consequences at the time.  They will even climb on top of someone they love.  When I was a teenager, I became certified as a lifeguard.  One of the most important things that lifeguards are taught is this rule.  It is extremely important that a lifeguard take steps to protect themselves in how they approach and rescue a drowning person in order that they are not both pulled under.

Can you imagine now how an impulsive action to climb on top of a rescuer isn't something that is exactly thought through?  It is an instinctual, knee jerk reaction.  It's not planned.  They may feel unimaginably guilty afterwards, but at the time survival is all that mattered.  I think this is similar to what many pwBPD experience when dysregulating.  Their behaviors are highly impulsive.  They are snap decisions to stave off overwhelming emotions.  One of the most notable aspects of BPD is profound shame, and many pwBPD feel extraordinary guilt about how they behave sometimes.  But they just can't stop themselves at the time.  One of the most important aspects of treating pwBPD is awareness - training their minds to be aware of these sorts of situations so their conscious mind can intervene and redirect the response to a more healthy one.
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2016, 12:44:34 PM »

She showed about 90% of the things you listed.  I know many couples who start out that way and get married, and it last, getting to know someone in a new relationship is always a whirlwind.

You're starting to make me feel stupid, because I fell for it.

Again if they're emotionally immature, that of a 3 year old, they would never get into relationships. 

Jonathan525

You're quite right, many normal people get into relationships with some of these same characteristics present. They serve a biological function to secure the attraction/attachment: it changes brain chemistry. (This is why you're not stupid. This is why you're not a schmuck if you enter into a relationship with a pwBPD. Because a lot of this (not all) is normal in the beginning of many relationships, you don't experience the deal breaking abnormalities until later.) But, this is a temporary stage, a normal relationship matures out of this giddiness into something deeper, more substantial, or it is ended in a mature way. I'll bet your relationship never matured into that deeper stage. In fact, I'll bet it went from "you're my everything" to "you're my nothing" from her (her dictating the relationship) with no stopovers in between. That's not emotional maturity.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2016, 12:46:34 PM »

Once Removed, you just brought up a thing that I have always lived by, "the truth always comes out".  Unfortunately, this relationship has been over for 3 years and I have yet to get the truth, I've never waited this long.  

If she felt emotions very deeply, I don't think she would give me the stonewall act or ghosting, I love all these terms.

I always heard that if you treated someone well, they will comeback, not for a relationship, but just to settle things.  

I don't hate any of my exes, but I also don't expect and am not best friends with any.  But I do know that if I had an emergency they would help.  This BPD would rather be enemies? That is not void of emotion or overly emotional.

I always hear that indifference is a key word, certainly ignoring takes energy, and emotion. See how confusing this is.
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2016, 01:03:22 PM »

jonathan525, i recommend you do a google search on "emotional immaturity" in order to break this down. among all the returns are some themes like: emotional volatility, self centeredness, attention seeking behaviors, dependency, and impulsivity.

here are two links: www.selfgrowth.com/articles/the-differences-between-emotional-maturity-and-immaturity

www.examiner.com/article/signs-of-emotional-immaturity

This BPD would rather be enemies? That is not void of emotion or overly emotional.

no, but it is certainly characteristic of emotional immaturity. to reiterate, emotional immaturity is not void of emotion.

having said all that jonathan525, if youve not heard from this person in three years, chances are you are not going to. i dont see that, at this point, as stonewalling or silent treatment. if my ex contacted me, chances are i would not respond; not because i hate her or see her as my enemy, more because its been five years, we have nothing to say to each other, and i have no desire to have her in my life. im not suggesting thats what your ex is experiencing, but that she has communicated that she would prefer no communication. it sucks, i understand, but shes entitled to that.

are you waiting for her to come back and contact you?

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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2016, 01:05:13 PM »

See how confusing this is.

Yes, it is extremely confusing behavior.  It is not rational.  We are indeed dealing with serious mental illness.

If she felt emotions very deeply, I don't think she would give me the stonewall act or ghosting, I love all these terms.

I always heard that if you treated someone well, they will comeback, not for a relationship, but just to settle things.

I think we need to discuss the concept of triggering.  A trigger is something (an object, person, location, smell, concept, sound, words, or nearly anything else) that recalls extreme emotions - often traumatic.  One of the hardest things to come to grips with is that we became a trigger for our ex.  We are now the source of extremely painful emotions.  The very thought of us hurts tremendously.  One of the ways this is dealt with is by shutting off those emotions - deeply suppressing them.  It is a highly unhealthy, primitive coping mechanism that pwBPD often learn early in life to survive their extreme emotions - stop feeling.  Other times we may be "split black" where we are erased of all positive qualities and everything about us is awful.  This is helpful in disconnecting all of those painful emotions of separation from an attachment.

The important thing to realize is that pwBPD aren't behaving this way because they don't care.  It's exactly the opposite: they care to an overwhelming degree.  This is again about self preservation.  We all recoil from pain.  When we touch a hot stove we instinctively jerk our hand away.  Yes, we can consciously override this and force ourselves to keep our hand there, but most of us aren't going to do that because it is damaging us.  It is critical to realize that this pain is not phantom to a pwBPD - it is very, very real.  They are indeed feeling it.  Overwhelmingly.  It's like a touching a red hot stove.

Your ex almost certainly does care.  She just cares too much and the thought of you hurts too much to handle.  She is avoiding you because she can't deal with even the thought of you, let alone interacting with you.  This is very hard to understand, but this is BPD.  It is mental illness.
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2016, 01:12:42 PM »

I really want you people to understand, I do appreciate all the input.  It may not be stonewalling of silent treatment 3 years later, but when did that stop? The first day she did it? One month? A year? When does it no longer become the silent treatment?  

I don't think I would ever take her back, but like I said being enemies or ignoring each other takes effort and emotion.

So now that I told you that the truth has yet to come out, you must think I will never get the truth.  

If she cared she wouldn't black ball me.  What that means is she doesn't understand hurt... .again I go back to TV... .when Apollo Creed gets killed in Rocky... .do they just think... .oh well? Or when soldiers are killed over seas... .no big deal?
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2016, 02:25:19 PM »

Hi Jonathan525

Cosmo added some nice stuff to this thread.    It's a serious mental illness.    It's not logical.    It is predictable.

My partner is bipolar and BPD.    When those illnesses are effecting her behavior some unusual stuff can happen.   

It's the people who are closest, who are most intimately involved with the pwBPD that trigger the disorder.   Objects or people that are kept at a distance don't experience what we do.

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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2016, 02:35:49 PM »

How is it predictable? If it was predictable, then help is available. 

I obviously understand that unusual stuff can happen, that doesn't mean that it is OK.  Just because someone has an illness doesn't mean they have a right to treat you with disrespect, which includes the silent treatment.  Babyducks I wish you well, but you have a long road ahead of you.  There are numerous sites that state these people never change, good luck with your battle.
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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2016, 02:46:06 PM »

Of course it's not okay.

Yes, help is available.    It's not at all easy.  People have to be willing to do hard work.

My partner's illness isn't an excuse to treat me with disrespect.   She doesn't do it and I use the tools and skills I learned here to see that there is respect on both sides of the relationship.

The simplest way I can say it is understanding how the disorder causes her to process life, how she views, sees, feels things helps me to respond in healthy reasonable ways.

Make sense?
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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2016, 02:52:06 PM »

Well I guess I'm in a different situation, I was given the silent treatment and am trying to figure out what happened.  I don't understand ignoring someone for life.
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »

Of course you don't understand ignoring some one for life.  You don't process your emotions and thoughts using the same traits as she does.

She sees life very very differently than you do.  I'm going to guess that you are normally pretty logical and think about the facts of things.

That's not at all how she is wired.  Feelings come first.  It's all about the harmfully intense hard to control feelings.

Different people find different ways to  cope with those intense emotions.     It sounds as if maybe she dealt with hers by turning them off so hard she broke the switch.

What do you think ?
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2016, 03:18:02 PM »

So she decided to break the switch and never talk to me again, and that is a way to control her feelings? How so? I do know that I dislike her more and more with the input I receive.  I deal with things logically, it doesn't meant I'm smarter or dumber than anyone else, its common sense.  These people know what they are doing, there is no doubt in my mind.

If I all of the sudden shut one of my friends out of my life, I would know it, it would have a feeling on me.  I would notice, hey I cant call him anymore, I burned that bridge.
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2016, 03:39:26 PM »

If I all of the sudden shut one of my friends out of my life, I would know it, it would have a feeling on me.  I would notice, hey I cant call him anymore, I burned that bridge.

the key here is that you are describing how you would perceive things. as babyducks said, she sees life very differently than you do. BPD is a serious mental illness. these things will not make sense if you try to put yourself in her shoes.
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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2016, 03:48:04 PM »

the point is that she would notice that I'm no longer there and she would know why. 
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2016, 03:53:26 PM »

lets focus on your detachment process: do you intend to wait for her to contact you?
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2016, 03:54:05 PM »

the point is that she would notice that I'm no longer there and she would know why. 

Why do you think you aren't in contact?

Do you want to be in contact?

Are you curious for academic reasons about her beliefs?

Do you want company in hating her? (That's okay. Not judging.)

What will end this painful episode for you? What do you think it will take for you to not care what she thinks or why she's not in your life?
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2016, 09:22:33 PM »

Why do you folks keep changing the topic? The fact is BPD people know exactly what they're doing during a breakup. 

I told you guys that they know what they're doing, I keep proving it because you have no answers.  Unless she is an emotional zombie she knows what she did, she knew that when she ended things it meant never talking again.  Steel I have told you numerous times why were not in contact, its not important why were not in contact, but she knows we're not in contact, she can comprehend thingIds, she's not immature like people claim.  I don't want anyone hating her. that's pointless.  But you could be honest with others and tell them that kissing butt to these PD people is not always the way.  Some of you seem so out of left field, you blame me.
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« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2016, 10:01:48 PM »

Hi Jonathan,

You say you're here to "figure out what happened." What does that mean to you, and what about this board made you think it was the right place to accomplish that goal? After three years, what brought you here now?

This board is about gaining an accurate understanding of how BPD affects a relationship/breakup, but also thinking about how we contributed to the breakdown of the relationship, why we entered or stayed in that kind of relationship, and how we can be less vulnerable in the future.

All of that can be hard to do when you're really angry and feeling like you got totally blindsided and crushed by a crazy person. We've all felt that way at times. But you might be surprised how things change, and how much more peace and control you can feel, if you stick around here and read through the Lessons with an open mind.
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« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2016, 10:09:59 PM »

I told you guys that they know what they're doing, I keep proving it because you have no answers.  Unless she is an emotional zombie she knows what she did, she knew that when she ended things it meant never talking again.

Okay Jonathan, you've gotten your answer ^^^^, so what's next for you now?
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2016, 10:13:50 PM »

Quote from: Jonathan525
, she's not immature like people claim

Yet earlier you said:

Part of life is learning and when this went down, I understand she has every right to end a relationship anyway she wants, even if text break up is immature. What I don't understand is how a 43 year old woman, can be so immature.

In my own case, my then 31 yo ex, after a 6 year r/s, a 3 yo, and a baby, basically went off the rails and acted like a teen mom for many months. It was shocking to me to see a professional woman behave with such immaturity. Later, she reverted to her emotional baseline. People with BPD traits have an unstable sense of self, and a distorted world-view in many ways. We have members here whose BPD partners are doctors, lawyers, therapists, and other professionals. My mother is a Registred Nurse, and was always a supervisor. She suffers from multiple mental illnesses, in addition to BPD. People can hide their traits well behind closed doors. Intimacy triggers disordered traits. I hid a suicide ideation which happened Christmas Day a few years ago.

At the core of immaturity is self-centeredness:

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity from When the man in your life can't commit by David Hawkins:

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

You've expressed disdain for textbook explanations. Here is a discussion hosted by a member who recovered from BPD. This might help to integrate how she may have felt with her actions:

BPD Behaviors: How it feels to have BPD




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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2016, 10:14:01 PM »

Figuring out what happened means that, why she ended it, why she has given me the cold shoulder for three years? I don't know how much you have read my posts, or just got here and read the last couple or so.  But BPD are smarter than many people on here like to give credit, they understand emotions, they know they are dumping you, they know they're changing their phone number so you cant contact them.  They're not stupid.  They know hurt.  

what lessons around here? the only thing I see is hurt people, and sadly none of them have deserved it.  Not one person on this site asked for this type of hurt.  BPDs will shun you, and never talk to you again. I want people to know that is the reality.  When its over its over.
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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2016, 10:42:08 PM »

what lessons around here? the only thing I see is hurt people, and sadly none of them have deserved it.  Not one person on this site asked for this type of hurt.  

You're absolutely right, no one asked for this type of hurt.

I saw some red flags but ignored them.  

This is just one of the reasons why we get hurt. What were the red flags you saw Jonathan?
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« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2016, 10:49:33 PM »

That she was separated, not divorced.
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« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2016, 11:07:12 PM »

That she was separated, not divorced.

This isn't exclusive to BPD. Many non disordered people lie about their marital status.

No one here can diagnose your ex, that takes a licensed professional however below are some BPD characteristics.

The DSM criteria note that people with BPD have a pattern of unstable relationships, self-image and mood, as well as impulsive behavior. These typically begin in early adulthood.

For BPD to be diagnosed, at least five of the following signs and symptoms must be present:

* Intense fears of abandonment

* A pattern of unstable relationships

* Unstable self-image

* Impulsive and self-destructive behaviors

* Suicidal behavior or self-injury

* Wide mood swings

* Chronic feelings of emptiness

* Inappropriate anger

* Periods of paranoia and loss of contact with reality
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« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2016, 11:25:07 PM »

I never said it was exclusive to BPD. Nothing is exclusive to BPD if you want to get technical.  She didn't lie about it, but she had been separated for 5 years. I'm sorry Susan I can tell that you have not read this thread, you're rehashing things that have already been stated.  Im fully aware of BPS characteristics, I didn't come here just climbing out from under a rock.
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« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2016, 11:32:55 PM »

She didn't lie about it, but she had been separated for 5 years.

Fair enough. What characteristics did you see?
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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2016, 12:04:06 AM »

Why do you folks keep changing the topic? The fact is BPD people know exactly what they're doing during a breakup. 

I told you guys that they know what they're doing, I keep proving it because you have no answers.  Unless she is an emotional zombie she knows what she did, she knew that when she ended things it meant never talking again.  Steel I have told you numerous times why were not in contact, its not important why were not in contact, but she knows we're not in contact, she can comprehend thingIds, she's not immature like people claim.  I don't want anyone hating her. that's pointless.  But you could be honest with others and tell them that kissing butt to these PD people is not always the way.  Some of you seem so out of left field, you blame me.

jonathan525, we are attempting to keep the topic focused on you because this has gone in circles. you have one experience with one undiagnosed person with BPD out of millions, yet you use blanket "they" statements. suggestions at gaining a more clinically accurate depiction of BPD seem to have gone unheard.

youve rejected all attempts at self awareness or awareness of BPD as "kissing butt to these PD". you dont seem to want to hear it.

for three years this person has communicated to you that she does not wish to be in contact  you dont seem to want to hear it. though your original posts asks for insight as to why she would not want to communicate with you, you are dismissing any question as to why you think she might not want to communicate with you. you dont seem to want to hear it.

i think we all get that youre hurting and trying to understand. weve been through it. its complex and painful stuff.

if you reject the tenets of BPD as "textbooks", then what exactly are you asking? what is it youre trying to understand that you havent already decided? how can we best help you?
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« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2016, 12:10:17 AM »

I understand this person has not wanted to be in contact with me for 3 years, I have granted her that.  I wanted to know why, not one of you have explained it.  As far as mine being a single incident, you need to do your homework, on Silent Treatment, Ghosting, Ostracizing, Stonewalling, all of it. Mine is very similar to those, though those words never come out of anyone on this board, I find that interesting.  You don't have to respond to me either once removed if your so annoyed. Thanks for your help anyways.
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« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2016, 12:23:37 AM »

jonathan525, im not annoyed with you. when i was 18 i dated a girl for a mere three months. 11 years later i still have haunting dreams about her. id like to know why as well. im a bit annoyed with myself. i understand the trauma of ghosting. from my perspective, my ex and i were on an upswing in our relationship. shed just told me that she had fallen in love with me all over again. a week or so later she, for the first time in our relationship, went super distant on me, something that triggered me big time as every ex before her had done the same. everything sounded very rational. we were in our mid 20s. she wanted to flirt, we werent going anywhere. hell, id neglected her. she insisted she wanted to be single, something she offered unwarranted, i never asked. i gave it a couple of days and assumed she was sincere and merely changed my facebook relationship status. hours later, the guy shed lined up for the past couple of months (unknown to me at the time) was thrown in my face.

i understand the depths to which this can break your heart. i also understand that we can only speculate as to "why". we have attempted to explain it the best we can, in terms of BPD psychopathology. if none of it fits, it doesnt fit; perhaps your ex has comorbidity, theres really no telling, you know her better than we do.

we are here to support you through this. youre asking important questions and trying to gain understanding like all of us here. i suspect it will help you to be a bit more receptive to the feedback youre seeking. we do understand what youve been through and we are here to help.
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Turkish
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« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2016, 12:38:15 AM »

So focus it back on the silent treatment. Many of us have been there:

Silent Treatment
Verbal/Emotional Abuse - Silent Treatment

Verbal abuse, in general, is a means of maintaining control and Power Over. Verbal abuse is a violation, not a conflict. In describing verbal abuse it is a boundary violation, it is an intrusion upon another, or disregard of another in a relentless pursuit of Power Over, superiority and dominance by covert or overt means.

Silence a.k.a. Withholding is the most damaging and hurtful form of verbal abuse. One might think that in order for the behavior to be considered verbal abusive words need to be spoken. This misunderstanding of verbal abuse adds to the recipient’s confusion within the relationship. The recipient of silence/withholding may believe the relationship is functional because the abuser may communicate functional information, but refuses—through silence/ withholding (non-responsive)—to communicate on an intimate level.

There needs to be more than an exchange of information. Healthy relationships require intimacy. Intimacy requires empathy. To hear and be heard and to understand another’s feelings and experiences is empathetic comprehension.

Simply stated, silence/withholding is a choice to keep virtually all one’s thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams to oneself and to remain silent and aloof toward another, to reveal as little as possible, and to maintain an attitude of cool indifference, control and Power Over.

The consequences of any form of verbal abuse may vary in intensity, depth and breadth. However the outcome of any form of verbal abuse impacts the receiver’s self-perception, emotional well-being and spiritual vitality. Verbal abuse takes the joy and vitality out of life through the distortions of reality, because the abuser’s response does not coincide with the sender’s communication.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70004.0

JoannaK

Not getting answers or closure is what most of us struggle with. It took me over two years; even so, I'm still frustrated. I'll never get validation from an invalidating person. Logically, I know that. Emotionally, it's tougher to realize.
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2016, 12:56:22 AM »

Turkish. I think you need to take a serious step away from the text book.  I have been given the silent treatment for 3 years.  I didn't need a text book to tell me that the silent treatment is wrong. 
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Turkish
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« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2016, 01:23:46 AM »

Turkish. I think you need to take a serious step away from the text book.  I have been given the silent treatment for 3 years.  I didn't need a text book to tell me that the silent treatment is wrong.  

After our first short recycle, I wanted nothing whatsoever to do with her again. Despite two kids now, I honestly would like nothing better than to never contact her again, though that's unrealistic in my case. I'm not BPD. That's my right to feel that way.

My T pointed out that my Ex had a right, as an "independent entity" to make her own choices, no matter how unwise or hurtful they were.

BPD aside, can you accept that she is an independent person, free to make her own choices?

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    “For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.” ― Rudyard Kipling
Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2016, 01:34:17 AM »

Of course I can accept she is an independent person and free to make her own choices.  So  I guess that's it, shut down this site, Turkish has it all figured out, people are allowed to make their own decisions... .what a novel concept.  Well I guess that wraps everything up.  Nothing more to be said, all you folks out there, just remember it has nothing to do with BPD its all just you needing to accept that people have the right to make their own choices.  Wow great insight.
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« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2016, 02:25:49 AM »

I think the short answer to this is she hates you.
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« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2016, 02:28:40 AM »

Yes they know exactly what they are doing. Think back, did she tell you how she was in not so many words? My ex disappeared without saying anything Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). I remember once she told me she could switch off her emotions and feelings. She also told me she holds a grudge for two or three years then she can speak to them. I wasn't the only man she ghosted. Bpds are known to come backs years later. In my opinion people with this disease are COWARDS. Yes they know what they are doing! Bpd is zero excuse for their actions.
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In the eye for an eye game, he who cares least, wins. I, for one. am never stepping into the ring with someone who is impulsive and doesn't think of the downstream consequences.
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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2016, 07:29:15 AM »

I agree my ex who hasn't had any contact with me in 3 years, I know its over, and yes I have accepted that she hates me.
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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2016, 09:28:33 AM »

No. She hates herself.

She knows what she did to you. Every time she looks at you, she knows.

People tell themselves stories of their lives. Her story is she is a great woman. A great woman does not cheat, lie, treat people the way she did you.

We are mirrors to our partners. She doesn't like the mirror you are because it tells her the truth about the story of her life.

A mirror that doesn't reflect reality is one they put in a fun house. That's her house, it's where she lives. It's her life story. She can look into any mirror there and the distorted mirror tells her what she wants to believe.

You see, it's not about you at all. It's about her.

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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2016, 09:47:48 AM »

No she hates me.  She doesn't treat everyone the way she did me.

She certainly isn't mirroring me either as I have not seen her in 3 years.  So I know that's not the problem.
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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2016, 09:50:40 AM »

No, she isn't mirroring you. When she looks at you, she sees what she did. It reflects back to her. It's all she sees. It's always easier to project onto someone else instead of taking responsibility.
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Jonathan Ricciardi
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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2016, 09:52:37 AM »

I repeat I have not seen her in 3 year, she is by no means mirroring me. 
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