How do you know it's not you?

[Colombian Chick]

This discussion is really really good.  It probably belongs on "Taking Personal Inventory" the least-used, most-neglected and probably most valuable part of these boards.

I didn't even know about that board! I will go check it out 

By the way everyone!... .I love your posts!

[Auspicious]

I just think we're going to be stomped on by outraged people from the staying board who don't see themselves as unhealthy.

My view of my own unhealthiness has oscillated ... .

I was definitely unhealthy at the beginning - and probably through most - of our relationship. There was a whole flag corps on the field waving red flags, and I refused to see them.

By the time I started to become healthy, we had been together for years, had children. Which complicates things immensely.

[hurtingnbp]

A codependent person looks at a troubled relationship, and rather than thinking "My needs aren't being met; it's time to move on," he or she instead thinks, "what can I change about myself and my behaviors to save this relationship?"  I asked myself this all the time, and it was completely due to my codependent fears.  I'd be lying if I claimed those fears aren't still with me -- I still worry I'll never find love again -- but at least for today, my need to respect myself is stronger.  Lying to me, stealing my money, and sleeping with other guys?  Those are dealbreakers. 



And I think you hit the nail on the head, GCD, regarding your comments on people with BPD not being able to analyze questions like this.  I'm 99% sure that if a person is asking themselves "how do I know it's not me?", then it's not them.  I think most of us have plenty of work to do on ourselves -- the fact that we let ourselves get hurt by disordered people suggests we have room for personal growth -- but not as if we have BPD. 

I agree totally with this first paragraph. We constantly ask ourselves what behaviors do we change about ourselves to make our relationship better? What do we change to make them happier. I don't believe BPD's ask themselves these questions because they are constantly in victim/blamimg mode. Mine used to flat out proclaim "I know I am not the crazy one."

And I third the notion on the second paragraph. As we are on here, in bookstores, and other websites trying to figure out what the hell just happened or what can we do to be better people, they are on facebook, other social networking sites, and searching for "sexy singles" cruises. Thier self refelction is very shallow if it is present at all. By definition, they can't reflect on themselves or that would take away from them being extreme victims.

[centella]

To those of you pointing out that using the tools on then staying board foster codependency:

I agree and I disagree.  The difference seems to be radical acceptance.  Codependents want to change their partner.  Nons who stay must give up the notion that they can do this.  

But, hey, I have no experience with staying. If you tried radical acceptance, StillChasing, and felt that it fostered codependency, then you know more than I do, because I came to these boards after I was already out of my relationship.  I'll take it one step further: I have little or no idea of why most of the people who choose to stay do so.  In some cases, there are children.  In others, it appears that the non has made a decision that the benefits outweigh the negatives.  That's a personal decision, but not one that I could see myself making in the context of my stbxw.  Maybe there are people who are so wonderful that dealing with them having serious emotional dysregulation disorder is somehow worthwhile.  Maybe it's all FOG.  Who knows.

I think this has been a good discussion.

And to those participating, can you ever see a pwBPD analyzing their motives and actions like this?  Thinking about these issues will lead to us being better, stronger people and potential partners.  We will grow and change, and hopefully learn from our experiences.  

GCD145

GCD145, hi,

I would like to give you the perspective of someone who has chosen to stay and later had no choice but to move on. I chose to stay because deep inside I could see who he really is. And I was hoping that with the right amount of love, understanding and dedication, he would realize how sick he was and he would start treating himself. As I am a recovering person with BPD, and managed to stay 8 years without traits, until I fell in love with him and the traits started revealing themselves, I was truly hoping that what happened to me, recovery, could happen to him. I have given him the perspective of a pwBPD, and he would identify himself with it. There was a time when he has admitted that he had a problem, but right after he locked himself up in his nutshell and when I got to communicate with him again, I realized he was even more sick, as he changed his family name and decided that all his family was dead. I suppose this happened because he couldn't deal with the fact that he was sick. It causes a lot of pain to accept the disease, and the inability to deal with such pain triggers the brain to split, again. It's a vicious cycle that we can't control. We have to be very brave and face our demons and this can cost us our own life. I remember that in my case the pain got so severe that 4 months after therapy I've hurt myself physically to easy the psychological pain, and nearly got myself killed. But I was so determined to fix myself, that I was the first one to ask my parents to drive me to the hospital. So upon all my memories, I stood. But what happened was that one year after trying so hard to help him, he was getting more and more in denial, hiding behind my own disease, as my codependency and also my traits were becoming more prominent. Until I have taken the very painful decision of putting him in a place where he would have to chose. I asked for some of my needs to be met, and I have also confronted him with his behavior and all he did was to delete me from his life completely and end any kind of communication. This was 3 weeks ago. I felt devastated as you all may know how it feels when we realize the relationship has ended completely. I still feel that I gave up on him, and I feel bad for it, because I have an idea of what he's going through right now. But I just knew deep inside that even with my experience I was not ready to help him. And after crossing every limit of my own strength, every limit of my resources and fail completely to help him, it was now time to invest all that energy into something I know for sure is not a lost cause: it is time to help myself. Some pwBPD do get better, some completely recover, and knowing this, was reason enough for me to stay. But this knowledge, couldn't keep me from leaving in the end. I don't believe that staying or leaving can determine how healthy or unhealthy we are. To do this, would be like trying to measure the amount of pain we've suffered thus far, which is impossible. The way I see it, it is a personal choice. We as individuals have our reasons to make our own choices and because one has chosen to do something, doesn't mean that it is best for the rest of us to choose the same.

Centella

[Skip]

Maybe I was the one with BPD (or something) all along. I'm in psychotherapy, on anti-depressants, living alone, don't have too many friends, have trouble meeting people, and spend the majority of my time ruminating over my last relationship. My ex has a ton of friends, never got upset about anything, had no problems moving on... .

This is a very common question on these boards.  The answer seems to be that the very fact you question yourself indicates that you are not the pwBPD.

Fact check... . 

This is a common statement made on message boards "the very fact you question yourself indicates that you are not the pwBPD". 

It's not true.

pwBPD almost always know something is wrong and questions themselves.  Most people with BPD have low self esteem and think something is wrong with them.

I'm not suggesting that the thread host has BPD ( I have no reason to think that) - but I am suggesting that the statement is incorrect.

Hope that helps.

[GCD145]

Skip:

Thanks for the correction.  Do you think that pwBPD ever wonder if they have BPD, though?  My stbxw thought she had everything under the sun EXCEPT a PD.

Centella: My story is like yours, except I don't think I am a pwBPD.  I too saw the good, and thought I could fix it, but I couldn't.

Anyone who reads this: please please PLEASE do not let this form the basis of a "staying" vs. "leaving" feud.  Please?

GCD145

[WalrusGumboot]

Maybe I was the one with BPD (or something) all along. I'm in psychotherapy, on anti-depressants, living alone, don't have too many friends, have trouble meeting people, and spend the majority of my time ruminating over my last relationship. My ex has a ton of friends, never got upset about anything, had no problems moving on, and is able to make friends at the drop of a dime. Although I feel like I was subjected to emotional abuse during my relationship, it pales in comparison to some of the stories I've read on this site. Maybe it was emotional abuse at all, maybe I'm just really sensitive. I mean really, maybe I've been the disordered party all along and just don't realize it? How do you know?

francienolan, I have been pondering this as well for a long time. uBPDw jabs at me with comments that continue to chisel away at what is left of my self-esteem. The lower the self-esteem, the more negative we become on ourselves.

I think before we learned about our SO's condition, many of use were at emotional lows in our life. We sought help and learned about the condition of our SO. I know when I learned about it, my well-being soared because I found out it all wasn't my fault. But that was 3 or so years ago. Even though I am wiser and have attempted to use the tools when I can, she has ramped up her symptoms.

Now the feeling of being wrong before has been replaced by a trapped feeling, and allowing myself to stay trapped and thinking being in this relationship is better than being possible alone has caused me to question my own sanity. They beat you down until you don't think you can make it on your own. Amazing. To think back when I was a teenager and the free and independent spirit I was, and self-sufficient, who didn't need a momma to cook for me or wash my dirty underwear. How I let this transformation happen... .that makes me worry about ME.

[united for now]

How do you know it's not you?

You can't - not without getting a full mental health check up from a trained professional.

Saying "if you are asking this question, then you must be healthy" is not accurate, since as Skip says, many BPD sufferers constantly question the pain they feel and the hurt they cause to others.

My stance?

While it feels good to have someone to blame (the pwBPD) and a label to explain what happened to you (I'm codependent or whatever), this still all plays into the whole "I'm a victim" mentality, which will keep you stuck and doesn't encourage you to look in the mirror at your own decisions that got you to where you are... .True growth occurs when we stop pointing fingers outward and start to examine ourselves... .

Read Us as victims for more info on that one... .

[OnceConfused]

I have seen the enemy and it is ME.

I think we all have some degrees of BPD, like fear of abandonment, anger, controlling but the key difference is that we can TEMPER our such feelings with logic,  experiences, self introspection,  and with trust. BPD cannot temper their feelings at all, and consequently they lash out at their partners.

The main thing is that we see our weaknesses and seek help to change, but BPD does not. By acknowledging our own weaknesses, we can then let go of the guilt, learn from the mistakes, and grow from there. From the day my 1st wife died 5 years ago, I have changed a lot and continued to learn and change every day. I have become much more at peace with my life, my children, my future and best of all is I am at peace with ME.

An issue that many of us have struggled with is we can fix ourselves but how do we fix or change our partner for the better. THis will be a struggle now and always will be as long as we are human. We cannot change our partners, though we can shape him/her somewhat, by practicing being compassionate, loving, and patient. For those that can not be shaped or changed then we just have to move on, because we are asking something that cannot be done. To stay and expect perfection from our partner is PURE LUNACY from our part. 

[centella]

Skip:

Thanks for the correction.  Do you think that pwBPD ever wonder if they have BPD, though?  My stbxw thought she had everything under the sun EXCEPT a PD.

Hi GCD145,

I don't know if this helps, but in my case, when I first searched for help with 16 years old, it was because I knew there was something wrong, because of several signs, such as being a great student but incapable of managing school, resulting in failure after failure, or not to mention the suicidal attempts or being caught up in my own lies and not being sure of which was true or not. I was pretty sure that there was something wrong, but back then, when I searched for help, I did it originally as a victim, for all the abuse suffered in my father's hands. It was only 2 years later, when I truly assumed the commitment of helping myself and had the immense luck of finding an incredible therapist, that I've come to realize the real chaos that was in my mind. And it has taken me years until I could realize the real meaning of having BPD, since approaching the disease as a victim of the untreated pwBPD has made me once more read and search for everything about it in an attempt to understand in the best I can, (something I had done a while back for myself). And honestly, I still don't think I know exactly what BPD is, nor if I still have it or not. But I assume and take responsibility for my actions. And I can identify what a normal behavior is and I can identify if someone is being mean or not. And I do see that I could never hurt someone else the way he has hurt me, sometimes without showing any kind of empathy for my pain. Or maybe I could do this as well, hurt someone, because I'm a human being and I can make mistakes, but then I would be beating myself up and kicking my conscience for the rest of my life, for doing so. And I think that in here lies the difference, most of the times he is not aware of the damage he causes and if someone confronts him with it, he bursts into hanger and shuts that someone out of his life forever. It is complicated. The only thing I'm sure is that I do need to become a better person, and as I become better, there's always a reason to become even better again, so this quest may take my entire life to be succeeded.

[VanessaG]

This is all fascinating stuff.  Thank you.

On the topic of "if you're thinking you're BPD, you're probably not" and the fact that it is not necessarily the case, let me offer up my experience with my uBPDp to see if it resonates with anyone else.

He did, in fact, know that there was something not-quite-right with him.  He had a drinking problem, and occasionally questioned whether or not he was an alcoholic.  At various times, he would confess the following:  "I am hard on people", "I used to have anger issues", "I can't shake the feeling that I don't really MEAN anything to anyone", "I have a fantasy that she will rescue me."  

That said, when I suggested (and this was before I knew much of anything about BPD) that he seek counseling, that he had demons that he needed help fighting and that there was a wonderful man in there if only he could slay them, he absolutely, steadfastly refused.

The impression I've gotten, from what I've read here and in some of the recommended books, is that pwBPD rarely seek treatment or even a diagnosis.  It sometimes happens as a result of a suicide attempt, or as a resolution to an ultimatum from a spouse/partner.

So, truly, what is the likelihood that someone who has researched BPD to some degree, and is, in fact, part of a discussion group like this one, actually HAS it?  I would say unlikely, though of course, certainly not impossible.  The impression I get is that most of our own insecurities after a period of time with a pwBPD is what is termed "fleas."

I use a pseudonym here, but have spilled enough facts about my pwBPD that if he ever came here and sleuthed around, he could easily find my posts.

But I know that the likelihood of that is about nil.

Thoughts?

VanessaG

PS  Good book on co-dependency is Codependent No More by Melody Beattie.  Highly recommended by me.

[ron7127]

I think I know it is not me because people like me, long term. I get along with my co-workers, friends,and family-long term. I have a good job history. I had excellent credit before the marriage. I never cut myself, had an eating or substance abuse problem and was neither promiscuous or unfaithful. I did not insult people or speak poorly of them behind their backs. I never XXX'd someone out of my life for a perceived slight. My kids love me and do not fear me. I do not overspend or steal and I seldom lied(although I started to to my ex-wife to avoid conflict). I was happy, for the most part and did not feel empty(until I got married to her. Then, I was lonely as hell).

I think one of the keys to answering this question is to try to look at yourself honestly before involvement with the PD person. You will find the usual flaws and blips. But, nothing as pervasive as the person with the PD has.

I researched my XW's past, after finding out about her affairs. She had been involved in affairs with two married guys before(and probably more, but these were the ones folks knew about). She had slept with her highschool soccer coach for two years, cheating on her boyfriend.

She had quit college  her senior year and shacked up with a married guy in a neighboring town, sending home fake transcripts to her folks, who thought she was in school She told me she had graduated college and kept up that lie for 9 years.

When we were looking for a house, my realtor informed me that her credit was so bad, she could not be on the mortgage. HEr parents describe her a a habitual liar, without a conscience and advised me to divorce her. She has been arrested in front of our kids for failure to make court appearances on misdemeanor driving charges. She drove our car for 3 years without her license, unbeknownst to me.

She routinely doused  me with cold water when I showered and when I was clothed, once. She told me I was "like a woman" and that i had no penis or balls.

No doubt in my mind that I was married to a disordered woman.

The egregious abuse is burned in my mind and helps me realize that it was not me. I have never treated anyone as she did me andas she treats others.

I do need to look at what part of me allowed this to happen and why I stayed so long.

[Skip]

... .when I suggested (and this was before I knew much of anything about BPD) that he seek counseling, that he had demons that he needed help fighting and that there was a wonderful man in there if only he could slay them, he absolutely, steadfastly refused.t No More [/u] by Melody Beattie.  

This is true for most people with mental health issues... .unless they are in emotional crisis. Did any of us go to a T when things were OK?

I also think that I would expand the possible issues that a non may have beyond codependency to include narcissism or narcissistic  traits, low self esteem/self image, life crisis (divorce, death, loss of job), shyness/ limited dating skills, substance abuse, etc.

And I would add, that it is not likely just one party that has issues... .it's more likely both parties are dealing with things, one more than the other.  


And my last comment would be that everyone that I know that made significant progress (either leaving or staying) discovered that they had a much larger role in the problem than they thought.

[ron7127]

I have to disagree with Skip. I am by no means perfect. But,(and I know this is subjective), I played no role in the problem other than tolerating it too long. And, that was primarily due to the masking during courtship and my concern for my kids.

I think many nons are way too hard on themselves. I was relatively inexperienced in romance and was very trusting. I guess being trusting can be labeled a bad thing, but, I certainly did ot want to be mistrustful of my spouse.

Yes, we need to learn from this. But, I just do not see how I contributed much to this. And, if anything, I was way to willing to accept responsibility for things beyond my control.

[centella]

I have to disagree with Skip. I am by no means perfect. But,(and I know this is subjective), I played no role in the problem other than tolerating it too long. And, that was primarily due to the masking during courtship and my concern for my kids.

I think many nons are way too hard on themselves. I was relatively inexperienced in romance and was very trusting. I guess being trusting can be labeled a bad thing, but, I certainly did ot want to be mistrustful of my spouse.

Yes, we need to learn from this. But, I just do not see how I contributed much to this. And, if anything, I was way to willing to accept responsibility for things beyond my control.

Hi Ron7127,

I'm truly sorry for all you've been through.

I'd like to say that we can only take responsibility for what it is within our control. However, there's an ancient universal law that stands for cause and effect. Every action we take, leads to a certain consequence, either good, bad or sometimes neutral. And sometimes, not acting at all has its consequences as well. In my opinion, we cause them to feel certain emotions, and perhaps that is our primarily role in the problem even if we're not aware of it. And then, it follows by not knowing how to deal with their response to their own emotions. It's not a process of beating ourselves up because of what we should've done, it's more a process of introspection and self growth that only one can do for himself.

But again, all this is debatable since each experience is unique and only you two know exactly what happened in that relationship.

It's just the way I see things, doesn't mean that it's right. I just like to keep an open mind and explore all possibilities.

Take care,

Centella

[ron7127]

Centella, thnks.

I agree that myrole was to have not set boundaries. But, I thought my wife cared for me and I never expected to heve to enforce boundaries as I assumed she had my best interest at heart, initially.

I ran this by ny therapist, my role, and asked if I could have done anything to change her behavior by having battled her constantly. He s\assured me that all that would have accomplished was to end the relationship sooner, which would have been a good thing.Once we had kids, I was scared of losing them. So, I stayed until the discovery of the serial infidelity.

Thank God, she cheated. It was the bright linr for me and I got out.

[Discarded]

you can improve your mental health, well-being and general happiness in counseling, even if you're not "broken".

in that case i'm up for a lot of improving, cause i'm shattered, tattered, torn & battered~

[StillChasing]

StillChasing:

The only thing that bugs me is that you seem to be saying that no healthy person would stay in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I agree with you; I just think we're going to be stomped on by outraged people from the staying board who don't see themselves as unhealthy.

A very good point, GCD.  I should note that I'm basing my beliefs on my own experience; that the only reason I put up with what I did was because of my own codependence.  There are some tricky situations in which a person stays out of necessity -- possibly for economic reasons or out of fear of losing custody of children to someone with BPD -- so I'm sympathetic to that.  I'm also sympathetic to people who stay out of love.  I used to be one of the latter, so I understand it all too well.  But I truly believe that anyone who wants to commit themselves to a person who abuses them, belittles them, threatens them, lies to them, and betrays them, should really think hard about why they want to be with such a person.  In my own case, I never would have taken my ex back after the first affair if I had any sense of self-respect.  I mistakenly thought that my forgiveness would show her how much I loved her.  Instead, it only showed her how much of a sucker I was, and she continued to play me much longer than I should have let her.  Shame on the disorder for causing her to do that, but shame on me for letting it happen in the first place.

I also think that I would expand the possible issues that a non may have beyond codependency to include narcissism or narcissistic  traits, low self esteem/self image, life crisis (divorce, death, loss of job), shyness/ limited dating skills, substance abuse, etc.

And I would add, that it is not likely just one party that has issues... .it's more likely both parties are dealing with things, one more than the other.  


And my last comment would be that everyone that I know that made significant progress (either leaving or staying) discovered that they had a much larger role in the problem than they thought.

I agree with much of that, Skip.  Like I noted earlier, most of us should take a long, hard look in the mirror, and try to get to the bottom of what's wrong.  :)o many of us still have room for personal growth?  Absolutely.  But I don't think (m)any of us are suffering from BPD.  I truly doubt we'd be here if we did.  

How am I so confident that I'm not suffering from undiagnosed BPD?  Because in my relationship, I wasn't the one that professed my undying love to my significant other, told her I wanted to move in with her, marry her, and have kids with her... .and then cheated on her less than 12 hours later.  That, and about 50 other red flags.  

I could easily be diagnosed with Idiotic and Gullible Boyfriend Disorder, but BPD's not my problem.  

[MxMan]

I have seen the enemy and it is ME... .

Amen to this. Same here.

[trax]

I have also wondered.  Lucky for me that my exhusband reminds me often that he is the problem (or the bigger problem, I obviously have some issues)  

Just yesterday he texted me how much he missed me and still loved me etc.  Thats nice, except for the fact that he got married again earlier this year... .hmmm... .oh but hes so unhappy with his wife and was forced to marry her... . Healthy people don't do that sh!t.  Healthy people don't triangulate their wife and exwife.

[2010]

I also think that I would expand the possible issues that a non may have beyond codependency to include narcissism or narcissistic  traits, low self esteem/self image, life crisis (divorce, death, loss of job), shyness/ limited dating skills, substance abuse, etc.

And I would add, that it is not likely just one party that has issues... .it's more likely both parties are dealing with things, one more than the other. 


And my last comment would be that everyone that I know that made significant progress (either leaving or staying) discovered that they had a much larger role in the problem than they thought.

Skip- this is where I'm at right now. Realizing that my *actions* were *reactions* to efforts of trying to control the disorder only to cause more disorder.

There was no order in any of my actions- only reactions to someone elses fear. 

Thinking that I was safe and that issues were solved after every reaction was wrong. Everytime I thought it was solved was just my own narcissism setting me up for a downfall. I really thought I was a great person- a great mediator- a great partner- but I wasn't taking care of myself. I was letting another person (with a character disorder) dictate what would fill my life- what would get my attention and what would exhaust my energy- making me appear as frazzled and out of sorts as a crazy person in an asylum... .and trying harder and harder to fix what wasn't mine to begin with.

My childhood taught me how to do that.  I spent most of my time dealing with other's issues. Rarely did I concentrate on my own. Now I see the wisdom in placing myself first.

[BrienBear]

I also think that I would expand the possible issues that a non may have beyond codependency to include narcissism or narcissistic  traits, low self esteem/self image, life crisis (divorce, death, loss of job), shyness/ limited dating skills, substance abuse, etc.

And I would add, that it is not likely just one party that has issues... .it's more likely both parties are dealing with things, one more than the other. 


And my last comment would be that everyone that I know that made significant progress (either leaving or staying) discovered that they had a much larger role in the problem than they thought.

Skip- this is where I'm at right now. Realizing that my *actions* were *reactions* to efforts of trying to control the disorder only to cause more disorder.

There was no order in any of my actions- only reactions to someone elses fear. 

Thinking that I was safe and that issues were solved after every reaction was wrong. Everytime I thought it was solved was just my own narcissism setting me up for a downfall. I really thought I was a great person- a great mediator- a great partner- but I wasn't taking care of myself. I was letting another person (with a character disorder) dictate what would fill my life- what would get my attention and what would exhaust my energy- making me appear as frazzled and out of sorts as a crazy person in an asylum... .and trying harder and harder to fix what wasn't mine to begin with.

My childhood taught me how to do that.  I spent most of my time dealing with other's issues. Rarely did I concentrate on my own. Now I see the wisdom in placing myself first.

The problem that I have with this in the first place is this - if we dont know what we're doing is wrong, we're going to continue doing the wrong thing.

In a normal non-non relationship, you talk things out, you work them out, and you move on. I've had a normal non-non relationship and when we'd talk things out, we'd be ok. But you can't blame yourself because you were reacting normally/logically to an illogical situation. Someone in another thread said that  - "you can't apply logic to an illogical situation" and its SO TRUE.

So how can you be a narccisist (sp) if you dont know you are reacting wrongly to a situation to begin with? And if you know the truth and react differently once the truth is found, does that still make you a narccisist or does that make you human? Most of the time we dont know we're dealing with a pwBPD or dont realize the extent (my case. He told me he had BPD from the start and I didn't do my research. Thats my bad... .)

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 and looking back I see a lot of things I should have done differently having known what I know now. But generally when you are dealing with a pwBPD you can't expect them to react the way you've had people react in the past. For instance, if you are with a non, they dont generally fly off the handle and have a nervous breakdown because you say they dont have a jawline.

That doesn't make you less at fault. But it does make you human because you didn't know everything in the first place. You didn't know that your actions/reactions were "wrong" to begin with.

[GCD145]

I also think that I would expand the possible issues that a non may have beyond codependency to include narcissism or narcissistic  traits, low self esteem/self image, life crisis (divorce, death, loss of job), shyness/ limited dating skills, substance abuse, etc.

And I would add, that it is not likely just one party that has issues... .it's more likely both parties are dealing with things, one more than the other. 


And my last comment would be that everyone that I know that made significant progress (either leaving or staying) discovered that they had a much larger role in the problem than they thought.

Skip- this is where I'm at right now. Realizing that my *actions* were *reactions* to efforts of trying to control the disorder only to cause more disorder.

There was no order in any of my actions- only reactions to someone elses fear. 

Thinking that I was safe and that issues were solved after every reaction was wrong. Everytime I thought it was solved was just my own narcissism setting me up for a downfall. I really thought I was a great person- a great mediator- a great partner- but I wasn't taking care of myself. I was letting another person (with a character disorder) dictate what would fill my life- what would get my attention and what would exhaust my energy- making me appear as frazzled and out of sorts as a crazy person in an asylum... .and trying harder and harder to fix what wasn't mine to begin with.

My childhood taught me how to do that.  I spent most of my time dealing with other's issues. Rarely did I concentrate on my own. Now I see the wisdom in placing myself first.

Your post describes my situation so well that I'm wondering if I have an alternate personality who posts when "I'm" asleep!

GCD145

[Auspicious]

I think my main (though surely not only) issue is that with a whole flag corps on the field waving about 50 red flags, I'm like "flags, what flags?"

[oceanheart]

pwBPD aren't another species . . . it's a matter of degree vs. kind. And it's fluid, situational.

healthy <---------------------------------=--------------------------------->unhealthy

Notice they're on the same dimension. Where do you fall? I'm much more to the left when I'm not in a relationship with someone with mental health issues. Aren't we all? We are interdependent and react to what's around us. So being with someone with problems would probably magnify our own, especially if we historically have weak boundaries [e.g., 2010's comment: "My childhood taught me how to do that."].

But perhaps I'm being too B&W  and it's more than 2 dimensions. I really rather prefer 2 axis, but couldn't think of any. Any suggestions?

Just a thought - would a "healthy" person be less likely to be moved towards the other side? Because they would have a core inner health? And how do we find and keep that?

[BrienBear]

Just a thought - would a "healthy" person be less likely to be moved towards the other side? Because they would have a core inner health? And how do we find and keep that?

I think a truly healthy person would notice the red flags and run away entirely. But how many "truly healthy" people are out there anymore?

[Auspicious]

Just to confuse things further, there's "health" and then there's "health" ... .

A couple years ago when my wife was projecting hard, I asked my therapist about whether he saw anything to diagnose in me.  He didn't, but said that the bigger question was how people function.  Even if he had diagnosed something in me, I was doing well with my job, parenting well, relating well to people (in general   ), having a stable, functional life as much as circumstances allowed. What would it even mean to say "both of you have a disorder"?

[oceanheart]

Disorder causes ripples... .the extent to which the "waves" cause problems in your life could determine how disordered you are?

I'd say one major component of "health" is just homeostasis/balance, which is true for our bodies' health. And since I think mind is from body (and isn't separate or categorically different), it follows our mind wants to maintain that calm, steady state, too. I can feel a sense of peace starting to re-assert itself now that I ended my toxic relationship. Maybe because it's easier this way (to not fight all the time), but maybe also because health feels good and natural without so much having to try. I dunno what I'm trying to say, but I feel it's right

[hurtingnbp]

[/quote]
For instance, if you are with a non, they dont generally fly off the handle and have a nervous breakdown because you say they dont have a jawline. [/quote]
LMAO! Sorry, I know this varies from the more serious discussion but is this also a trait of pwBPD- the lack of a jawline? Mine has no jawline. It goes cheekbones to chin. She is very beautiful , though, just no jawline. Sorry to break up the discussion. Now we can get back... .

[BrienBear]

For instance, if you are with a non, they dont generally fly off the handle and have a nervous breakdown because you say they dont have a jawline.

LMAO! Sorry, I know this varies from the more serious discussion but is this also a trait of pwBPD- the lack of a jawline? Mine has no jawline. It goes cheekbones to chin. She is very beautiful , though, just no jawline. Sorry to break up the discussion. Now we can get back... .

LOL! no no - I meant that generally people dont have nervous breakdowns based on minor comments. LOL

The story behind that is we were talking about how we use facial hair to create jawlines and I said "I can understand why you do. You have a round face so you dont really have a jawline" and he freaked out and told me that "my attractiveness is all I have left and you just told me I dont have that anymore". I didn't realize that no jawline equated to unattractiveness... .

Of course any time I'd do or say something, it was the end of the world and whatever it was I was saying or doing was all he had left in the world... .*rolls eyes*