How do you know it's not you?

[francienolan]

I also think that I would expand the possible issues that a non may have beyond codependency to include narcissism or narcissistic  traits, low self esteem/self image, life crisis (divorce, death, loss of job), shyness/ limited dating skills, substance abuse, etc.

And I would add, that it is not likely just one party that has issues... .it's more likely both parties are dealing with things, one more than the other. 


And my last comment would be that everyone that I know that made significant progress (either leaving or staying) discovered that they had a much larger role in the problem than they thought.

Skip- this is where I'm at right now. Realizing that my *actions* were *reactions* to efforts of trying to control the disorder only to cause more disorder.

There was no order in any of my actions- only reactions to someone elses fear. 

Thinking that I was safe and that issues were solved after every reaction was wrong. Everytime I thought it was solved was just my own narcissism setting me up for a downfall. I really thought I was a great person- a great mediator- a great partner- but I wasn't taking care of myself. I was letting another person (with a character disorder) dictate what would fill my life- what would get my attention and what would exhaust my energy- making me appear as frazzled and out of sorts as a crazy person in an asylum... .and trying harder and harder to fix what wasn't mine to begin with.

My childhood taught me how to do that.  I spent most of my time dealing with other's issues. Rarely did I concentrate on my own. Now I see the wisdom in placing myself first.

From what I've been discussing with my T, I feel like this was my issue as well and it was born in childhood. Always trying to please other people, to be the "good girl" and do whatever I have to do to make sure others were ok, happy, etc. My needs, thoughts, and feelings came second. I can see how this played out in my relationship with my ex. I was just repeating that same pattern and trying to resolve it. Trying to get that unconditional love that never came no matter how hard I tried.

I was aware of some of this going into the relationship. I was in therapy before my relationship began and learned then how I've repeated this same pattern over and over again in romantic relationships, work relationships, friendships, etc. I went into this relationship with the determination that THIS TIME THINGS WILL BE DIFFERENT. I was more proactive about identifying my needs, being vocal about them, etc. Even though the red flags abounded (as early as the first date), I saw this guy as really in need of that same unconditional love that I was always chasing and found myself wanting to give it to him, to show him that he was worthy of it, that I was capable of it, etc. Part of me felt sorry for him in the same way that I felt sorry for that little girl (me) who would contort herself any which way to make mom and dad happy. I identified with it and made it my own. And there I was, repeating that same pattern again.

I thought I was doing the right thing (after all, I was the one in therapy and I had so much insight) and that one day... .just look at what the love of a good woman can do!   
My question now is what was I expecting? What was I hoping to gain and what would the result have changed? What would it have meant?

[ron7127]

I just think the mistake most of us make is to expect the pwPD to be somewhat normal. I don't beat mysekf p for this. I'd never heard pf {D's before the abuse started and I egan researching. Now, I know what to look for. I don't think I have qny bigtime issues , other thanpast naivete and being too trusting.

These do not really require therapy, just education, which I now have.The therapy did provide the education re who I had been dealing with too.

[hiddenlizard]

co-dependency, co-dependency, co-dependency... .I just don't buy into the idea that caring about someone who has a problem means I have a problem called "co-dependency". If one goes by the popular definition of co-dependent just about anyone who is sociable has co-dependent traits. 

I read great definition the other day that sounds very much outside the box that has coined the concepts of "co-dependency" (paraphrase) a co-dependent is someone who benefits from and therefore encourages another person's addictive or otherwise maladaptive behavior.

Sure, we all contributed to the relationships we had with the BPDs in our lives. I was so hungry for attention that I went right for the bait and was hooked before I knew what was happening. I knew so little about BPD. I had no way to interpret what was happening so I let him convince me that *I* was the one with the problem. Classic abuse.

So, find your own weakness, find the soft spot, and just move it to a more protected location. It is your treasure. It is precious. Just stop calling it names that it does not deserve... .

[2010]

Sorry, where in the thread do you read the mention of co-dependency?

[Howzah]

co-dependency, co-dependency, co-dependency... .I just don't buy into the idea that caring about someone who has a problem means I have a problem called "co-dependency".

That isn't what co-dependency is

Co-dependency is when you suffer massive amounts of emotional and sometimes physical abuse yet still stay in the relationship. You become a walking doormat but believe yourself to not be lovable. You have no self esteem, so you rationalize and excuse horrible treatment by someone who says "they love you", even though the vast amount of their actions and behavior would show any rational person how that isn't true.

We are not healthy people for being in these BPD relationships for any significant amount of time. That's why none of this has anything to do with BPD. It's not about fixing the relationship with your BPDSO. It's about fixing you. It's about figuring out how we took the abuse for so long, made excuses for it, romanticized a mentally ill person abusing us for so long, ect.

[2010]

We are not healthy people for being in these BPD relationships for any significant amount of time. That's why none of this has anything to do with BPD. It's not about fixing the relationship with your BPDSO. It's about fixing you. It's about figuring out how we took the abuse for so long, made excuses for it, romanticized a mentally ill person abusing us for so long, ect.

[oceanheart]

A very difficult and worthwhile article and exercise. I'm still on step one... .

[Colombian Chick]

co-dependency, co-dependency, co-dependency... .I just don't buy into the idea that caring about someone who has a problem means I have a problem called "co-dependency".

That isn't what co-dependency is

Co-dependency is when you suffer massive amounts of emotional and sometimes physical abuse yet still stay in the relationship. You become a walking doormat but believe yourself to not be lovable. You have no self esteem, so you rationalize and excuse horrible treatment by someone who says "they love you", even though the vast amount of their actions and behavior would show any rational person how that isn't true.

We are not healthy people for being in these BPD relationships for any significant amount of time. That's why none of this has anything to do with BPD. It's not about fixing the relationship with your BPDSO. It's about fixing you. It's about figuring out how we took the abuse for so long, made excuses for it, romanticized a mentally ill person abusing us for so long, ect.

Very true

[francienolan]

A very difficult and worthwhile article and exercise. I'm still on step one... .

I love that website. When I first broke up with my ex, I found it very empowering. I think I need to go back and read it more often.

[BrienBear]

co-dependency, co-dependency, co-dependency... .I just don't buy into the idea that caring about someone who has a problem means I have a problem called "co-dependency".

That isn't what co-dependency is

Co-dependency is when you suffer massive amounts of emotional and sometimes physical abuse yet still stay in the relationship. You become a walking doormat but believe yourself to not be lovable. You have no self esteem, so you rationalize and excuse horrible treatment by someone who says "they love you", even though the vast amount of their actions and behavior would show any rational person how that isn't true.

We are not healthy people for being in these BPD relationships for any significant amount of time. That's why none of this has anything to do with BPD. It's not about fixing the relationship with your BPDSO. It's about fixing you. It's about figuring out how we took the abuse for so long, made excuses for it, romanticized a mentally ill person abusing us for so long, ect.

Maybe I had a completely different experience but I disagree with this. I met a guy who was my ideal type physically, who also seemed interested in me ! OMG! Within 3 weeks of meeting him, he was homeless so I couldn't let a fellow human being live on the street. Now mind you in hindsight I see that he manipulated my "humanitarian" nature (My T's words) but it just went downhill from there.

I talked to my T about codependence because my best friend was like "you are codependent". I'm like "I disagree. I can't just put someone out on the street". My T agreed. She said that if I were codependent I wouldn't have even considered my needs because I'd have been too ragged to. Instead I made sure that I was doing what I wanted to do, going out with my friends, despite his meltdowns and protests (he tried very hard to keep me away from my friends), etc. I didn't let him rule or ruin my life. He did to some extent. Or at least for the 8 months that he was around.

I think maybe why I'm so different is I had anger problems to begin with and the more he was around and pulled his $hit the more angry I got and the less I was willing to take/tolerate. I supported him for 6 of the 8 months because I could (I make enuf money that its not a problem).But once I saw that he wasn't trying, was too busy laying in bed for two months watching streaming netflix... .Or sleeping with anything he could get his hands on, I just said why am I bothering? and gave him the boot. It ended REALLY badly but I think it just took me hitting my limit to give him the heave-ho.

Of course its not without its issues... .i'm scared now to walk from my garage to my apt (about 50 feet away), and I keep finding eggs (literally, eggs) he's hidden in my room so they'll rot and explode... .but having my life back is worth any temporary (albeit disgusting) stink I may find.

He's also blocked through my wireless carrier and I've made filters so any emails that come from any of his known email accounts will be automatically deleted. I dont need that crap in my life. I dont need his BS in my life, and I certainly dont need his mental illness in my life.Someone who can take everything I tried to do for them (make sure he had a roof and a place to stay, fed, etc) and act like because they rubbed my back once in a while or brought me water when I was coughing when I was sick is the same thing is obviously sick in the head. I bent over backwards at every junction I could and my repayment is rotten eggs because I couldn't take the abuse anymore... .Yeah thats enough to make me realize that I dont need that bullsh!t. and he's not worth it, nor was he ever.

And something that constantly sticks in my head that my best friend said to me one time is this - "You are not responsible for him." I am NOT his caretaker, nor his whipping boy. I am not his money-tree, nor mother. I was being a partner for 5 months, then friend for the last 3 (after I broke up with him but still tried to be there for him), but he made sure to crap all over that. So now I am nothing to him. His loss, not mine.

Edit - after re-reading this, it sounds like I'm saying I had no fault. Thats not the case. I recognize and realize my fault in it as well (though I refuse to take a 50/50 split.) In the end (after the break-up before the moveout) I would fly into my own rages. At one point, after having gotten into my email (changing passwords didnt deter this guy... .) for the 7th time, I had him on the floor in front of me while i looked down on/at him screaming obscenities. Imagine a 6'6 300 pound guy cowering in front of a 5'5 260 pound guy... .its almost comical if it hadn't been so sad. But that was also my trigger to get the frack out of there... .Or rather to get him out.

My T said that the word for me was "victimized". He saw what a good nature I had and chose to take advantage of it.

Sorry, little long there. My bad.

[Dorian]

making friends easily is a borderline trait. they are very engaging.

that's how she hooked you. my ex is like that. whenever we would

go out, i'd go to the john & by the time i got back she'd be chatting

& laughing with at least one person. they're slick as hell. look, when

you're an absolutely ruined person inside, you had better be able to

hide it, & hide it well. they know this. & the fact that you ended up

with a BPD pretty much says you're a decent hearted person. they

need people with kind hearts to prey on. emotional destruction is

the mission. hardened people are too much work, plus they run the

risk of getting played themselves, & they can't be arsed to feel

one-upped in any way. so yes, they need an easy target.

Ditto. That's exactly how mine was too. And in addition she would drop friends just as easily. That usually happened after they called her on her ___ or started to open up and ask her to do the same. Ha, I just remembered that one of her favorite quotes was from some hip-hop song, "play game before game plays you."  That says it all.

[oceanheart]

There are a few a good workshops and threads on some of these issues:

1. US: Why we stay - Traumatic Bonding, Intermittent Reinforcement, Stockholm Syndrome.

2. US: Why we don't see it coming and why we stay.

3. Why Do WE Walk on Eggshells?

And I'm sure there are many more helpful discussions. But the common thread is: what can I do to help/change/control myself. That's where the focus has to ultimately lay - "the why of I" . . .

[ron7127]

Yes, we have to change to see red flags and be less naive. But, "co-dependency" is way overused, IMO.

Look, I take pride in having been a giving person,willing to compromise and help someone out. It took some time, due to courtship masking, for me to realize that my ex did not feel the same way in was in this entirely for herself. I guess I had not encountered many people like this and had a hard time accepting that the person underneath the mask was the real her. No one told me about all her weird past behaviors until after the fact.

It is just too simplistic for me, the concept that one should bolt immediately, when their are kids to consider. I detached for a good long time before divorcing, hoping that her behaviors would change. I simply could not believe this was who she really was. These folks do not reveal themselves right away. They chip away at you until you question yourself.

Most of the folks posting on these boards are intelligent, articulate people who have led their lives in a responsible, caring way. Thye have the typical insecurities that most people do, but not some deep problem like co-dependency, IMO.

I have found that many things in life are somewhat the luck of the draw. Just because you were fooled does not make you some masochistic , low self esteem type. One's self esteem can be fine, but, after dealing with someone with a PD, it is often damaged for a while.

Yes, it is not all that productive to go back and try to figure out how you may have acted differently, to have affected the relationship. I believe that there was nothing one could have done, with the PD in place.

But, it does help to know about the existence of these things and their subtler manifestations that may be evident in courtship. Best to err on the side of safety. In the past, I gave the benefit of the doubt, but no more.

I am sure this has resulted in my eliminating certain relationships with individuals who were not PD'd, but merely had some bad luck in their pasts. But, I cannot take that chance, again.

[Colombian Chick]

I think maybe why I'm so different is I had anger problems to begin with and the more he was around and pulled his $hit the more angry I got and the less I was willing to take/tolerate. I supported him for 6 of the 8 months because I could (I make enuf money that its not a problem).But once I saw that he wasn't trying, was too busy laying in bed for two months watching streaming netflix... .Or sleeping with anything he could get his hands on, I just said why am I bothering? and gave him the boot. It ended REALLY badly but I think it just took me hitting my limit to give him the heave-ho.

I think you just described codependency. Here's the definition of Codependency from the book Codependent No More:

A codependent person is one who has let another person's behavior affect him or her, and who is obsessed with controlling that person's behavior.

This is what I understood from what you wrote:

1. you became upset when he wasn't doing what YOU thought he should (codependent).

2. You became upset that he wasn't trying (codependent) to do what YOU thought he should.

3. You supported him for months (codependent).

4. you suffer from a lot of anger (codependent).

A person's limit would have been giving him the phone number for the nearest shelter and allowed HIM to get his life together.

I strongly recommend watching this youtube video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCG1Owc4cZ0

[letitgo]

co-dependency, co-dependency, co-dependency... .I just don't buy into the idea that caring about someone who has a problem means I have a problem called "co-dependency".

That isn't what co-dependency is

Co-dependency is when you suffer massive amounts of emotional and sometimes physical abuse yet still stay in the relationship. You become a walking doormat but believe yourself to not be lovable. You have no self esteem, so you rationalize and excuse horrible treatment by someone who says "they love you", even though the vast amount of their actions and behavior would show any rational person how that isn't true.

We are not healthy people for being in these BPD relationships for any significant amount of time. That's why none of this has anything to do with BPD. It's not about fixing the relationship with your BPDSO. It's about fixing you. It's about figuring out how we took the abuse for so long, made excuses for it, romanticized a mentally ill person abusing us for so long, ect.

Well said... .Perfect!

[Colombian Chick]

I read my Codependent No More to search for something that I had read that helped me understand a codependent pattern. Here it is:

Codependents are caretakers - rescuers. They rescue, then they persecute, then they end up victimized. Study the Karpman Drama Triangle. The Karpman Drama Triangle and the accompanying roles of rescuer, prosecutor, and victim, are the works and observations of Stephen B. Karpman

This was it. This was the pattern. This is our pattern. This is what we repeatedly do with friends, family, acquanintances, clients, or anybody around us. As codependents, we may do many things, but this pattern is what we do best and most often. This is our favorite reaction.

We are the rescuers, the enablers. We are the great godmothers or godfathers to the entire world, as Earnie Larsen says. We do not only meet people's needs, we anticipate them. We fix, nurture, and fuss over others. we make better, solve, and attend to. And we do it all so well. "Your wish is my command", is our theme. "Your problem is my problem," is our motto. We are the caretakers.

What's a rescue?

Rescuing and caretaking mean almost what they sound like. We rescue people from their responsabilities. We take care of people's responsabilities for them. Later we get mad at them for what we've done. Then we feel used and sorry for ourselves. That is the pattern, the triangle.

Rescuing and caretaking are synonymous. Their definitions are closely connected to enabling. Enabling is therapeutic jargon that means a destructive form of helping.

[BrienBear]

I think maybe why I'm so different is I had anger problems to begin with and the more he was around and pulled his $hit the more angry I got and the less I was willing to take/tolerate. I supported him for 6 of the 8 months because I could (I make enuf money that its not a problem).But once I saw that he wasn't trying, was too busy laying in bed for two months watching streaming netflix... .Or sleeping with anything he could get his hands on, I just said why am I bothering? and gave him the boot. It ended REALLY badly but I think it just took me hitting my limit to give him the heave-ho.

I think you just described codependency. Here's the definition of Codependency from the book Codependent No More:

A codependent person is one who has let another person's behavior affect him or her, and who is obsessed with controlling that person's behavior.

This is what I understood from what you wrote:

1. you became upset when he wasn't doing what YOU thought he should (codependent).

2. You became upset that he wasn't trying (codependent) to do what YOU thought he should.

3. You supported him for months (codependent).

4. you suffer from a lot of anger (codependent).

A person's limit would have been giving him the phone number for the nearest shelter and allowed HIM to get his life together.

I strongly recommend watching this youtube video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCG1Owc4cZ0

We looked into shelters for him - they were all full.  

Here's my questions -

When should you help a fellow human being? When should you not? You see someone homeless that you want to date, hearing their sob stories (IE "I moved here for a guy and he booted me once I got here." {that was what happened and how he ended up on the street} Red flag, yes. But I was stupid, and heavily attracted).

When you DO help someone, when does it become codependent? Is it automatic codependency if you do help someone you are dating/attempting to date? Is it "rescuing"?

Is it wrong to expect the person you are helping to try and help themselves as well? Or to at least somewhat appreciate the help you are giving them? And if so, why?

I'm ok with accepting a label such as codependent but I need to understand how I got to that in the first place when I can't understand how helping someone is a bad thing. Did I expect at least some common courtesy? Yes. My T agrees that its not wrong to expect that. Whats your take?

Codependents are caretakers - rescuers. They rescue, then they persecute, then they end up victimized. Study the Karpman Drama Triangle. The Karpman Drama Triangle and the accompanying roles of rescuer, prosecutor, and victim, are the works and observations of Stephen B. Karpman

This was it. This was the pattern. This is our pattern. This is what we repeatedly do with friends, family, acquanintances, clients, or anybody around us. As codependents, we may do many things, but this pattern is what we do best and most often. This is our favorite reaction.

This is interesting wording. Especially the victimized part. My T said that I was victimized by this man (her words) because of my caring nature. He took advantage of it.

I dont see that pattern throughout my relationships overall (friends, family, etc) but I do offer support when needed. What does that make me? A sometimes-codependent? Or just a nice guy?

When is it appropriate to offer help to friends, family etc?

I'm trying to understand, cuz at this point, I'm like ":)DEERRRR". LOL

I fully admit I shoulda seen the red flags from the beginning, or rather heeded them and ran away, but I didn't. But I dont understand how ignoring red flags makes me codependent.

[Auspicious]

You see someone homeless that you want to date,

Maybe this should be red flag #1?

[ron7127]

By the definition cited above, I doubt too many of us are codependent. I had no interest in rescuing anyone. I was looking for a healthy, normal relationship, with mutuality.

There were no outright signs during courtship that my XW needed a whole lot of help. She worked, was fit and good looking, and was fun and sexy. In no way did she show signs of what was to come.

However, once there was serious enmeshment, with a baby on the way, a mortgage, and marriage, she began acting much differently. I stayed in because of my commitment to my vows and my children.

I think this is true for a great many of us. We did not know about what lay beneath the surface. So, we did not go in as rescuers. We wound up doing some rescuing, particularly finanacially. But, we were looking out for ourselves, as well, as we would have gone down with the ship had we not worked extra jobs to try to keep afloat.

Finally, something happens that makes you see the light. In my case, it was the discovery of infidelity, a very bright line for me where I have zero tolerance. It might be something else for someone else, like financial abuse, verbal and emotional abuse. I have too high a tolerance for those things, having been raised with them.

[BrienBear]

You see someone homeless that you want to date,

Maybe this should be red flag #1?

I know this sounds like a "duh" situation from the other point of view as well - believe me. But in this economy, its not uncommon anymore to hear sad tales. *shrugs*. Everyone knows someone or someone through someone else whos lost their job, whos gone homeless, whos this, that and the other. Or at least I have.

I'm really not known to be a rescuer. I'm just not. In fact if I AM codependent its going the complete opposite way typically. (IE I'm so independent that I refuse to allow anyone to help me, etc.)

I hate being made to feel "bad" because I tried to help someone. I think thats why I fight the codependent label so much - because I, at my core, was trying to help someone I saw needed it. Did I let myself get walked on? Yes. But according to the "definition" of codependence, that right there means I'm codependent. I just dont get how helping someone is wrong. But I maybe I'm just not looking at the big picture. To me, the help was financial. I was helping someone financially, but I took on a whole host of other issues and problems with that financial help. I didn't know that when I took it in, but... .I dunno. i"m more confused than ever. I'm going to talk to my T further. I feel more lost than I did before   ?

[oceanheart]

BrienBear, we are all the ultimate, final authority on ourselves, and only ourselves.

There is empathy, with boundaries, which is healthy interdependent relating. And then there is empathy, without boundaries - and possibly with personal motivations (even though the person may be unaware of them) - which is the hallmark of "codependent" relationships. If you don't like the word, don't use it, that's definitely your prerogative! Labels help us understand a commonality of behaviors. I don't walk around saying "I'm a person with BPD", but being diagnosed BPD helped me understand some patterns I was in and of course then helped me change those patterns once I saw how dysfunctional they were.

All I would suggest is that you take a look at the situation you were in with "fresh eyes": try reading your posts without perhaps feeling as defensive and see if there's anything there, that were you another person, might be indicative of an issue. But only you can decide this - and I'd like to point out that therapist guidance is wonderful, but again they are only there to help YOU in your self-discovery/growth/healing process.

btw, if you want to know about different flavors of CoD: this article lists a few, like denial, low self-esteem, compliance, control.

[oceanheart]

As an afterthought on "nice guys", from the very quotable - tho sometimes annoyingly over-the-top - site, Heartless hit_es International:

In the book "The Gift of Fear," Gavin DeBecker defines "niceness" as a "strategy of social interaction" and not evidence of innate goodness. So what he is saying is that being "nice" merely means your behavior is not offensive but does not mean your motives are automatically pure or good. Being a "nice guy" has been discussed elsewhere so there is no need to go into great detail here, but the bottom line is that trying to "be nice" or to use one’s social charm to achieve one’s social or sexual objectives is just as manipulative as anything else. The details are different, but what is at the core is the same.

[Skip]

I think thats why I fight the codependent label so much - because I, at my core, was trying to help someone I saw needed it. Did I let myself get walked on? Yes. But according to the "definition" of codependence, that right there means I'm codependent.

Yes.

I just dont get how helping someone is wrong.

When you help someone at your detriment, that is unhealthy behavior. 

oceanheart amke a good point too - we sometimes help others because it puts us in a superior position in our mind - helps us define our our self worth. This two can be unhealthy behavior. 

[BrienBear]

I love the heartless hit_es site.

This is going to take a crapload of self-reflection.

Sorry to the original poster for hijacking your thread :-/

Thanks all.

Is it possible to be codependent in one relationship but then not have had others either before or after that... .?

[ron7127]

Yes, but many of us were not faking being nice for manipulation, IMO. Motivation is not easily discernible. Only the individual knows what was in his/her heart. There are kind, altruistic people in the world who beleive in being good to others because it is the right thing to do.

Bottom line, if you stayed in one of these relationships too long, after tolerating a lot of abuse, you need to learn from it and avoid acting in this way in the future. You may not be co-dependent, but , merely uninformed or misguided.

I think very few of us would have stayed in so long, but for the complications attendant to marriage.

[Auspicious]

As an afterthought on "nice guys", from the very quotable - tho sometimes annoyingly over-the-top - site, Heartless hit_es International:

In the book "The Gift of Fear," Gavin DeBecker defines "niceness" as a "strategy of social interaction" and not evidence of innate goodness. So what he is saying is that being "nice" merely means your behavior is not offensive but does not mean your motives are automatically pure or good. Being a "nice guy" has been discussed elsewhere so there is no need to go into great detail here, but the bottom line is that trying to "be nice" or to use one’s social charm to achieve one’s social or sexual objectives is just as manipulative as anything else. The details are different, but what is at the core is the same.

Interesting site!

I found this especially insightful (or maybe hitting too close to home  ):

The Man With No Spine - A parable for "Nice Guys"

[ron7127]

Nice thing about having whatever issue on may have allowing a relationship with a BPD is that it is emminently fixable relatively easily, IMO. You just stop taking crap and act reasonably. Biggest factor , IMO, is losing the fear of being alone, without a relationship. Once one realizes that life goes on and can be very fulfilling without some type of romantic relationship, it frees you up to reject or bail on the messed up ones.

[BrienBear]

As an afterthought on "nice guys", from the very quotable - tho sometimes annoyingly over-the-top - site, Heartless hit_es International:

In the book "The Gift of Fear," Gavin DeBecker defines "niceness" as a "strategy of social interaction" and not evidence of innate goodness. So what he is saying is that being "nice" merely means your behavior is not offensive but does not mean your motives are automatically pure or good. Being a "nice guy" has been discussed elsewhere so there is no need to go into great detail here, but the bottom line is that trying to "be nice" or to use one’s social charm to achieve one’s social or sexual objectives is just as manipulative as anything else. The details are different, but what is at the core is the same.

Interesting site!

I found this especially insightful (or maybe hitting too close to home  ):

The Man With No Spine - A parable for "Nice Guys"

I was JUST READING THAT! Literally right after I got done I switched tabs to here and BOOM LOL

That site is amazingly hilarious - and hits the nose. Hard. LOL

[BrienBear]

Yes, but many of us were not faking being nice for manipulation, IMO. Motivation is not easily discernible. Only the individual knows what was in his/her heart. There are kind, altruistic people in the world who beleive in being good to others because it is the right thing to do.

Bottom line, if you stayed in one of these relationships too long, after tolerating a lot of abuse, you need to learn from it and avoid acting in this way in the future. You may not be co-dependent, but , merely uninformed or misguided.

I think very few of us would have stayed in so long, but for the complications attendant to marriage.

And I dont even think I stayed that long. 8 months. LOL It just left me with a deep resentment that I should have cut off at the 3 month mark... .or maybe the first day mark ! 

[Skip]

Only the individual knows what was in his/her heart.

We may not readily realize what was truly driving us.  We may be in denial.  We may just be generous.

This is why a personal inventory is so important.