Here's an article that refers to the matches between HSPs and HCPs:

https://highlysensitiverefuge.com/stay-away-from-high-conflict-people/

What I meant to say above is we'd have like 4-5 of these: I'm going to split on you kind of events per year. If shee had been doing it once a week and threatening to leave me when we had not built a life with kids, family, etc, I *would* have left. I'm in a worse place mentally, physically than I was at 30.

 

My wife is acting with extreme symptoms and no counseling or discussion is helping at all.

There have been periods of time in the past when there were symptoms (deep criticism, stonewalling, yelling, etc.)

But it's gone to another level now.

up to an hour of day of outright yelling

temper turns on in a heart beat

verging on violence, (throwing things, breaking things)

We've been to 4 counselors, as long as they will focus on my issues, she's willing to keep going, but as soon as they touch on one of her issues she says "they don't know what they are doing" and she either doesn't want to go back, or just literally argues with them the entire time.

This is at a extreme level, leaving would be the easiest option.

but I'd really rather try to work through it, if at all possible.

But I need tools.

I've read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells

In the past, just de-escalating worked - walking away, shallow responses, time

But now, nothing works.

If I leave for a few hours or the day, then it subsides . .

but comes back with a vengeance within a day or so.

I wrestle with "boundaries" - refusing to engage at all when she's that angry - but I don't feel like that's really working.

I don't want to leave.

What are some tools when things are so advanced?

Thanks for any insight.

Mark

@ompluscator:
Thanks much for relaying your experience. That is super interesting, re your prior relationship and the effectiveness of medication and treatment. It is definitely a hopeful thing to hear.

To date, I've honestly never had any expectation for my wife to be open to the idea of treatment/therapy. From her perspective, she is the only person who is in their right mind, everyone else is a mess/inconsistent in her eyes...

She will tell you she is a 'straight shooter', 'direct', etc with pride, in her mind she is one of the few people willing to speak unvarnished 'truth'... but seeing what this means in practice basically means she will give someone her direct (unsupported by evidence) opinion to their face without any regard for their feelings when she is splitting on them.

Even for a physical illness, she will make claims about not trusting "doctors" (she'll go to the dentist but has not been to a regular doctor for nearly a decade)... often says they say things and schedule follow ups for profit or other motives, etc. Anytime anyone brings up a mental health concern its immediate eye rolls. It's like that is for people who just don't have the courage to do the "right" things in life...

But more to your key point: As the partner of someone with issues like this, and someone who has been in a committed relationship for close to 30 years with this person, *I* clearly have some issues to work on that are in my control. I need to get my self esteem sorted and understand what I am willing or should tolerate and how I can draw boundaries. I have a fear of abandonment myself.

I also still hope there is some way I can get her to improve; but as noted, I would be surprised if I am ever able to get her to admit she needs to and am not going to make "hoping for a miracle" my plan.

The biggest problem is that it is getting much *worse* much faster rather than better as we head into our retirement years and her threatening to leave me all the time is triggering MY OWN problems/weaknesses. I am pretty certain, I cannot live like this long term, I suppose the anxiety will just do me in at some point even if I manage to stay/keep it together without improvement. I am freaking out myself at the possibility of a lifestyle change and cannot deal with these episodes.

I am conflict avoidant... It takes me weeks to recover emotionally from a blow out, it is getting to the point where tiny stuff is setting her off on me all the time and she is taking absolutely no ownership for anything of the things she is complaining about and will not even acknowledge the possibility that she may not be reading my mind correctly...

For like the first 25 years, we would have like four or fewer of these kind of crazy meltdowns... I could recover and the great times have been *amazingly* great. But the last 5-10 years has been a ramp to where we are now, where I am daily in fear of her being triggered and we can have four or five blow outs in month. Just crossing paths with one of the neighbor women is enough to put our entire week at risk. I'm less willing to leave the house, etc.

Anyway, sorry, I guess I am kind of spiraling myself here (has some issues this weekend); but, in principle, I agree with the wisdom here:  my own emotions and issues are what I can control and as a partner for someone with this kind of set of issues, I need to be the one to draw lines because I am the one who is self-aware enough to know what is rational and what is not...

After I started getting interested in Borderline (BPD) then many things started to be able to fit BPD , and many things can be explained, if she has BPD

The stories she tells often change when they are told later

My wife has always talked badly about her ex-husband, and I understood that too.

After I started to take a little interest in her past, and read some old emails and documents from before I met my wife, which should actually have been deleted on an old PC that had to be thrown away, things came out that were something surprisingly. The bad things she had said about her ex-husband also fit, but there were also several places in various documents and emails where she wrote that she still loved him, even after they had separated. She wrote that she often missed him and wanted to be in a family again, although she also wrote that he was often mean to her and said nasty things, and it was also described how they met and were intimate together, although they actually often hated each other.

As time has passed, she has no contact with her friends and she has blocked all her past people she has known on her phone.

Her stories, which she tells on a daily basis about her past, also do not always fit with what has been previously described.



I've tried probing it with some leading questions and she doesn't answer it clearly, saying she never wanted to be around him after she moved away, and they only communicated via email and very short meetings in public places like the school



I'm probably the "sweet guy" who finds myself in a lot, but I can also feel that as the years go by, I become more insecure about myself and let her control the day-to-day, and she is also a very controlling person in that daily, and sometimes I don't feel like doing anything at home.

We often have very good days when things work well and we are both still very much in love with each other and I can't be without her at all, but the times when things explode, I feel like this is hard to handle, but I try to forget it again when she is back in her normal mood.

It can be difficult on a daily basis to deal with the strong outbursts and the manipulations that she also affects me and other people, and when people see her from the outside, she also looks like someone who just has everything under control, and it's always the others who does the wrong thing, even though she actually does the wrong thing herself, just as she herself describes others do. It is hard for others to understand that such a beautiful and intelligent woman who talks to everyone, but if they knew what actually goes on at home when things blow up, they would be very surprised. since all the people we meet on a daily basis, both in the children's school and elsewhere, see that my wife has things under control, and looks very elegant and is very eloquent when she meets people.



She often asks me about my former girlfriend/friend, how she was, and if I miss her, and comes up with cryptic questions where I get confused myself, and may not answer exactly like what she has previously heard, then she says: "That's not what you said the last time I asked you…." and I then have to think about what she meant by her question, and in the end it feels like an interrogation. She is always the one who often comes up with questions about my previous relationship, even if I don't have any thoughts about it.

If I ask about her past, she is often told good and exciting things about her former boyfriends and friends, and she definitely does this to make me jealous, so that I focus even more on her.

She is always afraid that I will leave her, and that is when the special and cryptic questions come, such as:



“Will you always protect me if something happens to me?”



"If another beautiful woman comes by, will you look at her?"



“You surely won't protect me if someone attacks me!”



"If you met your ex-girlfriend, what would you say to her?"



There are really a lot of those types of questions that seem cryptic and confusing, and I wonder why she would often ask such things,



It can be difficult when you think about what makes me unable to break this vicious circle, which often occurs, but I am probably what you describe as the "sweet guy" who would not harm anyone, but inside me is there's often a frustration that tells me I'm not doing things right, but I can't do without my wife and we have a great friendship, love affair with powerful intimate moments, with all that entails.



Everything in this story is just some of the descriptions about my wife and us, many pages could be written about events in our lives



Around a person like her, there are challenges in a relationship, and it takes a lot of strength to cope with the daily challenges.



My parents are not exactly her favorite persons, as they have probably been a little superficial towards her, and I will also admit that they could be there for her a little more.

This somewhat tense relationship between her and them often means that they are almost always mentioned in a conflict between her and me, such as "You look exactly like your mother, who also does it..." and suddenly I've been pushed a little out of the conflict between her and me, and the conversation has switched to the conflict between her and "them", and when she's finished and things have cooled down, then everything is calm again, and she will be ok again after a while. This way of switching between this black and white way happens often.



It could also be her aunt, who also lives close to us, with whom she is often in conflict. One day she's the worst, and other days when they talk things are pretty good again.



When she has a conflict with her oldest boy, he can also be the worst in the world, and she thinks he should move back in with his father, and other days the relationship is normal.



Some examples:



When I don't meet her expectations of a husband who must always be there behind her



If I just overlook an incident where I should be helping her with something, and I'm in another room, then I can hear a door being slammed or something being knocked on, for example, then I know I've overlooked something, and I'm just told that "it doesn't matter now, you're only thinking about yourself", This phrase she often mentions that others say, but she has forgotten that she herself uses it.



She is generally very double-minded when she accuses others of something that she actually does herself, but I think she is not aware of this herself.



Often she repeats what I just told the boys to remember or something, so she always gets the last word in a conversation.



She loves to exaggerate a story about her past life and the people she has known and met.

Another thing is that when she talks about an experience we've had, for example a trip to other people, then everything is suddenly twice as big, or, where we stayed, the hotel was really fantastic, even if it was just an ok hotel , or if we have visited a place twice a year, then we have been there many times. These are some of the things that could be exaggerated.



She often creates conflicts between her and other people by being very black and white in her perception of a situation where you should just be a little diplomatic, then it solved things, but she often gets into a fight over words and actions that others say and do.

I often experience this as one of the things to blame for her mood swings.



As I said, we have an even good relationship with a lot of love between us, but the outbursts and changing moods and her twisting the truth about others and her past can be confusing and hard.



I can also feel that she actually also wants to change my history, truth and relationship with people, family and other things that have happened in my past life, so she makes me believe that it is they who are to blame for me being the way I am is, and does not always fulfill her expectations of life, and that she is right that everyone is against her, but the truth is that she is the one who pushes them away.



My wife previously went to a psychologist several times before she met me, she has since not wanted to talk to other people about challenges and thoughts from her previous life.



As I said, I'm the "sweet guy type" who doesn't like conflicts, and I always try to be a diplomat between her and other people, so that it often works out between them, without her thinking about it.



I think that if I didn't have my day job from 8 to 16, then I don't think we will survive as a couple and I will be mentally broken completely.



But then again, I love my wife very much, and care for her very much, and can't do without her either, but it's hard that you often have to be a punching bag, who has to be able to cope with the psychological effects and then know that shortly after is "normal" again.

She is a loving person who looks after and cares for me immensely, and wants me to look good.



She is the type who is also very smug and wants the things she wants, and when she has spent a lot of money on her own beauty, expensive bags, jewelry and anything else she wants, and she then says that she is the "only one" who thinks about saving money in the family, by finding offers in the supermarket (it is of course also good that she saves money there), but in relation to spending most of the money we have available after all bills are paid, then a large part often goes to her, but I also support her in most things (you don't understand that), but I'm probably afraid that she will break down if she doesn't get her needs met.


Many, when reading this post, will probably think, why doesn't he do more about it or why does he find himself in it???

But it is probably my weakness that I have developed over the years, and that it is difficult to change it, but I try daily to mitigate the situations that may come up with my diplomatic ability which often solves the problems, but as I said, it solves absolutely not everything and some days can be tough.

You must've been so scared those 12 hours. My ex had some kind of psychotic break when my (then) 11-year-old son was staying the night and it was the worst night of my life.

It may not seem like good news but the fact your ex ended up in a mental health hold and CPS got involved gives you a lot of documented evidence. I know it seems nerve-wracking when the BPD traits seem masked but documentation of severe psychiatric instability by third-party professionals can go a long way in your favor, especially given the age of your child. Your ex has proven he isn't safe so it isn't a he-said/she-said, it's a "he did this."

What is often more challenging is coming up with a stepped plan. Your ex might be evaluated for a psychiatric diagnosis, but that's not a reason to prevent contact. What I would do in your shoes is to propose a series of reasonable solutions like anger management classes, parenting classes, a forensic psychiatric evaluation (conducted by a licensed forensic psychiatrist trained to conduct an MMPI or similar), substance abuse treatment (if applicable) and supervised visitation until completion of the above or something else within reason.

Many pwBPD struggle to stick with a plan due to extreme emotional instability. Let him show that he is willing and able to do what is reasonable so that the responsibility is on him. Chances are that he will struggle to initiate.

After my ex had a psychotic break he was permitted 4 hours unsupervised visitation 2x a week. Not surprisingly, my ex would periodically cancel what little time he had, rarely if ever asking to make up that time. In the meantime, he kept trying to get more time through court motions. I got numb to the cage rattling behaviors because rarely was he able to stay organized long enough to pull anything off. The hard part is that it's your baby -- it's difficult to manage your nervous system when it's your child.

Make sure your attorney does not gift anything away without your ex being on the hook to show meaningful documentation that he is better. It should be on your terms, not what your ex and his lawyer says.

Also, this may not apply to you, but in my experience people like us who end up in these relationships aren't often great at recognizing what is "smart" and "high-functioning." I would've said the same about my ex. He was a former trial attorney and of all people should've known how to behave and what to do or not do. Instead, he sent emails, left voicemails, and texted proof that he was unfit to parent. He insulted his lawyer and the judge in court, and ended up representing himself, making it easier for the court to see his disordered behavior.

Our exes might be "high-functioning" to us but to many people their inability to make good choices and how they handle even moderate levels of stress is often non-sensical to people witnessing our divorces.

Hi Steppenwolf,

I think you are on to something here. I am also nuerodivirgent. I am not on the autism spectrum, nor do I have ADHD, but I do have a high IQ (I am a member of Mensa) and I have been told by two therapists that I am a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP.) One of them gave me a book to read on HSPs and, apparently, we make up about 10 percent of the population. We are the polar opposites of a High Conflict Person (HCP) who also make up about 10 percent of the population. Most pwBPD fall into the category of HCPs, but not all HCPs are pwBPD.

HCPs feed off of conflict. It recharges their batteries and they are always looking to generate more conflict to feed off of. HSPs are highly empathic and absorb the feelings of those around them. Because HSPs have so much empathy, they can be easily overwhelmed by negativity and will do almost anything to avoid conflict. A match between an HCP and an HSP is highly toxic for the HSP, but it is a goldmine for the HCP. The HCP will generate drama/conflict and the HSP will absorb it. The HCP feels recharged and the HSP feels drained. The HSP will not run away though because we feel empathy for the HCP who is so obviously in distress and in need of help. This is not a codependent relationship. The HSP can, and often does, get physically ill because they are drained to the point of exhaustion.

High-IQ individuals are more likely to be HSPs. The higher the IQ, the more likely they are to be HSP. From my casual observation of the discourse on these boards, it seems like most of us "nons" would fall into the category of high-IQ people. We are, for the most part, successful in most aspects of our lives outside of our romantic relationships with our BPD partners. This is not the marker of a codependent person. I believe that pwBPD are drawn to us HSPs, unconsciously, because we provide them with the perfect match (for them at least.) We do not have all of the baggage that a codependent would bring to the table, but we do have a huge reserve of empathy that they are dying to tap into. That's my working theory at least.

HurtAndTired

Thank you both - this is really helpful advice. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Notwendy,
We are all a work in progress in knowing when we are safe and can keep our emotional distance. The hard part is when we cannot walk away from people and situations which mean a great deal to us.

The meeting was very emotionally charged for me because I fought hard to insist that the many years of abuse and intimidation of people in the meeting end and we develop more respectful ways of participating in the meeting, including making it easier for people to feel comfortable in sharing their points of view. A few weeks before the meeting, I had several communications with the person in charge of planning and running the meeting who is new and he at one point said he was going to bar me from attending the meeting. He also sent me an email implying that I have NPD which is projection on his part. As the meeting progressed and became extremely emotionally charged for me, I found myself talking over people, though I did it less than in past meetings. (My mother with BPD talked over people and dominated conversations. I am working hard to change these learned behaviors and mostly am doing better with this, except when I am in highly emotionally charged situations.) It was the first meeting in which all the members participated and the topics discussed were extremely charged. I was not happy with how some people showed their true colors, the more narcissistic ones, yet I feel better that the adversity was on the table instead of all the passive aggressive behaviors that went on for years and the open abuse of members in the meetings.

I feel that I am more and more living my life in line with my values these days instead of being the helpless victim chosen since birth to be one of the scapegoats of the disordered family members from both my FOO and large extended family. I am supposed to go along with being abused and blamed for all kinds of things that are not my fault at all. Several years ago, this group chose me as one of their scapegoats and I will not stand for it. It does not help that my sister with NPD smeared me to them for years and continues to do so. I could not understand why people from this group talked down to me when they did not even know me and had not seen me for a long time when I was unaware of my sister's ongoing smear campaign. There are a lot of new members in the group and I am working on having a more mutually respectful relationship with all of them. Some of the worst members have exited the group as it has become clear that they are not going to get away with behaving so badly (though some of the worst bullies are still very much involved and there are new members in the group who are bullies).
 
Getting treated decently by others starts with respecting myself first, being comfortable in my own shoes, having the right kind of boundaries in place, instead of communicating that I don't feel worthy of being treated with respect and kindness.

So my wife has never been diagnosed with anything, but I have had feelings over the years that she is mini-BPD or NPD. In order to be diagnosed, she would have to go to counseling, which is a non-starter.

There have been times over the years where she has laid false accusations on me, and sometimes this has come out of the blue. Others, it's during some kind of disagreement or when we're sort of distant, which is sometimes my fault since I'm not as physically affectionate as I should be most of the time. Most of the time things are stable which is why I've started thinking it's a mini-BPD if that's possible.

The accusations are common: that I wear mirror shades so I can ogle other women (I don't), I own binoculars so I can spy on other women (I don't), that I synchronize the time I leave the house when a female neighbor is outside (I don't), having an affair with the nanny (NEVER), accusing me of planning to leave the family when youngest turns 18 (never)...you name it. I always backpedal and try to tell her none of it's true and that I love her, and feel guilty afterwards for not having more of a backbone. Naturally, she is more comfortable with conflict than I am.

Some of this is gaslighting, which could be NPD instead of BPD, I don't know. Several years ago she left a lingerie magazine on my sink in the bathroom, and when I found it I asked why she had put it there...she said I must have done that since I obviously use those things to 'get off.' I got angry and there was a lot of shouting, and I wound up sleeping in another bedroom for a couple of months.

This past week she 'jokingly' claimed my email was found on the Ashley Madison hack since she'd been watching that doc on Netflix. That was never true, my email was found in the Adobe hack in 2013...but why bother with facts? I guess it wasn't 'jokingly' because that night we had to install Instagram to track our teenager's college class channel.

I left my phone in the bathroom for an hour or so before bedtime, and when I came to bed and unlocked the phone there was an Instagram pic of some girl in a bikini. Now, I never searched for any of that and it was clear to me she had used my phone to bring the picture up by searching for it. I asked her if she'd been messing with my phone and she said she found the pic on my phone so obviously I was looking for it!

I didn't get angry like last time, but I was upset and calmly said I didn't search for it and asked her to tell the truth, which she refused to do. I started feeling bad and said I'd download all my Insta activity and send to her, and of course she said she didn't care!

Now, it seems obvious to me what happened, especially after what happened in the first incident several years ago. I have to wonder if she just occasionally needs drama when things are too stable and 'boring' but I'm not going to apologize for something I didn't even do.

We have always had each other's phones open and available to each other, but if I change my login she will just claim that's more evidence that I'm trying to hide something.

It's maddening...