A most horrible encounter: please help

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi there,


I am still completely shocked at the moment. Normally I still post in the 'learning' boards, but given what I am going to tell, the 'detachment' board seems way better.


I had this female friend. 2,5 years we had quite an emotional bond, but then things went haywire. I was almost hero like before that, but after that the devaluation began and whatever I tried, nothing helped. There were times it seemed she got back to her old self, times where she seemed to say 'sorry' (without actually saying the word 'sorry', because that seems way too hard for her). After months it even was like things were normal again, but eventually everything went wrong again and she confirmed to cut off all contact.

That went well for a few months, but then I decided to send her a small Christmas text. In the months up till now that text slowly, but surely lead to a somewhat LC form of communication. I was very happy with that (, but perhaps a little confused). I somewhat tried to get my life back, but I noticed she still played quite the role inside of me.

Last week she seemed quite happy again: telling about her life etc. etc... All felt good. But then, all of a sudden, I received a text which seemed to imply a date.
It felt off, so I replied in a very evasive way, without saying anything about this date. Then I got blocked all of a sudden. I was almost sure this could NOT be her, but I was absolutely devastated. Everything seemed fine before this... .

So, I went for a walk to relieve the stress. And I walked by a bar which I used to frequent. She was there! With two guys and a girl. And there were A LOT OF PEOPLE outside their group as well.
I asked her 'What is all this?'. She shied away, but one of the guys began saying the MOST HORRIBLE things to me. Calling names, calling me things I would not like to say on these boards... .I asked her to say something, but she mumbled things like 'please, don't argue'. And sometimes she just laughed from the stress. Nothing more.

I couldn't defend myself fully, without hurting/devastating her, but I still chose to not hurt her and so I didn't tell anything really.
Eventually, the other guy and girl began to try and calm the (more drunk guy) down. It was him who had sent me that text and blocked me.
My friend just began to close herself off and just was playing with her mobile phone in the mean time. She clearly had trouble dealing with this.
The other guy seemed to be her boyfriend and he was a lot more calm. I asked to be able to talk with her. She didn't want to. And just said she would unblock me again. Her boyfriend began telling me how he knows she asked me to cut off all contact several times and asked me why I did not. I replied that she just told me that ONE TIME and that I really DID, untill I sent a Christmas text and after that things seemed to be better again. Even this week.

He asked me to cut off contact, but I replied that I wanted to hear that from her. In the meantime, the drunken dude kept calling me names, and all around her pressured her to say that she did NOT want any contact. A friend of her, whom I absolutely do not know (which seems to work there as well) pressured her as well by saying I could be dangerous. BUT SHE $#%@$!^ DID NOT SAY IT? SHE DID NOT LET HER PRESSURE INTO SAYING THIS?

The only thing she said to me:
She just said that she didn't like the fact that I accused her at that spot. For the record, I did NOT accuse her at all. I just said I thought this all was absolutely horrible. But that was probably the shame kicking in immensily.

Her boyfriend got somewhat confused and I told him that we had a bond, I am most certainly NOT his competition, but I thought this whole thing was extremely... .well... .choose your own wordings which imply the brutality, awfulness, injustice etc. etc.

He proposed to talk with me outside the group. We started, but soon I felt I was risking talking behind her back. We both then asked her to join us, and finally she did... reluctantly.

She was completely 'weird' and it felt like she was desperately trying to avoid all the shame or something. But we talked. I told them a lot, but not everything. Just to 'protect her' in a way. Her boyfriend changed his opinion. She kept saying how she NEVER said anything wrong about me, but he said that she should acknowledge that she kinda did.
She refused and he backed down.
She asked me what I wanted, but I told her that it is and was about what SHE wanted. Did she really want to cut off all contact? She kept saying she could send this, or she wanted to send that, so it was clear she DID NOT want to cut it off.
HER BOYFRIEND (!) concluded that indeed that was not the case and he told her he was fine with it and that I seemed like a stand up guy. He promised me to rectify this image of me among the other friends of his group that were there.
He asked me for my number to meet up again, all 3 of us. But I just said he could ask her for my contact details, but I was sure as hell willing to meet up again.
What was quite the eye opener, was how I told her I really cared and still care about her and that I truly liked her etc... But she picked up on my past tense regarding the 'liking'. She did NOT like that. I thought/hoped her boyfriend picked that up as well. That was really odd... .

I could NOT sleep that night. I was thankful (that boyfriend was my salvation in a way), but all those accusations haunted me. That night she unblocked me. I did NOT send her anything.

The other day, she sent me a text around midnight. How she thought this all was terrible and she never wanted this to happen. Again, not a true apology, but that's her way of doing it. She told me she told the others the accusations were not true.

I was still hurting tbh. And I told her a lot of other people heard that as well that evening. And I did not dare to enter that bar again... .I told her I appreciated her text, but I needed to reflect on all of this.

Yesterday I finally told her that this was devastating, but that I appreciated the actions of her boyfriend. I asked her whether or not she told her friend/employee as well that all what was said was complete nonsense. That employee/friend left early that evening, so she couldn't have been informed after our conversation. I told her that was quite important to me, because I would like to know if I could enter that bar again... .

SHE DID NOT REPLY! I tried again, but SHE JUST DID NOT?

I don't understand... .I guess she just expected me to be completely happy with her messed up excuse and be done with it. Why can't she just answer that question? Is she now mad again? Is this all shame based? Will this mean she will try and twist this all again to be able to just blame me?

Oh my... .I am most definitely not doubting her BPD anymore though :-(  :-(

I am hurt now... .AGAIN... .

[EdR]

Hi there,


I am still completely shocked at the moment. Normally I still post in the 'learning' boards, but given what I am going to tell, the 'detachment' board seems way better.


I had this female friend. 2,5 years we had quite an emotional bond, but then things went haywire. I was almost hero like before that, but after that the devaluation began and whatever I tried, nothing helped. There were times it seemed she got back to her old self, times where she seemed to say 'sorry' (without actually saying the word 'sorry', because that seems way too hard for her). After months it even was like things were normal again, but eventually everything went wrong again and she confirmed to cut off all contact.

That went well for a few months, but then I decided to send her a small Christmas text. In the months up till now that text slowly, but surely lead to a somewhat LC form of communication. I was very happy with that (, but perhaps a little confused). I somewhat tried to get my life back, but I noticed she still played quite the role inside of me.

Last week she seemed quite happy again: telling about her life etc. etc... All felt good. But then, all of a sudden, I received a text which seemed to imply a date.
It felt off, so I replied in a very evasive way, without saying anything about this date. Then I got blocked all of a sudden. I was almost sure this could NOT be her, but I was absolutely devastated. Everything seemed fine before this... .

So, I went for a walk to relieve the stress. And I walked by a bar which I used to frequent. She was there! With two guys and a girl. And there were A LOT OF PEOPLE outside their group as well.
I asked her 'What is all this?'. She shied away, but one of the guys began saying the MOST HORRIBLE things to me. Calling names, calling me things I would not like to say on these boards... .I asked her to say something, but she mumbled things like 'please, don't argue'. And sometimes she just laughed from the stress. Nothing more.

I couldn't defend myself fully, without hurting/devastating her, but I still chose to not hurt her and so I didn't tell anything really.
Eventually, the other guy and girl began to try and calm the (more drunk guy) down. It was him who had sent me that text and blocked me.
My friend just began to close herself off and just was playing with her mobile phone in the mean time. She clearly had trouble dealing with this.
The other guy seemed to be her boyfriend and he was a lot more calm. I asked to be able to talk with her. She didn't want to. And just said she would unblock me again. Her boyfriend began telling me how he knows she asked me to cut off all contact several times and asked me why I did not. I replied that she just told me that ONE TIME and that I really DID, untill I sent a Christmas text and after that things seemed to be better again. Even this week.

He asked me to cut off contact, but I replied that I wanted to hear that from her. In the meantime, the drunken dude kept calling me names, and all around her pressured her to say that she did NOT want any contact. A friend of her, whom I absolutely do not know (which seems to work there as well) pressured her as well by saying I could be dangerous. BUT SHE $#%@$!^ DID NOT SAY IT? SHE DID NOT LET HER PRESSURE INTO SAYING THIS?

The only thing she said to me:
She just said that she didn't like the fact that I accused her at that spot. For the record, I did NOT accuse her at all. I just said I thought this all was absolutely horrible. But that was probably the shame kicking in immensily.

Her boyfriend got somewhat confused and I told him that we had a bond, I am most certainly NOT his competition, but I thought this whole thing was extremely... .well... .choose your own wordings which imply the brutality, awfulness, injustice etc. etc.

He proposed to talk with me outside the group. We started, but soon I felt I was risking talking behind her back. We both then asked her to join us, and finally she did... reluctantly.

She was completely 'weird' and it felt like she was desperately trying to avoid all the shame or something. But we talked. I told them a lot, but not everything. Just to 'protect her' in a way. Her boyfriend changed his opinion. She kept saying how she NEVER said anything wrong about me, but he said that she should acknowledge that she kinda did.
She refused and he backed down.
She asked me what I wanted, but I told her that it is and was about what SHE wanted. Did she really want to cut off all contact? She kept saying she could send this, or she wanted to send that, so it was clear she DID NOT want to cut it off.
HER BOYFRIEND (!) concluded that indeed that was not the case and he told her he was fine with it and that I seemed like a stand up guy. He promised me to rectify this image of me among the other friends of his group that were there.
He asked me for my number to meet up again, all 3 of us. But I just said he could ask her for my contact details, but I was sure as hell willing to meet up again.
What was quite the eye opener, was how I told her I really cared and still care about her and that I truly liked her etc... But she picked up on my past tense regarding the 'liking'. She did NOT like that. I thought/hoped her boyfriend picked that up as well. That was really odd... .

I could NOT sleep that night. I was thankful (that boyfriend was my salvation in a way), but all those accusations haunted me. That night she unblocked me. I did NOT send her anything.

The other day, she sent me a text around midnight. How she thought this all was terrible and she never wanted this to happen. Again, not a true apology, but that's her way of doing it. She told me she told the others the accusations were not true.

I was still hurting tbh. And I told her a lot of other people heard that as well that evening. And I did not dare to enter that bar again... .I told her I appreciated her text, but I needed to reflect on all of this.

Yesterday I finally told her that this was devastating, but that I appreciated the actions of her boyfriend. I asked her whether or not she told her friend/employee as well that all what was said was complete nonsense. That employee/friend left early that evening, so she couldn't have been informed after our conversation. I told her that was quite important to me, because I would like to know if I could enter that bar again... .

SHE DID NOT REPLY! I tried again, but SHE JUST DID NOT?

I don't understand... .I guess she just expected me to be completely happy with her messed up excuse and be done with it. Why can't she just answer that question? Is she now mad again? Is this all shame based? Will this mean she will try and twist this all again to be able to just blame me?

Oh my... .I am most definitely not doubting her BPD anymore though :-(  :-(

I am hurt now... .AGAIN... .

[Cromwell]

Its why im careful with the limited contact I have, you can get used as a form of triangulation and im sure stuff has been said about me at times that she has used to get sympathy and it makes the new guy feel like a "savior". In your case you didnt even contact her and she gave the impression that you were, that was her embarrassment of being caught in the midst of it, but it could have worked out badly for you and you did well to get your point across and defuse it.

im playing with fire being in contact with my ex, but I do make a point of never texting her anything that could be construed in the remotest way as coming on to her, even though I get texts that appear for me to encourage to do so, you never know after all who is actually texting (as you found out here) as well as what the hidden agenda might be behind it.

If your not interested in a r/s with her at all, theres not much to gain by trying to get insight into why she did this. The closest Id suggest is she bad mouthed you to get attention and sympathy not realising that youd find out the way you did.

[EdR]

Thank you Cromwell.

You are absolutely right. But the hard (and weird) thing is that she just seems to expect that her lame excuse should be sufficient and things should go back to normal THAT instant.

I've seen her behave like that before and I could not seem to do the 'right thing'. Forgiving her and acting normal would come back to bite me eventually, but saying that I am hurt or asking questions would lead her to try and shift all blame on me.

I am a little scared now. Why can't she just tell me whether or not she/they also informed her friend/employee?
Otherwise, I just do not have the guts to enter that bar again :-(

[Cromwell]

Thank you Cromwell.

You are absolutely right. But the hard (and weird) thing is that she just seems to expect that her lame excuse should be sufficient and things should go back to normal THAT instant.

I've seen her behave like that before and I could not seem to do the 'right thing'. Forgiving her and acting normal would come back to bite me eventually, but saying that I am hurt or asking questions would lead her to try and shift all blame on me.

I am a little scared now. Why can't she just tell me whether or not she/they also informed her friend/employee?
Otherwise, I just do not have the guts to enter that bar again :-(

What I do suggest is the opposite of what might feel natural at the time, dont let this stop you living your life.

You have every right to go in that bar, regardless of any rumours she might have spread. You have done nothing wrong so dont act or behave as if you have and start hiding or jumping at your own shadow because of her.

People dont want confrontation, in this case, she probably whined and spun lies to the point where he felt reluctantly he had to confront you just to shut her up. Its resolved and no one lost face, except for her. You might find it has went against her because he will be very much wondering about it, your genuine reaction and willingness to talk about it speaks volumes, it is her credibility gone.  the fact she didnt talk when she had the opportunity to. "nothing to hide, nothing to fear".

Thats not to say after you have left she hasnt came up with some convincing excuses. But this is all just speculation. Dont be intimidated by any of this silliness, if the employee is too thick to realise that there are two sides to every story, and jumps to conclusions out of thin air that you "might be dangerous", I wouldnt give that kind of person much thought of what they think of you, you dont owe any of these people justification or to defend yourself, it was between you, her and your boyfriend. The rest is just background noise who like to latch on the drama and chaos that she has indeed created at your expense. All she is bothered about now is her 'reputation', I wouldnt trust her texts at all as to how much hard work - if any - she has done to repair the damage. Best is to go to the bar and find out for yourself, if you really dont feel like drinking there anymore thats a different thing and just take your money elsewhere.

[EdR]

Thanks Cromwell! You really helped a lot. I know you are right about visiting that bar anyway, so I really appreciate that. I just feel it would be really hard... .so I am not sure if I could manage to do that in the near future.

I feel extra disappointed in her, because she just didn't and doesn't answer my question after she did send this 'apology'.

In the meantime I should probably consider to try and get this girl out of my mind. I don't really see how our friendship could return to normal... .
The weird thing is that even now I don't know if I am ready to do so. In a way it would have been easier if she just said to cut off contact right there... .

[Cromwell]

Thanks Cromwell! You really helped a lot. I know you are right about visiting that bar anyway, so I really appreciate that. I just feel it would be really hard... .so I am not sure if I could manage to do that in the near future.

I feel extra disappointed in her, because she just didn't and doesn't answer my question after she did send this 'apology'.

In the meantime I should probably consider to try and get this girl out of my mind. I don't really see how our friendship could return to normal... .
The weird thing is that even now I don't know if I am ready to do so. In a way it would have been easier if she just said to cut off contact right there... .

Why would she want to cut off contact where there is the opportunity to use you to prop up her r/s. Also, have you as a safety net to fall into should she need it. Those are the 2 main strategic goals I believe are at play in triangulation. Ive been enraged at my ex, I once told her I would kill her (that angry metaphor), called her the most vile things, not spoke to her in 8 months, yet still today she texts like nothing ever happened, (on both our sides) I get adoration mixed with happy go lucky talk of the nostalgia of the past. What I expected from any reasonable minded person when I saw her after 8 months and all that happened, "f off Cromwell", but it is like nothing phases her at all. Closure just doesnt exist, in her mind we are "together forever".

Some of the difficult revelations ive had is that such a person actually exists that knows my worst side, yet still accepts it. It really is the most bizarre thing ive came across, someone on the one hand so emotional volatile, yet on the other, completely nonchalant to the point of being seemingly oblivious to all that ever happened. Its not that she forgets any of it, her memory is outstanding, I can only put it down to her "splicing" out the negative parts at any given moment in time.

There is no easy way out, at least that was my experience, sometimes I read here that they dont ever come back, but more often then not, despite some crazy disturbing behaviour in the previous r/s, they come back 6 months, a year, sometimes incredibly years later for a recycle.

i think if you make a decision you really have no not waver from it, I understand how hard it is living in the same street and you will encounter her often. That would have been almost impossible for me to deal with. I hope someone else can offer you a bit better advice how to deal with that.

[EdR]

Well, she doesn't exactly live in the same street, but indeed VERY close by. Her social life has seemed to move towards my home though... .

At the moment I think she successfully came up with excuses again and twisted the truth. She still didn't reply, but her boyfriend promised to contact me as well (though I didn't give him his number), but nothing from him either.
Luckily, I do not feel an urge to confront her with the fact she sent me an excuse text, but wasn't willing to answer my question in my reply. I just do not trust her at all anymore.

Don't know if this will last though...

[EdR]

I feel stuck guys. Getting called all these horrible things in public. Then getting an excuse text, but directly ignoring my reply... .(the question I mentioned).

What is this?

Is this indeed shame? But then... .couldn't she just say at least something?
Doesn't she care at all? But then... .why even send the excuse text?

[schwing]

Hi EdR,

I'll help try to decipher why she could be behaving in the manner that she did assuming she's dealing with BPD.  But I'd like you to consider what you want out of this relationship you have with your "female friend."

I had this female friend. 2,5 years we had quite an emotional bond, but then things went haywire. I was almost hero like before that, but after that the devaluation began and whatever I tried, nothing helped.

From my perspective, there's nothing unusual about this kind of dynamic when it comes to BPD relationships.  There is the idealization phrase which alternates with devaluation.  The longer the dynamic goes on, the less idealization there is, the more devaluation occurs.  As I understand it, the closer your relationship gets, the more likely/often your BPD loved one dysregulates their emotions.

What a lot of nonBPD loved ones ask about is "how do I get the idealization part while minimizing the devaluation"?  And in my experience, you can't.  You can't only get one side of the coin.  You get both.

After months it even was like things were normal again, but eventually everything went wrong again and she confirmed to cut off all contact.

You see, what pwBPD dysregulate over is the imagined fear that you will abandon/betray/or denigrate them.  And that is why they often cut you off (i.e. abandon you) before you can abandon them.

That went well for a few months, but then I decided to send her a small Christmas text. In the months up till now that text slowly, but surely lead to a somewhat LC form of communication. I was very happy with that (, but perhaps a little confused). I somewhat tried to get my life back, but I noticed she still played quite the role inside of me.

I can understand why you would want to re-establish you contact with her; you didn't seem to understand why she cut you off in the first place.  

Last week she seemed quite happy again: telling about her life etc. etc... All felt good. But then, all of a sudden, I received a text which seemed to imply a date.
It felt off, so I replied in a very evasive way, without saying anything about this date.

My guess is that even though you see this relationship as primarily that of a friendship.  I don't think she sees it that way.  I'm guessing that while you guys are re-establishing your connection, she was probably deeply involved with her boyfriend.  And that closeness (with her boyfriend) is doing what it does to pwBPD; it dysregulates them into fearing that they will be abandoned/betrayed/denigrated.  And the best way (for pwBPD) to avoid this imagined abandonment is to be the first one to exit, even if it is only a short exit.  So those times that she is re-connecting with you, is in a way her way to leaving her boyfriend first before he could leave her (even though this is all in her head).

And once her dysregulating feelings subside, she can go back to her boyfriend and be in low or no contact with you.

Until, one day she felt dysregulated enough to try to set up a date with you.

Then I got blocked all of a sudden. I was almost sure this could NOT be her, but I was absolutely devastated. Everything seemed fine before this... .

But you hesitated.  And she interpreted that hesitation as possible rejection/abandonment which is why she blocked you (again).  Abandon first to avoid abandonment.

I asked her 'What is all this?'. She shied away, but one of the guys began saying the MOST HORRIBLE things to me. Calling names, calling me things I would not like to say on these boards... .I asked her to say something, but she mumbled things like 'please, don't argue'. And sometimes she just laughed from the stress. Nothing more.

This behavior reminds me of what happened with my BPD loved one.  For a long time, she (my exBPDgf) would speak badly about someone we knew in common.  She encouraged me to speak badly of him.  They did have a past history together.  I think her speaking badly of him served her partly as a vent of her dysregulating emotions.  And partly to make me completely unaware that she was considering him as a replacement for me.

You see, when she was re-connecting with you, she was doing this as a means to distance from her boyfriend.  Maybe she even complained to you about him.  Maybe she kept you in the dark about him.  But when she was no longer reconnecting with you, it sounds like she was devaluing you (remember: alternating idealization and devaluation).  And it sounds like she was devaluing you to her other friends.  Why else would this person say the most horrible things to you?

In the meantime, the drunken dude kept calling me names, and all around her pressured her to say that she did NOT want any contact. A friend of her, whom I absolutely do not know (which seems to work there as well) pressured her as well by saying I could be dangerous. BUT SHE $#%@$!^ DID NOT SAY IT? SHE DID NOT LET HER PRESSURE INTO SAYING THIS?

She didn't say any of it to your face.  But she probably did say some very defaming things about you.  Most likely a lot of it was projection.  It was all devaluation.

Her boyfriend got somewhat confused and I told him that we had a bond, I am most certainly NOT his competition, but I thought this whole thing was extremely... .well... .choose your own wordings which imply the brutality, awfulness, injustice etc. etc.

It was wrong.  And you have to ask yourself, who instigated this wrong?  These people who are complete strangers to you?  Or your disordered "female friend" who tried to set up a date with you but then suddenly blocked you?

She was completely 'weird' and it felt like she was desperately trying to avoid all the shame or something. But we talked. I told them a lot, but not everything. Just to 'protect her' in a way. Her boyfriend changed his opinion. She kept saying how she NEVER said anything wrong about me, but he said that she should acknowledge that she kinda did.
She refused and he backed down.

She was "completely 'weird'" because she was desperately trying not to say anything that would contradict either what she told you or what she told her friends.  And doubtlessly this limited what she could say or admit to having said.  

Interestingly, your instinct was to "protect" her.  And I wonder if her boyfriend's confusion would lead to doubt.

I could NOT sleep that night. I was thankful (that boyfriend was my salvation in a way), but all those accusations haunted me.

And they should haunt you.  You just got a glimpse of what happens when she is not directly interacting with you.  And this glimpse is a completely different picture from how you might have once imagined her to be.

Yesterday I finally told her that this was devastating, but that I appreciated the actions of her boyfriend. I asked her whether or not she told her friend/employee as well that all what was said was complete nonsense. That employee/friend left early that evening, so she couldn't have been informed after our conversation. I told her that was quite important to me, because I would like to know if I could enter that bar again... .

SHE DID NOT REPLY! I tried again, but SHE JUST DID NOT?

I don't understand... .I guess she just expected me to be completely happy with her messed up excuse and be done with it. Why can't she just answer that question? Is she now mad again? Is this all shame based? Will this mean she will try and twist this all again to be able to just blame me?

She didn't reply because at that moment, she didn't need anything from you.  If anything, she's probably spent a great deal of her time and energy trying to undo the damage (i.e. confusion) that your encounter with her friends caused.  

I don't expect you will hear from her until she does want something from you again.  But if she thinks you've already learned too much about her ways, she might just cut you off altogether.  

I feel stuck guys. Getting called all these horrible things in public. Then getting an excuse text, but directly ignoring my reply... .(the question I mentioned).

What is this?

Is this indeed shame? But then... .couldn't she just say at least something?
Doesn't she care at all? But then... .why even send the excuse text?

This was betrayal.  She betrayed you by ruining your reputation among people who are practically strangers to you.  I suppose if you betray first then you cannot be betrayed (first). She is ignoring your reply because right now you are a liability to her.  If you do care to engage with her again, you could ... .wait... .until enough time has passed.  But then you would probably only go through the same cycle again.

I can see that you would want to understand WHY she is doing this.

But beyond that, why do you think you are particularly attached to this "female friend"?

Best wishes,

Schwing

[EdR]

Thank you Schwing. I really appreciate your post.

You are right. It not only feels like betrayal, it is betrayal. And that hurts.

Your question is spot on: why do I feel so attached to her? I am asking myself that question as well. Because as 'easy' it is to distance myself from her now... .I just do not know whether or not I will be strong enough to do so in the long run.

It is probably due to several reasons, which I mentioned in several earlier posts. But I guess the main reason is quite simple: I deeply care for her.
Is it love? I don't think so, at least certainly not in a romantic sense. Could it have developed into that from my side? Well... .I guess it might have... .to be completely honest. I don't think I could exclude the possibility... .Though that is not saying a lot... .That's probably a possibility for every emotional connection between a man and woman.

[EdR]

And she blocked me again. Out of the blue.
I didn't message or text her the past few days. But all of a sudden she just blocked me this evening.

Enough is enough. I am devastated.

[EdR]

Could someone please try and explain this latest action?
Especially in light of unblocking me and sending an excuse text?

Pleaaaaase... .

[Cromwell]

Its simple to explain, as Swing already said it is a case that at this moment in time, having a conversation is a liability for her and that could be for several reasons. Ultimately, she doesnt currently need you to fulfill her emotional needs, that is far to say that you are blocked forever.

You say you have feelings for her, yet she is with someone else, any texts you send can be used as leverage for her, you saw yourself you barely had to even speak to her and she used one text to give the impression you were chasing her and look at the result of it.

My ex was an expert at hit and run tactics, she would say something dramatic then be unavailable for a follow up response. From my own experience, my ex was someone who could dish out trouble but was completely unable to risk taking any back. I get the same theme from your posts when she was forced to be confronted in the bar. If she could have pressed a "block" button on you there and get out that situation she would have, its the equivalent of what she is doing now. Stirring up trouble then not being able to confront the end result, its what I said about triangulation, she will set her "boyfriend" against you.

when you get cautioned or arrested in my country, your rights are read to you as "you have the right to remain silent, anything you do say can be taken down and used as evidence against you"

This is your case at the moment, shes fishing for a response, when you are unblocked are you going to reply in a way that she expects "why did you block me?" "whats going on", she will use that to make out she is being harassed and chased by you and it is good evidence to clear her name and justify she was right with the rumours she spread, she will be absolved of the shame that she was caught out lying about you, in order words, she will be validated in herself.

Youve shown her up to herself and others, rightly so, but dont expect to be in her good books for it, quite the opposite.

[EdR]

Its simple to explain, as Swing already said it is a case that at this moment in time, having a conversation is a liability for her and that could be for several reasons. Ultimately, she doesnt currently need you to fulfill her emotional needs, that is far to say that you are blocked forever.

You say you have feelings for her, yet she is with someone else, any texts you send can be used as leverage for her, you saw yourself you barely had to even speak to her and she used one text to give the impression you were chasing her and look at the result of it.

My ex was an expert at hit and run tactics, she would say something dramatic then be unavailable for a follow up response. From my own experience, my ex was someone who could dish out trouble but was completely unable to risk taking any back. I get the same theme from your posts when she was forced to be confronted in the bar. If she could have pressed a "block" button on you there and get out that situation she would have, its the equivalent of what she is doing now. Stirring up trouble then not being able to confront the end result, its what I said about triangulation, she will set her "boyfriend" against you.

when you get cautioned or arrested in my country, your rights are read to you as "you have the right to remain silent, anything you do say can be taken down and used as evidence against you"

This is your case at the moment, shes fishing for a response, when you are unblocked are you going to reply in a way that she expects "why did you block me?" "whats going on", she will use that to make out she is being harassed and chased by you and it is good evidence to clear her name and justify she was right with the rumours she spread, she will be absolved of the shame that she was caught out lying about you, in order words, she will be validated in herself.

Youve shown her up to herself and others, rightly so, but dont expect to be in her good books for it, quite the opposite.

Thank you so much. I think that is the truth. She doesn't seem able to genuinely deal with these kind of feelings and situations.

I mailed her that I noticed her blocking me. I told her I didn't understand it, but I probably never will. I I said I wasn't angry, but I was disappointed. I asked her not to greet me anymore or anything.

Did I do wrong? (not from her perspective... .then everything would be wrong I guess)

[Cromwell]

She could easily reply to what you said - acting innocently - "oh, sorry, I was very busy at work" or "I was unwell and put my phone off for everyone not just you".

In other words, you have made an emotionally based reply to what she can then retaliate with a catalogue of excuses or lies to counter-act, not just towards you but also anyone who will listen to her version of the events taking place. The ones in spectator mode, but dont get to see the full picture which she has part control of.

Dont feel bad about making this mistake, what seems the right thing to do in a normal relationship is exactly the wrong thing to do with a person with BPD.

Youve told her not to greet your or anything, this is a declaration of closure that could go to your benefit as long as your behaviour long term matches up to it. What will it look like if you waver from it if she feeds you a response similar to the ones I suggested she might. If you leave for good, thats her triangle with one side knocked out, its lost its power completely. Thats her loss and something she wants to maintain, so watch for how she replies now.

If she says "fine", then dont believe she means that, its likely a test to see if you were serious. if you start texting her afterwards, the ball is even more in her court.

I strongly advise you to just wait now, in the meantime think more about what you want long term out of this, what is your goal you are trying to achieve. Many people will type "x has just happened" what do I do about it? yet there is no indication of what they want to achieve. Therein can reside  a problem in itself that needs dealt with.

[EdR]

I didn't have an explicit long term goal, but I did want to be sort of friends. Probably one could say the long term ideal goal would then be to have my friendship with her back.
But I would have settled with just hearing how she was doing from time to time.

Now, all my trust is completely gone. So at this moment I never want anything from her ever.

Did I close the door completely? Probably not. But her normal approach of 'say something nice and everything is kinda fine again' will not work anymore.

[Cromwell]

I didn't have an explicit long term goal, but I did want to be sort of friends. Probably one could say the long term ideal goal would then be to have my friendship with her back.
But I would have settled with just hearing how she was doing from time to time.

Now, all my trust is completely gone. So at this moment I never want anything from her ever.

Did I close the door completely? Probably not. But her normal approach of 'say something nice and everything is kinda fine again' will not work anymore.

In that case it might be an opportune moment to find some closure whilst she is in a relationship elsewhere. This might not stop her out of the blue contacting you again probably "when" far more likely than "if" the r/s she has starts to deteriorate or lose its novelty/e too much for her. You might even get an apology all of a sudden, but this will be out of desperation. If she realises she gets nowhere with you, then that should hopefully be enough for her to finally move out your life and try elsewhere.

The reason I never managed to do the same, from what ive learned up until now, is because I was very hurt and believed her apologies were heartfelt. Just realise that youve had a bit of a warning shot so far, smear-campaigns are not unusual and they can have wide impact on your life, its not something to get complacent about, people have lost a lot because of it. My ex did similar but more in the vein of trying to get sympathy and attention from new friends than to cause damage, then she would alternate back to thinking I was the best thing in the world again, and told me she was "praying for me", not very helpful sort of regret to have after the damage is done and she certainly wasnt going to go so far as to tell people that she was lying in order to improve things for me.

So I know a bit what your going through, you really dont know what she might be saying behind your back now so the best thing to do is avoid feeding her anything that can be used as ammunition. If you keep this in mind, she will still try now and again I believe to keep you on the hook, but if she realises you are aware of what she is doing, I hope she will just slowly fade away. Like I said, consider sticking to your guns now, it might be a good moment to make a clean break from this and not be too forgiving. Times my ex did things, I noticed she would let a few days slip by and then act as if nothing had happened, never talk of the issue again, as if waiting for the heat of the moment to subside.

[EdR]

Same here Cromwell. I also believed all her 'good actions' were heartfelt and an indication of who she truly was.
When she began her devaluation more than a year ago after 2,5 years of friendship, I TRULY believed she was heavily influenced by what I always called her 'mean girl/evil' friends. She referred to them in our talk a few days ago as well. She described how they still thought I was [insert something weird here]. But she had never said that. Well... that's what she said of course...

Even after all this, I still believe there is truth to this though. As someone with BPD/BPD traits her sense of self is problematic, so she really is extremely influenced by those friends.
Heck... .I would not exclude the possibility that she met those 'mean girl' friends again and told them her version of what happened in the bar. Then her friends would probably have called her crazy that she unblocked me and that she even send an excuse text.
She would have followed their advice to block me again, because their words would match her feelings of turmoil and I was blocked again.

I think this scenario is extremely probable. But still... .she is not a kid. She has a mind of her own and is accountable for her own actions. BPD or not.

I still feel for her, but I cannot ignore this anymore. This has gone way too far... .

But in the meantime I must be honest as well. I hope I will keep feeling this way. Because somewhere deep down I am a little afraid that eventually I will still feel very much attached... .

[Harley Quinn]

If and when that day comes EdR, come here and re read your posts to remember how you were impacted.  Hopefully you will have done some significant healing enough to have a different perspective on things if she tries to re engage after this episode.  You always have the option to ensure you receive that time and space by preventing her from contacting you.  It's good to acknowledge that as a choice you can make to protect yourself. 

Reading your thread you have not been treated well at all and without sounding dismissive of her as a friend to you, I'd be tempted to measure what her friendship truly provides you.  Compare what you've had with this woman with other friendships and consider the differences in how you're valued, remembering to focus on the actions, not the words. 

Embrace the silence and use it to begin working the process.  You deserve better   

Love and light x

[Wicker Man]

... .remembering to focus on the actions, not the words. 

@Harley Quinn  Thank you for the clarity.  I have not been able to stop thinking about why your words struck such a chord this morning.  I have been running them through my head since I saw this post --this is so simple, so obvious and yet it hit me like a hammer. 

This was why my heart and  my mind were at odds over my year with her.  Much of the discontent and cognitive dissonance was the result of hearing one thing and then observing something completely different. It hadn't dawned on me until I read your eloquent statement.

I have always believed 'Honesty is better observed than explained -if a man tells you he is honest... .RUN!' -yet in the maelstrom of our relationship I could not heed my own advice.


Wicker Man

[EdR]

Thank you Harley Quinn. I will try to remember that.You are absolutely right: her words might still be okay, but her actions speak for themselves.

[Harley Quinn]

What do you want to do now? 

Love and light x

[EdR]

What do you want to do now? 

Love and light x

I honestly don't know.
Well, perhaps I do know a little, but I already had trouble to achieve that before this incident and I think it will only become even harder now... .
I first of all wish to become stronger and not be scared to eventually go to that bar again.
And I just want to feel happy again. Try and meet other people and establish new friendships. But although a lot of people say that would be easy, I feel it is quite hard... .

[Harley Quinn]

I hear you. Where does the difficulty lie for you in connecting with others?  Kids do it so effortlessly but as adults with histories that aren't all fun it's difficult to sense who is worthy of trust and investment of our time and effort. That may sound harsh but it's natural to be a bit cautious. I find that following my own interests allows me to cross paths with like minds or at least others who have something in common with me. Taking a class has been helpful for meeting people whilst learning or developing a skill/knowledge.

Now is a good time to think about what you value in a friendship and focus on that.

Love and light x

[EdR]

I hear you. Where does the difficulty lie for you in connecting with others?  Kids do it so effortlessly but as adults with histories that aren't all fun it's difficult to sense who is worthy of trust and investment of our time and effort. That may sound harsh but it's natural to be a bit cautious. I find that following my own interests allows me to cross paths with like minds or at least others who have something in common with me. Taking a class has been helpful for meeting people whilst learning or developing a skill/knowledge.

Now is a good time to think about what you value in a friendship and focus on that.

Love and light x

Yeah, you described it quite well yourself. Like others said in different threads: after high school and university there just isn't this yearly group of 20-30 new people to naturally mix with. I never gave it too much thought back then: you are just drawn more to some people than to others. It was all natural. Maybe 2 out of those were great matches character wise and perhaps 5-10 could be considere as 'fun to be with'.
Now it just takes way more thought and energy. And like you said: you cannot expect to have a 'click' with just anyone. But after some experiences I probably am also afraid to get disappointed. The natural process of 'not having a click' with just anyone would now just feel awfully painful.

And I find it hard to think about this one: where to start? I absolutely like/love a certain sport. The problem was that she did it as well and it is quite a small sport here in my country. So there was this one other club I wanted to join. I had a lot of fun, but as I was talking to some members and the coaches, I learned that she sometimes trained there as well although I specifically had chosen that club, because it was a different one than hers.
I didn't think it was a good idea to join that club anymore as I somewhat feared what could happen if she saw me and would dysregulate at the spot. A lot of people thought I was overreacting and should just think about my own happiness.
But given this recent escalation, I think I did the right thing though... .

I must find something else and of course there is probably a lot. But I just don't seem to have the clarity/openmindedness to actually think of something AND follow through... .It's like I need a little push... .well... .more like a very big push.

[EdR]

Sorry for the double post, but I feel I need to post this:

I now sense I begin to feel a new emotion: I would like to get across how brutal this all was and that this final blocking of me is totally absurd (and mean!) expecially given all what happened before that. Including the excuse text.

I am NOT sending anything now. I know it is a bad idea. So I am just posting it here instead.  But I don't like this shift inside of me.

[Cromwell]

Sorry for the double post, but I feel I need to post this:

I now sense I begin to feel a new emotion: I would like to get across how brutal this all was and that this final blocking of me is totally absurd (and mean!) expecially given all what happened before that. Including the excuse text.

I am NOT sending anything now. I know it is a bad idea. So I am just posting it here instead.  But I don't like this shift inside of me.

Hi Edr. im in a way pleased to hear you are feeling angry, its not as a negative emotion than it might seem. Good for you controlled enough to post here where it is safe. I realise she has blocked you so there maybe wasnt an alternative but always feel safe and free to post here, ive done so and it helped enormously.

glad because ive found its more important to experience this anger and release it, then to store it away where it festers long term.

i still get moments of anger, but they are far rarer and float away almost as fast as they arrive. A lot of it I can relate to "anger at the absurdity" a good choice of word.

You do realise that I went through what your going through now, yet the next day I would be unblocked and everything on the surface was back to "absurd" normality?

until the next antics.

Id like you to bear this in mind if she unblocks you after youve released your anger and feel momentarily better, those were the times I was vulnerable and went back for more thinking id got over whatever behaviour prior that caused me to feel that way.

[EdR]

Thanks again Cromwell. I REALLY appreciate and value your help a lot! And I like what you are saying.

But can I ask you something? You are talking about 'releasing the anger'. What did you mean by that? Directing it towards her?

The weird thing is: I have never really done that. I always remained quite collected. But even at the slightest hint of confronting her or telling her I couldn't understand or accept certain behaviour, she would dysregulate even more. More painting black, more gossip, more twisted facts etc.

[Zen606]

Hi Crmwell,
Thank you!  all the behaviors you mentioned are why I went NC with my bp trait ex- its as if you were observing us.  I have been so tempted to send him a birthday card -- and break the 7 month NC -- but NO this would be a foolish thing to do and your comments remind me again of all of the red flags and why its over. Thank you so much! 

Zen605

[EdR]

Remember that I said a few days ago that I asked her not to greet me anymore or anything. That this has gone too far.


Well, today I've learned that there might be consequences. Still too early to tell (I will know more tomorrow), but it sounds like she is trying to damage me one more time... .

I am scared now... .will probably post more tomorrow. But I am somewhat scared to go into too much detail and make it possible to identify me... .

[Zen606]

Hi EdR,
Not sure what consequences means but I am concerned for you. First responsibility you have to you is to keep yourself safe. Sometimes in these situation, when dealing with a volatile person, the best thing to do is to say nothing and walk away.  Nevertheless, if you are scared, is there somewhere where you can go that will provide safety? Are there crisis centers in your area that could help with this? Relatives or friends that you could stay with?  Please let us know if you are OK. 

Zen606

[EdR]

Thank you Zen606. I can't/don't want to go in detail, but she more or less sent a family member after me. Not to physically hurt me, but to damage my reputation.
It didn't succeed. At least not yet. The truth was stronger this time around.

However, today I learned something which might be way more dangerous: I was told that she was really dysregulating/upset/hurt after what happened in that bar.
I knew that to a certain extent, because she did unblock me and texted an apology. But all the unexplainable stuff she did afterwards, was probably just her dysregulating heavily.

I know I am the one that got hurt. But still... .I feel very sorry for her. And that's what could make it more dangerous in the long run: I don't think a lot of people know her to behave this way. And that makes me really worried for her.

[Zen606]

Hi EdR,
So what plans have you made to keep yourself safe? You don't have to discuss them here if you don't want to, but please have some plans in place, just in case.
Zen606

[EdR]

Hi EdR,
So what plans have you made to keep yourself safe? You don't have to discuss them here if you don't want to, but please have some plans in place, just in case.
Zen606

Well, what I think is safe to say is this:
I am not telling a lot of other people about the specifics of my new job anymore (so she hopefully won't know where I will be working in the very near future) and on top of that I am in full avoidance mode. I feel a little like a hermit right now.

And I will try to remain strong and will try to not let myself be guided by feeling sorry for her (which I do know). Some part of me wants to clear my name by contacting that family member. But that's probably the dumbest thing I could do, so I am basically just desperately trying to get this all off my mind in a way... .

Regarding potentially messy situations (this is already more than I can handle as far as I am concerned): I am with family now.

[Harley Quinn]

I'm glad to hear you are with trusted company EdR.  I get the impression that there may be a further smear campaign in the offing and as you've said, attempting to clear your name in that case ought not to be something you concern yourself with ideally.  The truth has a way of showing itself and anyone who knows you well will tend to know what sounds realistic or otherwise.  Being your genuine self should be enough to cast doubt on anything off the wall that might be claimed, and countering any false claims that become a legal matter with evidence to the contrary may be necessary, so could be worth consideration.  

Protect yourself emotionally as well by focusing on other things in any way that you can and not entering into discussions that go down a negative track or are in any way connected to her behaviour.  :)o what you can to give yourself some breathing space.  As Zen606 has said, I hope you are keeping yourself physically safe too.  

Regards your anonymity here, with the volume of members and posts - many discussing similar situations, the likelihood of discovery is extremely slim.  If you have any concerns about your account being compromised, please contact a member of the staff team who can support you to resolve this.

Let us know how you're doing.

Love and light x

[Zen606]

Hi Wickerman,
Well said, "I have always believed 'Honesty is better observed than explained -if a man tells you he is honest... .RUN!' -yet in the maelstrom of our relationship I could not heed my own advice.

My bp trait ex was always telling me he was a "one woman man" little did I know that this would be the undoing of the relationship. He had been scouting around for other women all along while he was with me, and one day it "slipped" out of his mouth. I confronted him and watched him dig a hole for himself. The more he tried to explain his way out of it, the deeper he made the hole.  I could never trust him again after that, yet I still am so in love with him. Lesson learned, I guess. 

Zen606

[EdR]

Thanks Harley, thanks Zen.

I cannot say I am doing better. I am posting right now, because I felt and feel the urge to discuss this. My feeling said to contact her or at least her family member and talk about the absurdity of this situation.

Luckily my brain says 'HELL NO! YOU ARE SO NOT DOING THAT'.

But still... .I hate this. How on earth can I get painted black here? I am the one who got this weird text and got blocked. I am the one who got insulted/called names in a bar. She then didn't (even under pressure) want to say to cut off contact, she and her boyfriend even wanted to meet up again. She unblocked me. She sent me an excuse text.

The only thing I could have done wrong in her eyes, is that I did not directly praise her because of her excuse. I had to reflect on it.

So in what world can I suddenly become the total bad guy here? And she is probably suddenly absolved of all sins so to speak... .?


I am still so hurt because of all this... .and like I said in one of my previous posts: the fact that I learned once again that she is dysregulating for such a prolonged period of time over this makes me sad for her... .
Her friends will never see that. They will think it must have been me and she will fabricate a story accordingly. But she is in a way hurt as well and I think that is really hard... .

I wish I didn't know this... .than the urge of contacting someone would be non-existent at this point. But this kind of info makes it complicated. I just don't think I could or should do something. I would just be destroying myself... .

[Harley Quinn]

My guess is that most everyone here can relate to wanting to help our ex partner/friend, certainly within the r/s and many of us afterwards.  We have one of the 10 beliefs that can keep us stuck around that and it was certainly one of the main beliefs that I struggled with.

You have a good heart.  Being kind, caring and compassionate is a wonderful quality, as long as we also know when to turn that towards ourselves and put our own well being front and centre.  EdR, have you seen this video about helping a pwBPD?  Your post made me think of it and I wonder if it might speak to you right now.  The first time I saw this I really wished I'd seen it sooner.  It's only short, and I think it makes a very good point.

How to help a difficult person - Jordan Peterson

Let me know what you think.

Love and light x

[EdR]

My guess is that most everyone here can relate to wanting to help our ex partner/friend, certainly within the r/s and many of us afterwards.  We have one of the 10 beliefs that can keep us stuck around that and it was certainly one of the main beliefs that I struggled with.

You have a good heart.  Being kind, caring and compassionate is a wonderful quality, as long as we also know when to turn that towards ourselves and put our own well being front and centre.  EdR, have you seen this video about helping a pwBPD?  Your post made me think of it and I wonder if it might speak to you right now.  The first time I saw this I really wished I'd seen it sooner.  It's only short, and I think it makes a very good point.

How to help a difficult person - Jordan Peterson

Let me know what you think.

Love and light x

Thank you Harley! I think that video contains a lot of wisdom. I've tried to help her, I was there for her, but eventually I should not risk drowning trying to 'save' her.

[Harley Quinn]

That's right EdR.  We can never really save anyone but ourselves. 

Love and light x

[Zen606]

Hi Everyone,
After having the experience of being married to and divorcing a functional alcoholic husband, I learned the hard way that I could not change anyone after trying for 17 years. A few yeas after we divorced, we reconnected becoming friends,  and discussed the issues that led to the divorce, and then died within a year, age 49. One of the most intelligent men I have met, died from drinking.

So, many years later when the red flags began to go up with my bp trait ex and we broke up the second time over what I considered trivial matters, I did not argue with him because I knew then what I was dealing with. He tried hard to get me back, it worked, but I also knew that this would be the last re-cycle for me. 4 months later we broke up again -- in my opinion pure self-sabotage on his part. He tried to get me back again but this time I did not return, I was not playing that game anymore. Throughout this whole time I did not argue or discuss anything with him because I did not feel responsible for pointing out his behavior to him. I initiated NC within a few weeks after the break up, blocked him in emails and changed my phone number. Stopped frequenting places he goes to.  Why should I try to fix him? He is an adult and knows what he is doing, if he is not aware, then he is not.  Do I sound uncaring? I am not an uncaring person, I just learned the hard way. I save my energy for other battles I do need to wage.
Zen606

[Cromwell]

In almost a zen like capacity, was the same recycle I went through for the last round, it coincidentally lasted the equivalent time about 4 months, yet it was very much a case that I had became so accustomed to the r/s and this time was innately predicting how to play without even thinking. I judged correctly and left her at the first sign of the same old antics resurfacing, having enjoyed the honeymoon period one last time.

I liked your closing line, its worth emphasing for me, i had plenty going on in my life prior to meeting her to deal with, what an inordinate amount of time and energy expended during the r/s to firefight constantly. I was hoping I had met someone who would alleviate the other stresses of life, not just contribute them but replace them as the new central focus. It is strange how since she has been put out my life just how more trivial I look at the issues I had previously in comparison to putting up with, well, insanity basically... .

[EdR]

Yeah, now it's just making sure I translate this theory into practice: I have to truly let go.

[Zen606]

Hi Cromwell and EdR,
It's enlightening to recognize the energy one has put into a relationship that because of the mental illness was not going to evolve to benefit both.

Yesterday I was thinking that perhaps what I miss about my bp trait ex was the attention and affection I received from him -- sans the tantrums -- and not necessarily the person itself. Not sure if this is very accurate because is not the behavior part of the person? Nevertheless, even after the ending of the relationship, I find it so painful to be away from him and here again, I am exerting energy that I could be using elsewhere. However, it is good to know that the energy is in the form of thoughts and not the "real thing". And thoughts drift away. 

To truly let go takes time and I have realized that it will happen as one works on oneself, its almost like the domino theory. Based on momentum one domino eliminates the next one. So we need to stay working on ourselves, work with the therapist, surround ourselves with positives, and get the support we need from this forum.
Zen606

[EdR]

Sorry guys... .here I am again... .

Read some posts here the last couple of days, which kinda let me start and excuse her behaviour somewhat... .
Group/peer pressure (family/friends), BPD... .you name it... .

So as I am writing this, I would somewhere deep down like to send her an e-mail. An e-mail asking why she's doing what she's doing? Why she unblocked me, send me an apology, but then eventually blocked me again from out of nowhere and sent a family member after me... .

I am not doing it. I don't think it would bring anything positive to the table and I just have to try and let go. But it sure helps to post it here. Thank you.

[Zen606]

Hi EdR,
Yes, it does help to post here because of the support. Last week I had such strong urges to be with the ex- but made myself strong and the support from this forum made a big difference.

You know EdR, you sound like you are a caring person and do care about your ex- but as you yourself say, what positivity can your emailing her bring? You care about her, but in this situation you need to think about you, take care of yourself, let her take care of herself. This is not being selfish, this is being responsible to you. Have you read  "The Road Less Travelled" by F. Scott Peck?  He says that our mental health is our responsibility and no one elses. This is so difficult to do because it is easier to take care of others than ourselves. Take this time to work on you. In the long run you will be glad you did. 
Zen606

[Harley Quinn]

I want to echo what Zen606 says above:

our mental health is our responsibility and no one elses. This is so difficult to do because it is easier to take care of others than ourselves. Take this time to work on you. In the long run you will be glad you did.

As the majority of us would fit the description of caretaker / codependent types, turning our attention to ourselves can be extremely hard.  I know it was my toughest challenge when it came to being active in my detaching and healing.  Trust me when I say that one small step towards this will make a big difference.  What can you start or reinstate right away that you can enjoy, grow from and will benefit your sense of well being?

Love and light x

[Zen606]

Hi Harley Quinn,
Yes, learning what co-dependency was and acknowledging my contribution toward this in the marriage with my non-BPD late husband was a big step. I took this step about a year after we separated, when I began to put my life together.

Great question. Even if it's a small step, that's how we learn to walk. And when we are coming out of a relationship with a BPD person, we do have to start learning to walk again by ourselves.
Zen606

[EdR]

Yeah, I am taking baby steps right now... .But sometimes fate seems to interfere: today I decided to go to a certain part of my city that I know really well. I wanted to see my old house and do some shopping in an area I haven't been for years.

But I returned home early. This neighbourhood is as far as you possibly could be from her home (in my city that is... .) . I never expected to see her there. Not in a million years.
It sounds totally unbelievable, but I just saw her there... .She didn't see me though and for a moment I thought 'let's confront her with her behaviour (not in a harsh way)', but I didn't. I just went home... .
I hate this. She doesn't look like an evil person. She just looked pretty good, but seemed quite shy. Just continiously running through her hair. I cannot understand how this same person basically 'betrayed' me as you guys put it... .

[Cromwell]

Edr, basing a danger on how cute something looks, got me into a whole lot of problems. As for me saying the quote "betrayal" and attributing it to her behaviour: yes, she propogated rumours about you in your community that caused you to be confronted, a "horrible encounter" (your words based on rumours that you say have no basis of fact to them and for what she was dumbfounded and embarrassed by.

Do you think because a few week have past, the sun still appears rising in the east, sets in the west and youve seen her combing her hair looking oblivious to what she created in the not so distant past; changes any of the facts of what happened?

how many times do you read in papers after they have caught someone that the community thought "she/he was the last person they would have expected" and are completely taken aback. Its what your last line seems to emulate. I think your probably still having to rationalise a lot of conflicting shock of it all. Your instinct told you not to confront her, I think that your very strong that you listen to it, I know how hard it is because I didnt, even though I should have known better. If she has given the impression to others that you are pestering her, what better way to validate it by telling them that you "stalked" her in the middle of nowhere, as you say, she was far away from expected. She could easily portray that you might be following her, which would validate what she had said about you previously.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi EdR,

Cromwell makes a good point about your potential lucky escape.  I've just been reading a really interesting thread on another board where Enabler describes his wife's need for 'weird love'.  Without quoting directly, he basically talks about how his wife elicits sympathy from others in order to receive this 'weird love' and it made me think of your situation.  I suspect that most of us can relate to this as well. 

You can now see how your friend has a tendency to create/fabricate situations whereby she can lean on others for support because so and so did or said this/that/the other.  Knowing what you do now, even if she were to reach out to you and want to reconnect, could you in all honesty put yourself in the line of fire and risk becoming the target again?  If not yourself, could you condone this behaviour towards others? 

I won't ask if there was something or someone plaguing her when you first met.  Instead I'll ask what or whom it was?  You'll likely find your pattern.

Love and light x

[EdR]

Hi Cromwell and Harley!

You are both absolutely right! That's what my instinct said as well: talking to her would probably have been 'okayish'. She would hide behind her friends, family and would have said that she absolutely did nothing to hurt my feelings.

Directly afterwards she would probably tell her friends and family how weird it was she suddenly saw me there and she would fabricate a story in which I am indeed the awful and dangerous stalker (or let others fabricate it)... .

Maybe I am too scared... .maybe I should not fear these rumours. But like Harley said: am I willing to put myself in the line of fire again?



I am very interested in that thread you mentioned Harley. Could you post the link?
I think that certainly plays a role in her messed up behaviour. Uncertainty, triangulation, validation etc. etc. and just a basic inability to cope with these kind of feelings all mix and create this wonderful character... .:-(

[Harley Quinn]

Sure EdR,

It's from the Conflicted board in a thread by Formflier.  Here's a link to the post that I mentioned.  Enabler also explains further about his wife's means of extracting 'weird love' further down the thread and it really resonated with me.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325956.msg12974791#msg12974791

Love and light x

[EdR]

Guys... .sorry... .but I need you to talk some sense into me.

I really feel a strong urge to send her an e-mail. Just to point out the absurdity of the past events. Deep down I feel a strong desire to talk about it and point out her weird behaviour. Why on earth all this ambiguity? I would really like to know what her thought process is in all of this. I just feel 'accept that she most likely suffers from BPD' is too simple... .

I have never send or told her anything malicious and I am not planning to do so now. But at times like this, I just feel I cannot let this go... .

For the record, I am not sending her anything, because anything would probably be used against me. It would probably be like: "you see, he just will not leave me alone". But is sometimes quite hard to resist the urge. Just like right now.

Am I being too scared? Not scared enough?

Could there be a way to make her reflect on her own behaviour?

[Cromwell]

Ive had plenty of these moments during the r/s, I wrote them all down on paper and burned them after.

I made the right choice, you are trying to reason with a person who cant beyond their emotions at the time.

Catch her on a good day, she might be receptive, assuming not one mis placed word could spark her off.

what is the best you are trying to achieve? getting her to look into her actions is going to provoke her feeling a sense of shame at best - and this wont be in the good way of allowing her to change, it will cause her anger at being forced to confront it, and then she will use a defence mechanism to over-ride it long term anyway.

I know all about these impulses Edr, is it so critical that I couldnt ask you to delay it by 24hours? When these impulses come they reflect our state of mind at the moment, tomorrow you might still in some way have the same questions but minus that "itch" to act upon them.

the best thing I did was to resist these impulses, all I can say is that in the long run, the drama quickly fizzled out. Your contacting her can have the barbara streisand effect of making it appear that you are still concerned about what she has spread lies about you and you havent let it go. It just draws and amplies attention back over old ground.

ive never used the excuse that having BPD means that my ex didnt know what she was doing, quite the opposite. this isnt so much about getting someone to "see the light" over their actions, she already knows, it is actions that are done impulsively.

rest assured she knows what she has done to you. she may or may not have enough empathy to know had badly it has made you feel, but enough to know your not happy about it.

I held back in outpouring my grief to get some sort of sympathy from my ex was a good call, intuition based, I never knew a thing about BPD at the time. The best that would happen is she would have laughed about it, not because she is inherently evil, but because having to confront it would be having to entertain shame instead. most people dont like to confront shame in any case, for someone who is easily emotionally dysregulated, all the more not to provoke it. I cant overall see anything productive gained from trying, in converse, a lot to potentially lose by it resurfacing some new drama that you have tried to avoid.

the fact your posting here, you are listening to your intuition and something doesnt feel right about it. Id go with that, it has been the only thing that served me well. Dont get me wrong, I "fantasised" about actually having a proper open discussion with her, the best I got was under the influence of drugs and as I started she - ran - out the house. because the one time it happened before, she punched every wall and held a deep grudge that she only absolved me from by acknowledging I was on drugs at the time. It was enough to teach me a lesson from the start, that the "truth" is not always the best policy in the sense of a person that cant emotionally handle it maturely enough to work with it.

In the meantime, id suggest tell yourself youll decide to do this tomorrow, write down what you want to say and destroy it after. In life we come across people that just cant be reasoned with and trying to force it is counter productive. no-one can say for certain how it might go, but based on the big picture of what has happened so far, I think its unwise to open pandora's box.

theres a chance it could work out well, but based on the past and what youve mentioned, not good probability. If I was to turn around and say "go for it", id hate to carry any assigned blame for it making things worse. Im not only cautious for that reason, but I would and have done exactly the same in my own situation. Theres nothing more that I would have liked then to get my ex to see things from my perspective, chances are, she already knows, but getting her to confront it is the key problem. Instead it was "ground hog day" every day for her, with everything that happened before left to me to carry as an emotional burden.

I dont see it as being "scared" I see it as having an element of hope to turn things around from how they ended now that it feels like the dust has appeared to have settled from the last confrontation.

[EdR]

Thank you Cromwell. I needed that 

I think all previous experiences have indeed shown that although she might seem receptive, eventually she will always turn in it around in her head and somehow blame me.
Probably this is indeed the shame which she then feels and cannot handle.

I do really hope you are right though. That somewhere deep down she knows she did the wrong thing and has hurt me.
Her behaviour seems to indicate the opposite of that though... .So I don't know how this works: would she still know 'the truth' or has her own fabrication replaced that truth and does she onlu believe 'her own twisted truth' now ?

[Harley Quinn]

There can be an element of that sometimes.  Certainly I think that my exBPDbf sometimes got so involved in his lies that he convinced himself.  However, based on the behaviour from her that you described when this was all brought to a head, she appeared to know that she'd been caught in the lie.  Either way, what would it mean to you?  If she acknowledges she did wrong or tells herself she was right, how does that affect your life?  

Ultimately EdR, we can't know everyone's mind.  Nor can we allow what is in said mind affect our own state.  Especially in the case of someone who has a personality disorder which causes them to frequently alter their opinions.  Keeping up with that is an impossible task.  History can be re written at any time.  Trying to get on the same page as that person and understand their reality isn't the way to go.  What matters most is your reality.  How does that look for you right now?  What are you feeling?

Love and light x

[EdR]

Hi Harley!

I am quite the good guy. I care a lot about people and on a friendship/relationship level I am very cautious and a stand up guy. Whatever people try to take away from me, they cannot take away who I really am inside.

But that's more or less what I am feeling right now. She is somehow trying to destroy who I am at the core.
She is not living far away. She is living in the same city. 3 km from my house. I sense her painting black of me is changing the people around me. The people I work with. Of course they will not believe everything she says, but I notice how especially girls I know seem to be way more cautious around me.

And I just can't ask "does this have anything to do with... .". That would be a bad idea probably.

Both the absurdity of her behaviour AND the perceived consequences around me hurt me. They hurt me a lot.

[Harley Quinn]

Do you know for sure that she is saying bad things about you to these people?  Is it possible that your own discomfort is causing you to be extra vigilant to others' reactions to you?

I feel for you, I really do.  I'm a 'good guy' too, or 'gal' I suppose, and it really does sting when people have the wrong impression of who we are.  I can honestly say that it has taken all my will to not fight to defend my honour during the last 12 months at times when there has been misleading information and lies published about me as part of my family law case and it has been very hard indeed.  I was angry, insulted and hurt.  The only thing I can say, which I'm afraid won't make that feeling go away but hopefully can help you to ride it out, is that those who truly know and care about you will not doubt you.  Everyone else is not an important player in your life. 

We will be judged by strangers on a daily basis, based on what sex we are, what we wear, our age, a million things.  My view is, as long as they keep their opinions to themselves I don't have to be concerned about it.  In other words, don't try to get ahead of something that may or may not be happening.  Rise above it and just be yourself.  If someone asks you a direct question, give them a direct answer.  But you don't need to defend yourself if you've done nothing wrong.  The truth will show itself in time.  One way or another, anyone who is paying attention to the (possible?) smear campaign will come to realise that they took the word of someone who's facts are unreliable.  Honour yourself by not lowering yourself to the level of idle gossip.  As long as she's not affecting your livelihood or legal standing, then the news of today is tomorrow's chip paper.  Sorry, British saying... .

Love and light x

[EdR]

Thank you so much Harley. Like you said, although I really know I should just continue to live my life it still hurts and like you I am struggling not to defend my honour.

With respect to the smear campaign: well, I know for a fact it was/is happening. I just do not know the specifics. But I think she has done it (again) in such a way in which she feels completely justified and not to blame.

What she basically did in the past (according to mutual friends and what her boyfriend told me outside that bar) is this:
She tells them some stuff about how I would have send her a message. Some truths, some half truths and some complete lies. She never ever tells them about her replies and messages or behaviour towards me. She does that in such a way that she hints at me stalking or possibly even harassing her (do not know that last one for sure though), without actually saying those things explicitly. But she clearly creates an image of herself as some kind of victim. Probably to get this 'weird love' you were talking about earlier.

Some friends in her outer circle doubted her and asked her to talk with me more than a year ago. She pushed them away. They were with her or against her. Her boyfriend doubted her as well during this last 'situation'.
But she always has these 2 'evil friends' (sorry... .but they are truly something straight out of a high school drama movie). She almost seem to 'rely' on them to cover her ass and blow every story out of proportion. Because she only tells certain things and leaves out everything which may hurt her position and mixes it with half-truths an lies, a completely new story gets fabricated.
These 2 friends have brothers and sisters who are friends with people I know and work with. I know new rumours started there just recently. So I don't think it is too far fetched to assume she started a smear campaign again together with these two friends... .
But like I said... .I don't know the specifics. Just that something was/is happening... .

[flourdust]

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