So my wife has diagnosed CPTSD.

I believe (especially since reading others stories on here) that she has BPD and maybe CPTSD.

Basically I experience all of the classic BPD behaviors and in our years together haven’t seen any behavior that would indicate CPTSD. I agree she had a at times crap childhood into her teenage and young adult years, but never any avoidance or triggering based on childhood memories.
Now I realize that these very often coexist and are based on some similar origin points but the one is a much milder issue of a mood disorder and the other is a disorder of personality and will take a lot more work to heal from and change behaviors.

So she’s been in an IOP for mood and anxiety disorders for 6 weeks now and although she reports ‘feeling better about myself’. I keep having the experience where she tells me: “I am treating you so much better, and I haven’t insulted you, put you down, or name called or accused you lately.”
I let her know that it is wonderful she is feeling better though her treatment, but that as good as that is for her, on my end I would feel seen a lot more if she were to ASK ME about my experience rather than telling me how much better she treats me.
This pretty much always gets an angry response and how I am am invalidating her, and how I am ‘refusing to let me get better’. Now, after this many years of her bending reality to her version of emotional thinking I at times find myself lately having trouble knowing if I am being reasonable. But I ran this idea by a few people including my therapist, that she needs to ask ME how she is treating me, not tell me how much better she is treating me. Which was a huge point of needed validation for me.

Earlier this week her and her therapist at the IOP had talked and asked me to come in for a joint session so the therapist could observe us interacting. Basically the therapist tried to slightly referee the moment but I was verbally attacked, insulted, called a liar over and over and treated in a way that honestly messed me up a bit for the remainder of my day. I think that the therapist let a lot of it happen just to get an idea of how things really are, vs. how my wife describes them.

But where I am stuck is that in 6 weeks shouldn’t there be some small improvements if it’s CPTSD? For BPD I would doubt based on what I am learning, that it might not make much difference yet. But if she’s suffering from CPTSD it is emminently treatable, in comparison to BPD (and I am guessing some narsissistic tendencies as evidenced by telling me how much better I am being treated).

Maybe I don’t have a well formed question yet and just need to vent.

And I keep getting these attacks where everything is a double standard, and every one of her issues is blamed on me, and I am accused of being the source of. Like the verbal abuse, I have spent our entire marriage saying things like: ‘no matter how you insult me I won’t insult you back’ but I get accused of being verbally abusive all the time.
Does this sound like CPTSD to anyone here? Maybe it’s both . . .

Hi Mom,

To start, I'd say that your daughter is showing some healthy signs:  she's able to get and keep a job, and she has a nice/kind/considerate side.  That's pretty amazing.

Yet I think she's clinging to victimhood status.  She's too ill and afraid to move out?  She's not too ill and afraid to work.  Just because she has BPD doesn't mean she gets a free pass to act like a kid her entire life.  She's an adult, and she's responsible for herself now.  If she needs therapeutic support to cope, then she should get it.  We all have our health issues, and we all are responsible for getting them taken care of, through check-ups, taking medications or maintaining healthy lifestyle habits.

Is she acting too ill and afraid because YOU think she's too ill and afraid?  Do you have doubts about her ability to function on her own?  Well then I'd say you have to stop having doubts, because your daughter is probably picking up on that, and she's using it to her advantage.  She is a 30-year-old, employed, able-bodied adult.  She is perfectly capable.  Just because she has BPD doesn't mean she's disabled and has to live in her childhood home the rest of her life.  Does she drive a car?  If she can drive a car, she can live in an apartment.  If she's truly ill and afraid, I would say that she should have her driver's license revoked.  Driving a car in that condition, she could be a lethal danger to herself or others.  Do you see how the double standard works?

Moving into one's own apartment should be exciting!  Imagine, having your own space all to yourself, to do whatever you want with it, getting peace and quiet or making a mess or listening to music without having to consider others.  Having one's own address, not a parent's address.  Being responsible for utilities, upkeep, etc.  Decorating how you please.  Not having parents monitor your every move.  It's a sign of adulthood, and it should confer some social status.  Be excited for her achieving this milestone!

It sounds like you gave her a year's notice about moving out, and yet she hasn't made progress.  I would warn her about the coming deadline.  I'm thinking you need a plan to reclaim your house in stages.  You tell your daughter exactly what's going to happen in your household in the next few months.  It might look something like this:

*Starting June 1, she pays rent to you for a bedroom, so she gets in the habit.  It's only fair, as you are nearing retirement (or already in it), and it's not in your budget to provide free housing to an able-bodied adult forever.
*Any rent that she pays you, you might offer to turn around and give back to her to help her pay a security deposit and buy some furnishings for her apartment.  But if she's not out by September 1, she doesn't get the rent back.  And any day she stays beyond September 1, she owes you double rent.  During that time, you would start the legal eviction process, if it came to that.  It's entirely her choice.
*Starting July 1, her the access to the rest of the house becomes restricted.  No more free food, free laundry, free internet, free TV.  Disconnect the family TV!  If she wants to wash clothes, she can go to a laundromat.  Basically you confine her to a room which she's renting, but disallow free access to the rest of the house, so that she feels uncomfortable, and her own apartment starts looking appealing.  Your reason for doing this is because she's an adult, and the time has come for her to provide for herself now--you are done providing for children.  That's basically what you wrote.
*You could offer to go apartment hunting with her.  You might say that every Saturday from noon to 3 PM you will devote to finding an apartment with her, until she signs a lease and moves out.
*On August 1st, she has to pack up and move out of her room to a different (inferior) room (or basement), because you are re-decorating her room.  You've been wanting to make a lady lair for a long time now, and you want to get started on it now (ordering a sofa, finding decorative items, picking out paint, etc.), so you can move into it on August 1st.  She can pack up her stuff in boxes in anticipation of leaving the home entirely by September 1st.
*Don't cater to her!  Don't make her meals, do her grocery shopping, clean up after her or take care of her pets.  Your job as caretaker is done.  If anything, she should do that for you!

In summary, since you are three short months away from the deadline, and you're not seeing any progress, you could start a conversation when you're both calm.  Explain how you're excited that she's about to get her own place, and you're wondering what neighborhoods she's looking at.  If she seems uncomfortable, reassure her that you know she can do it, but if she wants some company on the hunt, you're available to go with her.  If she seems argumentative, stay firm.  Reiterate the plan:  what happens on June 1, July 1, August 1 and September 1.

By the way, I recently converted a child's bedroom into a lady lair.  I wish I had done it sooner.  It's my favorite place in the house now.

Stay positive, be firm, have some confidence in your daughter and good luck!  If your daughter rages at the changes, just focus on looking forward to her moving out, because you're going to make it happen, even if she doesn't do it voluntarily at first.  The plan is actually more for you than for your daughter.  You get a lady lair, and you get your house back.  You need to make sure you have a plan, communicate it and stick to it.  It's your daughter's choice whether she moves out of her room voluntarily in one go, or in stages, or if she gets evicted.  But she's leaving (willingly or unwillingly) because that's your plan.

Hello everyone! This is my first post and I could use some advice. I have been in a w|w relationship with my girlfriend (pwBPD) for a year now and it hasn’t been easy. I knew from the beginning that she has childhood and relationship trauma and some ongoing mental health issues (as do I), and she didn’t mention her undiagnosed BPD until a few months after we became official. I had heard about BPD previously, and I started doing research on the topic so I know how to better support my girlfriend and take care of myself. I have always been supportive, compassionate, reassuring, and understanding. I have tried my hardest to create a safe space for her, but she has had trouble trusting me even though I never did anything to make her doubt my sincerity and good intentions.
There have been ongoing trust issues that have triggered my girlfriend and caused arguments between us. I have been getting better at setting boundaries with her and calling her out when she reacts with anger or when she’s treating me poorly.
My girlfriend has realized that my sister is a toxic person with narcissistic tendencies. My sister made a comment at karaoke night about my girlfriend not speaking Spanish and I stood up for my girlfriend and told my sister that it didn’t matter and that I can always teach her if she wants. This didn’t sit right with my girlfriend and it started an argument where she wanted me to talk to my sister and let her know my girlfriend doesn’t want to be near her and that she deleted her from social media, etc. She kept pushing me to have this conversation with my sister and I told her I felt pressured and to let me handle it when I am ready. She agreed to give me space to handle the situation on my own and apologized for pressuring me.
One month after that conversation, now April 2024, I made a birthday shoutout post for my girlfriend and my sister commented on it and tagged my girlfriend to wish her a happy birthday (it is important to note that mine and my girlfriend’s birthdays are two days apart). I was with my girlfriend when this happened and she showed me on her phone that my sister sent her a friend request. My heart dropped because I knew this was going to start an argument and it did. My girlfriend became so pissed off and told me that this would have never happened if I would’ve had the conversation with my sister when she told me to. My girlfriend said my sister was bullying her by sending that friend request. I had a trauma response and I froze. I just sat there as my girlfriend unleashed hell on me. I told my girlfriend I would have the conversation with my sister that Friday when I saw her. This went down on Monday. This wasn’t good enough for my girlfriend and I finally caved and told her I would have the conversation the following day. My girlfriend told me that I ruined her birthday. I went all out for her birthday and made sure everything from her custom cake to our dinner reservation was planned perfectly. I also made sure to buy her the gift she wanted.
I started the conversation with my sister the following day and again, I had a trauma response and I froze. I was unable to finish the conversation. My girlfriend accused me of being manipulated by my sister and that my sister’s apology wasn’t sincere. I became so stressed and overwhelmed by the situation and a streak of bad luck I was having in my life. My girlfriend kept nagging and nagging (her words) me to finish the conversation. She called me a coward and told me she despised me. I finished the conversation with my sister. Things only got worse with my girlfriend from there. She now says that I put my sister above her and that I have betrayed her. She keeps pointing out my flaws (things I am going to therapy for) and telling me that she finds me and my actions unattractive. I know that this situation has triggered her abandonment issues that stem from her childhood. I understand that this is one of the worst things that could have happened and I apologized for the role that I played, but I am not taking full responsibility. I unintentionally hurt her and we have not been able to move forward from it. Since this incident happened, she has been extra distant. She’s been extremely reactive and we keep going in circles arguing about the same thing. She’s told me that she has no empathy for me and that she feels completely detached from the relationship. She’s not only withholding affection, but she doesn’t want me expressing love towards her because she feels it’s fake. She’s also been withholding my birthday gift and told me I’m not getting my gift because she isn’t “going to reward me”. She also uninvited me to a vacation we planned last year, but she is still going.
This situation has also triggered me and I feel like I am in an abusive relationship from my past. I have been giving my girlfriend all the space she needs, but she’s constantly telling me that she doesn’t see us making it through this. I don’t know what to do or how to handle this situation. Does anyone have advice for me? Are we really doomed? I want to make things right and strengthen our relationship.
 

Hello SendingKindness,

You can do this! You know that the mean words she says are not really what she means. When I was able to contact my daughter after the 11 years of her cutting me off I emailed her, it was not a gushy one about me not understanding why she left me and how much I missed her. I simply told her facts I felt she needed to know.

When she blasted me in an email (telling me that everything that has happened in her life was my fault), I was actually pleasantly surprised that she bothered to even write me back. That was how I knew that Her words were not what mattered, but what she was really doing (even though she probably didn’t realize) was reaching out to me.
As I thought about it later it opened the wound of her cutting me off, but was necessary for my own healing. I often feel like crying, I am often in the Word and I listen to Contemporary Christian music throughout my days (YouTube on the tv) and these things along with prayer bring me great comfort.

The disorder changes the messages they hear and what they say, focus on the emotions coming from the person.
And of course you know to not even try until they are calm. Another idea would be to take baby steps in setting boundaries, only seek to agree on one thing at a time and record this in a personal notebook (For your eyes only-do not say anything about this to her), it will help you keep track of what she will hopefully honor as agreed.

Since my daughter does not talk to me, she is also high-functioning and has her master degree, plus she has genius IQ. I know that she can make it on her own, which gives me comfort and, thankfully she has not asked me for money since she refuses to talk to me, so that may be a consideration.

I’m not going to lie, as you have experienced before, it is heart-breaking and I don’t know how I would do with handling this if I did not know God. But it does allow to focus on your own plans and desires.

OurWorld

I had a similar conversation with my T the other day.  I am having issues that as soon as my uBPDh transfers back to a normal/happy mode with me, I do too, with no discussion on what happened (usually I have no idea), how I felt when he was in his mood, who he is affecting, etc.  I keep telling myself that I want to start a discussion to talk about what had just happened, but I keep "failing" to do so as I just go with his mood.  My T asked me in the past has having any sort of deeper conversation ever been beneficial to our relationship?  The answer to which is no.  She asked me why I thought it would be different this time?  Which made me realize that it wouldn't.  She suggested that, as long as he is not being abusive, I try to accept the situation for what it is and remind myself that (again as long as he is not being abusive) he is doing the best he can in the moment and asking more in the moment won't work. 

Thank you for sharing your story!  It was encouraging but it made realize I’ve got a long way to go with my own situation.

I’m currently trying to get my wife to recognize what is going without using the term BPD.  Instead I’m using the phrase “extreme emotionalism” in reference to her behaviors. So far she is denying it but I’m not going to give up as the goal is to get her into therapy specifically for this issue.

Thanks again - I’m glad thing progressing positively in your family.

No formal diagnosis, but I probably have those traits at least. Interesting theory. I think being neurodivergent reduces the potential pool of partners to begin with, as many neurotypical  people may be turned off by the  social awkwardness  that can come with being  neurodivergent. So, when a Cluster B type personality enters the picture and someone seems to finally "get you" and the the idealization with the love bombing starts, odds are pretty good you're going to take the bait.  I think the only antidote is more self awareness and self acceptance. If I knew then what I know now . . .

No hope

Guys, I'm so done. I can't cope with all the hurt, my ex put me through. I've been through domestic violence. Here's my story:

So I was in highschool. That was 4 and a half years ago. I was actually broken too. Had several PTSD therapies and was absolutely broken. My childhood was tough as my father had BPD and was very abusive. My parents got divorced and we haven't spoken for 10 years, with my father. That's why I had PTSD. 4 and a half years ago, I met this girl. She was so innocent and lost. I knew, I had to ask her out. Things were quick. A month later, we started dating and my love for her only grew faster. On the other hand, her parents hated me from the very beginning. My father was arab and so my skin tone is slightly darker which is unacceptable, in my country. And as she is a pale blonde, they were upset because I'd probably ruin their pure white family with my genes if I ever had a child with their daughter. This was pretty hard pill to swallow..

Anyways, we remained dating. Everything was just perfect untill the day I took her to a camping site during summer holidays. Went for a hike and suddenly, she started crying, saying she's having this "crisis". The "crisis", ever since then, became her tool to make me try harder. That's when the emotional abuse began. She's had about 15 of those major crises throughout the relationship. Later on, she told me she was lost and didn't know whether she's not missing something while being with me. I fixed that and she switched back to loving me.
After that, things got worse. I mean, her demeanor was somewhat different. We started having arguments over NOTHING. But yeah, it wasn't that dramatic so far, so we remained together. Another year went by and I remember, I was like, 18? I took her out for shopping. Out of the blue, she told me to my eyes, I don't love you anymore. My heart was torn apart. I remained still. Told her that we could take a pause so that she could think it through. I gave her space. Man, it is excruciatingly painful when you tell them that you love them and they don't respond. I did everything she wanted. After a month, she switched back again. At this time, I realized, I wouldn't make it if I lost her. I've put her first in any aspect of life. I've sacrificed so much for her. Her demands were only higher and higher yet her respect for me went to zero. But still, another year passed by. The third year, I went through hell. My father called me. It was intense as we haven't spoken for 10 years. He told me, he has a cancer in it's final stage. Heartbreaking. I had to take care about him till the end. Meanwhile, my gf had a beef with her mother and I've decided to help her and take care of her problem as well as that of mine, with my father. I even ended up taking her mother to a restaurant where I had to explain, how it is important to communicate, in family. You get it? Me, a 20 yo, let's say kid, explaining this to a 50yo woman? WILD. I stood our ground and told her that we are moving. Did my girlfriend thank me? Nah. But before moving in together, I managed to find us a part time job abroad, for the entire summer holiday. I was so proud of myself that I could really manage to do this. We went there and the very first thing she told me was that she's about to have another crisis. It crushed me. We were supposed to help some old owners of a guest house. They only spoke their language, couldn't speak english nor our language, so clearly, I said, I have to learn their language so that I'd be able to communicate with them. My gf? She told ME to speak with them. After a month being there, I could speak quite well and she could barely say anything. Still, she blamed me for it and made a huge scene in public about it. Speaking of the huge scenes, she made these even in our country. She always did it in public, where she would start screaming, crying in order to make me look as an abuser in front of everyone. She did it many many times, mostly in shopping centers.

When we returned, we moved in together. Of course, I was the one who found us a dormitory to be. She didn't do anything for it. Our mutual life was okay, at least to her. I started feeling neglected and abused. The hell was only to begin. She started calling me names, making scenes in public so that I seemed as a total abuser even more frequently, gaslighting, blackmailing, humiliating, she hated my friends, hated my projects (podcasts), hated my opinions and everything I did was just wrong. Sometimes, it went physical. She blamed me for receiving an orphan's pension and not taking her out or buying her PLEASE READ. It hurts to write. Sexually, she liked to frustrate me for weeks or even a month. Then, when I naturally didn't last long, she threw a tantrum. Sometimes, she screamed at me during sex over something I did or didn't do during the day. Then, it got even worse. We didn't sleep together whatsoever and she started isolating me. Blamed me for going to my parents for a weekend, saying, I don't feel at home with her. She even forbade me lighting a candle on the day it was a year after my father died.
I was so lethargic. Didn't know what to do. She found herself some friends at work and started hanging out with them after work. I remember going for her to work in winter. It was so cold. She left me waiting outside for an hour only to tell me that she was in a pub, after work. I stopped going there. And she hated me for that. Then, she broke up with me. Just like that. She was so suspiciously over it. I asked her about any other guy and was told she doesn't have any nor does she want anyone else. I went home, to my parents. A few days after, I found out, she had a crush at work. Well, my panic attacks came back.

she seemed so indifferent but when I returned to that room, I saw, it was a room of a total mess. I found our photos on the desk, our products still displayed and my t-shirt, she clearly still slept in it. So damn weird. That's when it got really really suspicious. I consulted this whole situation with my psychologist and he said, by all that I describe, There's no doubt she has a BPD and I wouldn't ever change her. The end was INEVITABLE. But I didn't know much about BPD, back then. I didn't know anything about charming. She did it. She stalked me to school and made a huge scene in front of my classmates about how she still loves me and won't make it through summer without me. I rejected her and told her to go away. A few days after, I was so curious about what might happen. I just went to the room again and I shouldn't have done it. She took a pose. A mask of arrogance so that I can't hurt her. The first thing she said was that she's happy without me. It made angry and confused because it didn't make sense as she told me how she still loves me, before. I spat all the PLEASE READ she put me through, at her. I didn't scream or anything, but told her everything. She said things that hurt me but I hurt her too. I could see her "mask" breaking and her eyes flooding in tears. Oh god, I hurt myself by doing that. I suggested, I knew about her crush all the time. She acted indifferent. I left.

I feel shame. As a man, I should've acted more assertive. I just couldn't and so I came through the same hurt, as during my childhood.

I can't do this anymore. The pain is just excruciating.

Hi cheeseplease and welcome to the group 

It's so tricky when we need to do something for ourselves and our values, and we have a sense that it just isn't going to go over well. As reasonably kind people, we don't want to increase pain or conflict if it's at all avoidable... such a tough needle to thread when BPD is involved.

One thing I have to keep reminding myself of is that BPD stands for Borderline Personality Disorder -- I cannot assume "oh, pwBPD basically think and process like me, except with a diagnosis". Thinking and relating patterns are disordered, not rational/functional/predictable. So sometimes we think, "If I just phrased it as ____________, I think she'd feel cared for", or "once I find out the technique for communication, it's guaranteed I can get through to her", or "based on how it seemed like she felt lately, I bet now is a good time for me to say __________". I'm just not sure it's that predictable -- we don't have that level of control over how anyone feels, really, and over how a pwBPD feels, specifically.

That's not to say "do and say whatever, there's nothing you can do". There are some structured approaches to communicating with a pwBPD that can be more effective than "intuitive" ways we communicate.

For example, in terms of feeling a need to make a statement of truth about yourself, the Support, Empathy, Truth framework can help.

In terms of making a request or trying to problemsolve, DEARMAN can be effective.

And when stating what will happen, what you will do, or clearing up misunderstandings (especially in written communication), keeping it Brief, Informative, Friendly, and Firm may be the way to go.

But beneath all those approaches, it's our mindset that matters, especially for a question like this:


For me, big picture, I might be trying to find a balance between: I'm going to do the best I can to communicate in the most effective way I can learn, and I don't control my friend's perceptions, beliefs, feelings, or responses, and the way she responds to my communication isn't what determines whether it was the right thing to do.

Because BPD may be involved, she may not respond in a predictable way to your communication approaches -- I'd say that's a feature, not a bug, of BPD. It may take some sitting with your own discomfort, and some acceptance that you can't control the outcome, to make it through.

Drilling down into details, my gut feeling is to keep any communication about your plans short. Avoid long explanations, justifications for your choice, trying to "get her to see" your perspective, or giving off a sense of wavering or that she can argue you out of it. Warmth, empathy, and firmness may help:

"Hey, just a heads up that I need to move and my last day in the apartment will be 6/30 (I'll keep paying rent through 8/31). Can't wait to figure out a game night with you so we can stay connected!"

Who knows how she'll respond to that -- it may depend on whatever her inner experience is in that moment -- but returning to short responses full of warmth and desire to connect, may be more effective than Justifying, Arguing, Defending, or Explaining (or taking bait she may offer):

Her: "I can't believe you'd just leave me like that. I have no idea where you're coming from. Do you ever even think of anyone besides yourself?

"Yeah, it does suck, for sure. I don't love change either. What do you think about Fridays for a day to connect, maybe at wine night?"

...

Curious if any of that seems helpful or on target?

I have been thinking a lot about a similar question lately. But mostly about the second part, why do I feel attracted to Crazy (no valueing implied by me). I do feel there are some reasons that are specific to me and some others, but that are often lacking in this discussion.

I was late-diagnosed with ADHD a while ago, but never cared about it except for medication. Currently I am finding out that I also have a lot of ASD traits, maybe even enough for a complete ASD diagnosis.

Yeah, all my life I felt attracted to highly emotional reactive crazy type of women. I kind of don't need to develop a CRAYDAR. In my life I have been attracted to only two types of women, other neurodivergents or cluster-B women. If I am attracted to her, I can be absolutely sure by now she ticks at least one of those boxes.

One reason I think I feel so extremely attracted to cluster-B is that they often allow themselves to more openly show traits that I learned to mask. I have been abused or mobbed frequently whenever I tried to be openly myself, so this really is something I am missing in my life. And it would just be so great to be someone who allows himself to be more openly atypical and also to have another person in my life who feels the same way and can relate to feeling different from others. I found both types of women that I feel attracted to can deeply relate to this experience and this creates an instant bond.

Also I do share a lot of the emotional high-reactivity. Neurodivergence and cluster-B disorders have an extremely high overlap in terms of symptoms. BPD is a very common misdiagnosis for women with ADHD or ASD, so even professionals seem to struggle with detecting the difference.

It is something I am currently trying to come to terms with. I almost had a final breakup with my uBPDw a few months ago and reflected heavily on this and how I want to live my life in the future. Realizing I feel highly attracted to both cluster-Bs and neurodivergent women made me feel much less like a victim and showed me all the beautiful aspects these relationships have put into my life. It also helped me realize that I really have to work on my on unmasking to feel much less in need of following someone else in their atypical ways and to learn more about myself.