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Author Topic: Any experience filing a harassment order or OFP  (Read 3261 times)
HopelessBroken
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« on: September 05, 2018, 03:33:39 PM »

Do any of you have experience with filing a harassment order or OFP against someone with BPD?

Due to the escalating behavior of my exBPD I am considering it, yet afraid that it might make things worse.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 05:35:57 PM »

Questions:

Are you talking about  a Harassment Restraining Order? What does OFP stand for?

What is happening and how long?

Can you give us specifics?

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HopelessBroken
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 09:22:13 PM »

Harassment restraining order (HRO) order for protection (OFP).

My ex has been calling/emailing since the final discard (two months ago).  I decided to stop engaging completely as every email exchage or phone call resulted in more blame and verbal abuse towards me. So I went NC 8/23. Since that time he seems to be losing it that I’m not responding. The most recent email last night was absolutely crazy.  Wondering if anyone has experience with filing a HRO or the threat of filing with a pwBPD. Do they respect them or escalate more?

I’m more afraid of escalating him as he is a police officer and obviously has a firearm.

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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2018, 09:43:08 PM »

Hi HopelessBroken,

It sounds like your ex is having an "Extinction Burst" because you have set a boundary.

I often use the following simplified analogy regarding boundaries (I'm not trying to minimize what you are going through but simplify what you might be seeing with your ex)... .

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no... .kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom  stills says no... .kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again... .kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.  This doesn't mean the boundary won't be tested again during the next visit to the grocery store so consistency is important.

So basically, he's trying to boundary bust and is escalating the drama to get you to contact him.

More on Extinction Burst... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Are you feeling threatened by his behavior or are you feeling overwhelmed... .or maybe both   You know him best I'm just trying to gage what you are thinking in terms of threat level. 

It is scary that he is a policeman with a gun... .that is an added wrinkle for sure.

Panda39
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2018, 09:53:56 PM »

Can you confirm... .no children with him?  the divorce is final?  how long since final decree?  any remaining terms of the final decree not completed such as divesting shared or joint assets or debts?

You have an attorney, right?  Probably you would have to use an attorney to review and properly file for protection?  Does your lawyer think one last attempt to defuse this is possible?  I'm thinking a letter from your lawyer to his (overnight & certified) may get his lawyer to educate him to halt all contact henceforth.  I wonder if a copy of the letter sent to his HR or superiors may also get him to step back.  Or would that appear too much at this point?

Basically, the letter needs to state a few basics... .
  • The divorce was final on ___ date.
  • There is no further need or wish for any contact.
  • You want to Move On with your life just as you wish for him to Move On with his life.
  • You have already asked ex-spouse multiple times to stop attempting contact.
  • In the event if any issue or matter does arise then ALL further contact must be through your lawyer only, otherwise you will immediately seek remedy and protection from the court.
  • "Repeat and to emphasize, effective immediately, do not seek out, visit, follow, speak, call, email, text or harass my client in any way or legal remedy will be promptly taken."

Courts take very seriously a claim of "harassment", it is more that "this person is bugging me".  Remember, though, in all future contact with court, officials, etc that you need to state you're fearful of him or what he might potentially do.  Yes, it's a bit vague, that's okay, but the key point that that you are always consistent in that.  If you say sometimes you're fearful and sometimes not, then his lawyer could claim you're inconsistent and use that to try to get any pending restraining or protection order dismissed.

Disclaimer:  This is peer support.  I am not a lawyer and may not be fluent in court-speak.  Since he's an "officer of the court" and may have influential associates inclined to protect him as a default impulse, such a letter in no uncertain terms could be solid documentation that you initially tried to resolve it outside court but he ignored it.

What do you think?
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2018, 05:44:05 AM »

We were not married and we do not have any children together. So there are no attorneys involved. It would be me starting the legal process with the order.

I see what you are saying with the extinction burst. It’s escalated due to not getting attention. In the past this escalated behavior did get attention from me because it was so nuts. It’s both bothering me and getting a bit frightening to me.

I just don’t want to make the wrong move.  Every move I feel I’ve made with him has seemed to be wrong. (In his eyes that is... .). My mental health is suffering.
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HopelessBroken
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2018, 06:19:55 AM »

I just read the extinction burst info again.  It sounds as if I can ride through this storm, it will stop.
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2018, 07:31:19 AM »

I was in a relationship for 2.5 years with a man I deeply love. I was married [to another man at the time] and knew him for years as a friend. He pursued me big time. I had just ended an affair with a coworker and started talking to him. He was immediately intriguing to me. Extremely emotional and intense and into me.

I was still married and not in the place to fully disclose every detail. Our relationship continued and I struggled with filing for divorce. Eight months in he freaked out on me and left me. We argued and at this point he accused me of still sleeping with my husband, the individual I had the pervious affair with, his best friend and three random men who were involved with friends whom I told him stories about that I thought were funny.

One year in started the pattern of intense lashing out when angry. He would be  lashing out about how much he hated me. Each time this happened it was out of the blue and the same info. Waste of time, whore, go to hell, suck at relationships and communicating, toxic, liar, I don’t want you, you aren’t good enough for me. When he would do this I would crawl into a hole. Not respond. Become sad and scared. Then apologize to him and tell him how much I loved him.

I pulled these lines from a prior post to help us look at this matter. So setting aside your feelings/fears for a 15 minutes (and 15 minutes only).

Yours is a story of multiple break ups where you withdraw and then, later, acquiesce and apologize. Your partner was very fearful insecure of infidelity. When he met you, you were married and had been in a previous affair... .

So if we try to get into his head. If he has BPD, he has a huge inherent (not related to you) fear of vulnerability (and abandonment). The fact that you were married and had a prior affair most likely scared him to death and it got worse the more intense and involved you two got (the more involved, the more to lose). When you two broke up (and you have multiple times), the pattern was for him to get emotional flooded, you withdraw, he continues, you apologize to him and tell him how much I loved him.

In short, and from his perspective (only), you are a wonderful but could destroy him, and if he lashed out, you hear him, reassure him, and try to make him feel safer. Your current situation looks like the prior situations and he is doing what worked for the two of. This is similar to the other times.

The problem is not your actions, it was about the situation, and his actions are based on what you to "normally" do.

Make sense?

So now, getting in your head. You are tired of the cycles. You are out from under your marriage and have a neew life before you. Your partner has introduced the idea of "eating his gun". His emotions are extreme/impulsive. That is scary.

So how do you deal with this?

1. DON'T START DATING SOMEONE ELSE RIGHT AWAY. This is good for you, in general, but more importantly, this could ignite the current situation. Don't threaten to date. Don't do anything that could be construed as seeing someone. Also, don't insult his manhood. Remember the Uber driver shooting last week. No retainer order will protect you. Give this this time to reach baseline and know that the prior recycles have created a situation that will take time to get baseline (speaking to exteinction bursts).

2. Do everything you can to lower the emotional temperature right now. Tell him you need space to think. Maybe tell him you want to be left alone for 10 weeks. Maybe tell him you need total space from men and want to spend time with your girlfriends right now. This buys space for extinction and it takes away the fear of another man without specifically saying it. I use the word maybe because these are examples of what you can do... .I don't know enough specifics to suggest actions.

3. If he violates this, wait 24 hours before responding (see how we are cooling this, but not agitating) and ask him to please respect your need to be alone. If he is mean or caustic, tell he you will only reply to polite notes (say this once), and say nothing else until you get politeness (cooling, not agitating).

4. If you are making progress with this - he is calming and backing off, good.  A few more reminders are OK as long as they are days apart. If he ignores your request, tell him very nicely that you don't want to get a RO, but you will if he doesn't respect your space.

5. Get the RO.

Overall, this is all aimed and undoing the prior learned behavior that extended pressure works.

Skip
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« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2018, 11:49:40 AM »

Wow - Skip has given you some seriously solid advice. 

I can't offer much more than, if this relationship is really over (is it?) then why continue to let him get to you in this way?  In this day and age, we can block phone numbers, set spam filters to filter out someone's email - short of him following you or turning up at your front door, a lot of the e-communication these days has mitigating factors.

If you have concluded that you are done with this relationship and desire no contact, my advice would be to implement some of those features so that you just don't get it anymore.  If you truly fear his actions or potential actions towards you, then I would work with what Skip's provided. Otherwise, even if you do love him but want NC, start blocking all of that stuff.

Best,
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2018, 08:37:15 PM »

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I am so truly thankful for this board.

You are very right. It’s been a cycle that’s been both hurtful and exhausting and I have done the same thing each time. This final discard was different than before. He was very clear he was done and there was no entertaining any apologies from me. I tried multiple times via phone. Each met with more abuse and more cheating/lying accusations (all false). Now the most recent email he sent stated due to my lack of responding to him he doesn’t feel bad about the 13 people he slept with during our 2.5 years, some people I personally know, and guilting me reguarding not visiting my deceased fathers grave site (an vulnerable thing I shared with him). The contact is getting more and more hurtful.

Are you thinking I should break my no contact to tell him I need space? I was thinking no contact was the only thing that was going to stop this? I also thought I had some kind of power by not responding?

Secondly, I’m not even thinking of dating anyone, nor could I due to the pain and emotional unhealthy spot I’m in. But I’m confused by this. He doesn’t want me and says no one else will want me... .but he would be upset if they did? I don’t get it. He moved on to someone else the week he left me. He doesn’t want me.

Lastly, with the contact. He’s been coming to my house randomly and leaving things. I never know when to expect him. Sometimes at night and sometimes during the day. He talks into my video doorbell things like “ I f*cking hate you with a passion.”  I’ve blocked him on my phone and his personal email. I can’t block his work email to my work email as we are on the same state system. I’ve gone to IT to request it.  I also was told by them that they can’t block a number calling into a government center, where I work. So I’m stuck with those two means of communication continuing to happen... .
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2018, 10:53:20 PM »

My ex too in our final days together disparaged me in every way she could dredge up... .I wear the pants here, everyone hates you, you are weak and impotent, you have cancer in your brain and in your {sex organ}, etc.  None of it was true of course, but she tried to hurt me as much as she could with whatever verbal barbs she knew.

Can you imagine for yourself an invisible shield or umbrella that all his verbal nastiness just bounces right off and back onto him?

Despite him making clear it is permanently over between you two, I wonder if, when he is ready such as when he decides he has punished you enough (or his current love interest has dumped him), he then expects you to come back on your knees begging to be accepted back?

Yes, much of what he does doesn't make "common sense".  He has mental health issues and his thinking is skewed.  So of course you can't make sense of it.  That is doesn't make normal sense is essentially one of the definitions of mental illness.  Obviously he's together enough to be employed, it's not like it is so bad he is drooling and needs to be committed.  BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships, the closer it is the worse it is.

If you do have to get a restraining order, should a copy be delivered to his HR if he keeps calling from his workplace?
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 06:54:02 AM »

I was thinking no contact was the only thing that was going to stop this? I also thought I had some kind of power by not responding?

Are you wanting "power" (escalation) or "safety"?  There are lots of ways to get more power/escalation.

Most domestic homicide, and domestic suicide occurs during or in the weeks right after a breakup.

De-escalate.


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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 07:18:08 AM »

You could not be more correct. I do not want to make this worse.

So is me responding in attempts to de-escalate the slot machine effect? Since I’ve been NC for about a month now.

Or is it reasonably safe to believe this last hurtful email is the end of it?
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 07:44:38 AM »

What/when were the last 3 communications.

He sounds angry/resentful - what specifically is he resentful about?
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 11:01:17 AM »

Hopeless,

First and foremost, I just want to make sure that you are safe.  Look - Skip surely is a pro at this type of thing.  I am mostly more concerned about your own safety, and your own mental health and well being so please take what I say here simply as my own "talking through" this contact situation.

To me, it sounds like you have some legitimate harassment issues going on.  I am not a lawyer or specialist in this sort of thing, but if he is coming to your home unsolicited and unwelcomed that's a grievance you can lodge with the authorities. If he is also sending you inappropriate emails on a work computer (if its a state government machine and he is an employee) then I am sure he is violating some term of a computer usage agreement he would have had to have signed, and the fact that you have already gone to IT to seek a filter of some type is evidence on your part to try and limit the harassment (if you use Outlook though you could create a rule that all of the emails you get from his address go to the trash).  AND if he is calling you at the office, that also is a grievable offense.  You could seriously use these things as harassment in a claim (in my opinion) if that is a spot that you ultimately get forced into.

If you do not choose to de-escalate, or his belligerent emails or calls continue, a thought/recommendation could be to approach your HR department to explain you are being harassed at work; they may be able to contact the department or agency that he works for and take appropriate action given he is using their official email network and phones.

In regards to the other comments he and you have made - Oh, HopelesslyBroken I am so sorry to hear this.  Look, there really is little understanding of why he would tell you that he doesn't want you, no one wants you, but don't you dare date anybody if you know what's good for you (my paraphrasing) - I mean, look at how I typed that out, its crazy, right?  As much as you may want to try and  rationalize it, or understand it - there is little to understand. These are his ways of lashing out to try and inflict pain, deflecting the pain that he himself is feeling (mostly pain he causes himself).  I do hope you don't feel like you still need to apologize, as you have done nothing wrong.  I know it is hard to see that from the spot that you are in, because I was there once myself.

Do look after yourself, and wishing you the very best,
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2018, 11:19:07 AM »

He’s been coming to my house randomly and leaving things. I never know when to expect him. Sometimes at night and sometimes during the day.

Is this new?
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2018, 01:01:28 PM »

Secondly, I’m not even thinking of dating anyone, nor could I due to the pain and emotional unhealthy spot I’m in. But I’m confused by this. He doesn’t want me and says no one else will want me... .but he would be upset if they did? I don’t get it. He moved on to someone else the week he left me. He doesn’t want me.

If he is engaging you emotionally, there is still connection here. People say all kinds of mean things they don't mean when they are upset. If he was done and over, he wouldn't be contacting you at all.

I was actually doing better for one week before seeing him Friday. No crying or thoughts of not being on this planet anymore for a week. Then I saw him with her and I’m right back where I started.

There is still a lot of emotion on your side, too. 

I am mostly more concerned about your own safety, and your own mental health and well being so please take what I say here simply as my own "talking through" this contact situation.

To me, it sounds like you have some legitimate harassment issues going on.

XSurvivorX, it's good to raise these issues.

From the little information we have, we know three things.

1. Her ex is a police officer and has suggested in the past that he would use his service weapon on himself as a response to relationship stress. There is no reported physical violence in the relationship.

2. This couple has a history of breaking up, extended periods of fighting, and then getting back together. In this recent breakup, they have been fighting/escalating for 10 weeks - something they have done before and reunited.

3. Two weeks ago, the OP ceased contact and blocked some access. The boyfriend is responding to this as a power / escalation.

What is the greatest risk? The possibility of domestic homicide. The harassment is a second level concern.

What is the most effective tool? This seems to be the question in this thread.

Technically, it is easy to get a temporary retraining order. If the temporary order is violated, the OP can call the police if her ex/bf violates the order. The police would respond the boyfriend could end up before a judge (police tend to be lenient with their own). The sentence could range from a warning to 93 days in jail, a fine of $500, the later only likely to happen after multiple violations or a serious incident.

Do any of you have experience with filing a harassment order or OFP against someone with BPD?

Due to the escalating behavior of my exBPD I am considering it, yet afraid that it might make things worse.

The OP knows that a retraining order is likely to inflame the matter more than it is now.

If you read the reaction to members here that have had RO's slapped on them, the RO are often seem as escalations (especially when there is no prior physical violence), and the reactions are strong.

One study noted a quadrupling (400% increase) of psychological abuse during the period of a temporary protection order.
Civil protection orders and risk of subsequent police-reported violence.
JAMA. 2002 Aug 7;288(5):589-94.
Holt VL1, Kernic MA, Lumley T, Wolf ME, Rivara FP.

In the same study they noted that permanent, but not temporary, protection orders are associated with a significant decrease in risk of police-reported violence against women by their male intimate partners.

The answer is not black and white.

HopelessBroken, I PMed the name, address, and phone or DV agencies near you to get additional opinions. It would be great to hear what you are advised.
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2018, 06:12:52 PM »

All of you are so wonderful. Thank you so much for all the time and effort you are putting into helping me.

Just to respond to a few things from above posts. We had a cycle of him freaking out and breaking up with me and me apologizing and getting more limitations put on me of what I would do better. The break up time was never longer than one week. This break up time is 8 weeks and I’ve been NC for four weeks.

The coming to the house randomly started the week of the breakup and continued for four weeks.

Things he’s angry about or resentful about. It’s more, what is he NOT resentful about. Some things include:
1. My divorce wasn’t fast enough
2. We were a secret during my divorce
3.  I’m not emotional enough and don’t communicate well enough
4. I didn’t have sex with him enough and was not affectionate enough
5. I wasted his time
6. I have lied to him about my pervious sexual history (not true)
7. I have had sex with numerous people during our relationship (not true)
8. I didn’t show enough excitement about moving in together
9. I never invited him to sleep over at my house
10. I’m too friendly and have too many friends
11. I’m too flirty with the opposite sex
12. I never made him a priority


I could keep going. Focus of fights would always turn into him accusing me of refusing to be honest about my past sexual history and who I’ve been sleeping with during our relationship. He wouldn’t accept the truth of no one.

I did not get any calls or emails yesterday or today. I’m hoping this is a good sign. As of today I’m holding off on the restraining order as to not make him more angry.

And yes, you are so correct. I love this man who turned on me out of the blue and who has shown to be unstable, abusive, lying and cheating. It’s been heartbreaking and scary all at the same time.
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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2018, 07:17:06 AM »

HopelessBroken

You work in law enforcement yourself - I picked up so much in the tone of your posts of confidence at how you were dealing with this - but there was also a part of complacency or flippantness to it.

were all different; id be terrified in contrast, I admire your strong mind and resilence in what youve outlined the guy you were with and his history. my ex caused me a lot of trouble, but the imagery I got to my mind of what sort of guy you were with, it reminded of the film "unlawful entry".

My only advice is what I did in my situation, right after going NC i shelved a lot of the emotion and took practical steps as best I could.

remember that the emotional side can be dealt with once youve got yourself in a safe place otherwise. Its also not the time to put unneccesary fears in, i had to go through a lot of stuff that made me stressed, creepy and bizarre stuff plus the stalking. In the end, she faded away without much drama.

im hoping this just fizzles out for you too but there is a lot that can be done to make that happen smoother.
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« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2018, 10:07:29 AM »

Cromwell, it’s interesting you mention that my messages appear confident. I was before this relationship began. I am now completely broken down. When people reference being a shell of a human being, that’s how I feel. His behavior evokes fear in me, and I deal with scary people each day.

Skip, something I forgot to reply to was his most recent three emails:

1. “WOW.” This came in the middle of the night after he paraded his new girlfriend in front of me and I walked away several times.

2. “F U.”  This came early the next morning.

3.  An article from experts saying how it’s good to show emotions in a romantic relationships.

4. A long message stating due to me not showing emotion or responding to me it validates his decision to “dump my a*s.” In addition it also doesn’t make him feel bad for having sex with “13 others when during our 2.5 years, some you know some you know of and some you don’t.” He then indicated he will be continuing to visit my deceased fathers grave as I don’t have the strength or emotions to do it and at least he will make sure he’s not alone. (Not visiting my fathers grave for years was something I opened up to him about. He died of cancer when I was a child and I’ve been working on feelings about that in therapy). Then he said “ may god forgive you for what you have done.”

It’s been three days and I haven’t gotten anything else. Maybe I’m over reacting?
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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2018, 12:30:46 PM »

Thats really nasty of him Hopeless, I confided to my ex my weakpoints, and when it came to use them she went right for them, its like she was an expert at knowing what behaviour would hurt the most and when in that frame of mind, she just went for it.
 
If you look at the tone in his messages, they are progressively more provocative. There does seem to be some manipulation here, it gets progressively more hurtful in intent the more he realises you dont respond. The first one, just cryptic, the second just a FU which im sure you just equate as childish and 'noise', then with no response to either it ramps up.

When I was in your situation I cut off all sources of contact completely, she couldnt facebook, phone, text nothing. I even moved house not long after. So I have no idea how she would have behaved, but she did come to my new house twice, once on her birthday and funnily enough used the same phraseology as your now ex - "FO". I found it a bit strange to be told that when I was the one who had discarded her and had cut off all contact, but there you go. (the official narrative in her mind is not the same - for instance, my not wanting to communicate would be seen by others for what it is, in hers it cant be handled so it gets changed into "hes just in a mood and wants to play hard to get, I just have to try harder"). Probably not a good thing that I Went back so many times in the past after splitting with her, it encourages that sort of mindset.

Even a restraining order is making a relationship and connection of sorts, they cant handle you completely vanishing out of their domain, its the worst thing. I guess for something like him who is well versed in the law, he would see it as also a sign that you are scared and he knows enough tricks and loopholes to still be an ar"sehole towards you.

Not over-reacting, its just in some cases and this is one of them, cant always do the run of the mill proper thing you would that would work on a sound minded person.
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2018, 12:52:49 PM »

The feedback I received about a TRO was the same as what Gavin de Becker describes in a chapter on restraining orders in his book Gift of Fear, which is (paraphrasing) to only do it if you believe the person will honor it and leave you alone.

Do you believe your ex will honor the TRO.

And do you believe you will honor it by reporting it when he violates it.

Those two questions have to be asked and answered for a TRO.
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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2018, 01:04:57 PM »

This is to address the long term boundaries you set, once the current conflict is resolved.  With a normal ended relationship it can be possible to have limited contact without triggering disaster.  Not that we seek it out, often one or both are in new relationships, the concept is that both have Moved On in their lives.

But when BPD or other acting-out behaviors are an issue, continued contact such as "we can be friends" is virtually impossible.  Best to for it to End and don't look back.

Yes, you love him, that's your heart.  But your head says, No way!  Right now your head is processing well ahead of your heart.  So... .listen to your head, your heart will catch up in time.

Recovery is a process, not an event.  Give yourself time to recover from this experience.  Likely your work provides access to counseling, take advantage of that resource.

We typically want Closure from the other.  Well, you clearly won't get it from the exBF, so the better solution is to Gift Yourself the needed Closure.
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« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2018, 02:04:49 PM »

Skip, something I forgot to reply to was his most recent three emails

It sounds like there is a lot if unfinished business here. He wants you to respond to him and is pushing buttons.
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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2018, 09:32:59 AM »

Yup - like Skip & Cromwell hint towards, it sounds like he is still cycling through the series of things to address to attempt to illicit a response.  It's similar sounding to some of the kinds of things my ex said in her emails when we first separated. 

It seems like you are doing all the right things, Hopeless.  I too felt like a shell of a human being, but if we want to use that analogy it was the pwBPC who repeatedly shelled me (often times, as others have said, with those innermost deepest things we share with them).  When she was gone and both time and space had increased, I found that I was able to begin healing and "regrow" that shell so I could be a complete nut again 

Sending you my best wishings,
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« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 10:33:03 PM »

So tonight I received an email titled “hey!”

I opened it up and it was a naked picture of him, and it stated “miss me?”

I cannot understand this behavior AT ALL.
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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2018, 06:40:52 AM »

Wow, really appropriate stuff, especially from some one in law enforcement. 

It's just attention seeking behavior ignore it.

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« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2018, 07:13:20 AM »

Yowza - I gotta give the guy credit - he is REALLY pulling out all the stops isn't he? 

He's getting really desperate and cycling through all the possible ways to get your attention.

Like Cromwell said, first he was cryptic, then rude, then petulant, then outright abusive, now... .dick pics. Jesus. It's actually a bit lacking in sophistication, isn't it? Like the others have said, I think you should ABSOLUTELY continue to ignore it. Zero response. I think like Cromwell's ex, he will fizzle out without incident if you just do absolutely nothing.

I understand loving someone who is disordered, and having it be painful to have to cut them off. But right now, in the state he's in, communicating with him won't help you OR him. I'm in that dilemma with my ex too. He is still very dysregulated, and I know there is little I can do that would help at all - at least not right now.

Your ex is in quite an agitated state, and therefore there will be no possibility of a reasonable or helpful discussion taking place. Based on my own experiences with my ex, any attempts to converse when one person is highly dysregulated and one is sound just make matters worse. It's a simple as this: we nons are interested in solving negative problems, conflict resolution, and peaceful interactions. People with PD's often want to stir the pot, provoke drama, and create problems, not fix them. My ex was, and is, notorious for this. When he is in that mode, there is no reaching him.

At least while your ex is behaving "off the rails" like this, it is best to ignore him. Any contact will just provoke more drama and more openings for him to up his game.

 
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« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2018, 11:16:52 AM »

Just in case this ramps worse, save any texts or emails just in case you need the documentation later.  For many the first impulse would be to delete such things.  All I'm saying is that you may need to reference as much documentation as possible later to support your story, if it comes to that.
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« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2018, 06:34:35 PM »

Unfortunately I deleted all our texts when I deleted and blocked him on my phone. I’ve saved all the emails and the video clips on my Ring doorbell.

I’m really not doing well after getting that picture last night.
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2018, 07:40:47 AM »

You are afraid because he has a firearm?
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2018, 12:20:27 PM »

That’s a really good question. When he was coming to my home over and over I did feel a great deal of anxiety and was worried. His behavior is unpredictable and rageful and it’s frightening that someone who cannot control themselves has multiple guns. I talked to my therapist about this and she said people who have this disorder are much more likely to harm themselves than others and that he’s too narcissistic to harm himself (despite threatening suicide to me when I tried to leave at one point).  So I’ve calmed myself down that he’s not going to physically harm me.

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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2018, 12:29:53 PM »

Hello HopelessBroken... .I am very sorry this is happening to you. From your posts I can detect the stress, anxiety and fear you must be feeling. Maybe it's time to get an RO and stick to your guns (no pun intended) to try to stay away as far as possible. Wishing you tons of strength and courage... .
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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2018, 02:38:26 PM »

Oh, poor Hopeless; Concur - I am sad to hear about the recent email and its effect on you.

Maybe since you two have had similar breakups in the past that recycled, despite the NC and time involved in this breakup, he still cannot comprehend why or how this is different? Not like before, or why you haven't yet apologized to him and come back.  I imagine that could be why he just keeps on, now apparently trying to elicit some response with something that he thinks you may have really enjoyed?

I hope you stay NC, and I hope you are able to get past this.  I do worry about your safety, but I am just a worrier   You know the situation better than I, so I trust your judgement.  These things certainly aren't easy.

Sending you positive thoughts -
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« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2018, 06:08:08 PM »

This one is different than in the past. He discarded me and wouldn’t budge an inch with my apologies. I tried to get together to meet and he accepted then refused. Usually he would push back but accept getting together to talk and ultimately back together. This time was a big no.

Ironically earlier on when I blocked him on my phone after he raged and hung up on me, he wrote an email saying he hoped to get together and sort through “our” f*cked up pasts with the hopes of being together and that he would always love me. After I accepted, he wrote three days later that he didn’t want to do that, I had ruined our chances of a life together and he had moved on. Stating “I f*cking hate you.”

So, it’s like he is done but won’t stop contacting me. Which is so confusing. I’m taking it as a punishment for how horrible he feels I’ve been? I just don’t get it. I’m just starting to realize (as screwed up as this sounds) just how verbally abused I’ve been.

Do you really think he thinks I’m coming back?  He’s emailed that he’s had 13 affairs on me? Who would ever go back to that?

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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2018, 06:30:37 PM »

... .and I forgot to add. This time was very different in the aspect that we made the decision to go all in. I met and spent time with his kids. Met and spent time with our families and friends. Made a plan to move in together and decided to have a child. None of these steps had occurred before. As far as I saw it, we were invested. Then the discard. Lots more thrown away. Maybe that stuff was only different for me and not in his rationale. The discard before only me.
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2018, 07:44:56 PM »

Hi HopelessBroken

If you add whatever (and I think there is a PD of some sort) on top of him having a stressful job, alcohol issues?
Its going to be hard to pinpoint or make any sense of a lot of the behaviour. You werent aware of the (alleged) 13 affairs, what else does he keep hidden about himself or what he is up to? When I got messages from my ex, they were mostly disinhibited with alcohol I believe now, basically what im saying is, making sense of it can be problematic and never straightforward, least of all when dealing with BPD which is rooted at times in psychosis. (there is nothing to make sense of, it is just by its nature, bizarre)

with regards to firearms, dont let this wreck your mind he just sounds a pest rather than obsessed. I get from the tone of the posts that he is just annoyed that you havent been visibly hurt or distressed, or chased after him, filled up his ego, sidestepped the provocation each time. That you dont miss "mr wonderful" or gods greatest gift. Remember his post "miss this?". Let him keep messaging, more clues for your therapist to work on, narcissistic traits, not very nice sign, and hopefully beyond the initial disappointment it gives you more evidence that you were right not to want to ever go back.

hope your doing otherwise in the midst of it all.
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2018, 10:30:35 PM »

I'm going to post about another aspect of your situation.  Your history is a cycle of breakups and makeups.  With that history, court and those around the court who could potentially help you End the relationship might worry, "Is this yet another breakup-makeup?"  You see, if they think you're eventually going to get back together with him, they may see you as a revolving door litigant, repeatedly coming back to court for help but then going right back to the dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.  In that scenario, their help will be minimal, why should they waste time and effort aiding someone who will ultimately ignore their advice and go right back?

Do you see my point?  Are you 100% sure the relationship is ended?  Are you positive there is nothing he could do that would woo you back into his web yet again?  Have you finally learned your lesson?  Are you truly ready to break this history of up and down cycles?

As I wrote, I ask this because the professionals will fight harder for you if they know you will absolutely not get back together with him, ever.
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« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2018, 06:27:50 PM »

The funny thing is, other than my therapist and my cousin , I let no one in about all the breakups. I was embarrassed I think, looking back, of how crazy it seemed that he kept breaking up with me and I kept making up with him.  There is no chance of us getting back together ever. He sees me as the issue therefore will never make changes. I will not tolerate this treatment any longer. He wants nothing to do with me and the email detailing cheating with 13 people sealed it for me. The history is broken. It’s been two months since he left. In the past we never went more than one week.

It will be a week tomorrow that I’ve heard from him. I’m thinking and hoping he’s done with the contact.
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2018, 09:23:45 PM »

Good evening!

Feeling really good tonight and just wanted to update that in two days it will be two weeks with no phone calls or emails. This really feels good. I’m so less anxious.

And, Wednesday I start going to a support group I found for women who have been in abusive relationships. Things are looking up! 
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2018, 04:38:09 AM »

Good evening!

Feeling really good tonight and just wanted to update that in two days it will be two weeks with no phone calls or emails. This really feels good. I’m so less anxious.

And, Wednesday I start going to a support group I found for women who have been in abusive relationships. Things are looking up! 

This is great news, HB! I'm glad to hear you are feeling better and have gotten a break from the madness. Perhaps your refusal to engage did the trick.   He may pop up and try again, but keep playing it cool. You've got this! 
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2018, 09:12:02 PM »

I spoke too soon. He called my work cell phone, that I never use and didn’t think he had the number to, this morning at 12am. It was on my desk at work where I always leave it.  This is so weird.


But I did attend the support group tonight for the first time and it was great!
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 08:45:09 AM »

I spoke too soon. He called my work cell phone, that I never use and didn’t think he had the number to, this morning at 12am. It was on my desk at work where I always leave it.  This is so weird.


But I did attend the support group tonight for the first time and it was great!

Oh... .yikes. Yeah, that is really strange. 
But great news about the therapy group! If you don't mind sharing, what kind of topics came up in the meeting? I'm curious as I have never been to one of those types of group meetings.
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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 06:20:16 PM »

Just in case you need it later... .log or journal that call and the details... .date, time, left a VM or not, etc.  Might even take a picture of the screen display.  Probably you'll never need it, but if you do end up needing it, then you'll have it.  You can always delete the stuff later once you're confident this problem is far in the past and this chapter in your life is firmly closed.
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 10:42:30 PM »

So, the group is for women who have experienced emotional, physical or sexual violence. It takes place at a domestic violence shelter.  The topic this week was self esteem and compassion towards ourselves. It’s amazing how we treat ourselves vs how we treat others when it comes to compassion.  One woman came up to me after group and asked me if we were possibly dating the same man as my story sounded so much like hers. I found the group very helpful.

Although when I got home I felt odd. It’s as if hearing others stories that sounded just like mine made this whole terrible experience seem more real. I know that probably sounds weird.

So I hammered a plate of nachos.

Somehow nachos can make everything better.

And yes, I’m doing exactly that. I made a file folder as you guys suggested and named it “loser.”  I put all the correspondence in it just incase.
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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2018, 05:11:06 AM »

So, the group is for women who have experienced emotional, physical or sexual violence. It takes place at a domestic violence shelter.  The topic this week was self esteem and compassion towards ourselves. It’s amazing how we treat ourselves vs how we treat others when it comes to compassion.  One woman came up to me after group and asked me if we were possibly dating the same man as my story sounded so much like hers. I found the group very helpful.

This sounds like a great resource and a terrific way to get some support from others that truly understand this complex situation first hand. Someone who has never lived through such events... .perhaps conceptually, they can understand, but not on the deep levels that we can. Like you were, when you spoke with that lady in your group, I am often stunned by how many others' experiences with BPD partners are so similar to my own - right down to some of the bizarre and twisted things they say.


Although when I got home I felt odd. It’s as if hearing others stories that sounded just like mine made this whole terrible experience seem more real. I know that probably sounds weird.

So I hammered a plate of nachos.

Somehow nachos can make everything better.

And yes, I’m doing exactly that. I made a file folder as you guys suggested and named it “loser.”  I put all the correspondence in it just incase.

It sounds perfectly reasonable. I thought the same when I started posting here. Part of me was relieved to learn I hadn't imagined what I was experiencing. Aaaaaand... .part of me was horrified when I realized how real and valid it actually was.

I support the nacho cure. Nachos make so many things better. I may take a page out of your playbook and whip up a batch of super nachos, and make a "loser" file of my own. Ok... .maybe not "loser"... ."nuisance" might be a better term for my situation. 
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2018, 11:24:21 PM »

Today I read the book “ I Hate You, Don’t Leave Me.”  I wish I would have read this years ago. Or known of his diagnosis years ago. 

So tonight after finishing the book I checked my email and have yet another message. This one completely different than all the others I’ve received. It’s number eight that I have gotten since going no contact.

“Please help me! The pain is unbearable! Please just tell me you hate me or something so that I can let you go.”

WHAT? Does he not remember breaking up with me, verbally abusing me, disclosing 13 affairs, continuously telling me he doesn’t love me,  flaunting his new girlfriend in front of me... .

It’s taking everything in me to stay no contact. What IS this? Do they truly not remember what they said or their actions?
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2018, 02:58:13 AM »

Oh, HB. I can understand how upsetting this must be for you - and how desperate he is getting. I do believe he IS in horrible pain, and those previous antagonistic emails were his way of trying to get you to do what he is now begging you to do. In a sense he wants you to snap his neck in some sort of final "Coup de Grace" because in the state he's in now, he's grasping for some sort of relief and wants you to deliver the death blow.

But you can't. It's not possible and nothing you do or say will fix this, or what goes on in his troubled head. The problem and the disorder lie within him, and nobody will be able to make him well, or even better. Except him - in cooperation with a really good therapist.

My ex did the same. His contacts to me were not as threatening or strange as yours, but recently he sent me a very emotional email demanding to know why I hurt him so bad and to lay a guilt trip on me. Same as you, I was loving, loyal, and kind to him. People with BPD cannot see or recognize that. They don't trust it, and the closer you are to them, the more they blame you for the hell that exists in their own minds. And nothing you say or do can fix it. There is also an element with pwBPD where they want others to feel as low and as bad as they do. Have you ever heard that analogy about how crabs can't escape from a bucket that has the lid off, because as soon as they start to move toward the top, the others pull them back down? That's what pwBPD do too. If they see you escaping - they want to pull you back down into hell with them. You don't want to be there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

I am still going to suggest that you don't respond. It's the hardest now, because he is not being mean or antagonistic. He's being sad and vulnerable, and any sane person would WANT to help. But it won't. It will only start the cycle of misery over again, because you can't ever give him permanent relief. I couldn't with my ex either. I still feel bad about that, but I also know - the impossible is just that. The best thing we can do for ourselves is get out of the bucket, and stay out. 

Keep posting here when you feel like you might give in and get back into the fray again. Or when it gets to hard/sad/frustrating to deal with his attempts to bait you. So many of us have been there. From my own personal experiences, the one thing I did that went the furthest to help my emotional recovery was to stop responding to his emotional manipulations. Once I took back that control, I felt SO much better. Hang in there... .there's a lot of support here, and people who fully understand what you are going through right now.
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« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2018, 11:04:55 AM »

“Please help me! The pain is unbearable! Please just tell me you hate me or something so that I can let you go.”

This is FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or Emotional Blackmail in an effort to boundary bust... .in an effort to get you to break your "no contact" boundary.

More on FOG... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Hang in there,
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« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2018, 12:27:13 PM »

BD and P you are both so right. I also wonder if there is something else going on with him that triggered this. His ex wife (whom he divorced) is getting married this Saturday. Ironically, we were attending a wedding this Saturday as well. I had a plan to make it a great weekend for him as to support how tough it might feel for him.  Now I’m going to the wedding alone. Neat.

I found myself thinking, if he was in pain over the breakup a normal person would write something similar to “ I miss you. I made a mistake. Can we talk?”

But then it pops into my head... .he isn’t normal. This isn’t normal.
This is a big step for me as I’ve been blaming myself relentlessly for everything that happened and everything I could have done differently.

I read the article on FOG. I think it’s spot on. There is ZERO thought or empathy to the hell his behavior has put me through. Thinking he loved me as I loved him meanwhile he was sleeping with anyone he could find and Abusing me regularly. But he’s in pain now so I need to help him?

And I won’t respond, no matter how much I want to tell him I would unplug his life support to charge my cell phone.

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« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2018, 04:12:27 PM »

This is negative engagement.  While he may truly be in distress emotionally, you can't help him.  Responding would just renew communication, encourage further contact.  It's a conundrum, there is no good answer.

I have a coffee mug with a Gary Larson comic on it, It has some red guy with a pitchfork , horns and a tail prodding a guy to open a door.  Each has a sign, one reads, "Damned if you do" and the other "Damned if you don't".  Sigh.  That's the extremes we face.  Don't let it get to you.
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« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2018, 05:34:30 PM »

I absolutely agree and I will not respond. Nor do I think he truly is upset about me. He never cared about me.

Yesterday I found out about yet another woman he was sleeping with during our relationship. So I now know three of the 10. How do I get over the intense feelings connected to this?

It infuriates me that I’m left living in a house we were moving into together, attending therapy weekly, on medication, reading books nightly on self esteem and abusive relationships and attending a domestic abuse support group weekly... .all while he’s out dating and having the time of his life with all these women.
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« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2018, 06:14:10 PM »

Dr Joe Carver has a site where one of his handouts (articles) is entitled, "Identifying Losers, Controllers and Abusers in Relationships".  Look at your situation from another perspective... .Don't you agree he's the real Loser?

You might want to read our post & PDF download on clinical psychologist Joe Carver and also his assortment of articles on his own website.  In particular read his article "Personality Disorders: The Controllers, Abusers, Manipulators and Users in Relationships".
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« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2018, 02:38:19 AM »



It infuriates me that I’m left living in a house we were moving into together, attending therapy weekly, on medication, reading books nightly on self esteem and abusive relationships and attending a domestic abuse support group weekly... .all while he’s out dating and having the time of his life with all these women.

its interesting about how we can perceive ourselves and how others can.

For instance, since you have came to this board - i have looked up to you; I see a very strong person behind all the steps you have taken.

Then today, I read "infuriated".

HopelessBroken, it took me about half a year, post relationship after 2.5 years of holding on to it. to just BEGIN to start getting angry.

but we are different; I didnt want to go to therapy, take meds, read self help books, I tried to sabotage my reaching out on this board. It worked, I got banned.

Why should I feel like a victim, why should I go through all this, I had done nothing to deserve it. Then that bitch is out there "having the time of her life" after causing so much pain - confusion.

Her type should have been in an institution, for the damage she causes, whats wrong with this world?

those were my thoughts - they stagnated what should have been getting the help that I needed. It was still about her.

He could sleep with a new woman each night, HB, he will never have true happiness because he hasnt got the guts to do what you are doing now. Youve reached out for help, searching for it - for you to get better, and you will.

Remember what I said about what I thought about his behaviour at the fairground. He was trying to make you jealous.  Confident, self secure, emotionally well developed people dont need to do this (all the qualities you would expect from a police officer).

Hes a fake, HB, and the best he can do to prop up his self illusion is to get validation from others. This involves you begging him back, or reacting jealousy to his behaviour. youve done none of it, ignored his calls, in your posts youve been confused by it all, shocked at how the guy you felt so highly about is now behaving so pathetically.

"having the time of his life"?

all I can say is "what life?", he sounds like a sad case, and when I started to see my ex in that light - detachment became speedy. When I started to realise I was pining for a sad case, and not the value that I thought I had lost, I started to get angry at how "stupid" I was to have been duped, but that goes away too.

Nearly every police officer in the space of a career will end up in hospital at least once. They may have made a mistake that led to it, but its patch up time and lesson learned, back into the game. knocked down for a bit HB, taken by surprise, its ok to feel the feelings you are now, your well on your way, I wish I had that strength when I started.

I used to have a social circle of shady friends, low life career criminals, if I was to have told them the story of how you present this guy and how he has behaved they would have been laughing their ass off at him - not you. Hes putting on a good front HB, but youve dismantled his ego, and the more you ignore the bait the more you hurt him. He wont show it - he wont go to therapy either. Hes trapped in his own torment where-as you are getting out of a rut. I see the comparison if you cant. Hedonism is a sticky plaster at the expense of "living the life".

Just a bully HB, but you turned out too strong for him to control. Good for you  

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« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2018, 06:28:48 PM »

Cromwell, I must have read this five times. Thank you so much for taking the time to offer this perspective. It’s often so much easier to see something when you are on the outside.  I don’t feel strong, I feel broken. I don’t feel confident, I feel like a joke.  But you writing that you have looked up to me made me feel so good, so thank you. Thank you.  Thank you.

I’ve struggled to understand what in the 2.5 years was real. How I got into an abusive relationship.  What my future looks like.  It’s all so horribly depressing.  When I looked at my options I either could have killed myself or went the medication/support route. I went with option B. Although I spent a lot of time thinking through option A. While I was looking at my options he was on match.com.  Emailing me mean messages. Three months later, still doing the same thing.

I am doing better than three months ago, and you are right, I’m PISSED OFF. I think you are saying the anger is good. Better than the sadness. But putting faces to the “13 women I was with during our 2.5 years” has been excruciatingly painful and angering. I’m not sure how to get past this phase. I’m fearful I never will. Although, according to what you see I’m already winning the battle. I’m working on myself. He never will. He starts and quits therapy.

Forever Dad, he’s a HUGE loser. I read the article and it’s all him. Every part of it is him. I have such a hard time putting others down as I believe we are all equal... .but he’s a loser. You are SO right!
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« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2018, 02:19:05 AM »

Also, you're grieving a loss, a relationship loss, and there are stages of that grief.  Somewhere in the middle is Anger.  You can bounce around from one stage to another and back again, even skip but I believe the last one is Acceptance.  We even have an article and thread somewhere on the topic.  You can search it on the Internet too.

5 stages of Grieving a Loss:
1. Denial and isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Grieving is not an event, it's a process.  Just like recovery from an illness, etc is not an event, it's a process.  Give it time but also do your part to help it along.

Hmm, looking at that list, do you see that your ex never gets to the last stage, Acceptance?  He bounces around the others but never gets his issues resolved.
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« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2018, 11:51:30 AM »

This is negative engagement.  While he may truly be in distress emotionally, you can't help him.  Responding would just renew communication, encourage further contact.  It's a conundrum, there is no good answer.

I have a coffee mug with a Gary Larson comic on it, It has some red guy with a pitchfork , horns and a tail prodding a guy to open a door.  Each has a sign, one reads, "Damned if you do" and the other "Damned if you don't".  Sigh.  That's the extremes we face.  Don't let it get to you.

ForeverDad, this resonated with me. Yesterday I gathered my courage and drew a boundary and, with a polite and friendly email told my ex (the BP) that I needed to not have phone (voice) contact for a bit, that I was fine and would see her (pre-scheduled rendez-vous) tomorrow, and thank you in advance for respecting my boundary on this *even if you don't understand it*.  I expected blowback and shaming and fortunately the shaming didn't come, but there was blowback in the form of several text messages, several emails suggesting we talk but just not about "personal stuff" (ie business, and that won't work and there's nothing that can't be handled in email), and then in the wee hours this morning a quasi-shaming message at 5:30 with the beginnings of shaming "I told you in my email I was worried, I don't know where you are" (she knows where I am).  So, the part of what you wrote that resonated was "negative engagement".  She is desperately reaching out just to be in contact (6+ messages and 2 VMs in 18 hours is not disengaging) and this swell is, I guess, the blowback.  For me this pressure builds, and it's tough to withstand. I feel almost stalked.  I will reply in a bit and be positive and reaffirm the boundary but sheesh this is hard.  Can anyone relate?  Anyone have suggestions or advice?
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« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2018, 01:47:28 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached it's post limit.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330102.msg13007892#msg13007892
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