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Author Topic: BPD's grieving the relationship in reverse  (Read 11468 times)
cozmo

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« on: September 04, 2013, 03:55:40 PM »

I've been told that BPD's grieve the relationship 'in reverse' to us non's?

I take it this means that while we grieve straight away, they do not, but maybe do later down the road? That's just a guess so excuse me if I'm on totally the wrong track.

Can someone please explain this grieving in reverse that they're supposed to do?



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snappafcw
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 04:12:48 PM »

I think you may have touched on something there... .

My ExBPDgf left her ex boyfriend and started dating me. We were aquaintences 2 years prior to dating. I'm not a homewrecker and I never interfered in her relationship ever but she gave me the whole spill about how her boyfriend was abusive and jealous etc and I bought into it. She eventually left him and almost started to date me straight away in actual fact I was the one who tried to take it a little slower. Eventually though I fell in love... .

Anyway fast forward six months down the line and just before our breakup she would say... . "I wish i had time to grieve. Although my ex was horrible to me for years I never had a chance to cope"

I'm like wow really? After practically saying I am a dream come true she devalues me and then says this? I guess its a part of the guilt they have. I would be surprised if they recycled after she left me... .
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cozmo

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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2013, 04:22:05 PM »

Snappafcw,

You 'would', or 'wouldn't' be surprised?

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cozmo

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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2013, 04:33:35 PM »

You kind of saying they're too 'loved up' with new partner to grieve old relationship now. But when new relationship excitement wears off they then look back & grieve what they had before?

Guess that would be kind of like grieving a relationship in reverse?

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snappafcw
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2013, 05:25:59 PM »

wouldn't... . Guess that further proves she never loved me afterall.
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cozmo

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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2013, 05:33:47 PM »

wouldn't... . Guess that further proves she never loved me afterall.

Well when next relationship fails she'll grieve what she had with you. = recycle attempt!

I'm think I'm getting to understand how this nonsense unfolds now.



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Aussie0zborn
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2013, 05:39:41 PM »

Interesting concept. Perhaps it's the start of the devaluation process?

Mine "grieved" many past relationships in that way, but never the husband before me - he was, is and always will be painted black as I will be.

No she never loved you after all... . by immediately jumping into a new relationship with you she was able to temprarily block the "pain" she endured in that relationship. The next guy is simply a vehcicle to make themselves feel better about themselves. You could have been anybody. Grieving would mean they would have to stop and have a good look at themselves.
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Scout99
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2013, 05:56:55 PM »

I believe there is a lot of truth to this, whether calling it grieving in reverse of something else... .

But since a lot of their behaviors stem from immediate reaction to feelings as opposed to maybe feeling, then thinking and then choosing to act, they just feel and immediately react... . And don't really have any thought of what the eventual consequence might be... .

I know my ex BPD bf felt a lot of grief about his ex girlfriend when we met and also at times during our relationship. He likes to write and one time he showed me a short passage that he had written about their break up that to me actually spoke a lot about what sometimes goes on in his mind. Especially at times when his so to speak "abandoned inner child" surfaces and reveals his vulnerability... .

His r/s with his ex broke because he was cheating on her. I only know of one time, but there may very well have been several... .

I don't remember exactly the wording but it was something along these lines:

"You and I had it all. We were walking along the forrest path holding hands and the sun was shining on us keeping us warm. And you smiled. And your smile filled me with with everything I had ever wanted. But then I fell, and bounced off the path. And I got entangled in the bushes and got myself lost in the darkness of the woods. Couldn't find my way home in the dark. But when I finally found my way back to the path, and I was looking for you - you were no longer there. I could see you way up ahead. I tried to call your name and I waved with my hand for you to see me, but you just kept walking. You didn't look back... . "

He also at times when he felt depressed about other things, he could recall his old relationship and said he still sometimes missed what they had. And that he still grieved it at times. He felt guilt and shame for not having been there for her when she needed it... .

It is my belief that he really wanted to be that guy who is there for his partner. But there is always something about himself that gets in the way... . And then he just can't figure out how to be able to do both things at the same time... . Again, the ability to select among his feelings and choose to think before he reacts debilitated him. And I think that is so for many pw this disorder... . They want to, but just can't... .

And there is a lot of sadness in that alone... .

On the other hand, he could also sort of use this in a way victimization of himself to gain support and comfort from me at times when he perhaps felt he needed to be there for me but couldn't... . Then this would suddenly be the reason for it... . Which from an objective is not really relevant, since that relationship was long gone already when he and I met... . So in a way he sort of knew what he needed to learn... . But again doing it is another story... .

I am sure he says some things like this about our relationship too... . He has even said so to me, how he feels he wanted adm wants to be there for me, but knows he can't... . Much of the reason we are broken up is because he is terrified he will loose me the same way. And feels somehow that if he doesn't commit to the relationship fully but tries to keep me in his life somehow anyway that will lessen the risk so to speak... .

Again... . Much of the disorder is about wanting to be a certain way or do things in a certain way, but then always reaching the conclusion that he can't... .

Don't know if that makes any sense... . But in a way it at least gives a little glimpse into how things often does linger with them for long after it actually happens... . And that grief is a big part of their existence as a whole... . At least for many of them... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

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cozmo

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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2013, 06:04:17 PM »

Aussie,

I do believe they love, more extreme than us too. They idolize us!

But they don't miss us or grieve the relationship with us because the immediate replacement bring fresh excitement. All of which is a nice, fun distraction from realizing what they've lost with us, what they particularly miss about us etc.

We ruminate & miss them straight away & grieve. They're maybe too bust with the fresh new exciting replacement at that point. BUT, when that freshness & excitement wears off, then they start their ruminating about us & start to miss us. I figure that explains the later recycle attempts and the seemingly sincere emotions at the time. It's like they're genuinely feeling what we felt when we were doing our ruminating & grieving.

Maybe it's genuine, but badly miss timed?

I'm quite new to reading about BPD so could equally be very very wrong!

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Aussie0zborn
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2013, 06:40:00 PM »

I dont think you're wrong at all and it seems you already have a good grasp of it. Each situation is a variation of the same script and each person is different however the same common themes appear.

Are you OK with the break-up?
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2013, 07:18:25 PM »

Grieve in reverse?... . Yes. There are many posts on here(mostly older ones that touch on that subject)... .

The way you, me, and everyone else(Nons) are grieving our respective relationships... .

The pwBPD grieve the opposite way.

We miss them in aftermath... . That lessens as time progresses.

We begin to self reflect... . Heal. Forgive.

They do not miss us in aftermath... . at least not initially.

They portray a happy mask to outside world.

This lasts x amount of time.

As time progresses... . They begin to miss us.

They are not self reflecting(no sense of self to reflect on)... .

They are not healing... .

They know whether they admit to or not that on some level... . they messed up.

This missing us intensifies.

That is when they will begin to reach out(whether they are with someone else or not)... .

They know what they left behind... .

That is when that text/call comes in... .

I miss you. And what not.

This is what my exUBPDgf exhibited after she left me first time.

I saw it in her social media(time period where she left me) how she began to miss me... . After I let her back into my life and social media.

I went back through her old postings, the progression was subtle at first... . But intensified as time went on... . Until she re-engaged me.

Then I saw the exact thing with devaluation. Saw how that unfolded through her social media too.

Stay NC.

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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2013, 07:20:08 PM »

I think my xBPDbf is grieving the relationship. Differently than I am. I think it's more of how he is lonely and jealous than actually missing "me". But he's grieving it in his way.
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cozmo

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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2013, 07:50:31 PM »

Aussie,

I'm coping ok with the break up... Thank you for asking.

Seven weeks since we parted (3 year relationship) & I knew nothing of BPD till just four weeks ago.

We have split up before & I've been the usual jilted man trying to get her back. It never worked & always pushed her further away. I've realized that looking desperate = looking very unattractive!

A relationship councilor friend of mine always says "looking comfortable with a break up looks strong & strength is attractive".

I'm not going to contact my ex with my new found knowledge of the condition I think she suffers from.

I'm just going to sit back, wait for the new guy to fall from grace, and await the time she contacts me.

I know some don't want their ex's back, but I actually do! I know I can always walk away if I get to my limit & I also know my learning of her condition has made me more compassionate & taught me to not take the acting out to heart. If I can help her & support her going into therapy I will. If I can't then I'll come to the line, and I'll walk without looking back.

But I know I must wait this new guys turn out & see what the weather brings in! I've read that problems usually start within 3 months & often reaching out occurs within 6 months (sooner if replacement relationship doesn't make it that far).


That's my theory anyway, and I may have it all wrong.

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confusedhubby
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2013, 09:31:19 PM »

I don't think grieve is the right word When a pwBPD leaves a relationship and starts the idealization process all over again, it's all about them avoiding the hurt and destruction they have caused there ex. They have been demonizing the ex for a while and when they finally make there move he is already black and they are justifycing there actions to themselves by painting him black.

Later on when the relationship with the new guy falls apart the pwBPD does not grieve there ex. rather they begin to have feelings of abandonment. So they naturally fall back and the comforting feelings of there last ex and typically recycle. Remember they are incapable of self criticism or seeing the harm they have cause.  It's all about them feeling good about themselves and denying the truth of there selfish actions.

I strongly believe that the driving force of whether they recycle or not depends on the emotional attachment they had with there ex. If it was a short term relationship with little validation then they don't. If there were deep bonds and relationship was long term, then they are almost certain to recycle.

Finally, the time frame it takes with the new guy is dependent on a plethora of factors. For example if the BPD  has substance abuse problems and the new guy is an enabler then the relationship may be longer term. The same can be true if she is financially giving to him (meaning he is financially dependent on her) in which case he may be more inclined to validate her feelings and put up with more of her BS longer. But make no mistake there is a time in the not too distant future where it will fall apart and she will recycle


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bpdspell
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2013, 10:09:45 PM »

I think there are some liberties being taken with the word "grieving".

BPD's don't grieve; they repress.  Grieving requires an ownership of good and bad feelings; in essence a reflection of some sort. Grieving involves accountability for the good and not so good happenings of what is paining us. If they were able to grieve they'd be able to reflect, learn lessons and apply to new situations. Instead they are trapped in an emotionally stunted cycle of sadness, rage, shame and abandonment pain. They repress this pain and wear the mask of normalcy by mirroring and idealizing new supply but the mask cannot be worn for long because all relationships evolve to require intimacy, trust and vulnerability: non of which a person with BPD can sustain due to their inability to sustain healthy detachment.

Idealize, Devalue, Discard. Rinse, Wash, Repeat.

When you have the capacity to grieve you're inclined to not make the same mistakes over and over again. Because grieving requires the insight to look within. But when you're repressed your liable to operate out of delusion, denial, unlearned lessons, deep insecurities, and praying that this time around that things will have a different outcome. Unfortunately BPD love is a band-aid script that always has the same familiar outcome.

Can they miss us? Absolutely.

Do they know that they piss others off? Absolutely.

But can they feel the capacity, reach and emotional depth of how their actions impact others? Not really. That is why BPD is a mental illness and shame based attachment disorder. They don't have insight into their mental illness. How they've come to think is all they know. If they knew how to grieve they would have the ability to tap into their own self healing.

My ex put the ex before me through hell on earth. When we were together he'd often talk about how bad things turned out between them but in truth he carried a lot of shame from the way he treated her. He knew she hated him and this triggered intense shame for him. In retrospect he knew that his actions towards her weren't kind or nice but his capacity to grieve was essentially non existent. The shame and the self-hate is what makes them feel worthless and empty.  The shame is what they try to drown out in drugs, alcohol, sex addiction, and suicide attempts. Missing us is only a piece of the sad story.

Spell
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confusedhubby
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2013, 11:10:19 PM »

To BPDspell.

Very well put and insightful. Thank you for sharing.

I was wondering if you had any thoughts whether during this repetitive cycle, the  pwBPD knows it's going to turn out miserably with the new person? IF they have done it enough times they certainly must have an idea. Or are they so drink with euphoria in the o\idealization stage hat they just are into the now and excitement of it.
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Emelie Emelie
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2013, 11:14:00 PM »

Mine knew he would have the same problems in future relationships.  Although I don't think he is aware of the "devalue/discard" piece of it.  His concerns were about his anger issues.  That they "always come out". 
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 02:56:34 AM »

I think there are some liberties being taken with the word "grieving".

BPD's don't grieve; they repress.  Grieving requires an ownership of good and bad feelings; in essence a reflection of some sort. Grieving involves accountability for the good and not so good happenings of what is paining us. If they were able to grieve they'd be able to reflect, learn lessons and apply to new situations. Instead they are trapped in an emotionally stunted cycle of sadness, rage, shame and abandonment pain. They repress this pain and wear the mask of normalcy by mirroring and idealizing new supply but the mask cannot be worn for long because all relationships evolve to require intimacy, trust and vulnerability: non of which a person with BPD can sustain due to their inability to sustain healthy detachment.

Idealize, Devalue, Discard. Rinse, Wash, Repeat.

When you have the capacity to grieve you're inclined to not make the same mistakes over and over again. Because grieving requires the insight to look within. But when you're repressed your liable to operate out of delusion, denial, unlearned lessons, deep insecurities, and praying that this time around that things will have a different outcome. Unfortunately BPD love is a band-aid script that always has the same familiar outcome.

Can they miss us? Absolutely.

Do they know that they piss others off? Absolutely.

But can they feel the capacity, reach and emotional depth of how their actions impact others? Not really. That is why BPD is a mental illness and shame based attachment disorder. They don't have insight into their mental illness. How they've come to think is all they know. If they knew how to grieve they would have the ability to tap into their own self healing.

My ex put the ex before me through hell on earth. When we were together he'd often talk about how bad things turned out between them but in truth he carried a lot of shame from the way he treated her. He knew she hated him and this triggered intense shame for him. In retrospect he knew that his actions towards her weren't kind or nice but his capacity to grieve was essentially non existent. The shame and the self-hate is what makes them feel worthless and empty.  The shame is what they try to drown out in drugs, alcohol, sex addiction, and suicide attempts. Missing us is only a piece of the sad story.

Spell

I would have to kindly disagree with you here on a few things... .

First of all I think it is important for our own healing processes to understand that a disorder is not either an illness or a brain damage of some sort... . It is a disorder and the cluster B diagnoses have their own category for that specific reason. It cannot be treated or cured with any form of medication or operation. But is the result of learned core behaviors due to early childhood trauma which in some cases is combined with inherited genetic traits of vulnerability, which not in itself create the disorder... . And which also does not constitute any form of brain damage... . That is many many normal people are also born with inherited sensitivity and or vulnerability... . (That for instance often play a role in developing behaviors of co dependency... . )

It is when the vulnerability, (inherited or otherwise achieved), creates such wounds to the developing sense of self, that it in turn makes the child develop disordered coping strategies and dysfunctional and or destructive self beliefs that a disorder is formed and developed. In essence borderline disorder consists of destructive and dysfunctional self beliefs that in turn creates a disordered way of handling life that in turn becomes crippling to the person in interelational situations... .

Excerpt
BPD's don't grieve; they repress.  Grieving requires an ownership of good and bad feelings; in essence a reflection of some sort. Grieving involves accountability for the good and not so good happenings of what is paining us. If they were able to grieve they'd be able to reflect, learn lessons and apply to new situations.

My interpretation of grieve is that it is for more or less all human beings a pretty selfish process... . We mourn the loss of something we wanted. For us non's we mourn and grieve the loss of them idealizing us for instance. And that they did not turn out to be who we thought they were and wanted them to be. We also feel abandoned and lonely and in essence we feel sorry for ourselves too, just they way they do... .

The difference as I see it can be found in how we choose to deal with our loss and our grief... . And how we heal... . That is what strategies we use to move forward... . And many of us non's don't always learn from our experiences and reflect and avoid making the same mistakes in the future either... . Many of us get stuck in the blaming of our ex BPDs for our pain... . (Which in a way can be described as us too devaluing and in the end discarding them)... .

Important also to note is that it is not always they who leave us... . If you study the threads of this forum, you will find many examples of partners also choosing to leave the relationship too... .

And many of us do also choose to jump into new relationships as fast as we can, and some of us do also "rinse and repeat" and get ourselves involved with yet another somewhat dysfunctional partner again because we stay addicted to the intensity and the passion we found in our BPD lovers... .  

I know I have pretty much repeated that very pattern several times throughout my life, since I tend to get a bit bored with partners who are more calm in their approach to love for instance... . And that is part of my pattern that I need to learn and heal from and eventually change, (if I can)... .

And such processes take a lot of time and effort to change... . Since all change pretty much is painful to us humans... . Heck... . Most of us have a hard time just quitting to eat too much sugar or change a smoking pattern just to name a few examples... . In a way we too often end up repressing a lot of what we experienced with our BPD loved ones... .

Disorder wise the differences lie in our ability to sustain feelings, and their inability thereof... . our differences also consist in that their coping strategies have through time become disordered due to the trauma they have endured in their childhood... . But we often have somewhat dysfunctional coping strategies too... . Co dependency is one... .

This is really a very important topic and one we can learn a lot from and that can help us also in our respective healing processes!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Best Wishes

Scout99
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Aussie0zborn
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 04:06:15 AM »

Cozmo : good to see you're focused. While you're waiting on the sidelines you might have some time to read up on coping with a pwBPD seeing as you plan to get back with her when she's done with the next guy.

I was oblivious to BPD and believed that I was at fault. This means I didn't help her cope as well as I could have.  Once I read up on it and saw the terminology I saw she was already using this terminology to describe me in her attacks. If you are across all the coping techniques you will stand a better chance than I did. Good luck to you .
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jippolito1969

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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 05:58:51 AM »

Wow, it really helps me to read these posts. I never thought of it this way, grieving in reverse. My ex and I split in mid-February, but attempted to re-kindle a few times after that. In early June, she decided to cut me off, and gave me the silent treatment for about a month. She then reconnected with me briefly, but this did not go well. We had a day or two of good communication and then we hit another landmind. In early July she met someone else, who she is now completely involved with. About two weeks ago, she re-connected with me, after asking me to not contact her (which I respected), attempted to re-kindle some kind of a connection (telling me she loves and misses me, showing remorse, telling me she was sorry, etc.,) but then we hit another landmind. Bare in mind, she was still seeing this other person throughout all of this. At first she told me they were just "seeing," eachother, nothing serious, but then she proceeded in a fit of anger to tell me she is "falling," in love with this person, that they treat her so much better than I ever did, and that she respects this person in ways she could never respect me, etc., etc., Shortly after this conversation, I received another "cease and desist," email from her (most likely written by her and this new person). Like I did the first time, I have since respected her request and can actually see for myself now how NC does help. It's been over two weeks since I have heard from her, and I am slowly starting to heal in ways I could not when we talked now and then. To further assure NC, I have since changed my cell phone number, asked my roommate to tell her I am unavilable should she call our house phone and have filtered her email. In many respects, I know that if she decids to contact me, she will find a way to get through to me, even if that means writing a letter, or emailing me from another email address I don't know, but I am prepared to ignore it. I simply want to move on with my life and while it is a daily struggle, because I am grieving and have been since the breakup 6 months ago, deep down I know this relationship will never be a healthy onea and my needs will never be addressed or met by her.Howver, knowing she is with this new person, does hurt and often times I wonder will she be different with them? Logically, I know this is not possible, but the idea of it makes me sick. I gave this woman everything I had to give, so much so, I practically lost myself in the process. Now, she is moving on, with someone else, like it's no big deal, and I am left mourning. On the flip side, I would rather go through this grief now, than later, because down the line I do home to find a healthy relationshp and want to be able to open my heart to someone new if the opportunity comes my way.
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 07:03:54 AM »

It is a very interesting topic and I think this is what I felt with my ex uBPD friend.  He was very open with me (more I like you'd be with a counselor or a therapist, probably because of my professional background and also probably knowing that I would never interfere in his life or blame him because of the situation we were in and my status). 

I agree with BPDspell it is not about grieving in the sense we understand, with certain stages, but rather in a reverse way of detachment and repressing.

Throughout the history of his personal relationships there was the same pattern - he would be grieving for losing his exes after jumping into a relationship with someone/many. No matter who initiated a break-up, at the end it was the feeling of shame, self-loathing, dysphoria that forced him to contact his exes.  He himself explained it this way "I loved my ex before and was entitled to love her even after the relationship was over. I was feeling guilty. I needed to know that she did not hate me". So most of the contact was initiated because of the feeling of shame and self-loathing for not being a strong man, for being weak.  It was never about bringing them back and committing fully, but rather making them not to hate him. But the problem was that he had a weak sense of boundaries -  he always tell all of them (me included) that he loved them and missed.  He was a highly functioning, who worked in the academia, so I understand the reasons he rarely painted black someone for a long time, rather than in a moment when any of his exes (or me) were not reacting the way he wanted.

As with me, while he was dating his ex - he made her overly jealous because he attempted numerous times to contact the woman he dated before, met her secretly and had a sex-talk that his current (now ex gf) found out.  This is why his ex-girlfriend thought that he is in love with his ex, which he couldn't fully understand.  Then he started an affair with me... . Long story short - after his ex found out about it - he started "grieving" about her in the same way he did before - without wanting to bring her back, but wanting her not to hate him and proclaiming his love.  Since he had a sex addiction and drinking problems - it was easy for him to cross the boundaries and engage in a sex-talk with his exes or with me... . I think this way he also was able to receive the confirmation that he is not so horrible and feel the needed validation.
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 07:39:01 AM »

cosmo  

I don't know about the "reverse" part but from my experience it seems that if our ex's have a new partner lined up before they break up with us the sorrow won't be there initially.  I know my ex didn't s how any signs of "grieving" when he broke up with me, but I don't know if this is even the right word.  He eventually was in pain but it was because of what he didn't have instead of what he had lost.  He didn't have the comfort he needed to sooth himself and I would tend to call this depression.

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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 09:37:46 AM »

Aussie,

I'm coping ok with the break up... Thank you for asking.

Seven weeks since we parted (3 year relationship) & I knew nothing of BPD till just four weeks ago.

We have split up before & I've been the usual jilted man trying to get her back. It never worked & always pushed her further away. I've realized that looking desperate = looking very unattractive!

A relationship councilor friend of mine always says "looking comfortable with a break up looks strong & strength is attractive".

I'm not going to contact my ex with my new found knowledge of the condition I think she suffers from.

I'm just going to sit back, wait for the new guy to fall from grace, and await the time she contacts me.

I know some don't want their ex's back, but I actually do! I know I can always walk away if I get to my limit & I also know my learning of her condition has made me more compassionate & taught me to not take the acting out to heart. If I can help her & support her going into therapy I will. If I can't then I'll come to the line, and I'll walk without looking back.

But I know I must wait this new guys turn out & see what the weather brings in! I've read that problems usually start within 3 months & often reaching out occurs within 6 months (sooner if replacement relationship doesn't make it that far).


That's my theory anyway, and I may have it all wrong.

I really like this philosophy of being open to their return.  It keeps you empathetic and compassionate toward them.
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 11:43:40 AM »

Detroit,

I might be being optimistic waiting for her to return?

The way I'm looking at it, the break gives me time to read & learn (about both of us), and gives me a breather & chance to catch up on other things.

I figure chasing her will push her towards new white knight & be counterproductive. So I'm just doin my thang, retreating & waiting it out. No big scenes, no big reactions & not really showing any emotion either way. Basically trying to look cool with her choice, without being cold!

I might be doing some right, some wrong, or even all wrong? Guess time will tell. Though I'm certain she'll be as bad or worse with new guy. He likes to keep in touch with his ex's so that will strain things a bit.

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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 01:19:01 PM »

Detroit,

I might be being optimistic waiting for her to return?

The way I'm looking at it, the break gives me time to read & learn (about both of us), and gives me a breather & chance to catch up on other things.

I figure chasing her will push her towards new white knight & be counterproductive. So I'm just doin my thang, retreating & waiting it out. No big scenes, no big reactions & not really showing any emotion either way. Basically trying to look cool with her choice, without being cold!

I might be doing some right, some wrong, or even all wrong? Guess time will tell. Though I'm certain she'll be as bad or worse with new guy. He likes to keep in touch with his ex's so that will strain things a bit.

I believe it is perfectly fine to be optimistic.  I finally backed off and stopped contacting my ex and now the tables are turned and he regularly contacts me.  I think it is great that you take time to learn and heal.  This is exactly what I am doing. 

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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2013, 01:26:22 PM »

cozmo and DetroitDame,

If you aren't trying to leave and detach then why are you posting on this board 

No contact isn't intended to turn the tables; it's designed as a protection against abuse and an opportunity for us to heal.  Do you think that waiting for them to contact you again is healing?

tailspin
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2013, 02:03:16 PM »

Cozmo,

You may be correct. From my own experience, My BPDex told me plenty of times that she loved me and I was the best guy to her. 8 months in and she quickly states "this is all a mistake!"

She often, well weekly you could say, talk about her ex boyfriends. I now see this as a pressurized gas tank that needs to be evacuated of air. This air, or guilt, shame or simply residual feelings that they have not gotten over, builds up and they JUST need to talk about it. Often in the most irrational ways without boundaries. Thats my 2 cents.
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2013, 02:13:14 PM »

cozmo and DetroitDame,

If you aren't trying to leave and detach then why are you posting on this board 

No contact isn't intended to turn the tables; it's designed as a protection against abuse and an opportunity for us to heal.  Do you think that waiting for them to contact you again is healing?

tailspin

At no point did I indicate or insinuate that no contact was intended to turn the tables.  I simply indicated it was what happened in my case.

My relationship has been over for over 2 years and I am continuing my detachment and healing.  My comment was to indicate the level of progress I have made in this time.

I believe it is fine to end a relationship and still leave open the possibility to reconnect should things change.  This is exactly what I indicated in my comment.
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2013, 03:05:14 PM »

Tailspin,

My relationship is over, she is with someone else! I'm grieving my relationship! I hope all this qualifies for commenting on the leaving board? And a thread about BPD's grieving after the relationship ended?

I've mentioned that I'm taking this time to learn about BPD & myself & my own issues. I've also mentioned that I'm open to be approached by my ex in the future with a view to looking at our relationship again & how to improve it. None the less, I'm recently out of my relationship so guessed the leaving board is where I belong. I can't really post on the 'staying' or 'undecided boards', because there I am not currently in a relationship to improve or decide about.

If you feel I'm in the wrong place please let me know where I should post.



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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2013, 03:08:19 PM »

And NC is about leaving her alone while she's got me all black because anything else is just hurtful contact. I'm not using it to turn the tables, I'm using it to protect myself & when she's ready to be pleasant she'll probably break NC. Then I'll take it from there. In the mean time NC is for me to take time & space to learn & heal. I think that's an appropriate use of NC & by no means playing games with anyone.



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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2013, 03:16:30 PM »

Well, from the posts I have read, it appears that once this "grieving in reverse" starts to happen the pwBPD will definitely break the NC.  I want to encourage our members to remain strong should the pwBPD attempt to recycle.  Also, should members decide to reconcile, I recommend they lay some ground rules to protect themselves from repeated hurt and pain. 
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2013, 04:06:42 PM »

Well, from the posts I have read, it appears that once this "grieving in reverse" starts to happen the pwBPD will definitely break the NC. Also, should members decide to reconcile, I recommend they lay some ground rules to protect themselves from repeated hurt and pain.  

Just like all people act and think the same, I think we have to be careful to avoid believing all pwBPD act and think the same. Yes, there is a chance that our BPDexes may try to contact us, but not all contact from them is a recycling attempt. Like it's been mentioned earlier, sometimes they just want to know that you don't hate them and that's the end. Read the boards and you'll find many stories about a BPDex texting, "hope you are ok/i love you/miss you" (or some variation) and after the non replies, then it's silence again. Or sometimes the pwBPD does it and gets back together with the non. None of us have a crystal ball to tell the future.

The only "ground rule" that will protect the non from repeated hurt and pain is to realize the pwBPD is most likely going to repeat the same behavior as they did previously during the first time around. If you go into a recycle realizing they will beat you up, lie, and cheat, and you are 100% okay with that, then you won't be hurt. If this is the case, you would seem like either a masochist or sociopathic user to me tho.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

If anybody here is thinking their BPDex is going to "change", then I urge you to look at the logo at the very top left of the screen that says "bpdfamily.com". Yes, everybody can change, but to believe that a pwBPD who has lived their entire life using these dysfunctional coping strategies will be "normal" the next time you reconnect is more wishful thinking than facing the facts. The fact is that a pwBPD has a very long and hard road in front of them to change their ingrained responses and behaviors. It's like spending your whole life as a lefty and then suddenly trying to become a righty, it just isn't going to happen overnight, and you probably have very little desire to change that anyhow because you've lived your entire life as a lefty and don't see anything wrong with that... .

Just because the pwBPD feels bad later doesn't mean we have to acknowledge it much less reconnect with them. Be kind to yourself and spend time on your own well being. When we spend a lot of time ruminating about somebody else, it takes away the time and energy we need to be spending on ourselves.  
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2013, 07:19:32 AM »

Well, from the posts I have read, it appears that once this "grieving in reverse" starts to happen the pwBPD will definitely break the NC. Also, should members decide to reconcile, I recommend they lay some ground rules to protect themselves from repeated hurt and pain.  

Just like all people act and think the same, I think we have to be careful to avoid believing all pwBPD act and think the same. Yes, there is a chance that our BPDexes may try to contact us, but not all contact from them is a recycling attempt. Like it's been mentioned earlier, sometimes they just want to know that you don't hate them and that's the end. Read the boards and you'll find many stories about a BPDex texting, "hope you are ok/i love you/miss you" (or some variation) and after the non replies, then it's silence again. Or sometimes the pwBPD does it and gets back together with the non. None of us have a crystal ball to tell the future.

The only "ground rule" that will protect the non from repeated hurt and pain is to realize the pwBPD is most likely going to repeat the same behavior as they did previously during the first time around. If you go into a recycle realizing they will beat you up, lie, and cheat, and you are 100% okay with that, then you won't be hurt. If this is the case, you would seem like either a masochist or sociopathic user to me tho.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

If anybody here is thinking their BPDex is going to "change", then I urge you to look at the logo at the very top left of the screen that says "bpdfamily.com". Yes, everybody can change, but to believe that a pwBPD who has lived their entire life using these dysfunctional coping strategies will be "normal" the next time you reconnect is more wishful thinking than facing the facts. The fact is that a pwBPD has a very long and hard road in front of them to change their ingrained responses and behaviors. It's like spending your whole life as a lefty and then suddenly trying to become a righty, it just isn't going to happen overnight, and you probably have very little desire to change that anyhow because you've lived your entire life as a lefty and don't see anything wrong with that... .

Just because the pwBPD feels bad later doesn't mean we have to acknowledge it much less reconnect with them. Be kind to yourself and spend time on your own well being. When we spend a lot of time ruminating about somebody else, it takes away the time and energy we need to be spending on ourselves.  

Great advice, thanks!

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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2014, 05:46:58 AM »

I don't think grieve is the right word When a pwBPD leaves a relationship and starts the idealization process all over again, it's all about them avoiding the hurt and destruction they have caused there ex. They have been demonizing the ex for a while and when they finally make there move he is already black and they are justifycing there actions to themselves by painting him black.

Later on when the relationship with the new guy falls apart the pwBPD does not grieve there ex. rather they begin to have feelings of abandonment. So they naturally fall back and the comforting feelings of there last ex and typically recycle. Remember they are incapable of self criticism or seeing the harm they have cause.  It's all about them feeling good about themselves and denying the truth of there selfish actions.

I strongly believe that the driving force of whether they recycle or not depends on the emotional attachment they had with there ex. If it was a short term relationship with little validation then they don't. If there were deep bonds and relationship was long term, then they are almost certain to recycle.

Finally, the time frame it takes with the new guy is dependent on a plethora of factors. For example if the BPD  has substance abuse problems and the new guy is an enabler then the relationship may be longer term. The same can be true if she is financially giving to him (meaning he is financially dependent on her) in which case he may be more inclined to validate her feelings and put up with more of her BS longer. But make no mistake there is a time in the not too distant future where it will fall apart and she will recycle

Very interesting comments, I am 7 months out of a 20 month relationship - apart from one horrible message around 5 months ago I have heard absolutely nothing, although I am working through the trauma very well, her final extinction burst indicated that she hated me more than anything ever before in her life, therefore I feel the chances of a reach out are virtually non existent. Has anyone ever been completely discarded only to get a reconnection out of the blue sometime down the line? One thing is certain with mine, she still talked about exes from many years ago in a bad way but to my knowledge had never reached out to them.
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2014, 08:47:15 AM »

I think confusedhubby is right.

Not all BPDs are the same but thinking of them grieving us in way that we either understand or would do ourselves is flawed.

It's a case of us trying to make sense of their behaviour and our relationships with them through the lens of our own logic and feelings.

BPD is profound disorder - you cannot make sense of it.

That's one of the things that kept many of us in these relationships for so long.

Wishful thinking that if we could unlock the puzzle we could make things right.

It's a fantasy. The belief that someone with BPD can think or feel like us is not just futile - it keeps you attached.

I think it's closer to the truth to say that BPDs don't like the idea that we have detached because it's triggers feelings of abandonment and shame

And when they're vulnerable and their relationship with the replacement breaks down they experience intense feelings of abandonment and shame.

So they look for an alternative source of a validation etc and try to reconnect.

Depending on their circumstances these recycles are generally brief, a momentary holding operation until a better and fresh source of supply is available.

Ultimately when you close all the doors and switch off the music it's about us and our choices.

It always was

And if deep in your heart you're still thinking or hoping for a recycle then you haven't really detached and you're vulnerable.

Why would you want someone who treated you with cruelty and contempt, someone who did you real harm back in your life?

If you saw a close friend inviting someone who abused them back into their lives what would you say to them?

The real challenge is to detach enough to focus on yourself. Get help to identify the issues that drew you and kept you in a relationship that was so destructive and unhealthy.

Begin to tackle them

If you do that work you'll lose the secret yearning to reconnect to something which was never real and never what you believed or hope it could be.

Then if and when they try to get back in touch you have the healthy self awareness to reject or ignore them.

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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2014, 09:30:36 AM »

jippolito1969; I second your post.  You almost mirror exactly where I am.  Though it hurts to know he is with someone else and seemingly happy and has no remorse or sadness for our demise, I choose to grieve now and NOT throw myself into another relationship anytime soon.

I too worry that somehow, this new person in his life will be the "ticket", will be all that I was not, and they will ride happily into the sunset.  That is a haunting thought, goven, like you, I never tried harder with anyone else, nor have I ever given unconditionally of myself like I did with this person, and in the end, it STILL wasn't good enough... he jumped ship, changed train cars, etc.

Make the self reflection a little painful, right?  I know I sometime WISH I could be more like him and just throw myself mind, body and soul into another to take MY mind off how badly this hurts.  But, I am no where near ready for anything with anyone.  And that isn't me anyway, damn it! !

I too, hope one day I can work through this and meet someone with whom I can give all that I did in this relationship, and it will not only be appreciated, but reciprocated, IMAGINE THAT!  What a concept!
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2014, 02:51:59 PM »

I too worry that somehow, this new person in his life will be the "ticket", will be all that I was not, and they will ride happily into the sunset.  That is a haunting thought, goven, like you, I never tried harder with anyone else, nor have I ever given unconditionally of myself like I did with this person, and in the end, it STILL wasn't good enough... he jumped ship, changed train cars, etc.

Make the self reflection a little painful, right?  I know I sometime WISH I could be more like him and just throw myself mind, body and soul into another to take MY mind off how badly this hurts.  But, I am no where near ready for anything with anyone.  And that isn't me anyway, damn it! !

I too, hope one day I can work through this and meet someone with whom I can give all that I did in this relationship, and it will not only be appreciated, but reciprocated, IMAGINE THAT!  What a concept!

This is exactly how I feel.  It's holding me back and stopping me from getting over my exBPDh.  I just don't feel 'good enough' for anyone now.  He was certainly not an 'incredible catch' and even he didn't stay with me!  That has put me off a new relationship altogether.
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2014, 05:33:26 PM »

It's a delayed reaction to loss.  My ex quickly found a replacement to avoid dealing with his feelings. I agree that when things start to fall apart in the new r/s, they think about the loss of former partner(s) but it's more about what they lost, and is less about the person that they lost.  It seems to be rooted in what that former partner provided them and how well their needs were met by that former partner. 

My ex hadn't detached from any of his former partners.  Most of his curiosity revolved around what they were doing and whether they were happier without him.  His former partners were happier without him, and he resented that.  They had moved on developing healthy relationships, having children, and forming successful careers.  He was competitive with them even though he was no longer in their lives.  He seemed to truly wish that his former partners weren't doing well without him.   

I'm pretty sure that my ex attempted to recycle former partners but his efforts were unsuccessful. His former partners don't seem to want to go back to him.  He has too much shame after an r/s to actively pursue a former partner.  It's much easier for him to move on to a new target where he can enjoy the "high" of a new r/s and get the "full" validation he craves from a new partner. 
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2014, 06:39:29 PM »

I can tell you from my experience that this has certainly been the case. After what she did to me, I went full NC - cold turkey way. I never did such a thing before, and I never would. But the experience left me no other option.

I can tell she felt the day before I went NC that I am, in fact, breaking it off. It's because she kept repeating after me the things I was saying in a "Are you telling me you are leaving me?" way. Her grieving the relationship did not start immediately. She first thought that I was just taking my time and space. Then she started getting worried, but kept her act together in the communication, which was not too difficult as it was not face-to-face. When she knew for sure I was sticking with NC, she freaked out... . Then she realized that I am not coming back, and told me that she is aware of that. But while she accepted the fault at beginning, she did move it into the "together" zone, and told me she'll leave me alone, but she hated my NC. She openly recognized my strength behind my decision because she did know how much I love her.

Well, she broke the promise and contacted me again when she found out that I was recovering and trying to move on (which I really didn't.) There was gas-lighting (questioning my love) and devaluation (labeling me as cruel) involved. I will most likely hear from her again as she is now openly desperate about recycling.

So, as you see, they do grieve the relationship backwards. And especially if they see that you are a strong and decisive person. It's a trigger for them, it seems, because they just can't do that. What I did (going full NC cold-turkey) would make a normal person just give up, grieve it right away for a while and forget me. Well, a normal person would not do what she did, in the first place, but that's another story. Not her, or shall I say not them... . They grieve when you make yourself unavailable to them. This is not strictly limited to pwBPD. All people with any kind of emotional damage or under-development (it happens to be most symptomatic to BPD folks) obsess over unavailable people. That's the whole thing behind "girls into bad-boys" and "guys into bad-girls" thing. They grieve and freak out once you treat them like dirt... .

That's why my dexBPDgf will most likely continue to contact me, each time with stronger devaluation as her grief gets stronger (not weaker as in nons.) I sure hope not, but that seems to be more of a rule than an exception.
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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2014, 06:55:44 PM »

We have split up before & I've been the usual jilted man trying to get her back. It never worked & always pushed her further away. I've realized that looking desperate = looking very unattractive!

A relationship councilor friend of mine always says "looking comfortable with a break up looks strong & strength is attractive".

This is at the core of why they grieve the relationship backwards, especially if you are NC without exception. They see it as sign of incredible strength (my dexBPDgf actually told me this in her desperate attempts to get me to talk to her). It's because they cannot fathom that strength. PwBPD simply don't have emotional capacity to be that strong. Splitting you black is only possible if they have an immediate alternative. If they don't, they'll keep pestering you, without exception. It's what's been going with my ex. After being openly in awe with my decisiveness around my NC and promising to leave me alone, she's back at the hint of me recovering and her perception that I am trying to move on. She made it sound as if she can't stand the idea that I am over her, questioning whether I loved her at all... . It's all backwards. An emotinally healthy person would (a) not do what she did and (b) move on after they saw that I don't want to talk... . Her? She continues with devaluation and trying to find reasons to hate me, through labeling and gas-lighting... . It's all a facade for what is really going on in her mind: she is only now grieving and falling in "love" with me. I say "love" because she does not even understand what that is. It's a sad state of mind, and it breaks my heart because I do love her. Her questioning that is stomping on my heart, but it's not really her. It's her condition. And with BPD, unfortunately, her condition is her... .

The moral of the story is that for our sanity, full NC and being strongly persistent in it will give you what you always wanted: their love, or at least what they think of as love. I will never respond to her again nor will recycle. I feel sorry for her feelings now as I would give everything up for her, if she only knew how to accept that. But, it is important that she learns a lesson in grief. The sad thing is that once a replacement lines up (if at all any time soon, because although she is pretty, she is not attractive), she will start the whole vicious cycle again... .
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2014, 07:12:35 PM »

I think we should be careful here to giving anyone false hope. Including myself - I'm only on the detachment board, because I am FORCED to detach (she broke up with me, and I still want her back).

My ex didn't recycle her previous BFs. So while it may be true, that some return, other may not. I am pretty sure, that I will NEVER hear from my ex again.
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« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2014, 07:20:37 PM »

@guilthanted

I agree with you here.  Their behavior can be predictable at times and so unpredictable at others.

Mine told me he never goes back to ex's. He's not coming back to me. Im getting the odd nasty emails.

I've tried to make sense of them and have a fantasy going that he will come to his senses and send nice ones.  LOL

Really though, i need to shift my focus.  Sometimes I tell myself that this break and if its truly final is what is best for me.  With all that i am learning on here, i need to be more than grateful if I never hear again. I'm trying to trust this and see the blessing in disguise.  I cannot imagine what would be left of me if i ever went back and went thru this again.  There is just no more room for feeling worse than i do now.
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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2014, 10:15:51 PM »

I think we should be careful here to giving anyone false hope.

Yes.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

There was life before the pwBPD, and there's a great life ahead without them.  Learn, heal, grow.  A friend told me shortly before I left my ex that I had outgrown him.  Yes I had, and I'm determined to continue on that path.  Being with him meant spiritual death.  They suck the life right out of you. 
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2014, 05:28:46 AM »

@guilthanted

I agree with you here.  Their behavior can be predictable at times and so unpredictable at others.

Mine told me he never goes back to ex's. He's not coming back to me. Im getting the odd nasty emails.

I've tried to make sense of them and have a fantasy going that he will come to his senses and send nice ones.  LOL

Really though, i need to shift my focus.  Sometimes I tell myself that this break and if its truly final is what is best for me.  With all that i am learning on here, i need to be more than grateful if I never hear again. I'm trying to trust this and see the blessing in disguise.  I cannot imagine what would be left of me if i ever went back and went thru this again.  There is just no more room for feeling worse than i do now.

Mine said a similar thing about her ex that she returned to and is deeply in love with. With regards grieving in reverse, I do believe I witnessed it first hand.

With mine apparently the ex cheated and left, when I first started dating her she said that she was out of a relationship no one else was around etc.

Now the timeline as I best remember it:-

1.5 months in to dating the ex returned briefly and she told me that he could give her what she wanted family etc, too early in the piece for me so I walked away, she pursued me for a week and then said she wanted to be with me.

Heard nothing about the ex for a while apart from how bad he was etc.

Fast forward 8 months and all of his items he bought for her had been sold on ebay etc.

3 months later devaluation begins and the comparison Triangulation starts.

4 months later, when she was convinced I was cheating she fired warning shots indicating she never took a cheat back.

Another 1.5 months later, he reconnects on facebook as his relationship had finished, she replied saying that she was working on her relationship and to leave her alone. As I was not jealous she took it that I did not love her - huge arguement that night.

The next couple of weeks sex was withheld and comments such as my ex didn't want to touch me towards the end started surfacing.

A week later she was back with him, new life, I was stalker, abusive, she hadn't been that happy in ages, all enablers cheering her on. And my gifts being sold openly on facebook. I obviously cut contact and blocked social media etc.

So timeline indicates that she grieved this in reverse as I saw it unfold before my eyes. I doubt she will grieve what we had in reverse as I am painted far blacker than he ever was. He was painted black but I am painted really black, plus by going strong no contact I have shown that I dont care - something indicates that the ex never went full no contact even when he was in another relationship.

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« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2014, 05:39:28 AM »

I think we should be careful here to giving anyone false hope. Including myself - I'm only on the detachment board, because I am FORCED to detach (she broke up with me, and I still want her back).

My ex didn't recycle her previous BFs. So while it may be true, that some return, other may not. I am pretty sure, that I will NEVER hear from my ex again.

Sorry, I should have been very specific that I was the one that broke it off, and that has much weight on whether there is a chance of hearing back. Which is probably why she is still on my tail. I agree, every case is different and, if they broke it off they may or may not try to recycle. Either way, whoever broke it off and even if they try to recycle, I think nons set on leaving should try their hardest to detach and leave. I happen to be the one that broke it off, but it hurts the same way as if she would be the one to do it. Maybe even more because I am now the "cruel" one whose love is being questioned by her.
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2014, 05:52:25 AM »

3 months later devaluation begins and the comparison Triangulation starts.

In my case comparison started during the 3rd or 4th date! She couldn't stop talking about him and I called her out on that. To which she responded that she was simply comparing me to him to decide what is right for her as she "lacked experience." Big  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post), but I swallowed it back then, the starry-eyed idiot that I was... . If I had the mind that I have now, I'd tell her to get lost and waste her own life, which she is doing anyway. I can imagine her right now, she is doing it to another guy but I am probably the point of comparison. She isn't very successful with finding the replacement yet. I'd know by now, because she is still sending me devaluing messages even though she promised to leave me alone... .
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