She wants to be completely independent from people

[Nicco]

Hello,

this morning i got a message on my phone from my exBPDgf... .she broke our relation after 15 months... .telling me that she needs "to be selfish" and work on her self,that she doesn't want a relationship with no one anymore ("love retirement"  and she doesn't believe in us anymore (off course,after have been "the man of her life","her soulmate","i will love you forever and after" and all the "repertory"... .she USED to be a WAIF BPD,extremely depressed and needing... .not she shows that she's strong and wants to be completely independent from people... .she lives alone with her 5 years old child (she's 25) and seems fine with her "new life" (new job,new friends,new flat)

When she broke up in september i wrote her several times prayng her to change her mind... .without any result off course... .and this made me feel i'm the "needing WAIF" now... .she wrote me on fb last time on the 9th of november just to deny me my wish to have a phone conversation... .me i was not writing her already since a couple of weeks... .i'm not completely on NC since in the last weeks i go often on her fb profile to see what's going on... .but without leave traces of my activity... .she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people) and songs "against" me and about the end of our relationship (she said she's not bitter with me,why then still posting all this stuff about us if you really want to pass over?)... .i didn't displayed her last message on fb to don't show her that i'm checking what's goin on anyway even without be active on the social network,i got it by the email fb sent me... .pratically i'm disappeared... .and not ready for a total NC... .and i have no idea about what i'm doing... .i would love just to have her back in despite of everything... .and the healty part of me whispers in my head telling me i'm crazy to want her back... .but it's stronger than me... .i would pass over ALL the bad things happened and try to be together again,especially now i know many more things about her BPD... .

I don't know why she wrote me... .don't think she's thinkinbg to recycle me (for what she told,she never recycled NO ONE on her past bf,just tired with her son's father without success) and plus we live in different countires so i don't think she would tell me "i want to see you,jump on a plane and came here for a coffee!" ... .useless to say that i feel a big shame since a big part of me desires strongly to be recycled... .i'm still in the FOG too,didn't move out from the end of the relationship... .

This morning she wrote : " Good morning... .i was just thinking at you... and was a bit worried that you never replied to me... .im sorry if i'm disturbing you... .i guess that i might be the last person... .that you want to hear about... .i just hope you're fine"

I'm in panic... .don't know what to do... .especially cause in the back of my mind i'm still thinking about which behaviours i should have to make her miss me or start thinking to want me back... .i'm splitten... .what she wants REALLY?she's just REALLY worried about me or there's something else going on under? since we broke up i feel i'm the pwBPD and she's the healty one and i'm going crazy... .

In the last days i'm thinking to tell her that i know everything about her BPD (we never REALLY faced the issue,even cause i knew pratically nothing until a couple of months ago) to speak to her in a very clear and honest way about her BPD,that i want to help her and love her... she always wanted a "true love" (is what she said) then why push away someone who in despite of all her "troubles" and problems still choose to stay close to her with patience and dedition? everyone else would escape,it's a non-sense!

Did someone tried to face "them" in this way telling them everything in this way?making them facing their behaviours explaning WHY thewy act in that way?

I don't know what to do... .i'm in limbo  :'( i'm here looking at the phone like an idiot... .and scared she could try to call me... .cause i don't know if i should reply or not... .help!

[HarmKrakow]

Hello,

this morning i got a message on my phone from my exBPDgf... .she broke our relation after 15 months... .telling me that she needs "to be selfish" and work on her self,that she doesn't want a relationship with no one anymore ("love retirement"  and she doesn't believe in us anymore (off course,after have been "the man of her life","her soulmate","i will love you forever and after" and all the "repertory"... .she USED to be a WAIF BPD,extremely depressed and needing... .not she shows that she's strong and wants to be completely independent from people... .she lives alone with her 5 years old child (she's 25) and seems fine with her "new life" (new job,new friends,new flat)

When she broke up in september i wrote her several times prayng her to change her mind... .without any result off course... .and this made me feel i'm the "needing WAIF" now... .she wrote me on fb last time on the 9th of november just to deny me my wish to have a phone conversation... .me i was not writing her already since a couple of weeks... .i'm not completely on NC since in the last weeks i go often on her fb profile to see what's going on... .but without leave traces of my activity... .she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people) and songs "against" me and about the end of our relationship (she said she's not bitter with me,why then still posting all this stuff about us if you really want to pass over?)... .i didn't displayed her last message on fb to don't show her that i'm checking what's goin on anyway even without be active on the social network,i got it by the email fb sent me... .pratically i'm disappeared... .and not ready for a total NC... .and i have no idea about what i'm doing... .i would love just to have her back in despite of everything... .and the healty part of me whispers in my head telling me i'm crazy to want her back... .but it's stronger than me... .i would pass over ALL the bad things happened and try to be together again,especially now i know many more things about her BPD... .

I don't know why she wrote me... .don't think she's thinkinbg to recycle me (for what she told,she never recycled NO ONE on her past bf,just tired with her son's father without success) and plus we live in different countires so i don't think she would tell me "i want to see you,jump on a plane and came here for a coffee!" ... .useless to say that i feel a big shame since a big part of me desires strongly to be recycled... .i'm still in the FOG too,didn't move out from the end of the relationship... .

This morning she wrote : " Good morning... .i was just thinking at you... and was a bit worried that you never replied to me... .im sorry if i'm disturbing you... .i guess that i might be the last person... .that you want to hear about... .i just hope you're fine"

I'm in panic... .don't know what to do... .especially cause in the back of my mind i'm still thinking about which behaviours i should have to make her miss me or start thinking to want me back... .i'm splitten... .what she wants REALLY?she's just REALLY worried about me or there's something else going on under? since we broke up i feel i'm the pwBPD and she's the healty one and i'm going crazy... .

In the last days i'm thinking to tell her that i know everything about her BPD (we never REALLY faced the issue,even cause i knew pratically nothing until a couple of months ago) to speak to her in a very clear and honest way about her BPD,that i want to help her and love her... she always wanted a "true love" (is what she said) then why push away someone who in despite of all her "troubles" and problems still choose to stay close to her with patience and dedition? everyone else would escape,it's a non-sense!

Did someone tried to face "them" in this way telling them everything in this way?making them facing their behaviours explaning WHY thewy act in that way?

I don't know what to do... .i'm in limbo  :'( i'm here looking at the phone like an idiot... .and scared she could try to call me... .cause i don't know if i should reply or not... .help!

Oh do I remember those glory days. I even remember texts like, I havent heard from you, how are you? I worry! It's all part of the disorder.

Many people tried to tell their partners about BPD and many all got in a much worse period after. Don't do it. You don't stick a hornets nest without expecting to be hurt.

[Jbt857]

She's just poking the ground with a stick to see if anything comes up.

I know it's easy to read between the lines to make that contact anything you want it to be. But she's testing the water. Or bored. Or craving attention. Or... .any number of things really. But she isn't on her knees begging for you back. This contact isn't about you. If she is BPD, she probably isn't capable of worrying about you.

And even if she was begging for you back, going back isn't going to make it better.

I would love nothing more than for someone to wave a magic wand and make it all right between me and my ex husband. And I've also driven myself crazy wondering if I have BPD (most recently this week). I had come a reasonable way on my journey and I'm a big '3 steps backwards' right now.

But objectively, I know its a case that my heart hasn't caught up with my head. A part of me knows unequivocally that he was the one with BPD (I only have to go back and read some of our emails) and I also know from everything I have learned about BPD here and from history of how our marriage progressed (steadily worse) to know that going back is pointless. I have to wade through this pain to get to the other side. Holding onto the crumb of knowledge that my marriage really is hopelessly lost and there is no other way. Which is so incredibly painful to admit.

This contact isn't a sign of anything other than someone looking for some validation.

You get to choose what to do with it. You don't have to answer the phone if she calls. You don't have to respond. If you do, you're just feeding the continuation of the hurt, but I think most of us done that at some point. Smh.

I wish you well, whatever you decide to do. But you know most people here will tell you to ignore it, right?

[Ironmanrises]

She is trying to reengage you. If you let her back in, it will only be a matter of time before she hurts you again like she did the first time and discards you again, even more cruelly. That is what happened to me. Even if you tell her what about BPD, it wont make any difference. I told mine about her BPD, end result? No difference. I know you are hurting. Try with all your willpower to not respond to her message. By the way, i am Italian born like you.  

Hang in there.

[Changingman]

Words, what do you think? Is she bored? Does she need an ego burst from you, is her world not chaotic enough at the moment? Has she changed any? Are you any different? This is hard for you, I wouldn't be here if I was better, but I'm not her toy anymore. Think about yourself getting better. Crazy is as crazy does, words and feelings are temporary, serious commitment to your heart and feelings are alien to her, giving her your inner life has proved just painful for you hasn't it? This is masocistic! Stop letting others be responsible for your happiness, they're not... .you are. And she has proved she is careless with your happiness or worst. Treat yourself, put some love into yourself. Unhook yourself from the pain.

Change your telephone number. Think about how your future will be better without this torment. Become your strong happy self, let that live.

Good luck be strong

[Surnia]

Hi Nicco

A stressful moment - many here went through similar things. 

It is difficult to deal with those phone calls out of the blue!

its okay to have some panicked feelings running. Perhaps you can take some deep breathings.

Perhaps its time to work through some things like your FOG. Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”

I agree with others, you don't have to answer her. I suggest sometimes wait at least 24 hours before you think again about texting back.

[Nicco]

Thanks to you all... .this community is really the only "sunray" that i got from few months until now

Sometimes i thought that she pushed me away cause looking at me she has to face what she really is,what she does,her behaviours,her sick ways to love... .and she just can't handle a real confrontation with her self... .i would tell her that she's not a monster,that she deserve to beloved like everyone,that she doesn't have to be worried for what she really is,with me... .that i accept her ALL like she is... in the good (many aspects) and in the bad (many aspects too).

There's something else that maybe made her push me away... .talking apart about the fact that is true that we had more problems than happy moments (once again her lucidity to see all this surprise me and make me wonder if she's really BPD) a terrible thing happenbed this summer... .i'm still not able to think about without feel the need to run to the toile to throw.i'm gonna explain... .don't know if happened the same to someone else... .really hope not.

Like i said,me i'm italian my ex is french and we met on internet.when i met her she was desperate and forced to live with her parents who "apparently" (i can't be sure about nothing she told me,at this point) never cared about her and just made her suffer and been terrible with her.seems that after one of her attempts,at the hospital,her father told her "i would prefer to see you dead instead of still alive ruining our life".

when she decide to leave Italy to come back in France i desperately tried to make her mind change... .me i was working here but my family had huge economic problems and i had to give them half of my month pay... .every month... .she looked for a job when she was here but without success since she doesn't know the language and i live in a small town... .we had some problems among us too... a month earlier she started a triangulation with a 48 years old man who gave us the chance to ARG very often... .she told me many bullhits during those months... .so after this stressing period she decided to move back in france with her son to look for a job and a flat FOR US... .all this moved by the strong will to don't ask help to her parents... .for nothing in the world... .her parents live in the country side of Paris,2 hours far from the city by transports... .a pain in the ass while someone has to work in Paris-city.

When she left i still was her "soulmate" and in her mind she was going in France to set the bases for our future toghether... .now i regret that i didn't forced her to stay... .so she took her 5 years old child and jumped on the plane for Paris... .useless to say that she found her self in a very crap situation... .with a child,no money (and me not able to help her),no food,no place to sleep,she asked help to the social assistance and the got a lil bit of help... .she moved from an hotel room to another with her son for a while,just to don't go back to her parent's home... .she moved in May,in June she was still writing me "i'll love you forever,i miss you,soon we'll be togehter again" ... .me i was worried to death and already completely lost without any control on my mind,feelings,everything... .at the end of June the first "sunray"... .she found a long term job... .great... .but there was a problem... .if she goes to work,who cares about the child? if you replied "his grandpa and grandma" you are wrong! even if in the while the fact she was back in France was not a mistery for them anymore she didn't wanted to ask them nothing (i don't know how she explained all this to them) for sure she knew that me i was ready to sacrifice myself and to do it for her... .pratically she asked me to go there and pick up him to bring him back with me in italy (she asked me in a nice way and was a curious fact,less than a week before when i told her that i wanted to go to find them she told me sha was not in the mood for a romatnic meeting).

So i went there i took the boy and i'm back here in two days... .and she's been enough warm to me,never like before but she was nice anyway... .so she begun to work... and me here i was working 8 hours a day,studing and doing exams for university and keeping her son so i was pretty busy,very tired and very worried about everything anyway... .in the while she was telling me about her economic problems... .she was under 800 euro in her bank account... .me i was telling her to come back here cause i had no chance to send her the money she was in need,cause the sitaution was tragic in italy too so insted of stay there without money,in hotel,in a stressing situation was better to come back in Italy where she would have me in love with her and ready to build something here in few time... .she didnt' wanted... .i suggested to go back to her parents home since EVRYTHING was better than starve and have problems to live even day by day... .she KILLED me with her words,telling me i was crazy and that for any reason in the world she would come back with them,even if temporary... .me i was depserate cause i was feeling that i was losign her... .until that moment our communication was still "warm" anyway and she was still telling me often that she was in love with me... .at the end of June she totally changed from oine day to another apparently wuthout reason... .from one day to another she becomed cold and far... .when i asked why she told that she was very stressed and not able to be lovely with me anymore but to don't be worried about... .she becomed lil by lil colder and strat strange behaviours like disappear for two days or "forgetting" to call me when i was looking for her... .she told me she was having some "fun" with her new workmates since for the first time in her life she was free,without her son and able to hang out a lil bit with people... .she asked me "there's something bad if for once in my life i forget about my son and my fiancè and i have a lil bit of fun?sorry my heart,i love you deeply and you knwo that i just passing some time by myself with myfriends who helo me feeling less alone"... .off curse i was feeling guilty about my thoughts... .but everything was getting worst and worst quickly... .in the middle of July i was destrooyed by anxiety,suspects,FOG... .and everytime i was looking for her,for a lil bit of warm from her to feel that she was still with her i was only getting a cold wall abgainst my face... .and i was in hell... .she begun to post strange stuff on fb... .songs like "where did you sleep last night" or songs about the need to lie sometimes to the people we love... .i asked her if there was something i needed to know... .she always told me "not at all,it's only music and i'm just stressed by this situation... .and i still don't find a flat" ... .LIE... .in the middle of july one night she wrote me "tonight stay online,i need to talk with you" ... .and i discovered the terrible true... .my sweet half,my heart,my beautiful angel that i just wanted to have back to desperately love told me that since a month she was working like receptionist,yes,but not only... .since a month she was PROSTITUTING herself on many escorts-website with old business man... .she was giving sex for money... .instead of come back in italy or go to her parents she prefered to become a prostitute!

Something inside myself is dead that night.I completely lost my head,i started to scream,to cry,to crush things while we were having the conversation on Skype... .since that moment i never had control over my mind and feelings anymore... .my girlfriend who was supposed to love me and who just wanted to spend her life with me was a prostitute... .telling me lies... .while i was killing my self here so much i was tired for keeping her son,going to work and doing exams (she always complained i was "lazy" about university and that was a big problems for our relationship).

She told me that she had no choice cause was a desperate situation but that she told me everything cause she "deeply loved me" ... .few time after she broke our relation i  discovered that during those month she's been a prostitute she was in contact with the 48 years old man of the triangulation i alredy talked about and that BEFORE SHE STARTED TO HAVE SEX FOR MONEY HE OFFERED HER ALL THE MONEY SHE NEEDED BUT SHE SAID "NO" without reason... .and during her second "activity" she was telling him how much he was special and how much she was in love ("like a friend" with him and how much she was HATING me for that situation... .she was hating ME... .she decided to leave when i was telling her to don't do it,she found her self without money with a child with me that i wasn't able to give her nothing (after she told me "if you really wanted to help you had to find the way to help me with money" ... .but mine is not a rich family we were already to our limit!) she didn't want to go to her parents and SHE DIDN'T want to accept money from this other person but in all this she was HATING ME! CRAZy!

Brief... .we started to arg everyday... .everyday... .her totally lack of empathy sometimes really killed me (once she wrote me that there were some "FUNNY ANECTODES" about her second activity to tell me... .she used the word FUNNY what the hell?how there could be something FUNNY in this nightmare?you are my girlfriend and you hited with don't know how many strangers and you told me that's FUNNY? when i made her notice that she told me i was only good to complain and that she was tired about this behaviour of mine... .thanks,very sensible) when i've been there at the end of august a confrontation about what she done during the summer was inevitable... .me i was in "berserk-mode" about my feelings and isnide my mind... .not able to reason in a properly way anymore... .and i was unable to hide my pain and sorrow for our situation,without understand why she just didn't wanted to come back to the people who loved her strongly and wanted to help her... .in the while she got a flat (who become VERY QUICKLY "her" flat and not "our" flat anymore) with the money she got from prostitution... .and she told me i was THE ONLY ONE on the planet who was able to make her feel guilty and depressed for what she done... .me i replied that i just wanted to pass over everything and be happy with her... .how can i be able to still want her after all this?when we met in august we passed 15 days together in her flat... .one hitty week arguing badly... .one nice week having fun and big affections we didnt had since a long time... .i really thought that maybe things were going in the right direction,AGAIN... i was tryng to keep my pain for me and we said to dont talk anymore about what happened... .she said she was in love with me and didn't want to lose me... .when im back there for a while she wrote me three times a day to tell me "i miss you,come here again as soon as you can,i love you strongly,don''t leave me" ... .she even paid my plane ticket for semptember... .september arrived... .i've been there... .she was cold and far without reason since until one week before she was declaring her deep love for me ... .and she left... .i'm back in Italy like a hit,destroyed,painful like never before.

All this to explain why maybe she has problems to stay in my company... .maybe i just remind her all those bad things happened and she prefer to run away instead of face herself in the mirror... .but me i don't care about these things i pass over everything if she give me the chance to help her... .hell,it's a mess and i need help for sure!

[Nicco]

Sorry,i see now that the "forum" doesn't like some words i used... .and i don't find the "edit" button to solve the problem!

[Nicco]

And just to tell,while i was writing my long last post i closed my phone... .i tunred it on again and i got another message from her who tried to call me in the while... .is off again,i'm going deeply in anxiety and panic... .for the first time since the end... .it's a nightmare  :'(

[Ironmanrises]

She will push you away again if you let her back in. "I hate you, don't leave me." You experienced her "other" side. You will experience that other side of her again if you let her back in.

[Jbt857]

Nicco,

That is quite a story to have shared. Poor you, having to endure so much. 

No wonder you feel traumatised to hear from her.

But look back on what you have written. She has shown no consideration for your thoughts or feelings. Her reaching out now isn't because she is worried about you. She is worried about her. Be pretty sure of that.

You show such incredible compassion to have done so much for her and her child. You really went above and beyond what we should expect of another. Now you need to show the same level of care towards yourself. She has made her choices. It's time for you to make some choices that are good for you. Start by not engaging with her. She will tire and move on to another target if you don't respond. Look after YOU. 

[Nicco]

I guess you're right... .my brain know you are.

What is crazy is that i overwhelmed every limit that i thought i would never... .talking about behaviours/actions to endure inside a relationship... .and everything happened quite "easily",like if would be normal to face all this... .and i'm not upset with her... .i should but i can't... .and i don't know how it is possible.

[Nicco]

She will push you away again if you let her back in. "I hate you, don't leave me." You experienced her "other" side. You will experience that other side of her again if you let her back in.

I'm looking for that book indeed... .but there's no italian translation... .i don't have big problems with original alnguage anyway... .just have to find it on the web!

Anyway yes... .maybe i should just stop to think that i was "special" for her,that she would find the strenght to let me be special for her if she would just recognize that the love she's looking for could be true... .i feel so ingenuous

[Changingman]

Brother, sister,

This is scary stuff, extract yourself from it. The future is written by you. In all modesty, you are alright, just got into a bad place.

It's exciting life, bring yourself to the table, imagine doing what you want/like/have passion for. That is ahead of you. X

Feel ok about your feelings, it feels alien to me still but it's ok, maybe better.

X

[HarmKrakow]

In danger of sounding like a self righteous a$$hole, i'm always shocked to read that people like that 'wander the earth' free and cause misery and destruction everywhere. If I was working in child services i'd take that kid away without any hesitation at all what so ever.

[Learning_curve74]

its okay to have some panicked feelings running. Perhaps you can take some deep breathings.

Perhaps its time to work through some things like your FOG. Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”

I agree with others, you don't have to answer her. I suggest sometimes wait at least 24 hours before you think again about texting back.

Hello Nicco, I just want to say that your story is heartbreaking. You deserve a hug. 

Please make sure to read the link that Surnia posted above, it may help you. The advice about waiting 24 hours before relying is also a good idea.

There is a well known book about BPD entitled, "I hate you, don't leave me". It perfectly describes the behavior of many people with BPD. Many people here cannot understand why, and I believe it's not truly necessary to understand why, but it is only really important to accept that it is true.

Best wishes to you.

[Nicco]

She is trying to reengage you. If you let her back in, it will only be a matter of time before she hurts you again like she did the first time and discards you again, even more cruelly. That is what happened to me. Even if you tell her what about BPD, it wont make any difference. I told mine about her BPD, end result? No difference. I know you are hurting. Try with all your willpower to not respond to her message. By the way, i am Italian born like you.  

Hang in there.

Don't think she's tryng to do that... .her life now is all about independency seems... .mah... .things like "Stop looking for a partner.Focus on your goals and rebuild your life.The right person will eventually find their way to you"... .one of her last post this afternoon... .discover it BEFORE my one-way-ticket to hell no? IDIOT me that i still go to check... .IDIOT!

I'm without words,really... .the "right" person... .in a sort of way i admire her... .maybe i just gone crazy... .the right person... .like "sorry, i told you you were the man of my life and i made everything to made you believe it deeply... .but you know what,i was wrong... .sorry if i made your life a painful pit but everyone make mistakes no?cheers"

And talking about her son... .he's very linked to her mother... .very linked... .she's a good mother in her sick way... .he's a very good child... .i hope he won't have any problems in future for what he saw during his life... .like his mother almost dead on the bed with doctors tryng to save her life... .i'm feeling bad for him too  :'(

[Nicco]

its okay to have some panicked feelings running. Perhaps you can take some deep breathings.

Perhaps its time to work through some things like your FOG. Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”

I agree with others, you don't have to answer her. I suggest sometimes wait at least 24 hours before you think again about texting back.

Hello Nicco, I just want to say that your story is heartbreaking. You deserve a hug. 

Please make sure to read the link that Surnia posted above, it may help you. The advice about waiting 24 hours before relying is also a good idea.

There is a well known book about BPD entitled, "I hate you, don't leave me". It perfectly describes the behavior of many people with BPD. Many people here cannot understand why, and I believe it's not truly necessary to understand why, but it is only really important to accept that it is true.

Best wishes to you.

Hello to you and thanks for your kind words.

I will read everything,i already started.

I think my biggest problem is that im still focused on what she would want from me to be right for her instead of what i want from me to be right for my self first!

Thanks to everyone again 

[Changingman]

Be strong, be yourself, beware!

[Nicco]

Ok,seems that today is THE day she has chosen to comes out again... .got another fb message "You know... i m really worry for you... .

I m tryin to join you since a couple of days and its seems impossible... .So now i am really worried for you... ." ... .and she makes my phone ring,not properly call... .she tried to call me this afternoon but was off... .i "felt" since this morning that she would not give up trying to contact me... .since for the first time during our relation i'm not "running" to the pc to write her or calling her... .i used to pass EVERY night chatting with her until late night when we were far and she was depressed... .i lost don't know how many hours of sleep to don't make her feel alone... .i guess she's disappointed by my indifference.

[LaSuede]

What a story.

What a devastating period in your life.

I know it's sounds ridiculous futile at the moment, but now it can not be worse -if you don't let it. Don't. Worse than this is hard to imagine.

Especially with a kid involved... .

I agree fully with Jbt857.

I also have to ask: how's the kid doing... ? Where is his dad? Who is at his side now? Is she prostituting with him around? The grandparents/parents might not care about her, or they have cared to their own limits, who knows... ? but the little kid... ? Do they really not care about him?

You must be torned apart. I know the feeling when in the middle if the "tumbler".

It will take time. Let it.

And don't sacrifice more of your studies or family-relations.

You might regret it.

I also became the mirror for my exBPDbf, the mirror which showed the truth as it was - I also thought if I am just there and show love he will manage... .He also went back to his home country France. He also escaped his parents there finally. He went to a third country... .

He's  also involved in prostitution, mostly as a user/buyer, but today I am not certain he's not selling himself too, cause he has nothing to live of. He has also given me details I don't want to have, like it was normal/funny... .

We have a three years old child.

The problem is, as I see it, when a pwBPD face the truth about him or herself, he/she search another place to rebuild his/her "dream-self" again. The non-reality-person they want to be... .They start to believe in this "fictive" person.

And they make others believe in it. They make even us believe in it, even when our brains know oh so well, our heart is dreaming this dream too... Or the opposite: our hearts are very wounded but our mind wants to believe. What was possible to have, that was about to happen, but did not is sometimes the hardest to leave. That life/rs we thought we could have, that went out of our hand over and over again like a soap in the ocean.

Your ex wants to be someone caring.

So she says she cares.

If she was, truly, she would not act like that to a child - her child.

Or to you.

It is not caring. Point.

My ex also posted songs like "Changes" (read: happy-new-start) on fb.

Now he's a total mess... .His "changes" made him destroy everything that was left in his life.

It is going from the best to the worst looser very fast.

You go from soulmate to cold case even faster.

Don't believe in her "freedom" and "happiness", don't take it personal.

Keep your head high. You are the one that has been - and are - the caring person.

You are the one that need to turn away and rebuild.

I know it might not be recommendable, but if I were you, I would even try to contact the kids father one day, when feeling stronger.

Or do you know what she tells about him is reasonable and the truth, is he a horrible person/father... ?

Of course you need to be stronger and do it for the kid more than anything else, I believe... .Yes, this is tremendously hard indeed, and delicate.

I hope you find strength.

[Changingman]

I think the bottom line is this... .

They where abandoned, abused ( sexually or emotionally or both ) they can see the hurt in us the lonely abused child, they appeal to that and join with us. When they torture that child we are helpless.

When abandoned we feel 4 years old destroyed. Please love me becomes our mantra.

We can fight it becomes our attitude, the misfiring becomes the enabling for the worst kind of abuse. Because they pretend to be something they are not and they hate us for ... .not realising they hate themselves.

[Changingman]

The mask

It is so, obvious so cliched, so old school, so true.

[Changingman]

Leave me alone. Bitter child.

[GreenMango]

Hi Nicco,

Getting those messages can really confuse a person.  Add in the hurt and its not a pretty place to be. 

It sounds like you need some time to get your bearings.  Let those emotions calm.  This is hard to do when the person who is part of the problem is pushing like she is.

If she has BPD part of the disorder is lack of boundaries and gauging what is appropriate.  Now that she's decided she doesn't want a relationship.  But sometimes that means the person still expects that the emotional support etc will stay the same. 

In real life that doesn't happen.  My guess is she is thinking that you guys can be friends and still talk. 

Have you asked her to leave you alone? (i haven't read your history apologies).  Sometimes we need to just ask.  Then if they keep on it you can feel more secure in moving on and not so thrown by the erratic attempts at connection.

[Nicco]

@LaSuede

Hi and thanks for your words... .i'm really sorry you had to pass through a similar experience too.

If could be useful to "rassure" you,especially about the child,my ex is not a prostitute anymore... .i mean,in uly,the night she told about her second "job" she told me too that her second activity was definitely closed since she got all the money she needed to fill up her debts and to rent her actually flat,just to start you know... .plus she said she reached her limit and just thinking to have sex again with a stranger was making feel her completely sick,she wasn't able anymore.she was waiting to finish to tell me everything cause she was feeling extremely guilty for... .she showed me the "escort girls website" where she had her profile and told she already deleted everything.

Now she's just working normally and having a "normal" life with her kid... .who is ALWAYS been with me during that period,she could NEVER do something like that with him around... .and is one of the few thing i could be sure about... .and i want to write some kind words about her like mother,cause i think that in despite of her disorder,she deserves that... .i know that after what i wrote it could sounds crazy,but she's REALLY a good mother... .really.

Every "healty" side of her personality is fully concentrated on him... .actually i think that the only healty sides and behaviours about her belong ONLY to him... .she's really the most sweet,careful,lovely and responsible mother possible... .like parent probably she's much better than i can never hope to become.

She doesn't abuse him,she doesn't hurt him without reason and she's doesn't have crazy behaviours with him... .she's stricly,yes,but absolutely "right" with him... .if she denise him something she explains him why... .if she's upset with him and "screams" to him (like every parent i guess) she explains him why... .and if she promises something to him be sure she'll do it... .they have a wonderful relationship and for nothing in the world she could do something bad to him... .never.

Her attention for him is admirable... .he would never miss nothing he would need... .she teaches him only "good" and healty things about life,about how to be with other people,education... .from this point of view she's incredible... .even more since she has grown him completely alone.

With him and for him,she absolutely gives her 100%,her "best" under every aspect... .when the lil one left with me to leave her completely "freedom" to go to work (her REAL work) and set the situation she promised him just one thing "Mamy will work hard for you... .i promise we will have a flat just for you and your mamy where to live together like we dream" ... .and she kept her promise at 100%.

The kid is the most lovely and good child that i ever met... .sweet,relaxed,he listens every single word someone could tell him... .he's an angel... .i could reproche her everything... .but NOTHING about her way to be a mother... .his needs come ALWAYS the needs of everyone else... .and now they have a normal life.

I dont think i would be able to do the same... .from this point of view,she's way better than me.

His father on the contrary never took care of him... .he left his mother when she was pregnant and had just few contact with them after he's born... .i never pretended to take his place... .is not so easy anyway... .and the problems i had with his mother made thing even more complicated.

[Turkish]

she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people)

Mine says similar things. Ultimately, it's all exactly the opposite. It sounds like she is going into "hermit" mode, for a brief time. That is often typical with the BPD. Then they cycle back to the Waif, Queen, Witch/Hater, Discard/Recycle/Discard... .back to Waif. It's a sad, sad script.

[Ironmanrises]

she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people)

Mine says similar things. Ultimately, it's all exactly the opposite. It sounds like she is going into "hermit" mode, for a brief time. That is often typical with the BPD. Then they cycle back to the Waif, Queen, Witch/Hater, Discard/Recycle/Discard... .back to Waif. It's a sad, sad script.

Mine was doing the same in the devaluation period in round 2. She was projecting this image to the social media world of hers that she was in "personal development" and reading the self help book "The Secret" which was "opening her eyes", while destroying me in the same process. She has no self but was projecting "personal development"; a cruel contradiction with that ___ing book as the perfect facade to hide behind. No one questioned her on any of that, they all applauded her and stroked her ego. I watched all of that in horrifying silence. How was a self help book going to help someone with a personality disorder? More and more awful contradictions. And of course, I stuck around. The final contradiction.

[LaSuede]

Nicco,

Thank you, you should not need to reassure me... .javascript:void(0);

But it was good to hear actually, I always tend to worry about kids in vulnerable situations (part of my job).

And most important, I hope and guess it's some kind of relief for you, not to worry about him too.

I understand if you miss him though, after so much time together.

Hope you will find strength and ways to live your life.

I have had some real upgoing days, so it gets better day by day - but today was a down-day javascript:void(0);

They are at least coming in between longer periods of happiness.

That gives me strength.

javascript:void(0);

[LaSuede]

Don't know why my smileys do not show up:

it was 1.  2.   3.

Hehehe... .I have never used so many smileys as in this forum.

One live to learn.

[Turkish]

she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people)

Mine says similar things. Ultimately, it's all exactly the opposite. It sounds like she is going into "hermit" mode, for a brief time. That is often typical with the BPD. Then they cycle back to the Waif, Queen, Witch/Hater, Discard/Recycle/Discard... .back to Waif. It's a sad, sad script.

Mine was doing the same in the devaluation period in round 2. She was projecting this image to the social media world of hers that she was in "personal development" and reading the self help book "The Secret" which was "opening her eyes", while destroying me in the same process. She has no self but was projecting "personal development"; a cruel contradiction with that ___ing book as the perfect facade to hide behind. No one questioned her on any of that, they all applauded her and stroked her ego. I watched all of that in horrifying silence. How was a self help book going to help someone with a personality disorder? More and more awful contradictions. And of course, I stuck around. The final contradiction.

Major red flags for me in future r/s, "finding" or "working" on ones' self. Of course, mine never came off like that in the beginning, but is into it full tilt now.

[MammaMia]

Nicco

I am so sorry for your situation, and I am glad you found us.

From what I have read, I doubt that your ex even knows what she wants out of life right now.

She says she NEEDS her freedom with no emotional connection to you or her child.  On the other hand, she NEEDS you to help her, be there for her, and care for her son. Yet, she is a loving mother who has pretty much abandoned her child... .? What? That is a total contradiction.

She can't have it both ways. Of course, you and her son are confused and hurt.  It also sounds as if you have bonded.  Is this fair to either of you?

While no one can tell you what to do about her lack of responsibility and indifference, it is clear that she is taking advantage of you and damaging the wellbeing of her child.  

You have a decision to make... .what do YOU need?

[ctrlaltdel]

This cry for independency! My UexBPDgf (feels weird to use this label, but I understand its usefulness) was doing this often and now I know a little bit more about BPD I better understand why I felt/feel so sorry for her AND why I was so powerless in my attempts to help her. If you are totally depending on others in order to survive, to feel, to grow... .if you have no real sense of self... .it must be both the most desirable and the most frightening thing to become independent from others.

My ex was doing a lot of self help/alternative therapy. I tried to critically support that, and it worked sometimes: it opened the path to some serious talk about her and my and our problems. I even started to like some of the buddhist and yoga stuff she was into lately, but then she turned the 'letting go' principle against our relationship and me. When she left me her only explanation was: "I want to be emotionally independent". Right after that statement she went off to her new lover!

Speaking about contradictions... .Looking back (about 6 months now), her actions resulted in forcing me to find my independence because my only choice was 'letting her go' or return to the battlefield of a war already lost.

[Nicco]

Nicco

I am so sorry for your situation, and I am glad you found us.

From what I have read, I doubt that your ex even knows what she wants out of life right now.

She says she NEEDS her freedom with no emotional connection to you or her child.  On the other hand, she NEEDS you to help her, be there for her, and care for her son. Yet, she is a loving mother who has pretty much abandoned her child... .? What? That is a total contradiction.

She can't have it both ways. Of course, you and her son are confused and hurt.  It also sounds as if you have bonded.  Is this fair to either of you?

While no one can tell you what to do about her lack of responsibility and indifference, it is clear that she is taking advantage of you and damaging the wellbeing of her child.  

You have a decision to make... .what do YOU need?

Hello MammaMia

i could understand your doubts... .actually all her story about "independency" means only "independency from romantic relationships" and it comed out just after our break up in september... .this summer we where "officialy" still together so i guess she prefered to leave her son for a couple of months with some people she trusted (me,my parents too) instead of give him more stressing days living in hotel in a crap situation... .was the first time they have been separated for so long.

She didn't "abandoned" him... .she knew that during that difficult moment was better for him to stay in a safe place surrounded by good people who loved him... .as soon as she got the flat i flyed there with him... .so yes,she took advantage on me... .but for the child is been definitely better in this way... .and believe me when i say that in despite of her disorder,she's responsible ONLY when we talk about her son.

Me,first of all,i guess i need to learn to love myself.

[Turkish]

My ex was doing a lot of self help/alternative therapy. I tried to critically support that, and it worked sometimes: it opened the path to some serious talk about her and my and our problems. I even started to like some of the buddhist and yoga stuff she was into lately, but then she turned the 'letting go' principle against our relationship and me. When she left me her only explanation was: "I want to be emotionally independent". Right after that statement she went off to her new lover!

Wow. We must have been dating the same woman.

[Nicco]

So i'm reading that is a pretty "common" behaviour of a pwBPD to declare this need and research of emotive independance... .speaking true it make me feel a lil bit "better"... .cause these last months i've been looping with the same thoughts like "Ok,now she will be feel better... .her depression is gone,she got what she wanted (a flat,job,a kind of "normal" life she missed until now) and now... .now she'll meet someone else... .and she will be wonderful (cause jezus,she's when she's fine)... .while me i got all the "dirty" job... .someone else will get just the best of her... .if onl i wasn't such a creep,if only i knew sooner about her disorder and how to menage it... .if only i was a better man now we would be still together... .she said she didn't want to be depressed and needy forever... .and she kept her word... .and now she'll be fine with someone else,bravo!"

My mind often tortured me... .still doing it sometimes... .some days less... .some days more... .and this unstoppable feeling of guilt for everytime that i haven't been warmer with her... .for every time that i didn't took her head in my hands,watched her deeply in her beautiful eyes and simply told her ":)on't worry,i know that you are painful... .trust in me and everything will be ok"  :'(

Mmmmmm... .

[Turkish]

So i'm reading that is a pretty "common" behaviour of a pwBPD to declare this need and research of emotive independance... .speaking true it make me feel a lil bit "better"... .cause these last months i've been looping with the same thoughts like "Ok,now she will be feel better... .her depression is gone,she got what she wanted (a flat,job,a kind of "normal" life she missed until now) and now... .now she'll meet someone else... .and she will be wonderful (cause jezus,she's when she's fine)... .while me i got all the "dirty" job... .someone else will get just the best of her... .if onl i wasn't such a creep,if only i knew sooner about her disorder and how to menage it... .if only i was a better man now we would be still together... .she said she didn't want to be depressed and needy forever... .and she kept her word... .and now she'll be fine with someone else,bravo!"

My mind often tortured me... .still doing it sometimes... .some days less... .some days more... .and this unstoppable feeling of guilt for everytime that i haven't been warmer with her... .for every time that i didn't took her head in my hands,watched her deeply in her beautiful eyes and simply told her ":)on't worry,i know that you are painful... .trust in me and everything will be ok"  :'(

I think you are doing well, Nicco. Mine had everything she wanted: two awesome kids, a secure home, financial security, a [mostly] great partner, a good job where she makes a difference and is appreciated. She would sometimes get in these moods, saying "I have everything any woman could want, but I feel so empty, why isn't it enough?" I would listen and soothe her, since I would hear this from time to time. Her BPD was too strong, however. She started detaching after our second child... .in combination how I was reacting (wrongly, but I am human with a heart and feelings, too) to her demands and subtly increasing rages.

She told me the other night, "I just can't do this" This meaning, all that I stated above: a 3 dimensional, adult relationship. So she has the 1-dimensional teenage relationship. That is ultimately what she can handle. Sure, I wasn't perfect... .maybe I wasn't perfect for her? That's why she went to a much younger (and very immature) "man." She needs to mother, meet her immediate physical needs with no real commitment, so she doesn't have to confront her self for any length of time. On my end, I don't need another daughter since I already have one.

[MammaMia]

Nicco

I am glad to hear your ex has found work, a flat, has resumed care of her son, and seems to feel better about herself. 

Did you realize she would leave or did you expect some kind of future with her once she "found herself"?  Are you still friends, and do you know how her son is doing?

You are a kind, compassionate man, and she and her son were lucky to have you in their lives.  You have not failed her in any way.  AND you deserve better.

[mumuli]

Recycle time |iiiiYves

[Nicco]

Nicco

I am glad to hear your ex has found work, a flat, has resumed care of her son, and seems to feel better about herself. 

Did you realize she would leave or did you expect some kind of future with her once she "found herself"?  Are you still friends, and do you know how her son is doing?

You are a kind, compassionate man, and she and her son were lucky to have you in their lives.  You have not failed her in any way.  AND you deserve better.

A futur with her?I would love it my all my sick heart... .is it possible?Don't think so... .

i have no news about the child... .or her,except for the few i got from my "lurking" on her fb profile... .and the situation is the same as i wrote... .it's definitely a bad night here today... .(here in Italy is 10 pm)

[Jbt857]

Nicco, try not to look at her fb. It's difficult not to, but is stopped checking my ex's some months ago and I'm much better for it. I need to finalise a few things with him, the moment I do - he is blocked. But I can't cause any problems for myself right now.

Spend your time reading the lessons and workshops here instead - it's much healthier for you!

[Turkish]

Nicco, try not to look at her fb. It's difficult not to, but is stopped checking my ex's some months ago and I'm much better for it. I need to finalise a few things with him, the moment I do - he is blocked. But I can't cause any problems for myself right now.

Spend your time reading the lessons and workshops here instead - it's much healthier for you!

Blocking is best, Nicco. You don't even see comments from each other if you still have common friends. I blocked mine last month, despite her still living in my house. I got sick of seeing the self-validating crap she posted, in-between posting pics of our kids... .and the seemingly endless stream of selfies she posts for identity validation. She was making it out like she was some type of battered wife leaving a loveless relationship, moving on to "better things" and "being stronger". Complete reversal of what is really going on. I still get the urge to have someone "spy" on her, but I just don't care anymore.

[Nicco]

I'm sorry to came here to write for every lil "evolution"... .but for the moment i feel better only writing/reading here... .after she tried to contact me some days ago by phone (my dad told me she wrote to him toobjust to apologies and tell them she loves them and she's sorry if she's been a delusion for them) ,messages,whatever... .telling me she was "worried for me" without a reply from me... .finally i wrote her a lil phone message tonight... i knowit's wrong probably... .i've been totally out of her range for almost two months now... .but since i got her message i felt a growing violent "tension" inside me... .like to have different conflicting voices whispering in my mind telling me conflicting things... ."wite her... .maybe she's just really worried... just tell her you're fine and nothing more"... ."don't do it,you're gonna regret... .be strong,she's just tryng to clean her conscience"... .finally i did tonight... .just wrote "Hi there... .i'm fine,take care of you and give a hug to (name of he child)"... .i got suddenly a message from her... ."Oki... sorry for have bored you... .thanks you have replied to me... .take care of you too"

5 minutes after,another message... .":)o you hate me?"... .no i don't,my heart... .i hate myself for not having yet moved a step far from you in two months... .i didn't replied,don't know what to do.

[Turkish]

I'm sorry to came here to write for every lil "evolution"... .but for the moment i feel better only writing/reading here... .after she tried to contact me some days ago by phone (my dad told me she wrote to him toobjust to apologies and tell them she loves them and she's sorry if she's been a delusion for them) ,messages,whatever... .telling me she was "worried for me" without a reply from me... .finally i wrote her a lil phone message tonight... i knowit's wrong probably... .i've been totally out of her range for almost two months now... .but since i got her message i felt a growing violent "tension" inside me... .like to have different conflicting voices whispering in my mind telling me conflicting things... ."wite her... .maybe she's just really worried... just tell her you're fine and nothing more"... ."don't do it,you're gonna regret... .be strong,she's just tryng to clean her conscience"... .finally i did tonight... .just wrote "Hi there... .i'm fine,take care of you and give a hug to (name of he child)"... .i got suddenly a message from her... ."Oki... sorry for have bored you... .thanks you have replied to me... .take care of you too"

5 minutes after,another message... .":)o you hate me?"... .no i don't,my heart... .i hate myself for not having yet moved a step far from you in two months... .i didn't replied,don't know what to do.

Oh, Nicco, I feel for you. I think most of us have been there. Involving your parents is crossing all sorts of boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, but it seems like she and they had some type of relationship through you.

Write as much as you would to her, here on bpdfamily, if that helps you write "to her"... .without actually doing it. Is there any way you can just block her number?

[Hazelrah]

she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people)

Mine says similar things. Ultimately, it's all exactly the opposite. It sounds like she is going into "hermit" mode, for a brief time. That is often typical with the BPD. Then they cycle back to the Waif, Queen, Witch/Hater, Discard/Recycle/Discard... .back to Waif. It's a sad, sad script.

Mine was doing the same in the devaluation period in round 2. She was projecting this image to the social media world of hers that she was in "personal development" and reading the self help book "The Secret" which was "opening her eyes", while destroying me in the same process. She has no self but was projecting "personal development"; a cruel contradiction with that ___ing book as the perfect facade to hide behind. No one questioned her on any of that, they all applauded her and stroked her ego. I watched all of that in horrifying silence. How was a self help book going to help someone with a personality disorder? More and more awful contradictions. And of course, I stuck around. The final contradiction.

Major red flags for me in future r/s, "finding" or "working" on ones' self. Of course, mine never came off like that in the beginning, but is into it full tilt now.

I once counted the number of self-help books my BPD wife had on our various bookshelves--lost count at about 25.  On the one hand, I commend her quest, but if I was her 'real' barrier to happiness, she most certainly could've saved some money (and shelf space) by realizing it sooner. 

[Turkish]

she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people)

Mine says similar things. Ultimately, it's all exactly the opposite. It sounds like she is going into "hermit" mode, for a brief time. That is often typical with the BPD. Then they cycle back to the Waif, Queen, Witch/Hater, Discard/Recycle/Discard... .back to Waif. It's a sad, sad script.

Mine was doing the same in the devaluation period in round 2. She was projecting this image to the social media world of hers that she was in "personal development" and reading the self help book "The Secret" which was "opening her eyes", while destroying me in the same process. She has no self but was projecting "personal development"; a cruel contradiction with that ___ing book as the perfect facade to hide behind. No one questioned her on any of that, they all applauded her and stroked her ego. I watched all of that in horrifying silence. How was a self help book going to help someone with a personality disorder? More and more awful contradictions. And of course, I stuck around. The final contradiction.

Major red flags for me in future r/s, "finding" or "working" on ones' self. Of course, mine never came off like that in the beginning, but is into it full tilt now.

I once counted the number of self-help books my BPD wife had on our various bookshelves--lost count at about 25.  On the one hand, I commend her quest, but if I was her 'real' barrier to happiness, she most certainly could've saved some money (and shelf space) by realizing it sooner. 

I like the sarcasm there... .Another rf would be to see how much of that self-validating crap they post on FB, along with the number of selfies (though I realize there is a generational thing with the latter). Also, subscribing or regularly reading certain gender-targeted periodicals.

[Nicco]

I'm sorry to came here to write for every lil "evolution"... .but for the moment i feel better only writing/reading here... .after she tried to contact me some days ago by phone (my dad told me she wrote to him toobjust to apologies and tell them she loves them and she's sorry if she's been a delusion for them) ,messages,whatever... .telling me she was "worried for me" without a reply from me... .finally i wrote her a lil phone message tonight... i knowit's wrong probably... .i've been totally out of her range for almost two months now... .but since i got her message i felt a growing violent "tension" inside me... .like to have different conflicting voices whispering in my mind telling me conflicting things... ."wite her... .maybe she's just really worried... just tell her you're fine and nothing more"... ."don't do it,you're gonna regret... .be strong,she's just tryng to clean her conscience"... .finally i did tonight... .just wrote "Hi there... .i'm fine,take care of you and give a hug to (name of he child)"... .i got suddenly a message from her... ."Oki... sorry for have bored you... .thanks you have replied to me... .take care of you too"

5 minutes after,another message... .":)o you hate me?"... .no i don't,my heart... .i hate myself for not having yet moved a step far from you in two months... .i didn't replied,don't know what to do.

Oh, Nicco, I feel for you. I think most of us have been there. Involving your parents is crossing all sorts of boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, but it seems like she and they had some type of relationship through you.

Write as much as you would to her, here on bpdfamily, if that helps you write "to her"... .without actually doing it. Is there any way you can just block her number?

I never asked her to don't write/phone me anymore... .maybe i was thinking to keep a kind of "back door" with her you know... .everything is happend just now and i'm new to all this... .how would you call it?hope?

Maybe it's true that hope is the source of greatest strength and the greatest weakness of the human being at the same time.

[Jbt857]

I'm sorry to came here to write for every lil "evolution"... .but for the moment i feel better only writing/reading here... .after she tried to contact me some days ago by phone (my dad told me she wrote to him toobjust to apologies and tell them she loves them and she's sorry if she's been a delusion for them) ,messages,whatever... .telling me she was "worried for me" without a reply from me... .finally i wrote her a lil phone message tonight... i knowit's wrong probably... .i've been totally out of her range for almost two months now... .but since i got her message i felt a growing violent "tension" inside me... .like to have different conflicting voices whispering in my mind telling me conflicting things... ."wite her... .maybe she's just really worried... just tell her you're fine and nothing more"... ."don't do it,you're gonna regret... .be strong,she's just tryng to clean her conscience"... .finally i did tonight... .just wrote "Hi there... .i'm fine,take care of you and give a hug to (name of he child)"... .i got suddenly a message from her... ."Oki... sorry for have bored you... .thanks you have replied to me... .take care of you too"

5 minutes after,another message... .":)o you hate me?"... .no i don't,my heart... .i hate myself for not having yet moved a step far from you in two months... .i didn't replied,don't know what to do.

You know what to do.

Ignore it.

She knows you are ok. You know why NC is recommended. You can see from the stories here where it will lead if you do.

You have come part way away from her. Don't undo that by going back and engaging with her need for self-soothing.

[Turkish]

Write as much as you would to her, here on bpdfamily, if that helps you write "to her"... .without actually doing it. Is there any way you can just block her number?

I never asked her to don't write/phone me anymore... .maybe i was thinking to keep a kind of "back door" with her you know... .everything is happend just now and i'm new to all this... .how would you call it?hope?

Nicco, mine's been living in my house with our two small children for months while I am still pushing her out and while she is still carrying on some type of relationship with another man (a boy, really). It got thrown in my face just last week when she sent me a text meant for him, and he called her phone the other night as she, I and our two kids were sitting down for dinner. I still have some part of me that "hopes" it will work out.

I can beat myself up for it, I can try to rationalize why I would want to remain with this person who played basically a "teenage mom" for the better part of this past year, betrayed (and continues to do so!) me and also my children, made no seeming end of demands to maker her happy, and sabotaged us financially, costing our family a lot of money and most of my savings. The thing is, that we had an intimate connection with our partners. Of course we hope or have hope that it will be better. What ordered person does not? What we need to do, however, is catch our hearts up with our minds, and realize that it is probable that the relationship that we desire will never be possible.

Maybe it's true that hope is the source of greatest strength and the greatest weakness of the human being at the same time.

That is interesting... .I don't know if I agree with that upon first reading, but it is something to think about.

[Ironmanrises]

she posts stuff about "independency" (from love,from people)

Mine says similar things. Ultimately, it's all exactly the opposite. It sounds like she is going into "hermit" mode, for a brief time. That is often typical with the BPD. Then they cycle back to the Waif, Queen, Witch/Hater, Discard/Recycle/Discard... .back to Waif. It's a sad, sad script.

Mine was doing the same in the devaluation period in round 2. She was projecting this image to the social media world of hers that she was in "personal development" and reading the self help book "The Secret" which was "opening her eyes", while destroying me in the same process. She has no self but was projecting "personal development"; a cruel contradiction with that ___ing book as the perfect facade to hide behind. No one questioned her on any of that, they all applauded her and stroked her ego. I watched all of that in horrifying silence. How was a self help book going to help someone with a personality disorder? More and more awful contradictions. And of course, I stuck around. The final contradiction.

Major red flags for me in future r/s, "finding" or "working" on ones' self. Of course, mine never came off like that in the beginning, but is into it full tilt now.

I once counted the number of self-help books my BPD wife had on our various bookshelves--lost count at about 25.  On the one hand, I commend her quest, but if I was her 'real' barrier to happiness, she most certainly could've saved some money (and shelf space) by realizing it sooner. 

I like the sarcasm there... .Another rf would be to see how much of that self-validating crap they post on FB, along with the number of selfies (though I realize there is a generational thing with the latter). Also, subscribing or regularly reading certain gender-targeted periodicals.

It really makes you feel that we are all describing the same person. Sometimes i dont know whether to scream or cry as i read the accounts on here. It is saddening and maddening all at the same time.

[Nicco]

I'm sorry to came here to write for every lil "evolution"... .but for the moment i feel better only writing/reading here... .after she tried to contact me some days ago by phone (my dad told me she wrote to him toobjust to apologies and tell them she loves them and she's sorry if she's been a delusion for them) ,messages,whatever... .telling me she was "worried for me" without a reply from me... .finally i wrote her a lil phone message tonight... i knowit's wrong probably... .i've been totally out of her range for almost two months now... .but since i got her message i felt a growing violent "tension" inside me... .like to have different conflicting voices whispering in my mind telling me conflicting things... ."wite her... .maybe she's just really worried... just tell her you're fine and nothing more"... ."don't do it,you're gonna regret... .be strong,she's just tryng to clean her conscience"... .finally i did tonight... .just wrote "Hi there... .i'm fine,take care of you and give a hug to (name of he child)"... .i got suddenly a message from her... ."Oki... sorry for have bored you... .thanks you have replied to me... .take care of you too"

5 minutes after,another message... .":)o you hate me?"... .no i don't,my heart... .i hate myself for not having yet moved a step far from you in two months... .i didn't replied,don't know what to do.

You know what to do.

Ignore it.

She knows you are ok. You know why NC is recommended. You can see from the stories here where it will lead if you do.

You have come part way away from her. Don't undo that by going back and engaging with her need for self-soothing.

I've been reading that someone must be "ready" for NC too... .and i don't know if i am... .for a total one... .i mean... .excepet yestarday's messages she got nothing from me since a long time... .i just go lurking on her profile... .damn social forums.

Anyway... .bad bad bad bad day today... .since this morning i just want to cry... .and lurking goes on... .her fb cover says "I miss you"... .my reactions?Happiness at first... .like if i was able to really breathe again after two months... .like if something heavy went away from my chest... .but suddenly after i undesrtood something... .that i'm gonna need to explain... .is not for me... .is for the one she triangulated with... .i know she wrote him many times (and he doesn't reply) she doesn't know that in the while me and him we becomed quit "friends" in some ways... .and he told all the story about this summer too,even the story about the money he offered to help her and she didn't wanted... .gonna have a coffee with him this afternoon and ask... .need to know... .and the stone on my chest is back... .bad,bad day.

[Turkish]

It really makes you feel that we are all describing the same person. Sometimes i dont know whether to scream or cry as i read the accounts on here. It is saddening and maddening all at the same time.

I went back and checked a few people's intro posts just to make sure they weren't dating my ex.

[MammaMia]

Nicco

The Holidays are a very emotional time.  Do you realize that the pain you feel right now is self-inflicted?  Your ex has moved on and you need to accept that because  you cannot change it.  Stop torturing yourself. 

If you are not ready for NC, at least stay off her fb.  I suspect your friend has learned how to be NC since he no longer communicates with her, and maybe he can help you.  Beyond that, and the fact you can commisurate about the ex... .what positive information do you hope to gain?

I am sorry you are having a bad day.  Stay strong.

[Nicco]

Nicco

The Holidays are a very emotional time.  Do you realize that the pain you feel right now is self-inflicted?  Your ex has moved on and you need to accept that because  you cannot change it.  Stop torturing yourself. 

If you are not ready for NC, at least stay off her fb.  I suspect your friend has learned how to be NC since he no longer communicates with her, and maybe he can help you.  Beyond that, and the fact you can commisurate about the ex... .what positive information do you hope to gain?

I am sorry you are having a bad day.  Stay strong.

I'll do it... .you're right.

I only get confusion and doubts that i doesn't need.

And all my family is been under her emotional attack,i found out... .she wrote to me,my parents (who didn't replied) my uncle too (very sensible person who got real good feelings for her... .he replied ((i was fckg pissed off)) but it's not his fault i told him nothing about ignore her so).

She's looking for amotional support and "justifications" from all my family now... .independence eh?bull****!

[MammaMia]

Nicco

I am sorry your ex has now written your family.  All of you were very good to her and her son.  She is just looking for sympathy and justification, as you said.  

PwBPD enjoy tormenting others.  It makes them feel better about themselves and how they mistreat everyone.  Remember... .pwBPD are ALWAYS victims.  Nothing is EVER their fault.  Protect yourself and your family.  If you do not respond, eventually, she will stop.  Consider the source and the fact she is mentally ill.  Her perceptions are skewed and you need not to let her use them as a weapon to hurt you and yours.

Another reason to stay far, far away.  

[Nicco]

Hello there.

Just a lil update about my situation.

SHe wrote me again an "hello... ." last wednesday... .i knew i didn't had to reply but since some days i'm feeling particulary nervous and "raging" with her especially cause she wrote to all my family too so yesterday morning i finally wrote her back just to tell her to don't do it anymore... .and,of course,moved by curiosity to know what she wanted.

I've been cold but not hostile... .here the quick conversation :

ME - Hello

HER - Hello

ME - You had something to tell me?

HER - Not in particular... i just wanted to know how you are... .

ME - Already said i'm fine.

HER - And that i was sorry to have not been able to listen you when you needed... .even if i guess that you absolutely do not care anymore of what i could say or not... .

I know i have not been right with you... .That i did not treat you well when we broke up... .i just did not knew how to manage...

I know its late for explanation... .but i needed to tell you... i am not completely a monster without hearth... .

You might think that what i say now its ridiculous and has non sense... and you are right...

I just wanted to tell you this few words... .i let you in peace because i don't want to bore you more... .

ME - Good

HER - I am scared that you too finally finished by hating me... .well, i guess i deserve it...

ME - it really doesn't matter anymore

HER - I'm sorry for what i've been... .and for what you had to endure with me... .

ME - stop with self pity and to look from affections from my family... .it really doesn't matter

HER - I am not looking for nothing, and i love your family

ME - WIthout resentment

HER - I don't want pity... .what you mean without resentment?

ME - what i said... .without resentment... .but stop it

HER - So why are you replying to me... .anyway...

ME - cause you wrote

HER - Sorry for annoyed you... if you are really fine... I am glad for you... .good bye then... .Thanks for your time...

ME - Ciao

HER - Just one last question... .

ME - ?

HER - Do you hate me?

ME - Ciao (her name)

HER - Just an answer... .Please, do you hate me?... Its ok if you say yes, i just want to know...

I didn't replied anymore... .for two hours i had to fight with myself to don't tell her that i love her and begin to pray her again to change idea... .it's been really hard and exausting for me... .i'm gonna delete her from fb cause it's clear that i speak only to her illness... .like i always done probably... .and that in despite of what she shows she's still "the same"... .she's still writing not often but still doing to my new "friend" she "triangulated" with... .still breaking his b---s tryng to stay in touch with him who's not giving her ANY attention since months... .the new "independent" version of her (a more healty one like she thinks she's now) would not do it off course... .especially after months of attempts without any result... .but once again she doesn't know that we talk about her always and he tells me everything... .she would be very disappointed i guess... .yesterday he told that some weeks ago (after we already broke up) she "menaced" him telling that if he still did not answer she would jump on a plane to come straight here from France to sneak him up... .of course she didn't... .it's crazy that she'll still doing all this... .how can she doesn't see how much her behaviours are just the same like past... .bah... .

And plus i would be curious to know why is so important for her to know if i hate her or not... .i really don't know... .i'll never tell her nothing more probably,i'm tired... .like i wrote inside an another thread i wanted to speak with her once for all to spit out everything and tell her i know way more than she thinks about what she done and do... .but i won't... .i understood would be useless... .i would never have a "true" answer about nothing... .the triangulation man told me the same... ."really,leave it... .her disturb is too strong,would be useless... .whe would just lie and you know that... .move on,let it go... .i don't want to see you like this... .we can't help her and it's not our duty... .only her could decide to heal by a professional help... .don't look for something you can't have... .and plus,stop with this crazy idea to have her back... .in 6 months-1 year you would find yourself in the same situation,cause she doesn't find peace nowhere with no one... .go out from this story,is better"... .he's a wise man and im happy that we talk... .is another reason why i don't want to tell her all those things i discovered thanks to him... .cause she would be raging with him and give him many problems for sure... .and he doesn't deserves this... .and i want to keep my good realtion with him cause is important for me... .so i prefer to stay in silence and focus on this healty friendship instead of do a big mess that could destroy it just to ask her questions she would never really replies... .it really doesn't matter... .

Now i'm completely splitten you know... .i love her,i hate her... .i think she's wonderful,i think she's terrible... .i desperately want her back,i'm scared that this could happen cause i know would be VERY wrong and poisoning for me... .imiss her,i'm fine alone... .i'm raging with her,i've pity for her... .she destroyed me,she probably gave me a story that will makes me stonger... .she completely setted me in the fog,she revealed me who i really am... .i love her i love her i love her she's amazing,beautiful,unique,my soulmate... .i hate her i hate her i hate her,she's a terrible,insensible,incapable of love and empathy person who just destroyed me... .i NEVER felt so ambivalent,never... ."i hate you,don't leave me"... .i'm deeply lost in this concept now,i'm feeling terribly like a pwBPD right now... .is like if i had traded her life with mine... .now she looking as if she's having fun,friends,having a full life in a big city and everything's ok... .and me i'm the one needing,painful,cryng,depressed,BPD... .it's crazy... .before we met WAS EXACTLY THE CONTRARY... .how i reached this point... .she got my life and me i got her life... .is terrible... .

Next step,delete her from everywhere... .it's just poisoning... .maybe already after i finish to write here... .

[Waifed]

One day at a time Nicco. I know if is so hard in the beginning but you will once again become that strong person that you once were before. Work on yourself and before you know it you will be smiling and moving to the new and improved you. Hang in there.

[Ironmanrises]

She wants you to feel guilty with asking "do you hate me?". As soon as you feel guilty, that reopened the door further for her to renter your world. That is what she wants. And as soon as that happens, the countdown starts to the day she gets triggered again, and starts to re devalue you once more in a similar fashion as first time. Mine guilt tripped me successfully into me letting her back in for round 2 when she asked "Just answer this one question, do you miss me Ironmanfalls?"  As soon as I answered her "Yes", I betrayed myself and the countdown started to the very day when she got triggered again. No difference. Now I am here. Broken.

[LaSuede]

Hmm, recognize a lot from that conversation.

She never have or got your life. You only feel so.

And noone "get" anything from who you are, if not letting them.

They can steal physical stuff from you, they can damage your feelings. But never "take" what is you, if you do not let it happen... .then that is "you" too, then you are someone letting that happen.

Sorry, to be frank. I say it as much, more, to myself.

The only way "out" is you focusing really on you and your life.

And you know it. Perfectly.

Be very cautious by ruin any relationship that helps you now, like the "triangulated" man.

And ask yourself, who and what else can make you feel better?

Do you have any Therapist? Is there any support to heal? Do you do any physical sport?

I believe, to be honest, you do not "love" her anymore, not even hating her.

You love WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN her and you together, what you believed in.

What you wanted and worked so hard to have.

That is mostly the hardest to let go of. "What could have been... ." and all the effort and struggles put down in someone that just became "nothing" but pain.

I believe, from my point of view, the "hate" is because she destroyed your dreams and because you have fought for "nothing".

The problem is, if you still continue seeking "what could have been" and dreaming about her, you will understand less of what there is, who she is for real, who you are, and what you have for real and what you don't have, and you will loose more of what there is. More of yourself and "your life".

Do you really?

Keep on posting here, keep on finding more and more ways to feel better.

I am sure you will make it. This is a phase you need to go thru too, look upon the feelings you have and analyse them truly, for you, try to not put her too responsible for your wellbeing or not wellbeing. You are.

Use your anger/hate to build yourself up, instead of tear yourself down. Direct your love towards people, animal, things that give back or just make you feel good in directing love towards. Like towards yourself and your physical and mental being.

Keep on fighting those demons, they will not like it and dissapear, slowly probably, but with you stronger on the other end. I assure you.

You have you, and you are a wonderful person that has stand up for your woman, her son and for love.

That love is no more, neither the woman. But there is you and love in general. (Even the son perhaps, one day, when you can have your own contact with each other).

[MammaMia]

Nicco

It is time to stop the self-torture.  You can see where it gets you... .exactly where she wants you.  Accept that it is OVER.  She is teasing you and manipulating your family.  You do not hate her... .but remember pity and false hope are also BPD tools and she will use them IF YOU ALLOW IT.

Stop responding.  Stop opening the door.  Go NC and stay there. 

Time to take care of Nicco.  You deserve better than she is willing to give.  Do not settle for a toxic relationship that only causes you pain.

[Nicco]

Thanks for support.

I passed through some really bad days but i don't stop focus on my healing pattern for this... .some days are just worst and i fell overwhelmed by my feelings and sensation but thanks god it's not like that the most part of my days... .

@LaSuede

It's hard to stop to think at "what could have been... ." evething looked and felt so real... .and powerful... .guess it's been,at least for me.

I have no therapist and not looking for one... .i don't feel in need... .i have many friends to have fun with and my family is a big support too... .and my life should keep me busy enough since i'm making the final steps to get my university degree while i'm working too.

I'll keep your advices in mind,thanks

I blocked her everywhere,i just desire to accept some things and move on this situation.

[LaSuede]

Yes, it's very hard.

Then slowly more and more days come when you, at least I, start to see what there was - or is now.

And you will not want any of it.

I am pretty sure... .

Good you have strategies making you feel good.

[Nicco]

Yes, it's very hard.

Then slowly more and more days come when you, at least I, start to see what there was - or is now.

And you will not want any of it.

I am pretty sure... .

Good you have strategies making you feel good.

There's something make me worried about.

Wherever i go,whatever i do,whoever i see... .i noticed that after this relationship i continue to compare my friends (ALL of them,the closest too) and always find them lack of something... .i know it's wrong (it MUST be wrong) but in my mind i still think at her like an amazing person who has no equal in the world... .talking about her "good" qualities of course... .in despite of all her issues and her disorder,i still find her a more interesting,entertaining,charming person than everyone else... .i still find her soul the only true mirror of mine and the one i would keep closest to me.

Someone else experienced the same?

[Turkish]

.in despite of all her issues and her disorder,i still find her a more interesting,entertaining,charming person than everyone else... .i still find her soul the only true mirror of mine and the one i would keep closest to me.

Someone else experienced the same?

Mine mirrored the dutiful mother and responsible parent, for me, her family, and her culture (very family oriented). In her double life, however, she mirrors whom she hangs with, a 32 year old woman hanging out with partiers and now a college-bf. I found stuff she wrote to him... .very similar to what she started writing to me in the beginning.

What I conclude from this: she is FAKE.

Her identity is whatever she projects to attach to (romantically or otherwise). That is because her identity is fractured, the coping mechanism for a person who isn't whole. I may be more shy in one situation, or more serious, or funnier in another, but I am the same person all of the time.

A mirror shows us a few things... .it shows us who we are, but it also shows us who we are not.

[Nicco]

She wants you to feel guilty with asking "do you hate me?". As soon as you feel guilty, that reopened the door further for her to renter your world. That is what she wants. And as soon as that happens, the countdown starts to the day she gets triggered again, and starts to re devalue you once more in a similar fashion as first time. Mine guilt tripped me successfully into me letting her back in for round 2 when she asked "Just answer this one question, do you miss me Ironmanfalls?"  As soon as I answered her "Yes", I betrayed myself and the countdown started to the very day when she got triggered again. No difference. Now I am here. Broken.

Make me feel guilty?For which purpose?... .it's her who left me.

Anyway i let her live with this doubt... .even cause i'm pretty sure she doesn't care at all.

[Nicco]

.in despite of all her issues and her disorder,i still find her a more interesting,entertaining,charming person than everyone else... .i still find her soul the only true mirror of mine and the one i would keep closest to me.

Someone else experienced the same?

Mine mirrored the dutiful mother and responsible parent, for me, her family, and her culture (very family oriented). In her double life, however, she mirrors whom she hangs with, a 32 year old woman hanging out with partiers and now a college-bf. I found stuff she wrote to him... .very similar to what she started writing to me in the beginning.

What I conclude from this: she is FAKE.

Her identity is whatever she projects to attach to (romantically or otherwise). That is because her identity is fractured, the coping mechanism for a person who isn't whole. I may be more shy in one situation, or more serious, or funnier in another, but I am the same person all of the time.

A mirror shows us a few things... .it shows us who we are, but it also shows us who we are not.

Don't know.

Need to think about it... .but her "soul"... .what is amazing in her... .is "original"... .is not a reflection of someone else... .at least,is what i believe and what i saw.

[Ironmanrises]

Yes, she left you, but has to make it seem like you left her so she reverse guilt trips you.

[Nicco]

Yes, she left you, but has to make it seem like you left her so she reverse guilt trips you.

i really don't get this,sorry :S

I have another theory too... .she always painted herself like "the one always misunderstood fighting alone against the entire world" and stuff like that... .maybe she just needs to reinforce this thought... .like "you see?i'm right,everyone hate me,i'm alone like always"... .like if she would need to feel like a martyr to go on more easily.

[Ironmanrises]

In her mind, in order for her not to paint herself black, she has to paint you black. It can't be her fault, so it must be your fault. Even though she left you, she has to reverse it so the blame isn't on her. Get it?

[Nicco]

In her mind, in order for her not to paint herself black, she has to paint you black. It can't be her fault, so it must be your fault. Even though she left you, she has to reverse it so the blame isn't on her. Get it?

I understood the mechanism but i still don't understand why knowing i hate her (absolutely not true) should make her feels "better"... .maybe thinking that i hate her helps her to feel a less painful loss... .really don't know.

Plus,during the devaluation she blamed me about everything i done (and NOT done),true,but in the end she told me that if our relationship failed is not completely my fault and she knows that.

And you know what,hear from her such a rational speech about us,our relationship,our mistakes etc etc hurts me a lot cause i always think that maybe her BPD isn't so strong and that maybe there was a way to handle it.

[LaSuede]

I know Nicco, my ex have had really reasonable periods - which has made the "process" longer and the falls higher, in a sense. Now he is sicker than ever. Luckily, his parents (finally) are there more for him and I really hope he will find his way.

Anyhow, to answer to your thoughts.

I believe it's not about her "feeling better by knowing you hate her".

It's about in what emotional position she feels most comfortable.

I think, it might be wrong, her comfort-zone is:

To be "hated" (she hates herself).

To be missunderstood (she does not know who she is really or feels what is herself).

To say you abandon her (cause this is what she feels will happen).

To abandon your relationship (because of this fear).

It's nothing that deeply make her feel good - especially not in a longterm perspective.

But it's a pattern so deeply though, that it's the "place to be" which makes her more comfortable.

Feelings to a BPD becomes the truth.

A feeling is always true as a feeling, but it might not be the reality.

That we know.

To a pwBPD what she feels becomes the reality.

If her feelings change, which they probably do, it changes the reality.

To use my ex as an example - he could feel and therefore understand the worst thing ever was to hit a child.

Then he could meet someone that very quickly convinced him at a bar or elsewhere (a person he did not even know) - that it's ok to hit. So it becomes in a very short instance ok from my ex point of view, too.

This because he has not a real sense of self. What does he belive really... ?

Also if he feels destroyed because his brother violated him as a child - child abuse becomes an absolute no-no.

He feels that (and he knows it's not also in rational way).

But if he is angry with our kid he would argue about the accurance in punishing him,

no matter how young or old or vulnerable our kid would be... .(he luckily did not succeeded really any time).

This as one of many examples.

He could believe buying sex was horrible, if he felt horrible by what he had done himself in the past - or even opposed when more healthy, he felt safe within a sexual context. And wanted to do good.

Or feeling the opposite he can find the most "reasonable" arguments.

You can act and find reasonable arguments in acting to a feeling of course, it's human and we are doing it on a regularely basis. But to also see them as the full, 100% reality, no matter if it was said the opposite half an hour ago

- that's another story. That is emotional disorder.

I could be called a "hiting jew" or the next day a "hiting nazi"... .(true!)

And really my ex believed in both as a reality - it was not only an angry statement to hurt me.

I think this is also why a pwBPD has so hard to grasp how they hurt their environment.

Cause it's tru what the feel and say! It's not even mean... .

We know better.

We know this is part of the roller-coaster.

Whenever my ex found ways to get out of that unhealthy comfort-zone of his.

When he with help or sometimes even by himself stepped aside from making feelings

as jelousy, victimization, paranoia the reality - finding more and more trust we could live better.

He trusted me the most (even though he did not trust me, at least I was the person he trusted the most).

But anyhow, in the end of the day, this made the falls and stakes higher.

Hence: the better periods, the worse after.

And the sureness of feelings (anger, jelousy, compulsive addiction etc) the stronger... .and more impulsively acted on.

Such as when your ex convinced herself, almost you, to prostitute herself was a reasonable act... .no matter the pain in it, reasonable in her "situation".

My ex hit back to his comfort zone as a boomerang, I would be surprised if your ex would not.

Sorry to say.

When I started to come to this forum I had enormously much guilt, cause I believed "what if I just... ."

What if I knew more, how do deal with it better, did more, were more kind, more understanding, less stressed by the situation etc - it would have been better.

Also I doubted: is it me who are the pwBPD?

Maybe in one sense our life could have been better, yes, if "what if... .".

Meanwhile now, after knowing more, my ex has fallen the worst, done the worst things, and I feel the struggle would have killed me. It already gave me PTSD.

It's not black and white - not for us non-BPD's either.

Just because your ex is reasonable, from time to time (of course, otherwise it would have been really crazy to be with her) it does not mean you are to blame for the situation.

Just because you would have done more, it does not mean it would have worked better -

maybe it would have worked worse.

And your loved one left you, that is not easy, neither with a pwBPD or not.

You will ruminate. Face it.

I believe, reading your texts, it looks like you are facing a crossroad.

And I think no matter what other people say here, you must listen within - and be aware of what is YOUR comfort zone too. It might be within an abusive relationship, being co-dependent.

Only you know for sure.

Lately I have been facing a lot of non-nice sides with myself within that position.

And I have to work with it. But I do not need my ex for that. The opposite.

He triggs my unhealthy comfort-zone... .

He is not the center of my wellbeing, the opposite.

I am rather sure you know when you are "lying" to yourself and when you are facing yourself in good,

no matter the pain. It's not comfortable, no, to face your weak sides.

But most probably healthier than becoming blindly looking towards a spot and a person that has hurt you a lot.

Repeatingly.

Or you decide that this life with her or someone like her is how you want to live, in such a roller-coaster and in such a pain. If it's with her or someone else, maybe it means you should check out the group "improving a relationship" here at the forum... ? There is no right and wrong in all this. Just be aware and be very careful with yourself.

That is my only real recommendation.

It would be sad if you got more damaged then already shown.

Good luck.

[Surnia]

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