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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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kells76
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2022, 10:20:49 AM »

I'm worried about tonight. Based on how she acted yesterday and this morning before I went to work, I think this will be a bad night. Kids will be there, and they will be expecting us to watch a kid's movie and have snacks, like we usually do on Fridays. Last time which was two weeks ago was horrible. Trying to have a feel-good family event doesn't go well together with a dysregulated pwbpd.

What do you think will happen, specifically?

How can we help you and the kids to be safe?
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« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2022, 10:56:05 AM »

I don't know if there's a solution to this specific night. Maybe I'll just try to not loose my temper and not start to argue/debate or get on the witness-stand, so I at least stay emotionally sober.

Have been at home now for 2 hours, it escalated to verbal abuse (with a lot of hate) before she retreated to the other side of the apartment.

What makes this different than other nights of the week is that we're gambling with the kids feel-good time. It makes me feel even more powerless.

Long term, only solution is to stop trying to be a family. This is an impossible environment.
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kells76
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« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2022, 11:15:12 AM »

That's a good, simple focus to have for getting through tonight: focus on not "getting on the witness stand" and not "adding fuel to the fire".

You can practice in your head some noncommittal responses, like formflier has suggested:

"Wow babe... that's a lot to think about."

"That's really new to me... I'm going to think about that"

"I'm really speechless... I'm going to take time with that one"

"I see that's important to you... let me give it the thought it deserves"

And then stick to that -- no "ceding ground"-- and/or pivot to:

"I'm getting the kids some juice, want some?"

"Oops, I should put that laundry in the dryer before we start the movie again"

"How about I make toast for everyone for a snack?"

"I have to use the bathroom, I'll be out in a bit"

...

It can be pretty rote. Mostly this is just to help you have some different options to make it through the night.

...

If you did end up having to be in a separate location from your wife tonight to keep things safer, what are a few places you could take the kids too? Parents, siblings, friends? You don't have to decide now "yes I will do that", it's more -- think now, when things are a little calmer, of options you could have later if needed.

...

It is really hard when you would like the kids to have a good time with the family all together, but it feels like that won't happen.
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« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2022, 01:26:18 PM »

Having an experienced and proactive lawyer is so very important.  Strategies and brainstorming are essential, in addition to our practical insight and accumulated collective wisdom.  This and so much more is covered in William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (revised in 2021).  Though you are in another country, this is an essential guide to help you and others avoid some common mistakes and pitfalls in our intractable divorces.
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« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2022, 08:25:13 PM »



"That's really new to me... I'm going to think about that"
 


This is a good one.  It can be easily varied so it doesn't get stale.

"Oh wow...I see the perspective now.  Hey babe...let me focus on this some and get back to you."

"Goodness babe...I hadn't considered that.  "

Etc etc

Best,

FF
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« Reply #95 on: November 22, 2022, 04:55:46 AM »


"That's obviously important, I need to give it some thought.."

Then stop engaging...just stop.


If I don't intend to get back to the subject later, is it a bad idea to say that I will think about it? She expects me to come to a conclusion and return to the issue.

Example of a text conversation:
She: "You have to be prepared on how to handle things when entering a situation where you know there is a risk I will get jealous [talking about the parents night situation]! You need to assure me of your love for me in that situation!"
She: [a few more examples of my failures]
Me: "A lot to think about for sure. See you tonight, take care  With affection (click to insert in post)"

What she wants me to say when I get home:
"Babe, I'm really sorry, I agree that I should always be prepared to assure you of my love when your feelings overwhelm you. I haven't made it easy for you."
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« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2022, 09:39:08 AM »

If I don't intend to get back to the subject later, is it a bad idea to say that I will think about it? She expects me to come to a conclusion and return to the issue.

Nothing wrong with saying you’re thinking about it. You are doing that right now. You didn’t promise to come to a conclusion about it. So don’t bring it up. If she does, say, “I don’t know.” Or you can say, it’s confusing, you don’t understand, it doesn’t make sense to you (risky), etc.



Example of a text conversation:
She: "You have to be prepared on how to handle things when entering a situation where you know there is a risk I will get jealous [talking about the parents night situation]! You need to assure me of your love for me in that situation!"
She: [a few more examples of my failures]
Me: "A lot to think about for sure. See you tonight, take care  With affection (click to insert in post)"
That’s a fine response. Kick the can down the road. Repeat as needed.

What she wants me to say when I get home:
"Babe, I'm really sorry, I agree that I should always be prepared to assure you of my love when your feelings overwhelm you. I haven't made it easy for you."

No no no no. Absolutely not. We say “Don’t validate the invalid.” You are not responsible for her feelings. She has to learn to manage them herself. You are doing no favor to her by trying to take responsibility for her feeling badly when you’ve done nothing wrong.

I suspect you’ve been taking responsibility for her feelings for years now. It only gets worse as time goes on. Stopping this will be hard for both of you, but enabling hasn’t worked so far, and it’s making things worse. Be prepared for more drama and outbursts, but hold firm and quit trying to take care of her reactions. She’s an adult and needs to manage that herself. And if she can’t over time, you will know that this is an extremely toxic environment for your children to grow up in and that will lead you to making a choice. Who do you want to protect? Your dysfunctional wife? Or your children? You can’t do both.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2022, 09:08:08 PM »

You need to assure me of your love for me in that situation!"
 

Yes...you do need to assure her.

However, I suspect that "assuring" her actually means...let me control your choices.  (which is a no)

Listen...it might be entertaining to grab ahold of "befuddled"...and stay there.

"Wait...what...er...babe?  I mean it sounds like you are making someone else responsible for your feelings...can that possibly be right?"

Big picture:  Don't buy into distorted thinking.

Best,

FF

« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 07:52:27 AM by I Am Redeemed » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: December 29, 2022, 08:11:47 AM »

This thing with the special ed teacher/my teenage love affair is not slowing down. She's mostly trying to vent her feeling about what a terrible person this teacher is (she really knows nothing about her at all and they have never spoken to each other apart from that one time when my wife "confronted"/stalked her). And she is often angry at me for not effectively taking her side. She can go on about the special ed teachers poor taste in clothing. I mostly just nod and smile if I feel I have to.

I'm thinking this could as easily be something else... W has strong feelings about what kind of feeling people radiate. Male and Female equally, but with women there is also jealousy, so it gets more complicated.

Kind of just wanted to update and admit that I'm really struggling with this.

She has talked about possibly mentioning her concern about our son being harmed by the teacher to the other grown-ups working at pre school... She has a variation of disordered thoughts about this and it's hard to know what position I should take.


Of topic - she wants me to "wholeheartedly give myself to her", and if I don't, things will never get better. It feels as if this is just a new way of making me doubt myself, to make me feel that if I would only have done better, everything would be ok. I refused to tell her this when she was angry, and yesterday when we were about to fall sleep she was being kind and wanted me to say it (That I'm giving myself fully to her). She told me that if I do, she will accept me. I told her that I can't do it. She was disappointed and I slept really bad afterwards from anxiety, but I didn't give in to her kind approach which is a milestone! The reason I can't say it is that I know from experience that it will only be used against me later. Plus it really is hard to say sweet things that you don't really mean.
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« Reply #99 on: December 29, 2022, 09:02:39 AM »

This thing with the special ed teacher/my teenage love affair is not slowing down. She's mostly trying to vent her feeling about what a terrible person this teacher is (she really knows nothing about her at all and they have never spoken to each other apart from that one time when my wife "confronted"/stalked her).

 W has strong feelings about what kind of feeling people radiate.

She has talked about possibly mentioning her concern about our son being harmed by the teacher to the other grown-ups working at pre school...
Of topic - she wants me to "wholeheartedly give myself to her", and if I don't, things will never get better.

I think I have to be as blunt as possible. This sounds delusional. It has no basis in reality. It's all in her head. I am not a professional so I will use lay terms. This is crazy.

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« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2022, 10:51:16 AM »

TWENTY years ago... My then-spouse complained bitterly about her coworkers.  Lowlifes making out in the parking lot, she even filed a complaint against the manager for mimicking her accent and HR (company based in our city) came out and had a big sit down.  She was so proud - according to her - she was vindicated and he got a ding on his record.  This was a manager she had previously liked, well, until she didn't.  About 3-4 years later we were separated and divorcing.

YESTERDAY... My ex was complaining endlessly how despite getting a promotion, nearly all in her store have it in for her, cursing, yelling, whatever.

Unless a person gets into meaningful therapy and applies it diligently, that refrain of complaints and demands - whether directed at you or others - will never end, no matter how much you appease, perhaps especially if you appease.
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« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2022, 10:58:38 AM »

I agree with Not Wendy -- your wife is delusional. She apparently spends a great deal of time "in her head," creating story lines that allow her to justify her beliefs and behaviors. These stories and beliefs have no basis in reality and lead to bad behaviors.
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In yours and my discharge."
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« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2022, 11:04:36 AM »

This is a disaster just waiting to happen, like that slow motion train wreck we discuss here.  We see it looming, virtually powerless but to watch it unfold.  She will not let this go.  But even if she did, which she won't, other issues would get triggered.  Anything and everything.  You need to be proactive.

We resist telling you what to do.  We provide information, education, strategies and peer support.  But with things already this bad and her determined to steam full speed ahead, it is becoming clear this is not a "manageable" situation.  Most of us, when it was this bad, had no choice but to exit the adult relationship and struggle as smartly as possible to maintain our parenting.

TWENTY years ago... My then-spouse complained bitterly about her coworkers.  Lowlifes making out in the parking lot, she even filed a complaint against the manager for mimicking her accent and HR (company based in our city) came out and had a big sit down.  She was so proud - according to her - she was vindicated and he got a ding on his record.  This was a manager she had previously liked, well, until she didn't.  Then it progressed (regressed?) to include my friends, my relatives, and finally me.  After about 3-4 years of my life getting worse and more worse, we were separated and divorcing.

YESTERDAY... My ex was complaining endlessly how despite getting a promotion, nearly all in her store (a different company of course, she burns bridges) have it in for her, cursing, yelling, whatever.  Same old, same old.

Unless a person gets into meaningful therapy and applies it diligently, that refrain of complaints and demands - whether directed at you or others - will never end, no matter how much you appease, perhaps especially if you appease because that is often enabling.
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« Reply #103 on: December 29, 2022, 11:34:05 AM »

Hey 15years, thanks for the update. Good to hear from you again. Hope the boys had some fun times during the holidays (if you celebrate  Being cool (click to insert in post) ).

Glad you notice some success with not giving in to a different tactic your W tries. That is an important way to show yourself a new way of doing things -- you can look back at that moment and say, Yes, I can do something different that is healthier, and I will survive.

She has talked about possibly mentioning her concern about our son being harmed by the teacher to the other grown-ups working at pre school... She has a variation of disordered thoughts about this and it's hard to know what position I should take.

15years, this concerns me a lot. I join with Notwendy, GaGrl, and ForeverDad to be on your side, together with you, being really, really concerned for you and the boys.

I think I remember you mentioning that you are in touch with a counselor/therapist/DV center worker? Am I remembering that correctly?

15years, can you get in touch with that person, and tell them what you shared with us above -- that your W thinks the teacher might harm your son? And then let us know when you do that?

The reason I'm concerned about what your W says it that it says less about what the teacher may do, and more about where your W is at. Healthy moms don't come up with narratives about their kids being harmed.

Do you think you can do that?
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« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2023, 11:17:27 PM »

Hey 15years, how have things been the last few days? How are the kids doing? No pressure, just wondering how you guys have been. Hope the New Years weekend was good (if you celebrate!)
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« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2023, 06:27:53 AM »

Hi, I read your replies a couple of days ago, it helped in not letting the feeling of isolation take over.

"She apparently spends a great deal of time "in her head," creating story lines that allow her to justify her beliefs and behaviors." - GaGirl, this is a good short version of the situation, this is something I have to remind myself about when I almost start believing her story lines myself.

"Most of us, when it was this bad, had no choice but to exit the adult relationship and struggle as smartly as possible to maintain our parenting." - ForeverDad, I've been thinking about this since reading your relpy.  I'm feeling more and more that I've run out of energy (is decrepit a good word?), which is making parenting harder. And also thinking about the emotionally demanding situations that the kids have to live through.


kells, thanks for asking, yes I celbrate the holidays Being cool (click to insert in post) The kids have been thrilled and S6 has really enjoyed being at home.

The thought that the teacher would harm our kid was probably just a "What if" - statement on her part. I don't think she really believes it. I'm not too concerned about her mentioning this to the other teachers and she would probably just come off as unstable, and she knows that too. If her belief were strong enough, she wouldn't care if she came off as crazy.

The last days she has mostly been going on about the last part on my previous post, the idea that I have to "Give myself fully to her" in order to unite us. It's hard to not start feeling guilty for not having been perfect. Makes me feel obligated to try more.
She has also further developed her theories about my ex's. She now believes that my very first girlfriend is an obsession of mine, maybe some sort of shame obsession on my part that I can't let go of... that I am somehow still so very ashamed of this ancient relationship that it makes me illoyal to my W in present time. So, like GaGirl said, she "...spends a great deal of time "in her head," creating story lines that allow her to justify her beliefs and behaviors."

Thanks also to Notwendy for your comment.

W has also been ruminating a lot about me not being able to accept that ALL women are angry at their men. She seeks out news articles to verify her ideas.
I think that if I could try out a healthy relationship, I would realize that women indeed are angry at their partners from time to time, but that it doesn't feel as impossible to handle as this.
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« Reply #106 on: January 04, 2023, 06:45:57 AM »

15 years, many of your posts are about your wife's ideas and somehow you seem to be considering them, wondering if you need to merge with her, try harder.

It concerns me that you seem to be buying into her ideas.

Being around my BPD mother, she's also frequently sharing her thoughts and ideas. She sounds very convincing. But she's mentally ill and her ideas are distorted.

An aspect of boundaries is knowing what is true about yourself and what isn't true. Someone can say something to us and we filter it though this boundary. If I told you you had green feathers and webbed feet, and must be a duck, would you consider that maybe you are a duck? Does my saying this make it true. Can I turn you into a duck by saying or thinking it?

I hope your boundary is that you are certain you are not a duck. You would not consider it. You need to take this "filter" and apply it to the things your wife says about you.

Many of us here have stated that your wife's ideas are all coming from her own thoughts and feelings and are not connected to reality. It is absolutely not true that all women are angry at their men. At least not all of the time! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

This "giving yourself to her" idea is warped. It means having no boundaries at all, becoming one person with her and since you can't exist as a separate person, this means you need to BE her. It means not being a man at all because of her hostility towards men. But even if you voided everything about you, it would not fix her feelings. It will not stop her relentless hostility towards you.

We have said it before- these are the musings of a mentally ill person. But what about you? If you know better, why are you buying into it?

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« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2023, 04:28:58 AM »

You're right, I'm buying into her ideas on some level. I notice that as time goes by, I see things more clearly, but the slowness of the process is exhausting.

My wife's concern is often about love and sex. How about being an individual when it comes to sexuality. I find it hard to feel that it's ok to have my own sexuality without feeling like I'm letting her down somehow. If one important aspect of sexuality is that we are free to think and feel whatever we think and feel, what's left is how we behave. But when she tells me what is ok or not to think and feel, it gets really hard. A lot of her dysregulations right now is about her interpretations of things I say and do or doesn't say or do, or things I have said or done or haven't said or done in the past.

If what she believes is true, is actually true, I find myself in a tricky spot. I can't admit that she's right because it would spark an extreme reaction. In a healthy relationship, do people accept that their partner might be attracted to certain kind of people or have a sexual preference that they don't agree with? Maybe it's not meant to be discussed, simply respected on both ends?
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« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2023, 06:17:10 AM »

In a healthy relationship, do people accept that their partner might be attracted to certain kind of people or have a sexual preference that they don't agree with? Maybe it's not meant to be discussed, simply respected on both ends?

I know from being married that thinking someone is attractive doesn't stop just because you are married, but doing something about it does.

As to seeing attractive actors/actresses on TV- they are chosen because they are attractive. So what? I can tell when my H notices someone on TV, he can tell when I do. Now, we aren't lusting over the TV set or anything like that. Sometimes I will laugh if it's obvious- and sometimes the producers have the actresses dress in ways nobody would dress for work and you just know they are doing that to gain viewers on TV, or the actor just has to take off his shirt a few times. Then, we forget it and focus on the story line in the show.

The past is the past. We don't constantly bring up old boyfriends or girlfriends and yes, we have run into them at times- school reunions or other events. It's not a big deal.
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« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2023, 08:06:55 AM »

There is also "wisdom" needed when choosing how "accurately" you will communicate your exact feelings and attractions.

Especially when you know that it is likely to be triggering for some reason.

One theme I have noticed over the years is that "honesty" gets conflated with "accuracy" and with "kindness".

Let's say that you know for sure that your partner is self conscious about they were her belly looks.  And also that she knows that you like (are attracted to) a flat..hard tummy.  So...when one shows up on TV...or in person and your partner goes "what do you think of that?"

Well...saying "Wow..that tummy is way more attractive than yours..."   I think most people know to stay away from that.

But would you say "Nice tummy..." or "hard body" or anything along those lines? (hint...nooo)

Or would you say in a playful way..

"Want me to think about that or maybe I give you a squeeze?" and then be obvious about keeping your attention "on her" and not staring at or answering questions about whatever is on the tv/magazine/computer screen."

Said another way..."just don't go there" when they want to discuss the physical attributes of others or heaven forbid "compare" them to your pwBPD.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #110 on: May 10, 2023, 03:52:27 AM »

Update on this matter.

She speaks almost daily about my ex's (not just the special ed teacher) and she's justifying it to herself more and more as time goes by. She knows that almost everyone would find her perspective outrageous, but she shakes of that feeling with the thought that people are stupid and naive. So she sees herself as the smart one who has found the truth of humanity, which is - No one really accepts that their partner has ever had any romantic involvement with another person - but not many will admit it even to themselves.

So that's the foundation of any discussion of the matter - My take out from that is that there's simply no point in me saying anything to her about it, even if it's a direct question. Because she has the answers and anyone who says otherwise is lying.

The latest about the teacher is that she would like ME to put my foot down and somehow communicate to the teacher that I want her to leave my family alone (as you might remember, this is what my wife told her when she approached her last fall). Of course I won't do any such thing, I'm just sharing this with you. However, what I am actually doing is avoiding contact with the teacher. I have seen her one time this year and it would have been appropriate to say "hi", but I didn't... Because it feels so safe not having to lie when W asks me if I've seen her, and if I greeted her.

I'm not naive, I know that my wife is totally out of her mind but the amount of attention she gives this makes me feel uneasy about it. If she wants me to say or do something, she will go on about it at least until I've made compromises. I can refuse a few hours or days of coercion (depending on the intensity) but at some point I get so tired that I give her something that will make her stop. So I might agree to something like "not greeting her" as a compromise.

Well, pre school is soon over and done with and S6 will move on to the next stage which is at a different school, so we won't be involved with my ex at least until S3 starts pre school when he is 6 yo.

At this point I find it suitable to insert a quote from another topic, because I think it has to be taken into account every time I'm discussing my wife's thoughts and feelings.

You are thinking about this logically and it doesn't make sense, because (from my own experience this is how it seems)- the actual reason is emotional and the given reason isn't the actual reason(maybe out of fear that the emotional reason won't work) . So when you address the reason given, it doesn't really work because it's not the actual reason for the request.


Thanks for this quote Notwendy, I've found it helpful many times.
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« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2023, 05:03:21 AM »

This situation is her current focus - it's her own feelings being projected on to the current reason. It's good for the teacher that the preschool is ending- because that makes it possible for the "reason" to not be her at some point, but since the "reason" is a projection of your wife's feelings, and a way for her to cope with them, this isn't a solution for her.

The issue is for you, as you are living with her and listening to her thoughts and feelings. How will you maintain your own grip on reality?

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« Reply #112 on: May 10, 2023, 05:24:17 AM »


The issue is for you, as you are living with her and listening to her thoughts and feelings. How will you maintain your own grip on reality?


I guess by removing myself from the discussion, but that's easier said than done when she doesn't "drop it" when I ignore the discussions (quite the opposite). Might be that removing myself from the rs is the only realistic long term option.

A more short term option is to have a mindset that if I feel myself questioning my reality, I can't make any decisions before I've had the chance to get some distance to the "alternative" reality.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2023, 06:55:35 AM »

I guess by removing myself from the discussion, but that's easier said than done when she doesn't "drop it" when I ignore the discussions (quite the opposite). Might be that removing myself from the rs is the only realistic long term option.

A more short term option is to have a mindset that if I feel myself questioning my reality, I can't make any decisions before I've had the chance to get some distance to the "alternative" reality.


I think your story resonates with me because I observed this with my parents. There's "reality" according to my BPD mother and then, there's reality. It's confusing because sometimes they appear to be the same. I think that is why "borderline" is named that way- not psychotic- which is removed from reality, but BPD is not always in accordance with reality.

It's difficult to hold on to your own judgment because it becomes a conflict when you do. My BPD mother shares her thoughts and feelings and tries to enlist us to agree with her- I think it's a way for her to feel reassured and if she's worried about something she does this.

If my BPD mother wants something, she can be very persistent. It is hard to say "no" to her.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #114 on: May 10, 2023, 07:49:08 AM »

I think the new name that still isn't widely used fits this disorder better - Emotionally unstable personality disorder (EUPD).

@15Y I think you do need some distance. I began seeing my own self only after living apart for several months (like 6-7). What NotWendy said, their truth and The truth is sometimes in-sync, but most of the time it isn't and is detrimental to our own. Especially evident if your empathy is strong or you cared too much.

My ex texted me walls when she felt bad just 2 weeks ago. She wrote one at 1am and then another one at 4am. It was full of spite, malice, sadness, anger and feeling sorry for herself. I felt sorry for her too. But none of that hit me.

Next day I called her and told her I'm fine if I'm not her type anymore. And that it's ok to vent, to write in her notebook or elsewhere *everything* that hurts her. But to remember when she talks or writes to another human being - it affects that person. Should be mindful of that at least. She remained silent. I think she did get my point, but anyhow, I no longer care that much. Just year ago I'd be a complete mess. Two years ago I'd beg her to forgive me no matter what.
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« Reply #115 on: May 12, 2023, 07:57:16 AM »

Next day I called her and told her I'm fine if I'm not her type anymore. And that it's ok to vent, to write in her notebook or elsewhere *everything* that hurts her. But to remember when she talks or writes to another human being - it affects that person. Should be mindful of that at least. She remained silent. I think she did get my point, but anyhow, I no longer care that much. Just year ago I'd be a complete mess. Two years ago I'd beg her to forgive me no matter what.

This is my development too. But I have moments when I feel very fragile and have an intense feeling that there isn't any safe space to return to really, except my own mind.  I mean, compared to before, when the hope of a safe place was for her to not be angry/sad and to see her smile at me. My anxiety gone in an instant, and back in an instant I guess. Now it's more even and not as easily affected.
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