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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: BPD Stonewalling and Silent Treatment  (Read 1615 times)
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2016, 12:44:34 PM »

She showed about 90% of the things you listed.  I know many couples who start out that way and get married, and it last, getting to know someone in a new relationship is always a whirlwind.

You're starting to make me feel stupid, because I fell for it.

Again if they're emotionally immature, that of a 3 year old, they would never get into relationships. 

Jonathan525

You're quite right, many normal people get into relationships with some of these same characteristics present. They serve a biological function to secure the attraction/attachment: it changes brain chemistry. (This is why you're not stupid. This is why you're not a schmuck if you enter into a relationship with a pwBPD. Because a lot of this (not all) is normal in the beginning of many relationships, you don't experience the deal breaking abnormalities until later.) But, this is a temporary stage, a normal relationship matures out of this giddiness into something deeper, more substantial, or it is ended in a mature way. I'll bet your relationship never matured into that deeper stage. In fact, I'll bet it went from "you're my everything" to "you're my nothing" from her (her dictating the relationship) with no stopovers in between. That's not emotional maturity.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2016, 12:46:34 PM »

Once Removed, you just brought up a thing that I have always lived by, "the truth always comes out".  Unfortunately, this relationship has been over for 3 years and I have yet to get the truth, I've never waited this long.  

If she felt emotions very deeply, I don't think she would give me the stonewall act or ghosting, I love all these terms.

I always heard that if you treated someone well, they will comeback, not for a relationship, but just to settle things.  

I don't hate any of my exes, but I also don't expect and am not best friends with any.  But I do know that if I had an emergency they would help.  This BPD would rather be enemies? That is not void of emotion or overly emotional.

I always hear that indifference is a key word, certainly ignoring takes energy, and emotion. See how confusing this is.
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2016, 01:03:22 PM »

jonathan525, i recommend you do a google search on "emotional immaturity" in order to break this down. among all the returns are some themes like: emotional volatility, self centeredness, attention seeking behaviors, dependency, and impulsivity.

here are two links: www.selfgrowth.com/articles/the-differences-between-emotional-maturity-and-immaturity

www.examiner.com/article/signs-of-emotional-immaturity

This BPD would rather be enemies? That is not void of emotion or overly emotional.

no, but it is certainly characteristic of emotional immaturity. to reiterate, emotional immaturity is not void of emotion.

having said all that jonathan525, if youve not heard from this person in three years, chances are you are not going to. i dont see that, at this point, as stonewalling or silent treatment. if my ex contacted me, chances are i would not respond; not because i hate her or see her as my enemy, more because its been five years, we have nothing to say to each other, and i have no desire to have her in my life. im not suggesting thats what your ex is experiencing, but that she has communicated that she would prefer no communication. it sucks, i understand, but shes entitled to that.

are you waiting for her to come back and contact you?

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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2016, 01:05:13 PM »

See how confusing this is.

Yes, it is extremely confusing behavior.  It is not rational.  We are indeed dealing with serious mental illness.

If she felt emotions very deeply, I don't think she would give me the stonewall act or ghosting, I love all these terms.

I always heard that if you treated someone well, they will comeback, not for a relationship, but just to settle things.

I think we need to discuss the concept of triggering.  A trigger is something (an object, person, location, smell, concept, sound, words, or nearly anything else) that recalls extreme emotions - often traumatic.  One of the hardest things to come to grips with is that we became a trigger for our ex.  We are now the source of extremely painful emotions.  The very thought of us hurts tremendously.  One of the ways this is dealt with is by shutting off those emotions - deeply suppressing them.  It is a highly unhealthy, primitive coping mechanism that pwBPD often learn early in life to survive their extreme emotions - stop feeling.  Other times we may be "split black" where we are erased of all positive qualities and everything about us is awful.  This is helpful in disconnecting all of those painful emotions of separation from an attachment.

The important thing to realize is that pwBPD aren't behaving this way because they don't care.  It's exactly the opposite: they care to an overwhelming degree.  This is again about self preservation.  We all recoil from pain.  When we touch a hot stove we instinctively jerk our hand away.  Yes, we can consciously override this and force ourselves to keep our hand there, but most of us aren't going to do that because it is damaging us.  It is critical to realize that this pain is not phantom to a pwBPD - it is very, very real.  They are indeed feeling it.  Overwhelmingly.  It's like a touching a red hot stove.

Your ex almost certainly does care.  She just cares too much and the thought of you hurts too much to handle.  She is avoiding you because she can't deal with even the thought of you, let alone interacting with you.  This is very hard to understand, but this is BPD.  It is mental illness.
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2016, 01:12:42 PM »

I really want you people to understand, I do appreciate all the input.  It may not be stonewalling of silent treatment 3 years later, but when did that stop? The first day she did it? One month? A year? When does it no longer become the silent treatment?  

I don't think I would ever take her back, but like I said being enemies or ignoring each other takes effort and emotion.

So now that I told you that the truth has yet to come out, you must think I will never get the truth.  

If she cared she wouldn't black ball me.  What that means is she doesn't understand hurt... .again I go back to TV... .when Apollo Creed gets killed in Rocky... .do they just think... .oh well? Or when soldiers are killed over seas... .no big deal?
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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2016, 02:25:19 PM »

Hi Jonathan525

Cosmo added some nice stuff to this thread.    It's a serious mental illness.    It's not logical.    It is predictable.

My partner is bipolar and BPD.    When those illnesses are effecting her behavior some unusual stuff can happen.   

It's the people who are closest, who are most intimately involved with the pwBPD that trigger the disorder.   Objects or people that are kept at a distance don't experience what we do.

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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2016, 02:35:49 PM »

How is it predictable? If it was predictable, then help is available. 

I obviously understand that unusual stuff can happen, that doesn't mean that it is OK.  Just because someone has an illness doesn't mean they have a right to treat you with disrespect, which includes the silent treatment.  Babyducks I wish you well, but you have a long road ahead of you.  There are numerous sites that state these people never change, good luck with your battle.
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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2016, 02:46:06 PM »

Of course it's not okay.

Yes, help is available.    It's not at all easy.  People have to be willing to do hard work.

My partner's illness isn't an excuse to treat me with disrespect.   She doesn't do it and I use the tools and skills I learned here to see that there is respect on both sides of the relationship.

The simplest way I can say it is understanding how the disorder causes her to process life, how she views, sees, feels things helps me to respond in healthy reasonable ways.

Make sense?
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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2016, 02:52:06 PM »

Well I guess I'm in a different situation, I was given the silent treatment and am trying to figure out what happened.  I don't understand ignoring someone for life.
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »

Of course you don't understand ignoring some one for life.  You don't process your emotions and thoughts using the same traits as she does.

She sees life very very differently than you do.  I'm going to guess that you are normally pretty logical and think about the facts of things.

That's not at all how she is wired.  Feelings come first.  It's all about the harmfully intense hard to control feelings.

Different people find different ways to  cope with those intense emotions.     It sounds as if maybe she dealt with hers by turning them off so hard she broke the switch.

What do you think ?
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2016, 03:18:02 PM »

So she decided to break the switch and never talk to me again, and that is a way to control her feelings? How so? I do know that I dislike her more and more with the input I receive.  I deal with things logically, it doesn't meant I'm smarter or dumber than anyone else, its common sense.  These people know what they are doing, there is no doubt in my mind.

If I all of the sudden shut one of my friends out of my life, I would know it, it would have a feeling on me.  I would notice, hey I cant call him anymore, I burned that bridge.
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2016, 03:39:26 PM »

If I all of the sudden shut one of my friends out of my life, I would know it, it would have a feeling on me.  I would notice, hey I cant call him anymore, I burned that bridge.

the key here is that you are describing how you would perceive things. as babyducks said, she sees life very differently than you do. BPD is a serious mental illness. these things will not make sense if you try to put yourself in her shoes.
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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2016, 03:48:04 PM »

the point is that she would notice that I'm no longer there and she would know why. 
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2016, 03:53:26 PM »

lets focus on your detachment process: do you intend to wait for her to contact you?
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2016, 03:54:05 PM »

the point is that she would notice that I'm no longer there and she would know why. 

Why do you think you aren't in contact?

Do you want to be in contact?

Are you curious for academic reasons about her beliefs?

Do you want company in hating her? (That's okay. Not judging.)

What will end this painful episode for you? What do you think it will take for you to not care what she thinks or why she's not in your life?
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2016, 09:22:33 PM »

Why do you folks keep changing the topic? The fact is BPD people know exactly what they're doing during a breakup. 

I told you guys that they know what they're doing, I keep proving it because you have no answers.  Unless she is an emotional zombie she knows what she did, she knew that when she ended things it meant never talking again.  Steel I have told you numerous times why were not in contact, its not important why were not in contact, but she knows we're not in contact, she can comprehend thingIds, she's not immature like people claim.  I don't want anyone hating her. that's pointless.  But you could be honest with others and tell them that kissing butt to these PD people is not always the way.  Some of you seem so out of left field, you blame me.
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« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2016, 10:01:48 PM »

Hi Jonathan,

You say you're here to "figure out what happened." What does that mean to you, and what about this board made you think it was the right place to accomplish that goal? After three years, what brought you here now?

This board is about gaining an accurate understanding of how BPD affects a relationship/breakup, but also thinking about how we contributed to the breakdown of the relationship, why we entered or stayed in that kind of relationship, and how we can be less vulnerable in the future.

All of that can be hard to do when you're really angry and feeling like you got totally blindsided and crushed by a crazy person. We've all felt that way at times. But you might be surprised how things change, and how much more peace and control you can feel, if you stick around here and read through the Lessons with an open mind.
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« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2016, 10:09:59 PM »

I told you guys that they know what they're doing, I keep proving it because you have no answers.  Unless she is an emotional zombie she knows what she did, she knew that when she ended things it meant never talking again.

Okay Jonathan, you've gotten your answer ^^^^, so what's next for you now?
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2016, 10:13:50 PM »

Quote from: Jonathan525
, she's not immature like people claim

Yet earlier you said:

Part of life is learning and when this went down, I understand she has every right to end a relationship anyway she wants, even if text break up is immature. What I don't understand is how a 43 year old woman, can be so immature.

In my own case, my then 31 yo ex, after a 6 year r/s, a 3 yo, and a baby, basically went off the rails and acted like a teen mom for many months. It was shocking to me to see a professional woman behave with such immaturity. Later, she reverted to her emotional baseline. People with BPD traits have an unstable sense of self, and a distorted world-view in many ways. We have members here whose BPD partners are doctors, lawyers, therapists, and other professionals. My mother is a Registred Nurse, and was always a supervisor. She suffers from multiple mental illnesses, in addition to BPD. People can hide their traits well behind closed doors. Intimacy triggers disordered traits. I hid a suicide ideation which happened Christmas Day a few years ago.

At the core of immaturity is self-centeredness:

Here are some characteristics of emotional immaturity from When the man in your life can't commit by David Hawkins:

1. Volatile Emotions Emotional volatility is indicated by such things as explosive behavior, temper tantrums, low frustration tolerance, responses out of proportion to cause, oversensitivity, inability to take criticism, unreasonable jealousy, unwillingness to forgive, and a capricious fluctuation of moods.

2. Over-Dependence Healthy human development proceeds from dependence (I need you), to independence (I don’t need anyone), to interdependence (we need each other — see also the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey).

Over-dependence is indicated by: a) inappropriate dependence, e.g. relying on someone when it is preferable to be self-reliant, and b) too great a degree of dependence for too long. This includes being too easily influenced, indecisive, and prone to snap judgments. Overly-dependent people fear change preferring accustomed situations and behavior to the uncertainty of change and the challenge of adjustment. Extreme conservatism may even be a symptom.

3. Stimulation Hunger This includes demanding immediate attention or gratification and being unable to wait for anything. Stimulation hungry people are incapable of deferred gratification, which means to put off present desires in order to gain a future reward. Stimulation hungry people are superficial and live thoughtlessly and impulsively. Their personal loyalty lasts only as long as the usefulness of the relationship. They have superficial values and are too concerned with trivia (their appearance, etc.). Their social and financial lives are chaotic.

4. Egocentricity Egocentricity is self-centeredness. It’s major manifestation is selfishness. It is associated with low self-esteem. Self-centered people have no regard for others, but they also have only slight regard for themselves. An egocentric person is preoccupied with his own feelings and symptoms. He demands constant attention and insists on self-gratifying sympathy, fishes for compliments, and makes unreasonable demands. He is typically overly-competitive, a poor loser, perfectionistic, and refuses to play or work if he can’t have his own way.

A self-centered person does not see himself realistically, does not take responsibility for his own mistakes or deficiencies, is unable to constructively criticize himself, and is insensitive to the feelings of others. Only emotionally mature people can experience true empathy, and empathy is a prime requirement for successful relationships.

You've expressed disdain for textbook explanations. Here is a discussion hosted by a member who recovered from BPD. This might help to integrate how she may have felt with her actions:

BPD Behaviors: How it feels to have BPD




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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2016, 10:14:01 PM »

Figuring out what happened means that, why she ended it, why she has given me the cold shoulder for three years? I don't know how much you have read my posts, or just got here and read the last couple or so.  But BPD are smarter than many people on here like to give credit, they understand emotions, they know they are dumping you, they know they're changing their phone number so you cant contact them.  They're not stupid.  They know hurt.  

what lessons around here? the only thing I see is hurt people, and sadly none of them have deserved it.  Not one person on this site asked for this type of hurt.  BPDs will shun you, and never talk to you again. I want people to know that is the reality.  When its over its over.
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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2016, 10:42:08 PM »

what lessons around here? the only thing I see is hurt people, and sadly none of them have deserved it.  Not one person on this site asked for this type of hurt.  

You're absolutely right, no one asked for this type of hurt.

I saw some red flags but ignored them.  

This is just one of the reasons why we get hurt. What were the red flags you saw Jonathan?
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« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2016, 10:49:33 PM »

That she was separated, not divorced.
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« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2016, 11:07:12 PM »

That she was separated, not divorced.

This isn't exclusive to BPD. Many non disordered people lie about their marital status.

No one here can diagnose your ex, that takes a licensed professional however below are some BPD characteristics.

The DSM criteria note that people with BPD have a pattern of unstable relationships, self-image and mood, as well as impulsive behavior. These typically begin in early adulthood.

For BPD to be diagnosed, at least five of the following signs and symptoms must be present:

* Intense fears of abandonment

* A pattern of unstable relationships

* Unstable self-image

* Impulsive and self-destructive behaviors

* Suicidal behavior or self-injury

* Wide mood swings

* Chronic feelings of emptiness

* Inappropriate anger

* Periods of paranoia and loss of contact with reality
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« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2016, 11:25:07 PM »

I never said it was exclusive to BPD. Nothing is exclusive to BPD if you want to get technical.  She didn't lie about it, but she had been separated for 5 years. I'm sorry Susan I can tell that you have not read this thread, you're rehashing things that have already been stated.  Im fully aware of BPS characteristics, I didn't come here just climbing out from under a rock.
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« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2016, 11:32:55 PM »

She didn't lie about it, but she had been separated for 5 years.

Fair enough. What characteristics did you see?
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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2016, 12:04:06 AM »

Why do you folks keep changing the topic? The fact is BPD people know exactly what they're doing during a breakup. 

I told you guys that they know what they're doing, I keep proving it because you have no answers.  Unless she is an emotional zombie she knows what she did, she knew that when she ended things it meant never talking again.  Steel I have told you numerous times why were not in contact, its not important why were not in contact, but she knows we're not in contact, she can comprehend thingIds, she's not immature like people claim.  I don't want anyone hating her. that's pointless.  But you could be honest with others and tell them that kissing butt to these PD people is not always the way.  Some of you seem so out of left field, you blame me.

jonathan525, we are attempting to keep the topic focused on you because this has gone in circles. you have one experience with one undiagnosed person with BPD out of millions, yet you use blanket "they" statements. suggestions at gaining a more clinically accurate depiction of BPD seem to have gone unheard.

youve rejected all attempts at self awareness or awareness of BPD as "kissing butt to these PD". you dont seem to want to hear it.

for three years this person has communicated to you that she does not wish to be in contact  you dont seem to want to hear it. though your original posts asks for insight as to why she would not want to communicate with you, you are dismissing any question as to why you think she might not want to communicate with you. you dont seem to want to hear it.

i think we all get that youre hurting and trying to understand. weve been through it. its complex and painful stuff.

if you reject the tenets of BPD as "textbooks", then what exactly are you asking? what is it youre trying to understand that you havent already decided? how can we best help you?
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« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2016, 12:10:17 AM »

I understand this person has not wanted to be in contact with me for 3 years, I have granted her that.  I wanted to know why, not one of you have explained it.  As far as mine being a single incident, you need to do your homework, on Silent Treatment, Ghosting, Ostracizing, Stonewalling, all of it. Mine is very similar to those, though those words never come out of anyone on this board, I find that interesting.  You don't have to respond to me either once removed if your so annoyed. Thanks for your help anyways.
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« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2016, 12:23:37 AM »

jonathan525, im not annoyed with you. when i was 18 i dated a girl for a mere three months. 11 years later i still have haunting dreams about her. id like to know why as well. im a bit annoyed with myself. i understand the trauma of ghosting. from my perspective, my ex and i were on an upswing in our relationship. shed just told me that she had fallen in love with me all over again. a week or so later she, for the first time in our relationship, went super distant on me, something that triggered me big time as every ex before her had done the same. everything sounded very rational. we were in our mid 20s. she wanted to flirt, we werent going anywhere. hell, id neglected her. she insisted she wanted to be single, something she offered unwarranted, i never asked. i gave it a couple of days and assumed she was sincere and merely changed my facebook relationship status. hours later, the guy shed lined up for the past couple of months (unknown to me at the time) was thrown in my face.

i understand the depths to which this can break your heart. i also understand that we can only speculate as to "why". we have attempted to explain it the best we can, in terms of BPD psychopathology. if none of it fits, it doesnt fit; perhaps your ex has comorbidity, theres really no telling, you know her better than we do.

we are here to support you through this. youre asking important questions and trying to gain understanding like all of us here. i suspect it will help you to be a bit more receptive to the feedback youre seeking. we do understand what youve been through and we are here to help.
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« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2016, 12:38:15 AM »

So focus it back on the silent treatment. Many of us have been there:

Silent Treatment
Verbal/Emotional Abuse - Silent Treatment

Verbal abuse, in general, is a means of maintaining control and Power Over. Verbal abuse is a violation, not a conflict. In describing verbal abuse it is a boundary violation, it is an intrusion upon another, or disregard of another in a relentless pursuit of Power Over, superiority and dominance by covert or overt means.

Silence a.k.a. Withholding is the most damaging and hurtful form of verbal abuse. One might think that in order for the behavior to be considered verbal abusive words need to be spoken. This misunderstanding of verbal abuse adds to the recipient’s confusion within the relationship. The recipient of silence/withholding may believe the relationship is functional because the abuser may communicate functional information, but refuses—through silence/ withholding (non-responsive)—to communicate on an intimate level.

There needs to be more than an exchange of information. Healthy relationships require intimacy. Intimacy requires empathy. To hear and be heard and to understand another’s feelings and experiences is empathetic comprehension.

Simply stated, silence/withholding is a choice to keep virtually all one’s thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams to oneself and to remain silent and aloof toward another, to reveal as little as possible, and to maintain an attitude of cool indifference, control and Power Over.

The consequences of any form of verbal abuse may vary in intensity, depth and breadth. However the outcome of any form of verbal abuse impacts the receiver’s self-perception, emotional well-being and spiritual vitality. Verbal abuse takes the joy and vitality out of life through the distortions of reality, because the abuser’s response does not coincide with the sender’s communication.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70004.0

JoannaK

Not getting answers or closure is what most of us struggle with. It took me over two years; even so, I'm still frustrated. I'll never get validation from an invalidating person. Logically, I know that. Emotionally, it's tougher to realize.
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    “For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.” ― Rudyard Kipling
Jonathan Ricciardi
AKA NC for years
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 110


« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2016, 12:56:22 AM »

Turkish. I think you need to take a serious step away from the text book.  I have been given the silent treatment for 3 years.  I didn't need a text book to tell me that the silent treatment is wrong. 
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