Breaking away from my own codependency

[jammo1989]

The key to my healing is not from getting or begging for closure from my ex, the key here was to educate myself about the disorder, while at the same time using it solely for my own closure.  You should not be researching these personality disorders if your goal is to go back to them, and the reason I say that is because, the people who research this subject with these intentions go back to the stove only to get burnt again.  You will not and can not change who people are, I don't care if your a millionaire, a top psychologist you WONT change them, the more you try the nastier and resentful they will get.

I used this site for closure, asked some of the older members the question that poped into my mind, and by doing so I was able to put all the pieces of the puzzle together, and when I did it was like oh my god! i know who he/she really is.  I can tell you now from experience my ex discarded me telling me to never contact her again while flirting with me in person, she giggled and smirked at me, I was then blocked from social media and phone, and the thing is i didn't harass or chase her, so she had no reason to do this.  I asked the same question on this site over and over, and in the end I used what others had said and began my own research, I started googling thing's like:

The emotional cut off

The silent treatment BPD/NPD

Child of the Narcissistic parent

The more i learnt the more i understood.  After months of research I had a moment of oh my god! I have the key to her happiness, I know what she doesnt. Cluster Bs dont know what they are suffering with but they do know that something isnt right and they will be in denial hence the fake personality and mask they wear.

Was I co dependent?  If you love them because you care, and want to make their life happy, then your the wrong person to go near Cluster Bs, they use our kindness and good will to get what they cant have in life, I was and always have been Co- dependent, but there comes a point when, if you feel like your in a battle you MUST be strong emotionally as a person.

My ex dumped me over the phone, gave me the come here go away behavior, 2 weeks later she text me saying "I want to meet up to give our stuff back"  I then text her best mate that night saying im dropping (insert exes name)off at yours.  15 minutes later i had a barrage of calls 12 in total, I finally picked up and she said you will see me and you will see how much youve hurt me, ill come to your house if i have to! so i finally gave in and said ok.  This is where i broke away from my good will nature, I called friends and asked them how should I act on the day, and from then on i put myself into ALPHA Male mode.

The day finally came she saw me all nervous, giggled and the first thing she said was some guy was hitting on me the other night (provoking looking to see if Narc supply was still available)

i didnt react, she then tried harder and said if i had sex with another guy would you be mad with me?  I said no id just have sex with another girl, next thing i know shes all over me kissing me telling me she loves me so much and that she wanted sex with me (see her mind games here and how they worked?)  Later on that day i was given a hickey and told how handsome I looked .  Later that day i said, ok gotta go now (took control) and she burst out crying, the game was, if i gave a reaction to her actions i would have come across as caring and still a worthy source of Narc supply.

Woman whether healthy or Cluster Bs want a man that can handle any situation they throw at you, so DONT YOU DARE text them saying i miss you, i love you, can we meet up?  because all your doing here is showing her that she has the power here and not you, and especially for Narcs this power gives them a feeling of superiority.  You must not and can not talk to them like you want them back or want to be friends, it doesnt work like that they are emotional vampires, and you are NOT their emotional dildo for when they want you.

My final discard happened when i had to meet her for the last time, she was really kind and loving, asked about my family, told me her 3 year old daughter misses me, also told me that she stalked my FB (she blocked me) and went onto say her and the kids were looking at old pictures of us (She had a BF during this period)  then from out of no where giggled at me, then said dont you ever contact me again, do you understand! with that cruel Narc smirk... .So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

My ex always used to say to me your going to cry over me one day, your going to chase me because all my other exes do, and you know what? I am the 1st guy she has ever blocked completely, and do you know why that is? Its because im an ALPHA male, i dont chase and i sure as hell dont bow to someone who was and still is below me in every aspect of life!    

[Hawk Ridge]

Wow! Thank you!

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

It has been four months NC for me as well. Plenty of tears just not in front of her.  Not sure if I am Alpha or not but I won't be chasing her that is certain.  I lost respect for her.  Now a healthy woman - you can cry in front of her and you can be yourself.  A healthy woman can handle real emotion without turning it into some sort of power game.

[Blimblam]

"You're the butcher or you're the cattle"?

[EaglesJuju]

Although I am not an Alpha male   , I found that working on my codependency was a result of focusing on my own behavior in the relationship.  I stopped analyzing the behavior of my pwBPD and found what I contributed to our dysfunctionality. I learned that I cannot change his behavior, I can only change my own. 

[AwakenedOne]

... .with that cruel Narc smirk... .

The smile of a Narc is something so weird and creepy it's hard to ever remove that image from ones mind.

Good for you man. Glad your doing ok. I feel that I learn a lot from reading your posts. I like what you say here about having strength. My ex dumped me but still at the end it was in all actuality because I no longer was putting up with her BS.

[CloseToFreedom]

... .with that cruel Narc smirk... .

The smile of a Narc is something so weird and creepy it's hard to ever remove that image from ones mind.

Good for you man. Glad your doing ok. I feel that I learn a lot from reading your posts. I like what you say here about having strength. My ex dumped me but still at the end it was in all actuality because I no longer was putting up with her BS.

Man, that smirk... .my ex used to really smile with her teeth exposed when she knew she said something that hurt me during arguments. She loved it when she was able to kick me down.

[jammo1989]

Im glad that you find my posts helpful and informative, means a lot! The Narc smirk, can also be described as the smirk provoker.  We must remember that Narcs are all about control, if they cant control in their eyes their worthless.  This is the reason why they put us down and make cruel remarks its merely to provoke a reaction.  When the game isnt being played anymore and you dont react they sense Narcisstic injury, and with this in mind they step it up a gear to try even harder for you to play this game.  For example my ex:

Some guy was hitting on me the othet night

(I smiled back and had flirty banter)

If i had sex with another guy would you be annoyed?

(No negative reaction from me)

Next thing i know she was all over me like a rash!

The smirk is to provoke you, it is used when combined with cruel remarks to strenghen the response of your reaction, this is why we were left so confused because, when a normal  woman is crying her eyes out while saying *dont ever contact me again, cant you see how much youve hurt me?* our closuse would simply be, shes emotinally distraught over the break up she needs a cooling off period.  Where as in the case of the Narc all emotions are hidden behind a fake image.

So why did your ex say never contact me again with a big grin across her face?

She did this because her game wasnt working on you anymore, the control was gone in her eyes which in her eyes now makes you useless Narc Supply.  The smirk on the final discard is the the last tool they have at provoking you to get drawn back in. After this she knows there are no more tools in her arsenal to keep you as Narc or at least back up supply.  It is also important that Narcs hate losing Narc supply, so even if she was with your replacment during this perod, it just goes to show how much work they put into keeping old supply AKA playing these games even during their new relationships.

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

[Skip]

So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

How do "we initiate NC and show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" It seems contradictory.

And "not react even after the final discard= Narc Slayer".  What are we slaying?  When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction.  This also seems contradictory.

Respectfully, this seems like tilting at windmills.

There is humiliation in being devalued- it's painful. But the hard truth may be that we stayed when we were being devalued - we accepted it and accepted it, one small step at a time.  We became increasingly clingy.

The lesson I learned in all of this is to read these signs in ourselves earlier and stop.

The hard question is, why we didn't recognize that we are becoming clingy (codependent) and deal with it? Or maybe how do we recognize that we are becoming clingy and deal with it?

[jammo1989]

So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

How do "we initiate NC and show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" It seems contradictory.

And "not react even after the final discard= Narc Slayer".  What are we slaying?  When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction.  This also seems contradictory.

This seems like tilting at windmills.

There is humiliation in being devalued- it's painful. But the hard truth may be that we stayed when we were being devalued - we accepted it and accepted it, one small step at a time.  We became increasingly clingy.

The lesson I learned in all of this is to read these signs in ourselves earlier and stop.

The hard question is, why were recognize that we are becoming clingy (codependent) and deal with it?

This post isn't and wasn't about initiating NC, Im basically saying when we are discarded by a Narc it is because we refuse to play their games anymore.  Everything is said and done to provoke a reaction whether positive or negative as a means of control.  I am solely using my experience as a way point to get out of this vicious cycle.  For example, when i stated " show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" I was basically saying, if they text you with some sly remark only to expect a reaction from you,  they are just using another tactic while playing the same game. (read up on game theory) so to change the script they have set out for us we need to react in such a way that they cant respond.  For example:

Her: I am done with you, don't ever contact me again!

Her expected outcome: If he chases me, shows emotion, pleads with me, he may be worth keeping around as a back up supply.  If you do just this... .She WINS!

your reply: Oh don't be like that, you know your going to miss this handsome face (flirty banter)

It shows that she has lost control over you and you win the game, a narc wants to see you beg and plead, because by doing this you are giving them the ego they need to justify their own self worth.

So no, its not contradictory because when faced with a true Narc you have to show that your in control whether you still love them or not, by simply not responding in the way they want you to you are causing them Narcissistic injury, your basically saying "I am not your door mat you should want me not need me when it suits you"  

Furthermore you also quoted that "When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction" In the mind of the Narc we were discarded because we refused to play their games anymore, they were attracted to our co dependency traits and what we could offer them.  This is why you see all these men who wait in line for the same woman they all want to show what they have to offer her.  So I personally believe that with a Narc it has nothing to do with a loss of attraction, it is merely down to refusing to play the game they expect you to.  A true Narc hates losing good Narc supply, so when we are discarded another source of supply must be in place first before they can move on.  So with this in mind, if you truly want to keep the Narc in your life (bad idea) all you would have to do is go into submissive mode, tell them they are amazing, tell them you miss them, tell them that you will always be therefor them.  Now you as supply actually has some worth in her eyes, so in most cases the contact would re initiate and you may be put on the back burner if things with your replacement doesn't work out.  So its not based on an attraction its based on a need to what they want at that moment in time.

I know if i emailed my ex narc now after 4 months i would get a response, and by doing so all id have to do is go into submissive mode, she then senses my weakness to her and she will use that to her advantage later down the line.

Narc slayer, so what are you actually slaying?

Im slaying the one thing that these Narcissists need, Narcissistic Supply, she knows that i was a great supply at one point, thats why she tried so damn hard to keep me in the picture even during my replacement.  I know for a fact that i was the only BF to ever tell her "im done"  this to her implied she had no control over my emotional responses anymore which  then led to the blocking AKA the emotional cut off.  Slaying a Narc is basically justifying the fact that, they have now lost a great source of supply and that they will now have to put the extra work in to find another back up source of supply.      

[Skip]

My Ex BPD dumped me over the phone, she then pushed and pulled me for 2 weeks... //... for about 2 weeks i was getting the the i love you, hate you treatment.  She demanded I met her to get my stuff back, so i could see the pain I had apparently caused.  She was saying things like you look hot, if i wasnt on my peroid id so ___ you right now. (sorry guys)  She gave me a hickey, told me how much she loved me and wouldn't stop kissing me.  I then told her I had things to do back at home and would text her.  She then burst into tears and was like leave me alone i need my space.  She then kissed me and text me an hour later saying thank you for an amazing day Jammo I love you.  :)uring this period she would push/pull ignore my texts, then ring me 2/3 days later saying she missed me.  A week went by and these mind games destroyed me, she kept liking this guys pictures on FB,I had finally had enough of her mind games, so i rang her up and said im done ok, i cant take this any more, but i want us to be mature and be friends... //... 2 days later shes in a relationship with her replacement.  She then blocked me from everything

So was this the narc slaying?

It reads like a pw/BPD struggled/second guessed breaking up with you.  :)efinitely a very messy and dramatic creation on her part with conflicting messages. This was a very weak person.

The breakup, two weeks of emotional spaghetti, and the other guy finally drove you to a breaking point - as it should have - and exiting was smart. Some of us continued on in these quagmires, no doubt.

What was really going on here in her mind is hard to tell.

~ Was she trying to be heard and using all the drama to get you to listen?

~ Was she trying to control you and using all the drama to that end?

~ Was she done and insecure about making the split (wanting you as a backup)?

~ Was she feeling guilty for what she was doing and forcing you?

~ Was this about needing validation - having two men vying for her?

~ or... .

What are your thoughts?

[jammo1989]

My Ex BPD dumped me over the phone, she then pushed and pulled me for 2 weeks... //... I had finally had enough of her mind games, so i rang her up and said im done ok, i cant take this any more, but i want us to be mature and be friends... //... 2 days later shes in a relationship with her replacement.  She then blocked me from everything

So was this the narc slaying?

I had spent 2 days with her in person, everything was perfect, incredible sex, cuddled her till she fell asleep, and was told how much she loved me, no negative withdrawal towards me based on body language what so ever, in fact it was the most romantic weekend i had, had with her in months.  I went home the next day, and I had noticed on her FB she was liking a lot of pictures from this guy ( now my replacement)  I called her up and said dont play games with me, I know you like this guy so just admit it, she then said your so insecure its over and hung up.  The push/ pull behavior then started, she begged to see me so that we could return each others belongings.  At first i said no ill drop it off at your friends and she cried and cried saying you dont understand how much you've hut me, you WILL see me because i want you to see what youve done to me.  It was at this point, although still in the fog where i started to fight back emotionally.  I met up with her 2 weeks later after being begged by her, and what ive already explained happened, the testing the games to prove my worth to her.  I showed no reaction, it was then where i started slaying the Narc because i refused to played the games she set up for me.  I left her crying her eyes out saying she needed to be alone, and that she couldn't handle it anymore.  So the games weren't being played and as a result she lost.

She later text me 1st saying thank you for an amazing day, i love you James, i said yeah it was good, then the push/ pull games started again, i got home saw she said good night to this guy again, she later text me saying i cant wait to meet up with you again, maybe we can get through this, because i love you so much.  I left this i text her but she didn't text back go on for another week, then finally, i called her up and said im not playing your mind games anymore im done, i want to be mature about it and be friends though.  She then hung up on me and refused to talk on the phone (wanting me to chase) i said if your not going to answer the phone then lets leave it there. She then picked up and said ok thats fine James, the next day i was blocked on FB and my number was blocked (pulled a fast one on me) the next day i go on this guys FB and he was at hers and now in a relationship with her.  I did not react by emailing her i laughed and said i knew it!

She later realized she had some more stuff at mine, so after 2 weeks of NC i sent her a polite email saying "I have politely asked for you to send my stuff back, I would be extremly grateful if you could.  The lies started instantly, sorry James ive been so busy at work recently.  She wasn't working because she has a 3 year old daughter, she was pro longing it with false information.  We literally sent about 8 emails back and forth, each time saying sorry James ive been so busy,  so in the end she finally emailed saying I will meet you on the weekend k? take care Jam.

The final day came, she was with a mutual guy mate of ours, she was so lovely in her words saying hope your family are ok, my daughter misses you so much, she wont stop asking for you, told me she still went on my FB even though it was blocked and that her and the kids were looking through old pictures of us to.  We were laughing and giggling, flirting while her new bf was at home.  I never once reacted to her words, she then stepped up the game by becoming cruel towards me, saying things like, life's looking a bit crap for you now, im working and your not, then came the Narc smirk along with you stopped me getting on with my life  because you were up every weekend.  She wasn't working, had no education, no car nothing, so i laughed and said something like "what a babe". Then finally the narc smile came out one last time along with now you have your stuff back you have no reason to ever contact me again, she grinned, smirked It  was the same face i experienced when we started getting close at the beginning of the relationship (flirty).  I then laughed and kept up the banter, then she said im bored of talking to you now go away!

So why am i telling my story in greater detail?

Because, I was completely in line and in control with my emotions ever since i told her on the phone that im done.  I put a stop to it, not her because, she wanted to meet up with me again, but i could see the new guy coming before it even happened.  The slaying of the Narc is becoming indifferent, not playing the games, and cutting off a good source of their supply.  When i started acting like an alpha male and not reacting she even told me, I feel like a piece of ___ next to you. I was causing Narcissistic injury and in return my punishment was the emotional cut off.  So yes i did slay the Narc because in the end she began to chase me, but I was the one to finally put a stop to all the crazy making.  

I will never truly understand her motives, but I think its safe to say with the information I now know it would seem apparent to me that she was most definitely NPD/BPD.  Towards the very end she told me she had thoughts of getting hit by a car and that she had started to go to therapy, and her therapist told her you shouldn't be in a relationship right now, but she got with this new guy 3 weeks later, so was this all a fabricated lie about therapy, or was she really feeling that emotionally destroyed that she had to do something to ease the pain, I see the new guy as a convenience not a bf because if he was taken it would have been someone else.  All i know is that, this forum has helped me so much, and although i dont claim to be an expert, I share my experiences to help those in need, Thanks for your response SKIP!              

[Elpis]

Jammo,

can I respectfully say to you that it sounds like you're preaching to play the game back with the pwBPD/NPD. Shouldn't the goal be to get out of the game business and get into the Truth and Reality business?

Like EaglesJuju said,

I found that working on my codependency was a result of focusing on my own behavior in the relationship.

We need to work on ourselves, not play games with the ex partner. We need to become the best "us" we can be, and we'll never get there by joining in their disordered games.

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

[jammo1989]

Jammo,

can I respectfully say to you that it sounds like you're preaching to play the game back with the pwBPD/NPD. Shouldn't the goal be to get out of the game business and get into the Truth and Reality business?

Like EaglesJuju said,

I found that working on my codependency was a result of focusing on my own behavior in the relationship.

We need to work on ourselves, not play games with the ex partner. We need to become the best "us" we can be, and we'll never get there by joining in their disordered games.

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

I completely agree with what your saying here, I think what Im feeling and experiencing is different to others, this is solely because Im finally out of the fog where as others are still finding their way out of it.  I agree, playing games is dangerous and extremely stupid, because i felt as if i was dealing with an NPD I couldn't let her see or know that i was emotionally hurt by her actions, so with that in mind i felt as if i had to act indifferent in order to take her ego down a few notches (not answering to her) The more a true Narcs sees you in pain the more they will try to hurt you, so when i say about playing the game it is almost me saying "If the Narc senses you are not hurt by his/ her actions then they will move on to the next.  So yeah, sorry for my misinterpretation about playing the game.     

[Elpis]

AH--gotcha!

I've had to become so much more benign in my responses to my Alpha Male uBPDh--I just have to answer in a very neutral tone if I answer at all. BOY that has been hard! I fall so easily into The Familiar at times, since our marriage was so long and we share kids and grandkids and memories. But then ten minutes later he's trying to cut me off at the knees via text. So I have to even avoid The Familiar with him.

I guess my concern in your post was that if you are showing how you have dealt with your ex by showing she couldn't hurt you and you did that with flirtation and such, it's sending a bad message for others on the path to healing. I understand now why you did the things you did to put her off, disengaging tends to be more of a neutral response to our exes than when we are actually "playing along" in a way. I found that gave my h the really wrong message--he would interpret it as he was winning me back over. OH NO NO, that's not gonna happen!

[HappyNihilist]

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

My dBPDexbf is big into the Alpha Male stuff, too, and I agree.

Rather than looking at relationships as a power struggle, it helps to reframe and see what we can do to feel more confident about what we realistically can control (ourselves). Setting and maintaining firm boundaries is a big part of this. When we are protecting ourselves with impermeable boundaries, we feel much more secure.

What boundaries do you have in place, or think might help you?

[jammo1989]

AH--gotcha!

I've had to become so much more benign in my responses to my Alpha Male uBPDh--I just have to answer in a very neutral tone if I answer at all. BOY that has been hard! I fall so easily into The Familiar at times, since our marriage was so long and we share kids and grandkids and memories. But then ten minutes later he's trying to cut me off at the knees via text. So I have to even avoid The Familiar with him.

I guess my concern in your post was that if you are showing how you have dealt with your ex by showing she couldn't hurt you and you did that with flirtation and such, it's sending a bad message for others on the path to healing. I understand now why you did the things you did to put her off, disengaging tends to be more of a neutral response to our exes than when we are actually "playing along" in a way. I found that gave my h the really wrong message--he would interpret it as he was winning me back over. OH NO NO, that's not gonna happen!

AH--gotcha!

I've had to become so much more benign in my responses to my Alpha Male uBPDh--I just have to answer in a very neutral tone if I answer at all. BOY that has been hard! I fall so easily into The Familiar at times, since our marriage was so long and we share kids and grandkids and memories. But then ten minutes later he's trying to cut me off at the knees via text. So I have to even avoid The Familiar with him.

I guess my concern in your post was that if you are showing how you have dealt with your ex by showing she couldn't hurt you and you did that with flirtation and such, it's sending a bad message for others on the path to healing. I understand now why you did the things you did to put her off, disengaging tends to be more of a neutral response to our exes than when we are actually "playing along" in a way. I found that gave my h the really wrong message--he would interpret it as he was winning me back over. OH NO NO, that's not gonna happen!

The thing is, Narcs especially are all about winning, they get their pleasure through the use of manipulation and with this comes provoking others in order to claim a more often than not negative response to a situation.  We should never play games with these cold, calculated individuals, but what we must do is, not let them see us a a new toy to play with, and discard after it has been broken.  What I am trying to preach though is this, Narcs attach to co dependents because they see the good will in us knowing full well there will be a gain from this in some way, shape or form.  And i strongly feel the need to protect others against these kinds of interactions.  So by implementing flirty behavior I do not mean having a conversation of a sexual nature or making plans like meeting up, it is to solely trick the NPD that we are now immune to the stupid games they play.  For example:

Them:  If you dont do as i ask, you will feel the pain from my silence

US when still in the FOG: Why are you being so horrible towards me? you know i love you! (Extremely weak boundaries)

US when we are out of the FOG: Yeah that would be great, i need a break from your annoying voice  (Strong boundaries)

This is what I was trying to get at, if we show them that they don't have this type of control over us anymore, we weaken them and just like a predator in the wild, when an animal puts up to much of a fight, eventually the attacker will let go (leave us alone)        

[jammo1989]

In all honesty, that Alpha Male stuff is what my uBPDh exhibits, the "I must be the superior." And i'm so thankful every day for being away from it.

My dBPDexbf is big into the Alpha Male stuff, too, and I agree.

Rather than looking at relationships as a power struggle, it helps to reframe and see what we can do to feel more confident about what we realistically can control (ourselves). Setting and maintaining firm boundaries is a big part of this. When we are protecting ourselves with impermeable boundaries, we feel much more secure.

What boundaries do you have in place, or think might help you?

My boundaries are that, even though I haven't and will probably never speak to her again,  I am and always above the ex that I dated, In all honesty I feel almost a Narc myself towards her, and no im not a Narc because i have more empathy than a lot of people.  What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned.  So, if she does to one day return not only will I look down on her, but i will also clarify the fact that shes not worthy of a guy of my standards.  Call me a horrible person for thinking this, but at the end of the day when you have been used and discarded by someone, you don't seek revenge, but what you do, do is, rectify the fact that the person you were with will never compare to you, and with that in mind its all about that alpha male mind set.

I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?   

[Elpis]

it is to solely trick the NPD      

Doesn't that put us "in the game" with them?

Personally I don't want to be in an adversarial relationship anymore, and I don't want to be an adversarial person or a game playing person--all that takes too much of my precious energy! 

What I seek is The Truth of the Matter, because that leads to healing. The Truth for me says I need to stop reacting in the old ways that kept me in the game, whichever side I might be playing. Like all the years I lived a lie simply to get along and keep my marriage together while knowing that I was dying inside and losing myself by being In The Game. Now the Truth of my situation says I need to back away and take care of myself.

I don't think it feels like a game to you, that's my sense. Yet to me when we do something that manipulates the outcome in some way, we are still in the game. The desire for healing leads me to less response to my uBPDh's games (which are always on) because my focus is turning toward my own well-being.

I do see what you're getting at by your responses and maneuvers, honestly I do. I can see that you're trying to prove a point to your ex by your actions. When we quit trying to prove anything to our exes and start simply taking care of ourselves is when we will heal. And we're all on that path, and i'm just sharing what I've learned from my therapist and my relationship in this detaching process. 

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

I would love to see you do some more thinking about the Alpha Male thing--if you feel you are Better Than Others you won't be capable of a reciprocal relationship. And that's what a healthy relationship will be--reciprocal, not One-Upping your partner. I'm old, I know stuff,

[EaglesJuju]

My boundaries are that, even though I haven't and will probably never speak to her again,  I am and always above the ex that I dated, In all honesty I feel almost a Narc myself towards her, and no im not a Narc because i have more empathy than a lot of people.  What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned.  So, if she does to one day return not only will I look down on her, but i will also clarify the fact that shes not worthy of a guy of my standards.  Call me a horrible person for thinking this, but at the end of the day when you have been used and discarded by someone, you don't seek revenge, but what you do, do is, rectify the fact that the person you were with will never compare to you, and with that in mind its all about that alpha male mind set.



I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?   

I am confused how having an "Alpha" mindset is synonymous to breaking co-dependency? 

How does this statement So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?    help with people recognizing their own contributions to their relationship and breaking codependency?

[jammo1989]

it is to solely trick the NPD      

Doesn't that put us "in the game" with them?

Personally I don't want to be in an adversarial relationship anymore, and I don't want to be an adversarial person or a game playing person--all that takes too much of my precious energy! 

What I seek is The Truth of the Matter, because that leads to healing. The Truth for me says I need to stop reacting in the old ways that kept me in the game, whichever side I might be playing. Like all the years I lived a lie simply to get along and keep my marriage together while knowing that I was dying inside and losing myself by being In The Game. Now the Truth of my situation says I need to back away and take care of myself.

I don't think it feels like a game to you, that's my sense. Yet to me when we do something that manipulates the outcome in some way, we are still in the game. The desire for healing leads me to less response to my uBPDh's games (which are always on) because my focus is turning toward my own well-being.

I do see what you're getting at by your responses and maneuvers, honestly I do. I can see that you're trying to prove a point to your ex by your actions. When we quit trying to prove anything to our exes and start simply taking care of ourselves is when we will heal. And we're all on that path, and i'm just sharing what I've learned from my therapist and my relationship in this detaching process. 

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

I would love to see you do some more thinking about the Alpha Male thing--if you feel you are Better Than Others you won't be capable of a reciprocal relationship. And that's what a healthy relationship will be--reciprocal, not One-Upping your partner. I'm old, I know stuff,

Im not a full time alpha male (probably doesnt even make sense ) I have suffered from depression and anxiety in the past, and I said to myself I will not let this person trigger them unhealthy responses from me, so by me looking down on her, and just her it makes me feel superior to her, and no im not playing a stupid game because im now 4 months NC, we all need to look at the positives in US and use these to our advantage.  We have 2 outcomes of coming out of a relationship with a cluster B:

Become severely depressed, while there looking down on our emotional pain, or look back and think to myself wow i was a right catch for her, I took her from a life of being poor to a life of doing what she wants when she wants, must have spent over £10,000 on her over my 2 month relationship, what an idiot I was, am i going to dwell on it, or am i going to say to myself ha ha have fun in your poor pathetic life.

The problem I had and others will do as well is the fact that, we put so much emotion into our relationships and we are left destroyed, while we are traumatized they are out living their lives like nothing ever happened, we can not and must not let these people tamper with out negative emotions.  I am a seriously caring person my empathy for others is incredibly high, but when someone over steps their boundaries that is when I feel its perfectly acceptable to look down on them if that means to protect our own emotions.  For example, instead of texting my ex saying saying i love you (making myself look weak) id rather her contact me and i can simply reply with what makes you think you were ever worthy of my good will let alone life style?  

[jammo1989]

My boundaries are that, even though I haven't and will probably never speak to her again,  I am and always above the ex that I dated, In all honesty I feel almost a Narc myself towards her, and no im not a Narc because i have more empathy than a lot of people.  What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned.  So, if she does to one day return not only will I look down on her, but i will also clarify the fact that shes not worthy of a guy of my standards.  Call me a horrible person for thinking this, but at the end of the day when you have been used and discarded by someone, you don't seek revenge, but what you do, do is, rectify the fact that the person you were with will never compare to you, and with that in mind its all about that alpha male mind set.



I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?  

I am confused how having an "Alpha" mindset is synonymous to breaking co-dependency?  

How does this statement So with all that in mind, its about time we all praised ourselves for how much better we are than these people, why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?   help with people recognizing their own contributions to their relationship and breaking codependency?

Co dependency is simply putting others needs before your own, and we are dealing with individuals that lacks them very emotions, so with this in mind we give 100% and get nothing back, and with this comes frustration and an extreme feeling of low self worth because what ever we do is not good enough in the mind of a Cluster B.  And eventually the co dependent starts to blame themselves for not doing enough to cater for the other persons needs, and a lot of the time we are left depressed because, we put so much emotion into an individual or relationship that was completely one sided.  So like i stated before, do I become severely depressed with the feelings of not being good enough, or do I say to myself you will NOT trigger my depression and by using your own strengths and attributes you will find that these people can not and will not be the gate way to our emotional pain.  You have to remember im solely talking about my own personal experience with a Narc here, so by saying to myself im better than this person justifies the fact that she will not be the cause of my negative emotions.            

[123Phoebe]

Hey jammo,

What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned. 

What was the attraction in the first place?  This is looking down on her, yes?

I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

In my opinion, ^^this^^ is an "attitude".  If this is the attitude you projected to her, while you were with her, it might've been a big turn-off.  It doesn't show strength, jammo-- it feels to me like insecurity; that's the vibe I'm getting.

You've mentioned that your family is wealthy.  Have you found your own wealth away from your family?

why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?    

Society?  Your ex offers nothing in the eyes of society.  Ew, it feels weird even typing that.  I don't agree, jammo.  I agree with Elpis:

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

Is there something else going on other than this breakup?  Are your family relationships okay?

[Elpis]

An even healthier way to look at it is that what our ex did to us is of no interest anymore because we're moving forward in our lives.

I wonder if what you mean when you say "Alpha Male" is really more the simple fact that you are trying to take control back in your own life and not be shattered and affected by what your ex has done? I've long dealt with anxiety and depression myself, and I get healthier and less depressed as I work toward being my best self and not concerning myself with my uBPDh's shenanigans. (and yes, I used the word "shenanigans." )

Alpha Male does give the idea of someone who feels they're better than me simply because they have more/do more in their eyes. That's my uBPDh. He needs to see me as Lesser in order to feel better about himself. He needs to tell me that he's "paid for (my) life for a long time now" in reference to the fact that I've spent the past 38 years raising his daughter from a previous marriage, taking care of the rest of our children and the house and shopping/cleaning/cooking... .He must Be Superior to me. That's not healthy. We serve ourselves better when we become our most balanced self and can recognize the positive and negative in ourselves without beating ourselves up or puffing ourselves up.

Superiority does not lend itself well to a positive and healthy relationship, something I think we all want after what we've been through.

I do wonder with 123Phoebe whether there is more going on than the breakup, there's a lot of passion behind your stance about your ex.

[EaglesJuju]

Co dependency is simply putting others needs before your own, and we are dealing with individuals that lacks them very emotions, so with this in mind we give 100% and get nothing back, and with this comes frustration and an extreme feeling of low self worth because what ever we do is not good enough in the mind of a Cluster B.  And eventually the co dependent starts to blame themselves for not doing enough to cater for the other persons needs, and a lot of the time we are left depressed because, we put so much emotion into an individual or relationship that was completely one sided.  So like i stated before, do I become severely depressed with the feelings of not being good enough, or do I say to myself you will NOT trigger my depression and by using your own strengths and attributes you will find that these people can not and will not be the gate way to our emotional pain.  You have to remember im solely talking about my own personal experience with a Narc here, so by saying to myself im better than this person justifies the fact that she will not be the cause of my negative emotions.            

Why do codependents put themselves before others?  What are the underlying reasons?  Why do codependents get into relationships with disordered people? Why do codependents let disordered people walk all over them?  Why do codependents constantly give with getting very little back? I can easily shift all the blame to myBPD but, does that truly help me with my own problems?

I think these are the important questions to ask ourselves if we are codependent. 

[Skip]

... .must have spent over £10,000 on her over my 2 month relationship, what an idiot I was, am i going to dwell on it, or am i going to say to myself ha ha have fun in your poor pathetic life.

The problem I had and others will do as well is the fact that, we put so much emotion into our relationships and we are left destroyed... .

Your relationship was 60 days?

[jammo1989]

An even healthier way to look at it is that what our ex did to us is of no interest anymore because we're moving forward in our lives.

I wonder if what you mean when you say "Alpha Male" is really more the simple fact that you are trying to take control back in your own life and not be shattered and affected by what your ex has done? I've long dealt with anxiety and depression myself, and I get healthier and less depressed as I work toward being my best self and not concerning myself with my uBPDh's shenanigans. (and yes, I used the word "shenanigans." )

Alpha Male does give the idea of someone who feels they're better than me simply because they have more/do more in their eyes. That's my uBPDh. He needs to see me as Lesser in order to feel better about himself. He needs to tell me that he's "paid for (my) life for a long time now" in reference to the fact that I've spent the past 38 years raising his daughter from a previous marriage, taking care of the rest of our children and the house and shopping/cleaning/cooking... .He must Be Superior to me. That's not healthy. We serve ourselves better when we become our most balanced self and can recognize the positive and negative in ourselves without beating ourselves up or puffing ourselves up.

yeah the Alpha male mind set is solely what you described, to protect my self from depression, because If i made myself believe half the things she told me in her cruel out bursts then i would be suffering with the depression, for example, she once said to me i hate your mum for giving birth to you, and that was literally an out of no where action, she also told me

Superiority does not lend itself well to a positive and healthy relationship, something I think we all want after what we've been through.

I do wonder with 123Phoebe whether there is more going on than the breakup, there's a lot of passion behind your stance about your ex.

yeah the Alpha male mind set is solely what you described, to protect my self from depression, because If i made myself believe half the things she told me in her cruel out bursts then i would be suffering with the depression, for example, she once said to me i hate your mum for giving birth to you, and that was literally an out of no where action, she also told me that she had better looking boy mates while we were cuddling in bed.  I do have a lot of emotion in what i write its not anger or depression, its a strong feeling of wanting to help others on this site, i hate seeing people with posts about being so confused because like you I was there.  Maybe I can be insecure your right, she had 2 little kids a 6 year old boy and a 3 year old boy, and i kid you not i changed my whole life for her and the kids at one point i was working 7 days a week taking home around £2000 a month because I was determined to save up for a mortgage because even now I want the best for those 2 children, i know they arent mine, but the bond I had with the 3 year old was so strong.  I saved and saved, promised and made sure the kids were spoiled at times, I brought them an Ipad a 20 Ft trampoline, computer games, why? because I could see that they were struggling, so yeah I am extremely Co dependent, and what does my ex go and do, she manipulates her 6 year old to hate me,  my ex was crying once and it was because i told her i cant have a baby with her right now, and her son asked her why are you? and her response "James makes me cry he hurts mummy* 2 weeks pier to this he was jumping up and down with excitement telling his teacher that he couldnt wait to see me.  So yeah, She did crush me, maybe i loved the kids and seeing them smile more than I did her, but with all the horrible things she had said and done do you blame me?  So what is the problem I still have?

The fact that i met her children a year after she cheated and broke it off with her husband, the kids got used to me and loved me for around 10 months.  A month after seeing me a new man is openly sleeping in her bed, her daughter was still asking for me at this point, why destroy the mind of a child? Shes going to grow up thinking to either not trust men opr think its ok to sleep with loads of men.    

[jammo1989]

... .must have spent over £10,000 on her over my 2 month relationship, what an idiot I was, am i going to dwell on it, or am i going to say to myself ha ha have fun in your poor pathetic life.

The problem I had and others will do as well is the fact that, we put so much emotion into our relationships and we are left destroyed... .

Your relationship was 60 days?

2 years sorry

[jammo1989]

Hey jammo,

What im getting at here is the fact that, she was abused as a child, she has no mother or father, was put into foster care, lives in a council house, has no education behind her, doesn't have a job, cant afford driving lessons, while im the complete opposite to everything i just mentioned. 

What was the attraction in the first place?  This is looking down on her, yes?

I spent more more money on a holiday for us than she has in her bank

I drive she doesnt

I have a wealthy family, she doesnt

I have a degree she doesnt

In my opinion, ^^this^^ is an "attitude".  If this is the attitude you projected to her, while you were with her, it might've been a big turn-off.  It doesn't show strength, jammo-- it feels to me like insecurity; that's the vibe I'm getting.

You've mentioned that your family is wealthy.  Have you found your own wealth away from your family?

why am i going to let myself get depressed over someone that offers nothing in the eyes of society?    

Society?  Your ex offers nothing in the eyes of society.  Ew, it feels weird even typing that.  I don't agree, jammo.  I agree with Elpis:

And I believe every single human deserves respect and has worth, disordered or not we are all just different from each other.

Is there something else going on other than this breakup?  Are your family relationships okay?

I have a very strong relationship with family, and like i stated before i gave myself this mind set to protect me from my own depression, i dont look down on others, but when someone tries to hurt you you have to think and express your attributes to avoid the negative emotion, she had a great catch and she threw it away.  My only problem now is letting go of the fact that her children are not mine and in that respect none of my business anymore.  I think the reason why I feel strongly about all of this is because, even though  im out of the fog, I still fail to understand even with the disorder, why would someone not only manipulate their own children but to also enforce the fact that her children resent me to, considering how close and what I did for those 3.   

[hurting300]

Jammo, I'll have to agree. People with BPD pretty much do leave a trail of destruction. The jobless rate among these people is upwards of 50 percent. I'm a business owner, and I couldn't even make understand simple cold calls to help me out. Since she left my business has grown to being a pretty big business. All this talk of Co dependency, has anyone stopped and thought well, I only tried helping this person out that is my bad. This is only time I've ever been with a disordered person and hopefully the last time. I want revenge but honestly I'm hitting the anger stage of my healing and I just want this to be over. Just stay away from her.

[Blimblam]

Jammo be careful with all that.

I have personally known a few people that have gotten screwed over and decided they weren't going to let people push them around anymore and take a stand for themself they even describe themselves as alpha males.   Some of these people became  narcissistic douchebags that hold others in contempt to uphold the idea of themselves.  What comes to mind is the classic stereotype of the bullied kid that grows up to be a cop or teacher on a power trip.

[Blimblam]

Jammo

If you have a lot of empathy that's a good thing man. If you close yourself off from your emotions over one bad relationship with someone then the disorder really has won.  If you examine the alpha male crap closely it's a marketing ploy  to justify mysoginy and malignant narcisissm. It just gives me this vibe that it was devised as a cultural thing in the states by psychopaths to make their mindset into a cultural ideal.

[hurting300]

Jammo

If you have a lot of empathy that's a good thing man. If you close yourself off from your emotions over one bad relationship with someone then the disorder really has won.  If you examine the alpha male crap closely it's a marketing ploy  to justify mysoginy and malignant narcisissm. It just gives me this vibe that it was devised as a cultural thing in the states by psychopaths to make their mindset into a cultural ideal.

you also don't want to be a weak man either. Alpha men can have empathy. I'm a ruthless businessman but I also donate my time. And love people.

[Blimblam]

Jammo

If you have a lot of empathy that's a good thing man. If you close yourself off from your emotions over one bad relationship with someone then the disorder really has won.  If you examine the alpha male crap closely it's a marketing ploy  to justify mysoginy and malignant narcisissm. It just gives me this vibe that it was devised as a cultural thing in the states by psychopaths to make their mindset into a cultural ideal.

you also don't want to be a weak man either. Alpha men can have empathy. I'm a ruthless businessman but I also donate my time. And love people.

Fragmented personality

[Rise]

All this talk of Co dependency, has anyone stopped and thought well, I only tried helping this person out that is my bad. This is only time I've ever been with a disordered person and hopefully the last time.

Not everyone on these boards is codependent. Most of us, though, did have at least a codependent relationship (the only relationship I've ever had where codependency was an issue was with my BPDex), which is why it gets discussed so much. For most of us, we got sucked in way deeper than simply trying to help someone out.

you also don't want to be a weak man either. Alpha men can have empathy. I'm a ruthless businessman but I also donate my time. And love people.

I think part of my issue with this whole made up concept of being "Alpha" is that it generalizes people to a stupid degree. Not all Alpha males have to act like self-absorbed jerks. Not all beta males are insecure weaklings. Some people have very strong, out going personalities. Some don't. That doesn't make one type intrinsically superior to the other.

Really, my biggest problem with the whole commercialized "Alpha male" concept is that in most cases, it's a catch phrase for people trying to take advantage of those with self-esteem issues. It tells you that you aren't good enough, and that to be happy, you have to change who you are. Self improvement is great. It's something we should all strive for. But there's a difference between trying to fix some flaws, and pretending to be a different person. Personally, I think it's much healthier to learn to be comfortable with who you are, and appreciate yourself for all your strengths and weaknesses. That's where true self-esteem and confidence comes from. And neither of those things belong exclusively to "Alpha Males".

[CareTaker]

But there's a difference between trying to fix some flaws, and pretending to be a different person.

I think the important factor here is not pretending to be a different person. The idea, especially if you have co-dependency issues is to get some healthy boundaries in place. You have to decide for yourself, what you can accept and not accept. Yes, I was desperately lonely when I met my ex, and even saw the red flags. But because of my issues and not having healthy boundaries, I fell for it.

[123Phoebe]

like i stated before i gave myself this mind set to protect me from my own depression, i dont look down on others, but when someone tries to hurt you you have to think and express your attributes to avoid the negative emotion, she had a great catch and she threw it away. 

I believe in myself and my worth as a human being.  It becomes a "negative attribute" when I attach my worth to a person that I feel is less than me in some way, in order for me to feel better about myself.

Negative emotions aren't going anywhere in this lifetime!  They are part of life.  Avoiding them by giving ourselves mindsets are akin to wearing masks, pretending not to feel negative emotions, i.e., defense mechanisms = the new and improved Alpha Male. 

Healthy self-esteem is a wonderful thing!  Unfortunately, I don't believe many of us had this upon entering our relationships.  Our partners can't take away what we didn't have to begin with, nor can they build our "self"-esteem up from the ground floor. 

jammo, if you believe you have codependent tendencies, then good for you in recognizing it   It's a great starting gate for change.  Change takes place from within.  Read up on codependency.

Within all of those negative emotions that we try so hard to avoid, there are truths about ourselves; some of them are false-truths we've been telling ourselves for years... .that we're not good enough, not even for someone who we feel has so much less than us to recognize.  Hey, screw that!  I'm better than her!  I'm better than him!  I have this that and the other... .they don't.

We have ourselves!  Who are we when not attaching ourselves, our "attributes" to another person?

The answers come from within and they have nothing to do with what somebody else has or doesn't have

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

Alpha male is a strange concept. At work I am the best in my field so I am Alpha in that environment.  At parties I am somewhat shy so definitely not Alpha at a party.  In a Gym I am the opposite of Alpha since I never bother lifting metal.  Playing scrabble I always win so definitely Alpha doing that.  I suspect the ex is in an endless search for Mr Alpha.  Ofcourse when she does find him he will want some intimacy since he is the complete man.  That will just scare her away though.

[Skip]

Woman whether healthy or Cluster Bs want a man that can handle any situation they throw at you, so DONT YOU DARE text them saying i miss you, i love you, can we meet up?  because all your doing here is showing her that she has the power here and not you, and especially for Narcs this power gives them a feeling of superiority.  You must not and can not talk to them like you want them back or want to be friends, it doesnt work like that they are emotional vampires, and you are NOT their emotional dildo for when they want you.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

My ex always used to say to me your going to cry over me one day, your going to chase me because all my other exes do, and you know what? I am the 1st guy she has ever blocked completely, and do you know why that is? Its because im an ALPHA male, i dont chase and i sure as hell dont bow to someone who was and still is below me in every aspect of life!    

Is the point simply to not beg once a girl breaks up?

[jammo1989]

If i had to be completely honest with myself on this topic, I have never been the overly confident type and codependency is a big issue with me, but this is where it gets extremely interesting, when dating a Narc like my ex, you always felt as if you were being compared to others, she made this alpha male.  Yes i agree, its you that makes that decision to change, but id like to share some examples of what im trying to describe:

Sex with her wasn't just sex it was solely based on role play and she needed to be the submissive during these sexual encounters, and im not talking about the i love you intimacy im talking about the treat me like  your little ___ intimacy, hand cuffs and other extremes.  Why am i talking about this? because, Im not that kind of person, she took me from this shy guy to being this incredible God that she described.  Yes i understand this was probably her her way of saying to me " tell me im the best you've ever had" and she did many times.  When someone is being constantly judged its not love i understand that now, but over a long period of time the same traits of thinking i started to produce.  For example:

Her: This guy asked me on a date the other day

Me: What some little council house boy who lives his life in trackies?


Yeah, not the best response you could give, but when youve been with a Narc you will understand that, If you dont sell yourself by being alpha male, they will either walk all over you or emotionally destroy you.  Another honest example, that id like to share:

Her ex husband was better than me, Ill admit it, they were married, had 2 children together, he had a car, i didnt at the time and he was in the army, but she still cheated on him numerous times with no guilt, but here is the catch and its incredibly important.  

I just admitted that she was better off with him than me and he had so much more to offer, BUT... .he used to cry down the phone to her, cried to her in person telling her how much you've hurt me and that he loved her with his heart, and you know what? she didn't care or feel guilt towards him.  Where as, i never once cried over her, I never appeared weak towards her emotionally, I told myself "You will not let her feed her ego with your emotions" and as a result of this I was blocked and discarded.

So the point here is, alpha male is a positive mind set, its not how you look, what you earn and so forth.  Yes i did state before I have this and she doesn't but that just backs up my alpha male mind set regarding this situation.  Anybody whos been with a true narc will tell you that, you will always be compared to others and there's 2 ending to this chapter.

1. Believe their rubbish and channel your emotions inwards resulting in depression and a low self worth  

2. Saying to yourself "She didn't deserve me in the first place"

If im going to be compared to others by her, then im going to at least compare others to me, like her new bf for example, shes gone from a pretty comfortable lifestyle to a jobless boy racer who still lives with his mum in a council house its her loss.      

       

[jammo1989]

Woman whether healthy or Cluster Bs want a man that can handle any situation they throw at you, so DONT YOU DARE text them saying i miss you, i love you, can we meet up?  because all your doing here is showing her that she has the power here and not you, and especially for Narcs this power gives them a feeling of superiority.  You must not and can not talk to them like you want them back or want to be friends, it doesnt work like that they are emotional vampires, and you are NOT their emotional dildo for when they want you.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

My ex always used to say to me your going to cry over me one day, your going to chase me because all my other exes do, and you know what? I am the 1st guy she has ever blocked completely, and do you know why that is? Its because im an ALPHA male, i dont chase and i sure as hell dont bow to someone who was and still is below me in every aspect of life!    

Is the point simply to not beg once a girl breaks up?

Straight to the point there Skip, yeah im basically saying don't chase because If you do they will only pull you back into the vortex ready to use you when needed via mind games, and nobody deserves this!  

[Deeno02]

So what did i do? I laughed at her, smiled back and said your gonna miss this sexy voice (had banter) she then smiled and said im bored of talking to you know go away, so i said awwww am i to hot for you to handle? and she stormed off, havent spoken to her since 4 months NC.

So the moral of this story is, im a MAN not the little boy. She wanted to bully in the playground, Cluster Bs are like dogs they can sense weakness just by looking at you, so initiate NC and show that you are men, flirt with them, not because you love them, but to show them that you will NOT bow to their bull s h i t!

So if you made it that far to not react even after the final discard, celebrate because you are now whats known as a Narc Slayer.

How do "we initiate NC and show that we are men, flirt with them, not because we love them, but to show them that we will NOT bow to their bs!" It seems contradictory.

And "not react even after the final discard= Narc Slayer".  What are we slaying?  When someone discards us, they have lost their attraction.  This also seems contradictory.

Respectfully, this seems like tilting at windmills.

There is humiliation in being devalued- it's painful. But the hard truth may be that we stayed when we were being devalued - we accepted it and accepted it, one small step at a time.  We became increasingly clingy.

The lesson I learned in all of this is to read these signs in ourselves earlier and stop.

The hard question is, why we didn't recognize that we are becoming clingy (codependent) and deal with it? Or maybe how do we recognize that we are becoming clingy and deal with it?

Exactly Skip. Thats what the problem is for me. Recognize my Co-D and work on that. Im not willing to engage her at all. She's "toast" in my life. I just need to keep it from happening again.

[Skip]

Straight to the point there Skip, yeah im basically saying don't chase because If you do they will only pull you back into the vortex ready to use you when needed via mind games, and nobody deserves this!

This is good advice.  When someone breaks up, take it serious and walk away.

Sometimes it is best to boil it down. Linking this to "power" or "alpha male" or generalizing it to "codependency" is confusing as you can see in the posts above.  Alpha male has to do with the pecking order in a pack.

Personally, I see more as a values/boundaries discussion.  If your values include monogamy, and your boundary is no Facebook flirting, then stepping away is upholding your values - living your values.

Does this description make sense: https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

[Deeno02]

Woman whether healthy or Cluster Bs want a man that can handle any situation they throw at you, so DONT YOU DARE text them saying i miss you, i love you, can we meet up?  because all your doing here is showing her that she has the power here and not you, and especially for Narcs this power gives them a feeling of superiority.

jammo, any links on the cluster B stuff?

[jammo1989]

Woman whether healthy or Cluster Bs want a man that can handle any situation they throw at you, so DONT YOU DARE text them saying i miss you, i love you, can we meet up?  because all your doing here is showing her that she has the power here and not you, and especially for Narcs this power gives them a feeling of superiority.

 

jammo, any links on the cluster B stuff?

Any Cluster B type in particular? My ex was a Narc, so a lot of the links ive used in my research is based on these traits, hence why Im so involved on these forums trying to help others who have or may have experienced these types of personalities.  A lot of the BPD I have learned on this forum, HeeeltoHeal is excellent with his answers, but if you feel as though your ex was very much like ive described I can most certainly help!  

[jammo1989]

Straight to the point there Skip, yeah im basically saying don't chase because If you do they will only pull you back into the vortex ready to use you when needed via mind games, and nobody deserves this!

This is good advice.  When someone breaks up, take it serious and walk away.

Sometimes it is best to boil it down. Linking this to "power" or "alpha male" or generalizing it to "codependency" is confusing as you can see in the posts above.  Alpha male has to do with the pecking order in a pack.

Personally, I see more as a values/boundaries discussion.  If your values include monogamy, and your boundary is no Facebook flirting, then stepping away is upholding your values - living your values.

Does this description make sense: https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

Yeah it very much makes sense Skip thank you, but Id also like to highlight something ive learnt from personal experience and it goes hand in hand with the alpha male mindset that I have spoken about.  

In my opinion the BPD is hurting and they try to let you in but cant because of defensive mechanisms, so one feels powerless to protect the one they love.  Ok, so with that in mind, I feel as if its perfectly natural for co dependency to take control because they try to love but cant " I love you... .but please leave alone" So empathy is a natural response to feeling the inner pain of a BPD, its almost like a lost child crying out for someone to protect her.

Where as, the NPD (my ex) is like the queen who expects her fan club to compliment and validate her.  The NPD doesn't give off that natural reaction of deserving your empathy during the devalue and discard stages.  They are merely looking down at you saying "If you dont pull your weight ill drop you in a second" A perfect example of this is as follows:

MY EX: I have better looking boy mates than you

my natural reaction: she thinks im ugly, why ould she say that?

but what she actually was saying is this: I have loads of guys that are interested in me, and if i wanted to i could drop you in a second

So with the NPD you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you dont she will drop you in a second, Id rather be banished from her kingdom because i was to much of a challenge for her games, than her keep me on the back burner because she knew she could manipulate me when needed, I hope that all made sense SKIP.

 

[Skip]

So with the NPD you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you dont she will drop you in a second, Id rather be banished from her kingdom because i was to much of a challenge for her games, than her keep me on the back burner because she knew she could manipulate me when needed, I hope that all made sense SKIP.

But she did drop you and she moved on.  You confronted her, she broke it off.  There was 2 weeks of chaos. You said enough. She dated the other guy.  So no, I don't understand "you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you don't she will drop you in a second" at all.  Unless this is another way of saying if you had it to do over, "don't become clingy".

Also, jammo1989, what actually was going on with the other guy when you first discovered things ("I had noticed on her FB she was liking a lot of pictures from this guy")? Do you know? Had it gone further than liking photos or Facebook banter?  :)id you and her have a calm conversation about it or was it you getting upset and accusing her, and her acting with extreme defensiveness?

[hurting300]

Straight to the point there Skip, yeah im basically saying don't chase because If you do they will only pull you back into the vortex ready to use you when needed via mind games, and nobody deserves this!

This is good advice.  When someone breaks up, take it serious and walk away.

Sometimes it is best to boil it down. Linking this to "power" or "alpha male" or generalizing it to "codependency" is confusing as you can see in the posts above.  Alpha male has to do with the pecking order in a pack.

Personally, I see more as a values/boundaries discussion.  If your values include monogamy, and your boundary is no Facebook flirting, then stepping away is upholding your values - living your values.

Does this description make sense: https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

I can agree with skip on this. Labels are thrown a lot around here. My ex left me because I shifted into confronting her on things. I'm not co dependent by no means. Most of you guys tried your best and put other people before you, that's not a bad thing unless it consumed you.

[jammo1989]

So with the NPD you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you dont she will drop you in a second, Id rather be banished from her kingdom because i was to much of a challenge for her games, than her keep me on the back burner because she knew she could manipulate me when needed, I hope that all made sense SKIP.

But she did drop you and she moved on.  You confronted her, she broke it off.  There was 2 weeks of chaos. You said enough. She dated the other guy.  So no, I don't understand "you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you don't she will drop you in a second" at all.  Unless this is another way of saying if you had it to do over, "don't be clingy".

Also, jammo1989, what actually was going on with the other guy when you first discovered things? Do you know? Was it just Facebook flirting or had it gone further?  :)id you and her have a calm conversation about it or was it you getting upset and accusing and her acting with extreme defensiveness?

The guy in question had known her for a while, she started liking all his pictures on FB, I told her its not really acceptable, because if i liked or even talked to one of my gfs on Fb, it was literally world war 3, the excessive jealousy was just to much at times!  He then messaged her saying lets meet up for some drinks, she replied with yeah sounds good.  I then questioned her by saying you know he likes you and you know hes a player so why are you putting yourself in this position? I was called needy and insecure BUT based on her past she is the kind of girl to go out and cheat, she began even more flirty behavior towards him, and there came a point where I knew what was going on so i said im done.  The day after he posted a status on Facebook saying something like off to ... .for a few days cant wait :D  

[Skip]

Sorry it went down like that. 

[jammo1989]

Sorry it went down like that.  

Maybe alpha male to me means taking control of a situation, or setting strong boundaries, because even though it finished the way it did, it would have carried on hence her wanting to meet up with me again, and the emotional response in the end wasn't a feeling of low self worth it was more  i should have known better.  

[hurting300]

Sorry it went down like that. 

Maybe alpha male to me means taking control of a situation, or setting strong boundaries, because even though it finished the way it did, it would have carried on hence her wanting to meet up with me again, and the emotional response in the end wasnt a feeling of self worth it was i should have known better.   

Alpha means leader of the pack. Nothing is wrong with being strong and holding your ground buddy. I have to do that too. Be strong and don't let someone invade your privacy or space. Most men are beta. And yes beta means weak.

[Skip]

Most men are beta. And yes beta means weak.

Good to know   

[jammo1989]

Sorry it went down like that. 

Maybe alpha male to me means taking control of a situation, or setting strong boundaries, because even though it finished the way it did, it would have carried on hence her wanting to meet up with me again, and the emotional response in the end wasnt a feeling of self worth it was i should have known better.   

Alpha means leader of the pack. Nothing is wrong with being strong and holding your ground buddy. I have to do that too. Be strong and don't let someone invade your privacy or space. Most men are beta. And yes beta means weak.

Thanks hurting that make sense, I was always the one making the plans in the relationship, spending the money making sure all 3 of them were happy and satisfied with life, maybe  at times she felt she was below me, that I will never know, the relationship i encountered was destined to fail from the start as the 1st 8 months we were in a relationship she was still living with her husband 6 hours away in Army accommodation, how i managed to keep my insecurities at bay in that situation I will never know.

[TheDude]

So with the NPD you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you dont she will drop you in a second, Id rather be banished from her kingdom because i was to much of a challenge for her games, than her keep me on the back burner because she knew she could manipulate me when needed,

Not to pile on ya here, jammo, but - what you're describing here is altering yourself as a means to continue engaging in an un-winnable 'game'.

I have a very vivid memory of what was going through my mind as I left the house for the last time. If, during one of the previous break ups, I had won 3 consecutive Powerball Lotteries, 2 Nobel prizes, and been elected King of the World, I still would have ended up driving away in that moving truck.

Food for thought - Altering your behavior for the Facebook example you cite may or may not have temporarily prolonged the inevitable, but the relationship was in deep trouble long before that.

[jammo1989]

So with the NPD you MUST take hold of that alpha male mind set, because if you dont she will drop you in a second, Id rather be banished from her kingdom because i was to much of a challenge for her games, than her keep me on the back burner because she knew she could manipulate me when needed,

Not to pile on ya here, jammo, but - what you're describing here is altering yourself as a means to continue engaging in an un-winnable 'game'.

I have a very vivid memory of what was going through my mind as I left the house for the last time. If, during one of the previous break ups, I had won 3 consecutive Powerball Lotteries, 2 Nobel prizes, and been elected King of the World, I still would have ended up driving away in that moving truck.

Food for thought - Altering your behavior for the Facebook example you cite may or may not have temporarily prolonged the inevitable, but the relationship was in deep trouble long before that.

And thats exactly how it felt, trying to change who I really was to satisfy her by  putting up with with unreasonable behavior, which in reality was only justifying that her behavior was acceptable by fueling the fire.  I grew to realize and understand that, there will always be a back at all times, and if their isn't they will be on their best behavior.     

[Skip]

The relationship i encountered was destined to fail from the start as the 1st 8 months we were in a relationship she was still living with her husband 6 hours away in Army accommodation, how i managed to keep my insecurities at bay in that situation I will never know.

So now that you know "alpha male"... .how would that be best applied to the first 8 months?

So looking back over the entire experience... .what was the greatest lesson learned?  

[jammo1989]

The relationship i encountered was destined to fail from the start as the 1st 8 months we were in a relationship she was still living with her husband 6 hours away in Army accommodation, how i managed to keep my insecurities at bay in that situation I will never know.

So now that you know "alpha male"... .how would that be best applied to the first 8 months?

So looking back over the entire experience... .what was the greatest lesson learned?  

It wasn't applied for the first 8 months, because during this period she was loving me or should i say mirroring me in her idealization period.  So i never felt I had to change because in her eyes I was Mr Perfect, it was only after this period where I had to or should I say felt that I had to always be on alert for any negative remarks regarding  being compared with others.  For example, gfs in the bath while im talking to her, from out of no where

"If you were about 6ft 2 and had tattoos you'd be perfect" (im 5ft 11 btw)

Its this kind of behavior that changes your own mind set because If i were to say yeah i wish i was taller to, she would sense my response as feeling inadequate in her eyes.

The greatest lesson learned was, understanding and realizing that these relationships never last, and the longer you stay in them the weaker your boundaries.  I have also learned about the many red flags, so if anyone else is reading up on this topic i would first focus and evaluate your own needs before others when in a relationship with a Cluster B.         

[TheDude]

jammo, there are similarities in our experiences... .married, kids, etc. - every red flag there could be, not just waving right in front of me, but beating me over the head. I completely (and knowingly) sacrificed all of my own values, standards and intuitions to dive head-first into the mess. I was absolutely intoxicated by the idealization, not to mention the whole damsel in distress bit. I never even thought to ask myself, "If she's capable of doing what she's doing to be with me, why wouldn't she eventually do the same to me?"

I'm about two years out now. At this point, I know more than I need to about her disorders and dysfunctions. I have zero desire to adapt myself in any way to better handle being in a relationship with her or anyone as broken as her. As for the alpha/beta thing, it ultimately wouldn't matter within relationships like these anyway. Their dysfunctions will always be a step ahead of anyone. Just some thoughts. YMMV.

[Skip]

I have also learned about the many red flags, so if anyone else is reading up on this topic i would first focus and evaluate your own needs before others when in a relationship with a Cluster B.        

jammo1989, you might be missing the forest for the trees.

How about having an affair with a married women? Bad idea?

How about being in a rebound relationship after a divorce? Bad idea?

#1 The big lesson (I'm not getting on you, BTW, just reaching out) is not about "alpha male" or cluster B, it's about "values/boundaries". This relationship was wrong on day 1.  For example, if monogamy is a value of yours... .you didn't walk the talk.  How can you expect her to have this value now if neither of you had it to start with?

And rebound relationships have a very high mortality rate. Easy to identify.  Easy to avoid.

#2 The BPD or NPD traits often don't show until we are "all in" into the relationship and months down the road -  learning to recognize them and accept them as unresolvable and step away is the secondary level lesson.  Hard to do but a good goal.

#3 Being an "alpha male" if that means when she is breaking up / stepping out you let go, is a third level lesson. Maintain your dignity as best you an in a humiliating situation.

[Deeno02]

I have also learned about the many red flags, so if anyone else is reading up on this topic i would first focus and evaluate your own needs before others when in a relationship with a Cluster B.        

jammo1989, you might be missing the forest for the trees.

How about having an affair with a married women? Bad idea?

How about being in a rebound relationship after a divorce? Bad idea?

#1 The big lesson (I'm not getting on you, BTW, just reaching out) is not about "alpha male" or cluster B, it's about "values/boundaries". This relationship was wrong on day 1.  For example, if monogamy is a value of yours... .you didn't walk the talk.  How can you expect her to have this value now if neither of you had it to start with?

And rebound relationships have a very high mortality rate. Easy to identify.  Easy to avoid.

#2 The BPD or NPD traits often don't show until we are "all in" into the relationship and months down the road -  learning to recognize them and accept them as unresolvable and step away is the secondary level lesson.  Hard to do but a good goal.

#3 Being an "alpha male" if that means when she is breaking up / stepping out you let go, is a third level lesson. Maintain your dignity as best you an in a humiliating situation.

Tell me more Skip! Man, you are so right about rebound. I was a year and change after my divorce. She was just freshly separated, starting divorce process. I fell in. Thought I was ready. Seems we both weren't. Spot on about traits not showing. Devastated my ass. Think I may have knew something was amiss, but ignored it as stress from her ongoing divorce. Man, I messed up

[hurting300]

Most men are beta. And yes beta means weak.

Good to know   

mistyped that skip. Most men are alpha sorry. If you look up alpha male it takes you to the animal kingdom. Meaning it's mostly talking about the pack leader.

[jammo1989]

I have also learned about the many red flags, so if anyone else is reading up on this topic i would first focus and evaluate your own needs before others when in a relationship with a Cluster B.        

jammo1989, you might be missing the forest for the trees.

How about having an affair with a married women? Bad idea?

How about being in a rebound relationship after a divorce? Bad idea?

#1 The big lesson (I'm not getting on you, BTW, just reaching out) is not about "alpha male" or cluster B, it's about "values/boundaries". This relationship was wrong on day 1.  For example, if monogamy is a value of yours... .you didn't walk the talk.  How can you expect her to have this value now if neither of you had it to start with?

And rebound relationships have a very high mortality rate. Easy to identify.  Easy to avoid.

#2 The BPD or NPD traits often don't show until we are "all in" into the relationship and months down the road -  learning to recognize them and accept them as unresolvable and step away is the secondary level lesson.  Hard to do but a good goal.

#3 Being an "alpha male" if that means when she is breaking up / stepping out you let go, is a third level lesson. Maintain your dignity as best you an in a humiliating situation.

This was extremely informative Skip thank you, could you speak further on this post please? yeah your right literally 2 weeks after she split with her husband she was sexting me, and the first night i met her we had sex on her mothers couch, she was incredibly sexual towards me almost nympho like, but i try to reason with myself at times and say "Her mother was and still is the cause to her behavior.  For example:

The morning after the night before i met my exes mother she would talk to me like she had known me for years telling me all these messed up stories (made me a bit anxious) and my ex was in the shower, I was desperate for the toilet so i as shuffling on the sofa trying to hold it in (as you do) and her mum said to me do you need the toilet? i replied with yeah, and her response was "Go to the toilet and jump in the shower with (my exes name) she wont mind, next thing you know 2nd day ive ever met those 2 i was showering with my ex while her mum was in the front room. My question skip is:

By adapting such behavior or should i say openness to sex by her mother, does this mean that she sees sex or intimacy without attachment, or is she just so use to it that sex to her isn't something she would even see as being a problem with others?

P.s her mum also heard us having sex on the 1st night and in the morning her mum says to my ex laughing "James sounds a right animal in bed you were loving it (exes name name) because i could hear you.

To me that doesnt just show lack of parenting skills, but to me it also shows the signs of a narcissistic mother because no defenses have ever been put up by her to protect her own daughter, hence why she went into care as a child

Thank you all for your responses it really does help alot!        

[Blimblam]

Most men are beta. And yes beta means weak.

Good to know   

mistyped that skip. Most men are alpha sorry. If you look up alpha male it takes you to the animal kingdom. Meaning it's mostly talking about the pack leader.

Humans are more like bonobos than we are Chimps or dogs. 

[Infared]

Sounds like a bunch of unhealthy games to me. On both people's part.

[jammo1989]

Sounds like a bunch of unhealthy games to me. On both people's part.

Both peoples part?

[Skip]

By adapting such behavior or should i say openness to sex by her mother, does this mean that she sees sex or intimacy without attachment, or is she just so use to it that sex to her isn't something she would even see as being a problem with others?

Mom was looking to be validated and liked. These are very poor and intrusive social skills with both you and her daughter. The decisions to shower and have sexual relations should obviously be a private matter between you and the daughter.  

How mom's raising of her daughter affects her attachment is far more related to how she treated her as a young child.  If her mom has a "BPD" mindset, there are inevitably attachment issues.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/have-your-parents-put-you-risk-psychopathology

[Infared]

Sounds like a bunch of unhealthy games to me. On both people's part.

Both peoples part?

Yes.  This is just my outlook... .

What are you trying to prove playing games with a very sick person?

I just walked away once I got it... .and it took me quite a while because of the drastic change in my exBPD's behavior. I was hurt, bewildered and confused, at first.  With the advice of a T, I got away from all the drama and headed for help and support to find out what my part in the unhealthy relationship was.  I did make choices that put me there. I feel I was a victim to a degree... but I still had responsibility for making the choices that put me there.

Why play the mental games to get someone to behave a certain way? What is the point? Aren't you just a part of the problem, then?

I sense a lot of anger here and need to control. I don't see any love, or adult behavior in that equation?

I am just being honest.

That is what I see here.

[jammo1989]

Sounds like a bunch of unhealthy games to me. On both people's part.

Both peoples part?

Yes.  This is just my outlook... .

What are you trying to prove playing games with a very sick person?

I just walked away once I got it... .and it took me quite a while because of the drastic change in my exBPD's behavior. I was hurt, bewildered and confused, at first.  With the advice of a T, I got away from all the drama and headed for help and support to find out what my part in the unhealthy relationship was.  I did make choices that put me there. I feel I was a victim to a degree... but I still had responsibility for making the choices that put me there.

Why play the mental games to get someone to behave a certain way? What is the point? Aren't you just a part of the problem, then?

I sense a lot of anger here and need to control. I don't see any love, or adult behavior in that equation?

I am just being honest.

That is what I see here.

I see where your coming from, at the end of the day they are still human and we should accept them for who they are, but, there comes a times later down the road where you have given so much much emotionally and financially that your views and boundaries need to be met.  For example, working overtime to  cater for them and their needs, and the basic principles of being fair aren't being met.  Expecting you to wash up when you get home, expecting you to cook when you get home.  When you start to strengthen your boundaries they tend to play the role of the victim *why do you never see me as good enough for you?* and like Blimblam very interestingly said reverse it *I don't see myself as good enough for you*yet I do agree and emphasise what your saying about trying to change their behaviour, but when it becomes destructive it is only human nature for a man to try and take control of the situation, where it's based on her lack of contribution within the relationship or her lack of boundaries towards you as their loving partner.

[Elpis]

but when it becomes destructive it is only human nature for a man to try and take control of the situation, where it's based on her lack of contribution within the relationship or her lack of boundaries towards you as their loving partner.

When my 38 year relationship hit the boiling point I chose to take control of my own choices in the relationship, and that's when I left. I went through a lot of emotions--exhilaration at my freedom, fear of his retribution, anger at all I've lost, resentment that he still has our doggies and lives in our house... .so many things. But at the end of the day it comes down to me choosing to have balance in my own life.

That actually leaves the other person out of the equation as far as our control.

[hurting300]

Jammo, mine left me because I was blunt. When she lied, I told low life people lie. When she was lazy and wouldn't work, I told her i didn't truck with losers. So she left. Good for her. Now she can be poor, date losers and live off the land for all I care. If you wanna create firm boundaries tell her the straight up truth. Hurt her feelings if need be. No games needed. My dad raised me to confront a problem and fix it with even handed force. I suggest you do the same.

[jammo1989]

Jammo, mine left me because I was blunt. When she lied, I told low life people lie. When she was lazy and wouldn't work, I told her i didn't truck with losers. So she left. Good for her. Now she can be poor, date losers and live off the land for all I care. If you wanna create firm boundaries tell her the straight up truth. Hurt her feelings if need be. No games needed. My dad raised me to confront a problem and fix it with even handed force. I suggest you do the same.

I became blunt with her towards the end as well, because she had 2 children that I cared for immensely, and she told me her youngest was starting school next year, and that she didn't want her kids to grow up.  Next thing I know I was being told I want your baby, not just anybody's baby but yours! She cried and cried longing to be pregnant again, and I turned around in the end and said, what are you going to do for your kids inheritance, you don't work so what about your pension? You say you want the best for your children and to do that you need a long term plan for them.  I was solely looking out for her children's interests, 3 weeks later she's with a new guy, so that baby was only going to be used to trap me either financially or to make sure I was always there when needed, it wasn't based on love that's for sure.

[Elpis]

Now she can be poor, date losers and live off the land for all I care.

Hurting300, this line really made me laugh! I do love when we who are in pain can find a startlingly humorous way to see things!

[Infared]

Sounds like a bunch of unhealthy games to me. On both people's part.

Both peoples part?

Yes.  This is just my outlook... .

What are you trying to prove playing games with a very sick person?

I just walked away once I got it... .and it took me quite a while because of the drastic change in my exBPD's behavior. I was hurt, bewildered and confused, at first.  With the advice of a T, I got away from all the drama and headed for help and support to find out what my part in the unhealthy relationship was.  I did make choices that put me there. I feel I was a victim to a degree... but I still had responsibility for making the choices that put me there.

Why play the mental games to get someone to behave a certain way? What is the point? Aren't you just a part of the problem, then?

I sense a lot of anger here and need to control. I don't see any love, or adult behavior in that equation?

I am just being honest.

That is what I see here.

I see where your coming from, at the end of the day they are still human and we should accept them for who they are, but, there comes a times later down the road where you have given so much much emotionally and financially that your views and boundaries need to be met.  For example, working overtime to  cater for them and their needs, and the basic principles of being fair aren't being met.  Expecting you to wash up when you get home, expecting you to cook when you get home.  When you start to strengthen your boundaries they tend to play the role of the victim *why do you never see me as good enough for you?* and like Blimblam very interestingly said reverse it *I don't see myself as good enough for you*yet I do agree and emphasise what your saying about trying to change their behaviour, but when it becomes destructive it is only human nature for a man to try and take control of the situation, where it's based on her lack of contribution within the relationship or her lack of boundaries towards you as their loving partner.

Yeah... Jammo... not trying to beat you up... .I did a lot of therapy after the abandonment and the lies... Group therapy too... .(I am no expert... just trying to survive!), and one day... when I got a little better, healed somewhat... .I was sitting there and someone said something,... don't recall what it was... .but in that moment I saw that "I was part of the problem" ... .as silly as that sounds when you own that, just for you (me)... .it really gave me a chance to grow and change... .  All I could do is work on me. A lot of things clicked into place.

Rechently ex years after, still with my replacement that she never cheated on me with (LOL!), she tried to ambush me in a parking lot (it was a planned event on her part i realized just after the encounter) and I just put my head down and went around her. My reflex was to protect me. She hasn't changed (still playing psycho games), I can't change her (I am a surfer ... .I chose in that moment to "duck-dive" that wave)... .that is when you are paddling out and you push the nose of the board down and go under all of the energy and let it go over your head.  You get somewhere.  Engaging with that is just an endless painful circle... .I let it go... I stay away from the poison.  Its healthier for me. Sad... I felt that I loved her so... .but there is nothing healthy there for me.

[hurting300]

My part of the problem is I didn't know about mental illness. I just saw odd behavior and nailed her on it. That's the only thing I could do. After she left I spent nearly a thousand dollars being tested for personality disorders. I was simply ripped off by a professional sociopathic con artist. I very well could have handled my self better and been more supportive but she couldn't give me the simple pleasure of just being "honest". I'm to valuable for her. And she knows it. God bless her though. I know now thru our investigation she was abused badly and abandoned. Its truly not her fault. I pray she finds peace but that will only come when our God takes her breath away.

[jammo1989]

My part of the problem is I didn't know about mental illness. I just saw odd behavior and nailed her on it. That's the only thing I could do. After she left I spent nearly a thousand dollars being tested for personality disorders. I was simply ripped off by a professional sociopathic con artist. I very well could have handled my self better and been more supportive but she couldn't give me the simple pleasure of just being "honest". I'm to valuable for her. And she knows it. God bless her though. I know now thru our investigation she was abused badly and abandoned. Its truly not her fault. I pray she finds peace but that will only come when our God takes her breath away.

Hurting this may or may not be any help to you but, from my own experience its seems that we were kind of in the same boat.  I can assure you im not as wealthy as you but when comparing ourselves with our exes we can clearly see that they had no job, on benefits, no education and in my case not even passed her theory test.  The point id like to address here is this.  My ex tried to let me in at times, but would never let me see inside her for long enough to fully understand where the problem lied.  For example:

I just want somebody to understand me me, i dont want your money i just want to be accepted for who i am

But everytime i tried to understand her cruel nature would surface, she even said *good like in finding the next girl because one day you will realise its not all about money James, so dont come crying to me if they do because ill just say i told you so*

But... .When i stopped paying for everything and asked her to go halfs on everything thats when she started throwing temper tantrums and pushing me away, so the point here is, actions speak louder than words, so in my opinions, her words were merely a way to make her look and feel like the victim.   

[Elpis]

I would love for you to understand, Jammo, that because I don't have a job and I didn't finish college that you are not better than me. Likely I understand things that you do not because of my life experience. I spent decades caring for my family and my uBPDh and those were not worthless years. Please reconsider your need to feel "superior." It's not a healthy one.

[hurting300]

Yeah man I know what you mean, the 18 months we were together she only cooked for me twice and bought me one meal from McDonald's. Poor excuse for a human. I am wealthy now, I haven't always been. She has no idea I've hit it big. As far as she knows I still work at the mill. But before she left I clearly told her it was about to happen that all I needed was help. Well it did happen. So she screwed herself over . Money is no issue with these people. Her ex killed himself after she left him. She admitted she tortured him in the end. His family is worth millions. You just can't make them happy. She and her family act rich but they live in ruins . I feel for you man i do. You can and will do better. My life has been so much better. I do miss her and waft my child back and I will. But the progress I've made... .I'd be poor still if she was here. And unhappy. She and your ex can't be trusted.

[hurting300]

I would love for you to understand, Jammo, that because I don't have a job and I didn't finish college that you are not better than me. Likely I understand things that you do not because of my life experience. I spent decades caring for my family and my uBPDh and those were not worthless years. Please reconsider your need to feel "superior." It's not a healthy one.

jammo, does not come across to me that way. He has been deeply hurt. He needs to feel this way to work thru it. He certainly is better than his ex.

[jammo1989]

I would love for you to understand, Jammo, that because I don't have a job and I didn't finish college that you are not better than me. Likely I understand things that you do not because of my life experience. I spent decades caring for my family and my uBPDh and those were not worthless years. Please reconsider your need to feel "superior." It's not a healthy one.

I don't think I am superior to anyone far from it, that's not how I'm trying to come across here at all, im trying to explain that, I just like others gave so much and got nothing back apart from a cruel discard and an instant replacement.  If someone loved me and stood by me then money would mean nothing because it actually doesn't, but when you put so much into something with with no regards or appreciation from your partner that's when you become resentful.  I, just like hurting are not implying we are superior, all we are saying here is if the person we were with didn't appeciate what we did for them then they can live the less fortunate life before us.  It's like a woman trapping me via pregnancy a woman has 4 children and has never worked a day in her life she is in it for the financial support, why like others would she deserve our respect knowing she's now living off others while at the same time having no regards for others?

I've been in relationships where I bent over backwards and it was appreciated I got my ex Polish gf 78% on her dissertation, she never had much, but she was a loyal person who I still till this day would help financially and emotionally if she needed me.  Where as, with the people that don't appreciate what you do and expect it, they need to be put in their place.  So no, this isn't about superiority, it's about not being taken for a mug, I'm sure you are a very caring Individual and with that in mind no one would or should look down on you.  I really hope you understand what me and hurting are trying to explain here.  I'm not superior by any sense of the word, Hurting owns his own business, but he's not acting superior to me or others on this forum, but if people took his good will for granted like use, use, use then he just I is going to be very resentful.

[EaglesJuju]

Although it is good to work through the hurt from our pwBPD, I think it diverts us from the original topic of codependency.  When we constantly shift the blame on the pwBPD, isn't that the same as us painting the disordered person black?

[Elpis]

I don't think I am superior to anyone far from it, that's not how I'm trying to come across here at all, im trying to explain that, I just like others gave so much and got nothing back apart from a cruel discard and an instant replacement.  but if people took his good will for granted like use, use, use then he just I is going to be very resentful.

Oh heck yes I've been resentful too, trust me. My uBPDh lives in our house and has our doggies that I've raised since they were puppies. There's reason to be resentful for a time, I understand. I don't mean either of  you is being superior to anyone here in the community, I simply meant it hurts our own souls in the long run to take that attitude about our ex.

[jammo1989]

I would love for you to understand, Jammo, that because I don't have a job and I didn't finish college that you are not better than me. Likely I understand things that you do not because of my life experience. I spent decades caring for my family and my uBPDh and those were not worthless years. Please reconsider your need to feel "superior." It's not a healthy one.

jammo, does not come across to me that way. He has been deeply hurt. He needs to feel this way to work thru it. He certainly is better than his ex.

Thank you for your support hurting, here's a great example why I look down on my ex, but not others:

I like in the UK, the last weekend we ever spent together was in Cardiff, I spent £300 in a day and I had nothing to show for it, because it was all spent on her and the kids.  She was so seductive and sexual throughout she said to me I need a new dildo because we broke my last one remember? She goes into Anne Summers so open and forward * I'm looking for a dildo to play with for when the fellas not around, I need a sturdy one although the glass ones look nice* she then turns to me baby it's £50 and I said ok if you really want it we will go halves.  She then paid for it and said * because I payed the full amount can you buy (her sons name) the Sky landers he wanted please?* so I then spent £42 on Sky landers, we go home she plays with her new toy being all seductive making me watch and not allowed to touch (seducing me) the day after I get told i have to leave early because she wants to spend time with the kids and dumps me over the phone the following day.

Now do you see why I look down on her poor, pathetic life?

If someone loved or cared for me in a healthy, mature way money wouldn't even come I to this, I remember dating my ex Polish gf and there were times where I leant her money because she was struggling with bills, she was in University and working in Morrisions on minimum wage trying to keep her self a float, and I helped her and still do, and I don't look down on her what so ever she was a great gf.  But, my ex who didn't appreciate it I will look down at and laugh at her lack of money in the bank, education and so forth, why? Because she doesn't deserve my good will.

[TheDude]

But, my ex who didn't appreciate it I will look down at and laugh at her lack of money in the bank, education and so forth, why? Because she doesn't deserve my good will.

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." - Elie Wiesel

[jammo1989]

But, my ex who didn't appreciate it I will look down at and laugh at her lack of money in the bank, education and so forth, why? Because she doesn't deserve my good will.

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." - Elie Wiesel

Dude I've always said that, but here's why it has always confused me, if my ex ex told me to never contact her again, blocks me and moves on that's not in difference that's hate, and with hate meant love must have been replaced, because people who are indifferent don't make the effort to block and push others a way as much as they possibly can, or am I wrong?

[Elpis]

This is a great article about codependency, and even mentions me, the "codependent enabler." Go me.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

And from the article: Symptoms of Codependency

Daniel Harkness, Ph.D., LCSW, professor at Boise State University says that some of the most commonly cited symptoms of codependency are:

intense and unstable interpersonal relationships,

inability to tolerate being alone, accompanied by frantic efforts to avoid being alone,

chronic feelings of boredom and emptiness,

subordinating one's own needs to those of the person with whom one is involved,

overwhelming desire for acceptance and affection,

external referencing,

dishonesty and denial, and

low self-worth.


For me, I relate to the "subordinating one's own needs" and "overwhelming desire for acceptance and affection" and "low self worth." Those things allowed me to remain trapped in an unhealthy situation.

So in that scenario, where do you see your codependent behavior?

[EaglesJuju]

Dude I've always said that, but here's why it has always confused me, if my ex ex told me to never contact her again, blocks me and moves on that's not in difference that's hate, and with hate meant love must have been replaced, because people who are indifferent don't make the effort to block and push others a way as much as they possibly can, or am I wrong?

I do not believe that the maladaptive behaviors of a disordered person has anything to do with love and hate.  Regardless of the reasons why they do it, it has nothing to do with us. 

[TheDude]

Dude I've always said that, but here's why it has always confused me, if my ex ex told me to never contact her again, blocks me and moves on that's not in difference that's hate, and with hate meant love must have been replaced, because people who are indifferent don't make the effort to block and push others a way as much as they possibly can, or am I wrong?

You're deflecting the context away from yourself. Your statement was about your judgement and criticism (anger and hate) toward your ex. I get that - we've all been there, but the focus on the actions and emotions of others distracts from the focus on ourselves. Know what I'm getting at? With acceptance and a re-direct of focus comes indifference.

[hurting300]

Just chalk it up to a life lesson. That's all we can do.

[Infared]

My part of the problem is I didn't know about mental illness. I just saw odd behavior and nailed her on it. That's the only thing I could do. After she left I spent nearly a thousand dollars being tested for personality disorders. I was simply ripped off by a professional sociopathic con artist. I very well could have handled my self better and been more supportive but she couldn't give me the simple pleasure of just being "honest". I'm to valuable for her. And she knows it. God bless her though. I know now thru our investigation she was abused badly and abandoned. Its truly not her fault. I pray she finds peace but that will only come when our God takes her breath away.

Yeah... .I had no clue that she was ill... .she was mirroring me and I didn't see it until long after either... .but boy... .does it all fall in place with her childhood emotional damage, only child... .Then her history before me and now where she is... and how she has acted in public toward me  just says it all.

She got together with my replacement through playing victim,  lies and deceit and a LOT of alcohol consumption.  Not exactly the makings for a good relationship.  ... .but I have learned a LOT and I am glad that all the pain eventually turned into something positive.

I am glad that this site is here to help us all understand things more.

[Trog]

Dude I've always said that, but here's why it has always confused me, if my ex ex told me to never contact her again, blocks me and moves on that's not in difference that's hate, and with hate meant love must have been replaced, because people who are indifferent don't make the effort to block and push others a way as much as they possibly can, or am I wrong?

You're deflecting the context away from yourself. Your statement was about your judgement and criticism (anger and hate) toward your ex. I get that - we've all been there, but the focus on the actions and emotions of others distracts from the focus on ourselves. Know what I'm getting at? With acceptance and a re-direct of focus comes indifference.

What I take from the Elie quote is that surely then I never loved my ex. If the opposite of love is not hate and right now I'm as close to hate as I've been with anyone, then I never loved her? The real love that is. I married her, I gave a lot, I've had nothing but pain in return for years and disrespect and out and out cruelty, she surely never loved me and... .I'm beginning to think perhaps I never loved her.

[jammo1989]

Dude I've always said that, but here's why it has always confused me, if my ex ex told me to never contact her again, blocks me and moves on that's not in difference that's hate, and with hate meant love must have been replaced, because people who are indifferent don't make the effort to block and push others a way as much as they possibly can, or am I wrong?

You're deflecting the context away from yourself. Your statement was about your judgement and criticism (anger and hate) toward your ex. I get that - we've all been there, but the focus on the actions and emotions of others distracts from the focus on ourselves.

Know what I'm getting at? With acceptance and a re-direct of focus comes indifference.

I can relate to this at 1st it was the porn like sex that drew me in (the hook) but a year later I met her 2 children, and i a lot of the time I was more excited to spend time with them than I was my ex.  I built an incredibly strong bond with her 3 year old daughter I was used to hold her hand in public and carry her everywhere, her 3 year old daughter didn't like men, and even refused to hold her dads hand in public, so she built up a lot of trust towards me.  The thing that still has my head spinning is this:

Why is it that I never once cried tears over my ex even when she got into a new relationship 3 weeks after we split, but I still can't get over the whole situation?  I was with my Polish ex for 6th months, I cried for weeks over her, and now we are really good friends 3 years later, is it because of the push/pull behaviour up until the very end or?

What I take from the Elie quote is that surely then I never loved my ex. If the opposite of love is not hate and right now I'm as close to hate as I've been with anyone, then I never loved her? The real love that is. I married her, I gave a lot, I've had nothing but pain in return for years and disrespect and out and out cruelty, she surely never loved me and... .I'm beginning to think perhaps I never loved her.

[TheDude]

What I take from the Elie quote is that surely then I never loved my ex. If the opposite of love is not hate and right now I'm as close to hate as I've been with anyone, then I never loved her? The real love that is. I married her, I gave a lot, I've had nothing but pain in return for years and disrespect and out and out cruelty, she surely never loved me and... .I'm beginning to think perhaps I never loved her.

My take on that subject is that hate is the flip-side of the same coin as love, not a different coin. One is intrinsically connected to the other in that the intensity of the anger is directly proportionate to the intensity of the love.

To the original subject though - from that 20,000 foot view, the big picture, the forest for the trees - an ex is never the cause of codependency, but a symptom.

[Trog]

What I take from the Elie quote is that surely then I never loved my ex. If the opposite of love is not hate and right now I'm as close to hate as I've been with anyone, then I never loved her? The real love that is. I married her, I gave a lot, I've had nothing but pain in return for years and disrespect and out and out cruelty, she surely never loved me and... .I'm beginning to think perhaps I never loved her.

My take on that subject is that hate is the flip-side of the same coin as love, not a different coin. One is intrinsically connected to the other in that the intensity of the anger is directly proportionate to the intensity of the love.

To the original subject though - from that 20,000 foot view, the big picture, the forest for the trees - an ex is never the cause of codependency, but a symptom.

For sure' looking back my other exes, though not as extreme as her, certainly gave her a run for her money at times in taking/hurting/treating disrespectfully but the common denominator here is me (us).

Well finally, I love me more than any of them and while healing and understanding what I am drawing into my life will take effort, I am at least resolute that these kinds of 'love' are not good enough for me and I want something better, much better.

[jammo1989]

I have a question guys and it's been bothering me for a while.  You all know that my ex tried pulling me back into the vortex until the final day of being discarded and told to never contact her again, because she officially moved on is that still considered the silent treatment that we all know about? Or is it literally NC.  I always took it as the silent treatment because I was being pulled in until the very end, and to me it's like a spoilt little chld that didn't get what they wanted so I saw it as a way to punish me, but the more I look into It I don't even think these actions is a case of the silent treatment, could someone answer this please?

NC is used by the victim to protect themselves by severing ties for their own mental health, where as the silent treatment is used to emotionally abuse and punish the perpetrator, am I right?

[hurting300]

I have a question guys and it's been bothering me for a while.  You all know that my ex tried pulling me back into the vortex until the final day of being discarded and told to never contact her again, because she officially moved on is that still considered the silent treatment that we all know about? Or is it literally NC.  I always took it as the silent treatment because I was being pulled in until the very end, and to me it's like a spoilt little chld that didn't get what they wanted so I saw it as a way to punish me, but the more I look into It I don't even think these actions is a case of the silent treatment, could someone answer this please?

NC is used by the victim to protect themselves by severing ties for their own mental health, where as the silent treatment is used to emotionally abuse and punish the perpetrator, am I right?

ok. (NO CONTACT) means they have TOLD you don't contact me again. (SILENT TREATMENT) is what I'm getting. There simply disappear and don't say anything. So no contact is always preempted by (don't contact me)

[TheDude]

NC is used by the victim to protect themselves by severing ties for their own mental health, where as the silent treatment is used to emotionally abuse and punish the perpetrator, am I right?

Sort of, I suppose. Let me put it another way, though. No Contact is used by anyone wanting to heal from the loss of a relationship, and enforces boundaries, separation and detachment. The victim label is optional. How anyone else 'uses' the concept is ultimately irrelevant.

Let me reiterate my previous point - as it relates to "breaking free from codependency", the in-depth analysis of every aspect of her behavior is actually the very opposite. What are you doing about you and your codependent behaviors? Not gettin' on ya, man, just food for thought.

[hurting300]

NC is used by the victim to protect themselves by severing ties for their own mental health, where as the silent treatment is used to emotionally abuse and punish the perpetrator, am I right?

Sort of, I suppose. Let me put it another way, though. No Contact is used by anyone wanting to heal from the loss of a relationship, and enforces boundaries, separation and detachment. The victim label is optional. How anyone else 'uses' the concept is ultimately irrelevant.

Let me reiterate my previous point - as it relates to "breaking free from codependency", the in-depth analysis of every aspect of her behavior is actually the very opposite. What are you doing about you and your codependent behaviors? Not gettin' on ya, man, just food for thought.

I think he was asking what she is doing if I read that right. But no contact always follows "leave me alone" other wise it's relationship abandonment and silent treatment.

[TheDude]

I think he was asking what she is doing if I read that right.

Yep. I know. That's why I answered the way I did. 

[hurting300]

I think he was asking what she is doing if I read that right.

Yep. I know. That's why I answered the way I did. 

haha sorry buddy.

[Infared]

NC is used by the victim to protect themselves by severing ties for their own mental health, where as the silent treatment is used to emotionally abuse and punish the perpetrator, am I right?

Sort of, I suppose. Let me put it another way, though. No Contact is used by anyone wanting to heal from the loss of a relationship, and enforces boundaries, separation and detachment. The victim label is optional. How anyone else 'uses' the concept is ultimately irrelevant.

Let me reiterate my previous point - as it relates to "breaking free from codependency", the in-depth analysis of every aspect of her behavior is actually the very opposite. What are you doing about you and your codependent behaviors? Not gettin' on ya, man, just food for thought.

+100

NC is instituted by YOU for YOU to protect YOU from abuse, to get YOU away from the dysfunctional drama, to allow YOU to heal and move on from a sick person.

NC is not a tactic to keep engaging in a sick relationship.

Once you make that healthy decision for YOU, it just doesn't/shouldn't matter what she does.

You are making a healthy decision for your life.

You are done with it.