On Humiliation and getting back at them

[NCEA]

A lot of people here can't get over with it for a long time.

I think a lot of it has to do with being humiliated by an ugly discard.

It's not a normal break up. Mine told me she was "crazy in love" with someone after knowing him 4 days, and canceled my plans to move to her city after I've already booked a flight and apartment.

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

Was your discard humiliating too? Any thoughts on this?

[Schermarhorn]

A lot of people here can't get over with it for a long time.

I think a lot of it has to do with being humiliated by an ugly discard.

It's not a normal break up. Mine told me she was "crazy in love" with someone after knowing him 4 days, and canceled my plans to move to her city after I've already booked a flight and apartment.

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

Was your discard humiliating too? Any thoughts on this?

My way of getting back at her is fixing myself and having a successful relationship.

They have enough problems on their own.

[NCEA]

Getting back AT them. Not with them.

I feel it's important to take control back, by writing the true last note.

[hope2727]

I was devastated. Humiliated and devasted by the man who swore I was the love of his life. I do not want revenge. Justice? Perhaps. Revenge?  No. Mostly I just want the man I love back. I feel like he is lost in there somewhere. I know it's unrealistic but it's how I feel. :-(

I do totally understand what you are saying however. It does make sense.  It just isn't how I feel.

[LostGhost]

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

The best revenge is to move forward and devote all effort to living a good life. I know it's easier said than done but if necessary, take solace in the fact they'll never have a good life, so revenge is a moot point.

[AwakenedOne]

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

1. Sorry your hurting.

2. I guess you could call what was done to me by her as humiliating. I was too busy though and in survival mode to be humiliated by someone that I considered at the time to be evil. Learning about her possibility of having BPD lessened that a whole lot though.

3. Can your ex be "crazy in love" with someone after 4 days? Or is she just doing something that is crazy that you shouldn't take personally due to the fact of her being crazy?

4. BPD is a spectrum disorder. Some with BPD are violent, dangerous and or suicidal. If you humiliate them something terrible could happen. I was married to a woman on that end of the spectrum.

5. Humiliating someone else doesn't accomplish anything positive for you or anyone. She will not learn any lessons and will not be cured of BPD due to that action.

6. Like Itstopsnow wrote above, in a lot of ways even being with them in the relationship was the most humiliating thing.

7. If you humiliate them for payback you might one day regret stooping to their level. Better to have a feeling of knowing you took the high road.

[NCEA]

I disagree.

If the first person they've hit would teach them a lesson - non of use would have been here.

It's on.

[enlighten me]

I disagree.

All that getting revenge on them does is make them think that you are the bad guy and they where right about you.

You are not dealing with a logical mind. You are dealing with someone who acts on feelings. Its not normally premeditated its reaction and survival instinct. They may never realise the consequences of their actions so no lesson will be learnt.

[NCEA]

She'll never know it was me. I believe she'll think it's karma, possibly linking it to me knowing the universe it getting back at her, and in away it does (I'm part of the universe, right?). She's spiritual and she'll get the message.

It may take 2-3 months, I'm not in a hurry, and it's going to be elaborated. I'm also interested in how it will make me feel, I think it will kick any bad feelings out the window. Call it childish or whatever but I gave it 3 months, the feeling is not going away, so I'll be active about it.

Woke up at 3:30 am today due to the over the counter meds I took yesterday. Sc--rew this.

[bAlex]

A lot of people here can't get over with it for a long time.

I think a lot of it has to do with being humiliated by an ugly discard.

It's not a normal break up. Mine told me she was "crazy in love" with someone after knowing him 4 days, and canceled my plans to move to her city after I've already booked a flight and apartment.

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

Was your discard humiliating too? Any thoughts on this?

I would love nothing more than to get back at her. Although I have seen her get her share of bad luck, it was only satisfying for a moment... She's incredibly strong and gets over anything in a blink of an eye, I kinda envy that. She's really like a child who gets a hiding for being bad, cries about it, and 10min later she's laughing and playing outside again... I've been humiliated many times too, but it would be impossible to do the same to her, so I think it's futile anyway.

[NCEA]

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

3. Can your ex be "crazy in love" with someone after 4 days? Or is she just doing something that is crazy that you shouldn't take personally due to the fact of her being crazy?

Does it matter? The fact is, I've been feeling like $hit for 3 months now, and really longer due to the mind games. I don't care it's not personal, I'm "returning balance to the force". You know what they said about the Nazi's, it's not that everybody supported them, but everybody just stood there and let them take power and do what they did. So the line stops with me, I won't be a bystander. She thinks she can do this with impunity because most men are weak and wouldn't even think of this.

The line stops with me.

It's not going to be physical of course or anything illegal but it's going to be humiliating and hurt. A lot. And honestly I wish you'd do the same. We could start a movement. Educating people. Maybe these people should be listed on some site, like sex offenders. Why not? Why sex offenders yes and emotional monsters not? Five years from now this could be legislated. People with diagnosed personality disorders should be listed. Think how much harm it would save.

[bAlex]

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

3. Can your ex be "crazy in love" with someone after 4 days? Or is she just doing something that is crazy that you shouldn't take personally due to the fact of her being crazy?

Does it matter? The fact is, I've been feeling like $hit for 3 months now, and really longer due to the mind games. I don't care it's not personal, I'm "returning balance to the force". You know what they said about the Nazi's, it's not that everybody supported them, but everybody just stood there and let them take power and do what they did. So the line stops with me, I won't be a bystander. She thinks she can do this with impunity because most men are weak and wouldn't even think of this.

The line stops with me.

It's not going to be physical of course or anything illegal but it's going to be humiliating and hurt. A lot. And honestly I wish you'd do the same. We could start a movement. Educating people. Maybe these people should be listed on some site, like sex offenders. Why not? Why sex offenders yes and emotional monsters not? Five years from now this could be legislated. People with diagnosed personality disorders should be listed. Think how much harm it would save.

I find this idea intriguing 

Just be warned man, every time I lost my sh@# and cussed her out about what she did it didn't do anything but made me feel worse. I don't know about your girl but mine was incapable of any sincere remorse. She also didn't learn jack every time her bad decisions bit her in the ass. She just shrugged it off and got on with her life.

[thisworld]

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

NCEA hi,

You have asked for our thoughts, here are mine:

I believe the logic above would put you in a very dependent position because it says that if she can't be humiliated, you can't get over the feeling. How independent would you be if you perceive your well-being (in this example, getting over that feeling) as something that can be achieved through something someone else feels or does? To me, that means handing over my personal power to someone else. In this case a mentally disordered person. Are you sure you want to do this to yourself? With each act of retribution at this stage, you will be creating a power she actually doesn't have. Before you grow emotionally indifferent to her (detach and heal), categorically this is the only battlefield possible due to the value you attribute you your actions ("humiliating HER results in getting rid of MY feeling."

Justice, forgiveness (I don't believe it's necessary for healing), retribution are different things and may be looked at completely differently from various perspectives. Relying on someone else's feelings to feel good is another matter.  

Practically, too, I believe this would even lessen your chances of feeling good. Because humiliated people that you humiliate back don't usually disappear from the face of the earth. If she, like you, resorts to trying to humiliate you back to soothe her feelings (which they sometimes do with smear campaigns etc) you may find yourself in a war where you are getting crazier and crazier. Simply because you are a sane person:)) If you keep your emotions at that dependent position, it would be easy to win over you emotionally (as BPDs are able to rewrite history and sincerely believing that as well) simply because it's YOU who is leaving your feelings (feeling better/humiliation etc) open to her. It wouldn't be that difficult for her to get a victory, mind you. Here you are a narrative that can be used with certain alterations after any attack from your side, can be posted on FB or whatever:

I left NCEA and he felt humiliated, he drew me back to take revenge, oh I must  have hurt him so much. I'm so sorry for him. (This even after she falls in love with you again and this time you dump her). He says I'm a bad person and am crazy and fake and cheap for falling in love just in 4 days but the truth is I never liked him that much anyway and my boyfriend knows why, too. He feels sad for him as well. I think he feels bad because he dropped everything to be with me but I didn't want him. But what can you do? He's now stalking me and I can't get rid of him. I've cut all contact with him and just wanted my friends to know, still don't be harsh on the guy, he's hurt you know.

Where would that leave you?

Expose her to her new boyfriend, this or some more lies about you. Speak about her, this. Or something that fits the narrative. This doesn't lessen their chance of finding new replacements because they have a warped sense of reality (but unfortunately they don't have an A ha moment because they are mentally ill) that they can adjust to the replacement's emotional needs.

You can seek justice, you can seek retribution, revenge. It's not my place to comment on them here, I don't preach values to people without knowing what happened to them, in what ways they were hurt or violated etc.

However, for all of those, I believe one has to come to a complete point of emotional independence as well. That's real power and that results in proper independent action. You'll have many alternatives, but you have to come to that point first.

This is what I think.

[enlighten me]

The best form of revenge you can get is to get on with your life and forget about them. Nothing hurts them more than being inconsequential. Love and hate are two ides of the same coin. To them hate means they still matter to you.

Why put the effort of an elaborate revenge into them when you can use it on yourself to do something more positive for you?

[NCEA]

Thank you everybody for your detailed replies.

I have no problem to admit that she has power over me, following months of psychological games and the rest. But I don't prescribe to the idea that we are or should be "whole people" in ourselves and get all our emotions worked out by ourselves simply because we're social creatures and we're not meant to work like that. It's all baloney. As I wrote somewhere else, we're meant to live in tribes or communes, as part of a larger group and part of our emotional needs SHOULD get met by others. I didn't come up with this now, it's something I read and agreed with in a book called "Attachment".

Also - it's not about HER feelings and how she would feel or what she'll do. It's about ME, taking action, doing what is right. So it's  not as if her emotions here are my reason for doing it. It's MY feelings of doing what is write. When it ended I was still in love with her and didn't really understand what was going on, so I didn't lash out at her like I should have. She used to say "I'm afraid of my monster" - I should have explained her that she IS the monster, not something or someone inside her. Now, it's too late for that.

To me it makes total sense that from an emotional POV that I will look to seek closure by leveling things out with my aggressor. `And it works for me on the moral level too as I've explained above.

Would you tell a rape victim that the rape is over and that  she needs to "work out on her emotions" and put it behind her? F no.

I DO NOT want to deal with this for 1-2 years. That's ridiculous. I think this is a shortcut. I'll let you know how I feel after it's done.

And no, she will not know it's me. She will have no idea what hit her and as you can imagine she has many enemies.

Thanks for your comments.

[CollateralDamage]

For what it is worth, I DID get even with mine.  Nothing physical or illegal, but worked it like a chess game.  It worked beautifully, and it appeared to be Karma working its magic rather than me.  I felt great and I still do   She deserved it with what she did to me, the head games and the double life.  She was embarrassed beyond belief and the overall impact was a reduction in her supply.  She barely had any friends anyway, but once my plan was invoked, she now has a lot of alone time to really think about her actions.  The funny thing is that she still contacts me like I would ever return. 

[NCEA]

Nice! Sounds amazing. What did you do? If you don't want to write it here, send me a PM. I just wrote one to you.

[thisworld]

Would you tell a rape victim that the rape is over and that  she needs to "work out on her emotions" and put it behind her? F no.

"Would you tell a rape victim that the rape is over and that  she needs to "work out on her emotions" and put it behind her? F no"

No, f*no. We tell rape survivors that rape is over, that they need to work out on their emotions and illnesses (PTSD and whatnot) and decide to seek justice legally or not seek it depending on which will be more empowering for them as an individual. As soon as they reach out, we help them collect evidence properly (that's the first step, evidence disappears very quickly). It's important not to force anyone into seeking justice just because we think activism is good (that would be using them for our purposes) and neither do we force them to heal and let go and start a happy life somewhere. Individuals differ, sometimes, activism is healing in itself. But that's not built on revenge. Basically, from very radical activism to government guidelines (I know the UK, not sure about the US) we tell rape victims more or less what we have told you.  

Rape survivors are taught to distinguish between two different things. 1. Their own feelings and approach which can be modulated for their own good. 2. Justice coming from outside. Many survivors enter rape support groups with a strong belief that if justice is restored at an outer level, their feelings will be soothed. They are angry. The underlying feelings are frustration, helplessness, worthlessness. They think number 2 will restore this. In extreme cases where there is enough proof so the rapist gets a good sentence, this expectation is more or less satisfied. This is very rare and PTSD continues nevertheless. In most cases, survivors return more or less empty-handed (UK goverment papers warn against this), with minimal punishment for the rapist from the law and the society (and this is rape and in front of law, it's even worse when we are talking about emotional abuse and the hypocritical society). The painful process of trying to make others recognized that they were wronged is full of lots of invalidation and that's why it's termed "second rape."  In the end, many of these survivors find that the punishment inflicted does not satisfy them (the law admits this) and they turn this into an obsession and burn, burn, burn. Their lives are now ruled by this. That's why it's important to separate number 1 and number 2. You have the power to heal on your own and you can choose to seek justice - revenge is another concept. Only the two are not connected actually even though you are feeling like that at the moment. We heal on our own (that's a proven reality). Seeking justice at the outer level is an individual choice, I like that choice. Nobody is telling any survivor to put this behind them. Only, regaining independent power is important. Communal life, interdependency etc, does not contradict or erase this. One in inward, the other is outward. We can discuss your analogy if you like, but that's completely up to you.  

What happens when the victim seeks "revenge"? Judith Herman of trauma studies has a good observation on this. If victims do not do the emotional work necessary IN THEMSELVES, they can't become survivors and remain victims. Sadly, this is usually a victim position that mirrors that of the aggressor, perpetrator and unintentionally, they become perpetrators themselves who are like cloned versions of their aggressors. That's the reason why we need to heal no matter what. Not to leave this behind, but not to become it. The problem with "revenge" is you cannot determine the outcome and if results in something other than you expected - even if in the long run- you are back to square 1.    

I'm sorry and I do seriously apologize if these comments are offensive to you at the moment. When you said thanks for your comments, I felt like "maybe, he doesn't want to carry on anymore" and I decided to write despite that doubt on my mind. To me, that was a little risk-taking on my side because I don't know you. But I, another BPD survivor, feel completely on your side emotionally and morally. I enjoy thinking through your threads, the points you come up with teach me a lot and show me where I'm standing in my recovery. Still, of course I'll not pester you if you don't want to continue.

Best,

Thisworld

[enlighten me]

So one question.

If an act of revenge goes so well that the other person is left completely devastated and ends up committing suicide would it have still been worth it? The fact that someones brother, sister, son, daughter, mother or father is gone would be justified?

I know its extreme but so are these people and their emotions. I realise both my uBPD exs where walking on a knife edge and I realise how little it would take to push them over the edge.

I too had revenge fantasies but now they aren't worth my effort. They are sad and scared little children that lie and cheat, use and abuse people to get through each day. I don't need to be like them. Sinking to revenge on someone who is not capable of having a normal life is in my opinion below me. Yes I can be the bigger man and its not because I am some sort of saint. Its because I have better things to do with my life.

Bitterness makes bitter people. How are you meant to move on when no one finds you attractive due to the resent and loathing you carry around. Would a future partner be proud of your actions or would they fear you would do it to them? Would you keep it locked away as a skeleton in your closet as it shames you or boast about and make people think your a vindictive person?

[NCEA]

These are good legitimate questions. She will not kill herself. I know her. If you knew her, you'd realize that this is just the right reaction to this. She's not an alcoholic or some weak person but a very powerful woman who uses her sex appeal to slay men all over, one after another. She's an evil powerful woman, not the weak type some of you write about. If I'll actually be able to pull it off, she would even respect it... .(if she knew that it was planned). She's living in a movie like drama and this is just taking her actions back to her court and in her face.

[Fr4nz]

A lot of people here can't get over with it for a long time.

I think a lot of it has to do with being humiliated by an ugly discard.

It's not a normal break up. Mine told me she was "crazy in love" with someone after knowing him 4 days, and canceled my plans to move to her city after I've already booked a flight and apartment.

I truly think that getting over the feeling of humiliation could only be obtained with one method - getting back at them and humiliating them back.

Was your discard humiliating too? Any thoughts on this?

Yes, happened the same to me as well... .she claimed to be in love with the replacement just after 4 days he knew him for the first time. It's just the way BPDs work, they feel love when in reality they feel need.

[thisworld]

For what it is worth, I DID get even with mine.  Nothing physical or illegal, but worked it like a chess game.  It worked beautifully, and it appeared to be Karma working its magic rather than me.  I felt great and I still do   She deserved it with what she did to me, the head games and the double life.  She was embarrassed beyond belief and the overall impact was a reduction in her supply.  She barely had any friends anyway, but once my plan was invoked, she now has a lot of alone time to really think about her actions.  The funny thing is that she still contacts me like I would ever return. 

CollateralDamage,

You didn't build your well-being on this, did you? Your posts show that you worked with a therapist, shared experiences here and you are still at the detachment forum, which shows a lot of individual effort. Yours worked like a chess game, but can you guarantee that for everyone because you say BPD people are unpredictable?

How long has it been? It's possible to diminish opportunities of supply for a narcissist, BPD etc but they relocate and restart simply because they have to. This is survival. If they live, despite the big new shame, this is what they have to do. (They do this faster than us of course.) If you don't work on yourself, do you think you will feel good forever when she relocates and restarts in a matter of months at best? When she again finds the love of her life and truly believes this and completely rewrites history? Probably with a more serious codependent offering her sympathy for her victim situation? Or a man who is OK with open relationships and doesn't get wounded by cheating because he doesn't have a definition of it? ( A NPD would be very probable) So, a couple of replacements dropped them. So what? That happens to them all the time actually. Only, we don't get told that.

[Fr4nz]

So one question.

If an act of revenge goes so well that the other person is left completely devastated and ends up committing suicide would it have still been worth it? The fact that someones brother, sister, son, daughter, mother or father is gone would be justified?

I know its extreme but so are these people and their emotions. I realise both my uBPD exs where walking on a knife edge and I realise how little it would take to push them over the edge.

I too had revenge fantasies but now they aren't worth my effort. They are sad and scared little children that lie and cheat, use and abuse people to get through each day. I don't need to be like them. Sinking to revenge on someone who is not capable of having a normal life is in my opinion below me. Yes I can be the bigger man and its not because I am some sort of saint. Its because I have better things to do with my life.

Bitterness makes bitter people. How are you meant to move on when no one finds you attractive due to the resent and loathing you carry around. Would a future partner be proud of your actions or would they fear you would do it to them? Would you keep it locked away as a skeleton in your closet as it shames you or boast about and make people think your a vindictive person?

I fully agree with enlighten me, revenge is pointless. They'll think to be victims anyway, and they'll try to move on with a "new" life as soon as possible (they behave like survivors in the end). Their way of thinking is disordered, you cannot expect they'll behave and react like us.

As others suggested, the best form of revenge is just to stay NC and move on with your life in the best, possible way.

If you really want to stick a needle in their eye, from time to time, perhaps you may want to consider to show publicly on facebook your accomplishments (that worked for me, and I'm sure about it ).

Their life is so chaotic and without stable, long term goals and relationships that seeing an old partner moving succesfully with its life can be quite a big revenge... .and perhaps this'll give them something to think about and learn from that!

It's a win-win thing

[bAlex]

I think ultimately it would be great if she lost her looks. If no one wants to date her it would make her think twice about what she had, how carelessly she gave it up, and the damage she caused. I think a lot of them have it way too easy! They seem to always have an endless supply of suitors, so replacing someone is nothing to them. Perhaps father time will take care of that...

[NCEA]

Age is men's best friend... .and women's worst enemy. They'll all lose their looks way before us. And sorry for the ladies who read it, but it's usually true.

[thisworld]

I have that fantasy about the looks as well. My ex is male and dysfunctional so looks is the only thing left, but it doesn't work as effectively.

If no one wants to date her it would make her think twice about what she had, how carelessly she gave it up, and the damage she caused.

This may not be so, though. Usually, they end up with no dates but by that time, they have trapped someone in a marriage (just anyone really) and they turn that person's life into another form of hell because they can't release tension through these affairs. Males growl and become very depressed and dismissive. I don't know what women do but I bet you don't want to be there. You still get trinagulated sometimes, with the cashier at the grocery store, the postman etc. It doesn't end. To what extent they have awareness is another issue. They don't think about losses the way we do. They probably come up with a victim scenario again (all those people I've wasted MY years for.) They don't like the punishment time gives but only for their purposes, not with empathy for the people they damaged.

[thisworld]

Age is men's best friend... .and women's worst enemy. They'll all lose their looks way before us. And sorry for the ladies who read it, but it's usually true.

Hopefully we won't be doing Cluster B anymore so these things will not matter. The guy gave me two new wrinkles, serious

[enlighten me]

These are good legitimate questions. She will not kill herself. I know her. If you knew her, you'd realize that this is just the right reaction to this. She's not an alcoholic or some weak person but a very powerful woman who uses her sex appeal to slay men all over, one after another. She's an evil powerful woman, not the weak type some of you write about. If I'll actually be able to pull it off, she would even respect it... .(if she knew that it was planned). She's living in a movie like drama and this is just taking her actions back to her court and in her face.

Ok so your plan works and she has something to play victim about. Her white knight comes to her rescue and whisks her off to a life of luxury. How would you feel if your actions gave her an even better life?

Im a great believer in karma. By making them a victim they can be rescued and have someone to blame. By leaving them to their own devices and letting them ruin their own lives then no one rescues them.

Its very easy to see the outcome we want but we have to look at it from all angles. We may facilitate them in getting everything thing they want just by trying to bring them down.

[steve195915]

I disagree.

All that getting revenge on them does is make them think that you are the bad guy and they where right about you.

You are not dealing with a logical mind. You are dealing with someone who acts on feelings. Its not normally premeditated its reaction and survival instinct. They may never realise the consequences of their actions so no lesson will be learnt.

When I was lied to and discarded like I was nothing, I too felt like I'd want her to suffer somehow.  But after I thought about it and being aware of her BPD, I knew she can never be truly happy, can never find true love and peace.  She has to live with her illness with the emotional dysfunctions, anger outbursts, crazy thoughts, contentious relationships and all the other traits so that's enough punishment.  

And you are right, they don't realize the consequences of their actions so just doing something to them as revenge will just lead to their justifying their actions and they can use that as proof and to entice to their next victim to feeling sorry for them and wanting to protect and take care of them.  Yes their actions are based on their delusional thoughts sometimes as a survival instinct and sometimes just as a childish emotional reaction.  

The hard part to come to grips with is whether their actions were premeditated as sometimes it sure seems that way.  If that's the case it sure seems like it's wrong to let them just walk away without paying any price for doing what they did and then they can do it to the next person that comes in their life.  I think all of us would like justice of some sort if their actions were truly premeditated.  I just don't think they are, they are mentally ill and have to live their life that way, and that is punishment enough.

[enlighten me]

I totally agree Steve.

Time is a great healer and a great eye opener. My ex wife left me in 2011. Dragged me through a messy divorce and took my sons away to live with the new love of her life. She is married to a man that she now hates. Has no friends or family where she lives and my sons now live with me. If I wanted to make her suffer I couldn't have done a better job than she has done herself.

Let time be your revenge and moving on. Living a happy and fulfilled life because you can rest assured that they will mess their lives up and will live every day with regret and the knowledge that deep down it was them and no one else at fault for their circumstances.

One day I will have my dream house in the country where my children and grandchildren can gather and have happy times. When this happens my ex wife will no doubt be looking on envious and realising she could have been a part of it. By then though she wont even register in my thoughts.