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Author Topic: You will start to attract much healthier people into you life when you do this.  (Read 6260 times)
Visitor
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« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2014, 06:42:51 AM »

Stop giving you partner the power. Draw those lines in the sand and be willing to walk away if they are crossed.

I'm glad you were able to walk away before you got hurt Visitor.  It also sounds like you have a somewhat avoidant attachment style, where if anyone threatens your independence you're outta there.  Sure, being alone is always an option, but nowhere near as good as being in a great relationship, and in great relationships partners challenge each other and build partnerships, let go of the need to control, become interdependent, all of which requires letting the walls down and letting someone in.  Granted, letting someone with a personality disorder in is a bad move, but a great relationship can't happen without it.

Visitor.

While you make some valid comments, you did so in a very abrasive, arrogant manner.

If you detached so successfully from your exBPD and seem to have all the answers... .what are you doing on  this board?

Are you just here to enlighten us poor boundary less souls?.

I am sure that someone more educated in phycology than myself will be able to give you a few personality pointers to get you started.

Thank you for the reply Big. A couple of people have also said these words are arrogant and I do understand.

Some people (like me) like to say it straight, to the point and how it is. This can come across as harsh/arrogant.

Whether I sprinkle it with sugar or not I believe this is how it is and this is how I will say it.
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« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2014, 06:50:09 AM »

Some people, like myself, started out with a strong sense of personal boundaries before getting involved with a PD'd SO.

I had no issues with honoring my boundaries and holding others accountable if they crossed them.

That is until I met what I thought was the love of my life and the person I was planning on spending the rest of my

life with. I realized far too late just how many boundaries I allowed her to cross and what that did to my self-esteem.

When I was in the middle of an abusive relationship I'd do a lot just to keep the peace including, allowing my w to disregard my boundaries.

It was instinctual.

I seemed to have a tacit understanding that, the softer my boundaries were, the less friction I created in the relationship.

It was a survival instinct. I have only been conscious of this in retrospect.

My boundaries melted away from the fear of greater conflict.

From what I've gathered, boundaries from the perspective of PD is perceived as withholding love. 

If you withhold love it triggers their abandonment issues. There's always a price to pay when you trigger that beast.

Hi Risingsun

If anybody has been through this experience they should now know that if they do not have clear boundaries and drop them in the hope that they can get along better with another person then they will lose respect. Respect for themselves and their partner will not respect them.

Everybody has a sad story about their previous relationship but its how we now take these lessons and apply them to our future ones.

Will history predict the future or will our history give us the knowledge and power to CHANGE the future and shape it how we want it.

We can only change our futures if we give ourselves the power to do so.









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« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2014, 07:00:38 AM »

I don't think Visitor says anything that isn't true, the problem is is simplifies the situation. He is totally right that boundaries must be strong and enforced.

Unfortunately the real world isn't so simple.

I was known for having good boundaries with women, I never stood for any nonsense. However, I was targeted at the very optimum time - days after splitting with an ex. I wasnt interested in the BPD predator, but she was like a computer-designed predator, saying precisely the right thing at the right moment, at a time when I was temporarily receptive. She instinctively adapted according to the situation, and drew me in very verrrry slowwwly over several months. I was on my guard for a long time, and she slowly softened that by saying exactly the right things, acting the right way.  She would bide her time for weeks until ready to strike. She carefully learned my little insecurities and weaknesses, and would save them up then use them all against me in a sudden, carefully timed self-esteem assassination. Each time I was ready to walk, and she would wake up apologetic, ready to seek professional help, full of promises. Of course I shouldn't have listened, but it was a bombardment.

The first time I walked myself, she must have called me 500 times, promised she didnt want me back, just wanted to apologise, etc.

Each time she took a little more of my strength away, and educated herself a little for the next time.

Fast forward a year or so, and I am exhausted, confused, questioning my own sanity, and the rages are so frequent and violent that I literally can't think during them.

My mistake wasn't not walking - I must have walked a dozen times. It was to not cut her off totally when I walked, meaning I was sucked back in by promises and empty words. The first time, I can be excused for giving it another chance, having hope that she had really learned. By the 10th time I was just to exhausted to think straight.
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« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2014, 08:00:48 AM »

I don't think Visitor says anything that isn't true, the problem is is simplifies the situation. He is totally right that boundaries must be strong and enforced.

Unfortunately the real world isn't so simple.

I was known for having good boundaries with women, I never stood for any nonsense. However, I was targeted at the very optimum time - days after splitting with an ex. I wasnt interested in the BPD predator, but she was like a computer-designed predator, saying precisely the right thing at the right moment, at a time when I was temporarily receptive. She instinctively adapted according to the situation, and drew me in very verrrry slowwwly over several months. I was on my guard for a long time, and she slowly softened that by saying exactly the right things, acting the right way.  She would bide her time for weeks until ready to strike. She carefully learned my little insecurities and weaknesses, and would save them up then use them all against me in a sudden, carefully timed self-esteem assassination. Each time I was ready to walk, and she would wake up apologetic, ready to seek professional help, full of promises. Of course I shouldn't have listened, but it was a bombardment.

The first time I walked myself, she must have called me 500 times, promised she didnt want me back, just wanted to apologise, etc.

Each time she took a little more of my strength away, and educated herself a little for the next time.

Fast forward a year or so, and I am exhausted, confused, questioning my own sanity, and the rages are so frequent and violent that I literally can't think during them.

My mistake wasn't not walking - I must have walked a dozen times. It was to not cut her off totally when I walked, meaning I was sucked back in by promises and empty words. The first time, I can be excused for giving it another chance, having hope that she had really learned. By the 10th time I was just to exhausted to think straight.

Hi Camuse

Great reply thank you. I know what you mean by simplifying things. Somebody on here also noted that its like saying to an alcoholic "all you have to do is stop drinking" or saying to a fat person "all you have to do is stop eating".

Of course I understand that it is not that simple. There is a whole journey that person which will probably be the hardest journey of that persons life. It is one that will consume their whole life.

That said. If an alcoholic said "it's the whiskeys fault that I am an alcoholic"... if the obese person said "Its the foods fault that I am obese"  Would you accept that?

Does that mean that in order for that person to be sober he/she would have to rid the world of alcohol?... would there need to be no food containing fats and sugars in order for the fat person to become thin?

No of course not. If an alcoholic wants to become sober he/she must take full responsibility for it and make changes to his/her life. The external temptations are going to be all around them but it is his or her choice in that moment that will shape the future.

As much as I am talking about boundaries I am also talking about the power we give ourselves. Not letting something external like a partner dictate our lives.

This has nothing to do with BP but only the other day I had a friend moaning at me about how his girlfriend treats him. Doesn't let him go out with his friends, moans at him about this and that... .He got the same answer as any of my other friends get about their partners YOU CHOOSE TO STAY IN THE RELATIONSHIP SO IT'S YOUR PROBLEM!... I don't want to hear about it!... if you dont like it and she isnt treating how you want to be treated then grow some balls and do something about it. It's YOUR choice not hers!

I know this is a forum for people who have detached from a failed relationship and a lot of you are still hurting from it but well done!... you have taken the first big step making a huge change in your life and you have finally stood up for yourself.

A lot of you have been "split black" or left by your partners but deep down you know it was for a reason and you know it wasn't going to work out. Even if you get back with them the relationship is doomed.

Work on yourselves now. Let this build your character. There are millions of other people in the world and with your new found confidence and life lessons somebody will come into your life and you will forget all about the pain this other person caused.

I guarantee you all have some wonderful qualities that your new partner will love you for     Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) 



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« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2014, 08:29:47 AM »

You are completely right, of course. I'm just explaining how things can creep up on you.

I never intended to become a smoker, for example. Eventually I stopped smoking, but it was quite a while between realising it was not a good idea, and getting away from it. Of course, I could have just stopped putting cigarettes in my mouth. But many very intelligent people who know they shouldn't smoke, continue to do so. None decide to become regular smokers - it crept up on them without them realising they were hooked until it is too late.

These relationships, in my opinion, create an even stronger chemical addiction which is very painful to cut off suddenly, despite being the best option. The push pull has an effect on the brain, a real effect which causes real unpleasantness when it stops. Much worse than the powerful withdrawal from nicotine, for me!

The junkie knows he should stop injecting heroin, but i'm afraid telling addicts "just stop using" has not proven to be very effective as a treatment program Smiling (click to insert in post)

Sometimes you have to get your brain processes in order so you can handle the changes when your addictive supply is stopped, and that's hard to do when the supply is following you round, phoning trying to get back in your system.

Probably you can compare it to an alcoholic who manages to stop, is handling the horrible withdrawal, but has someone chasing him all round town with a can of beer.

It's hard being a human being, not everything is decided on logic and going against the messages from your mind is extremely difficult, by design. I knew my BPD was no good, unpleasant, hopeless, but I still felt horrific pain when she was gone, and sometimes I just wanted the pain to stop - that's why recycling is so difficult to resist.

We are all fortunate to have survived a nightmare experience, which will shape us forever - ultimately for the very better.
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« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2014, 08:42:13 AM »

Interestingly, my uexBPD used to often say, "You're so independent," and "You look after yourself so well," "I'm not sure I could settle down with someone who has his act together as well as you do," and even "You could kick me out at any time and I have no where to go." She didn't say it as a compliment though -said it with sadness, knowing that she couldn't get away with it forever and that eventually I would enforce my boundaries for good, and she had to start making other plans. Who knows what would have happened if she hadn't managed to find another attachment when she did, but I think she knew her days of abusing me were numbered and it terrified her. Once I'd finished with her the first time, I was doomed of course - she recycled me then an many times afterwards, but she knew she had to find a weaker replacement from that day onwards and I suspect she started looking for it the very next day.
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« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2014, 09:25:04 AM »

Interestingly, my uexBPD used to often say, "You're so independent," and "You look after yourself so well," "I'm not sure I could settle down with someone who has his act together as well as you do," and even "You could kick me out at any time and I have no where to go." She didn't say it as a compliment though -said it with sadness, knowing that she couldn't get away with it forever and that eventually I would enforce my boundaries for good, and she had to start making other plans. Who knows what would have happened if she hadn't managed to find another attachment when she did, but I think she knew her days of abusing me were numbered and it terrified her. Once I'd finished with her the first time, I was doomed of course - she recycled me then an many times afterwards, but she knew she had to find a weaker replacement from that day onwards and I suspect she started looking for it the very next day.

Sounds like your ex was pretty hot too. It's amazing how much a guy will let a girl get away with based on her looks. Many other factors of course but this will be a big one.

You're right my ex wasnt really that hot but she was nice enough. She looked good going out but not that good naked in bed without the make up and hair done etc.

When you say she abused you can you give a couple of examples?


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« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2014, 09:46:39 AM »

Excerpt
Sounds like your ex was pretty hot too. It's amazing how much a guy will let a girl get away with based on her looks. Many other factors of course but this will be a big one.

She was very pretty facially, but I didn't fancy her when I met her - she was quite a big girl - but she lost a lot of weight very fast once we met because of drug abuse and bulemia - mostly hidden from me. I don't think her looks was why I put up with it specifically. Sometimes I did think she was very beautiful, when she was peaceful and smiling. But during her rages I found her very ugly.


Excerpt
When you say she abused you can you give a couple of examples?

Raging, belittlement, insults, some violence, isolation, lies, cheating, take your pick.[/quote]
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« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2014, 09:57:54 AM »

Basically you can say that everything anyone ever does to you is your own fault because you chose to put up with it. That's what many of those self-help people will tell you.

That you start to attract people the day you start saying no, that's what the pick up artist-people tell you.

The reality is different and much more complicated.
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« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2014, 10:31:40 AM »

Sometimes I did think she was very beautiful, when she was peaceful and smiling. But during her rages I found her very ugly.

I know what you mean. My ex BPD used to have this horrible crying face. Her lips used to curl up and her eys scrunched up. It was a real put off!


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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2014, 10:51:31 AM »

Excerpt
Don't let the idolization she has or had for you blur these boundaries. It's a very powerful thing for a person to be able to walk away if these are not being respected.

My apologies I'm a little late to join. I didn't have boundaries with the self or boundaries with others.

I lacked personal boundaries but the idealization phase was wonderful. It was intoxicating. I had never felt anything like it in my life.

I grew up with a narcissistic father and I wasn't validated, paid attention to and it was a one-way relationship. Her attention and validation was what I was attracted to, because of my FOO. You make a very good point with boundaries. I think it goes back to your FOO.

Did you have a validating environment growing up?
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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2014, 11:03:03 AM »

WOW! This is helpful? Maybe in seeing more of what is out there that I also would like to avoid.

First: Giving a simple solution and not really understanding how it works for most of us. Having yourself admitted you did not experience the whole cycle.

Second: Making no excuses for your attitude while people are justifying their behavior to you! Why?

And Now: Making fun of the way a person looks when they cry?

This is ridiculous
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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2014, 11:22:05 AM »

Oh how I wish things were this simple. Yes, boundaries are important, but having been gaslighted it can sometimes be difficult to tell when these boundaries have been breached.

My psychologist explained to me why I have often been in relationships with pwPDs. My mother was NPD, and so a lot of PD behaviour to me is just normal. I don't notice it. It's that simple, it's just normality to me. Therefore it's only when the behaviour significantly escalates that I notice it. Others women, those who didn't have a PD parent, would probably have left the relationship earlier than I did. I wait until behaviour is far more extreme, by which time I'm trauma bonded and more involved. It's not that I've been miserable up until that point, it's just seemed like normal life.

As for ending things due to certain behaviour, as I said, I've been gaslighted by an abusive partner. He'd nudge me out of the way, and say "it wasn't a push, I was just moving you out of the way". He'd punch me in the thigh, and say it was just friendly, horsing around. Both those things are violent - do I end a marriage because of them? Do I wait to see if there's more, clear-cut violence? Because by that time my boundaries have actually lowered a bit: "the last time he pushed me it wasn't that bad, I wasn't hurt, so why would I end the marriage and break up the family? He laughed about it so he couldn't have meant it?". Over time the pushes get harder but he's still brushing it off as a joke and my boundaries have lowered over the years to adapt and normalise his behaviour.

It's rare that someone IMMEDIATELY breaches your boundaries. I have a non-violence boundary too, so do most people, yet I found myself in a marriage that was abusive. I have letters from solicitors and psychologists testifying it was abusive, and yet still I doubt it. He pushed me, punched me and sexually assaulted me, and yet I still say "oh but he wasn't physically violent". Why? Because my boundaries were breached very very subtly over a long period of time so that I didn't notice it happening and I adjusted to it as we went along.

This is a common phenomenon. Yes, establish boundaries and stick to them, but saying someone brought it all on themselves by not having boundaries is oversimplifying and can look worryingly like victim-blaming... .
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2014, 12:48:55 PM »

Thank you for the reply Big. A couple of people have also said these words are arrogant and I do understand.

Some people (like me) like to say it straight, to the point and how it is. This can come across as harsh/arrogant.

Whether I sprinkle it with sugar or not I believe this is how it is and this is how I will say it.

Visitor,

I could go to fat camp and proclaim to every one in the room that if they had simply eaten less and exercised more, they would not be fat.  I could go to a domestic violence victim and say, if you had just taken the kids and moved out you would have avoided the incident.  I could say to the alcoholic, just don't drink, dude.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

If I do this, am I shooting them straight - forgoing the sprinkles and sugar - and saying how I believe it is?  Am I helping or am I shaming them for not knowing better?  

I think somewhere in this mix is the generation of the reaction you are getting.

People who are overweight know that food intake/exercise is the mechanics to weight loss.  Highly stressful jobs, working long hours, thyroid disorders, life transitions, illness, injury, depression, money problems, smoking cessation, eating disorders, etc. are often the factors the led to being overweight. And recovering from being overweight is very different than not becoming overweight.

The same is true with these relationships.  Acute emotional crisis (e.g., divorce, loss of a partner, loss of employment, negative life event) or chronic FOO issues or depressions, alcoholism, mid-life crisis, etc. are often the factors the lead to these relationships.  And recovering from being in a high conflict/emotionally instable relationship is very different from avoiding one.

A second point is that "boundaries" won't "attract much healthier people into you life" anymore than a fence around your house will attract a good dog.  Boundaries help us repel people or behaviors that violate our values.  Attracting healthier people into our life going forward is usually about reassessing our own values, our lifestyle, and the people we seek out.  

I would say to anybody stuck in this chaos to take a bit of time out and really think about what your boundaries are. There doesn't have to be hundreds of them maybe just five or 6.

1. I do not except cheating any shape or form. If this happens I am gone

2. I will not accept being called horrible names

3. The silent treatment is for children. If you give me the silent treatment then see you later I'm going out to have some fun. Let me know if you're ready to stop sulking.

4.  Any form of violence is completely unacceptable in all shapes and forms with no exception.

5. If you want to discuss something then I am open to a calm conversation. I understand that all couples argue but a full on rage attack with shouting is unacceptable.

Notwithstanding what I said above, certainly this is good advice.  Values/boundaries are an important aspect of dating and relationships and is a big part of the recovery platform here.

We teach people how to treat us.

I hope this helps put all sides in perspective.  The key benefit of a peer support group is to be able to talk to people that are strong and have good direction, but have the experience to be empathetic.

Skip
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2014, 01:30:09 PM »

It's amazing how much a guy will let a girl get away with based on her looks. Many other factors of course but this will be a big one.

You know, I think in a lot of our cases, looks really aren't the driving factor. It's not the fact that they're hot. My ex w/BPD was cute, but I've dated girls that were much "hotter" than she was, and I never got caught up with them in the same way. I think for a lot of us it had MUCH more to do with the way they made us feel. Putting us up on a pedestal. Treating us like we were the most important person in the world. Basically feeding our egos in ways we had never experienced before.

If it were something as simple and superficial as what they looked like, we wouldn't get hooked in the way we do.
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« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2014, 01:31:50 PM »

The same is true with these relationships.  Acute emotional crisis (e.g., divorce, loss of a partner, loss of employment, negative life event) or chronic FOO issues or depressions, alcoholism, mid-life crisis, etc. are often the factors the lead to these relationships.  And recovering from being in a high conflict/emotionally instable relationship is very different from avoiding one.

A second point is that "boundaries" won't "attract much healthier people into you life" anymore than a fence around your house will attract a good dog.  Boundaries help us repel people or behaviors that violate our values.  Attracting healthier people into our life going forward is usually about reassessing our own values, our lifestyle, and the people we seek out.

Thank you for summing up my situation so well Skip.  I can tick the box of most of the factors that can lead to these relationships.  If I had not been in such a vulnerable state after my mother died I do not think that  I would have got involved with the expwBPD.

Yes we do have to take ownership of our boundaries especially so we do not recycle the relationship causing more psychological harm to ourselves.

Yes we do need to take a hard look at the part we played in the dysfunctional relationship.

I am looking at the entire situation as  an opportunity for personal growth and with the help of a councilor I am looking at FOO issues.


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« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2014, 03:17:46 PM »

I didn't even go out with a pwBPD, only befriended and even I was drawn into trusting them, sympathising with them and even liking them before they massively screwed me over.

If you have a kind and open heart, are emotionally available to the persons who come in and out of your life, like I would say most of the community here then setting boundaries can be tough at times especially with people like those with BPD. They seem to know the tricks, know what makes you tick and know exactly how to manipulate you.

Additionally when you really like someone, and want them in your life, the goal-post can change, I think it was Skip who said something about re-accessing values and I completely agree with that. If we had fiercely rigid set rules and guidelines about everything in life all the time we would miss out on so many opportunities. Besides you can't honestly have the exact some boundaries for every single person in your life, surely? A stranger must abide by different boundaries for me than say someone who has been a friend for many years. If I judged everyone I met by the exact same rules and didn't access the situation and the character of the person I'd probably never make any friends/relationships.

In connection to that, you say earlier, Visitor, about your clean cut boundaries of essentially 'these are the rules, or I leave'. Very, 'my way or the highway' and, if I am to be so bold, a little like throwing your toys out of the pram if you don't get your way. Personally, I would hate to be with someone like that, someone constantly threatening to leave due to strict codes of conduct. Additionally, this concept of respect, I respect a man who stands up for himself and what he believes however I certainly do not respect a man who uses unwavering personal laws as reasons to bail without even a mild attempt at discussion and possibly compromise. A relationship is a two way thing you have to hear the other person out because their boundaries and values may not be the same and I doubt two peoples' are ever exactly the same so their has to be some adjustment in order for a loving and healthy relationship to blossom.

Do not get me wrong! Things such as physical violence in a relationship are never ok but even then there are some grey areas. For example:

- Some time ago I dated a guy who at one point put his hand to my face and pushed me into a wall in front of a group of our friends, it was no accident and he did not even attempt an apology; he just saw it as larking about. That was totally unacceptable, I stayed but I know now I was a joke for doing that.

- In my next relationship my bf and I were play fighting on the sofa while visiting some friends. He made a motion miming elbowing me in the gut, unfortunately I moved and he ended up hitting me square in the face and giving me a black eye. Followed were loads of kisses, cuddles and 'wow I am so sorry's!'. Still a form of aggressive physical contact in a relationship but a complete accident.

Arguably, by your boundaries, I should have said goodbye to both of them then and there; does that really sound fair? It's just not always that clear, especially off the bat. Who knows that second guy could have slowly but surely introduced more violence into the relationship, ensuring all were accompanied by apologies to throw me off; that does happen and it is still abuse but you can't tell from that first hit (excuse the pun).

My run in with a pwBPD has made me extremely emotionally unavailable and quite defensive and suspicious of others and now I rigorously keep to my boundaries. Guess what... .I have met no one since I ended my last relationship now nearly a year and a half ago. No new relationship, very few new friendships, it's been a nightmare. I'm coming to realise that I need to start opening up again, be more emotionally available and welcoming of the new experiences and feelings people bring.

Without getting too personal, Visitor, I have to question why you are here if you have it so together, is it curiosity? Or another reason. Again, if I can be so bold, from your statements, you sound rather emotionally unavailable yourself and perhaps have some commitment issues. You do raise some good points but it's just not all the black and white or clear cut.



P.S. You also sound disturbingly like someone I know... .it's making me very nervous.
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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2014, 04:04:49 PM »

Actually, the only person I know who lives like that - who has really clear cut boundaries and rigorously cuts people out of his life if they step over them - is a sociopath. A very dear friend, but a sociopath all the same. And of course being a sociopath he feels no regret or sadness over doing it, which is really really handy. At the moment I could do with some of that.
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« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2014, 04:39:42 PM »

Actually, the only person I know who lives like that - who has really clear cut boundaries and rigorously cuts people out of his life if they step over them - is a sociopath. A very dear friend, but a sociopath all the same. And of course being a sociopath he feels no regret or sadness over doing it, which is really really handy. At the moment I could do with some of that.

I think that to be in a relationship that we need boundaries and need to respect boundaries and both people need to be aware of boundaries.

Also... your boundaries are going to need to be a little flexible at times... .(good communication and discussion facilitate this)... .but it is not a perfect world... .And "my" experience would tell me that none of what I just typed is possible with a pwBPD. Sad but true.

And since a pwBPD is so deceptive ... .it is hard to know what you are getting into initially because they are soo soo good at deception.

They look at a decent, honest, caring, trusting person as prey.
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Serenitytoo

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« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2014, 05:17:42 PM »

Oh how I wish things were this simple. Yes, boundaries are important, but having been gaslighted it can sometimes be difficult to tell when these boundaries have been breached.

My psychologist explained to me why I have often been in relationships with pwPDs. My mother was NPD, and so a lot of PD behaviour to me is just normal. I don't notice it. It's that simple, it's just normality to me. Therefore it's only when the behaviour significantly escalates that I notice it. Others women, those who didn't have a PD parent, would probably have left the relationship earlier than I did. I wait until behaviour is far more extreme, by which time I'm trauma bonded and more involved. It's not that I've been miserable up until that point, it's just seemed like normal life.

As for ending things due to certain behaviour, as I said, I've been gaslighted by an abusive partner. He'd nudge me out of the way, and say "it wasn't a push, I was just moving you out of the way". He'd punch me in the thigh, and say it was just friendly, horsing around. Both those things are violent - do I end a marriage because of them? Do I wait to see if there's more, clear-cut violence? Because by that time my boundaries have actually lowered a bit: "the last time he pushed me it wasn't that bad, I wasn't hurt, so why would I end the marriage and break up the family? He laughed about it so he couldn't have meant it?". Over time the pushes get harder but he's still brushing it off as a joke and my boundaries have lowered over the years to adapt and normalise his behaviour.

It's rare that someone IMMEDIATELY breaches your boundaries. I have a non-violence boundary too, so do most people, yet I found myself in a marriage that was abusive. I have letters from solicitors and psychologists testifying it was abusive, and yet still I doubt it. He pushed me, punched me and sexually assaulted me, and yet I still say "oh but he wasn't physically violent". Why? Because my boundaries were breached very very subtly over a long period of time so that I didn't notice it happening and I adjusted to it as we went along.

This is a common phenomenon. Yes, establish boundaries and stick to them, but saying someone brought it all on themselves by not having boundaries is oversimplifying and can look worryingly like victim-blaming... .

WOW... .finally an explanation for my not knowing it was abuse... .I had been brought up with an emotionally unstable Mother. She would not want to admit it and she has mellowed with age, but after a few days, and as stress levels go up, it starts to seep out. No wonder I didn't notice. Both my long term relationships were abusive.

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« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2014, 07:22:18 PM »

Excerpt
And recovering from being in a high conflict/emotionally instable relationship is very different from avoiding one.

Hallelujah!
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AG
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« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2014, 10:31:59 PM »

Visitor your actually giving some good advice for dating someone normal. I had plenty of boundaries but I think the strongest one is to leave someone disordered immediately! Even with strong boundaries and believe me mine were pretty damn strong. You rage I hang up. You demand to meet my family when Im not ready I say no. You demand more of my time and to see me everyday I again say no we are not on that level yet. We discuss moving in together and you are still raging then now I renew my lease one more year and moving in is off. The list goes on and on constant putting your foot down. The best boundary with someone who is disordered is to leave them immediately. Your examples of boundary setting are damn good but those are good for dating normal people. AJ Mahajari said it herslf that she at this point in time would not date someone with BPD. Meanwhile she recovered from BPD and has dated someone with BPD while recovered. Talk about knowing your stuff she definitely did know. You can go on the staying board and see many of examples. If you set boundaries with someone with BPD from my experience they just keep continuously working to break them down. It's almost like your boundaries are a door to them and they are the cops with a battering ram trying to break the door down. Over time your boundaries will weaken because you essentially will weaken. You will feel extreme exhaustion and little by little lose ground slowly but surely. The boundaries I came into this relationship I learned from when I was engaged and it turned sour(normal girl with regular daddy issues FYI). The best boundary is to just leave them if they are disordered.

I cannot speak for everyone but it seems common that the type of people they hurt like myself have had past trauma or have suffered depression themselves in the past. I battled depression for years and won finally. I became whole. After my bad engagement episode I healed up and was strong and whole for sure. The fact though that I had battled depression years before left me empathetic to my BPD ex's situation. She told me originally she had major depression so I thought WOW this person needs love and care. I sympathized from suffering in the past myself. Now all my years of core work is ripped down way faster then I could obtain it. THe reason I state that is that you need to understand that the type of people they are targeting either have had issues in the past or currently do with core damage. Though I do agree with what you are saying with your boundary explanation it is not safe to assume that all of us didn't have any. We are empathetic type of personality on here for the most part and have chosen to put that empathy into the wrong place. We have made mistakes it's just that simple and are in severe trauma. You metaphorically asking someone who has broken both legs to just walk it off or get up and run. Eventually we will get up and run but it is going to take time.


Also I'm curious brother I really am. From everything you have stated so far and judging from the little amount of posts you have it seems like you are not in pain from the breakup and escaped pretty much unscathed. My question is what do you hope to gain on here for yourself. If you left during the idealization stage then you didn't experience the same as others on here and there probably isn't much to heal on your end. What do you need to work on for yourself that you are going to get from here?
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« Reply #52 on: August 27, 2014, 01:08:00 AM »

Visitor: I read this thread in it's entirety--you really made us think and react. In my case you're absolutely correct. I ordered the book, "The Power of No," which really speaks to me. We all are at different points in our recovery--my feelings vacillate as if I'm recovering from an addiction. If I'm too tired or too lonely or too hungry or not feeling good--all trigger feelings of missing exbfBPD. So, in my case, I know I must go through a recovery program not unlike AA. Because this is the third such relationship in my adult life (not counting FOO) I VERY MUCH WANT TO PREVENT A RELAPSE OR RECURRENCE! Your words really resonated with me. Twelve steps are simple to understand but hard to do. I seek an attitude and behavior change, and your words gave me a good template. I was at a very low self esteem phase when I met exbfBPD, and I believe they sense and perceive that vulnerability and exploit it IF WE ALLOW IT. I definitely feared loneliness more than the onslaught of his abuse. Because of a year of very high stress/cortisol levels, I have been diagnosed with a serious disorder. It's been a serious wake up call that I will not survive another round, so I am seeking any and all advice to prevent and more r/s with pwBPD or NPD or ASPD! Thanks.
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WWW
« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2014, 01:50:39 AM »

My ex was aware that these are all red flags and she restrained herself untill much later in te relationship.  To not scare me off.
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2014, 03:42:37 AM »

I really enjoyed reading this thread. The intense discussion has highlighted two main points for me:  the utter complexity of the dynamic of being in an intimate, close relationship with a pwBPD.  And, secondly,   that it all begins and ends with us exploring our own issues, as opposed to what we project onto our BPDpartners.  

Thanks for the excellent debate/discussion here.
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Serenitytoo

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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2014, 12:47:27 PM »

Hi, can I just ask what FOO means? 
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LettingGo14
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2014, 12:49:07 PM »

Hi, can I just ask what FOO means?  

Family of Origin.

For reference, if needed:

What do all these abbreviations mean?

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« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2014, 03:58:00 PM »

Thank you very much. I couldnt work it out! I have taken a look at the link too.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Visitor
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« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2014, 03:50:42 AM »

I really enjoyed reading this thread. The intense discussion has highlighted two main points for me:  the utter complexity of the dynamic of being in an intimate, close relationship with a pwBPD.  And, secondly,   that it all begins and ends with us exploring our own issues, as opposed to what we project onto our BPDpartners.  

Thanks for the excellent debate/discussion here.

Ihope2 thanks for the reply.

Very true about exploring our own issues. This is where I am at the moment.

When a fisherman throws his line into the water with a hook and worm on the line a group of fish will see it. Most of those fish say "that doesn't look right I'm going to stay away from that"... .but a few of the fish will say "Now that is a nice worm!... yes something isn't quite right about it but I don't have any other worms around at the moment so I'll go for it" ... .BAM! fish caught!

I'm not angry at the fisherman... he was just doing what he does. I'm not angry at myself as I was just an unknowing fish.

What I am fascinated with is WHY was I one of the few fish that took the bait when all the others around were staying well clear.
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Visitor
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« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2014, 04:14:46 AM »

Visitor your actually giving some good advice for dating someone normal. I had plenty of boundaries but I think the strongest one is to leave someone disordered immediately! Even with strong boundaries and believe me mine were pretty damn strong. You rage I hang up. You demand to meet my family when Im not ready I say no. You demand more of my time and to see me everyday I again say no we are not on that level yet. We discuss moving in together and you are still raging then now I renew my lease one more year and moving in is off. The list goes on and on constant putting your foot down. The best boundary with someone who is disordered is to leave them immediately. Your examples of boundary setting are damn good but those are good for dating normal people. AJ Mahajari said it herslf that she at this point in time would not date someone with BPD. Meanwhile she recovered from BPD and has dated someone with BPD while recovered. Talk about knowing your stuff she definitely did know. You can go on the staying board and see many of examples. If you set boundaries with someone with BPD from my experience they just keep continuously working to break them down. It's almost like your boundaries are a door to them and they are the cops with a battering ram trying to break the door down. Over time your boundaries will weaken because you essentially will weaken. You will feel extreme exhaustion and little by little lose ground slowly but surely. The boundaries I came into this relationship I learned from when I was engaged and it turned sour(normal girl with regular daddy issues FYI). The best boundary is to just leave them if they are disordered.

I cannot speak for everyone but it seems common that the type of people they hurt like myself have had past trauma or have suffered depression themselves in the past. I battled depression for years and won finally. I became whole. After my bad engagement episode I healed up and was strong and whole for sure. The fact though that I had battled depression years before left me empathetic to my BPD ex's situation. She told me originally she had major depression so I thought WOW this person needs love and care. I sympathized from suffering in the past myself. Now all my years of core work is ripped down way faster then I could obtain it. THe reason I state that is that you need to understand that the type of people they are targeting either have had issues in the past or currently do with core damage. Though I do agree with what you are saying with your boundary explanation it is not safe to assume that all of us didn't have any. We are empathetic type of personality on here for the most part and have chosen to put that empathy into the wrong place. We have made mistakes it's just that simple and are in severe trauma. You metaphorically asking someone who has broken both legs to just walk it off or get up and run. Eventually we will get up and run but it is going to take time.


Also I'm curious brother I really am. From everything you have stated so far and judging from the little amount of posts you have it seems like you are not in pain from the breakup and escaped pretty much unscathed. My question is what do you hope to gain on here for yourself. If you left during the idealization stage then you didn't experience the same as others on here and there probably isn't much to heal on your end. What do you need to work on for yourself that you are going to get from here?

Hello AG and thank you for taking the time to reply.

To answer your question I really was into my BPD ex but she pushed me away through her constant boundary crashing, extreme jealousy, raging etc. The idolization stage went on for much longer that most it seems. When I finally left her I was left feeling like I was a bad person. I felt like I used her and never committed as I should have. She was good at making everything my fault and completely disregarding her behaviour which played tricks on my softer side.

My journey here is one of self discovery and searching for reasons that I found myself in the relationship that I did. What attracted me to her in the first place?

My edges have softened since starting the post in that pwBPD don't smash through our boundaries, they are Trojan horses. They trick us into letting them inside and before we know it we are under attack. They are tearing us apart from the inside.

But we cant be fooled twice! Sure we took some collateral damage but they didn't defeat us. They only made us stronger and now we are wise to the Trojan horse.

We will still let people in to our fortress but now we recognize the enemy, now the people inside will only be with us and not against us.

Keep your boundaries my friends... and beware of the Trojan Horse that is BPD!
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