The forging of The Path

[capecodling]

So why do I fear giving up on her? Why do I shrink away every time I go to block her? Even though she has me blocked on everything. She has shown me time and time and time and time again how worthless I am to her, so why do I fear it being Dead Forever, even though I legit want to forget I ever met her?

Well pretty much this has nothing to do with her and is a wound you received in childhood from your mother which is lodged somewhere in your subconscious and stored in your body, so your relationship with the BPD matches that pattern completely and is now causing you to obsess over her and want her back --- it seems like its all about your ex but its actually all about your wound.  If you can start healing the underlying wounding, the trauma bond you have with your ex will also start to dissolve.   That's why its so hard to block her even though you know she's bad for you, because somewhere inside you she represents that love that you couldn't get from your mom.   I know it all sounds quite Freudian but amazingly accurate for most of us who have formed trauma bonds.

[OKrunch]

Well pretty much this has nothing to do with her and is a wound you received in childhood from your mother which is lodged somewhere in your subconscious and stored in your body, so your relationship with the BPD matches that pattern completely and is now causing you to obsess over her and want her back --- it seems like its all about your ex but its actually all about your wound.  If you can start healing the underlying wounding, the trauma bond you have with your ex will also start to dissolve.   That's why its so hard to block her even though you know she's bad for you, because somewhere inside you she represents that love that you couldn't get from your mom.   I know it all sounds quite Freudian but amazingly accurate for most of us who have formed trauma bonds.

this is all good, but heres the thing.
My childhood was amazing, like Norman Rockwell levels of wholesome.
I grew up in an incredible neighborhood, with tons of friends, my parents are both still alive and married, quite happliy so.
They are the barometer by which i look at relationship succsess.
my mother worked for 25 years in a pediatric psyc facility, so she is very emotionaly intelligent and well educated.
I am looking into my childhood with my therapist, but I cannot for the life of me think of something in my childhood that would be the root of this.

However, I have been mistreated in almost every major romantic relationship in my life.
I definitley gravitate towards broken or spoiled women.

2004-2010 - First major relationship, I was unknowingly cheated on for almost 4 years (GF was in college, I was not)
2013-2017 - Ex wife, was cheated on (literal weeks after wedding) gaslit, dragged through court for 3 years.
2019-Curent - Ex Fiance - We all know the history there...

[SinisterComplex]

this is all good, but heres the thing.
My childhood was amazing, like Norman Rockwell levels of wholesome.
I grew up in an incredible neighborhood, with tons of friends, my parents are both still alive and married, quite happliy so.
They are the barometer by which i look at relationship succsess.
my mother worked for 25 years in a pediatric psyc facility, so she is very emotionaly intelligent and well educated.
I am looking into my childhood with my therapist, but I cannot for the life of me think of something in my childhood that would be the root of this.

However, I have been mistreated in almost every major romantic relationship in my life.
I definitley gravitate towards broken or spoiled women.

2004-2010 - First major relationship, I was unknowingly cheated on for almost 4 years (GF was in college, I was not)
2013-2017 - Ex wife, was cheated on (literal weeks after wedding) gaslit, dragged through court for 3 years.
2019-Curent - Ex Fiance - We all know the history there...

So real talk...do you consider yourself to be a nice guy? Are you concerned with how others view you? Are you used to making sure everyone else is happy and before you are happy, essentially being a people pleaser? Simple question to move the dialogue along here. By no means am I trying to pry, just looking for pieces of the puzzle to help you put things together.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

So real talk...do you consider yourself to be a nice guy? Are you concerned with how others view you? Are you used to making sure everyone else is happy and before you are happy, essentially being a people pleaser? Simple question to move the dialogue along here. By no means am I trying to pry, just looking for pieces of the puzzle to help you put things together.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I generally think that I am a nice person although I certainly am not a "nice guy" insofar is that I think that I'm owed anything or that I have this unfulfilled desire for some imagined version of love.
I have never, and probably will never give much of a crap about what people think of me.
I was the studded leather Mohawk kid in my high school, I specifically went out of my way when I was younger to make sure that people knew that I didn't care what people thought.
As an adult, the opinions of most other people are religious simply don't matter to me.
Be so far is being a people pleaser, it's not a general tendency that I have but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships.

[OKrunch]

 Truth and Epiphanies.

Truth - I obviously still want her attention, and validation from her attention. I am still wildly attracted to her, and need to be able to stand my ground when she is being engaging, and not ask how high when she says jump. I still CHERISH our happy memories, and I don't believe they are ALL love bombing. I believe there have been good stretches of time where she was legit as invested as I was, but for her that feeling is fleeting, and engulfment snuffs it out. I cannot say with confidence that I would be able to ignore communication and/or affection from her. I know this weakens my position, but I dont wana lie about my capabilites and limitations.

 Epiphanies - As much as I still care, and want her, I am so beyond done begging and making myself overly available. She needs to miss me, and I need to not care if she doesn't. I am making this harder on myself than it needs to be. She is not the end all be all of women, even if thats how I see her, I logically know that she isnt. I said my piece the other day, and I was not coy about what I said. She knows full well how much she has used and manipulated me. If she wants to play the "Flavor of the month" game to try and fill the hole in her spirit, shes welcome to try. She says shes staying single, which i believe, but I doubt she will be staying "Alone" So, I am back in full blown no contact. I said my piece, and I made my refusal to be used known. Now she can enjoy the TRUE absence of me in her life. Thank you again, and I apologize Ive been PLEASE READ at heeding all of your advice. I love who I love, and Im trying to figure out how to Not Love her anymore.

[SinisterComplex]

I generally think that I am a nice person although I certainly am not a "nice guy" insofar is that I think that I'm owed anything or that I have this unfulfilled desire for some imagined version of love.
I have never, and probably will never give much of a crap about what people think of me.
I was the studded leather Mohawk kid in my high school, I specifically went out of my way when I was younger to make sure that people knew that I didn't care what people thought.
As an adult, the opinions of most other people are religious simply don't matter to me.
Be so far is being a people pleaser, it's not a general tendency that I have but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships.

Ok so let's go into depth on that a bit more. Perhaps you may not be the typical nice guy, but yet in relationships you display "nice guy" tendencies. Why do you think that is? In essence, sure this relationship has been your focus, but perhaps we need to place more focus on the past and patterns that appear to be common threads.

Does anything stick out to you like a ya know perhaps in that past relationship it made me feel this way and so my behavior was like this and I responded like this and then you have that proverbial light bulb go off?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

Perhaps you may not be the typical nice guy, but yet in relationships you display "nice guy" tendencies.
-SC-

What examples of this would you say you've seen?

Does anything stick out to you like a ya know perhaps in that past relationship it made me feel this way and so my behavior was like this and I responded like this and then you have that proverbial light bulb go off?

Ive been cheated on in every major relationship i have.
Id say if i have any negative relationship pattern its complacency.
its easy to fall into rhythms when the relationship stabilizes, and the "magic" dies down a bit.

[SinisterComplex]

What examples of this would you say you've seen?
Ive been cheated on in every major relationship i have.
Id say if i have any negative relationship pattern its complacency.
its easy to fall into rhythms when the relationship stabilizes, and the "magic" dies down a bit.

"but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships"

What is the behavior in your terms?

Additionally, let me put it this way. When you hear Nice Guy how would you define the personality or the behaviors associated with it...in your own terms?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

"but it's definitely a behavior that I exhibit in relationships"

What is the behavior in your terms?
People pleasing, I will sacrifice my own contentment to make sure that my partner is contented. "Happy wife = Happy Life" kind of mindset. The classic Walking on Eggshells.

Additionally, let me put it this way. When you hear Nice Guy how would you define the personality or the behaviors associated with it...in your own terms?
To me it is a Buzz-Psyc internet term with bad vibes. It is often used to refer to a guy that is visibly desperate, and throws himself at any opportunity for physical and romantic attention. They are "forever in the friendzone" types.
The "Nice Guy" believes that taking a woman on a date and paying for dinner is a barter system with the expectation of getting laid, and when they don't, they get visibly upset and act like mysoginistic man-children.
Fledgling incels.
That is what I think of when I hear the term "Nice Guy"

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

After many days of quiet, the "gut feelings" are back. Which is odd when I am at peace, it make those intrusive feelings feel like a bothersome fly, or the looming wait before some task I'm dreading.
Getting these feelings while at peace also shows me they are not mine to own, and I wont.
other than this, I am at peace. Im fine with whatever does or doesn;t happen.

My job stabilized. I have my new place, and thats going well. I have intimate companionship, and a great circle of friends.

My current focus's are:
-Diet (im 6'2" 190lbs, but I eat mostly crap. I need to give my body REAL fuel. Ive been eating like the depressed bachelor I am for months, and my body hates me for it)

-Sleep (See above)

-Fitness (I've always sucked at doing fitness on the regular

-Quitting Smoking (again!)

-Get my car all squared away, perhaps a new one.

LIVE WELL.

[capecodling]

I am back in full blown no contact. I said my piece, and I made my refusal to be used known. Now she can enjoy the TRUE absence of me in her life.

This seems to be often / always what it comes down to.  With my ex BPD it got to the point that every interaction with her was painful, even when she was love bombing and trying to get me back, even that was unpleasant for me.  You reach a point, even if part of you still loves her and wishes she would heal, but you don’t want to see another message from her ever again.  This is where real healing can start..   Its weird, normal breakups for me are not like that.

[OKrunch]

This seems to be often / always what it comes down to.  With my ex BPD it got to the point that every interaction with her was painful, even when she was love bombing and trying to get me back, even that was unpleasant for me.  You reach a point, even if part of you still loves her and wishes she would heal, but you don’t want to see another message from her ever again.  This is where real healing can start..   Its weird, normal breakups for me are not like that.

Its all the fruitless recycles. We broke up for 9 months in 2020-2021, then I moved back in. Then she kicked me out again in Sept. Since then she has orbited in at least three times, and then ducks back out.
Its like, if you're done, be done. I don't understand the patterns and repetition.

[Pook075]

Hey buddy, sorry I've been away the past few weeks.  I was overseas and ended up proposing to the love of my life, so my BPD journey with my ex has ended.  I will definitely stick around here though for you and a few other friends.

What I read from your posts over the past few weeks is that you still have an all or nothing mentality.  You have to break that because it means you can only talk to her if you're in a committed relationship.  I do understand that, you still care way too much and jealousy, anger, and resentment prevent you from just being friends. 

But here's the thing- you're still in love with her and struggling to move on.  You're even in another relationship but keep getting dragged back to her.  That's not healthy buddy, to be half in and half out.  All that does is bring pain that you don't deserve, that you're not meant to carry.  You have to choose- either you're waiting this out or you're moving on.  You can't do both.

From what you've shared from her side over the past few months, she has grown immensely in her acceptance of BPD and the steps she needs to take to get her life in order.  That's awesome for her and I'm proud of her.  She is making real progress and she's also reaching out to you, discussing her growth and bringing you into her life.  She clearly still loves you and trusts you, even if she's not able to say it.

For your past two months, you've moved on and found some happiness, some balance, plus a few new relationships.  All good stuff.  But you're at a crossroads because you can't fully close that last chapter of your life and you can't accept just friendship from her.  However, the only way you end up back together is through friendship and mutual trust, building a relationship all over again from scratch.  Sure, maybe she has a bad day and you guys end up in bed...great for the moment, but it doesn't fix anything long term.  Only mutual trust and understanding can do that, and you're closed off from that.

Can you see what I'm saying here?  You can never get what you want with the path that you're on.  You HAVE TO BE all-in or all-out, not a little bit of both.

For my relationship with my ex, what helped me finally give up completely wasn't my love for her...I still love her immensely.  Instead, it was the realization that she'll never be able to love me the way I needed her, to be there for the ups and downs in life as a true partner and best friend.  Once I saw that in my fiancee, I realized that I was on a fool's errand hoping for the impossible...something that could never happen because my wife's BPD and unwillingness to get help.

Your situation is different in that your ex is aware and making strides towards recovery.  But can she love you unconditionally for you?  We don't know that since only time will tell.  That doesn't change the fact that you have to make a real decision- can you accept friendship and slowly rebuilding trust, or should you just move on completely? 

I know what the universe is telling you...deep down, you know that answer as well.  But which path will you choose?  Walking away is almost impossible.  Starting over as friends is almost impossible.  Both are super hard.  You have to pick one and only one path though, my friend, so your mind and body can fully heal.

I continue to be your biggest fan and again, I'm sorry I was away for a bit.

[OKrunch]

I think ive crossed a barrier. I don't get emotional when she is in touch, and I don't care if she isnt. She messaged me on Fathers day (I hadnt texted her in a while) and I was hanging out with my newish female friend, and barely paid it any mind.

Tuesday is Her Daughters therapy day, so right now the twisties are a thing, but they have been pretty mild of late. When last we spoke, she was nice, but was still in "Woe is me" mode. Complained of money, her car, the dogs etc. She said "the universe is punishing me for the abortion, and what I did to the kids" So ther than the strong ass twisties right this moment, I have been pretty free of the whole scenario. I have bigger more important things to worry about. Although the "Week of anniversaries" has begun. So that may shake things up a bit.

[tina7868]

I think ive crossed a barrier. I don't get emotional when she is in touch, and I don't care if she isnt. She messaged me on Fathers day (I hadnt texted her in a while) and I was hanging out with my newish female friend, and barely paid it any mind.

Glad to hear you feel less reactive when she contacts you. Your progress comes across in your posts. Keep doing what you're doing

Although the "Week of anniversaries" has begun. So that may shake things up a bit.

It might. You can stay grounded in your new sense of neutrality. The past is in the past. There is a lot to look forward to.

[Pook075]

I think ive crossed a barrier. I don't get emotional when she is in touch, and I don't care if she isnt. She messaged me on Fathers day (I hadnt texted her in a while) and I was hanging out with my newish female friend, and barely paid it any mind.

Tuesday is Her Daughters therapy day, so right now the twisties are a thing, but they have been pretty mild of late. When last we spoke, she was nice, but was still in "Woe is me" mode. Complained of money, her car, the dogs etc. She said "the universe is punishing me for the abortion, and what I did to the kids" So ther than the strong ass twisties right this moment, I have been pretty free of the whole scenario. I have bigger more important things to worry about. Although the "Week of anniversaries" has begun. So that may shake things up a bit.

Good for you brother.  It's a good sign when you make contact and it doesn't stir any serious emotions.  Just keep on keeping on.

[OKrunch]

Communication has been spuratic, but way more frequent.
Things have been pretty relaxed as far as conversation topics go.

I want to ask to catch up in person, but last time we saw each other it made her back off again. So I'm going to wait on that for now.
Which is hard, it goes against my instincts.
 I think I need to let her be the one to have that idea
 Like my therapist said, she's like a cat.

[capecodling]

For my relationship with my ex, what helped me finally give up completely wasn't my love for her...I still love her immensely.  Instead, it was the realization that she'll never be able to love me the way I needed her, to be there for the ups and downs in life as a true partner and best friend.  Once I saw that in my fiancee, I realized that I was on a fool's errand hoping for the impossible...something that could never happen because my wife's BPD and unwillingness to get help

This summarizes it perfectly for most of us.  The power of the trauma bond will continue often beyond this point,  but there comes a point where you can see (without doubts) exactly how bad and toxic the BPD is for you.  I think this is where the real healing can start, because you no longer dwell as much in fantasies of rescuing them and getting back together.  Not saying those thoughts don’t come up sometimes, but it is no longer the predominant thought.  It shifts more towards “how can I detach and heal from this toxic situation.”

[OKrunch]

Well, contact has been spuratic again throughout the last few days, and I have initiated mot of the conversation we've had.
I mentioned before that I can tell what the difference is between how she acts when shes interested and invested vs Whatever this has been.
Theres no enthusiasm in the conversation, a lot of one or two word replies, getting left on read for a day, etc.
It almost partly feels like shes only maintaining conversation out of pity or some form of breadcrumbing.
Im not here for that, so I am going to back off again.
This week was hard with all of the anniversaries and memories tied to it.
As ive said before, If she wants anything to do with me, A. I know what and looks and feels like when its genuine, and B. She would / will make it known if that changes.
So YET again (because I apprarently have the self control of a child) I will be backing off entirely.
If she notices or even cares about any absence of me in her life, she will do something about it.

Weve been split for 9 months now. This hs been too long coming.

[tina7868]

Well, contact has been spuratic again throughout the last few days, and I have initiated mot of the conversation we've had.
I mentioned before that I can tell what the difference is between how she acts when shes interested and invested vs Whatever this has been.
Theres no enthusiasm in the conversation, a lot of one or two word replies, getting left on read for a day, etc.
It almost partly feels like shes only maintaining conversation out of pity or some form of breadcrumbing.
Im not here for that, so I am going to back off again.
This week was hard with all of the anniversaries and memories tied to it.
As ive said before, If she wants anything to do with me, A. I know what and looks and feels like when its genuine, and B. She would / will make it known if that changes.
So YET again (because I apprarently have the self control of a child) I will be backing off entirely.
If she notices or even cares about any absence of me in her life, she will do something about it.

Weve been split for 9 months now. This hs been too long coming.

Hey OKrunch! I'm sorry contact has not been consistent lately. It can be confusing when someone acts hot and cold. You seem to have a good attitude about it, deciding to prioritize yourself and withdraw your energy. Don't beat yourself up about backing off again. I see it instead as a win that you are able to recognize when it is best for you to adapt and change your approach. Go with the flow, and put yourself first. Remember that this type of behaviour has nothing to do with you nor your value.

[OKrunch]

Well after some more hot/cold conversation i decided to just approach the topic and get it done with .

here Is what took place via text today.

Me: " you got any plans this coming weekend? Want to go out to dinner or out for a walk in the historical district?"

Her: " I'm not going to be available on Saturday, I have my daughter for an extra day that weekend. As much as I enjoy that we can be amicable, I don't really feel comfortable with hanging out, or talking everyday"

Me: " already, no sweat. *Smiley face emoji*.
 Sorry you don't feel comfortable, I'm not sure why, but it's how you feel, so no biggie. No need to explain. Amicable is nice, but if there's no interest in ever hanging out I don't much see the point. Have a nice summer, and hit me up when you want to drop my stuff off"

Her: " because I'm trying to move on and rebuild my life. I can't do that if I'm holding on to the past. I've told you a few times as well that I would have to keep it a secret and I do not feel comfortable with Secrets. Not move on romantically, but like literally get my life back together. This will hold me back I'm sorry. I have been in a rut and have not even started looking through your stuff in the shed I'm sorry. I'll get moving so you can get whatever may be in there."

Me: " I obviously want you to do everything you need to do to make sure that you are in a happy healthy place. I guess I'm not sure about what it means by saying having to keep it a secret. As in from your friends and family? Your daughter mostly I'd assume? I'm sorry that you feel as though I would need to be secret, as I have said before I think there is a difference between actively Keeping a Secret and just spending our own time doing what we want to do. We don't have to make anything public, but that's not keeping a secret. It's not like I expect you to unblock me or announce that we're hanging out, but I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I don't want you to do anything with which you're not comfortable with. I guess I'm just confused about whether or not you want to hang out just because you don't think it's a good idea, because it would be secret, or legitimately because you don't want to. Either way it's a bummer because I would like to see you, but I respect your decision and won't check in, but I encourage you to text me if you want to talk I miss my friend.

Her: " I know it will be bad for me so I would be too ashamed to tell anyone. I am having a hard time okay? Can you please respect when I say no? You're adding all these " do you actually want to?"  I don't want to dive in more okay? Please respect my No.

Me: " I 100% respect your no I'm sorry that you are having a hard time, I'm here for you if you need anything. Even if that's just to shoot the breeze about books and movies. I'm not trying to pressure you at all I'm just trying to make sure I completely understand your emotions and point of view"

[capecodling]

Man, just reading this exchange was a painful reminder of the endless cycle of self-doubt and guilt and pain that you will stay locked in as long as you are communicating in any way with a BPD.  In my experience, if you want to understand her behavior, here is the best lens i’ve found: she will do whatever maximizes your pain, weakens you, and gives her the most power and control.  If its telling you “i need a break” she’ll do that if its telling you “i love you and miss you” she’ll do that.  If you have moved on and started to heal, then she’ll reach out to “give you back some of your things” they will always find a way to reopen your wounds as long as you are communicating with them.  Frankly, if you are on these forums — or any normal person — you won’t have the grounding necessary to endure all the ways the borderline has to push your buttons.  NC and blocking my ex has been the only way for me to start healing, any interactions I can pretty much guarantee will push your buttons.

[tina7868]

How are you feeling about this latest exchange?

[OKrunch]

How are you feeling about this latest exchange?

We had another since. It turned into a big blowout. I have lived in fear of speaking my mind because Ive been afraid of pushing her away and alienating her. Im done being used, played with and lied to.
I told her the full extent of my feelings, my hurt and how I am done being an option.
She flipped out, brough up a bunch of unrelated crap from the past, and literally spoke over me on the phone to the point where i could not get a word in edgewise.
I told her she is a liar, selfish, and goes out of her way to hurt people.
I told her I hated her and never want to hear from her again.
She is an emotional tyrant, and a stunted child.
I deserve better. She is now fully blocked, and staying that way.
This book is over.

[Turkish]

Which one of you reached out?

[Pook075]

We had another since. It turned into a big blowout. I have lived in fear of speaking my mind because Ive been afraid of pushing her away and alienating her. Im done being used, played with and lied to.
I told her the full extent of my feelings, my hurt and how I am done being an option.
She flipped out, brough up a bunch of unrelated crap from the past, and literally spoke over me on the phone to the point where i could not get a word in edgewise.
I told her she is a liar, selfish, and goes out of her way to hurt people.
I told her I hated her and never want to hear from her again.
She is an emotional tyrant, and a stunted child.
I deserve better. She is now fully blocked, and staying that way.
This book is over.

Sorry that happened brother, but good for you.  You do deserve better and I am glad you're starting to see that more fully.